Barkevious Mingo

Posted: April 20th, 2013 | Author: | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 85 Comments »

Howie Roseman had his pre-draft talk with the media not long ago. He made an interesting comment:

Roseman also said that the pass-rushing talent in this draft is at the very top, that “pass-rushers are going to go quickly.”

This logic hasn’t been lost on me as I’ve thought over and over about what to do at #4.  There is depth in a lot of areas.  That’s not true with pass rushers.  It is one of the reasons that LB Dion Jordan is my top target for the Eagles.  That’s also tied to the fact that the Eagles have so much uncertainty at OLB. The top 3 guys right now are Connor Barwin, Brandon Graham, and Trent Cole. The trio combined for just 11 sacks last year.  And only Barwin has 3-4 experience. These guys have to learn, adjust, and improve.

I think the Eagles should focus on getting Dion Jordan.  But what happens if the Jaguars take him at #2?  What then?

I go over this scenario over and over. Who do you take?  Clearly you want to take the player with the highest grade. But what if several players have the same grade or they are so close that you have your choice of positions. What do you do then?

Since we don’t know the Eagles draft grades it is okay for us to focus our discussion on positions.  When you have limited info, you do what you can.  So setting grades aside for a minute…what position would be best to get at #4?  Go back to Howie’s comments.  Go get the pass rusher.

The discussion I’ve been having with myself is whether getting a pass rusher means strictly an OLB or if that could also be a 5-tech DE.  Since this draft looks to be deep with the DEs, I’m focusing on OLBs. After Jordan, Barkevious Mingo is the next guy.  Is he worth pick #4?  That would all depend on the grade the Eagles have on him.  I expect him to be a Top 10 or so pick. He won’t last long.  I think the Jags could grab him at #2. The Browns have expressed some interest. The Jets are said to covet him. I’m sure the Saints at #15 would love to move up and get him if they had the ammo.

Let’s talk about Mingo.

6-4, 241
33 3/4 arms
9 5/8 hands
4.58
37 – VJ
10’8 – BJ
6.84 – 3-cone
4.39 – SS
no bench – choice

The argument against Mingo is that he only had 4.5 sacks last year. How can such a dynamic athlete have so little production?  There are a couple of reasons. First, LSU did a lot of mush-rushing last year. That is when DEs don’t fly upfield. They rush under control, with the goal of boxing the QB in the pocket. The reason you do that is to make mobile guys become pocket passers.  That strategy worked great vs Texas A&M and Johnny Football had his worst game of the year.

The other reason for a lack of production is that Mingo wasn’t a great finisher in 2012. He did have a chance to make more plays and just didn’t get the job done. That is a legitimate concern. Was that a fluke?  Can that be fixed?  Mingo had 15 TFLs (including 8 sacks) back in 2011 so those were good numbers. He was only credited as starting 3 games, but clearly played a lot of snaps.

I am really torn as to what to think of Mingo.  One big selling point for me is that LSU mis-used him. Mingo isn’t meant to be just a 4-3 DE. He is a dynamic player. He can be a weapon.  Watch the bowl game vs Clemson.

Mingo got to shoot inside gaps and was very disruptive. They used 3-man lines a few times and gave Mingo more room to work with. That was effective. They stood him up a time or two and Mingo is at his best when upright. He has the best spin move of anyone in the draft. He can go cover the RB in the flat and take that option away. He can mirror the QB and try to bat down the pass. I would love to have seen him play in a 3-4 scheme in college.  He might have played his best game of 2012 vs Clemson. Mingo had 4 TFLs, a FF, and was disruptive.

I think Mingo can be a very good OLB in the NFL. He is explosive. His VJ and BJ numbers show you that. Then re-watch the game. You see him explode up the field. Look at his 3-cone time. 6.84 for a guy that is 6-4, 241 is incredible. That shows great quickness and agility. Watch his spin moves. Watch his lateral agility in games. Mingo can fly upfield or sideways. He had good long speed, but not great. He’s special in his ability to explode from Point A to Point B in an instant.

Mingo can cover. He can rush the passer. I think he’s underrated as a run defender. Mingo needs to add some bulk and he must get stronger, but he’s not a finesse player. He will fire into blockers and fight to  hold his ground or to push them backward. He uses his hands well and isn’t strictly a “run-around” guy. Some speed rushers are allergic to contact. Not Mingo.

Size-wise, he’s fine. Chip Kelly would prefer 6-6, but 6-4 with solid arm length is good enough. Mingo can bulk up to 250 pretty naturally and should carry that well. I don’t think you want him getting up to 260, but the sports science guy can figure out if Mingo should weigh 257.4 pounds or 249.3 and they could adjust his smoothie intake accordingly.

We do know that Howie Roseman and Chip Kelly both were at LSU’s Pro Day. There were a lot of prospects to look at  that the Eagles could like:

DE Lavar Edwards

S Eric Reid

RB Spencer Ware

RB Michael Ford

Mingo

CB Tharold Simon

OL P.J. Lonergan

WR Russell Sheppard

LB Sam Montgomery

DL Bennie Logan

That is a lot of talent. But Mingo will be the highest pick and you have to think that Roseman and Kelly have some interest. I don’t know if they’ll love him, like him, or just be curious. Mingo is an odd player.

Remember that Howie talked about what a player can become. If you develop Mingo’s body and coach him up, he could develop into a very good NFL player. Could be be a defensive cornerstone? I do think it is possible. He has the potential to become a dynamic pass rusher because of his explosion and agility. You can work on strength. Explosion and agility are rare traits.  Anyone can lift weights.

If the Eagles miss on Jordan and pass on Mingo, the LBs to target are not a compelling bunch. I’ll put up a separate post on them over the weekend. The drop-off is very real.

By comparison, pass on Ansah and you could go get a DE in every round. Magus Hunt 2nd. William Gholston 3rd/4th. Joe Kruger 4th/5th. And so on. There are a bunch of interesting guys even beyond them. This is focusing on true DEs. If you mix in the Jonathan Hankins, John Jenkins, and Quinton Dials of the world, the number goes up even more.

There are a slew of good OTs. You can find one in the 2nd, 3rd, and possibly even 4th round.

Lots of Safeties and CBs.

Pass rushing LBs are the thin group. If that is a priority position, go for it early.

One other key thing to keep in mind is that if the Eagles do like Mingo, they should have a feel for his value. They might know that they could slide back to pick 6, 7, or 8 and still get him. Or they might know that Mingo is a player teams quietly do want and they need to take him at #4.

Who knows. Maybe the Jags will snatch him up at #2 and Jordan will be there for the Eagles.  This is going to be an interesting draft.

Please remember what I wrote earlier…this is all predicated on the Eagles having a high grade on him. If they have Mingo with a mid-1st grade, then I’ve just wasted 1300 words speculating on something that won’t happen. The Eagles aren’t going to reach. They will have talented players to pick from and will find one that can really help the team.

* * * * *

Compare Mingo’s info to Ansah and Jordan

Jordan
6-6, 248
33 7/8 arms
10″ hands
4.60
32 1/2 – VJ
10’2 – BJ
7.02 – 3-cone
4.35 – SS
no bench (shoulder surgery)

Ansah
6-5, 271
35 1/8 arms
10 1/4 hands
4.63
34.5 – VJ
9’10 – BJ
7.11 – 3-cone
4.26 – SS
21 reps

_


  • austinfan

    Jordan and Mingo really aren’t pass rushers, they’re LBs who can rush the passer, but put them on the LOS and their lack of bulk and upper body strength will be exposed. Question is whether an all around LB who isn’t a great pass rusher is worthy of a top ten pick. I say no. DeMarcus Ware was a great athlete who could have learned to cover, but why waste his talents in space? If a guy is a great pass rusher, you don’t drop him into coverage, Kearse being a good example.

    The two best pass rushers for the Eagles (Werner and Okeafor are strictly 4-3 guys, Moore and Jones just aren’t top athletes) are Ansah and Carradine. That is, if a pass rusher is your priority. They are both very athletic, but also have the size to line up on an OT’s shoulder and be able to do it all, beat them to the outside, counter to the inside and have the power to bull rush them into a QB. And they’re both capable of dropping into zone coverage without looking foolish.

    • Baloophi

      I agree with your size concerns with Jordan and Mingo – Mingo, in particular, looked like he had issues when engaging blockers despite his arm length.

      That said, I disagree that Ansah is the Ansah. He’s a major project (looks lost on most plays) and would definitely look more foolish than either Jordan or Mingo when dropping back.

      • TommyLawlor

        The question with Ansah is whether the Eagles would see him at DE or OLB. They had the DL coach work him out so that makes me think they see him there, but I don’t know that for a fact. I think Ansah could play either spot and succeed.

        • ICDogg

          I like Ansah a lot but I don’t see him ever becoming a 2-gap DE.

          • Geagle

            Yeah 2Gaping would be a waste of his ability. Like Tom, when they sent Azz to look at Ziggy, I kind of crossed him off our list. If they can see Curry as a 5tec, then Im sure they think Ziggy could do it, but I think its a waste of his ability. If we drafted Ziggy, I would want to see him as our Predator, problem with that is, Not sure if we will even use a predator(this year), and if we do, there is only 1 predator and we have guys like Cole,Graham who need to play it…and If we are being honest, an argument could be made that Barwin should also play predator for us…So in my mind, thier are 3 players on this roster who should be our predator, so as much as I like him, its tough to pound the table for Ziggy….
            If Ziggy ends up as Gus Bradley’s Leo, or If Ziggy ends up playing DE on a line with Ndomunkong Su and Fairley….WATCH OUT, the kid can become a HORSE!

      • austinfan

        With Ansah and Carradine, you’d see them as pass rushers first, and just want them to be able to drop into underneath zone coverage and do a respectable job. They could bulk up and play the “5” or stay their current size and line up as the predator or even the SAM if you don’t ask them to cover man to man in that role. They bring power and quickness to their role as pass rushers.

        With Jordan and Mingo, they’re really more 4-3 LBs who can blitz, and they’re almost wasted in a 3-4 scheme where they line up on the LOS and have to wrestle with an OT or big TE and negate their athleticism. If you put them at SAM in a 3-4, you want them off the LOS where they can employ their athleticism in both coverage and to run to plays.

        • TommyLawlor

          We’ll just have to disagree. Both Jordan and Mingo could be 4-3 or 3-4 LBs.

          I do agree that using them as standard 4-3 DEs would be wasteful.

          • http://twitter.com/PhiIs_Goodman Phils Goodman

            With you on this one Tommy. I see Mingo as a DE/OLB in the true sense, not as just a catch-all Madden designation.

          • GvilleEagleFan

            I know this is a Mingo post, but do you think Jordan could realistically replace Ryans in our sub packages? I know the reason the Texans didn’t use him was their 4-1-6 front didn’t need two LBs and even DeMeco would tell you Cushing is an amazing athlete, but I have to think that even in a 4-2-5 he’d be single covering TEs. Is that something we should be comfortable with?

            If you do think Jordan would be an upgrade on DeMeco’s cover skills, does that make him important enough to be this year’s Browns and trade up to #2 to get him? Would a 4 this year and a 4 or 5 next year be enough to make that deal? What about cashing in our slew of 7s?

          • Geagle

            Im probably one of Demeco’s biggest fans…and I would ABSOLUTELY replace him on Nickle with Jordan. Not that I think Demeco NEEDS to be replaced. I dont think he got the credit he deserved in coverage last year. I mean, its never going to be Demeco’s strength, but thier were about a handful of times that a reciever would catch the ball on 3rd down, and Demeco would stop him just short of a 1st down, getting the defense off the field…But Jordan is a different Animal.
            You could probably create subpackages, where you throw a different look at the offense, and line Dion up at as a Deathbacker(safety/hybrid) about 5 times a game(I also think Kendricks could possibly also be used sporadically as a hybrid safety)…Thats insane Athleticism for a guy with that Height and wingspan…We could never even think about lining up Demeco as a safety(just tryig to point out the difference in coverage ability)..So as much as I love Demeco, I would certainly replace him on 3rd down if we get a weapon like like Jordan..
            .With Jordan and Kendricks as the two backers in a 4-2-5 (what other team will have more Nickle LB speed than that?)..Either can spy the QB, Either can cover the flat, run with a TE, or Blitz the QB. They would give us a ton of Flexability in our Nickle packages(you can do so many creative things with two guys with that type of speed).
            I really do think that Kendricks and Dion can grow into a FORCE on 3rd down

          • holeplug

            No. You draft Jordan at #4 b/c you think he can get to the QB. Using him as a coverage linebacker on passing downs would be a waste.

          • Geagle

            BLITZ! when your not sure someone is rushing or not, thats when they are most dangerous.

            and Mr. Billy Davis is a big believer in Blitzing, something that passed away with Jim Johnson. Bye Bye Vanilla defense. Hello, disguising, blitzing defense!

        • GvilleEagleFan

          I know I’ve been somewhat repetitive about this point, but the unique match between Jordan and the Eagles is that we would never really need him to play 4-3 DE. We have Cole and Graham who have that spot covered in our sub packages, and Barwin has had success rushing the passer from that stance (see Jimmy’s breakdown of all his 2011 sacks). In the sub package he would potentially be an upgrade over Ryans in coverage and would be a better blitz option. That’s more than enough immediate contribution for #4 in THIS draft class in my opinion. He could grow into a third down pass rusher as his body changes in an NFL weight room and is coached on technique

          • http://twitter.com/PhiIs_Goodman Phils Goodman

            I feel like those expectations are too modest and protracted for a #4 pick. I like the prospects better for Mingo to step in and quickly make his mark as an edge rusher on passing downs.

          • GvilleEagleFan

            How many edge rushers on passing downs do we need? And to be clear, I think the scenario I described above is the bare minimum Jordan can contribute. If Mingo turns out to be too raw to cover well in his first year, doesn’t that limit his snaps to a situation where one of Cole, Graham, or Barwin isn’t on the field?

          • http://twitter.com/PhiIs_Goodman Phils Goodman

            You hope to have two great ones for a long time.

        • ICDogg

          Yeah, I feel similarly. I think it depends a lot on what exactly they want the defense to be. If they’re going to use 2 or 3 guys playing 2 gaps more often than not, I’d rather go with Ansah as an OLB. If they’re going to play mostly all one-gap stuff, then they need to consider who is a better SAM in coverage.

    • TommyLawlor

      DeMarcus Ware:

      6-4, 251
      4.56
      38 1/2 – VJ
      10’2 – BJ

      6.85 – 3-cone
      4.07 – SS

      Those numbers are similar to Mingo. The difference is that Ware was 10 pounds heavier and definitely stronger (27 reps).

      Both guys fast, explosive, and agile.

      • austinfan

        That was coming out of college, Ware came out of Troy, Mingo out of LSU. If Mingo hasn’t bulked up by now, can he bulk up? I’d be concerned. You knew Ware was going to get even stronger once he got into a pro training program.

        It comes down to roles, if MIngo can’t build up his upper body, he’s a LB who maybe moves up to a wide 9 type spot on obvious passing downs (the Clemons role in Seattle), whereas Ware proved to be a true 3-4 WOLB. That made Ware the better prospect.

        • http://twitter.com/PhiIs_Goodman Phils Goodman

          I think Mingo actually SLIMMED DOWN heading into this season. Think I heard that on one of the telecasts at least. So if that’s true it could have been a conscious (if baffling) decision to play at that light weight.

          • TommyLawlor

            He was only about 235 during the season.

          • http://twitter.com/PhiIs_Goodman Phils Goodman

            I should have been clearer. I was referring to the beginning of the 2012 season.

        • GvilleEagleFan

          I’m in my last semester at UF, so maybe I can offer a little first hand reporting on SEC weight rooms. Here the students have access to the same weight lifting room the players use (obviously they block it off during team workouts). They are NOTHING like the pictures I’ve seen of Novacare. The players have great support staff and trainers, but a great deal of the “bulking up” in the NFL must come from a combination of better facilities and the removal of NCAA rules that limit player and coach contact.

          TL;DR: Even big schools can’t compare to NFL quality training facilities, staff and time

      • Geagle

        I seriously dont understand how “needing to add Bulk” is a reason to stop us from drafting someone…NEEDING to gain weight when making the transition from playing with boys, to grown men is not uncommon…These kids look like men, but most of thier bodies wont mature til they turn 24, 25 years old

        I always was led to believe that you draft a kid for what he can become. Thier are things you can fix and “coach up”, and then thier are Limitations that you cant do much about
        I am not opposed to Mingo at all if Dion is off the board.. If Dion werent in this draft, I would probably be much more excited about Mingo. But If Dion gets drafted by Jags, then I guess its like Dion was never in this draft..
        The problems of the end of the Reid Regime, were that we were dumb. Too often we outsmarted ourselves and ignored common sense. Instead of attacking weaknesses, we would unexplicably make life harder and go at a teams strength. The lack of common sense didnt just manifest itself during games, but it also reared its grotesque face during decision making process, coach hirings, the draft…..Everything has a strength and a weakness.
        The strength of this draft is its depth at certain positions: Oline, NT, DT, Safety, CB, and TE
        Weakness: Cant miss superstar potential at the top, QBs, Pass rushers, skill positions..
        So the strengths vs. Weakness equation of this draft, says that if we pass on a pass rusher at 4, It wont be as easy finding one later on, as some of the other positions we could pass on at #4…Pass rushing is something that is always valued, and even times when we thought we were set at DE’s, we still invested in more pass rushers(Think Vinny Curry) Its on of the 3 most valued positions, and you really cant ever have enough. I think if you have a shot at a Elite pass rusher that you really believe in at #4, then you take him….If not, trade back and grab an extra pick or two

  • Wilbert M.

    Tommy – I know you have a man crush on Jordan but there are too many question marks to take him at #4. I agree with austinfan that he doesn’t exhibit blow away strength in a pass rush. I’ve seen Jordan get absolutely stonewalled by OT’s. You have to go with as sure a thing as possible at #4 – you just can’t afford to miss. That’s why we need to go OT or Star. If the OT’s are gone, take Star. Star may be a little high at #4 but he fills a HUGE need.

    • TommyLawlor

      I hear you in regard to strength…but you must realize that can be fixed. You put that guy in an NFL weight room and tell him what you want his body to be. He can add bulk and strength or stay light if that’s what Kelly prefers.

      Focus on things you have or don’t: speed, agility, explosion.

      • Wilbert M.

        That may have been the Lions thought process with Ernie Sims…..

        • TommyLawlor

          Huh? Ernie failed because apparently he’s not very bright and has no instincts. Ernie was plenty strong. Hell, that was one of his best traits. Best memory is when he floored Leonard Davis (360 lbs).

          • Wilbert M.

            My memory of Ernie was watching him get pushed around like a rag doll on running plays coming at him. He couldn’t get off a block if his life depended on it.

          • Geagle

            Needing some more experience on the defensive side of the ball, and adding a little weight is not the same thing as a project. It takes a darn good understanding of the game to have been able to move around like a chess piece and line up all over the defense(for him to have done that with so little time on the defensive side of the ball is nothing to sneeze at)..What is the project part? adding a few moves and counter moves? Gaining 10lbs? Half the prospects ever to come out of college needed to add strength and add moves…We sit here fortunate that our coach knows this kid has a great charecter, and all the tools in the world(azzinaro already knows him also)…so Im not exactly seeing where the project is? Being a project and making the transition to the NFL from College, are two different things. Luke Marquardt is a PROJECT…Dion just needs to make the transition
            If Dion wasnt in this draft, I would probably be much more excited about Barkevious. I think the Jags are trying to bluff us, and get us to bite…”Jordonians” drool over him(Dion) as our SAM…The Jags are Talking Predator, and for that role I think Mingo and Ziggy are more suited. Forever I have switched back n fourth between mocking Mingo or Ziggy at number two…not going to change now

            LIke, the kid(dion) already added 10lbs of muscle(he has no body fat) since college, and did it with a shoulder that required surgery…How is that even possible? If he was managed to do that in the few months between the season, and the combine, then how could we possibly be worried about adding weight when he hits an NFL strength program, and his body naturally matures(He is almost at that age, and grown man strength is very real)

          • Geagle

            my memory of Dion was watching teams refuse to run his direction…that usually doesnt happen if he is able to be pushed around..It got to a point, that I couldnt even watch Dion play anymore because it pissed me off how little offenses were testing him during certain periods…I dont know what opposing coaches feared more, running towards Dion, or throwing his way.
            People want to crucify him for his lack of production…If anyone’s lack of production is an issue, its mingo, not Dions…Mingo’s stats should be more like Jarvis, than Dion. If you look at Jarvis’s 14 sacks, a good portion were coverage sacks(from his NFL secondary), and some were just his NFL front 7 teamates chasing QB’s into his lap. Mingo had the NFL supporting cast around him, that Dion didnt have. So its not as simple as we wont run, or throw at Mingo when thier are other NFL players on the other side of the defense. When you allocate resources into scheming Jordan out of the game, you have much less talent to deal with, than when you scheme Mingo out of a game

          • Wilbert M.

            This is my point about Jordan – no doubt he’s strong, fast and an incredible athletic specimen, but he is a project. I am very uncomfortable with any type of project at #4.

          • xeynon

            Don’t you go bashing Ernie Sims now. The man was a shark in the water.

        • Geagle

          Never thought I would be comparing a brain dead ILB with Dion Jordan..
          I ask this to all the anti Jordan fans all the time, and no one has yet to offer me an explanation, so Im going to try again…
          If adding weight is such a concern, can someone offer up an explanation on how Dion was basically able to add 10lbs of Muscle, in the few moths from the end of the season to the combine, with a shoulder that required surgery? If he was able to do that, how can adding bulk be a concern, when he turns 24-25, gets his man strength and his metabolism slows down? The kid is clearly still growing into his body and I dont think anyone can even question whether his frame is suitable to add on the weight. I like Mingo, but his frame is significantly more of a concern than Dions. if needing to add size and strength is an issue for you, than you will probably have to cross off about 1/3 of the front 7 prospects from your draft board. You do realize that THOUSANDS of NFL prospects have needed to add size and strength to play against grown men, and plenty of been successful?
          There are 2 types of NFL OLB prospects:
          1)Players that were 4-3DE’s in College. These are the players that dont need to add much bulk to make the transition. For example, Ziggy. To play OLB he wont have to add much strength, but this type of prospect will usually give up a decent amount of speed,agility, coverage skill to the prospect that was an OLB in college. Seems easier to me to make a kid stronger, than it is to make him faster, more agile. and better in coverage.
          2)Players that were OLB’s in college. It is not uncommon for these prospects to need to ad on strength and Bulk, however you are usually getting significantly more proven coverage ability than the player that was a DE in college. IMO its much easier to teach this prospect some moves and counter moves, while adding 15lbs(assuming his frame is suited for it), than it is to teach Bears how to dance(DE’s how to cover)

          • Wilbert M.

            Here’s how we got here. Watch the film on Dion Jordan. He does not exhibit great pass rushing ability. When he rushes, he bounces back off the OT’s. Maybe all this “potential” can fix it, but right now, the guy is a project and a maybe.

          • Geagle

            I have seen plenty of INCREDIBLE pass rushes out of Dion that would translate in the NFL…I have also seen ones that you described. Do something incredible once, no reason to think that you can’t do it again…teams don’t focus on the bad…they look at the good, figure out how to maximize it will eliminating the bad

      • austinfan

        It’s not that simple, depends on the player’s frame and genetics. One reason workouts are so important these days is players spend two months in high intensity training programs, how they reshape their body provides clues on how they can add weight, whether it will slow them down, etc. I think my favorite example was Tatupu, a 225 MLB in college, tried to bulk up to 238 lbs for the combine, really slowed down and played in the 225-230 lb range for the best years of his career as a very quick, instinctive MLB. What the workouts revealed is the kind of player he was and what he couldn’t do.

        It also depends on the school, the top programs have weight rooms that rival NFL teams, second tier 1-A programs have lesser facilities and less sophisticated training, get a kid from a Div II school and you may have to totally rework his body. A redshirt senior from a big school is unlikely to add a lot of strength, a true freshman from a smaller school might add 10-20 lbs and actually get faster.

        Mingo is really scary, because he couldn’t get over 241 lbs and wouldn’t lift, unless there’s an injury, that’s a huge red flag, big time school, intensive training, and he still can’t fill out. Jordan did get up to 248 lbs – in his case the worry would be whether he can keep it on during the season (some guys struggle to maintain weight room weight because they can’t train intensively during the regular season and their bodies go back to their “natural” weight).

        The other issue is how well they can carry the weight, some guys actually get more explosive in a serious training program (the age factor comes into play because many are just hitting physical maturity at age 21-22, Cox is a good example, but for a redshirt at age 23-24 usually “what you see is what you get” holds true), but most tend to slow down as they add weight, Stafford is a good example, dropped 10 lbs at his pro day from the combine and ran over a tenth of a second faster (or why you have to note the player’s weight and field conditions at pro days). One reason I like to see good tests on jumps is strong legs means the player may be able to add bulk without slowing down that much.

  • @golisi

    Keep up the good work, Tommy. Would love a guy like Mingo who could help cut off the angle against RGIII

  • http://twitter.com/PhiIs_Goodman Phils Goodman

    I’d be significantly more comfortable with this Mingo than Jordan.

    After re-watching LSU cut-ups it became easier to pinpoint when the Tigers went for the kill late in games, got into a “wide-9″ formation and turned the D-ends loose. This is when Mingo started to jump off the screen. I have much less doubt about his real talent level than I do with Jordan.

    The most blatant example would be at 4:45 of this game vs Miss St:

    youtu.be/HZKGp8-BpVs

    The SRS stats credit Mingo and Jordan with similarly average pressure% stats, but I believe Mingo is at a disadvantage in this charting technique and it’s not a truly apples-to-apples comparison. Whereas Jordan’s frequent drops into coverage didn’t hurt his pressure% (because they are not considered pass-rushing opportunities), Mingo WAS essentially docked on all those passing downs where his first key was to go after the passer. My non-expert guess is that often-times Mingo’s first key was play the run, his second key was outside contain on the pocket and his third key was to after the passer.

    I am not going to say that Mingo was “misused” by the coaches, but he was definitely not used in a way that was beneficial for his individual stat totals.

    • Geagle

      Niether was used in a way that could have maximized thier sack totals, which is why, I try to not even look at Mingo and Jordan’s stats when trying to project what they will be…If Dion werent in this draft, I think I would LOVE Mingo. I dont think “needing to add bulk” or “lacking pass rush moves and countermoves” are reasons to not draft either guy, but If Im being honest, I think Jordan’s frame is much more suited to add, and carry the extra bulk..Dions Body control, and ability to bend it to get underneath, and around blockers is INCREDIBLE, and Mingo’s is not on par, and its extremely important as an edge rusher trying to get passed NFL OT’s…
      One thing that really was incredible about Mingo, was if you watch him on sport science, his ability to tip balls at the line of scrimage. They measured his ability to go from crouching down(angaging an OT) to making a quick stop, jump up and tip the ball down…his elevation, and the quickness of his jump was just jaw dropping.
      IMO, neither Mingo or Dion were used in ways in which, thier stats are indicative of what you are getting at the next level…but I will say, that Mingo’s lack of production has to be much more alarming then Jordans. Mingo didnt just convert from playing an offensive skill position. Mingo also had a ton of NFL help around him, somethin Dion did not have, which made gameplanning for Dion much easier. Its not as simple as just, we wont throw or run mingo’s way, when you got NFL horses on the other side as well…also, when I look at the film of a guy like Jarvis Jones, who like Mingo was sorrounded by NFL talent…Jarvis got a ton of coverage sacks, and sacks where his teamates just chased QB’s into his waiting arms(which is why you see him with such a high sack total)…Its alarming to see Mingo, with the NFL talent around him, have a sack total closer to an injured Dion, than that of Jarvis Jones.
      I havent heard anything good or bad about Mingo’s charecter, so thier is just no way I could ever want Mingo ahead of Jordan…but if Jordan is off the board at #2, I would certainly consider Mingo at #4, although you can probably hit a homerun, move back 2-3 spots and still have a shot at Mingo…I think his suitors could be the Jags, Raiders(i could see them just drafting him because of his cool name, that franchise does Dumb ish like that lol), Browns, Maybe Cardinals and Jets(i think would love to have him)..Doubt he makes it past the Saints(he would be scary as a BLITZburg Steeler)

      • http://twitter.com/PhiIs_Goodman Phils Goodman

        I was specifically referring to pressure%. I can’t think of a way that the Oregon scheme would have reduced Jordan’s, while LSU’s did for Mingo.

        I would suggest you watch Mingo work from the 9-technique late in games and compare it to Jordan’s blitzing in obvious passing situations. They are both keying the QB and working the edge. Watch the offensive tackle and see who has the upper hand. You should find that Mingo is visibly harder to handle and more disruptive.

        • Geagle

          Im not trying to diminish Mingo…Believe me, I would LOVE to see him with an eagles Jersey on..but projecting what they become, I would rather have Dion…Just a preference, you certainly are entitled to your own

  • GermanEagle

    Somehow I believe that Mingo has written BUST all over him.

    On that note: Ziggy. Ziggy. Ziggy.

    • TommyLawlor

      Bust? No, that’s just him wearing an LSU t-shirt. You got the letters mixed up.

      I like Ansah quite a bit. Wouldn’t mind him at all.

      • Geagle

        ahahahahahahahaha awesome

  • NoDecaf

    What about Barkevious Mingo’s supposed ties to Lord Voldemort?
    (Harry Potter rim shot)

  • nopain23

    I still think the Iggles trade back this especially as Luke and Dion will be gone. I hope Miami will be really desperate this year and want to move up for Milliner or Fisher. In return for dropping to 12 we get their two second Rd picks and one their 3RD. At 12 I think we get the pass rusher in Jarvis Jones( I don’t care about his combine/pro day numbers the kid was a beast in the SEC)

    Then in the 2RD

    we get

    the OL: fluker/long/melenik

    the DL: jenkins/williams/hankins

    the BPA: escobar/slay/reid

    3RD: barret jones

    wilcox/thomas( safeties)

    • Geagle

      If we cant have Dion, as much as I like so many of these prospects, I would love to trade down and get more picks. If you load up on picks by trading back in round 1, you will have ammunition to trade back into the end of round 1, if you covet a guy like Trufant, Eric Ried, Cyprien,Hankins,Carradine and find them still on the board….Something to keep an eye on, that doesnt get talked about: If the apple of the Eagles eye is off the board at #4, the Eagles trading back to the 15-20 range(probably needing to trade down twice) and drafting EJ Manuel. I dont know how much they like the Kid. but it is kind of exciting to hear him go out on a limb and blantantly tell the world that he wants to be an Eagle. EJ wont make it to #35, so I would much rather see us draft EJ in round 1, while adding all types of valuable top 100 pics in the process…than seeing us give up valuable picks to move up from 35 to get him…and its certainly much more apealing to me than drafting Geno Smith at #4. Of course, if it were up to me we wouldnt draft a single QB this year, but if we had to, thats the scenario I hope for….Im also not opposed to Drysert or Landry Jones if they fall to the appropriate round

      anyone have a enough intel to breakdown Barret Jones Vs. Quessenberry for me in terms of scheme fit for the Eagles, I love Barret Jones(Rocket Science intelligence, Nasty mean streak), but question his fit for us…Does Quessenberry have the same issues? If one of those two fit what we do, man they would add tremendous depth in case of injury emergencies. 1 player that can backup 5 positions is friggin valuable after you just watched 4/5th of your line decimated by injuries…
      I also cant make up my mind in terms of Travis Kelce vs. Gavin Escobar…but I do know that I desperately want one of the two(Heck Id take both if we could flip Celek lol, now Im being greedy)…I get this gut feeling that Ertz and Eifert could become these good solid, Greg Olsen types, while Kelce and Gavin end up being the next superstars…Cant make up my mind on Jordan Reed. But he is more of a James Casey type, when I think we should be looking for a Jared Cook type…I could see us taking a TE early AND adding another if you get to round 7 and find a guy like Furia on the board

      • xeynon

        I would absolutely hate for the Eagles to draft E.J. Manuel anywhere earlier than the 4th round. I think he’s going to be a bust in the NFL.

        • Geagle

          Id rather not draft a QB at all this year…

        • James Adair

          I just can’t help seeing a lot of Akili Smith in EJ.

  • Geagle

    Tom..How much has Mingo’s refusal to bench press for scouts, hurt his stock? I wouldnt care what his number is, because its so easily correctable, but the fact that he refuses to bench kind of bothers me.
    Doesnt bother me enough to not give him serious consideration if Jordan is off the board…One thing I really like Mingo, his how active he is in that he is always trying to bat balls down at the line of scrimmage. Its clearly something he puts an emphasis on, and I bet he will continue to work at it, and could eventually become a poor man’s JJ WATT in that aspect, once his timing improves..,.
    Another question I have: How much of a better prospect was Caleaus Cambell than Devin Taylor?

    • TommyLawlor

      The bench press thing is a red flag. To some teams it will be a bright red flag. Why the heck wasn’t this guy lifting? To others it will be light red (what the heck ever color that is…magenta?). They’ll see the talent and not care too much about the strength. That’s an issue that can be easily fixed.

      I think Devin Taylor is a mid-to-late round pick. I’m not sure I trust him. His workouts don’t match his game tape at all. Looked stiff on tape.

      • Geagle

        Thanks man…..Yeah for me, I wouldnt care what he benched, because Im from the school of thought that its easily improved…but the fact that he refuses to rubs me the wrong way

  • http://www.facebook.com/daniel.n.richwine Daniel Norman Richwine

    It seems we are getting a clearer idea of what is meant by the sports science guy (or whatever his title is). I’m very interested in your thoughts in this. Is this a new waive?

    • http://twitter.com/ezgreene ezgreene

      wave?

    • TommyLawlor

      If the Eagles play well this year, other teams will absolutely start copying Chip Kelly. Teams are curious now, but want to see results before they fully buy in.

  • http://twitter.com/ezgreene ezgreene

    I still don’t get one prime thing with Jordan/Mingo. What bout Graham. He’s a first round pick that the team is high on. And we are having that same team draft over him with their first pick of a new regime? Makes ZERO sense

    • http://twitter.com/sjampendk Patrick

      Graham is primarily a 4-3 DE, which he also played at Michigan. When he came out there was a hope that he was athletic enough to play 3-4 OLB, but I seriously doubt that a torn ACL that included micro-fracture surgery that he can become a pure 34 OLB, and I doubt that he will be able to cover very well. Plus, what have we really seen from him over a longer period? Now he is also shorter than our coaches like. Jordan and Mingo seems to be betters fits as OLBs, both are freakishly athletic and have shown some coverage ability. Graham is a square and we need circles.

      • http://twitter.com/ezgreene ezgreene

        Nope. The team is very high on him.

        • http://twitter.com/sjampendk Patrick

          You have absolutely no way of knowing that. Im guessing that a VERY closed group actually knows how the Eagles feel, and even though it’s a new regime, the Eagles have always been excellent at keeping information to themselves.

    • TommyLawlor

      Graham has never played 3-4 OLB. He has 12 NFL starts. He has 8.5 sacks in the NFL.

      I hope to god Graham does pan out. Really like him and want him to succeed. But…BUT…are you willing to bet on him working out? That’s the question. Hoping for something and counting on it are different things.

      If the Eagles feel strongly that Graham will be a very good OLB, then they will add a LB in the middle rounds and not early.

      • T_S_O_P

        I’d trust him to have a better season than Thornton who you seem far more comfortable with despite having 12 less career NFL starts than Brandon and has also yet to play a snap in the NFL at DE.

  • ceteris_paribus1776

    The major flaw many are falling into with thinking that drafting Mingo or Jordan at #4 is a priority because there are so few other pass rushers to be had is that just because the supply of pass rushers is low, it doesn’t make the quality of the talent pool any better. If these guys aren’t elite pass rushing prospects you don’t draft them that high irrespective of how many there are. That’s exactly why trading back, even at a discount, is the Eagles best option. Missing on top 5 picks is a great way to ensure yourself that you will continue drafting in the top half of the draft. Top 5 picks aren’t drafted on potential and upside. Top 5 picks need to be consensus players.

    If I’m Roseman I’m almost willing to give away the #4 pick to move back a few spots this year and take BPA because the high end talent is so low.

    • http://www.facebook.com/michael.w.cho Michael Winter Cho

      “Give away”? That seems to be a bad idea, considering that the “value” in an average draft is trending toward the lower (as in #1, #2, etc.) . Check out this interesting article about how the Patriots seem to be shifting to this strategy. http://skepticalsports.com/?cat=101

      • ceteris_paribus1776

        You’ve interpreted the article incorrectly. The highest surplus value for draft picks is around pick 33. There hasn’t been any “tending” toward #1 & 2 because the rookie pay scale was just recently

  • ICDogg

    I see some of the sports books are already taking action on Week 1. Eagles, not surprisingly, are underdogs.

    Philadelphia Eagles 51
    WASHINGTON REDSKINS -5.5

  • ICDogg

    Part of me says, just take two “Planet” linemen, say Star and Hankins, in rounds 1 and 2, and play an old fashioned Parcells double bubble.

    • Geagle

      Sometimes I get the same, F IT, lets just add Monsters and start dominating the line of scrimmage feeling

      • ICDogg

        One of the reasons that isn’t done much anymore is that it is really hard to find those guys, but this draft seems to have those guys.

        • Geagle

          This is certainly a meat and potato’s draft, and I hope we take advantage of it

          • ICDogg

            not to mention that big guys beat up little guys… maybe that was a tell :)

            and those would definitely be “foundational” picks.

          • Geagle

            Incredible that its been 14 years since we had someone who believes that Big People should play football

  • deg0ey

    I know he’s unlikely to be a Chip target, but I can’t help but have a soft spot for John Simon. Part of that is me being a huge OSU homer, but part of it is that he’s one of those guys that ‘just makes plays’. Big effort guy, some experience dropping into coverage, some experience at 3-4 OLB and looks too small to play DE in the NFL. If he’s still there in the fourth round he’s someone I’d take a chance on.

  • T_S_O_P

    Tommy, did you see Fletcher on PE.com? If anything, he was erring towards playing DT. 3-4, 4-3 under, nothing seems clear at this moment.

    On the highlights of Cox, shown during the interview, he was playing the 1-tech a lot.

    • ICDogg

      I get the feeling that they were just testing players at things they don’t do frequently to get a feel for what they have and what they need.

      • T_S_O_P

        The highlights were from last year

  • ICDogg

    I don’t know how I missed this a few days ago but Tra Thomas is on the Eagles’ coaching staff.

    http://www.nj.com/eagles/index.ssf/2013/04/tra_thomas_works_with_eagles_a.html

    • Geagle

      really? this is the first Im hearing about it…guess he is done with the Media

  • Sifter

    One factor about picking Jordan that interests me is potential locker room impact. You’re picking a guy at #4 who comes from Oregon and doesn’t have a particularly impressive stats records in college. It would be very easy to regard Jordan as a kind of nepotism pick ie. Chip Kelly playing favourites. Add to that, Jordan would be competing for playing time with the 2 highest paid defenders on the roster (Cole and Barwin), and a former 1st rounder who has been underplayed (Graham). In that scenario it wouldn’t be hard to foresee some low level bitching to start from that trio, and for general unease to rise a little bit in the locker room. From a cohesion point of view, Jordan may not be a great pick.

  • Sifter

    Another factor on draft boards and top heavy, bottom heavy etc. If Eagles are looking specifically for a pass rushing LB, then yes it looks top heavy, but I think there are only a handful in the top 100 (Jordan, Mingo, J.Jones, J.Collins, Lemonier). Add in converted DEs and it looks different of course eg. John Simon, Sam Montgomery, Damontre Moore. OT and DT look pretty top heavy too. My consensus big board I’ve been compiling has 4 OTs in the first round (3 very high), 2 in the 2nd (Watson and Armstead), 3 in the 3rd-4th round (Long, Bakhtairi, D.Thomas). Looks like pretty lean picking between picks 10-70 with Watson, Armstead and Long sure to be reached for in that area somewhere. Seems like if Eagles are hoping for a 2nd or 3rd round OT they will need to reach. DT might be similar if Eagles wait until the 3rd. I’ve got 3 high first rounders (Star, Floyd, Richardson), 5 sitting around the 30-45 mark (S & J Williams, Short, Jenkins, Hankins), then a fair gap to Brennan Williams at and Bennie Logan. Assuming the Eagles don’t really love one guy in particular, it seems the most efficient way to draft would be to trade down to get the 3rd OT left out of Joeckel, Fisher and Johnson and trade down to get the last DT in the 2nd round.

  • Gregory Post

    I want Barkevious Mingo solely so that we can go for broke and draft Jadeveon Clowney next year. We would have the most pass rushers with the silliest names in the league next year.

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