MNF, Evening Talk
Posted: December 3rd, 2012 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 63 Comments »WAS vs NYG…who ya got? I’m torn. I hate ’em both, obviously. Do I want the Giants to get humble pie? Do I want the Skins to enjoy success or would I rather have them continue to suffer? Alas, there is no right answer.
Who are you guys pulling for?
No new info on the day’s news. Wanted to put up a new post since the comments section was getting a bit long. There are lots of good opinions in there so go read if you missed them.
The one nugget we got at Andy’s PC today was that Nick Foles would be the starter here on out. Glad to hear that. Let Mike Vick get healthy and ready for 2013. He’ll likely be gone, but whether he does stick here or go elsewhere, a clean bill of health will help him out. If he got another concussion in the final month, that could hurt his value quite a bit.
We don’t know if Foles is the answer so seeing him play is the key. Last night was good, but one game is just one game. We need to see what he does in the final month to have any idea if he is worth trying as the starter in 2013 or if he is clearly just a backup (which actually wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world for a 3rd round pick).
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Here is an interesting anti-Jim Washburn piece that was done by Pro Football Weekly’s Eric Edholm. Why is it interesting? He wrote this last week, on 11/28.
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I’m going with Skins. They’re usually so pathetic that they are difficult to hate, and Eli annoys me.
Anyway: Nick Foles has not played well at all in the regular season. He has had 4/5 OL, #1 WR, #1 RB missing. He is a 3rd round rookie. His passer rating: 73.3.
Vick? 79.2.
Foles may not be the future, but Vick definitely is not.
Foles also has had scaled down play calling. I have yet to see Foles line up in an empty set. Vick would’ve performed much better if he was running this offense. Reid’s stubbornness led to the downfall of Vick. If Foles does not show anything more than what I’ve seen in the next 4 games, I would not mind seeing Vick behind center with a coach who will run the ball.
Running the ball opens up the play action pass. Vick can chuck the rock…. hmmm. So you are saying if we had run the ball like this all along we would be 8 and 3? Blasphemy.
Snicker….
I know it’s a crazy notion using the run to set up the pass, but hell it’s not like what we were doing was working. Why not try something crazy?
I think that’s true to a degree, and Reidhinweg never scaled back for more than a game. Sometimes only for a couple quarters.
A coach who might be less skilled at Xs and Os but more adept at adjusting midstream to players’ strengths might do this team a lot of good.
The think that impressed me the most against the Cowboys was his TD pass to Cooper. I think its highly impressive for him to have a play calling against a certain coverage and when the Cowboys showed a different coverage, he changed the play at the LOS.
Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, the Mannings, etc. line up in empty sets and execute pass happy gameplans all the time, and none of them are struggling to crack 80 in QB rating. Heck, for that matter so do second-tier guys like Dalton and Romo. Donovan McNabb and Jeff Garcia ran this very same offense with more success than Vick has, while working with far inferior skill position talent. Even Kevin Kolb, who has since been exposed as a mediocre talent at best, did better in his few starts here than Vick has this season. The playcalling may have some impact, but you’re fooling yourself if you conclude that Vick isn’t a very limited quarterback. Add in the facts that QB rating doesn’t take into account Vick’s propensities to fumbling and taking bad sacks, and hence Vick’s subpar score isn’t even indicative of how bad he’s been, and that he’ll be 33 and his best asset, his foot speed, is extremely likely to continue to decline, and I think we can say that Vick is not the future.
Foles, I’m not sure about yet. He has some talent, but he also lacks touch on some of his throws and makes an awful lot of dumb decisions. Since he’s a 23 y/o rookie there is at least some hope that these flaws can be corrected. I’m not banking on it and I’d be scouting the Matt Barkleys and Matt Flynns of the world very hard, but there’s at least a chance.
You completely missed my point about the empty set. I am not saying that we shouldn’t go to an empty set. I don’t think going to an empty set when teams are blitzing and your O line has been struggling is a good idea. I’ve heard people compliment Foles for checking to a run call against the blitz, but it’s much harder to do that when there’s no RB on the field. When Vick was QB there were numerous 3rd downs where neither Shady nor BB was on the field. In the Cowboys game, we ran time and time again on 3rd down. Hell, they ran it on 3rd & 19. To say Foles and Vick are running the same offense is ridiculous. I’ve read on this site how bad the play calling was repeatedly with Vick in the game. The play calling since Foles stepped in has been so much better. We ran more screen passes in the Skins game than we ran the entire year with Vick. The direct snap to BB had not been seen when Vick was in the game. I believe this team’s best shot to succeed next year will be to lean on what has the potential to be an amazing running game. If that’s the case I would prefer Vick behind center. When given time, Vick can throws lasers down the field, and the PA pass will be so much more effective when teams actually fear the rushing attack. Foles has a tendency to let balls hang up there, and he sometimes sees things late. Granted Vick may do that as well, but he has an arm capable of getting a late thrown deep ball down the field much quicker. If Foles is the QB I will undoubtedly support him, but let’s fool ourselves that inserting him into the offense was the sole reason for our successes on offense the other night. Remember Vick moved the ball very well against this same Cowboys team before getting hurt.
Just like you can’t put all the blame for the poor performance of the offense early in the year solely on Vick’s failings, you can’t dismiss the improvement of the offense under Foles as having nothing to do with him. Yes the play calling has balanced out, but Foles, at 23 and as a rookie, already makes better pre-snap reads and audible calls than Vick did as a 32 year old, however many year vet. He’s got more than enough arm strength and most importantly of all…room and potential for improvement.
Look at this statement you made; “He sometimes sees things late”. He’s a ROOKIE. He’s still getting his feet wet. And dismissing the counter-argument to this by saying that Vick’s got a laser for an arm is worthless too, considering all the turnovers he commits.
The problem with your line of thinking is you’re trying to make an apples to apples comparison with Vick and Foles, when in reality it’s more like comparing an apple to an apple that you picked 3 days ago, chopped up and put in a pie, which you then ate. Vick and Foles are comparable NOW, which for Vick is pretty sad. The massive difference between the two is that Vick isn’t going to get better, and instead will almost assuredly get worse, while Foles at least has the possibility of continued growth.
You like Vick. I get that. And if we had run the offense we’re running now with Vick at the helm, I completely agree he’d have done better than he did. But that wouldn’t have stopped him from turning the ball over all the time. Or cause him to make better audibles. I keep reading about how Foles locks onto his first read…that was Vick’s exact problem. He did it constantly and that’s why he threw so many picks.
Don’t blind yourself to the facts because of your affinity for a certain player. The o-line was bad all year, and is still bad. The play calling was bad, and while better, is still questionable. But Vick was also playing bad…really bad. So much so that it exacerbated the existing issues with the offensive line and play calling, leading to an offense that couldn’t score and couldn’t stop turning the ball over. The Eagles scored more points as an offense on Sunday night with a rookie QB, than they did in any game this year with Vick. That should tell you all you need to know.
I do like Vick, but I would have no problem supporting Foles over Vick if I thought he gave the Eagles the best chance to win. Foles does have potential, but this offense has the talent to win now with the right QB. With Foles I see a Christian Ponder scenario. Like Ponder, Foles has shown flashes, but even with AP and a decent defense the Vikings still aren’t scaring anyone. Lastly, I have to disagree with you on how the playing calling would not have prevented some of the turnovers. If we had run the ball, Vick would not have the opportunity to throw as many picks. Also, the receivers would have an easier time getting open if opponents fear the play action. This team needs the best QB right now, not the one with the most potential (which may or may not be realized). I agree with Foles starting the remainder of the season, but going into next year I would hope they will keep Vick or bring in a comparable vet, and let the best man start.
I don’t disagree with you that Foles has been given an easier offense to execute. And I’m far from sold on him as the answer. I’m not even arguing that Foles is as good as Vick is right now, much less better. I think Vick is a better player at this point.
What I’m saying is that even with the benefit of more balanced playcalling, I think Vick has proven he’s not good enough to be a championship caliber QB. He holds the ball too long, he makes too many bad decisions, and he takes too many hits, which for a guy with a slight frame and a history of durability issues is a major problem. And at the age of 32, after 10 seasons as a pro, it’s very unlikely he’s going to improve. The flaws in Foles’ game right now are significant, but they may be fixable. I doubt that is the case with Vick.
I will be rooting for a 24-24 tie caused exclusively by unforced fumbles in the end zone after each offense repeatedly moves backwards on bad snaps, failed cutback runs and poorly timed end-arounds. Of course, both kickers fail to make any of the extra points.
Short of that, I would rather see the Giants lose, I think. But just barely.
I love the tie idea. Kudos, great sir.
Actually, on second thought, I don’t want them recovering all those fumbles in the end zone, that would feel good. Let’s have the QB try to recover, trip, bobble, stumble, and comically kick the ball out of the back of the endzone, while the defense trips over each other in a futile attempt to get the ball: 8-8 tie.
Now that’s fantasy football.
I need less then 5 points for Tynes to win my fantasy game. So i’m on board
Ha. I need Morris to outscore Garcon by 6 AND Wilson to outscore RGIII by 8 or I don’t make the playoffs for the first time in our 4-year history. I’m pretty doubtful.
Go Redskins.
Hopefully the Giants need to win the season finale to win the division and make the playoffs.
London Fletcher is hobbling out there, but if he gets to you, he will lay the wood. Love that guy. So tough.
Fletcher is the one thing they have you have to respect. Shannanigans and Sons are comedians disguised as coaches. But Haslett and Fletcher are serious.
#d3fb
Also Pierre (who just scored a TD)
I root for the Skins. After watching Tony Romo and Jerry Jones sad, its Coughlin and that sad face of Eli Manning is the next best thing
This is crazy stuff coming out about Washburn. Clearly Reid fucked up by firing Castillo instead of Washburn. I can’t believe Reid would even let all of that go on, how can you have a DL coach running amok like that? I wonder how this all ties in to that preseason sideline spat between Jenkins and Reid, at the time it made absolutely no sense whatsoever but now… if Reid felt like the DL was basically holding itself aloof from the rest of the team, maybe he was trying to knock some sense into them.
I’m rooting for the Giants, because the RGIII hyping just kills me. I had to turn off the sound a bit ago after Gruden said that RG3 made a great play on the fumble. Seriously Gruden? Fucking really? RG3’s fumble was a great play? If he had fumbled right into the arms of a Giants defender instead of a Redskins reciever would it still be a great play? If Gruden was struck mute at half time it would be a win for the sports viewing world.
+1 Everything you said…
This is the line that sold it for me. I dream this happens one day…
” If Gruden was struck mute at half time it would be a win for the sports viewing world.”
I’m rooting for Gruden to say so many stupid things that Jeff Lurie will say to himself what I’ve been saying to myself, “There’s no way I want this man as hc for the Eagles.”
Finally, something to root for.
“The guys in charge are bumbling around”.
So true and so painful. Who would have ever thought “bumbling” would be a term you could apply to an Andy Reid led team.
Looking at Alfred Morris…I’m appreciating BB’s ability to take it to the house even more. Definitely similar to how Chris Johnson protected Vince Young’s rudimentary utility for deep passes.
The NFL is about threat. People took the threat of the Philly DL seriously in the beginning of the year, but as OCs after OCs have noticed the lack of closing ability, QBs after QBs are hanging onto the ball and throwing when they want to, and setting properly before they do so. Thus making the secondary look horrid. Even when the DL got to Romo, he just dismissed it as an occasional thing and went on to complete 10 in a row…
Yeah it was pretty infuriating last night watching the Cowboys convert 3rd down after 3rd down in the second half because the d-line wasn’t quite able to get home. Romo would just dance away from pressure after a few seconds and end up hitting a guy who was by then, wide open downfield.
And the sad truth is, the secondary on this team doesn’t really need any help looking horrid. They’re pretty good at busting coverages on their own.
Hopefully with Wash gone there’ll be a little more cohesion in terms of called coverages and d-line pressure.
Watching Eli, doesn’t he remiind you of Foles? Tall, can make some really nice passes but is erratic and inconsistent.
I’ve made the comparison before. Big, goofy looking, inexplicably lucky, and chucks it up for grabs with surprising success.
So Foles is going to be our lucky charm?
Sorry to say but right now Foles is more Hoying than Eli.
Not sure i survive the stupid scary rollercoaster ride Gints fans suffer every year….but if it gets us a championship sign me up.
I’m not saying root for the Giants, but let’s not forget that the Skins don’t own their #1 pick so their losses do nothing but invoke a sour mood.
Speaking of which, not only do the Eagles have the 4th pick if the season ended today, they’re only one game out of the hunt for the top pick.
I’m rooting for the Skins. I’d love for this game to start a Giants slide in which they need the game against us to make the playoffs, and in a miracle that can only happen in the Meadowlands, we win and keep them on the couch right alongside of us. If nothing else it gives us true meaning to the last game of the season.
soooo, RG3inaRow???
I just hate being clearly the worst team in the division. I’d rather have the Giants run away with it and the Skins sulking the cellar with us than watching the Skins surge the way they are.
I think it’s best to separate ourselves from any feelings about this season. It’s not us, so it doesn’t much matter who it is. Somebody’s got to win the division, let’s just not have any more NFC East Super Bowls please thanks.
Otherwise, everything from here has to be focused on what makes the Eagles best going forward. Maybe with a new attitude wrangling all the individual talent and two draft picks in the top 35, the Eagles can get good quickly.
As far as this year, the Eagles are last place and since they can’t even handle their own business against the Cowboys and Redskins, there’s no point in trying to drag one of them down with us. We can’t pull them that far.
I was pulling for the Skins tonite. They were so bad for so long, I can’t generate the hatred for them. RG3 is completely likable at this point, so is most of their team aside from their coaches. I can generate much more bile for Eli and the rest of the Giants.
The worst part is knowing that RG3 will is going to be their McNabb, and we just might spend ten years looking up at them from the bottom of the division.
Gotta have faith that Shanny will find a way to screw it up!
thats not fair. I am confident that RG3 has at least one SB win in him.
Nice win by the Skins last night. RG3 is special. The Skins are bad, RG3 has given them 3-4 additional wins they wouldnt have had without him. Also kudos to the Shannahans for designing an offense (Pistol, read option) that is perfectly suited for RG3 instead of the other way around. It made me think about Reid, should he have done the same with Vick instead of having him run WCO?
Are the Eagles the new Redskins? As in they are the joke of the division?
These things are cyclic…
So what type of defense do you prefer to see the Eagles use next year based on the current players that will stick around and the draft prospects for next year?
IMO, the future of of the front 7 for this defense is Curry, Cox, Graham, Kendricks, and Thornton. I’m not sure if some of these guys like Cox and Graham will be effective in the 3-4.
Is there a 3-4 DE, NT, OLB prospect in next year’s draft that can be the cornerstone of a defense like JJ Watt, Patrick Willis, H. Ngata?
I’m puzzled why a lot of folks are speculating about a switch to a 3-4 defense, like it would be a magical elixir to fix the defense. The Eagles really don’t have the personnel. A 3-4 switch would entail bringing in some more LBs besides new DLinemen. I don’t see Graham as a 3-4 OLB, he wouldn’t rush the passer exclusively and I don’t think I would want him dropping into coverage.
The Eagles are already looking at significant turnover on defense (at least 2 new starters in the 2dary and another starter at LB, Jordan should be a backup).
Re: getting Vick healthy
T-Law:
Seems to me that — even accounting for the increased use of the running game — Nick Foles is not taking nearly the number of hits that Vick was taking in the pocket.
If my off-the-cuff observation is right, that says a lot about MV — and the issues of pocket awareness and reading the defense that we’ve been discussing literally since the 1st preseason game.
?
That conclusion is really far from the premises. Isn’t the fact that the OL is doing a better job a more parsimonious explanation? I mean, we’re seeing big runs when we didn’t use to have them, and the more standard run plays are succeeding quite a bit.
Moreover, Foles had something like 10 attempts at a long pass play out of about 30. He just wasn’t asked to let plays develop, and when he was, most of those tries began with a correct rollout, after a PA.
I hesitate to even say anything, so I’ll keep it short. This is a chicken and egg disagreement. Either you think Vick’s poor play caused the o-line to look even worse than it already was, and that Foles using better audibles and getting rid of the ball quicker has made them look better than awful. Or you think the play calling and o-line doomed Vick and they’re both suddenly better now that Foles is behind center.
I think the play calling has evened out some, aided by the Bryce Brown show. But it’s a stretch to think that the o-line has just magically improved it’s play because Foles came in. Granted, Jake Scott is clearly better than Danny Watkins. The common denominator is that the o-line looks better. Simplest explanation? Foles and Brown are taking pressure off them.
Vick was holding the ball much longer. If the line was blocked better, he would hold on longer, and would try to run around. Maybe Vick was trying for more ‘Home Runs’ instead of screens (where has the screen game gone?) and outlet passes. But he was getting crushed on the corner and safety blitz, which NYGMinny made the blue print for, and everyone copied.
Foles seems to have problems with the deep ball. That may be an issue with adjusting to the speed of the game, or his eventual Achilles heel. It seems like rookie QBs progress in waves.
I have watched a lot of Ponder this year, and at the beginning of the season he was leading the league in completion %, now teams defend the short stuff and he has really lost confidence. Right now RG3 is making some noise, but defenses will find something to make him look like crap. He will have to adapt. Happened to Cam last year.
Given the chance, Foles will go through a non-linear progression like that. He will get comfortable in some throws, then teams will take them away and he will have to adjust. It is in that ability to adjust which will determine his success.
Ponder never had the talent to have any business being an NFL starter. Foles doesn’t really have the talent either, but he is markedly better at doing routine things like throw an out.
The idea that you have to put up with a rookie’s ups and downs is bull. People who deserve to play will show you that they deserve to play, and that means displacing the veteran on a what-they-bring-to-the-table basis, not a he’s-younger-and-cheaper-and-hey-he-might-have-upside basis. Bryce Brown is going to get plenty of carries going forward because he has repeatedly shown in the three out of the four games he had lots of carries that he is a home run threat, showing off vision, balance, speed, and power. Foles has never had any plays like BB’s. He has had no plays that are truly comparable to Kolb, especially in ’10. He plainly does not have the arm, and will be a liability in a bad pocket (no, he does NOT have Big Ben’s mobility and he does NOT move well in the pocket). As far as the rest of *this* season is about, it’s about whether Foles can be a good backup, pretty much what he was always going to be drafted as.
As for fewer sacks? King Dunlap had a good game, for King Dunlap–he only blew one block badly. I trust you saw how much in pain Foles was as he picked himself up off the turf. The OL problems never had much to do with Vick holding onto the ball. The OL problems never had to do with weak linemen or people playing with poor technique (tho’ that was a problem, too). The OL had problems actually picking up DL on stunts and twists in the interior gaps, and missing blitz pickups. No QB in the NFL will survive that. None. No consistent pocket == no consistent productivity. That OL was not good Sunday night–BB did much of the work, and he had very few blocks by linemen on the LBs and Ss. There was not ever any real time for passing, and what there was, was due to DL paying careful attention to their run assignments. However, they were not as terrible as they once were.
No future credible coach with options will roll with Foles as a starting QB, broadly speaking. If they have to, they’ll do it with the same pursed lips Jim Harbaugh wrt Alex Smith. Or the dignified, pleasant, blandness of Frazier wrt Ponder. Pretending that he’s an option is only a route to disappointment, one way or another. Talent is talent is talent, no way around it, and only orgs with a losing tradition will ignore that, like Woody and his bring-in of Tebow, when they needed Drew Stanton like nobody’s business. I do not think Lurie is disinterested enough with winning that he will ignore that gaping void of talented options in FA and the draft and dismiss Vick.
Your first post: “Isn’t the fact that the OL is doing a better job a more parsimonious explanation? I mean, we’re seeing big runs when we didn’t use to have them, and the more standard run plays are succeeding quite a bit.”
Your second post: “That OL was not good Sunday night–BB did much of the work, and he had very few blocks by linemen on the LBs and Ss. ”
Do you REALLY not see that? You contradict yourself constantly.
A better job /= good.
That’s obvious.
Ok, so the o line is doing well enough for you to refer to them as “big runs” and that “standard runs are succeeding quite a bit”. But that’s not your way of saying they’re doing a good job?
How could I possibly misconstrue that?
Earlier, Demetrius Bell and King Dunlap were unable to seal the edge for the stretch runs. So not only did Shady have to dodge the people on the back end, but he had to outrace the DE *and* the CBs/S to the edge, and closer to the sidelines. Needless to say, not too many yards. Shady was sporting some pretty weak running totals game in and out, as a result.
Now, Kelly manages to seal the edge for BB and does it nicely on the right side. However, we consistently see complete and shameful failures of the OL to reach the second level. Most notably Reynolds in the first Dallas game in a red zone drive. I’m not seeing either Reynolds or Scott in the second level, but Kelly (and Dunlap doing a terrible job) on occasion. I’m not seeing too many great interior holes, and I *am* seeing BB doing a good job running around backfield defenders, staying on his feet after first contact and hitting any holes really fast. The runblocking is only improved from horrible to bad/indifferent.
Nothing to misconstrue.
That’s all well and good. I don’t know how that has anything to do with you contradicting yourself. But, great.
I would definitely be interested about reading how the oline is improving. Seems to me there have been a ton of moving parts to that equation, so saying it is any one particular thing that has helped it improve seems unlikely to me, but I imagine it is a mixture of multiple factors. Some of the areas that I think would be worth mentioning include, personnel themselves (Heremans to Bell to Kelly/Watkins to Scott/Reynolds gaining experience/maybe even a small amount of the oline playing together for a bit now), play calling changes, Vick vs. Foles at QB, and maybe it is a simple thing of matchups. Either way, it would be interesting to see what is going on with our oline.
After reading this story: http://www.csnphilly.com/football-philadelphia-eagles/eagles-talk/Sources-Reid-admits-to-botching-Castillo?blockID=809405&feedID=704
I really think Reid will bring Castillo with him to his next stop.
What if the next “stop” is Philadelphia?
Castillo was a good OL coach so I hope he lands back on his feet somewhere, whether with Reid or elsewhere.
I was really bothered after reading this article this morning: http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles/20121203_Roseman_played_a_role_in_hiring_Washburn__sources_say.html
One of the admirable qualities of Reid is his “buck-stops-with-me” approach of publicly taking the responsibility of mistakes by his subordinates (players and coaches). I don’t expect the full story of the 2012 Eagles meltdown to come to the light of day, but I really want to know how much is attributable to the GM. I think Reid has accepted some errors by Roseman, whether getting bad counsel on hiring Washburn, or mistakes on player evaluations such as stocking the defensive backfield with 2 starting CBs that are as averse to tackling as Republicans are to tax increases (a widely reported issue with DRC during his time in AZ was his lacking tackling effort/ability, and I’m getting a gut feeling now that maybe Roseman was the instigation for the JaiJar pick).
Reid is likely going down as Eagles HC, but should Roseman remain to help find the next HC (when he can be influenced by an agent) and help with drafting (as of now) a top 4 pick?
Remember that Reid has final say on EVERYTHING. So in the end, yes Roseman might have lobbied for Washburn, but if he didnt like it, he wouldnt have hired him. Also remember Washburn’s resume is very good. so its not like we took a chance on a no name coach.
What are the odds that “the gang” gets back together up in Cleveland?
Banner, Reid, Castillo…
It seems so unlikely, but it would be pretty funny.
It’d be even funnier if they had to take a Blues Brothers style road trip to get there.
edit: It’s 431 miles to Cleveland…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHa_jqxnn4o