Misc Senior Bowl Stuff
Posted: January 24th, 2012 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 70 Comments »Forgot to mention yesterday who all I saw here.
Howie Roseman
Louis Riddick (didn’t actually see him, but heard he was present)
Brett Veach
Phil Savage
Marty M.
Juan
Howard Mudd
Eugene Chung (future OL coach)
Mike Zordich
Jim Washburn (telling stories to group of people)
I’m sure all of the assistants are here, but only wanted to make note of the ones I specifically saw.
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I don’t think I mentioned George Iloka yesterday. 6’4, 222. Safety. I’d have some interest in adding a guy like that to the mix. I want us to add someone that we don’t have. That means a big guy … or great athlete. Iloka is big, but also runs pretty well. Need to watch a lot of tape on him.
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The Eagles top pick has come from the Senior Bowl a lot.
2011 – Danny Watkins
2010 – Brandon Graham
2008 – Trevor Laws
2007 – Kevin Kolb (and remember that we wanted Brandon Meriweather, another Sr Bowler)
2006 – Brodrick Bunkley
2005 – Mike Patterson
Based on that record, it would seem likely that I’m watching someone who will be our top pick. The problem is that I’m not sure which of these guys fits us at #15. I’m betting we go with a Junior this year.
Devon Still is sitting out the game. Reportedly it was strictly choice. I don’t like that at all. Really wish he was down here competing. PSU guys too often struggle going from the comfort zone of Happy Valley to the NFL.
I’m off to go watch the fellas play some more.
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MAQB is posted here. Be sure to check out Gimpy’s work.
I put up some general Senior Bowl notes here.
Roster management: Does it make sense to add another Safety?
We have 3 guys for two spots (Coleman, Allen, Jarrett). Anderson, if recovered from the torn ACL, is our ST guy. Adding another top 100 pick means we’re keeping 5 S. We historically keep 5 DBs and 10 DL. We’ have to go light at LB…a position many of us want to carpet bomb and oversaturate to bring more talent, not less.
Drafting a guy in the 6th or 7th round does not preclude him from being a PS guy.
And it doesn’t preclude him from being a starter on D, especially when we talk about LB’s…
That thought crossed my mind as I typed that. haha
Or QB. You know, that Brady guy.
One word, competition. It makes sense to add another safety if he looks like he’d be better athlete than any of the safties already on the roster. Can’t hurt to add talent that could beat out someone. Considering the up and down play of the Eagles safeties in 2011, I don’t anyone has their roster spot locked up.
Anderson is a quality special teams player, but 1, counting on him coming back full strength after a torn ACL is a bit of a longshot, and 2, even though he is definitely a quality STs player, if there is a guy that you can bring in to improve the safety position, I think it makes sense to do that over keeping a special teams player. I’m not saying there necessarily is such a guy, but Anderson is certainly not a lock to make the team.
I read that Still has a toe injury and that’s keeping him out. Of course, he may have concocted that story
Bo and Adam gave you a shout out on their report! Woot woot.
I’m thinking that the emergence of athletic TEs will mean that guys like Keenan Clayton, George Iloke, Kenny Tate will be much valuable to roster than in the past. Traditionally these guys are too big to play safety and too small to be an every-down LB. With personnel groupings begin what they are no, guys like this can be extremely valuable. The defenses “answer” to the bionic TE…
The safety I’m interested in is Markelle Martin from Ok.St. I’d like to give Nate Allen a little competition if a decent looking safety prospect fell late into the 2nd or 3rd.
So at what point does someone in the Eagles organization realize that perhaps their drafting strategy of targeting almost exclusively Senior Bowl participants with high picks needs revising?
Trevor Laws, Kevin Kolb, Brandon Graham, Danny Watkins, Brodrick Bunkley, Mike Patterson… that’s not exactly a stellar list of names right there.
The New York Giants, on the other hand, are adept at thinking “outside the box” with their draft choices and do not restrict themselves to players who participate in a January scrimmage full of older four-year players , and instead are willing to gamble on more physically talented underclassmen. The Giants are also seeking to win their second Super Bowl in five years while the Eagles sit out of the playoffs.
I’ll ring them and let them know you’re on your way.
Morton,
I appreciate your post (at least to shake things up ones in a while) but don’t you ever get tired of being negative? Are you this negative in all aspects in life? Or is it just the Eagles that brings you pain and displeasure?
The fact that you use Mike Patterson in your example shows how little you understand about the draft process.
I actually agree with Morton here.
All of the players on that list were first or second round picks, and the only player who has turned into an above-average player for us is Mike Patterson. That’s pathetic. (And don’t say Kolb may turn out to be a stud – we traded him because Reid and Marty concluded he wouldn’t be as good as Vick, who himself is not yet elite). Watkins and Graham get another year because of youth and injury but still, that is an awful track record for our high round Senior Bowl picks.
I don’t completely disagree with you, but you can’t ignore the fact that Kolb did have significant value. We did get a 2nd round pick and DRC. So while he may never be a stud, in terms of the Eagles point of view, he provided value.
Considering the small sample size, it might be possible that the Eagles just ended up liking players who were in the senior bowl because they thought they were the right players, not because they decided they were only going to draft a player from the senior bowl first. Of course I can’t read the minds of people I’ve never met like you can, so take what I’m saying with a grain of salt.
Your post has me thinking of a meta-question (maybe Tommy might have some insight) of whether, and if so why, the Eagles may have a preferrence for using high picks on Senior bowl participants (is it a combination that senior bowl participants perform better in NFL compared with similarly drafted underclassmen and/or seniors are more mature/easily acclimated to NFL?). I think there has to be some underpinnings to Eagles drafting philosophy.
J-Mac was an underclassmen when he came out as was D-Jax, so neither were at the Senior Bowl. But I agree somewhat with Morton, I think the Gnots have done a better job getting talent at critical areas (defense line, wide receiver) of their team (I have not been able to reconcile the fact that the Eagles brain trust passed on the athletic J. Pierre-Paul for the undersized overachiever Graham).
You know that the Giants best WR is a UDFA? that means all 32 teams passed on him 7 times each.
Since when is Graham undersized? You know Graham produced for 3 years in college while JPP only had one good year. Do you also know that Graham had a better rookie year then JPP?
I don’t know if Cruz is the Gnots best WR, I think Nicks and Cruz are like a 1a and 1b.
Ummm, Graham has been undersized for awhile, and I don’t think it’s off base to label him as such (and I didn’t even mention “short armed”?!?!?),
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=pfwl&cp=25&gs_id=21&xhr=t&q=brandon+graham+undersized&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&safe=active&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=brandon+graham+undersized&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=efa00aecbf552382&biw=1280&bih=585&safe=on
I was aware of Graham’s college career at Michigan (I work with a fanatic Michigan alum). JPP came to late to football, and played 2 years of JuCo ball (both very productive) before transferring to USF. I do not think there is a measurable difference between Graham’s and JPP’s rookie seasons. If you really want to argue the fine points, JPP probably had the better statistical season by having 1.5 more sacks and 6 passes defended to 0.
Still saying that the Giants have drafted better over the last few years isnt really pushing it.
“2011 – Danny Watkins
2010 – Brandon Graham
2008 – Trevor Laws
2007 – Kevin Kolb (and remember that we wanted Brandon Meriweather, another Sr Bowler)
2006 – Brodrick Bunkley
2005 – Mike Patterson”
I guess this means no Luechly or RGIII 🙁
Missing: 2009 – Jeremy Maclin. There’s hope.
And the fact that 2 of those years don’t even have a first round pick.
Trevor Laws was picked just slightly ahead of DeSean… they could have easily flip flopped those guys.
At this point I think you can call Bunk a bust (though he played well in Denver) and Trevor Laws. Other than that I think the list is flawed/unfinished.
Just my opinion. (and I put it down here to keep it away from that knob polishing fool morton)
I think as the 14th pick, Bunk did not live up to expectation, i.e. Corey Simon II
Bunk did what he as asked and did it really really well. He just couldnt adapt going from 2gap to 1 gap, but when he played 2gap in denver again, he was the best run stopping DT this year.
That’s right, a great 2 down lineman. They (2-down players) by definition are not really worth the 14th pick.
We all agree that Trent Cole is a great 3 down lineman right? He still only played around 2/3 of the defensive snaps this year. So even elite players on the defensive line only play betwen 2/3 to 4/5 of the snaps.
This year, but up to this year he played a ton because his play on all 3 downs warranted it. A new scheme this year has helped Cole and helped cut his snap count (as did a high ankle sprain). The same 1-gap scheme meant the end for Bunk despite the vast majority saying he would be a hand in glove fit.
I expect the Eagles to draft Luke Kuechly Rd1. I think the prospects they are watching at Senior Bowl are: Brandon Thompson (DT), Rd2; Lavonte David (OLB) Rd2; Bobby Wagner (OLB) Rd2. I think they are also watching WRs with Rd2/R3 potential.
Which one of the players at the senior bowl, would you think the Eagles would pick in the 1st or 2nd round?
DE C. Coples
DE M. Ingram
OLB Z. Brown
WR D. Jones
OT M. Adams
That statistic you’ve shown almost guarantees that we pick one of these guys. Crazy! Out of that bunch, I want Coples!
Funny how Jeremy Maclin, our top pick from 2009, was probably the best turnout of any of our 1st overall picks in that time span. I don’t think Shady played in the Senior Bowl either. Not trying to connect it to anything, just an interesting observation.
Patterson and Bunkley have turned out nice aswell (in 2008 they was one of the best DT tandems in the NFL)
I keep seeing that list of guys who we drafted from the senior bowl … it’s not exactly our greatest hits, is it? I’m still hoping Watkins and Graham come together, and I’m not knocking Patterson. But as much as we first-pick guys from the senior bowl, they’re not blossoming into big stars. LeSean, DeSean, Maclin, those guys don’t seem to have played in it.
It kind of looks to me like our trend of first-picking from the senior bowl is a sign of weakness.
I see I’m not the only one wondering baout this.
And oh Christ, I agreed with Morton.
My reaction as well.
That’s OK, two links ago Morton laid down a definitive argument on why it doesn’t make any sense to fire Andy Reid.
All of them were at least Juniors so could not participate, and the Eagles do and have take Juniors high or in the first round too, remember in date order, Freddie Mitchell, Lito Shepperd and Shawn Andrews?
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/24/if-buying-nfl-jerseys-before-april-buyer-beware/
Perhaps we’ll have some wild variation of the Kelly Greens?
I hope they don’t make them as ugly as the one in the picture
Morton called and told Devon Stills to sit out…wants him to be fresh for when the Eagles pick him over the “BUST” Luke Kuleuchy.
I’m interested to see how Patrick Edwards (WR-Houston) does running routes, since he played in a spread offense. I think he’s a guy that’s going to get drafted in a mid or later round and really impress at the NFL level if he gets the opportunity.
For those interested, Big Ten Network will be broadcasting the memorial service for Joe Paterno live on Thursday at 2pm EST. Tickets for the memorial service at the Bryce Jordan Center, which were provided free, appeared briefly today on Ebay and Craigslist. Students and fans quickly bid up the Ebay listings to ridiculous proportion ($25K and up), catching the attention of company management that removed them. Craigslist has also removed ticket listings. Both companies have policies prohibiting selling tickets to events obtained for free.
A private viewing for current players and coaching staff was held this morning, and is now open to the public. Many former Penn State players have been spotted waiting on line. For those that wish to attend, it is on campus at the Pasquerilla Spiritual Center (near the Forum building and Palmer art museum). Hours are 1pm-11pm today, and 8am-Noon Wednesday.
The funeral procession Wednesday afternoon will depart the Spiritual Center at 3:00pm, drive northeast on Curtin Road past East Halls and Beaver Stadium, turn right on Porter Road, and finally right on College Avenue proceeding West through downtown State College. The burial will be private.
Jim,
Thanks for posting. Wish I could be watching this.
I posted a few nuggets on Twitter. Not sure I’ll have time to get a full post up before heading out for the South practice.
https://twitter.com/#!/lawlornfl
I likely won’t have time to really jump in the discussion about drafting Senior Bowl guys until I get home. Interesting topic. Some hits, some misses.
Scott Wright reports that Eric Dellerata from Pewter Report overheard Eagles’ scouts really eyeing up Mike Adams.
He’s talented, but way too inconsistent. Being compared to Nate Solder.
Thats fine he can sit a year or two.
If we can take him in the 2nd round, I wouldnt mind him. I think Mudd would be able to coach him up and with Peter and Herramans, we dont need to rush his development
To D3FB and A.J., normally that would be fine. But these aren’t normal times. Reid is on his way out very shortly. He doesn’t have the luxury of sitting on of his top 2 picks–assuming Adams even slides to the 2nd–for a year or two. They need impact players who are going to see the field instantly if Reid is going to hope to save his job. We can’t be stuck with another Jarrett/Marsh situation this year where both guys get a few reps toward the end of the year and we are still left wondering whether or not they can play a year later.
I’d much rather them select 2 LBs, a CB, a DL, or athletic TE/WR because those spots they can get players on the field instantly if they are NFL ready. That’s not really the case anywhere else on the roster, imo
What impact would a DL, CB or TE make on the Eagles roster? Agree with 2 LBs in the first 2 rounds, but we could go LB, OL, LB and if we trade Asante we can even trade up if needed.
I think they could easily incorporate a DL in passing situations. Parker and Laws are expendable, and Hunt isn’t a guarantee. I think they could easily find someone who could challenge for playing time with Tapp/Landri/Dixon. The way Washburn likes to use DL, there is a lot of flexibility and substitution. That’s not the case for the OL
Assuming Asante is gone, we are in desperate need of good 3rd CB. Actually, even with Asante we don’t have a good slot CB. That’s a position that is on the field for far more defensive snaps than in years past. They may like Marsh/Hughes, but they didn’t like them enough see significant playing time.
The one thing the Eagles do no possess on offense that other elite offenses do is a real match-up problem. All of the eagles weapons can be taken out of game relatively easily. They have a number of very good players, but no one player that is a nightmare. The Grahams, Gronks, Finley’s of the world would make an impact on any roster, not just the Eagles.
You know Hunt and Landri played really really well? You reason to drafting a DL is to add depth, same reason I think we could use a draft pick on a lineman.
We got NA, DRC and Marsh for the outside and only have Hughes right now for the slot, but CB is still a position where rookies often struggle (all 3 star CBs from the 2011 struggled alot).
Is there an impact TE like that in the 2nd round and Celek is also creating good nightmare options for LBs/safeties.
Yes, Landri played well, but let’s hold off on Hunt until we see him in more than one game. He’s an UFA. If there is someone who’s a high talent prospect in your lap, you don’t not take him because your UFA played ok in one game. I reason to add DL because that’s a position where 8 guys typically see the field in any given game, meaning you actually have a chance to have an impact on the game rather than not dressing, which is what an OL will do.
Marsh was a project 3rd rounder who saw pretty much only special teams action. Hughes played a little more in the final two games, but in the same situation. If you don’t think they can find a CB in the first two rounds who can challenge either of those two for playing time, then we have no hope in the scouting department.
What position is a position where rookies don’t struggle? Running back is about the only place you readily see guys stepping in immediately and succeeding across the board. I’d rather have a rookie playing and struggling, than one sitting the bench and not know if he’s any good for another in the future.
I don’t know if there is an impact TE like that. Celek is a fine player, but no one is worrying about him. You worry about Jimmy Graham, Gates, Gronkowski, Jermichael Finley, Jason Witten. Celek is a cut below that level.
The reason to take an OL is because our 3 best players are going to be on the wrong side of 30 next year. So you never know when guys that age are just going to drop off a cliff. The only real needs we have are SAM, MIKE, Slot CB, and possibly WR. I’m sure at least one or two of those are addressed in FA. Once all those needs have been addressed all picks after that are either for depth or are luxury picks.
As far as needing to draft a corner early, Richard Sherman was probably the best rookie CB who was pick 154 in the fifth round. This years corner class is probably even deeper. There are players projected in rounds 3,4,5 that are probably see significant playing time this year.
I’m pretty sure TEs are going to be ruthlessly over drafted this year because everybody wants their own personal Gronk or Graham. No need to get caught up in a run and reach badly on somebody that is a luxury pick.
As I said before, normally I’d agree with you, but I don’t think Reid has the luxury of worrying about what the team will look like in three years. I think he knows next year will need to be a big year, otherwise he’s out.
If they address all of the major needs in FA, then I’d have no problem with Oline help.
One guy who was the best CB in one year doesn’t really tell me much. There are plenty of other examples where the best guys are the top guys. It’s difficult no matter how you slice it.
I’m not suggesting reaching on anyone, but if there is someone who is a worthy prospect at that position, imo, it’s more worth it to this team and Reid right now than an Olineman, that’s all
The Eagles are a very talented team outside of LB, so outside addressing that, every position will just be for depth.
If you look at o-line depth, who do we have outside of Vandervel? So drafting an worthy o-line in 2nd round is that far fetched (Seems Mike Adams is projected to the late 1st round now, so no way he would fall out of the 1st round as OTs always go very fast)
Sure, that’s generally true, but it doesn’t change the fact that for a coaching staff with what seems to be a short horizon should be more inclined to “add depth” at a position where that player has a high likelihood of seeing the field. That’s really all I’m saying
We have too many CB already (Hanson, Hughes, Lindley, Marsh, DRC and N.A.) The best slot corner, like a SAM, you get around the 4th rd. The 2nd rd you get starters like Sheldon Brown, DJax and McCoy. They need a legitimate sized WR if they want TD’s. Our starters are more likely to get a concusion than power through a S or CB for a TD; or lack the hight if they want to catch and hold onto it in the endzone. Every team has at least 1 starter over 6′ and 200#’s; more like 6’2″-6’5″, 215-230 with a little bit of muscles, or else not many RZ TD’s. They need a MIKE with exp. when you use the “wide-nine” not 2 LB’s with 0yrs. exp., 2 with 1yr, 1 with 2 yrs and Akeem Jordan like this past yr; or….you saw the results. Michael Floyd would allow Vick to throw the ball in a couple seconds rather than hold on to it trying to see when/if DJAX is open then decide what to do. And a TE like Fleener from Stanford runs Pro-style routes, leads college TE’s with 10 TD’s, avgs. 20.3 YPC would definitely change an L to a W on Sunday’s(a necessity not a luxury).
Fleener does nothing that Celek cant. He’s not a dynamic athlete. Brents routes are cleaner because he has been running them in the NFL with 3 different starting QBs of varying caliber, not Andrew Luck throwing to him.
per the CBs: what we don’t have are enough “quality” CBs. Hanson doesn’t do it for me and not many people based on comments. Lindley was cut and only recently re-signed after no one else in the league signed him. Not really a ringing endorsement of getting on the field. Hughes are Marsh are still developmental as neither saw significant action in games that mattered, outside of special teams. I don’t necessarily agree that slot corners have to be found in mid-rounds given the propensity with which teams use 3 and 4 WRs sets. The slot corner is rapidly becoming a key piece of your team, imo. I’d rather get ahead of that curve, rather than play catch-up.
Per the LBs: I’d rather have to 2 LBs make mistakes because they are young rather than make mistakes because of a lack of talent. That’s just me.
We agree on WRs and TEs.
You make some really good points. I’m with you on DL help, I’m hopeful that the Eagles add a big (as in tall 6’4″, 6’5″ type), penetrating DT that has the length/wingspan to disrupt passing lanes. I think having a lineman that has the ability to penetrate/generate a rush up the middle would make a huge impact on the defense.
LB is also a primary need, unfortunately I’m not confident the Eagles would be successful in coaching up 2 rookie LBs in the wide-9 scheme. Reading the transcript of the Roseman interview today, http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/inq-eagles/Roseman-on-Eagles-Were-not-there.html
and prior statements by Castillo on how he and the defensive coaches were learning the defense during the season indicate to me the Eagles did a bad job at their due diligence last year. I don’t think they adequately prepared the team (both coaching staff and personnel wise) for the transition to the new defensive scheme. I’m a corp. atty and due diligence is extremely important in making decisions. The Eagles had one defensive coach that had coached in the wide-9, so the DC, LB and DB coaches all had to learn from Washburn (you can probably add the scouts to the list too), and it sounds like they’re still learning. A vet LB that has played in the scheme or could pick it up quickly, and a high-grade LB draft pick (no more small fastballs or pedigree reaches) are probably a better course.
Tommy has already written extensively on getting an upgrade on the slot corner position. No disagreement there. I’d also like to see them add some competition at the safety spot.
But you’re spot on that the Eagles need players that have a high probability of getting on the field an making an impact next season.
Adding a DT would be a waste of pick then, as DTs rarely make an impact in there first season, unless they are talented like Suh (and he even had a so-so year this year). If you want fast impact players you find em at LB, RB and o-line.
The simplicity of Washburn’s system, I think, aids a rookie DT, or a FA coming from another system. 1-gap and get up the field.
While everything is pointing towards LB as a 1st round pick, I wouldn’t be surprised if Andy took a DT at #15 if they sign a FA MLB. They’ve done stranger things in the past.
The only thing that would shock me would be taking a RB, OL, or DE with the 15th pick.
Name 5 very good/elite DTs
AJ there have plenty of early selection DTs that had impressive rookie seasons why don’t you look up Kevin Williams, Haloti Ngata, BJ Raji, John Henderson and Tommie Harris (just to name a few). And no, they are not all Suh either.
Most of these coming out of college was great college players and was taken early in the draft. So for the Eagles to draft an impact DT, they would need to use there 1st round pick
Tommy, I can’t get Twitter feeds so I don’t know if you commented there, but I’m wondering if, at events like the Senior Bowl, you hang out with Howie and others from the Eagles organization? They must know of you, from this blog and/or from your work on PE.com. Do they consult with you informally or anything like that? Do they at least acknowledge this blog gives us a chance to vent and, therefore, keeps the Huns from the front door of NovaCare?!