Some QB Talk
Posted: February 2nd, 2012 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 106 Comments »For SB Nation Philly, I wrote about the Eagles QB situation. Are the Eagles good enough at QB? We’ve all had that thought cross our minds. Michael Vick was great in 2010, but not so much last year. Which version will we get in 2012? We’re making a Super Bowl run based more on Vick than Juan Castillo, MLB, or anything Andy Reid does. The Giants and Patriots have had horrible defensive play this year, but they’re in the big game because their QBs came through in clutch situations. (and they got very big STs blunders by the opposition – not that I’m bitter)
Check out the column and then fire off your comments/questions.
Here’s one oddball scenario that popped through my head. What would you do if Mark Sanchez is available ? Let’s say the Jets go sign Peyton Manning. They might feel keeping Sanchez as a backup in a locker room where there are some issues is a bad thing. Plus, he’s due big money this year. Cutting him would cost $5M on the Cap, but keeping him would be more like $14M.
If cut, is this a guy worth going after? I’m far from his biggest fan, but the guy didn’t have a good OL this year and the offense wasn’t well run. He does have talent. He has won in the playoffs. He’s still young and has upside. I hate the GQ ads and that type stuff, but maybe getting cut would be the humble pie he needs to re-focus and become a more driven player.
Just a thought.
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For PE.com, I wrote about the coaching announcements. I also put up some Senior Bowl stuff that could be of interest.
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Matt Alkire posted the first mock draft of the year over at ScoutsNotebook. Morton will be happy. I find the lack of aging Canadian players to be troublesome.
Totally off-topic here:
LeSean McCoy is getting some national mediative with his FedEx Award, and I’m getting blown away. He seems like a great guy. Motivated, smart and a guy id much rather pay a huge check and build the offense around.
Absolutely. We must get him signed to an extension. Great player and seems like a heckuva guy.
Agree totally. Why on Earth is this guy signed with Drew Rosenhouse? I forgave the TO thing as a freak situation caused by a freak client, but situations just seem to go sour whenever he’s involved. I feel like the Eagles would be a better team if this guy … you know … disappeared somewhere in Jersey. Perhaps while visiting a waste management facility, you know? 😉
Now that’s funny.
Fuggedaboudit
Didn’t Shady hire, fire, and then re-hire Rosenhouse?
I don’t really see that as the sign of weakness some do. He was free, tested the water and went back to the devil. Where’s he gonna go if he leaves again? He obviously didn’t like the other options.
That all just makes the bond stronger.
Why must we sign McCoy to a extension? You are scared about giving a extension to a tiny WR – but want to lock up a RB who takes a beating (like all RB’s) long term? I love Shady, I love watching Shady, I think he’s a great football player, but at the end of the day – he plays the easiest position to replace, and will cost way to much to extend long term.
Great player who is a great fit. Those are the guys you keep.
I totally agree about RBs being easy to replace. That’s why losing Duce Staley didn’t kill me. He was replaceable. Shady is a different story. I think it is worth paying him big bucks.
Also, RBs usually stay healthy through their first extensions. They wear down fast, but not that fast. I think it’s the second extension where you really have to weigh that in the value.
Also, in lieu of Vick being Vick this year (although that might be Vick!) and DeSean being DeSean, LeSean WAS our offense this year.
Decent signing bonus with guaranteed $$ front-loaded in the first 2 yrs….its the Banner way!
I feel like we felt that way about Westy and he was Phased out almost instantly…
For how well the offensive line was touted this year, Shady made them look way better than they were. His reverses and stop-on-a-dime plays made something out of nothing.
The flip side is there were plenty of times where McCoy didn’t follow the blocks, went for a cut back and was stuffed.
This happened less as the year progress, I suspect it may have been a symptom of the scheme not matching McCoy’s instincts.
Personally, I’d rather build the offense around a elite QB.
Obviously we’d all love to have The Guy at QB. We thought Vick was him after last year. Now we’re unsure. Gotta see how this works out in 2012.
T-LAW . . .
You’re the best. Eagle fans are lucky that you stumbled into the world of Buddy Ryan, oh, so many years ago.
I cannot wait for FA….its going to tell a lot about the Eagles drafting plans…..
I have somewhat moved on from Desean, but my gut tells me Andy is too much in love with him to let him walk. Plus, an incentive based contract would really motivate him. Like I have said before, I would really like them to look to upgrade Avant. Trotter would have no problems guarding him!! I love the guy, great hands, but just is not a threat at all. We need a Cruz/Welker type. Quick, turn 10 yard passes into 50 yard gains. (Joe Adams) I would also like the Eagles to look to upgrade Riley Cooper. I am a fan of Marvin McNutt.
Tommy – If the Eagles get a MLB and Jason Jones in FA, do you think they trade back from 15 to grab a few picks and take a LB like Zack Brown, or DE like Curry/Ingram? Well…I guess to answer my whole question, it depends on Desean. If they let him go, I guess WR makes sense at 15. (Kendall Wright please!!) I would love Machlin/Wright/Adams/McNutt/Player to be named. Please tell me this year the Chad Hall experiment is over!?!? He is not, nor never will be Wes Welker.
The key is getting a MLB. If that doesn’t work out, you have to focus on Kuechly (who says he is now 6’2, 241). If you get a MLB, you can draft the Best Player Available. That could be a WR, DT, or even a LB. Right now I don’t like the guys who I think will be on the board at 15. I’d look at moving up or back. Going for Justin Blackmon or Quinton Coples would be interesting. Moving back could also make sense. Maybe Zach Brown is good value at 25.
I disagree – it all comes down to DeSean. Without DeSean we just don’t have a real threat in the passing game (sorry I don’t buy Maclin as a star/#1). DeSean doesn’t give us a prototpyical #1, but if he’s kept, we have that threat, that thing to make defenses think twice…
MLB will be ignored again, that’s my bet. Why would Reid all of a sudden switch philosophies, espically when he’s becomnig more and more right. This is a passing league. The best teams in the league are passing teams. Stopping the pass is what the game is all about and your boy Luke or some Free Agent LB won’t do that.
DeSean is likely gone. The Eagles will try to add someone in FA and I’m betting they add someone in the draft as well.
This isn’t about a #1 WR. This is about the need to have a better set of WRs. Even if DeSean stays, we need some help.
If they let Desean walk, would you rather they went after a FA WR, or used their #1 on a Kendall Wright and a 2nd on Joe Adams. They now have two guys that can return kicks and 2 explosive receivers.
Being a deep threat doesn’t mean your a number 1 WR…Maclin is a better receiver than DeSean..DeSean is more of a playmaker…Give Jackson speed of Larry Fitz and you have a bum…Larry isn’t fast but still is a monster…Larry is 6-3 but thats not the reason he’s a beast. Cuz if that were the case, every tall receiver would be good and thats false.
I’m not making DeSean out to be more than he is, but give me the choice of a vertical threat/decoy or Maclin, and I take option A.
No Way they ignore MLB…it was clearly our BIGGEST hole. I am not saying they will sign Curtis Lofton, but at this point Jamar Chaney is not the answer…I would even be satisfied if they bought Tulluch, who had a down year, but is still a clear upgrade over Chaney/Matthews. I am not sold on Devon Still….Dominant at times, but it seemed like he disappeard against powerful running teams like Wisconsin. I’d rather sign a Jason Jones in FA, that has done well in the Wide-9.
I thought as you do that Still had problems against OSU and Wisconsin, but the more I think about it; especially after the bowl game, that Still just wore down by the end of the year. I think the guy was just exhausted.
That’s why I think it was important for us to see him in the Senior Bowl or whatever to gauge how he is with a little bit of rest. Too bad that didn’t happen.
You mean like when WR’s were our huge glarring hole for 3 years?
Look Reid and Co. jst don’t value LB’s as far as I can tell – count me as surpised if they do spend/draft with their first rounder a Mike.
What is your opinion of McNutt as a 3/4 round pick? Upgrade on Cooper?
I don’t think the Eagles are good enough at QB, but after the way Sanchez melted down at the end of the season (with the playoffs fully on the line) that just looks like another Vince Young situation to me. Not to mention, Philly doesn’t have the arts scene to satisfy his love of show tunes.
I’d like to see a the Eagles bring in a veteran in the game manager mold, or rnd 2-3 draft pick to push Kafka.
Yeah, I agree that backup QB would be better addressed in FA than the draft. I’d be happy with AJ but I’d bet they could do for Jason Campbell what they couldn’t for Vince Young.
I like Campbell too. He always played well on crappy Skins teams and although I didn’t see any of his raider games, he was always spoken well of in the press.
Why we won’t win a SB until Vick and DeSean are gone…
If Vick had the speed of Drew Brees, it’s very hard to imagine where he would be right now…
Same goes with DeSean. If he didn’t have elite speed, and had the speed of Jason Avant or Larry Fitzgerald, he probably wouldn’t ever have played a sport…
With all that being said, I know some of you are going to say “Oh but some receivers are only good because of their height”, or “You can say that about a lot of players, some are only good because of one great attribute”.
My point is that Vick is the starting QB of our team and DeSean is listed as our #1 WR…
Two starters that if you take away their speed, they probably wouldn’t be in the NFL…
Hear me out…Do you really think we can win with Vick and DeSean?
QB Superbowl winners in the past 5+ years:
Big Ben
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Eli Manning
Drew Brees
Aaron Rodgers
Every single QB in that list is a better OVERALL QB…Vick might have a better deep ball then most of those QB’s but he isn’t more accurate than any of them. Don’t try to say he is, because that’s just a lie.
Eli was young when he won but he had Plaxico in his prime, Jacobs when he wasn’t a complete bum, and a good defense (Mainly Great Pass Rush) like he has this year…
Big Ben had a premier defense, good RB’s, Hines Ward when he still had gas.
Tom Brady is Tom Brady. Maybe the best QB to ever play, and their defense has always been good. Even this year with their lack of personnel, they still are getting it done.
Peyton is also a top QB to ever play. Harrison-Wayne-Clark…Along with a good OLine, and Edgerrin James and Joseph Addai (when he was young and wasn’t hurt). He also had/has a defense that was alright and with Defensive Ends that are beasts.
Drew Brees, again, is also another great QB…Don’t remember much about that year but their defense was good. That’s when Sharper had his last monster year, when Vilma, Will Smith and some other key parts of the defense was younger. Had a pretty balanced receiving corps. Kind of what they have now. They had/have a player that can stretch field, big receiver, speedy Reggie, I forget their other RB but I think he was good, etc.
Aaron Rodgers is arguably the best QB in the NFL right now and will be for many more years. His defense last year was great towards the end and has Jenning-Driver-Nelson-Jones.
RECAP: All of those QB’s are TRUE passing QB’s..Only Ben and Rodgers are athletic but both are great when it comes to the word QUARTERBACK…
All of those QB’s had good defense’s for the most part, and with the exception of Tom Brady, all had better overall number 1 Wideouts. Hines Ward back in 06 and 09 is a better than DeSean. Jennings is better than DeSean. Harrison and Wayne are better than DeSean. Plaxico back in 08 was better than DeSean. Marques Colston is better than DeSean.
Don’t deny one bit of it…None of those players were/could last with DeSean in a marathon…But yet they’re all better Wide Receivers…
DeSean is a better playmaker than those WR’s but isn’t close to being a better WIDE RECEIVER than them.
My point is that while speed kills, we need a true #1 WR…All of those teams won with a true receiver and didn’t need a speedy WR to win it.
Back to Vick.
Vick is also a better playmaker than QB…Like I said, if Vick had a average QB’s speed, he probably wouldn’t have made it to the NFL or even College Football..
He had one good year…In 2010…But he faded at the end of that year….Something most people forget…He also had a terrible season this year…He was hurt many games which is bad too. He threw many terrible throws and picks. Also he’s been in Philly for 3 going to 4 seasons and he has been in the league for a decade…He is 31 years old. Do you really think a full offseason is going to turn him into a more accurate passer? Because that’s his problem…He’s always had the rocket arm. But he’s never had accuracy and that will stay true forever.
Also that 2010 season where he did a lot of great things…Have any of you guys ever thought that maybe that was a fluke season? I don’t mean that we won’t ever see him do those kinds of things ever again but YOU DO REALIZE WHEN YOUR TRYING TO PROVE PEOPLE WRONG, YOU’RE GOING TO PLAY BETTER, RIGHT?
I love DeSean and Vick, don’t get me wrong but we just won’t win a SB with them.
We have a good chance at winning many games during the season and poss. 1 playoff game but they won’t get us to the ultimate goal.
UNLESS, our defense becomes one of the leagues premier defenses…
Maybe we can win with Vick if we get rid of DeSean and add a complete WR…
Have a speedy guy that can play a role on the team but not be the team’s primary offense..Then we will be dangerous in different ways and that’s what wins SB’s..That and good defense.
KEY POINT: Our starting QB and #1 WR are better playmakers than they’re at their position…
Think about it.
I can’t stress enough the importance this offseason has for Vick. One way to improve as a passer is by getting reps in the mini-camps and passing camps. Timing is crucial. Precise reps are crucial. Vick needs as much work as possible.
Yeah that will help but to an extent. But Vick hasn’t shown consistent accuracy in his entire career, so I find it hard to believe a full offseason will do that. I hope because I think he’s a great PLAYER, but great QUARTERBACK? I don’t know…
They need to sit his a$$ in front of a movie screen and show him every defense/blitz he would see…and tell him to identify what to do on each play, who is his hot read. I would start with the corner blitz, since he never seems to see that coming?!?!? Do this over and over and over.
Vick can throw a ball now, let’s not stereotype him as Atlanta Mike Vick or anything. Give him an off season with those two TEs and hopefully a new slot receiver (and a proper strength and conditionin program) and see if he can do it next year. 2010 was remarkable, 2011 disappointing, now let’s cut down the turnovers and see if he has the right stuff or not.
One myth about Vick is it’s all about his legs, which was true in Atlanta, and to some extent in 2010, but not the last 4 games of 2011. He’s a work in progress, and still learning how to play QB (yes he played 6 years but only 1700 pass attempts in Atlanta, Eli had that many attempts after 4 years in NY, took it up a notch his fifth season, up another notch his 7th season).
Vick has the physical tools to be a top pocket QB, except for height, and that’s a matter of learning how to slide in the pocket and find passing lanes, use pump fakes to keep DL from timing your passes, and use your eyes to look off safeties.
Vick has a GREAT arm, one of the strongest in the league, his release was timed as faster than Brees, as a pure passer he’s just fine, far more accurate than McNabb.
What Vick lacks are reps in the pocket, he never got the coaching (and lack the motivation and maturity to accept coaching) at VT and Atlanta. The last three years he’s been in a crash course how to play QB. 2012 is when we find out if he’s a star pupil or the class dunce.
i agree with most of what u say. its hard to judge where they would be because they have always relied on their speed so didnt have to perfect other aspects of their game.
i am def worried that vick is not the guy to take us to the SB. obvioulsy anything can happen in a one game tourny but all in all i agree that we need a top 5 D in order to win a SB with Vick. i also agree that we need a complete WR to help Vick.
Bottom line is Vick will be the qb for the forseeable future and we need to build to help him win the SB. that means top 5 D and good WR’s. the oline seems good to me. just remember this, alex smith almost made a SB. so a top 5 D can make a huge differnce.
an issue with vick sometimes is the way he moves in the pocket. he seems like he never wants to step up, its always run outside. the OT will be pushing the DE past vick and vick will decide to run into the DE instead of stepping up and allowing the DE to go by him.
Rotoworld is suggesting that the Cardinals might go after Peyton, in which case they could release Kolb and his big contract.
http://rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/0/Football-Headlines
If Kolb hits the street, I’m certainly interested, but I could see Seattle grabbing him. Pete Carroll was hot on his trail. Thinks he’d fit in well up there. And Kolb does want to play.
Imagine if Kolb returns and Vick’s injured (not unlikely).
Kolb recaptures the job he lost.
If he plays like he’s shown in flashes, he keeps the job.
In the immortal words of someone: “Turnabout IS fair play”!
BUT . . . like D-Jax, KKolb’s not been the same since the concussions.
I caught Larry Fitzgerald on the radio this morning with Mike & Mike. Without ‘dissing Kolb, Fitz made it clear that he would love to be catching balls thrown by Peyton. I’ll bet he would, they’d be deadly together.
Sounds like what he was saying last year about Kolb….
McNabb made an appearance on the Dave Dameshek Football Podcast and talked a little Eagles. Amazingly, he knew the Eagles were in trouble before the season started.
McNabb the Magnificent?
But surprisingly, he didn’t know his career ended 3 years ago…Go figure.
Also talked about his preparation leading up to the 04 Superbowl (didn’t mention anything about conditioning).
But I bet you McNabb couldn’t tell you he was in trouble before the season started. It’s funny how that works.
Rather than picking up the guy that is cut to make room for Peyton Manning, maybe the Eagles should just sign Peyton Manning.
Pass. Handing him huge dollars with his situation? Count me out. Teams going for him are hoping to win the lottery. They might, but I’ve got some doubts. I’d love to see him retire and walk away from the game as an elite player rather than go out there and struggle because he’s not right.
Jason Campbell should be their #1 target for backup….
I think his neck is absolutely a concern and has to be looked at carefully if anyone is thinking of signing Peyton, but if Manning hits free agency and there is a feasible way to sign him, I think it would be foolish not to at least find out the status of his health and have a little interest. The reality is, if Manning is healthy, he is among the top 3 QBs in the league. Until this year, he had not missed a single game either. If healthy, there is no question he is a better QB compared to Vick.
Obviously, “if healthy” is a HUUUGE modifier in this case. No one seems to be really sure how he will return from his injury. On top of that, financially, it may not be feasible for the Eagles to sign him. I just think he is too special of a player to simply ignore if he is in fact cut from the Colts.
But if you even bring him in and anyone and i mean anyone says anything that gets to the media, Vick is gonna flip shit. Then you have one QB who you only have a very small chance of signing anyways, and one who is mad as hell and paranoid.
At the end of the day, I don’t think it is likely that we would bring Peyton here, particularly because we have so much money invested in Vick already and Peyton would also be fairly expensive I would imagine. I also agree with you that there are several other variables such as Vick’s ego that would also come into play. All that being said, we are talking about one of the top QBs in NFL history. We’re talking about a QB who has consistently won in the NFL. All I am saying is that, if Peyton Manning hits free agency, it is not as simple as saying “pass” and moving on. When a guy like that becomes available, you have to take a serious look at the situation and consider what options there are and if it is even feasible to bring him in.
Again, don’t get me wrong. My limited understanding of the cap, and the concerns about his neck all suggest there is no way the Eagles can/should bring him in. I just don’t think you can view Manning the same way you view a random free agent with injury concerns.
Apparently, he was just cleared to play by the way.
The apparent question then is, who could be a QB to take the Eagles all the way, if it’s not Vick, with or without DeSean.
Peyton Manning? Mark Sanchez? Kevin Kolb? Jason Campbell?
Or do you (Andy Reid) make a deal and get the QB of the future, RGIII even though your future could just be one season, but making those calls does leave the franchise in a longer term, stronger position?
Get Jones & MLB in FA, that all but tidies up the holes in the starting D.
Seems a deep draft for adequate WR, OL and LB depth on the chart, so using several picks to move up for RGIII is a thing you can afford to do, especially if you can get extra picks for Asante and DeSean, and even Vick if anyone will listen?
Going for RG3 is an option, but the cost may be huge. Not sure I’d sell out to get him since we do have Vick. If RG3 somehow slides down to pick 5 or something like that, I’m all for the move. Going up to 2 or 3 could be extremely costly.
RGIII is essentially a younger, slightly taller version of Vick without the NFL experience and three years of coaching by AR/MM et al. Young QBs can start, but they rarely win in the NFL, especially in the playoffs. So if you sell out for RGIII, firesale time on the veterans, clear cap room and build a top defense while you wait for him to grow up – i.e. two more years of missing the playoffs (yes, you can sneak in like Cincy, but Dalton wasn’t the second coming of Peyton).
No doubt it comes down to Vick playing well next year. The DC isn’t as important.
It also comes down to him staying healthy too.
Here’s a theory: After the mess of the O-line in the beginning of the season, and the injuries, he became much more jittery in the pocket. And after things started to look more and more bleak, and with the defense not playing well, he started pressing. With both of those things, it caused his play to decrease and his turnovers to increase.
At the end of the year, when he started feeling healthy, and comfortable in the pocket (he saw how well the O-line played in front of Young), he finally started playing better.
What do you think?
Not a bad theory. Also, I wonder if Mudd’s new blocking scheme affected Vick. The pocket was a bit different due to the style of blocking.
All this stuff ties in to the importance of the offseason.
I think you’re right. The question about next year has already been asked, will we see the Vick of 2010 or 2011? With an established O-line and full camps, I believe Mike will have a strong year. Maybe not as grand as 2010 but, without the difficulties you mention, much better than last year and good enough that qb will never be identified as a weakness in our game.
With the exception of Peyton, all the available qbs would be, at best, lateral moves.
Tommy,
What’s up with te Devon Still pick? Based on some prior comments, didnt seem like you were very high on him? What did Matt do to sway you?
Matt did the mock, not me.
I don’t like Still for us. Not worth pick 15 and won’t last to our 2nd round spot. Just watched some tape on him yesterday and I’m also not sure about him and Washburn. Any player where he’s less than great is magnified by the fact he skipped the Senior Bowl. Does he have the desire to be great? Can he compete at the highest level? Crucial questions for DTs.
M-E-L-V-I-N I-N-G-R-A-M.
He can play DE (great burst). Or one-gap DT (great burst).
___________________
Whomever the Eagles target, here’s what I want to know . . . did the kid have to work in high school to help put food on the table for his family.
If so, get him.
seconded and passed……..Cole, Jenkins, Ingram and Babin on 3rd and long..press at the line and send in the punt team
In Matt’s defense he had a disclaimer in there about 15 not being a great spot for the Birds and that they should think about moving up and/or back.
I warned people in 2010 that his performance was a mirage.
I’m now counseling people in 2012 that 2011 was also a fluke, a product of Vick trying to run the full offense, including line calls, without an offseason.
I think the last four games gave a better clue on Vick than the first 9:
11 rushes in 4 games, that’s below most NFL QBs, obviously he learned something from his broken ribs
1100 yards, 7-3 TD to Int ratio, including a bad throw into traffic he’d like to have back.
59% complete, but 9 YPA, even though few were deep throws to DeSean.
He wasn’t running as much, he was throwing the ball away, he was using his TE.
Was he a complete QB by the end of the year? No.
Did he show progress over 2011? Yes.
What should we expect in 2012? Incremental improvement.
Staying healthy is the key. If he just improves a little over his 2011 finish, that’s enough if he stays on the field. Improve his pre-snap reads, see the field better, choose his spots to run, throw the ball away when there’s nothing there.
I’ll take 4400 yards, 61-62% complete, 8+ YPA, 28-12 for a full season.
Other things need to happen to help this result materialize:
1) pass blocking needs to improve
2) McCoy has to catch and block better, a #2 RB who can contribute in the passing game
3) If DeSean doesn’t return, a big reliable #2, whether it’s Cooper, a FA or a rookie.
4) Use Harbor more, he’s a mismatch against most LBs and Ss.
A well balanced review.
It’s probably unfair of me to blame Mark Sanchez for ending our season (yeah yeah turnovers, 4th quarter leads, misuse of our secondary), but that stuff isn’t what I remember about christmas eve this year, so f*ck that guy.
Seriously. The Eagles are to blame, but whenever I hear someone talk about how great the Giants have been playing, and I think about how horribly the Giants played that game (practically begging the Jets to beat them), I can’t help but loathe “the Sanchize” and the OC who kept calling for passing plays.
T-LAW:
Regarding the resigning of McCoy (raised at the top) . . . since the mid-2000’s, things seem to have really changed regarding the importance of having a great running back on a Super Bowl Team.
In 2005, Seattle had Shaun Alexander. The Eagles and Pats in 2004 had Westy and Corey Dillon, respectively.
But since 2005, I think the RBs in the SB have been pretty pedestrian (including Mendenhall last year).
The 1990s and early 2000s featured: Rams and Faulk; Cowboys and Emmitt Smith; 49ers and Ricky Watters; Bills and Thurman Thomas; Denver and Terrell Davis; ATL and Jamaal Anderson; Titans and Eddie George; Ravens and Jamaal Lewis [but really Ray Lewis and the “D” carried that team].
Now, the NFL is so heavily titled to being a QB league . . . and heading toward flag football.
So, is resigning McCoy really that important? As compared to D-Jax? Or the best WR in free agency . . . or trading up for Blackmon? [Look at the Giants: They’re winning this post-season because of their WRs and QB; not their RBs.]
What’s more likely: The Eagles going on to win a SB because we have McCoy? Or the Eagles again having an elite QB?
Granted, if Vick transforms himself into a guy who can slide in the pocket and hit small windows, it won’t matter if we have McCoy or D-Jax. But that may be asking a lot.
I’m thrilled with McCoy . . . he reminds me, as I’ve written before, of Gale Sayers (not Barry Sanders because McCoy runs more vertical, all in all, than Sanders) — and when football was about really beating up the other team and pounding the rock 55% of the time.
But unless Vick transforms, or the Eagles defense transforms into a Top-5 yards/scoring/red-zone team, I regret I don’t see the Eagles winning the SB. Maybe just continuing as a 10-6 team that goes out early in the playoffs.
To be clear . . . I hope I’m wrong.
I’ve been wondering that, too. A lot of people have been espousing the belief that it’s better to spend half the money on 2 or 3 decent RB’s (the Saints being the obvious example) than breaking the bank to sign a star RB. But to put that belief into practice when you already have the star RB on your team, who’s been the most valuable member of the team when everything else was going wrong, is hard (to say the least). If we let Shady walk away without trying to give him the money almost any other team would give him, the fans would truly mutiny and the negative press would be deafening.
I think keeping McCoy is important. He’s a special player and fits what we do really, really well. I keep that guy.
I don’t give him some contract so huge that we can’t sign other players, but RBs generally don’t get that kind of money. I don’t think paying Shady big bucks will hurt the overall team.
The NFL is a QB league now. No one disputes that. We’ve already got our guy in place in Vick. If he doesn’t show progress in 2012, then we’ll go looking for a replacement next offseason.
If you have special players on your roster, I think you should always try to keep them. Shady isn’t just a good RB. I think he’s a special player. I’d pay him.
Vick is the key to our SB hopes. Not Castillo or Shady or DJax. Vick is the guy. I think we all agree on that point. He must stay on the field, protect the ball, and play better.
I don’t think you need to be a great running team or have a great running back. But you do need to be an effective running team in certain situations and you definitely need a back that can catch out of the backfield.
i feel like i always say the same thing but if we had rodgers, breese, brady, then a stud TE or WR is way better than stud RB but we dont have one of those QBS so we absolultley need to keep in my eyes the best RB in the game (at least top 3).
and if it was an option between Fitz and Mccoy then we can talk but signing Mccoy is must at this point.
Totally agree. To McCoy’s credit, he did try to fire Drew several times this year. Just wouldn’t stick.
Mark Sanchez? I first thought you were joking.. Two words: no thanks!
I agree. I think we need to do whatever we have to do to lock down Jason Campbell.
Sanchez didn’t have enough experience coming out of USC (I was in agreement with Carroll). He didn’t meet the general experience qualifications most successful NFL starters possess in college.
Jason Campbell will not come here…He was playing his best football of his NFL career before he got hurt…So why would he come to a place where he would be a definite backup?
He will go to one of the QB needy teams.
Maybe SEA, CLE, MIA, or even DEN.
We have a better chance of bring Kolb back than Campbell.
And while I do think a full off-season would benefit Vick, don’t think he’s going to be amazing.
Some of you are saying he can throw now…He can throw deep balls better than before. He’s always had the arm power..But he is wildly inconsistent when it comes to accuracy and touch on short passes.
Let’s just put it this way…Vick did pretty good in 2010..Except for the Chicago game, the second Giants game, and the Vikings game…I forget how he did in the Wild Card game..I’m pretty sure his performance was not considered “good”.
But all in all he did good in 2010. Let me remind you that he had a horrible preseason in 2010..
For the most part, Vick didn’t do well in 2011. His decision making when it comes to throwing horrible passes, throwing picks, forcing bad passes and almost getting picked, and just being indecisive…He actually was the starter for the whole preseason in 2011.
How does that make sense?
NO ONE can make an excuse for Vick and say that he’ll be better for sure with this full offseason…He played better in 2010 when he didn’t start in the preseason, didn’t play good in the preseason, etc.
Vick in 2010 took advantage of DCs who had no idea what to expect. He ran a simplified offensive scheme and ran a lot (in other words, Atlanta Vick with some clue how to find receivers).
Vick in 2011 was given a lot more on his plate, DCs had a year to gameplan for him and DeSean, and he struggled. No huge surprise. The OL was completely rebuilt, it was shaky with DeVan and Kelce the first five games, it stabilized as the season progressed but was still up and down.
Running the full offense requires a lot more preseason reps and study than just going out there with a simplified scheme and relying on athleticism. So on paper, while it looked like Vick regressed in 2011, I’d say the opposite, he learned a lot about how to play QB. Now he has a full offseason to digest his lessons.
Problem is many people look at 2010 and don’t understand it was a fluke, and see it as some “norm” Vick has to match to be a successful QB. More realistic expectations and 2011 isn’t as big of a worry. For one thing, his worst game, Zona, was played with broken ribs.
So I’m not expecting miracles, just competent QB play with the edge that he can break a big one with his legs whenever the defense screws up and gives him a big rushing lane. So I just want to see numbers like 62% complete, 8+ YPA and a greater than 2-1 TD to Int rate.
Here’s Vick’s first half numbers (no Zona game)
165 266 2,065 62.0% 7.76 11-9 13 sacks 85.8 57 456 8.0 0
That is not a horrid performance, needed to do better in the red zone and make fewer mistakes (though his WRs didn’t help) and he ran too much, but that wasn’t some putrid performance.
Given he improved on that the last four games, I think there is reason to think he can continue to progress.
no way would i want sanchez. i was never a fan of his even when he won a few playoff games. to me they won those playoff games cuz of defence and rex being a new coach. good coaches always seem to win in their first few years.
So Bill Cowher, Bill Bellichek, Jeff Fisher so on and so on are bad coaches?
i dont get why u ask me that
did u think i was saying “only” good coaches win in their first few years?
T-Law
Read your PE.com piece and was thinking about what you wrote about Bobby Wagner. During your time at the Senior Bowl you mentioned Keenan Robinson. Robinson is a tall LB with a nice frame (looks like he could easily add another 10-15 lbs of mass) and ideal size for SAM. Comparing the two, do you now like Wagner more, any additional thoughts on Robinson?
I’ve been wondering about the same question these last few days……
TL, I think you and I both agree that the Eagles will probably address MLB through FA (15 pick is not a good pick for a MLB unless he has Ray Lewis potential, and I can’t see the Eagles entertaining the thought of starting a rookie at MLB in 2012 given how that failed in 2011). So I’m devoting a lot more attention to potential SAM targets in the draft, where the Eagles could get someone in the 2nd or 3rd round.
Tommy, give us your Team Lawlor draft – everyone you pine for in their more or less given round.
You can go a little Madden on this one. I know Kuechly and Wolfe are on it, but who else?
I think austinfan is spot on. Everyone was giddy with Vick after 2010 (myself included), now everyone is discouraged with Vick after 2011. Why is everyone hitting the extremes? Why can’t Vick just return to an “average” level of play that falls between 2010 and 2011? That’s good enough to win the big one.
I understand we’re all Eagles fans and that means everything our players do is life or death, but guys, chill out and step back from the ledge. Look at Eli Manning for example. New Yorkers were ready to can him just a couple seasons after their Super Bowl win. Now they’re saying he belongs in the “Brady-Montana” discussion if he wins this Sunday. Holy moly.
FTR, I’m not discouraged with Vick. Give him a full off season as #1 with an offensive line he can trust and let’s see what happens.
That’s exactly my view. But I feel like a lot of fans are jumping off the bandwagon after one wacky season. Vick’s season wasn’t *that* bad. He absolutely needs to play better and cut down on the turnovers. Absolutely. But the INT numbers don’t tell the whole story. You had a weird beginning to the season where Vick was getting used to a new blocking scheme after a short off season and several balls were getting tipped by WR’s.
Vick has to play better, but so do 29 other QB’s this off-season.
I agree. In ’11 lockout I was saying no other QB would be hurt more than Vick due to the coaching he needed; after the last few games in ’10 season. The WR’s underperforming this year amongst the leaders in dropped passes, some leading to turnovers others in key situations, didn’t exactly help ither. Even Celek couldn’t catch passes ’til the later part of the season; when he said that him and Mike started working together a lot more.
I feel the exact same way you do about Russell Wilson. My wife is a Wisconsin grad which means we watch every Wisconsin game and while Monte Ball did have an amazing season I feel like Wilson had just as good year. He seems to me to have the arm and his accuracy was not too bad at all. He also is a smart kid with amazing athletic ability, passed up going to baseball to enter the NFL. I would love to see him on the Eagles draft board in the 3rd or 4th round. His height is the killer though but he is pretty much the same size Drew Brees. I just feel like he is exactly the type of QB Reid loves. Athletic, smart, and good guy and would fit in the west coast offense.
I think people consistently overlook him and I think if given a year or two of seasoning he could make for a good QB. People knock him on the fact that he made alot of plays “outside the pocket” which for me is not a bad thing in the NFL this day and age is not a bad thing. The day of the Drew Bledsoe QB who is a statue and 6’6 is a thing of the past. You need to be able to scramble and still keep the defense honest.
I have not seen the other guys you mention as much so I can’t comment on some of the other guys you mentioned but I just think what Russel Wilson has to offer he would be a steal in the 3rd or 4th round.
Watched Wilson at State and WI and I haven’t seen the rocket arm from Wilson. If you are that short you have to be smart and see the play through the gaps in the line. Dmac had trouble with that at times and got a lot of balls knocked down… Dmac was 3 inches taller than Wilson.
Brees has anticipation, he throws through small windows. He also has deceptive arm strength… he can heave a ball.
Not sure Wilson is that guy… sorry.
I know this is incredibly unscientific, but I remember watching Hard Knocks when the Jets were featured and the whole time I couldn’t get over how terrible I thought Sanchez was as a leader in that locker room. He seemed incredibly immature, lackadaisical, he had no visible drive to be great…definitely wasn’t fiery like Jeff Garcia (as the EMB crowd likes to say). I’m sure it’s possible for him to have changed, but with his continued lack of respect and ability to drive that team to big wins, it just seems to mesh with my first impression that he’s just missing “that”…whatever “that” is. Furthermore, he just didn’t pass the eye ball test at all this year. He looked down right terrible. I’d so much rather see what decent coaching could do with a guy like Campbell than a guy like Sanchez. Just my two cents…
i think we can have our pick of the backup-qb litter again this year. everyone wants to work with marty and andy, and everyone knows vick’s going to miss at least a few games next year. so who’s the best borderline starter out there in free agency? kyle orton, maybe?
+1 to all. Excellent debates on Vick and the lot.
My 2 Cents on Taco.
Tommy. Seriously… GQ can’t run this offense. He has a noodle arm. MM and Andy need a dude who has a cannon. That is why Kolb is in AZ… weak arm. If you an’t get the ball downfield to Santonio Holmies in stride how the HELL are you going to get the ball in stride to DJAx/Maclin?
Personally I busted my spleen laughing when Jets traded up for an obvious second round talent. He played at USC… The last good QB they had was named Palmer. We have enough short arm talent on the roster.
Give me Jason Campbell as the backup at least then you don’t have to change the offense for week 4-6 when Vick is out.
BTW – I hope the offseason does what we are all wishing it will do for Vick. I feel like he is so close to getting it that maybe, just maybe this year he can make the jump to elite. And if he hits stride end of Nov… look out. (wow that is a lot of optimism).
i say jason campbell or josh johnson…
Besides the offseason Vick needs; some WR’s he can throw to & CATCH the ball is urgent. The guy Tommy mentioned, Sanu, is growing on me.
Tommy
just out of curiousity, can you please post your pre-draft thoughts on Freddie Mitchell. Thanks.
I’ll have to dig up some stuff.
Could you find some posts? 🙂
What a stupid idea. Really you sound like a TATER. there is really no reason why sanchez would be better than vick. really really dumb post