Reid, Vick, and the Future – Update 37
Posted: November 12th, 2012 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 65 Comments »Jeff Lurie made it clear early in 2012 that 8-8 was unacceptable. He wanted to see improvement. The Eagles currently sit at 3-6. The Eagles need to go 6-1 to get to 9-7. And just getting to that record won’t be enough. Lurie wanted to see the Eagles get back to being a good team. Sometimes the final record will be misleading about the quality of a team. This isn’t a bad luck 3-6 team. Oh, there is some of that involved, but mostly this is a team that shoots itself in the foot. Repeatedly.
The Eagles going 6-1 or 7-0 would be a miracle. Seeing this team play at a high level would be a major miracle.
I can’t imagine Lurie has enjoyed 2012 at all. Even the 3-1 start had to be concerning. Mike Vick was a turnover machine back then. The team needed comebacks to win all 3 games. The team played well vs Baltimore, if you take away the turnovers, but there wasn’t one game where the Eagles looked like the team Lurie, Reid, or we expected.
The drama of this year also has likely worn on Lurie. ReidWatch is no fun, except for those who flat out hate Reid. Even some people that want him gone don’t like really talking about it all that much. Reid has been such a good coach for such a long time that it feels weird to address the situation, which is likely to happen.
Reid can save his job, but you would find that scenario stored in the same file cabinet as GQ hiring me as a model and that leading to my marriage to Olivia Wilde. Hey…if the scenarios play out, maybe I’ll get Big Red to be my best man. Something tells me I won’t have to worry about that situation coming up.
Some have asked about firing Reid now. Makes no sense. There is no benefit to it. Let the man coach out the season. He’s earned the right to go out after the season is over. This also ties into the question about Mike Vick and the rest of the season. Should Vick sit so we can watch Foles?
No.
Sounds like Nick will play this week vs the Skins. Reid has to see how he played and if the team won and take those factors into consideration. If the team wins and gets to 4-6, Reid has to go with the player he thinks gives him the best chance of winning. That could be Vick. If the team loses and Foles struggles, Reid could again turn back to Vick.
Because Reid is coaching to save his job, I think he has the right to stick with veteran players and focus on each game. When the Eagles do get the 9th loss (seems pretty inevitable at this point), I do think it would be fair for Lurie and Roseman to push for Reid to play Foles and other young players.
Guys like Vick, Nnamdi Asomugha, and Demetress Bell are goners. Jason Babin, Mike Patterson, and Cullen Jenkins will be more complicated. I know Babin is struggling right now, but he had 30 sacks the previous 2 years. You need to be careful about cutting that guy too quickly. Make sure he’s done before sending him on his way.
The Eagles have young players behind these guys that it would be good to see in action. That said, don’t expect Reid to ever empty the bench for the heck of it. He still believes in coaching to win. He’d need pressure from Lurie to play all the guys, especially at once. There is logic to Reid’s thinking. If you sit a bunch of older starters, players get the sense that games don’t mean as much and they change the way they practice, prepare, and play. Things become more individual and less about team. Even in a crappy season, you want the players to stay focused. Last year’s Tampa team checked out mentally in November. They lost their last 5 games by an average of 23 points. That’s bad.
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Some of you want to know who the Eagles should hire to replace Reid. I still prefer to wait until December to fully get into that discussion.
Some have asked about the draft. If the Eagles do make changes, we’ll need to see who the new coaches are to figure out what systems they run and where the holes are on this team.
A lot could change this year.
* * * * *
NFL Gimpy posted his new MAQB column. He’s got good stuff on the SF/STL tie, rookie QBs, and much more.
_
“Let the man coach out the season. He’s earned the right to go out after the season is over.”
I agree. The only reason I think Andy should be fired is if he refuses to play the young guys (especially Foles) once they’re *officially* eliminated from playoff contention. Otherwise, what’s the point? If we’re officially eliminated and Vick is starting instead of Foles, that would be such a waste. Why waste that time when you could evaluate Foles?
Now I realize I’m jumping the gun here, but I just don’t see why Andy would want to start Foles (barring he sees Foles as the better option for HIMSELF, which seems unlikely to me) or the younger players. Even if they’re officially eliminated, I wouldn’t think he’d want to play young guys if he felt the older guys were better. It’s not like he’s going to give up on the season.
This is a case where Andy’s best interest as the coach are much different than the team’s best interests, and I think that’s a dangerous situation. I will be very upset if Roseman/Lurie don’t push Reid to start the younger guys once they’re officially eliminated. And if Andy refuses to oblige, at that point he needs to be fired. The team’s best interests are more important than his.
I am hopeful that atleast Curry and Marsh get some play timing this week, the secondary cannot play any worse, and Curry wouldn’t be any worse then Tapp. I don’t really know what other young players besides those 2 and Foles, and maybe getting polk a carry and playing Nate Menkin you can make. I don’t see them signing Cunningham or McNutt off the PS and dropping another young guy in Johnson, unless Avant’s injury is more serious or they decide to cut ties with Gilyard which means whoever they signed would be inactive because Johnson would need to field punts, and Cooper is needed on special teams and might qualify as a young player still. I think playing the young guys pertains mostly to Foles and Curry, and Marsh if you can wrap your head around taking NA out.
If they want to get Marsh on the field, the could use a 4 CB set and let Nnamdi audition in a safety role.
Marsh played CB for a few snaps vs DAL. Came on plays when Nnamdi was blitzing up the middle.
Anyone know last Sunday, if foles gets hurt who comes in to qb? ( Edwards was inactive and avant I assume having left the game with an injury, was unavailable)
DJax maybe. Go Wildcat with him.
I asked Caplan on twitter and he said DJax with Wildcat also.
Caplan is a smart guy.
I thought it would be Mike Bartrum …….
I actually thought Mark Simoneau would be next since he kicks field goals and all…Seriously I have questioned why we don’t use the WC with Djax from time to time
Soooo….
The Giants have to go 3-3 for their final 6 games and we have to go 6-1 in our final 7.
The Giants play GB, BAL, PHI, NO, ATL, WAS
We play: WAS, CAR, DAL, TAM, CIN, WAS, NYG
I’d still have faith in this team if we weren’t missing Todd Herremans, Jason Peters, Jason Kelce, and Danny Watkins.
I’d put $20 on Dallas winning the division.
Dirty money. Yuk!
What are the chances that the new HC will:
Keep Mudd
Keep Chung
Or
Employ using a system for players like Mathis and Kelce?
Mudd was only here for 2-years as I remember and most of that was due to Reid. I high doubt he is here next year.
I think Mudd will retire or should we say go back to retirement. Cannot really judge Chung either way, he was an asst to Mudd and Castillo, I do doubt he is the next Oline Coach however, I think someone more experience but younger then Mudd will be in play. I think Kelce could play in any system with the experience he now has, coming out of a college there was a lot of questions, and he has answered them well. Mathis I doubt is an eagle next year, age and contract go against him, plus he is playing worse then anyone has stated
I’d be surprised if Mathis isn’t still with the Eagles next season.
With 3 assumed starters for next year on IR, and current depth not looking good I can’t see that the team will have resources free to improve on the team’s best guard.
I’d expect that there will be someone brought in to compete with Watkins and Mathis, but I’d say Watkins is more at risk, given that the he wont have been picked by the new HC.
granted our OL as a whole has been pretty awful this year with all the injuries, but Mathis has been the only not-consistently-terrible spot on that OL the whole year.
some argument can be made that he looked great last season because he was playing next to Jason Peters. by that same argument, part of why he might not be living up to those standards is because he is playing next to King Dunlap/Demetress Bell & Dallas Reynolds.
New HC would name Asst. coaches. I have a feeling a new HC would clean house eliminating the “Reid Culture” and the FO would support him
Cleaning house doesn’t generally mean getting rid of folks who do a good job with their assigned role. If Chung is a quality O-line coach then the new HC would be crazy to try to replace him. I would be willing to bet that Chung sticks.
Why would you doubt Mathis is an Eagle next year? He has a very reasonable contract and he’s PFF’s highest rated guard in the league. He’s playing great and he’s doing it between two god awful players who he has to pick up slack for.
Yes, but how many TD’s does he have!? How about interceptions or sacks? He’s not producing, CUT HIM!
Mathis has been our best offensive lineman this year, and based on that, you certainly have to keep him. Having said that though, the belief coming into last season was that Mathis was a journeyman and an average starting olineman at best before coming here and that he has succeeded because of “Mudd’s system”. I think it is certainly debatable whether or not that is true still, but even though I think Mathis can be a good player, it will be very interesting to see what kind of success he will have if Mudd and Chung are no longer the oline coaches next year. Kelce is another guy that will be important to watch depending on the coach.
I disagree, Tommy. Reid will go with Foles – it’s his last, best chance. With Vick, he still has to make the playoffs (so at least 9-7), plus win at least one playoff game – no chance in hell going down that path.
But with Foles, say we go 5-2 to finish 8-8. Reid then makes the case to Lurie that 1) the team finished strong (Lurie already bought one that once), 2) the injuries to the o-line was the real killer to the season (a fair argument), and 3) most importantly, he’s developed the next franchise QB in Foles. Voila – contract extended.
Yea, it’s a real long-shot with Foles, but it’s better than no shot with Vick.
You could be right. Andy isn’t doing things in the Andy way anymore. We can only guess.
After looking at Chip Kellys background and the fact he is already 48, his only real big time school in College has been Oregon, wouldn’t it be a bit concerning considering the price tag he will come with to go with a not sure thing like Kelly? Over someone like Cowher or Dungy who are proven winners or a upcoming NFL HC with NFL cordinater expierce in a Ray Horton(AZ Dcord) or Mccoy(Denver Ocord)?
Tommy, just one question. I’m waiting of course for the DGR of the game against the Boys. Is there a reason you didn’t do the DGR against the Saints, besides great depression and risks of exploding your TV watching again the game? It’s usually really useful for me, to try to analyze the players coldly.
My week without a DGR is like watching a game without a PBR.
I’ll post the Saints one. Partially written out. Week got sidetracked for a few reasons. Dallas should be done tonight or Wed. AM.
During the first four weeks, I looked at those hard fought games as a good things. Those three wins were against (what were thought of at the time) very good defenses. They were comeback victories. They were not predicated upon the Eagles blowing out the opposition. When was the last time the Eagles had 3 comeback victories in non-shootouts in a season?
The flaws seemed easy to fix. Get the o-line solidified and eliminate the red-zone turnovers and silly fumbles. The INTs would decrease with better protection, and the fumbles could be stopped when desperation scrambles decreased. Vick was still shaking off the rust from only playing 6 snaps in the preseason. Reid righted the ship before. He could do it again.
The disintegration of the offensive line did this team in. Losing Peters was hard but manageable. Losing Kelce gave the o-line a lobotomy. Watkins and Herremans were just the hot fudge and cherry on top. Would we have won the SuperBowl? Not even I am that optimistic, but I think we would have gotten a WC and maybe even won the East.
I had such a good feeling coming into this season. I will let everyone know next time I have a good feeling so we can all brace ourselves for the impending disappointment. Just something from the (once) optimistic camp.
Do warn us so we can stock up on booze and drugs.
I think a lot of us believed that narrative back in September. Remember how those hard fought wins were going to harden our troops for the challenges they would face in the playoffs?
Exactly. It is amazing how the narrative has shifted from players being hardened being soft and quitting on the team. Honestly, if the o-line had not been decimated and Vick concussed, I would still think there is a chance to make the playoffs. There are just too many injuries for that to be possible now.
I’m confused why recreating the 2011 Bucs is a bad thing. They got a top 5 pick that they used to acquire Mark Barron and Doug Martin. They got rid of players who didn’t fit what they wanted.
I’d much rather play the kids (Marsh, Curry, Kelly) over the vets (Nnamdi, Tapp/Babin, Bell) and see what happens. What’s the worst case scenario? We’ve lost 5 in a row!
Not all teams that fall apart are put back together. I’d need to study it and see if they are about average or are a major anomaly.
Other issue is that there are some BAD teams this year. Just playing young guys is no guaranty to a top 10, let alone a top 5 pick.
It sucks but you’re right, you have to let Reid coach the way he wants to coach. Whatever record he gets at the end he has to own solely. Can’t Dan Snyder him now.
That being said, if Foles plays on Sunday he will have his chance to earn a job.
i’m probably going to catch a lot of flak for this one…
but if we are going to be critical of jason babin, why can’t we be just as critical of trent cole?
he has been nearly invisible this year. he has had at least 8 sacks every year since his rookie year when he had 5. he has 1.5 sacks after 9 games this year. its not just the sacks, either. his tackles are also down. he has 12 total tackles on the year!
(stats from http://www.nfl.com/player/trentcole/2506482/profile)
trent has been one of my favorite eagles for a very long time, but i fear that his play has finally started to come down.
I think prior production compared to Babin and that we are stuck with Cole for atleat another season and he dont make stupid comments to the press
regarding past production, i think it is a matter of comparing trent cole’s very good, consistent production (always around 10 sacks for the past 6 years) vs babin’s boom-or-bust production (12 sacks & 18 sacks the last two years and a whole lot of not much before that.
no matter how you are judging their past performance, you have to admit that they both are simply not putting up the numbers this season – tackles or sacks. maybe other stats like hurries and qb hits and TFL might tell a different story, but to me, its like our two starting DEs are doing very, very little for this defense.
both cole & babin are under contract for next season, right?
i think we are going to see something like this:
AR leaves the team in some way.
new coach is hired.
new coach brings in his own staff – OC & DC and so on.
new DC decides what sort of defensive system they want to run.
the defensive players will be evaluated as how they fit into that system and their estimated production with that system.
And I think that’s why Cole sticks. He’s not a wide 9 gimmick at DE he is a real DE. It may be that his physical traits are on the decline, but I believe he will find a way to work with it. More than that… I think Cole’s lack of production is coming from the desire to deliver something big and turn the tide in a game. I could be way off base, but I think he may be “trying to hard” instead of just playing the game the way he knows it should be played.
Yep, I think Cole’s awareness is leaps and bounds ahead of Babin’s. In the years before wide 9, Cole always had a knack for sniffing out RB screens. Now, he’s just mindlessly rushing upfield every play because that’s what DEs in wide 9 do
yea, but we can get out of Babins contract easy while Cole just got an extension and I think a guy like Cole have much more goodwill saved up because of his behavior. For me Cole is sorta like Dawkins, he really need to have more than 1 bad year before I would consider getting rid of him.
according to eaglescap.com, you are right with the numbers.
if i am reading this correctly…
babin cut after 2012 season – 600 K dead money
cole cut after 2012 season – 6.4 M dead money
Cole is at least still a good run defender. Babin isn’t. You can keep Cole for an extra year because he provides toughness that this team sorely needs. If Curry shows up in 2013, you can keep both of them fresh.
you are right
I think it’s totally fair to question Cole’s play. Like you mentioned, he’s been less effective versus the run, as well as getting less pressure on the passer. He’s had a significant drop in form this year. Hate to say it, but he’s hit the magic number…
The drop off in production is pretty steep. I feel like there’s something else at work here other than losing a step. Teams are using the aggressive wide 9 against us. The quick dump off to the RB in the flats has killed us in the past few games.
My advice to Andy comes from Eomer:
“Look for your friends, but do not trust to hope. It has forsaken these lands.”
You’re the man Mac, hahaha.
If I may:
“One does not simply walk into the post season”
Haha yes… well played!
Brilliant. +1.
What the hell happened to Megan Fox? Be consistent man!
Got knocked up by Brian Austin Green. She’s off the team. Joe Banner philosophy. Go with youth.
Kate Upton?
She just had a baby. I’m trying to show some respect. Gave her a few months off.
Wow, FMLA leave from being stalked? We are living in an enlightened age
Classy with a capital “K”.
New rules: Everyone must now tippy-toe through the rest of the season. We know granpa’s dying, we see how jaundice his skin looks but if you’re going to speak the horrible C word, make sure you only whisper “cancer.” We’ll talk more openly after the pastor has given last rites, probably in December.
I know it is dopey. As fans we don’t have to care about Reid and his feelings, but just doesn’t feel right to me. When things are more defined in December, that will change.
“The past is past, the future is now.” ~Clem (from Joe Dirt)
My first thumbs down!!! I hope it’s from that blowhard shao kahn, shae butter, shehatehim, whatever his name is.
Re: Wide 9 info
Only the Eagles and Lions run the W-9 as their base defense (with some tweaks).
In 2011, the Eagles were No. 1 in sacks. The Lions were No. 12.
In 2012, through 9 games, the Eagles are No. 27. The Lions are No. 19.
Read into those numbers what you will.
I feel sorry for Andy. He’s a guy who came so close so many times, but just couldn’t get over the summit. By all accounts he is a good man, incredibly hard working and exteremely faithful to his players. When he reflects over his time with the Eagles, I’d have to believe it’s going to be painful.The price he has paid for his career is enormous. Besides knowing he’s on his way to being fired and practically publicly flogged, he is leaving his job with one less son in his life. Any father in his shoes would question the impact of a time-consuming career on his family. I don’t excuse Reid’s professional mistakes but, damn, the guy must be going through hell.
It certainly has been a rough ride for Reid. I can’t help but wonder if he would consider writing a book at the end of his career talking about what he went through and what guiding principles got him through it.
I bet Lurie is pissed because he is constantly in the news now as we wind down this crappy season. He likes to be behind the scenes (no Jerry Jones anyway) and he probably hates the attention.
You stay away from my Olivia!
Haha