Let’s Talk Luke & Poe
Posted: February 28th, 2012 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 72 Comments »We hoped Luke Kuechly would run a 4.65 at the Combine so the Eagles could have him as an option at MLB in case things didn’t work out in free agency. Luke did not disappoint.
Kuechly ran 4.58. He also did really well in the other tests. He showed upper body strength (27 reps), lower body strength (38 VJ, 10’3 BJ), and agility (6.89 in the 3-cone). Wow and wow. That is good stuff.
The bad news is that a team ahead of the Eagles who had passive interest could now decide Luke is worth a pick in the 10-15 range. As good as he is, I just can’t see him going higher than 10. MLB just isn’t the kind of impact position to warrant a pick in that range. Heck, some people aren’t sure it’s worthy of a pick in the 11-20 range. I do think that the right combination of need and player can be good value there.
I don’t think the Eagles can safely target Luke as the solution at MLB. It is possible now that he goes before 15. Could you deal up for him? Yeah, but again…is MLB worth those kind of resources? No.
It is possible the Eagles could go sign someone like David Hawthorne in FA. He has played WLB and MLB for Seattle. You could then turn around and add Luke at 15 and then figure out the best way to use them. Maybe Luke is SAM. Maybe Hawthorne is. Both guys are best suited for MLB, but the Eagles system calls for MLB and SAM to both line up on the inside so this isn’t a normal situation.
That would be a lot of resources at LB. It would be very surprising to see the Eagles do something like that, but maybe after the problems of 2011 they would be willing to roll the dice on that scenario in an effort to significantly upgrade LB. I don’t think it is likely. I do think Howie and Andy at least have to consider their options at this point. Luke goes from just filling a need at 15 to now maybe being a player you genuinely want.
The other good news is that Mychal Kendricks had such a strong workout. Should the Eagles miss on FA MLBs, they can go into the draft knowing that it isn’t Luke or bust. Kendricks has the talent and athleticism to step on the field right away. He had the best workout of any LB at the Combine. He was also the Pac-12 Defensive Player of the Year.
The Eagles have some real good options at this point.
Fletcher Cox is my primary target at pick 15. Luke Kuechly is #2 (although he remains my favorite player in the draft).
I’ve written a lot about Cox so I’ll skip saying too much about him. I just think he would be an ideal fit in the 1-gap system and playing for a guy like Jim Washburn.
I do need to say a few things about DT Dontari Poe. He is 6’4, 346. He is fast and agile. Shockingly so for a man his size. He is a once in a lifetime kind of physical freak. You just don’t see guys that big who aren’t fat and who can do what he does. That is all natural.
I’m sure Washburn is incredibly fascinated with Poe. Is he willing to push for him at pick 15? That’s the huge question. Poe could be a guy that kills reputations. Those who pass on him might regret it. Those who take him might just feel the same way.
One thing I think people have to understand. Poe is not a physically dominant player. Haloti Ngata ate up triple teams in college. Poe was single-blocked by C-USA guys on a regular basis. Yes, Poe has amazingly unique skills. Physically dominating the man across from him isn’t one of them.
A DL coach like Jim Washburn could change that. He could put his foot up Poe’s backside and challenge his manhood. Jim would keep pushing buttons until something clicked and Poe either lived up to his talent or become completely exposed as a huge wuss. And that is a realistic possibility. When a guy of his size/skill set doesn’t dominate lesser competition, that is a serious issue.
Poe is athletic enough to play NT, UT, and even DE for us. Yes…DE. He played LDE at Memphis in some 3-man sets and looked comfortable in space. You don’t want him way out wide on a regular basis, but could mix him in there to create some matchups.
Poe is NOT a run stuffer. He might develop into one, but for now he would be a DT that fires upfield and tries to be disruptive. Most guys his size aren’t like that. Poe could be like Haloti Ngata or even Pat Williams if things worked out for him. I don’t know if the Eagles will pull the trigger, if Poe even gets to 15, but you can bet there will be serious discussions about him.
* * * * *
NFL Gimpy posted his MAQB column yesterday.
I posted a review of the DL/LBs.
It seems that this draft has more depth to it than the last few years, or maybe that is only the case at some of our positions of need (LB, DL, WR), so the question is when we went into the draft wanting Nicks, we got Maclin (who slid alarmingly), so who is going to slide down to our reach at 11-14, that should be a top ten pick, in any other draft, that makes Andy pull the trigger on him?
As much as I love the hype around Cox and Luke, there must be other players, that will slide into our reach, that can contribute far more to this team and help take it to the next level.
So if you could Tommy, please name your man who is worth a small upwards trade when he drops down the draft list. Thanks very much
I’ve thought long and hard about that question. Not sure there is an answer.
Assuming we address MLB in FA and either re-sign DJax or add a WR…there won’t be any holes in the starting lineup. You’re looking for depth and/or talent upgrades.
Top 10 type players:
QB A Luck
QB RG3
QB Ryan Tannehill
WR Justin Blackmon
LT Matt Kalil
RB Trent Richardson
DE Quinton Coples
DE Melvin Ingram
CB Morris Claiborne
CB Dre Kirkpatrick
Claiborne is interesting, but would be a slot for us. Not sure he’s great value in there. Blackmon isn’t likely because we’ll have Maclin at one WR and a pricey player at the other spot.
There just isn’t a guy I see as a target to move up for…that will impact 2012.
Why can’t Coples be that guy?
Trade up for a DE who isn’t a great fit when we’ve already got a pair of DEs that are good starters? I’m fascinated by Coples size, but unless we knew he’d embrace lots of DT snaps, I don’t see him as a target.
Cox is a great fit. He’s of special interest because he should be on the board at 15 so you’re not using multiple resources to get him.
You really think that if Blackmon slides out of the top 10 the Eagles wouldn’t grab him?
Then again… what if, miracle of miracles… Cox and LK are on the board at 15. Is this draft so deep with talent that you trade back just to pick up more ammo?
Any chance we trade Djax and our late 2nd to get back into the 1st round with a NE pick?
You can’t just say “Let’s move up for Blackmon”.
1st Rd pick for Maclin
Big money for DeSean. If not, I’ll assume we’re spending big money for his replacement.
Can you turn around and spend another key resource on a WR that isn’t a RS? Maybe, but I don’t think so.
If the Eagles let DJax walk and add someone like Plax who is a starter/backup tweener…then Blackmon could absolutely be a target.
Sorry… I definitely neglected to mention the fact that I am assuming the team is moving on without Djax this year whether they get a pick in a trade or just let him walk. My gut instinct tells me that if he is an Eagle in 2012 it’s going to be way more bust than boom… so I guess that’s where that assumption comes from, obviously I have no idea what will really happen.
Another fun scenario based on your top 10:
Ingram and Cox available at 15? (though I don’t expect Ingram to fall that far)
personally I’d be popping some Dom with a:
3-Long Scenario: Babin-Ingram-Jenkins-Cole
or
1-10 Scenario: Cox-Patt-Jenins-Cole
Can we call it a push and say we would had a solid foundation w either player for the next 5+ years?
TLaw, you’re right on Poe. I couldn’t believe his combine results for a guy his size. I saw something on NFLN that stated Poe was the 3rd or 4th heaviest prospect in Combine history. Amazingly Poe carries 346 lbs well and is not fat in the mold of T. Cody, can you imagine what his playing weight would be? Would coaches want him at 340-350lbs or have him lose 10-15 lbs?
PFT had a link to article where an Oline coach from an opposing college team said Poe takes off more plays than usual, and you have to wonder with all of the athleticism why Poe didn’t dominate (he was only 2nd-Team all conference??). I think some of that has to rest on the coaches (as well that they only get 20hrs/week with the players). Washburn is a great dline coach and I think he could light a fire in Poe, similar to the situation with a young Al Haynesworth when he started out. Ironically, Haynesworth was drafted at pick #15 (was the 4th DT taken) in the 2002 draft by the Titans.
It took Washburn five years and a contract year to get Fat Albert to play close to his talent, Washburn isn’t interested in going through that again.
“Devon Still – Up and down. Ran a 5.08, which sounds fine for a big DT, but it isn’t when you compare it to the guys he’s fighting for draft position with. They were sub-5.00 and as big or bigger. Had a VJ of 29.5, which is good. Didn’t do the 3-cone or SS. That bugs me. Very mixed in the positional drills. Poor effort and technique in one bag drill. Again, that bugs me. Not a bad player by any stretch. Problem is I’m trying to compare him to guys who had good days. He didn’t. He’s not helping himself.”
Maybe it’s just because I focus on Penn St. more, but it seems lately their defensive linemen just don’t test very well and come up small in big games. And they really haven’t had a true impact player since Brown (in college). Maybin was more a situational guy that got too much hype and Odrick never wow’d me consistently in games either. I just don’t have a lot of faith in Still going forward. Somewhere in the last couple of years, Paterno/Bradley were not getting the linemen they used to.
PSU does a good job with developing college D-linemen. Still was an excellent college player. Jordan Hill is good. Jared Odrick was very good. They’ve had a slew of good pass rushers.
PSU isn’t recruiting stud athletes and developing them into NFL players. There is a difference.
That’s probably the difference in continual 9-3 seasons and not 11-1 and competing for national titles.
Plus, either not recruiting top tier QBs or not developing them when they get there. Thanks, Jay!
Tommy,
I recall you had posted some info on Demario Davis (LB Ark St) awhile back. It looks like he had a good showing at the combine (32 BP, 38.5″ VJ, 10’04” BJ. 4.28 SS). Being from Ark St, I had him as a late round possibilty, but after yesterday I think he helped himself. You have any new thoughts on him?
Good workout. Could go as early as the 4th round. If the Eagles add a veteran MLB in FA, Davis would make a good mid-round target for depth.
I’m still saying we need to draft Danny Coale, dammit.
If we want a young downfield receiver, sure. If we want size/toughness, you’re out of luck.
FINE! What about his teammate Boykin, then? He’s big and tough and has hands that could palm a watermelon.
UDFA type. Poor Combine. Does have his moments on tape. Just not good enough to overcome his limitations.
Coale is quality target. Just not sure about fit.
I know you’re joking about your Hokies, but one thing to keep in mind is that there will be some very good WRs in the 6th and 7th round this year. Don’t know who yet, but there are a lot of good WRs and not all will go in the Top 150.
I love Keshawn Martin and BJ Cunningham. Outstanding college players. At least one of them is likely to slide.
Can’t just throw me a bone, can you?
Look, I figure WR might be my best shot at getting a Hokie on the team this year. I’m still smarting over Macho Harris getting cut. I guess Vick should be enough for me, though.
But I SWEAR, if Tapp doesn’t stick I’m going to sit out the 1st quarter of the preseason.
Jayron Hosley could be a target.
Marcus Vick is available … oh wait, scratch that.
Tommy – Assuming they sign a FA MLB (Lofton/Hawthorne) Do you see them possibly trading back into the 20’s picking up another pick or two and taking Zack Brown to play SAM? Rolle/Lofton-Hawthorn/Brown would be a heck of a combo….We all know the Eagles love to trade back!!! Juan has to be drooling over a 240LB backer that runs sub 4.5 40’s….They could then look to add Jason Jones and Landri in FA to our DT rotation.
one final question…birds need a big bodied WR…I think it’s time to look to upgrade Avant or at least bring in someone to push him for the 3rd WR spot….What are your thought’s on Plax vs Sanu vs Hill? If we hold onto Desean and have Machlin on the other side, do you see the birds looking to go big in the slot like the Saints do with Colston?
Do we really need to upgrade Avant? I think if we had a quality big WR for the redzone and either re-sign DJax or replace him we are pretty good there.
Do we NEED to upgrade Avant… absolutely not. He is certainly a solid player. However, he is no longer in the conversation as top slot WR in the league. He is absolutely a guy you can upgrade (and I’m not talking about upgrading by adding a #1 WR, I’m talking about upgrading a slot WR). As Tommy said, if we pick up a MLB and a starting WR, our starting spots are all filled, so the next spots you look to upgrade are positions where a player has a chance to get on the field such as slot WR or nickel corner. If the right guy is available in the middle of the draft, I definitely would strongly consider going after him to challenge Avant.
Don’t “need” to upgrade Avant, but it would be nice. Love him, but he is a limited guy. Not a RS. Not fast enough to be a spot starter. Not big enough to be major RZ help. Just a really good 3rd down guy. That’s valuable, but could be upgraded.
I see both of your points. I would definitely love a RS slot receiver that has a chance to be a future or spot starter.
If the Eagles like Zach Brown, trading back is the way to go get him. Not worth #15. I have no idea if they like Brown right now. I don’t get the feeling that he’s a key target, but I don’t know that for a fact. UNC players did not have a strong overall showing at the Combine. They have prima donna reputations right now and that may turn off the Eagles.
I do expect the Eagles to add a big receiver, either through the draft or FA. Could be a big guy like Plax or a big/fast guy like Vincent Jackson/Stephen Hill. Gotta see what happens with DJax.
Yup. And March 13 cannot get here soon enough.
I agree that Luke Kuechly improved his stock. Last week he was a pure football player who delivers despite his limited athleticism. Today he is a pure football player AND an elite athlete. Not only did he compete in every drill when so many others hid from exposing their weakness on a level playing field, he was a top performer in every category! This should end all debate over whether the Eagles SHOULD draft him at 15. If he is there, he is the pick.
If he is gone, then Poe and Cox and Brockers and Floyd or DeCastro are all worthy prospects to discuss – as would trading back. But how do you ignore your biggest need at the position with the least depth? No matter what we do in FA, we need to draft the best LBs we can.
The one set back against the Eagles drafting LK… he has no injury history. What’s up with that? Gotta have at least one busted knee to get drafted by the Birds.
So at this point I think *everyone* is in agreement that the pick at #15 has to be either a MLB like Kuechly or a the best DT/DE available, whether that’s Fletcher Cox, Devon Still, Dontari Poe, or Quinton Coples, or someone else in that class.
Some may disagree whether the emphasis going into this draft should be placed on targeting the MLB or the DL, but I think we all agree that it should be one or the other, no?
Now that we have established that, it basically makes it a lock that the Eagles will make a pick completely out of left field that we didn’t expect at all, like say, picking a RB like Lamarr Miller with the #15 pick, which Howie and Andy wil rationalize as an insurance policy in case negotiations with Drew Rosenhaus re: LeSean McCoy’s contract go south.
Or they’ll make Brandon Weeden or Ryan Tannehill the pick at #15, rationalizing it away as their displeasure with Vick’s progress.
Morton:
What makes you think the Eagles will draft anyone in Round 1? Hell, if the Eagles trade the pick, they could get at least another 2nd rounder, probably a 4th or 5th, plus a 1st next year. That’s two extra guys to bring to camp over the next couple years.
As much as I like the idea of trading back and getting more ammo for this year and next… One of the patterns that has seemingly developed over the years is that the Eagles try to draft for value.
It seems highly likely that the Eagles will have a number of players they consider worthy of pick #15 this year.
WR is possible depending on what happens with DJax/FA.
But you’re right…should be LB/DT/WR.
“Now that we have established that, it basically makes it a lock that the Eagles will make a pick completely out of left field that we didn’t expect at all”
Damn, Morton makes another good point. This is getting to be a habit.
T-LAW:
A couple questions.
First, I read your SNB summary on Bruce Irvin — kind of deflating given his speed and length. I’m curious about one thing. You indicated that he didn’t “stand out in movement” and may just be a straightline-speed guy. At the Combine, though, Irvin posted great numbers on the 3-cone drill, 20-yard shuttle, and did a 10.25′ broad jump.
What I don’t know is Irvin’s 10-yard split.
QUESTION: Can you elaborate just a bit more on Irvin — because this kid seems like he can add weight to his frame and still the tall, lean type of pass-rusher Washburn loves.
_________________
Second, the Rams seem just about out of patience with OT Jason Smith, former No. 2 overall pick in 2009. (I think, since the draft, he’s had some injuries and concussions — and trouble at LT so he ended up at RT.)
QUESTION: Put your “I’m Howie Roseman Hat on” [you look marvelous] . . . and tell us whether you think the Eagles should make a play for Smith. Yes, the Eagles’ O-line graded out very well. But Smith was touted as hugely talented O-lineman just 3 years ago. And he’d be an upgrade — talent-wise — over the “King” and Justice, both of whom may be gone this off season.
Relatedly . . . do you see Rams restructuring his rookie contract (which is from the “insane” ear), cutting him loose entirely, or shopping him around? If you the Eagles, what round draft pick would you trade for him, assuming you can get his deal restructured?
At this point, I think he’s in Robert Gallery territory. He may need to take a shot at RG and see how he does there.
I’ve never been impressed by Jason Smith in the NFL. Add that to his concussion situation and I’d avoid him. I’d rather have Howard Mudd spend his time developing players that I think can be here for the next few years, waiting to replace Jason/Todd when that day comes.
I need to take good notes on Irvin before discussing him at length.
Tomas, Tony Pauline’s only criticism of LK’s Combine was his slow COD. Is that something you, or anybody else here, noticed?
Tommy,
Can you talk Kuechly vs. Kendricks as far as tape goes? Both looked very athletic in Indy but I’m curious how they stack up on film.
Since there’s debate (here, and I assume in Novacare) over taking a MLB at #15, would we be better served going with Cox at #15 and then picking up Kendricks with the second 2? In other words, how much of a “drop off” do you feel Kendricks is from LK?
Also – since FA ties into all of this – I wonder if signing London Fletcher as a stop-gap as someone suggested on here is a good call. That way we’re covered if we miss on a top MLB, but no so heavily invested that we can’t draft one high.
Is Cox value at 15? Wilkenson went at 29 (ish) last year and could be considered a similar player.
Hmm, I can’t speak to Cox’s specific value with any degree of expertise, but I would think he’s better value than Kuechly at least from an upside/positional standpoint.
Perhaps I was being too specific with Cox but my point/question is if a DT/WR/DE provides more value than Kuechly at 15, would “settling” for Kendricks in the 2nd be a better option than taking Luke in the 1st and then “settling” for lesser guys at DT/WR/DE in the 2nd.
M Wilkerson was 6’4, 315. Ran 4.96. More of a run stuffer.
Cox is 6’4, 298. Ran 4.79. Very good athlete. Looked dominant at times while playing top shelf competition.
I don’t know how the DTs will be valued. I think Cox would be such a good fit in the Eagles system that he should be worth 15. He really seems like a Washburn player.
In my world the Eagles can get Keuchly and then trade back into the first and get Cox.
Kuechly is better than Kendricks. Luke is a tackle machine. Mychal is more of a playmaker. He was allowed to blitz more and be an attacking LB. I really value Luke’s instincts. Huge factor at MLB.
Both players could play in our system.
Cox at 15 and then Kendricks in the 2nd has to be one plan being kicked around by the Eagles. Good players, good fit.
I’m all for adding London Fletcher. Love that guy. Would be great to see him in green punishing offensive players.
Tommy
Do you think the Eagles value Kendricks enough to let him start at MLB as opposed to signing a FA MLB? Or is he brought in for depth behind a FA MLB? Do you think with his speed he could push Rolle for the WIL spot? And you havent mentioned Keenan Robinson in a while….do you think he still a target in the 3rd for the birds to play SAM?
Word is that Poe took A LOT of plays off. We don’t want that type of player.
Poe is a buyer beware guy. You do wonder if Jim Washburn could bring out the best in him.
Tommy, I gotta know. Bart Scott wants to be traded. If he’s willing to restructure his deal, would he work in our system? Tell me what to think.
Old. Why sign someone expensive and declining rapidly when you can draft a Kennan Robinson type for a quarter of the pay and has a much higher upside. Bart is better suited for a 3-4 ILB. I wouldn’t be suprised if he reunited with Ray Ray in Baltimore. They are disappointed in McClains play next to ray.
If Scott didn’t like only plays 2 downs in New York, I guess he wouldn’t accept the same here. I just love his intensity and swagger so much, I wish there was a way to sneak him in.
No interest. Old, slow. Needs to be in 3-4.
Thanks for getting back to me. Maybe we can just hire him as a motivational speaker?
He is a fiery guy. That can be good and bad. Love listening to him on Jim Rome’s show. Bart tells good stories and you can sense his competitive spirit. We could use some of that.
Can’t wait!
http://youtu.be/QJshw2Axsqc
Sorry. Had to do it.
I usually think stuff like this is stupid, but I love that sound bite. If anyone says the words “can’t wait” I automatically think of Bart Scott.
CAN’T WAIT!
Tommy, I love your columns and I love the idea of Fletcher Cox at 15; you do great stuff. I hope the Eags staff listen to what you say. But, got to say I am hating the stuff that the Philly media and you are saying about availabiltiy of FA LBs. NOTHING GOOD IS AVAILABLE!!! Let’s get that through our F-N thick skulls and things will move ahead better because of that!!! So, Eagles go ahead and draft Kuechly at 15, or they better move up and get someone early in 2nd round; EVEN IF THEY HAVE TO DRAFT ABOVE VALUE!!! This is ALL about NEED and nothing about value. If it was about value, then the Eagles ought to have better backups. But, guess what, THEY DONT!!!!! So, they got to draft on NEED and not on value.. If they can somehow find a vet that has worth then fine. But, scraping off the scum level does not fit the bill and it will not suffice for next year. Draft Kuechly and end the pain….
Yours Sincerely,
River
I DON’T WANT STEVEN TULLOCH!! I DONT’ WANT CURTIS LOFTON!!! I WANT 1ST ROUND PICK ON LB!! I WANT THE EAGLES TO RATE LB LIKE OTHER TEAMS!!! I WANT DOMINANT SIZABLE DEFENSE LIKE THE GIANTS WHO WIN SUPER BOWLS!!! I WANT KICK ASS DEFENSE!!!! I WANT BULK AND BEEF AND I DON’T WANT ‘FASTBALLS’!!! IF I HEAR THE WORD ‘FASTBALLS’ USED IN CONJUNCTION WITH NFL DEFENSE AGAIN, I WANT SHOTGUN TO STOP THE PERSON THAT USED THE WORD ‘FASTBALLS’!!!
GET THE MESSAGE. LIVE IT, LOVE IT, USE IT, BIG, BUXOM, PHYSICAL, 250+ STOP THE MADNESS…..
SIGNED PHILLY PHAN….
I want a pony
“I had a Pony!” -Old Lady from an episode of Seinfeld
Who figures an immigrant’s going to have a pony?
I want normal font!
FYI…Tulluch and Lofton are better then anything the giants have at LB. Lofton is a beast….top 5 MLB in the NFL. The giants won because of their D Line and QB and the fact they got hot at the right time….Philly’s defense is as good if not better on PAPER then the giants…just couldn’t bring it all together.
“Buxom?” Does Christina Hendricks play LB?
Levon Kirkland, is that you?
The Giants’ linebackers are generally mediocre; they’re not significantly better than ours.
Why does Wolfe get no love?
Good size 6’5 295, equal to Cox, great measurables, again, equal to Cox, great production as a senior and good years before (not as many big plays, but lots of solo tackles, evidence of an active DT).
Didn’t shine at the S-B b/c they played him out of position at DE.
What more does the kid have to do?
Not saying he’s 1st rd talent, but I’m starting to think he’s legitimate 2nd round.
I’m a big Derek Wolfe fan. I’ve been writing about him since the Fall. I have him slated for the 3rd round. He might have some character issues for teams to get comfortable with.
I think he would be an ideal fit for Washburn’s system. If we go away from DT in the 1st, I’d love to add Wolfe.
Tommy, what do you think of Ron Brooks? He played in the slot at LSU Based on nfl.com ratings of him. They said He was a good tackler and good in space. Possible late round slot target?
I’ll be watching tape of Brooks. Tried to last week, but he was the #4 CB in the game I watched and wasn’t on the field that much. I’ve got basically all of LSU’s games on hand to watch so I’ll figure him out.
RE: RGIII
If we start hearing that some teams’ medical staffs have a concern about RGIII previously reconstructed knee (can’t remember if right or left) . . . then I’d say the Eagles and ‘Phins are trying to get in the hunt.