Interesting Question
Posted: November 30th, 2011 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 64 Comments »PHI vs NYG.
We have a pair of underachieving teams. Both coaches are on the hot seat, to some extent. For the sake of argument, let’s say both coaches get fired. Let’s then say that both teams are interested in the same coaching candidate.
Which team does the coach choose and why?
Both are well owned and run, depends on ambition and whether you believe Ol’ Blue Eyes.
Which roster do you like better?
I like how they build/built there roster. I would hate for Eli to be ‘my guy’, that smirk would drive me crazy! But hey, I wouldn’t get the job.
It’s close, but I might want some say over young Howie. And what’s left when the ‘dream team’ leave on their 1 year contracts? It could get messy here for a year or 2.
I’d take NY I think. Wouldn’t take much to be loved by your players compared to Old Tom. I’m pretty sure a few of their fans wouldn’t mind seeing Spags again either.
The good thing is, most of those 1 year contract guys weren’t really contributing much this year anyway. I think the core of the team will still be here, with the only major guys that have a possibility of leaving being Jackson, Samuel, and Young (only because there will be questions about quality at the backup positon behind Vick). Other than that, guys like Smith and Brown won’t be missed.
Yeah a good portion of the guys we added this offseason should probably be back: Babin, Jenkins, Asomugha, DRC, Mathis.
Brown, Smith and Young will likely all walk, but they are replaceable. Young is the only one who’s done something to date that we would miss, and Kafka might be ready to be a No. 2 and/or another vet QB will be available. Dion might be ready to be the No. 2 RB as well and Cooper can definitely be the No. 4 TE.
Right now we’re looking at three draft picks in the top 40 before even doing any finagling. The big question, as a new coach assesses the roster, is will he be able to actually use those picks to address the defense rather than have the FO spin them forward to 2013.
I think it depends a little on how much autonomy said coach is offered. If you think you’re going to be “stuck” with Vick because of his contract and aren’t a believer then you’d probably lean toward New York.
I think Philly has much more interesting talent, although the Giants have a more proven franchise QB. (I want to drink Drain-o for writing that, but it’s true. Vick and Young have both looked worse than Eli this year.)
Thinking about it more, I bet a defensive-minded HC would LOVE coming into the Philly situation with this much talent at DL and CB and 3 really good draft picks to fill in the gaps on it. The offense is more or less set (assuming you like the OL and Vick, and DeSean stays workable).
I agree with the conclusion but not the reasoning. A defensive-minded HC would like to come to Philly exactly for the reason that the offense is the strength of the team–he’d then coach up the defense (ignoring for the moment whether with no Reid, and perhaps no Marty the offense stays good). I think IgglesBlog made the point (on a more micro level), that McDermott, as DC, wanted to get the most talent on the line and “coach up” the secondary which was his specialty.
Uh, sure. I still say any DC coming into a situation with our defensive line, and Nnamdi, DRC and possible Asante at CB, and no pre-existing system to break them out of is going to like a kid spending the night in FAO Schwartz. The toughest spots to fill on D have league-leading talent on the Eagles. But they’re all new to the system so you can coach them into whatever system you want to install (so long as its 4-3). And on top of that, we’re looking at a high first and two high 2nd round picks to fill the holes in the middle.
If Juan is axed, this D is going to be the best coaching opportunity in the league.
The Eagles typically structure contracts so that there is minimal cap impact down the road if you cut someone. This would the new coach the flexibility to keep/drop whichever veterans he chooses from the start, which I think would be appealing. I doubt the Giants do this as well as the Eagles.
Good question. The homer in me would say that the coach would choose the Eagles. However, these two teams are pretty close, as far as talent is concerned, with the Eagles just barely edging out the Giants in a couple of areas. Both teams have room to improve, but have potential to be top teams in the league again with a good offseason. The Eagles have the most question marks. The team could be very different next season, and there are question marks surrounding one of their star players returning, which could factor heavy into the decision. All in all, I really can’t say which team a coach would choose. He really couldn’t go wrong with either, to tell you the truth.
I think it could depend in what kind of coach, an established one could be more likely to chose us since the talent might be better. How much power you get could be deciding as well, would our next coach have as big a say as Reid?
On the note of coaching change, I trust you read Florio’s piece on Reid being “safer” because Lurie and Banner know that lots of teams would be interested in him? To me that’s stupid, you can kind of do that with a player but with a coach it’s such an important decision that you can’t take that into account
If you don’t have a strong feeling on the QB’s probably the Eagles…
Emerging stars: Nicks, Pierre-Paul vs. McCoy, Maclin… Push
Elite players that are having a bit of a down year: Nnamdi vs Tuck… Push
Players who consider themselves elite but will not be on the roster next year: Osi, Asante… Push
Elite to good vets: Peters, Cole, Jackson > Bradshaw, Rolle, Manningham
I love this question, Tommy. For me, as much as I hate to say this, the only reason it isn’t a no-brainer is Eli Manning. If I’m a coach, here’s what I get in Philly:
• An incredibly talented team – more talent than the Giants. The league’s best running back and rushing attack. Some high quality receivers (including Celek), and enough talent that I can get rid of Asante, DeSean, and Vince and still have more talent on my team than most.
o My O-line is incredible, my corners need some coaching, and my D-line is a top 3 D-line in the league. Yes, the Gints D-line may be the best in the league (at the very least, as good as ours), but their secondary isn’t as good, their rushing offense is terrible, and their linebackers are as bad as ours
o If you start trying to get rid of the turds on the Giants team, they just don’t have the talent to make up for it
• I get stuck with an albatross of a QB. It’s really hard to get rid of Vick. Fine. Take a QB in the draft and develop him. In the meantime, you still have one of the better QBs in the league starting for you, and let’s be honest, Vick would look a lot better if he wasn’t being forced to execute gameplans devised by the NFL’s equivalent of Jigsaw (bad guy from the Saw series)
o I’d rather have Eli (God I hate myself). At this stage, it looks like Eli gives his team a better chance to win than Vick does his. I’m not sure if this is definitely true, but I think for an unbiased guy not affiliated with either team, they’d have to like Eli more this year
• The opportunity to be THE story in town. I don’t want to share fans or enthusiasm with another team and definitely don’t want press on a loudmouth coach who shares my city and stadium. Sure, the Philly media (or maybe just fans) are notorious for being finicky, but I’d rather have that than be one of two football teams in a baseball town
The thing is- the Eagles are only locked into Vick for one more season- they’d take hit but not much. And they definitely can get rid of him after two.
So a coach coming in can use Vick to try to win now, but draft a franchise QB to develop behind him. And then in two years, jettison Vick.
Would we not look at coughlin and they at reid?
That’s where I thought the post was originally heading.
Depends on the coach I guess. Gruden, in the past, has just about popped a tent over the thought of running the Eagles offense.
On the other hand, a coach like Spags would probably take the Giants based on past success and familiarity with more of the players.
I was going to make a similar point using Cowher/Jeff Fisher (i.e. if you like running and defense, you pick NYG) and Gruden.
My thought though is that if you were looking for stability, you can’t get much more stable than the Eagles have been. But the Giants really are one of the best front offices around too so probably …
the coaching candidate plays both front offices against each other to get the deal/autonomy he really wants.
almost every coach in the world thinks he can win if he only has the “talent”. they pick the eagles becasue of the upside of the talent.
Running coaches would love shady, passing coaches will love our WR, defensive coaches, well they will think, Oh an offense that can put up 20+ i’ll win every game
Also there is some talent to work with on defense, the cupboard is not bare there.
Tough one…
I’ll have a go at it from the offensive perspective.
At the skill positions, I’d say it’s pretty even right now. Eli is a more traditional QB and coaching Vick, who’s a little older than Manning, could be daunting considering his more unorthodox style leads to more injuries. As a new coach I’d rather have Manning and rest comfortably knowing he’s probably going to be there for all 16 games. But LeSean McCoy is a much better RB than anything the Giants have and he’s young with a bright future, so that negates the Giant’s advantage at QB. With DeSean Jackson’s contract situation, you could probably say the receivers are a wash.
But I’m choosing the Eagles because there is one area where they completely outshine the New York Giants: the offensive line. I’m a new coach and new coaches can get fired quickly if they don’t win right away. Taking on the Giants could mean an offensive line rebuilding project that might take years. And you sure aren’t going to win many admirers among the fans if your first draft picks are all offensive line. The Eagles offense is ready out of the box and I only need to tweak it a little to become a powerhouse.
Been waiting for someone to talk about the OL.
Great point. re: the OL but also which team is built to win right away *and* for the long haul. The Eagles rebuilt everything, from the secondary to the kicking game. If you believe this team only needs a new coaching personality on defense and a few linebackers, we have the picks to address that and the roster to be successful right away and into the future.
This really sets up for a new coach to look like a miracle worker. Takes this talent that Andy couldn’t win with, then has full offseason to implement his stuff with a super bowl-quality roster but the tempered expectations of a crap season, both publically and within the team (so the new message will resonate).
When you also consider that plenty of coaches have the book on Andy and Marty but it could take a half season or a full season to figure out how to stop the ways a new offensive genius deploys McCoy, Vick, Maclin, et. al., the coaching change becomes more palatable to me.
I just wanted to compare some numbers quickly between Coughlin and AR and I thought it turned out to be interesting. I’m not sure there are any strong conclusions to be made, but here are the numbers.
Since Coughlin came to the Giants in 2004, The Giant’s record has been 71-52. The Eagles record during that time… 71-51-1. Also during that time, the Giants have won 4 playoff games including a superbowl (all 4 came during that season) while the Eagles have won 5 (and lost a superbowl). The one major difference outside of superbowl wins has been the fact that the Eagles have made the playoffs 5 times, and 3 times in the last 3 years, while the Giants have only made it to the playoffs 3 times, and no playoff appearances in the last 3 years.
Giants have the grand prize, but Eagles have been more consistent.
Thing that bugs me about Coughlin is the late season meltdowns. Still haven’t figured that one out completely.
I think one thing is for sure. If coughlin ever came to philly we wouldnt be asking why our star running back who lead the league in rushing yards at one point, didnt get enough touches in a game where you want to “limit” a teams best players time on the field.
Truth.
Got that right.
Smash-cut to Dan Snyder: “Whoa, whoa, whoa! Let’s not forget the other floundering team in the NFCE. I’ll give you double what they’re paying in Philly and New York, and you’ll only have to actually coach for two out of your contract’s five years! But that won’t happen this time. I swear, I’m taking my bi-polar meds now.”
Washington’s Pros:
-Owner willing to spend any amount (picks or cash).
-Blank canvas. What head coaching candidate wants to be saddled down with things like a “franchise quarterback” or a “Pro-bowl running back” or “wide receivers with discernible skills”???
-I believe Nostradamus predicted that racial slurs as sports team names would make a big comeback in 2012.
-Something about guys wearing dresses with pig noses…. or something.
Washington’s Cons:
Nothing comes to mind.
Simply brilliant.
That’s awesome. Suddenly, I feel a lot better.
Eagles. Younger roster. Better players. 10 draft picks. No SB, meaning that if you win, you’re a legend for life.
By the way, if Andy and Tommy get canned, Shanny’s the most tenured coach in the division. Ew.
New York has more established talent on defense. New York also has a legit. franchise pocket-passer QB and not just an injury-prone athletic marvel.
I think any coach, given the chance, would choose to coach the Giants over the Eagles.
That defense is bottom 10 in rushing yards, passing yards, total yards, and points allowed.
Leave your facts out of this, blog boy!!!
I think Morton forgot to mention his great plan of trading all of the Giants first rounders for the next 35 years for Sean Lee and Navarro Bowman.
No way do I see Giants as a clear cut favorite over the Eagles. If nothing else, the decision would be a bit tougher as both teams have some quality talent. One thing to take into consideration as well, like Jimmy said early is the youth of the Eagles team. Not to mention that the Giant’s D hasn’t been as good as it used to be, and they’re O-line is ancient.
The Eagles. We only have a QB for another year (Vick’s 2013 salary is at fish-or-cut-bait levels) so the new coach can draft a QB and effectively be given the default 4 year grace period to develop his new QB. Plus, the Eagles have great talent at DL, RB, and the secondary, and they have decent WRs and OL. The Eagles are not missing many pieces.
That having been said, firing Reid would be a mistake, even if the Eagles finish with losses. As I said before, Reid’s 90th percentile – replacing him is almost guaranteed to be a downgrade.
Reid absolutely has a ceiling. There is no doubt in my mind that we’d be a solid 9 – 11 win team every season with maybe 1 or 2 playoff wins in most years going forward with Reid. Who wants winning consistency and no Super Bowl? I’d gladly take the higher upside, bigger downside risk of a new coach.
Peyton Manning also had a “ceiling” right up until the Colts won the Super Bowl, and suddenly all the short-sighted analysts finally acknowledge that he’s a great QB now that he’s won a Super Bowl (an interesting side note here is that Peyton played awful in that Super Bowl, but since his team won now he’s great).
If Donovan hadn’t decided to throw 4 interceptions in the Super Bowl (one was called back b/c the Patriots barely held LJ Smith away from the play), then suddenly Reid’s a genius.
By the way, Cowher also had a ceiling. For years and years.
I agree. This team obviously needs something. A new HC is (in my opinion) not the answer. From the OC/DC on down however… let the games begin. With the exceptions of Washburn, Mudd and Eugene Chung of course….
Take the bigger underachievers (Eagles were defending division champs that seemingly added pro bowl caliber players; Giants missed the playoffs and did little in the offseason), and get them to play to their potential and you look like a genius–Eagles all the way.
Tommy, what do you know about the Jags’ DC, Mel Tucker? Assuming he is cut loose after a new coach comes in, he seems like he knows how to coach up a good defense based on the Jags stats this year. Could he be the one we’re looking for. Seems like a similar situation to Perry Fewell after he was interim coach for the Bills, did a good job but got let go, and then has done a nice job with the Giants since replacing Spags.
Having thought this out and deleting my post a couple of times, I think you go with the Eagles. Right now, and I mean next year, Philly is in better position with its roster. We are loaded. Young skill positions, solid offensive line, and loaded on talent on Defense. Yes, the defense looks terrible at times, but I blame the coaching more than anything. I don’t think the players are being used properly. And I mostly mean the secondary. Philly does need some work, with DeSean’s contract situation and the complete lack of talent in the Linebacker corps, but look at the ammunition you have for trading. Lots of draft picks and you can still tag DeSean and trade him for something…if nothing else, you can try your hand at drafting.
I will say that I believe the Gmen have a better front office. If I were building from the draft, I want Jerry Reese making my decisions. This might be looking at his resume with Lombardi colored glasses, but I think he’s a solid drafter. Moreso than Roseman.
I honestly think that the homer side of me is pushing me to the Philly side of this decision, but I’m going to stick with it. If I could mix and match aspects from both teams to make a perfect situation, I would, but clearly you can’t do that…except in Madden.
I know that DeSean has had an off year, but he’s been a huge part of this team up to this point. Hopefully some type of middle ground can be worked out here, because when he is gone, that changes the whole offense, not to mention his punt return ability. There is no reason to expect/want Steve Smith back, so getting DeSean locked up will be important. He’s a bit of a bonehead at times, but he is a difference maker, and a home-grown player. Basically, the WR position is not really something that needs to be touched. The middle of the defense on the other hand…
Who knew that Dunta Robinson hit from last year would end up screwing our ’11 season?
I’m totally fine getting rid of DeSean Jackson – he’s blown all his goodwill. And I’d really, really love to see what happens when we get a physically gifted BIG WR. Bigger target, tougher, and more capable of fighting for balls (on that last one, it’s tough to compare with DJax – he’s never attempted to fight for balls at any point in his career).
Can we please just copy and paste these comments when we get to the point in the year where people start bashing Howie Roseman again… o wait…. that never stopped.
If I was looking at it as a non-fan I’d say:
New York.
Bigger Market. Super Bowl winning QB (even if I feel he’s medicore)….and no Joe Banner. No friend of the owner hanging over my head.
I’d have a chance at having more power, with a team that has a QB we “know” can win or be a part of a Super Bowl winning team.
Hate to say it, but it’s NYG for me.
Thinking about this, I realize that I would rather not work under Joe Banner if I could help it. I have a couple of concerns about this guy:
1. The firing of Jason Licht. From what I understand, this was essentially the result of a power struggle between Banner and Licht. Licht is an established personnel guy whose career profile includes working for the Patriots under Scott Pioli. Roseman was unproven in a personnel role while Licht was around. That Banner would get Licht fired to clear a path for Roseman to potentially succeed Heckert makes me think that he is capable of pushing a personal agenda that may not necessarily be best for the team (even though he might deny that and even believe that he is doing what is best for the organization).
2. The handling of DeSean Jackson. Okay, Jackson is very immature in the way he performs on the field. However, this doesn’t take away the fact that the Eagles paid a ton of money to free agents who haven’t contributed anything to the team prior to this season (and some may argue that we are still waiting for a contribution from some of them). Compound this situation with the fact that contract talks didn’t even begin with Jackson while this was going on, and you are sending a message that you don’t really value the contributions of an active, and seriously underpaid, player. If I were a coach, I would worry about how the front office would treat players I value. I certainly wouldn’t want them to alienate anyone I would want to contribute for a long time.
As Zachary mentioned, Banner is Lurie’s friend, meaning that he is essentially immune from getting fired. As a result, he can do whatever he wants which could be detrimental to the team. I’d rather work in an organization where everyone is accountable for their actions. I’m guessing the Giants are like that.
The Roseman issue is a good point, but I think it depends on how you look at it. The Eagles are also great at keeping players signed affordably and staying under the cap. The reputation they have around the league (from what you hear about personnel people talking about them) is certainly not negative. But there might be an impression there that turn individual coaches off.
Thorin,
You do bring up a great point about the cap management, and I guess I hadn’t thought of it that way. But I also wonder if there is or ever has been a player that Reid wanted, that Banner either pissed off, or wouldn’t make a fair offer to.
I also think they have questionable talent evaluation. I think a large part of that is on Andy himself, but I wonder what makes Roseman qualified…and againif I was a coach, Joe and I guess to a extent Howie, would scare me off.
Anyone thinking that tomorrow could be a revenge game for Tapp?
What about Chris Clemons and Anthony Hargrove?
Even Earl Thomas, who was maybe expecting to go to the Eagles and be treated like Dawkins, and instead got sent to the city where sports goes to die.
Also true… I was psyched about Clemons, but his play came up like lemons as an Eagle.
who’s paying more?
I don’t think they will be going for the same coaches. With the Eagles, the team is wide open. You can draft a QB if you want(most new coaches do) or build a rushing offense around McCoy and that great OL, that gone be around for at least 3 years. You can even let DeSean. You can do anything you want with the defense, but you will have some great players to build around. You can also keep Vick and run a variation of the current offense, with Maclin, DeSean & McCoy.
In New York, you’ll have your QB, so you better like him. You have a good set of RBs, but can you really build an offense on Bradshaw & Jacobs like you can with All Day, Forte or LeSean McCoy? You basically have to push that OL short term, unless you want to explain to the fans that rebuilding takes time, while Manning gets older. That DL is special. You can’t really change that at this point without changing all the players, and again, were back at telling the fans to be patient while the Jets steal the headlines.
I think, that in Philly you will be the coach for a long time, trying to build a dynasty. In New York, you’ll try to push the team over the top to get a ring or two before Eli and his buddies run out and it’s rebuilding time. I see Giants going with a big name like Gruden or Fisher and the Eagles going after an NFL coordinator or a college stud. I don’t know about college coaches, but to me i see us going after Zimmer(that Tommy mention), Chuck Pagano maybe even a guy like Brian Daboll, Gregg Williams or even try to get Perry Fewell or Rob Ryan from the rivals.
Offensive coach – eagles
defensive coach – giants
Again – more talented defense – Eagles. They’re not that far away from the Giants in a lot of rankings and they’ve accomplished that with an offensive line coach running the show. New coaches absolutely have to be salivating at what the Eagles have been able to accomplish despite its coaching idiocies in the past.
I don’t think was brought up, but the most IMPORTANT factor has been neglected. Salary and consequently, term.
The team that offers the most money generally gets their guy.
Hey Tommy,
this is unrelated to the topic but I just thought you’d like to add this analysis from PFF to your Derek Landri scrapbook:
One area of the Eagles team that isn’t playing like they are 4-7 is the defensive line. Of the players who have played 100 snaps or more, the lowest graded player is Trevor Laws (+0.8). The headline grabbers are Trent Cole (+22.5) and Jason Babin (+12.3) and for good reason, they have combined for 15 sacks, 17 hits and 55 pressures. Elsewhere on the line, Cullen Jenkins has the third-highest pass rush grade among defensive tackles. But as good as those three are as pass rushers, nobody on the Eagles’ defense can touch what Derek Landri has done against the run on such few snaps. His +7.3 grade in that regard rivals the cumulative run D grade for the remainder of the Eagles’ defense (+7.7).
[…] […]
For the record, I’d pick the Giants. I don’t want to work under Howie Roseman, or even rely on him for talent. If a Banner-independent GM were possible, that may change.
I guess it primarily would depend on the autonomy and power I would have to re-shape the team. But that being equal, I would take the Giants job. It’s New York. It’s a bigger stage.