Open Roster Spot – Debate
Posted: August 26th, 2012 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 60 Comments »Okay, let’s say the Eagles do this:
QB – 3
RB – 3
FB – 1
TE – 2
WR – 5
OL – 9
DE – 5
DT – 5
LB – 6
S – 4
CB – 6
ST – 3
In this scenario, WR Marvin McNutt does not make the team. What spot do you keep the extra player at? The easy answer is DE and going with 6 guys. However, you have to factor in the active gameday roster. Can you play 5 DEs (with Curry sitting out)? With the uncertainty on the OL, maybe going heavy there is wise. Or Chris Polk? Brett Brackett? Keenan Clayton?
What do you do and why?
Times yours.
One thing that I keep coming back to is Cooper vs. McNutt. I used to be a big Cooper supporter. I really thought he had what it took to be that big redzone threat that we needed. But, I mean, its been three years now, and he’s barely cracked the starting line-up. Whether that’s Cooper’s fault, or the coaching staffs, I don’t know. I guess at this point I’m done trying to give Cooper a shot, and seeing where he fits in with our WR corp. I think McNutt, given another year or two, could be what Cooper was meant to be, but better.
So you are faulting Cooper for been behind Maclin, Jackson, Avant, Celek and McCoy? Remember Cooper has never had a complete off season before this one and then he broke his collar bone in early TC.
I explicitly said “Whether thats Coopers or the coaching staffs fault, I don’t know…” At this point, do you think its better to keep a guy who hasn’t shown us much for 3 years, than one who is a complete mystery for zero? I’m pretty confident we’ve seen all we can from Cooper. McNutt had a decent camp once the pads came on, from what I understand. I’d rather give a promising rookie the opportunity than sit around another year and wait for Cooper to get some type of playing time time
Another thing to keep in mind is Cooper’s contract is up after 2013. Cooper is going to want to give himself a chance to show what he can do and earn a contract. Is it fair to keep him sitting around when we know he will barely get any playing time? Its pretty obvious we wouldn’t resign him anyways.
I don’t know, I’m not saying I’m right, but I just think its time to cut ties, and move on to the next opportunity. Its not like Cooper was a second round pick, so its not a huge loss if we cut him. But I would love for someone to tell me what I’m missing. I’d prefer if our players succeeded, regardless of who they are.
Has McNutt shown anything on special teams? Cooper has been a good performer for Bobby April’s units, which is what you want from a fourth WR.
ST is a great point I forgot to think about. Thats something that needs to be kept in mind, for sure. Thats not to say McNutt can’t be a good ST’er though. Guess we thats something we’d have to take a closer look.
My main thought when I think about Cooper vs. McNutt, is who is going to replace Avant? I don’t see Cooper as a viable option in the slot at this point, where as I do see McNutt as having shown some flashes once the pads came on at Lehigh.
A better question is if Desean or Maclin get dinged, who can move outside? Cooper started 3 games and racked up 240 yards and 1 TD as a starting WR. Can you expect that kind of production from McNutt playing outside?
Hall or Gilyard are more likely to make the final roster than McNutt.
Last year Cooper had over 300 yards receiving, that is very good for been the 6th option on offense and also in Coopers rookie season he was the Eagles leading receiver in the preseason where McNutt have done zero this pre season. Yes McNutt looked good in pads, but so far have done nothing to prove he is better then Cooper
I assume there is someone else, on some roster right now is is going to get added to bring depth at a position we need it. I’m just going to guess O-line, some prospect that fits better with the Mudd system and we have 10- O-linemen, no-one who will be active, but a project.
6 DEs. Without a doubt. That’s where the talent is.
If we have a hole in another spot, DE is where the trade value is as well.
DE depth for Safety depth?
I know it seems crazy after he had such a great season, but do you think the Eagles would trade Babin, given all the talent at DE this year?
He’s their sack leader – can’t see them trading him. I could see them consider trading him at the end of the season when Curry is more ready to be a regular in the rotation.
Yeah, just throwing the idea out there, but you’d also have to consider that Babin is not getting any younger, and that his trade value is at an all-time high. A team desperate enough for pass rushers could make an offer the Eagles would not be able to refuse. The way Hunt has played so far makes me think the dropoff from Babin isn’t exactly severe.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to see him do what he did last year in Eagles green this year, but it’s gotten really crowded at DE in Philly.
I like the idea of trading when a player’s value is high – I wanted to trade Asante 2 years ago. But considering there isn’t a great drop off in talent from Babin to Hunt, I love the idea of having a consistently intense pass rush this year!
I think we’re on the same page. If only the Eagles were six-deep at other positions!
I’m not sure Babin has a lot of value considering he has failed in the NFL except while playing under Washburn…
The same can be said about backup QBs performing well only for AR, yet teams seem to keep trading for them.
Eh…not really. Our backup QBs are drafted by Reid and have only played under him. Still “potential” to be special somewhere else. Babin has bounced around the league prior to finding success with Washburn. I think the jury is out that Babin is very successful with the Wide 9 but not so much in a normal system.
He thrives in the Wide 9. Teams like Tennessee and Detroit could use his services, although the latter is stacked anyway.
I wouldn’t do it before the season, but if some team out there loses a starting DE before the trade deadline and the Eagles feel good about the way Hunt/Graham/Curry have been playing, then… yeah, I don’t hate the idea, depending on what they get in return.
They’d need to keep Tapp around for this to work, though.
I got 4 DTs and 6 DEs and gonna have 4 DTs and 5 DEs active on game day. With Graham and Tapp been able to play inside
First of all I’m not so sure that they go with 6 CB. But as you point out the Eagles have enough to meet their needs on game day to start the season. So they might add a player or two here who they think will develop as the season goes on. For example if they think Bracket can learn to block or an extra OL that they think can adapt to Mudd’s approach if given a few more weeks. McNutt might be interesting if the Eagles think he could be the slot receiver next year. Wasn’t he drafted as the eventual replacement for Avant. Has he been that bad that they are ready to give up on him? Bracket is particularly intriguing to me because he should be a very difficult cover and if we really want to use a lot of 2 tight end sets — don’t we need a back-up. It is difficult to judge whether some of the players will get plucked off the practice squad except for Polk who seems likely to get picked up but unlikely to convince the Eagles they need 4 RB. Overall I think the question is not as much where to go strong but who could be the next player to emerge.
I think the Eagles go with 6 CB. Right now on game day they are going to have 5 active CB. NA and DRC as starters, Hanson in the slot and March on the outside when they go with NA the slot against TEs and last Boykin as the primary KO returner. I thought the 6th would have been Harris, but he was waivered today. I think Hughes have the inside track for the 6th spot.
I’d keep Clayton because of his value on teams, unless an OL shakes loose that is a serious upgrade. Is Matthews safe at LB?
You need to get decent trade value for one of the DEs.
Don’t know what to do with Polk. Heck, he might be able to start for a couple of teams. Can he get shoulder surgery and then be stashed on IR for the year?
McNutt isn’t even as good as Cooper now, and Cooper has teams value. Johnson will be “the next Avant”, except he’ll play more like Welker.
And I agree that 6 CBs might not be needed–could you get trade value for Lindley and/or Harris and/or Hanson and/or Hughes?
Why not only keep 2 QBs? Kafka and Edwards aren’t irreplaceable players. If Vick gets injured, I’m pretty sure one of those guys will be available to sign the following week. If it came down to keeping Tapp or Jarrent instead of one of those guys, I’m choosing the former.
Interesting idea, but I think it’s just a matter of risk management and the importance of the position.
The way I see it:
QB- 2
RB- 3
FB- 1
TE- 2
OT- 4
OG/C- 5
WR- 6 (the #6 WR gets signed off the waiver wire)
DE- 6
DT- 6 (Mike Patterson starts out on the PUP)
LB- 6
CB- 5
S- 5
ST- 3
That adds up to 54, but it includes Patterson who starts out on the PUP
Soo….
QB: Vick- Foles
RB: McCoy- Lewis- Brown
FB: Havili
TE: Celek- Harbor
LT: Dunlap – Bell
LG: Mathis – Vandervelde
C: Kelce – Gibson
RG: Watkins
RT: Herremans – Kelly
WR: Jackson- Maclin- Avant- Cooper- Johnson – ?
DE: Cole- Babin- Graham- Hunt- Curry- Tapp
DT: Patterson- Jenkins- Cox- Landri- Thorton- Dixon
LB: Kendricks- Ryans- Chaney- Rolle- Matthews- Jordan
CB: Cromartie- Nnamdi- Hanson- Marsh- Boykins
S: Coleman- Allen- Thomas- Jarret- Otogwe
ST: McBriar- Henery- Dorenbos
I think McNutt makes the team. I’m not sure about the other positions but NuttDogg will be there.
…and TL, I gotta correct your grammar… it’s “Time’s yours” 🙂
I look at all the cuts elsewhere and look hard for additional OL depth. Definitely concerned about depth on the line. If can’t find it, look at safeties as well. I will be very surprised if by week 1, there isn’t at least one if not 2 faces on the Eagles not currently on the roster.
Under your scenario, I would probably keep Keenan Clayton, after just yesterday – JUST YESTERDAY! – saying he won’t make the team. He does have value on special teams and as nickel LB. I think Havili has shown enough to warrant having a FB and Brackett needs to learn how to block. But I was assuming we’d keep 6 WR’s with the 6th spot between Hall, Gilyard and Hamler. Also assuming that we’d go with 6 DE’s and 4 DT’s although Patt’s slow recovery probably means we hold onto Dixon for now. Tough question, but Clayton probably has more game day value than people like Chad Hall whose return days likely are over as an Eagle.
We should keep Keenan Clayton for 3rd and 74’s just to see what happens. 😉
Glad someone pays attention.
The undeniable depth strength of this team in training camp and preseason has been the defensive line. Counting Patterson, I think the 12 everyone lists should be kept, barring a trade for equal or greater value. It also makes sense to keep the coaches’ choice of Trotter/Taylor/Ogbu who shows the most beyond those 12, as those 12 would make virtually every NFL roster. At linebacker and safety combined, there are only four Eagles who would make virtually every NFL roster (Ryans, Kendricks, Allen, Coleman). Every player beyond those four is some kind of role player or project. Of course, you need many more than those four, but I seriously question the need to keep more than nine linebackers and safeties in total on the initial 53. That’s five more guys who are not yet ready to start in the NFL. That’s plenty. Definitely cut the 11th and 10th best linebacker/safety. You can get those guys back, or better players, after other teams make their cuts.
If there’s an injury somewhere during the season and the Eagle need to make a trade, the position that can bring in a starter or two is defensive line. No one will want the linebackers or safeties we can spare in mid season, but defensive lineman number 13 might be quite useful to the Eagles after some of the top 12 are traded or injured to solve greater problems elsewhere, whether on offense or defense.
If smart drafting is to take the best player available, without considering position, smart cutting is to release the worst player remaining, without considering position. How many guys who can’t beat out Coleman or Rolle does a team need? Maybe the better question, is how many guys do you keep who can’t make it easy to cut Jarrett or Matthews, who themselves have not proven to be capable NFL players? A guy who can’t beat out Dixon or Tapp right now could be a capable NFL player. If so, keep him over the guys who can’t beat out Jarrett or Matthews.
That’s some pretty sound reasoning, as long as you don’t leave yourself completely exposed should you get multiple injuries at LB or safety (or OL?) in a single game. You would hope that the guys that were cut would still be available, but you can’t be sure. Tough call.
That is an interesting take that initially raised my eyebrows. Continuing to consider it, though, I’m not sure I agree. I guess the counter-argument to keeping the best 53 is keeping the 53 players most likely to contribute. If a guy can’t beat out 6 other guys at the DE position, how likely is he to contribute? If he isn’t going to contribute, why is he here?
With only 9 LBs and safeties combined, who is going to cover on special teams? Those are the key guys who contribute to the coverage unit.
As for keeping the best 53 guys and then looking to make trades to fill out the thin spots, I think it is too late for that if we want to contend this year. The BPA strategy during the draft works because there is still plenty of time to patch the holes after the draft.
Special teams guys are often picked up from other teams, Colt Anderson himself was a Viking (yikes he couldn’t make it in that secondary!).
I agree that they should keep 5 LBs, because they don’t have talent they need to protect there with 6 spots. They can make 5 active if needed and carry one or two on the practice squad, picking up someone on waivers if there’s an injury or upgrade. But with all the talent on the team, 6 LBs seems like a waste.
At S, I think they should go with 4 if it means Allen, Coleman, Atogwe, and Thomas, because all four have some risk and reward and you have to see what works. Thomas would have been drafted but for a drug test. The weak link of the four makes room for Colt Anderson when he comes off PUP in week 7.
I agree you balance retaining talent with anticipating your active roster. The 6-8 players you don’t think will be active should have upside, while role players should fit onto the 46 actives.
but the other side of that is that you want to have backups who are more useful for special teams. Stockpiling big guys is not the way to do that.
Bryce Brown, Havili, Boykin, Philip Hunt: preseason special teams tackling machines. Then out comes the Colt.
Akeem “The Dream” Jordan your new WIL starter. Is Rolle in roster danger now?
Remember when we were thinking he was going to get cut?
I don’t know why people thought he was getting cut. Can play all 3 spots and is a beast on ST
I think He means when we were talking about Rolle being cut if he didn’t win the WIL battle.
If you are talking about Rolle, yes. He’s just not that useful if he isn’t starting
And now Akeem Jordan is your starting WILL. I was a bit surprised, but it makes sense. Rolle and Chaney didn’t do enough to win the job outright. Jordan is solid, if unspectacular.
It makes sense when Andy says it but I didn’t get any backups last week when everyone was scoffing at the idea and calling him a ‘role player.’ Jordan doesn’t make as many mistakes that negate what the other guys do, and he’s only 16 months older than Chaney. Rolle is young but he’s not ready.
I like the move. You’re exactly right. Jordan doesn’t make a lot of plays, but he doesn’t make a lot of mistakes either. Three years ago when we had a defense in need of playmakers, it was a different deal. Now we just need to play to our strengths, and have the LBs cover and tackle.
He was already going to make the team because of STs and because he tends to be able to back up every LB position.
There’s absolutely no way I see the Eagles going with 2 QBs. Doesn’t fit with the way the Eagles see the position and doesn’t fit with the importance of it in the NFL.
I’d agree with Tommy’s numbers, and use the remaining spot on Tapp, McNutt, or possibly Brackett.
I think I’m keeping Clayton. He can be used on special teams if he is active. Meanwhile, he works on learning the safety position. When Colt is ready to rejoin the team, the decision comes down to Clayton or Jarrett.
To me, McNutt looks like a Danny Amendola situation. He probably has enough to make a weaker roster, maybe even contend for playing time, but he doesn’t seem to be a guy we will be kicking ourselves for passing on. I have similar thoughts on Polk.
I think though that with Cooper out they might want to keep McNutt or Brackett for at least until Cooper is ready to play.
Can’t see them keeping McNutt, except on the PS – to me, he seemed to be beat out by Hall, Gilyard and Hamler. Even with the ‘this year’s draftee’ extra credit, he still doesn’t seem to warrant a roster spot. Brackett is a definite possibility though.
Good point. Can they play a week or two with just 4 WR? Can they use Harbor in a pinch? I don’t know.
I don’t think that Tapp makes it to the final 53. Probably not an entirely fair call to make given his play in TC & so far this PS but I’m a little iffy as to whether he’ll actually keep up this level of play consistently through the season. Will he maintain that level once he gets a spot on the final 53 or when he’s getting limited reps & gametime (as he seems to clearly be the 6th best DE at this point)?
Best case scenario for me would be for the Eagles to trade him now while he has some value & try to recoup a late draft pick from some team that is struggling for depth on the line.
I don’t know why you’d doubt that he would be able to keep up his consistent play, but I think there’s a better than 50% chance that Tapp is moved elsewhere.
If they anticipate Colt Anderson being ready in a couple weeks, maybe keep 5 safeties in the beginning rather than putting him on PUP and having to wait 6 weeks. If he’s healthy and playing by week 2 or 3, and Jarrett doesn’t start showing the development he needs to, you can cut him a few weeks into the season and activate someone off the practice squad, like Polk, McNutt, or Brackett, assuming they can sneak them through.
I like 5 LBs, 11 DL, and 4 RBs + 1 FB. As I’ve said I like all the Eagles 4 RBs and while Brown has tremendous upside, Polk is best at blitz pickup and ball control, which means he can function as a role player the way the others can’t. Lewis blocks for a little guy but has ball control issues. Outside DL and RB, I don’t see where that ‘extra guy’ can give you upside.
Wide receiver Riley Cooper continues to recover from a fractured collarbone. However, Reid said that Cooper will “struggle” to be ready for the season opener.
Got to be 6 WRs to start with hasn’t it? Surely.
I would think
We could create 4 roster spots by only keeping the linebackers with talent.
Play a 5-2.
Chris Collinsworth has left Jason Peters for Austin Howard. I hope he doesn’t slip up and whisper ‘Jason’ into his ear.