ARZ 27, PHI 6
Posted: September 23rd, 2012 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 65 Comments »The Eagles played with fire in the first two games, but found a way to win each time. This time they got burned. 3 turnovers proved to be very costly, as the Ravens Cardinals built a 24-0 halftime lead. One fumble set up a short TD drive. Another fumble was returned 93 yards for a TD in a game-changing play. Without the turnovers you have a 13-6 game that was much more even. With the turnovers, you have a 27-6 butt whipping.
Instead of picking apart the game, let’s talk about some key topics.
Should Michael Vick be benched? No. He did not play well, but I don’t think he was so bad that he should be benched. Vick had a new C and LT. He was missing a starting WR. And the coaches decided to have him throw over and over early in the game. The gameplan didn’t work. Vick wasn’t executing it well, but part of that was due to LB Daryl Washington. That guy was all over the field and is Vick’s kryptonite.
Vick played very well last week. You don’t bench him after that and then a sloppy game tonight. His biggest sin was holding the ball too long, but you do wonder if players were getting open.
Are the Eagles a Super Bowl team? This is a fun question to ask, but isn’t very realistic. The 2008 Cards lost to us 48-20 and went on to the Super Bowl. The Giants lost to the Saints last year 49-24. They won the SB.
This is the NFL. Don’t make one loss more than what it is…a loss. In college, one loss can ruin a season. The NFL is about teams building over the course of a season to get ready to go play for the Super Bowl. Based on today, I think the Eagles have a good shot for the Outback Bowl, but that’s about it. Last week they did look like a Super Bowl team. We’ll have to see what the team looks like in November.
What’s up with the OL? I’ve got to watch the tape to really know in-depth. There were times when the line did a great job. The problem is that Vick held the ball too long on some plays and made the blocking look bad. There were breakdowns by the skill players. Shady didn’t have his best day in pass protection. Brent Celek was up and down. Not all the problems were on the OL.
That said…I think we got away with holding a lot. Demetress Bell wasn’t good. Dallas Reynolds got attacked quite a lot with double A-gap blitzes. I have no idea how he did. Jim Johnson invented the double A-gap blitz so you would think we’d know how to block it. We knew there would be some rough moments with the new C and LT. You can’t have 2 new starters on the OL and adjust flawlessly, especially when taking on a team that runs the 2-4-5 a lot.
Are the Eagles problems fixable? Yes and no. The OL can play better. The more that we have the same 5 guys on the field, the better off we’ll be. That said, the OL isn’t good enough as is to do a lot of the things that Andy wants to do. He must adjust the offensive attack. That means either running or throwing short, quick passes. I do think the absence of Maclin really hurt us today.
Turnovers must stop, but I don’t know how a coach does that. I’m sure Andy preaches ball security. Obviously he needs to preach it even more. You just can’t turn the ball over and win every week. Maybe we should bring in Marty Schottenheimer as a consultant. His teams always had minimal turnovers.
The offense must score points. After 3 games, the Eagles have a grand total of 47 points. Part of this is due to the OL and turnover issues. No matter how you slice it, we need to start scoring more.
The defense isn’t perfect, but has played pretty darn well all things considered. They failed to come up with any takeaways today and that could have been a huge help to a struggling offense.
* * * * *
Jimmy Bama and I recorded a postgame show. We talked about the game, the idiocy of Brian Billick, and then went off on a tangent about other announcers. Might cheer you up on a crappy Sunday night.
_
I wouldn’t bench him based on tonight. I’d bench him based on the preseason, the Browns game, and tonight.
Said it before, will say it again: *if* Foles is the guy we saw in the preseason, he’s a better fit for this offense. With the playmakers they have on offense and finally what seems a solid defense, we need to be thinking more game management. With a shaky offensive line, we need to be thinking quick reads and throws. It’s just not in Vick to play that way.
This is a fair argument. I do question if Vick is the right guy to run the offense that Andy wants to see.
so what kind of offense does andy want to run? serious question
Is it ironic that you’re all talking about the type of offense Andy wants to “run”? (pun intended) 😉
Lot of truth to this comment. Vick has been a turnover machine this season. He led the two comebacks, but you could argue that he had a huge role in putting us in those tough positions to begin with. I’m not fully on the bench Vick bandwagon yet, but I do think bringing in Foles after Vick turns the ball over a few times like he did today sends a necessary message to Vick. If he continues to do it though, he needs to be benched for a game.
Is there enough PBR to get you through the DGR?
Not right now. Only have 5 in the fridge. Need reinforcements.
As I’m based in Louisville, I have bourbon connections….including the PBR of bourbon, my personal favorite, Old Crow. Let me know and I’ll pull the trigger, but I can’t promise to be sober enough to get through the entire DGR without sobbing after that disaster.
I think Vick is a huge liability honestly. Teams are blitzing him again and again and he’s not handling it. Teams are going to keep doing that until he figures out how to deal with it. Honestly ever since that Vikings game 2 seasons ago Vick hasn’t been performing like a top flight QB, and I think a lot of that has to do with how teams are blitzing. It’s unfortunate, but Vick has been in the league a long time now and if he hasn’t figured out how to beat the blitz yet I don’t think he’s going to improve too much more. There are a lot of things Vick does well and if he has a clean pocket he can really put some pinpoint throws out there, but I don’t anticipate teams backing off the blitz at this point. If Vick was better at getting the ball out quickly to a hot reciever I think that would help immensely but I just don’t see him doing it.
Also, the the fumble at the end of the first half was awful. He had to know he had to get the ball out quickly regardless with only six seconds left on the clock. It’s like the play last year where we ran out of clock near the end of the half, I think it was against Buffalo but I could be wrong. Just the same stupid mistakes.
I don’t know that we’ll do any better with Foles in there, but I just don’t have confidence in Vick going forward. He’ll have some good games I’m sure, but the areas of his game that needed to be cleaned up really haven’t been cleaned up at all. Ball security, beating the blitz, even sliding is still an adventure.
Keep in mind Vick was better against Baltimore, but he still had some bonehead manuvers, so its not like he was awesome or anything, so thats 3 strait games where he’s playing at a level much less than an elite QB.
The teams energy seemed off today also, really just one of those games where you only had to watch 5 or 10 minutes and you already knew the day was not going to go well.
I like Andy Reid a lot as a coach, and I think his tenure here has been pretty good, but HOLY SHIT I will not miss the outright neglect of the run game. I mean it gets to the point that you say it so often that you’re just numb to it. I mean why be frustrated when you know going in thats what Andy is going to do? The only choice you have as an Eagles fan is to resign yourself to it. When I see us throwing it over and over and over I used to kind of die a little inside, despair, maybe want to throw myself off my roof… but anymore? Eh.
Also Tommy, I don’t know why but every time I post it won’t put spaces between my paragraphs no matter how many lines of space I leave when I post, it only changes when I edit the post. Dunno if thats a formatting thing or what but on long posts it kinda smushes everything together and makes it a big wall of text, not very appetizing to read.
The play calling is out of control.
We used to complain about Reid calling a game with a 60-70% pass ratio. In a game with a shaky O-line and a missing #1 WR, the 1st half pass ratio was 83%. And it’s essentially what went wrong in the Browns game, and what didn’t in the Ravens game.
This is what drove me nuts. The Ravens games was so well coached, the play calling was balanced and the players were, actually, put in a position to succeed. The result was a huge win. I’m trying to imagine what Andy and Marty were thinking in this game.
Can you speak on my man Brandon Graham. Was unable to watch the game but 4 tackles, 1 sack and 3 TFL in what I assume was limited snaps is great.
Good game. In the backfield a lot. Not sure how much he played.
I’m not saying Foles could come in and be “the answer” … but….
We have a top 5 defense IMO, even my best friend (a Cardinals fan.. so this is really killing me) agrees.
Let our D attack, and get off the field, let our best player be the center of our game plan (SHADY) and let our weapons be just that – weapons, not a centerpiece.
If Foles would start, I think it would be unreasonable NOT to expect less turnovers. You baby him. You play call more to the tune of Jeff Garcia feeding off of a dynamic #36, just this is Foles feeding off of #25.
Foles can run a respectable offense. He won’t be doing that pre-season magic, but he’ll be serviceable. That will allow the D to rest, keep a level head, not play with awful field position, attack, create turnovers, and impact the game. We’ll be a well-rounded team that controls the clock and wins games.
Simply put, Vick can’t do that.
I’m officially a fan of replacing Vick… One reason and one reason only: turnovers. They don’t just change the score, they change the feeling of the game and the momentum
And he has a long and proven track record of being careless with the ball.
At least Boardwalk Empire is on tonight
Got the DVR set.
Tommy, any idea what Andy/Marty’s logic could be for passing so much? I’m not trying to beat a dead horse here, I really want to understand what their motivation is. We’re carrying 4 promising RBs on the roster. The o-line is struggling in pass protection. Our WRs are banged up. Can you think of any they are seeing that could explain passing so much? These are good coaches with a solid track record together, I just want to hear a potential argument.
Agreed – I’m struggling to understand the logic behind ignoring the run so continuously. I mean, if you’re only going to use a stud RB like Shady 13 times in a game, what’s the point in having a stud RB?
I’ll write up a post on it on Monday.
You’re right, that horse has been beat and kicked dead a long time ago. So why are Andy and Marty still trying to ride it? This really is a legitimate question. I’m having trouble thinking of any other coach in the NFL calling the type of game the Eagles played today.
The only way I’m in favor of benching Vick is if we’re going to trade him before the deadline.
Tommy,
There are many different things individuals on this team can do differently to right this ship again. However, it seems to me that it is critical for the coaches, and ultimately, Reid to really formulate a gameplan/philosophy that limits the chances of the Eagles hurting themselves.
Vick is saying all the right things, but I think at this point someone needs to save Vick from himself. I really believe that Vick wants to fo the little things right and take what the defense gives him but more often than not, he just can’t help himself and tries to don that Superman cape before leaping into oncoming traffic.
Long story short, what would you do to help Vick and this offense if you were Reid?
I’d call more than 5 run plays in a half of football.
Our OL sucks.
In my opinion, Todd Herreman’s kinda sucks as a RT compared to when he played LG.
Danny Watkins is a bum who we drafted to fill a major need. Will we ever be able to call him good?
Reynolds spent like 3 years on the practice squad . . . Probably for a good reason, huh?
Kelce was a late round draft pick for a reason. He can only do one thing that most C’s can’t do . . . Block in the second level because he has good athleticism because he used to play MLB in college lmfao. Oh and he’s undersized.
Evan Mathis was on like 3 different teams in his career and was like 29 when he had his first successful season . . . He was also playing next to the best LT in football in that season . . .
King Dunlap . . . . . . Whewwwww . . . He…Just…Sucks….
Demetress Bell, your a waste of money.
Jason Peters . . . I hate you…You just had to get hurt didn’t ya?!?
A bit over the top.
1st and goal at the 1 or 2 yard line in the final seconds of the second quarter…We could have spiked the ball if the run was unsuccessful.
Now what’s the point of having a Chris Polk on the team, ACTIVE, and not let him try to bruise it into the end zone? Is it the trust issues with a rookie? What else do you got to lose? Your down 17, Vick’s struggling, and he’s a power runner?
If you insist on passing, why not do a roll out to the left of the first down?
Didn’t have time to run. 1st down was with :16 left. Play takes 4 seconds. Then it takes minimum of 10 seconds to get set to spike. General rule is more like 12 to 14. Not enough time.
I actually wanted us to run the ball in that situation as well. Passing the ball has it’s own risks. If Vick takes a sack (something clearly not out of the realm of possibilities, it’s harder to get players in a position to spike the ball than on a stopped run. Also, you are assuming they stop the run. With McCoy, there is a good chance he gets in on a run play. Lastly, with the way the play calling was going, a run play would have caught the defense off guard. I think with 16 seconds left, you hand the ball off, and worst case scenario, you kick the field goal. I like that better than risking the sack (and in this case, the fumble returned for a TD right before half).
I’m also not saying that with hindsight. I called for them to run the ball when we got there on 1st down.
Arm talent wise, Vick might be top 3 in the league in that category.
Except for short passes. Vick can’t put touch on short passes for some reason.
But anyways, there’s so much more of being a QB…And a good one at that.
Vick has terrible pocket presence.
Vick holds the ball for too long.
Vick is indecisive.
Vick isn’t that good at going through his progressions.
Vick just ISN’T a GOOD quarterback.
This is a passing team and in my opinion, Vick’s not a QB that is meant to throw the ball 30+ times a game on a week to week basis. I think they’re trying to make Mike Vick a QB that he just CANNOT be.
We have a stud RB, and 3 promising back-up RB’s. Each RB on the team has a different strength from the other RBs.
This offense should be more a run based team. That would set up play action and allow us to get more big plays in the passing game. When Vick throws the ball, call more 3 step drops, roll outs, and option plays.
Reid and MM need to just give up on trying to make Michael Vick someone he’s not and play to his and our offense’s strength.
Let Mike Vick be Mike Vick. Simplify the offense for Vick so he can be him and maybe we’ll see the guy from 2010.
Our offense should be more like the Niners, except give Vick more (not a lot) freedom compared to Alex Smith.
I know this is never going to happen but this is why we will not win a SB with Vick.
As I read the last line I was sure it was going to say with Reid, not Vick. I’m pretty sure we should fire Reid and promote Juan to head coach. Can you imagine the crazy heart this team would have?!?
I’ve been saying this since week 1 and somewhat towards the end of last season. The guy is a disaster as a quarterback. He can’t read the blitz, holds on to the ball too long, and is careless with the football–both carrying it and passing it. CUT!
This is also why I don’t think we will ever win a SB with AR.
Tommy,
long time, no say from me.
i wrote a long post but it went into cyberspace.
like i would like vick and reid to go.
f them both. they suck.
Understand your frustration. Not a fun day.
i am happy for kolb. hope foles doesn’t get the same f u from reid when his time comes.
Tommy,
you have always tempered my emotions, and i thank you for your level headed analysis (and much more) over the years. however, i feel i have i have reached my breaking point like i did with mcnabb in ’05. vick is not the answer. reid is a douche on a time bomb.
i am going to buy stock in pbr. <—smart move
Let’s see what happens on Sunday. If Reid comes out with the same gameplan, I might join you. Doubt he will, though.
this post had the same exact opening… it comes down to the minute — who did it first?
http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2012/9/23/3379318/eagles-vs-cardinals-final-score
by JasonB on Sep 23, 2012 7:31 PM EDT
seems we have a clear winner here
Jason used special hackers on steroids to change the time stamp on that. I just know it.
A top 5 defense and a top 3 RB can win a Superbowl. Period. And that’s what we have. We also have quite possibly the two fastest starting wideouts in the league and a RAC machine at TE. None of this has changed after tonight.
We HAVE to start running a more ball control oriented offense. Play great defense and run the ball. If the defense starts cheating up, THEN throw the play action deep. We don’t need to reinvent the wheel here, we’re too talented to have to resort to that.
I don’t know why all of this is so complicated.
It’s amazing what a $1.26 billion business can deliver…
Hey Tommy, this was a day where none of the stars shined.
I’m curious about how you feel Nhamdi Asomuga is playing. He doesn’t seem fast enough to keep up with the Receivers he’s suppost to cover. Didn’t like seeing him bitch at Coleman when Fitz emabarrased Nhamdi for a TD.
It also seems like Nhamdi is pretty much holding on the guy he covers. He got away with some of it last week too. Doesn’t seem like he’s earning his high dollar salary to my untrained eyes.
Vick is frustrating, sometimes is great (great passes, good read switching a play to a Shady where he gashed the Cards; other times can’t handle the blitz or coughs the ball up).
Next week should be the make or break game. Hope they give the reins to Foles if Vick can’t pull it together. (Maybe the OL is to blame, but a top NFL QB ought to know how to get the ball out quickly to make the blitz pay… he’s certainly had enough practice by now). Vick’s turnovers are inexcusable at this point. Hope he pulls it together.
No stars made star plays. True.
Whisenhunt is 3-0 against Reid. Beginning with the conference championship, I began to think that Whisenhunt found a tunnel into Andy’s head sort of like John Cusack in Being John Malkovich, and runs around it during the game with Cameron Diaz dodging the “I want carbohydrates” signs anticipating his every play call. Or sort of like in Star Wars when they steal the Death Star plans and find the hidden exhaust port that you have to shoot to blow it up, he is able to understand every minute weakness of the Eagles better than Andy does.
The Cards have gained fewer yards than their opponent in all three wins.
If you don’t recall the feeling of losing, this is the Eagles first loss since December 1, 2011, including preseason. Tomorrow is the one year anniversary of the last time the Eagles lost to a division rival, the, um, New York Giants.
Can’t be 3-0 since Reid beat him on TNF on thanksgiving in 2008.
3-0 since that game. I could have read the whole paragraph but I was busy with the plot synopsis pages.
Bottom line, Vick is not playing good football and Andy is not coaching good football. This team is very lucky to be 2-1. They could easily be 1-2 and probably should be 0-3. The silver lining is that we are 7 losses away from getting rid of Andy and maybe someday actually having a chance of a super bowl win.
Yes Vick should be benched. Hes been very poor this year except for a few bright moments. The offense is not as bad as Vick makes it look. I feel bad for Vick. But it happens to many Qbs in the NFL. Its a “moment” game. We only have 16 games and the NFC east looks very tough along with a very hard schedule. If Andy is smart he sits Vick. If Foles cant play, then Vick gets a second chance. Times a ticking on this season …. lets make the best of it.
Wow, you want to see some goofy stuff that might make you chuckle on this dark day check out this gaffe from a replacement ref in the Cowboys game.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/cowboys-receiver-kevin-ogletree-slips-replacement-ref-hat-191116326–nfl.html
I have no idea what that guy was thinking when he did that.
I watched that live. I had no idea why the guy would throw his hat onto the field. Really weird.
I agree that Vick has yielded terrible results, but this goes to the top of whoever’s play-calling. Andy says that it’s Marty but then accepts all blame for everything but the national debt. Coming in I thought ‘with back-up LT, C and WR starting, it’s rational to make the run game priority #1. Get the line wearing down the D, set up a play-action to #10, go two-tight-end, etc. And, generally, don’t act like a stubborn jackass and call plays that can be best described as amateur hour roulette at the Legion’s charity casino night! Marty can draw up some pretty nice plays, but I’m sick of watching games that make me question that guy’s intelligence. I know this is harsh. But the game-calling in games like this suggest a certain smarter-than-thou bravado that, at this point, hovers between infuriating and nauseating. John Fox took the Broncos to a win over the Steelers with Tim Tebow. Vick ain’t no Montana but he sure as hell is a better QB than Tebow. Enough said.
I’ve been reading comments like this for years though – clearly MM/AR aren’t going to change their approach to the run game, even when the common sense approach (ie: your thoughts above) says they probably should.
My question is, as an international fan who maybe misses the cultural nuances of the NFL, at what point are coaches held accountable? I mean, we hear the same crap excuses from AR/MM week in and week out. In our football codes here in Aus, if a coach’s game-plan isn’t up to scratch, they’d get four or five weeks, tops, before the pressure to alter tactics would result in a change on the field. If it was to continue past that, there are only a handful of coaches whose reputation would allow them to keep their jobs! (and even then, they’d have to show some tactical improvement within that season – not necessarily win games, but show improvement).
I’m NOT calling for the axing of coaches – but when/how do they get the message to run?
Having slept on it and now having awoke from it I have a few thoughts. First, good luck watching that again.
Second, in weeks one and 2 our D came up with RZ turnovers at the start of the game that helped keep the pressure on their D and bale out our O. Yesterday, that turnover flipped between 2 Eagles and ended in Flyod’s hands for a TD.
So it is the D’s fault and I have a backer –
Some in the NFL subscribe to the philosophy that if
your defense is dominant, your offensive approach should be more on the
conservative side. Marty Mornhinweg is
decidedly not among them.
“Now why would you ever do that?” an animated Mornhinweg
asked.
“No, really. You have to score points in this league to win.
We’re playing just the way I expect us to play with the exception of the
turnovers. I think we’d be pretty good if we’d get the turnover thing fixed.”
No one will dispute that. But should the play-calling be
adjusted to help in that effort?
Clearly the plays called (which by now every team in league knows ad verbatum) do not lead to the turnovers.
I agree that you don’t bench Vick now (8 hours ago I would say bench him!), but I think it has to be on your mind if you’re Andy Reid. I’d also bench Marty Mornhinweg if I could, but…
Vick has been atrocious with pocket presence and his turnover numbers are awful as well. This seems to be a theme that has carried over with him from last year. He’s fine moving the ball between the 20s and seems to have streaks of absolute brilliance. Then he’ll make one bonehead move that costs the team points. He has done an admirable job rallying the troops in the first two games for winning final drives, but at some point you need consistency from your quarterback.
No one has commented on the deep throw to Jackson where DeSean started his pass interference dance while the ball was still in the air. Watching the replay, me and my buddies thought that may well have been a catchable ball. Jackson took his eyes off the ball to look at the ref instead of completing the play.
It at least would have been close.
It’s a good thing that Andy realized in the 2nd half that we have a top 3 RB in the league. I mean, seriously? When we’re down 24-0 you remember to run the ball? Simply put, Juan Castillo was the best coach on our sideline yesterday and even his unit was frustrating to watch. It seems like there is a pattern of getting burned in week 3 by up and coming teams. So while Arizona gets credit for thrashing us, what is wrong with the fucking playcalling? i have supported Andy and Vick up to this point, but with that halftime fumble, Vick lost me. And Andy insisting on throwing 732640 times a game is just not gonna work. They saw that the Cards beat NE. NE has only a passing game. So wouldn’t you think that it would make sense to run the football?
disagree w/ you on Vick. he appears gun-shy, waiting until the receiver is certain to be open before throwing. the line is not affording him that luxury right now. he appears to be afraid to throw INTs. it was evident on the B Celek catch in the first quarter. he was wide open for a long time. Also, he has to be able to identify pressure pre-snap. Kerry Rhodes was preventable by Vick. He double clutched on that one and disregarded the unblocked safety lined up on the LOS on his left. he needs to know the blocking scheme and be able to identify potential blitzes and know where his hot read throws are.
Yup.
Look, Andy Reid outsmarted the Cardinals’ coaches completely. Think how much preparation they totally wasted figuring out how to stop Shady McCoy.
I’ve been preaching this for years, one reason I initially wanted Kolb over Vick was it would force MM to call plays more conservatively. It’s not an accident that the best stretches of play with MM as OC have been 2006 with Garcia (can’t call long patterns), 2008 with McNabb in the second half (finally realized teams were dropping safeties 20 yards after seeing it work for the Redskins) and Vick at the end of 2011. We saw Cutler almost ruined by Martz in Chicago. Warner is about the only QB who can thrive in a MM/Martz offense, and it cost him 3 or 4 years off his career. Defenses are too good at blitzing and too fast to win with a diet of slow developing plays (and so many of MM’s plays are like that, to show off his brilliance at play design, and his incompetence at reacting to what defenses do).
Harbor had 11 snaps, Havili 10.
Gee, when you know your OL is gonna be shaky, the opposing team is playing a nickel undersized formation all game, you go with 3 WRs (DeSean, D Johnson and Avant) all game, let McCoy (who’s a shaky pass blocker) stay in to block in obvious passing situations, call play action all game despite never actually running the ball, and call a lot of slow developing pass routes.
I’d fire MM if I were Reid, dig out my Childress playbook and steal some stuff from Gruden. This team has no chance of going anywhere as long as MM is OC, oh, they’ll put up 40 points against some bad defenses, but against a good defense, lights out.
Go back and watch the first half, and I’ll bet Tommy concurs when he finishes his review, while Vick should have secured the ball better, he was under constant INSIDE pressure – the reason that matters is the Cardinals kept their outside pass rushers on the outside shoulder of the OTS – which mean in the case of inside pressure there was a rusher to cut off Vick if he tries to slide outside to get away from that pressure.
Bell, Reynolds missed multiple blocks, McCoy blew a couple blocks (including failing to pick up Rhodes on the 3rd and goal play), blitzes came through the A gap untouched. Nor were there Eagle receivers running around wide open.
I don’t think any NFL QB would have done much that first half, Brady might have avoided the two fumbles (he would never have gotten past the LOS on the first one and would have thrown the ball away on the second one), but I doubt he completes a bunch of passes that Vick missed, and he would have been sacked a couple more times and been forced to throw a couple away that Vick completed.
The combination of bad play caling and lousy blocking doomed the offense.