Andy Talk
Posted: November 14th, 2012 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 43 Comments »I’m finishing up the DGR, but saw a couple of stories that I found interesting.
Reuben Frank has a good column about why Lurie won’t fire Reid during the season. I agree with what Roob said. I was actually thinking of writing something similar to this. The key phrase in Roob’s piece is “perspective”.
Critics see Reid as a bumbling idiot that should have been fired years ago. That’s fine. They’re certainly allowed to feel that way. Lurie sees Reid very differently. There is a really strong bond between the two of them. Think about it…Lurie spent a year dealing with Rich Kotite and then 4 years with Ray Rhodes. They had strengths and weaknesses, but after dealing with them, Reid must have seemed like an angel sent directly from football heaven.
Roob also had an interesting nugget that Lurie could possibly ask for Reid’s advice in picking a new coach, should he get fired. To some this will seem ridiculous, if not insane. It actually makes some sense. Reid has to face a variety of head and assistant coaches each year. He knows which ones do certain things well. Lurie and even Howie Roseman won’t have that kind of perspective. And remember…it was thinking like that in 1999 that led Reid to hire Jim Johnson. Lurie would be smart to pick Andy’s brain on coaches who are completely outside the Eagles organization. This wouldn’t be a case of Reid trying to sell Lurie on Shurmur, Spags, Childress, etc.
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Les Bowen put up a column on Tuesday called The Day Andy Reid Lost His Way. He was referring to the fateful day when Reid made the switch from Kevin Kolb to Mike Vick.
Les’s piece got me curious about my old stuff. I was writing at Iggles Blog back then and posted a couple of interesting pieces.
My prediction (stick with Kolb) – was wrong.
My reaction to the move had some good nuggets. I titled it “Life on Mars” so that should tell you how blown away I was. Here is one blurb:
My Reaction. I don’t like the move. There are a number of reasons for this. Here are 3 factors that are the focus of my opinion:
1. After 2 games, I don’t think the 2010 Eagles look like a Super Bowl team.
2. Kevin Kolb is (was?) the future of the franchise at QB. He is a mystery and will be until he plays.
3. Vick is the better player now, but I don’t trust him long term so no matter what he does this year I will never truly be comfortable with him as “the guy”.
Harsh words at the end. Vick did win me over with his play and everything I heard about him behind the scenes. He really did make an amazing life change. You have to remember that I wrote this about 90 days after Vick attended a party where there was a shooting. I had my doubts about whether he could truly escape his old life (because of ties to old friends as well as his idiot brother).
Another good blurb:
Good Vick, Bad Vick. Right now Michael Vick is 4th in the NFL with a QB rating of 105. He’s playing very well. He’s fun to watch and the offense is clicking. Life is good. What happens when he does struggle? All QBs have a bad game. Vick is going to have some game when we all yell at the TV “Get that bum outta there and put in Kolb!!!”. Andy won’t. He’ll stick with the starter, as he should. If Vick struggled the next week…what happens? If he has 3 bad games in a row, do we move to Kolb? Riding the hot hand is logical, but it opens the coach up to a dangerous situation because now the coach is making moves based on short term performance. Andy can no longer play the “that’s our plan” card and have it believed. As Derek pointed out, the most dangerous thing is what happens if Vick is pedestrian. Good Vick should stay the starter at this point. Bad Vick (several games) should lose the job. Up and down Vick will create a controversy where half the world says bench him and half says give the guy a chance to work his way back into a groove.
This paragraph ties in to the thinking in the piece Les wrote. Going with Vick was a monumental change.
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Re: 9/21/10
That may be the day Reid lost his way.
But the day Reid started losing his job was that 12/19/10 — the miraculous comeback victory over the Giants.
Perry Fewell exposed Vick and the Eagles’ offensive scheme, as run by Vick, with blitzes.
As T-Law’s written . . . that was Vick’s last great game in an Eagles uniform.
I think another moment that stood out to at least me in terms of the decline of Andy was over Donovan McNabb. I don’t know that there is any definitive evidence, but guys like Tommy insisted that when we were trying to trade McNabb, AR was resistant to doing that and in fact, refused to trade McNabb to a bad team which, again according to reports, cost us a better trade. I think Tommy even suggested that we could have gotten a first round pick from a team but AR didn’t pull the trigger because he didn’t want to send McNabb to a bad situation.
The argument in support of AR at the time was that AR supports his players and truly cares for them, so he sacrificed better value for good will. I never bought that argument. At the end of the day, he is the head coach of the Eagles. He has the 53 players on his own team to consider and it is his responsibility to ensure he maximizes their potential to win a superbowl. Sacrificing a better pick for good will hurts the potential of the team.
Again, I should point out that there was no concrete evidence that AR did this. Still, it was repeated many times by a few people that I at least consider knowledgeable. If in fact it was true, to me, that was the moment that AR began his decline.
I don’t think it’s quite that simple. There’s value to perpetuating the kind of climate where the players feel like they are genuinely cared for to compensate for the loss of value from not being ruthless. Free agents feel like it is a better place to play; other players are happier to play in such an environment
However, I think you can also make the case that making a football team too pleasant is a negative Players might come here or enjoy playing here because they know they can relax a little bit more than other places. Hey, if it doesn’t work out, I’ll have some say over where I’m traded at least.
Another thing that combined with that is that (it seems to me) a lot of players wanted to come here because we are a winning team. Everyone knows the Eagles are in the hunt every year and Andy Reid is a top notch coach, I just need to hop aboard.
Wow, kudo’s to 2010’s T-Law. Dead on. Kolb may not have worked out here in the end. I think he would have performed better in our system with Andy, MM, and Doug Pedersen than he has with the cards. But ultimately durability would have prevented him from truly ever being our franchise QB. And who knows where we would have gone from there (I bet Andy picks up Russel Wilson in the 2nd round, he really wanted that guy I understand).
I don’t think he lost his way when we made that switch. Honestly I think we turned south when we began “retooling” after JJ passed and we let Dawk go. We basically purged our glory-days roster over the course of 2 years. We let our guys go in free agency (most of the times rightly) and replaced them with other free agents (most of them not working out).
The other aspect of our decline is we had a few weak drafts. In order to retool in-house you must draft well. We didn’t, so we got loaded up on free agents and somewhere along the line lost our Identity. I truly don’t think any of it has to do with Mike Vick or Andy’s choice to go with him over Kevin Kolb. Perhaps that was very uncharacteristic of Andy, but I wouldn’t say THAT is when he sort of changed abandoned his winning ways.
The Eagles’ FO hates to use the word ‘rebuilding’, but that’s what the last few years have been. It’s too bad Reid wouldn’t see this iteration of roster come to fruition, or maybe it has and this iteration just sucks badly
You wonder how things would be different if JJ was still around coaching the D and/or we had a stable up-and-coming young potential franchise qb for the past three seasons. Look around the NFL for the past 15 years, successful coaches had either great defenses with phenomenal team drafted leaders (i.e., Tampa Bay, New England, Chicago, Baltimore, Pittsburgh) and/or franchise quarterbacks. It seems nobody is successful (for more than a year or two) without one of these attributes.
I for one will be bummed if/when Andy if fired. I think the media in general will have the strongest hand if Andy is fired. For every questionable decision Andy has made (hiring Juan as DC, trusting Vick to be an ascending player, etc.), the man has made hundreds of great decisions that many other coaches do not make.
For as bad as many think Andy is, can you imagine this team with any of the following coaching mistakes in recent years…Joe Gibbs, Steve Spurrier, Nick Saban, Bobby Petrino, Romeo Crennel, Josh McDaniels, Rex Ryan…I could go on but it depresses me. All I can say to those that want Andy gone, ask a Redskins or Cowboys fan what its like year after year with their coaching carousels.
Dave wrote:
“For as bad as many think Andy is, can you imagine this team with any of
the following coaching mistakes in recent years…Joe Gibbs, Steve
Spurrier, Nick Saban, Bobby Petrino, Romeo Crennel, Josh McDaniels, Rex Ryan…I could go on but it depresses me.”
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Those examples are exactly why Jeff Lurie has kept Reid all these years, despite a declining record of success. Some people agree with Lurie’s approach. Other’s don’t.
In the 7 full seasons since 2004, the Eagles have reached the NFC Title Game once, while making the playoffs 4 times (going 1-and-done twice).
Let’s toss out Reid’s first 6 years here. Looking just at those last 7, he’s still posted a pretty solid record of success for any coach.
The problem has been the last two season plus the final 2 games of 2009 — when the Cowboys blew out the Eagles (after Jamaal Jackson blew out his knee).
These past two season have been “unReid-like,” without a doubt. He made some questionable (or worse) choices for key assistant jobs. And, as Reid would be the first acknowledge — in Reid’s own upbeat way — the team’s drafting has not particularly good: Too many misses in the top rounds.
_____________
So consider the choice to keep Reid as a hypothetical involving “Team X”.
Team X, in the past 7 years, has been to the playoffs 4 times and the conference title game once. But the past two seasons, Team X has missed the playoffs, although barely last season, and struggled this season in at least some amount because of injuries
Do you fire the coach . . . and turn to a college offensive genius like Chip Kelly at Oregon, a young pro-style college but essentially untested guy like David Shaw at Stanford, an NFL retread like a Romeo Crennel. Or some “up and coming” assistant — like Josh McDaniels was.
At bottom, that’s really what’s facing Lurie. Whether to fire a guy who’s made the playoffs 4 of the last 7 years, and barely missed a 5th.
ACViking–
Please stop using reason and logic in your posts….. your are making my hazy thinking clear.
But you bring up good points- would we “normally” (as Philly fans) accept a coach that has been to the playoffs over %50 of the time in the last 7 years, while totally remaking the team? Foles will be our 5th QB in the last 3 years to take snaps; %60 of our starting OL is on the IR this year, and we can’t get pressure on the QB with a system that “specializes” in pressuring the QB.
The problem is, this anomally has happened the very same year that 8-8 is not acceptable……………… hard to say what happens next, but we pretty much already know the answer. A part of me hopes that Lurie allows Reid one last year, finish your contract, and see where the chips fall. I don’t think it’ll happen, but you never know.
There’s a lot of truth to all of that, but the “weight” of the last 2 seasons also is heavier than the last 7 or the total 14. By all accounts, the Eagles are a “talented” team. If that assumption is true, we shouldn’t have gone 8-8 last year or started 3-6 (heading for 6-10), this year.
When you put it like that… (potentially) playoffs in 4 of last 8 seasons and almost a 5th… Don’t you stick with that guy?
The ironic part of this is that Andy and Marty are considered QB grooming gurus. With Vick most likely not coming back next year, this team is going to need a coach capable of mentoring and developing a young QB (whether its Foles or a draft pick next year).
Good stuff!
Focusing exclusively on terribly flawed teams like the Cowgirls or ‘Skins is a selective observation fallacy. Why stop there and not mention the Steelers (finding an unknown defensive assistant from a team that ran a completely different defensive scheme), the 49ers, Patriots (before he was a “genius” Belichick was a failure as HC in Cleveland, and the Pats were extemely successful in finding talent in the draft–Peyton Manning might still have nightmares of Ty Law–and FA signings), Packers or the Giants.
The current Eagles organization is basically an extension of Reid, from personnel evaluation to coaching, and it does not look good. Domo wrote an article regarding the # of Eagles who will likely not return next year, and I think he could have probably included more players. I put credence in a statement Bill Parcels said some years ago, “You are what your record says you are” and the Eagles look like a 3-6 team with 3-6 talent and coaching–players displaying lack of effort in short-arming passes and failing in football basics like tackling. The Eagles look like they are suffering the football version of “inbreeding depression.” The insularity leads to no one or nothing challenging Reid’s way of thinking: poor clock management, poor play calling (including poor in-game adjustments), poor player evaluations (think about it, if the Eagles had good back ups would the SP unit be ranked last or close to last?)
If Reid is let go, I hope Lurie cleans shop and let’s Roseman go as well. I don’t think Reid needs to be around to help with finding a successor. As an owner, Lurie is around a bunch of NFL people (other owners, coaches, GMs, and executives) who can shed light on who is up and coming. Lurie and Banner did identify Reid as a talented position coach.
“As an owner, Lurie is around a bunch of NFL people (other owners, coaches, GMs, and executives) who can shed light on who is up and coming.”
I believe these were up and coming coaches in the past few years:
Tony Sparano
Raheem Morris
Steve Spagnuolo
Todd Haley
Jack Del Rio
Jim Caldwell
Steve Spagnuolo
Josh McDaniels
Brad Childress
Mike Singletary
Eric Mangini
Jim Zorn
Don’t forget Jeff’s first up and coming assistant hired as head coach…Ray Rhodes.
Totally agree with Les. I always thought AR was a very trustworthy guy. I think this all changed on the day he chose Vick. Nothing against Michael or the hard work he put in, but Kolb was the starter and worked hard to earn his spot. I really thought it was the wrong message to a young team to go with the hot hand.
I know I disagree with Roob on when Reid lost his way. I wonder what that Eminem(less) universe looks like?
Blame the Lions for firing Marty.
If you look back further in your posts you’d get to your thoughts on the the triumvirate of AR, MM and #5 on EaglesBlitz. Did anything really change when #5 left? RZ success? Less love in the big play? Anything? #5 imploded, but it is not like the other 2 soared.
Good that you mentioned those Lions though, because we sure are looking like them 😉
I see Reid’s biggest mistake as hiring his former Oline coach as the DC. I was drinking the kool aid until that point. That kind of unorthodox move just opens everyone involved up to criticism. Talking about perspective, how should the players on defense feel when they probably have more experience than the coach, especially during a slump?
And Reid, an offensive minded coach, had no business picking an Dline scheme and sticking an inexperience coach with it. It all sounded pretty in theory, O was going to score a bunch of point and forcing the other O into passing downs, where wide 9 would thrive.
You hit the nail on the head with the Vick piece Tommy, and I would like to hear what your take on the Castillo hire was/is.
hey tommy, some thoughts that i have been going over for a while…
back when AR first started here, the emphasis for the team was on both sides of the line – OL and DL, specifically the OL. we brought in big FA and high draft picks and we had what i think was a pretty great OL for a long time – Tra, Runyan, mayberry, etc. can’t remember all the names now… wow its been a while.
but also key back then was the relative lack of emphasis on other positions – think WR.
when did all of that change? now, we have great skill players and a pretty terrible OL. i wonder if there is any correlation to the change in philosophy to the change in the team’s record over the years.
then again, maybe i’m crazy and i’m making all of this up?
While I can agree with your point, and what your saying- Andy still values the OL and DL. Think about it (when healthy) Peters, Mathis, Kelce, Watkins (1st round), Herremans. That’s a good, if not great OL when functioning together. Three draft picks, and two free agent signings.
Same with the DL. Cole, Patterson (healthy)/Jenkins, Cox, Babin/Graham. A few draft picks, some free agents. I think they found a balance between skill position/linemen, but we’ve been struck by some major injuries this year. It is pretty uncommon to have %60 of your OL on the IR
The OL was excellent last year.
Peters – Mathis – Kelce – Watkins – Herremans was one of the best units in the league. We’re down to just 1 starter. Reid has never seen it this bad. No team is prepared for that.
I don’t think the OL was excellent, quite. It was great when allowed to really run, but it wasn’t that good at pass blocking–part of why the first half of 2011 was so bad was because the interior, Kelce and Watkins, were learning on the job, and Kelce is too small. And that lack of effective shortrange interior play killed us in the Red Zone because we couldn’t switch to basic power concepts and disasters like failed influence @ Atlanta or Ronnie Brown’s Big Moment ensued.
thanks guys, guess i am just crazy after all.
I don’t think you’re crazy, but I do think we paid attention to our O-line, just not as much as previously.
What if: we drafted an OT in 2009 when Maclin was falling down the draft board? Would that have been ludicrous? We spent a 1st round pick plus more to acquire Jason Peters that year. We could have also (around same area as Maclin) acquired Michael Oher… who as far as I know has been serviceable at RT.
In that scenario, Todd stays at LG and you probably don’t get Evan Mathis. I also assume this means we wouldn’t have felt the need to reach to draft Watkins, and could have plugged that spot with McGlynn or someone else as a later draft pick.
At any rate, I think we had a solid O-line coming into this year when it was still projected Peters-Mathis-Kelce-Watkins-Herremans. I think this team would look quite different with those guys on the field.
But if we go revisionist history and say our O-line would be:
Peters-Herremans-Kelce-McGlynn/Vandervelde-Oher… maybe that is a better o-line.
I don’t know just trying to toss some ideas around.
Tell me more about the 2014 Nick Foles!
I’m working on that.
Roob had a quick update on the OL as of this morning:
Watkins RG Kelly RT Dunlap Lt.
J Mac has a very long interview on PE.com. He will play. Incredibly he has developed Andy’s nervous throat-clearing. Hung in there well. Handled those set-up questions pretty well, but it reminded me of a boxer stuck in the corner for a really long time, get out of there man!
Very funny with the boxing analogy.
Regarding Reuben Frank’s article, did he purposely leave out Lurie’s off-season comments regarding this season:
“An 8-8 record would not be good enough for Andy Reid to return. This team has all the ingredients to get to the Super Bowl,” Lurie said, according to Philly.com. “But it takes one bad game to end it. I expect a substantially improved team.”
A vocal minority has (always) expressed their concern with the future of the Eagles with Reid as HC. This off-season, the owner basically came out and said the same thing. This team has regressed significantly and shows no signs of improvement. There is no pulse to this team (no heart). Reid’s fingerprints are all over this team and his poor decision making has brought this season to the brink of disaster.
Reid should step down and take a (couple) season(s) off. After his off-season loss nobody would blame him if he took some time to reconnect with his family.
Honestly, Lurie’s a coward. Andy SHOULD have standards to keep his job. But why weren’t those kept private between him and Reid. Why create all this drama with a public ultimatum? Obviously this team wilted in the toxic environment caused by the Dream team BS. Andy Reid’s son had JUST died. Jason Peters had just torn his achilles for the second time. Didn’t we have enough headlines? Didn’t we have enough adversity?
Honestly to get the heat off himself, why else? Like the boat owner waiting in a life raft from a safe distance seeing if the ship will sink or not. Just in case. “Is it safe to get back on yet?” It was just a selfish PR move to save face with the public. I get it, you don’t want the fans to check out. But how about some faith in your fans, Jeff. We’re still here, with an unhealthy love for this team. This ain’t Dallas.
Don’t get me wrong, I think as far as owners go he does a lot of good things we can be proud of. This one really didn’t sit well with me. I’m in the minority on this one I’m sure.
Wow – I thought I was the only one who thought this way. When he made them I thought the comments were chicken(poop) and that he was just trying to appease a bunch of people instead of showing leadership and instilling confidence in the organization.
I’ve always thought of Lurie as one of the better owners in the league, but to me this was a Jerry Jones moment for him (not a good one).
If the OL was intact, this probably would be an 11-5 team that would go deep in the playoffs. People overreact to Vick, the same way they overreacted in 2010.
Vick has strengths and limitations, his strength is his athleticism, but more importantly his arm, he’s simply a better passer than McNabb ever was, but his height and inexperience (Eli had more pass attempts after four years than Vick did in six years in Atlanta, and of course, he had zero coaching at Virgina Tech) limited what Vick can do. With a solid OL and good running game, he wouldn’t have to do that much, sorta Alex Smith but more wide open, with no OL, an up and down defense (remember, he won the Detroit game before the defense blew it), and an inconsistent running game, he was just asked to do too much. And the physical pounding I think had a bigger impact than people realize, I’ll bet better doctors would have benched him by the bye week – his head slammed the turf on numerous occasions, can’t believe there weren’t neurological impacts.
Unfortunately, AR never learned from McNabb, don’t ask limited QBs to do too much, don’t over complicate the offensive scheme, don’t get enthralled by the big play. Develop an offense that permits consistent execution, not one that’s a roller coaster, big play or bust.
Kolb would have forced AR and MM to develop a “punch and play” offense, instead they built one around big arms that proved vulnerable to teams that took away the deep throw and forced the Eagles to execute.
If you want to see offenses built around execution, just watch the Falcons or Saints. Balanced schemes, lots of short passes, power runs, spread the ball around, gee, like the Eagles used to be back before TO. Sure handed receivers who catch the ball on 3rd down and can use their bodies to shield the ball. Sorta the anti-MM.
austinfan:
Your comments are among the most thoughtful on T-Law’s blog.
Question: You’ve said this is, or could have been, an 11-5 team but for the decimation of the O-line. Is that before or after Peter’s injury?
That aside, what about the defense? Especially the D-line?
Would having Peters (which I’m assuming you meant in your opening line) have impacted the defense’s performance? Or just allowed the Eagles to play “shoot out” — the way AR built the team to play?
The defense has been solid this year, not great, but with an offense that scored points and moved the ball consistently, more than good enough.
Peters was the killshot, combined with Bell being the biggest disappointment I’ve ever seen in FA, no one expected an allpro performance, but how about basic competency?
Once the OL went, MM did nothing to protect Vick. Some of the worst coaching I’ve ever seen, “we’ll just pretend there’s nothing wrong here.”
Weird thing was, the Dallas game was the first one where Vick was predominantly shotgun, the way he probably should have been when Kelly began starting.
One thing I don’t really understand about this conversation is that couldn’t Lurie absolve Andy because he had so many injuries in one spot this year? I think really following along with the wins and losses is highly misleading. I don’t think Andy’s staying or going depending on whether a miracle happens and he makes the playoff or not. And I don’t think it’s determined by the losses he’s had. I think, mostly, this has already been predetermined, and is mainly over broad managerial issues like replacing JJ.
And Les Bowen is insane. Most other coaches would have done nothing different, and the ones who would have, like, oh…Leslie Frazier, do not have leeway to beat up the golden boy. Tim Tebow starting in Denver was a panic move. Michael Vick was a former pro-bowler returning to form. Tebow would not have started over Manning, and Kolb had zero shot at staying a starter over Vick. All those wildcat plays with Vick? Reid never intended to stay with Kolb. You see why during his stint in Arizona red. Couldn’t keep a starting job from a crappy fifth rounder with nothing more to say but that he has a good arm with the bare minimum of accuracy. And oh! Healthy!
Every thread just seems to boil down to Vick, no matter what the circumstances. Andy talk? Nah, let’s not bother the one-track minds and rant about Vick. The weird thing is, for as much talk as anyone definitely leaving, I don’t think the chances of Vick leaving are all that high–as in the only way he goes is if Lurie doesn’t want to deal with the “controversy” of Vick. Thing is, I don’t think the Eagles are like Chiefs or the Buccaneers, or any of the other outfits that are only marginally interested in winning. Thus, I think Vick only goes if the Eagles feel that they can get a comfortably good replacement. I don’t see any FA or college QB that the Eagles would feel comfortable hiring (and who would be available).
One thing I never see mentioned is what’s going on in AR’s head. I mean, you lose your kid at training camp; how in gods name can anyone put that on the back burner and mentally be ready to coach a professional football team? Just dealing with adult kids on drugs takes its toll on you, I know.
AR should have flat out taken this season off, I for one do not want to see him go like this.
I agree. I think some of his failures this year is definitely about his kid dying and how he went, and it’s messing up how he’s communicating with his staff.
Agreed; as someone that has lived through this (addiction, not death!), I can’t imagine trying to do one of the toughest jobs (pressure wise) while grieving and dealing with the loss of a son.
In a sense, the battle is over for him (Garrett). The struggle, the search, and the harshness for the parents. However, they have to deal with a different sense of struggle now, and life won’t ever be the same. I think Andy should have taken time off; a month, two, the year…….. I hate to see it end this way.
“Roob also had an interesting nugget that Lurie could possibly ask for
Reid’s advice in picking a new coach, should he get fired. To some this
will seem ridiculous, if not insane”
That is full-blown, Colonel Kurtz-level insane!
It should go more like this:
Willard (Lurie): They told me that you had gone totally insane, and that your methods were unsound.
Kurtz (Reid): Are my methods unsound?
Willard (Lurie): I don’t see any method at all, sir.
Here’s a really good article on Chip Kelly and the big question facing the Eagles and probably 8 other teams this offseason: College Star vs. NFL-Retread vs. NFL up-and-comer.
http://www.footballperspective.com/chip-kelly-is-as-likely-to-be-the-next-great-coach-as-anyone-else/
I’m still not so sure about how Kelly will translate to the NFL game but he does make some excellent points about why he could work better than other college coaches in the past and other candidates currently in the NFL. Also, no previous SB winning HC has ever gone to a new team and won another SB. So just hiring a Gruden or Cowher and getting them to reproduce the championship season they had in Tampa or Pittsburgh is highly unlikely. There are 5 head coaches who have been to the Superbowl with different teams though.