The McGloin Effect

Posted: May 6th, 2013 | Author: | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 63 Comments »

Bill O’Brien took over as head coach at Penn State early in 2012. O’Brien was challenged in a number of ways. He had to succeed Joe Paterno. He had to deal with fallout from the nightmare of the Jerry Sandusky situation. He had to keep players from leaving.  And O’Brien had to fix an offense that had finished 95th in yards and 110th in scoring.

O’Brien brought a no-huddle offense from his time with the New England Patriots. He had to teach the new system to his players. He had to make his QB an expert in the system, as well as trying to hone his passing skills. O’Brien was working with former walk-on Matt McGloin. There is a lot to admire about McGloin, but he’s not physically gifted and isn’t the most skilled passer. O’Brien faced a major challenge.

McGloin went from being a below-average QB to leading the Big Ten in passing yards and TDs. PSU went 8-4.  The team finished 53rd in yards and 62nd in scoring. That may not sound great, but remember how they finished in 2011. O’Brien did a phenomenal job with McGloin and the offense. O’Brien wasn’t able to do everything he wanted and he didn’t have great personnel, but the foundation was laid. PSU adjusted to the no-huddle attack pretty well. The team finished 2nd in the conference in plays per game, a key stat for up-tempo teams.

O’Brien learned the no-huddle offense early on in his college days. He then worked on it while in New England. One of the people who helped the Patriots with their no-huddle attack was then Oregon coach Chip Kelly. O’Brien and Kelly have been friends for years, since both were small college assistants in the northeast. They don’t run the same system. Kelly’s is purely based on college football. O’Brien’s is a combination of what he learned under Ralph Friedgen in college and what he picked up while working for the Patriots. There are plenty of similarities in the two systems.

I think we can look at what Penn State did in 2012 for some idea of what Kelly might do with the Eagles.

The Oregon offense was run heavy. The Ducks ran the ball 685 times. They threw 373 passes. Think about that for a second. Oregon was 65-35 run to pass. That sounds great, but isn’t practical for the NFL. It worked there because you could build up a a big lead on teams like Arkansas State, Tennessee Tech, Fresno State, or Washington State and then just run the ball relentlessly. Offenses in the NFL must be more balanced, or err on the side of throwing.

Penn State ran the ball 475 times and threw it 456 times in 2012. That is great balance. I don’t know that Kelly will be able to even pull that off, but it is much more likely than what Oregon did.

It is also interesting to study PSU since you had O’Brien going in there with a new system. Kelly ran an established system in Oregon. I went back and studied tape of both offenses to see how well each ran the no-huddle attack. There is no question that Oregon ran it better. PSU did have some very good moments. Their NASCAR package (really fast) was effective and the team was 10 to 12 seconds from one play being over to the next snap. When just going at a normal no-huddle pace, PSU was 15 to 20 seconds from a play being over to the next snap.

We don’t yet know how much no-huddle Kelly will use in the NFL. It is expected to be a big part of the offense, but the NFL is so different than college football that I think Kelly will have to see how things work and then make adjustments. Kelly’s goal is to attack and wear down his opponents, but when the no-huddle struggles, teams can wear down Kelly’s defense.  It is likely that Kelly will mix in normal pace with no-huddle and also have a super-fast tempo that he uses occasionally.

PSU’s scheme was very different from Oregon in that it involved no designed QB running. McGloin was a passer. He would scramble on occasion, but even then his first instinct was to find a receiver to get the ball to. McGloin was used on QB sneaks, but that is it.  PSU’s offense really did look like an NFL offense. The primary personnel were 2 TEs, 2 WRs, and a RB. They would align in a variety of ways. The offense featured a workhorse WR, Allen Robinson, and a workhorse TE, Kyle Carter.  Robinson had 77 receptions and 11 TDs. Carter had 36 receptions and 2 TDs (while missing 2 games).

The offense threw plenty of short passes so that WRs and TEs could get RAC yards. The offense would also throw down the field in order to stretch out the defense and keep the Safeties from crowding the LOS. PSU had a workhorse runner in Zach Zwinak. He is a 230-pound RB that attacks downhill. He finished the year with 1,000 yards on the nose. Bill O’Brien originally intended Bill Belton, a smaller player and former QB/WR, to be the key runner. Injuries hurt him and Zwinak seized the job.

Oregon used smaller runners in Kenjon Barner and De’Anthony Thomas. They combined for 2,468 yards. The PSU run game was methodical. Oregon’s was explosive. Oregon spread the ball around in the pass game. There were 8 players with 19 or more receptions. Thomas led the way with 45 catches. There was no workhorse receiver.

PSU snd Oregon each ran a no-huddle attack. They each primarily used 2 TEs, 2 WRs, and a RB. From there, things got very different. It may seem somewhat odd we’re talking more about PSU here than Oregon, but that template feels much better suited to the NFL. O’Brien took college concepts and adapted them in a way that fits the NFL game. College football and the NFL are moving toward each other schematically more than ever, but there still are differences.

I think one of Steve Spurrier’s big mistakes was assuming that what worked so well for him in college would work for sure in the NFL. Confidence is good, hubris is bad. Look back at the offensive staff Spurrier put together for his 2002 team:

HC/OC/QB – Steve Spurrier (Florida grad)
OL/Asst OC – Kim Helton (Florida grad, experience as NFL OL coach)
RB – Hue Jackson (first NFL job)
WR – Steve Spurrier Jr (need I say more)
TE – Lawson Holland (from Florida staff)
Asst QB – Noah Brindise (Florida QB & from UF staff)
Asst OL – John Hunt (from Florida staff)

Spurrier loaded up with his buddies and headed off to the NFL to showcase his system. Chip Kelly loaded his staff with veteran coaches from all over. Some he knew, others he didn’t. He hired a strong OC in Pat Shurmur, who knows the NFL inside-out. Kelly hired a QB coach in Bill Lazor that has a good track record.

Kelly is not going to force his offense on the NFL. He will take bits and pieces, but he’s smart enough to know that just because it worked in the Pac-12 doesn’t mean it will work in pro football. Kelly will adapt. The Skins, by the way, never finished inside the Top 20 in points or yards in Spurrier’s 2 seaons there.

If you go back and study Kelly’s career, he has changed offenses a few times. One of his biggest strengths is the fact he keeps an open mind and isn’t married to one single concept or style. New Hampshire was built around RB Jerry Azumah when he was there. Then the offense was built around QB Ricky Santos. Oregon has adapted to a variety of QBs and RBs. Oregon is always among the national leaders in rushing. The passing game has been more erratic. It has been ranked as low as 98th and as high as 39th. The offense always scores points and the team wins. Kelly finds a way to make it happen.

Kelly and O’Brien stay in touch, mainly through texting these days. I don’t know that Kelly has talked to him much about what he should do in the NFL, but it would not surprise me in the least to find out that Kelly studied some of what Penn State did to get ideas on a more NFL-centric version of the no-huddle, spread attack.

There aren’t a lot of great videos of the Penn State offense to check out, but here is one. This is actually a cut-up of Illinois LB Michael Buchanan against PSU. You can see the kinds of run and pass plays that PSU used in 2012. This isn’t necessarily what Chip Kelly will do, but it is one possibility. This is the NFL version of some Kelly concepts.

One other thing to consider is that McGloin ran this offense. Both Nick Foles and Matt Barkley could run this offense. If Michael Vick is the QB, there will be some QB running, but if Foles or Barkley win the job, this is what we might be watching.

* * * * *

Old article about Kelly, O’Brien and the no-huddle.

Good FishDuck article on a no-huddle sequence from the Fiesta Bowl.

Oregon stats

PSU stats

* * * * *

A reminder…the Eagles Almanac is being put together as we speak. My lengthy write-up on how Chip Kelly is the Megan Fox of coaches should be reason enough to support the project.

Okay, that’s what I wanted to write, but Megan’s attorneys convinced me it wouldn’t be all that wise. Instead, you’ll have to settle for just good football talk.


63 Comments on “The McGloin Effect”

  1. 1 hotcakes33 said at 11:37 AM on May 6th, 2013:

    And this is why I can’t wait for the season. Tommy writes articles that get people excited. It’s like he puts bacon in them or something! Maybe its pudding.

  2. 2 Anders said at 11:58 AM on May 6th, 2013:

    Bacon pudding maybe?

  3. 3 TommyLawlor said at 12:26 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Please remove your bacon from my pudding, good sir.

  4. 4 Anders said at 12:46 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    So just bacon and pudding, not together?

  5. 5 TommyLawlor said at 1:36 PM on May 6th, 2013:


  6. 6 Jack Waggoner said at 2:36 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Bacon and chocolate pudding would probably taste good together.

  7. 7 Iskar36 said at 11:49 AM on May 6th, 2013:

    One thing I am still waiting to find out about Kelly is how strong our passing game can be. Kelly clearly had a ton of success in college in the run game, and I’m sure he will bring a lot of that to the NFL, but as you pointed out, his team’s passing game were never special. In the NFL, as you pointed out, it is a passing league, and I am sure Kelly will make adjustments towards that, but obviously that has not been the strength of his offense in the past. It will definitely be interesting to see how he makes those adjustments in the NFL and how he can balance his running style with an NFL style passing game.

  8. 8 TommyLawlor said at 12:00 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Ricky Santos at UNH was a great I-AA QB.

  9. 9 theycallmerob said at 6:01 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    aye, he was…he beat us (U. Delaware) up, even after Flacco came aboard.
    And thank you for still referring to it as I-AA.

  10. 10 BreakinAnklez said at 12:14 PM on May 7th, 2013:

    UNH had a great passing offense with Chip, Santos and WR David Ball. They dominated I-AA through the air.

  11. 11 Sean Scheinfeld said at 11:58 AM on May 6th, 2013:

    The Seahawks ran the ball 55% of the time last year and that worked out pretty well for them. Kelly can probably run even a little closer to 60% and still be effective.

  12. 12 TommyLawlor said at 12:00 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Fluke. They had a great defense and played with the lead much of the year. Can’t count on that.

  13. 13 Mac said at 12:36 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    I may be overly simplistic on my views, but what I admire about the Patriot offense when I’ve seen it is that they seem to find exploitable match ups. Its maddening rooting against them because they seemgly run the same play multiple times during a drive and even back to back with lethal efficiency. When the defense adapts, then Brady puts the ball somewhere else. I kept coming away feeling like their plans were simple yet brilliant. Find the favorable target and go there. I’m excited after so many uears of martyball to have a coach who is willing to look at what’s actually going on in the game rather than focusing on what he thinks should be happening based on film study during the week. I look forward to NOT hearing the words, “we thought we saw some things there…”

  14. 14 Patrick said at 1:14 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    You and me both man. I love the simplistic mindset thinking if you’re gonna put your rookie CB who is wildly overmatched in talent, speed/size or experience against DeSean or Celek and never give him help, we’re just gonna keep going that way until you change it.

    I loved watching this video:
    I just giggle like a 10 year old schoolgirl with the genius in saying, you have 2 CBs covering 3 WRs? Well, then we just get it out there and take the 10 yards down the field, to where you’re S can make the tackle and when they adjust, golly day, we’re just going to pound the rock since you haven’t got numbers in the box.

  15. 15 Mac said at 1:29 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Nice link. It’s so easy to get excited about our new HC.

  16. 16 cliff henny said at 4:06 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    best part about was ‘didnt run another bubble screne’. kelly really doesnt care how he moves the ball. with reid, mccoy could have 5 runs for 30 yards to start off series, but you knew once he was stopped once, it was going to be all throwing from there on out.

  17. 17 Kevin said at 5:11 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Playing the Patriots… I call it the Borg effect. You take a few shots at them and then they adapt. Resistance is futile.

  18. 18 theycallmerob said at 6:03 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Very, very well articulated.
    “If you can’t explain it to a six year old, you don’t understand it yourself.” ― Albert Einstein

  19. 19 Eric Weaver said at 12:43 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Obviously not the point of this article, but it just goes to show how far Paterno, Jay P and Hall were from where modern football is, both in college and the NFL.

  20. 20 TommyLawlor said at 12:45 PM on May 6th, 2013:


  21. 21 cliff henny said at 3:56 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    first time in years i truly enjoyed watching PSU football. was i nice joining the 21st century, not stuck in the ’70’s.

  22. 22 ACViking said at 12:46 PM on May 6th, 2013:


    After Reid’s dismissal, did the Eagles approach Chipper first or O’Brien first?

    Either way, Lurie (not Laurie!) and Roseman would have had an aggressive offensive coach with a progressive 2-TE scheme.

  23. 23 TommyLawlor said at 1:36 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Chip was the first target.

  24. 24 jshort said at 7:21 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Speaking of Lurie,after seeing a picture of the betrothed this morning., I immediately invested in Pfizer, fearing he might corner the market on viagra. He didn’t do bad at all !!!

  25. 25 GEagle said at 7:47 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Have some respect

  26. 26 jshort said at 10:57 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Respect? For who? For what? Did Jeff respect his initial wedding vows?

    That post was meant to inject a little humor, and if it offended you, I sincerely apologize.

    I do hope, sir, you will be the first to reprimand the next person who posts something sexist about Dorenbos’s wife.

  27. 27 GEagle said at 10:27 AM on May 7th, 2013:

    I was actually joking…sorry that it wasn’t clear lol We can roast Jeffries wife all day long lol IM DOWN!!!

  28. 28 jshort said at 2:06 PM on May 7th, 2013:

    Oops! Sorry! I thought you were serious. How did you like the “For Who For What” line, though? lol

  29. 29 Ian Patrick said at 1:28 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    i agree Tommy. i think chip is looking to adapt his oregon game and take bits and pieces of worked so well in new england and apply them here. it makes me excited that we might finally move on from the running QB era. not saying i do not respect vick but i feel like his writing is on the wall. every article i read makes me think trade bait. its 2 guys who can sling it, and one guy who is a journeyman running qb with one year in the O system and the other is a former AR favorite who was allowed to ad-lib. while i think vick can thrive in a quicker drop system, there are just some habits that have become so disheartening to watch i almost expect them to rear there heads like they are a horror movie cliche. i respect vick the man for how hes grown, still want to punch him in the face but his attitude at this point needs to be that he is okay with holding a clip board and helping Foles and Barkley or he seriously needs to GTFO. i would seriously rather have hunger, inexperience, with tangible and intangibles bustling over, than have some vet who is looking to latch on to a new big contract that he will never see the end of. i respect vick but i think hes as good as gone. i grew up on Cunningham and Donovan but even i know that even amid RG3 and aaron rodgers and vick newton and freeman and ryan and whomever else you wanna add to the title picture….repetitve accuracy wins superbowls. not over reliance on god given athleticism. you can be athletic but you must also be cerebral. elway, brady, flacco, rodgers, favre…they all can put it in a tight spot every fucking time. i think foles or barkley have a chance to be just that. not sold on barkley, but i absolutely love Foles and i think he has a chance to endear himself to Philly in a way that the eagles havent had. playing with a broken hand is just incredible. the kid has stones. and if he flounders…you have Barkley psychotically hitting the weights and the film room playing every Foles misstake and season misstep back on a endless loop. Hunger. desire. like my favorite old NFL games used to say in NFL 2K5…you cant coach that.

  30. 30 Liam Garrett said at 1:37 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    While I’m pulling for Vick a little more than you are, Tommy, and other people are, I just want to say I thought you made your point well yesterday. A dream-come-true would be to have 3 very good or great seasons from Vick, but having Barkley step in right away and get started on a potentially special, long career is preferable. Neither are likely, of course, but the latter would be Heaven on Earth.

    (The IDEAL would obviously be that Vick summons up the champion we never he had in him, and makes one last great, Herculean effort, winning 2 or 3 Super Bowls, then passes off the team to Barkley whose steady regimen of Chip Kelly smoothies and Ivan Drago workouts has put some zip in his pass, and he leads the still-young team to future glory, of which you shall celebrate and sing in Valhalla once you’ve ascended there as a being of pure light and pudding. Clearly, this ideal is not entirely likely and involves a lot of mixed metaphors, but I’ve already decided to get my hopes up.)

  31. 31 shah8 said at 2:10 PM on May 6th, 2013:


    Keep in mind that part of the reason NE passes to their TEs is because they are really great TEs, and they don’t have great WRs. The blend of plays would be slightly different if the facts were otherwise, and why not, vet coach, vet QB.

    I do wonder whether Chip will take a hefty chunk out of Darrel Bevell’s playbook. I think Tommy’s assertion about the Seahawks is more appropriate for the Texans (or ’04-’06 Falcons, for that matter). By the end of the season Wilson was running a pretty high octane offense and racking up passing TDs. They also were able to come back from being down quite effectively. The Texans, on the other hand, were a rushing team with a very limited ability to come back.

    Why gets to be pretty obvious, when you look at the 49’ers…Compare the game against the Vikings and the game against the Patriots. A QB that’s capable of reliably making a variety of deeper throws, on an ad-hoc basis makes all the difference. Russell Wilson could make the Atlanta defense pay for their control of the running game–with Zach Miller running free 20, 30 yards down. Matt Schaub and Matt Ryan can’t really do that, though the latter has led a few gamewinning drives himself.

    There is a reason all the QBs without definite NFL arms got pushed to the fourth round, guys. Arm strength *is* material, especially if you hope to make any noise in the playoffs. It’s like, at worst, the third most important attribute, because in today’s game, a QB has to be able to beat you with his arm, and not wait for you to make a mistake. Franchises that aren’t serious about winning are perfectly content with the Andy Daltons of the world. Win a few games, sell a few beers, rake in redistributed TV ad money (even though you’re in the JAX tv market), and a solemn promise to do better, next year–all the while, the capital asset of the football team increases, regardless of wins and losses.

    If Lurie and Chip Kelly are about winning, Foles will have to hit a few deeper passes, nail a few tight windows, or he’s riding the pine. No matter how well “he reads a defense”.

  32. 32 austinfan said at 3:26 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Garcia had no arm but could throw it deep by anticipating when his receiver would break open. You can do that out of a run oriented system by setting up the DBs.

    Barkley has enough arm strength, and Foles has more than enough strength if he fixes his mechanics, Romo certainly manages to make big plays on a regular basis (just not in big games).

    Rich Gannon was able to put up yards and points in Gruden’s offense, he got shut down by a Buc defense that shut down everyone, including a strong armed McNabb.

    Dalton would be fine if he had better players, he has Green and what else? Gresham has never stepped up as a receiver, they’ve never developed a #2 WR or a slot WR, Green-Ellis as a RB (lousy receiver), solid OL but not great pass blockers. Imagine Dalton with the stable of skill players the Eagles have accumulated.

  33. 33 Anders said at 4:50 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    They did draft Eifert and Bernard this year and also drafted Sanu last year

  34. 34 GEagle said at 10:30 AM on May 7th, 2013:

    Yeah, I actually think the Bengals are pretty damn stacked in there pass catching arsenal..It’s year 3, and the Ginger has been playing since day one…time to take that next step. shit or get off the pot…
    could you imagine if Jay Gruden were our coach right now instead of the Chipster?

  35. 35 ACViking said at 4:22 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Seems like you’re suggesting that Mike Vick should be the QB — even though, despite his arm, he’s won 2 playoff games in 10 seasons.

    Montana and Young . . . no one would confuse them with Dan Marino

    Peyton Manning . . . his brother has the powerful arm

    And Tom Brady . . . won 3 SBs with a noodle arm from ’01-’04.

    I won’t even run through the Bart Starrs, Len Dawsons, Bob Greises, Joe Theismans, Jim Plunketts, Jim McMahons, Jeff Hostetlers, or the Mark Rypiens of the NFL.

    Bill Walsh never believed a QB needed a strong arm. Walsh wanted accurate passers who were leaders and thinkers under pressure.

  36. 36 Anders said at 4:51 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    How dare you use logic!

  37. 37 shah8 said at 5:35 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Oh look, a grandpa found his dentures…Bob Griese? *Really*?

    On a more serious note

    Montana and Young did not have notably weaker arms than their peers, and in fact, Young had a pretty strong arm himself. Montana’s game would not translate at all well in today’s cap-land NFL–remember, his start was during the end of the Age of Running Backs, and he largely played on stacked teams with HOF talent seemingly everywhere.

    Peyton Manning, in fact, does have a strong arm, and Tom Brady won on the back of his defense and his kicker, just as much as he relied on his own talent. We’re not talking about arms races. We’re not talking about some remote epoch of the sport. We’re talking about the basic ability to make all the throws. And one true tradition of online NFL idiocy, is to pretend that undertalented people can play as NFL starter, using “timing” and “knowledge of the game” and “being a winnah!” Colt McCoy was defended on this basis, even though he couldn’t even accurately pass 6 yards in the NFL (look it up, amazing stat). Colt McCoy mostly ran around with no plan, and threw to wide open guys–with the majority of his nicer passes being 20 yard throws only a few radians or less from directly in front of him. Christian Ponder was defended on this basis, even though he, as well, could only rarely make good throws. Even though Ponder has barely enough arm strength, he aims every throw so much that basic six yard slants and outs were incredibly dangerous in his first year. That Ponder does not even get certain important passing playcalls that a QB usually is able to accomplish. Same for Jimmy Clausen, though he was never defended. Same with Matt Leinart or Brady Quinn. Do you know what a QB who relies on guile and touch looks like? Matt Moore and Shaun Hill. Do you see *them* starting in the league? No?

    There’s the Matt Ryan line. Kevin Kolb straddles it. But then he was a real starting prospect. Both Barkley and Foles are beneath it. Ryan has *never* had problems throwing an adequate deep ball. Ryan has *never* had problems throwing deep outs with a CB/S close by. He just can’t really muscle the ball on short notice. Foles doesn’t actually throw decent deep balls. His DC TD is about the prettiest pass he’s done, and it wasn’t that pretty. Foles doesn’t throw outs deeper than about 9 yards, typically, and certainly not with reasonably tight coverage. Nothing like Kolb to DJax @ Atlanta. Nothing like Kolb’s short range TD passes to TEs. As it stands, Foles doesn’t have the talent to play as starting QB, and there isn’t anything to be said about that. You can pretend, if you like, that a third round QB in a league with something like 15-20 actual QBs out of 32 is gonna be the greatest thing since sliced bread.

  38. 38 Iskar36 said at 6:26 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    I really like seeing dissenting views on articles by Tommy because it can bring about interesting debates and at the very least provide a different point of view. In addition, typically on here, the dissenting view is written in a way that is not intended of being critical of the writer, but in a way that simply provides a difference of opinion. Having said that, coming out and writing a personal attack when someone disagrees with your opinion by writing something like, “Oh look, a grandpa found his dentures…” is completely unnecessary, especially when ACViking, one of the most respected commenters on here, was simply providing a counter argument.

    Shah8, more often than not, I disagree with your views, but you provide an argument for them that at the very least make them worth discussing. The personal attack though, adds nothing to your post and honestly takes away a lot from your ideas and comments in the post.

  39. 39 shah8 said at 6:51 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Grandpa Simpson is right below, you know, providing inspiration. And I wanted big flashing red light (or a lovely hockey-style bodycheck) on what is a bad or bad faith argument. Which is actually notable, you see. OLD PLAYERS from a long time ago. You know, no Brett Favres, or Troy Aikman, or Drew Brees. Gee, I wonder why he didn’t mention Brad Johnson, Super Bowl QB?

    Also, a personal attack has to be *personal*, and I did tie the grampa statement to the *argument*. If you want to make the tone argument, be my guest, but I don’t respond to “how rude”s because they are usually bad faith anyways, since that would be preferable way to “win” than actually defending AC Viking’s utterly untenable assertion.

  40. 40 shah8 said at 7:02 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    I suppose it also needs to be said…If I don’t actually like you, I usually don’t read what you say or respond to you. I don’t up or down you. I don’t care about you, even to insult your mother. I do not, however, dislike or disrespect ACViking, which is why he gets a reply, and a detailed one.

  41. 41 since1961 said at 9:40 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Ah! Morton without manners.

  42. 42 A_T_G said at 10:33 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    You supposed incorrectly. Something needed to be said. That wasn’t it.

  43. 43 A_T_G said at 10:52 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    For someone self-described as “as intellectual as they come,” your arguments come across more as an adolescent who believes that if they say something often enough and loud enough they will be right and everyone will see it, rather than someone seeking an honest conversation that includes actually considering the opinions of the others involved. Saying the opposite thing, with “in fact” inserted does little to advance the conversation.

    If you were trying to draw attention to ACs argument, you did about as poor a job as can be done. Better, perhaps would have been to disagree and maybe even ask a question.

    For example, you assert that NE focuses on the TEs because their TEs are better than their wide receivers. I think you have the chicken and the egg backwards. There was a time when NE had a strong WR corp. rather than restock, they chose to invest resources in TEs. Doesn’t that seem more like a choice rather than playing the cards you are dealt?

    Finally, did you really say you were trying to win an argument on the Internet?!

  44. 44 Anders said at 7:24 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    But Barkley and Foles can make all the throws. So I dont see what your point is? Does Foles has problem with his footwork that need fixing? Yes, but that does not mean he cant make all the throws.
    Foles and Barkley got the same arm strength as Manning and Brady, but what separates them is their flawless mechanic and their brain.
    If the NFL was all about arm strength then Vick should start because nobody can fire a laser like he can.

  45. 45 shah8 said at 7:48 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    No, they can’t, or at least Foles can’t. I mean, some of you all just aren’t really feeling me. Like the Bob Griese thing–forget the era for a minute, have you ever actually watched clips of those old games? Or grasp why Griese was the number four pick? Or understood why Griese *had* to come back in and relieve Morrel despite a leg broken by Deacon friggin’ Jones?

    I mean, no, the listing of old QBs was really, really, crazy!

  46. 46 Anders said at 8:08 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Foles can, when his footwork is right, problem is when his footwork is wrong he does not have the armpower to just lazer it in anyway, but you can teach footwork, you cant teach arm strength.
    Also im not talking about Griese, im talking about modern day QBs like Manning, Brady, Dalton etc. who do not have cannon for arms, but can still make all the throws.

  47. 47 GEagle said at 10:33 AM on May 7th, 2013:

    I’m not even sure you need to teach much footwork…I went back and watched him in the preseason rec

  48. 48 Anders said at 11:55 AM on May 7th, 2013:

    Problem with Foles coming out was his footwork. Its true that for the most part its very good, problem is that sometimes when he moves the pocket (something he does like the best) he forget to reset his feet and therefor we see a throw like the missed Maclin TD against the bengals. It there where Manning and Brady are miles a head of Foles, so while their mechanics does break down under pressure, if they escape it, they always reset their feet.

  49. 49 Jack Waggoner said at 2:37 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    After reading this I have a pain in my McGloin.

  50. 50 TommyLawlor said at 3:15 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    That joke is even better in Grandpa Simpson’s voice.

  51. 51 Jack Waggoner said at 3:51 PM on May 6th, 2013:

  52. 52 austinfan said at 3:17 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Actually, Chip has given us some ideas what he’s gong to do.

    He mentioned that one reason he hired Shurmer is that his pass routes in Oregon were similar to those of the WCO, I assume he means the Walsh WCO, not the AR/MM hybrid WCO/Martz offense. So look for lots of screens and slants.

    He ran a zone blocking system in Oregon with athletic but undersized OL, he hired an OL coach who teaches a zone blocking system with more physical but less mobile OL. The games Oregon’s offense struggled where those when they were overpowered on the LOS. So it seems to me he wants to compromise, he wants athletic linemen who can block on the second level and set up big plas, but are also big enough to get movement on the LOS. So Peters, Mathis, Herremans, Lane are good fits, Kelly is a bit odd, not that athletic, but when he fills out should be a very physical OT. Menkin and Watkins are converted LTs, not especially athletic, but far more mobile than someone like Warmack.

    He’s added a true H-back in Casey, a move TE in Ertz, he has two big athletic WR/TE hybrids in Momah and Carrier, and a bunch of big WRs in Cooper, Benn, McNutt, Cunningham and Salas. These aren’t guys you’re gonna be sending on deep routes on a regular basis, but they’re big enough to block LBs and Safeties and set up mismatches.

    So I see something borrowed, something green, zone blocking run game with WCO passing elements and some of NE’s two TE offense. And I’ll predict right now both DeSean and Maclin won’t be on the team come September – because there’s only one ball and both only have value if they’re on the field (given DeSean’s salary and Maclin’s cost to extend) I think Chip is more interested in the right mix of skill people than having a few stars he feeds the ball. In that sense he’s like the early AR, spreading the touches around.

  53. 53 GEAgle said at 4:48 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    everyone talks about how Shurmur is going to help the pass game, but he will probably have as much, if not more impact on the run game…when Foles wins the Job, the read option becomes a wildcat package, so Shurmur is going to have to implement a more pro style running game. Sure the thought of Shady and Bryce in a triple zone read sounds apealing…but Shady has already devoured the league without ever having the luxury of the Zone read…so its not the end of the world….We always talk about how exciting it is to finally have a coach that will run the ball, but today it really hit me…We probably have a top 3 RB combo, the most athletic OT’s in the league, and a coach wh has no problem pounding the ball down teams throats…RB’s have been devalued in the NFL, but none more so than in Philly..Today, Im starting to drool at what we are going to see out of RB’s…as eagles fans, we alweays knew we had great backs, but it never really mattered because our coach refused to use them….To have Shady and Bryce, with Chip Kelly calling the plays, is just soooo exciting

  54. 54 Telmert said at 7:10 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Agree x 10. Especially the last bit. Shady, Brown, Celek, Ertz, Casey – they’re all going to play. There will be some snaps for the 3-4 WRs on the team (Cooper, Benn, Avant, Momah, whoever). There are only 5 spots for all of those players to share snaps at. I don’t see how Jackson and especially Maclin get enough snaps and touches to match up to their value. Seems like a luxury they can’t really afford – convert some of that unusable value to a position of weakness.

  55. 55 holeplug said at 8:21 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Maclin will have to block this year and Avant just isn’t very good. I could see Avant not making final cuts actually. Jackson isn’t going anywhere b/c of his speed.

  56. 56 GEagle said at 10:46 AM on May 7th, 2013:

    Crazy to look at the transformation of our pass catchers…For a while we looked like Midgets, now the redone could look like the land of Giants…With that said, I think a guy who got really lucky is dAmaris Johnson because there aren’t many small, BURNERS for him o compete with to backup Desean…A guy like Riley Cooper has a dog fight ahead of him with Erelius Benn in town…yes, Ertz and Celek will see the field together, but if Celek plays like he did last year, Ertz can jump him on the depth chart by midseason, and take his snaps when only 1 TE is on the field.Maclin has his feet to the fire anyway from going into a contract year..I will be pissed if we cut Avant. I find it very difficult to believe that we can’t get a 7th round pick from him from a veteran Contender
    Ike the pAts or Broncos…Heck, he is cheap, and the Ravens went Young, maybe they John Harbaugh strengthens the locker rooms and gives the young recievers a veteran presence…If Momah and Benn are good enough to make an imact, we could be scary

  57. 57 ACViking said at 3:36 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Re: Speaking of QBs drafted in back to back drafts

    In the 47 common drafts since the NFL/AFL merger in 1967, the Eagles have drafted QBs in back-to-back drafts three times.

    The first pair were the ’91-’92 drafts.

    In 1991, Kotite used a 5th Rd pick on U-Miami QB Craig Erickson — who refused to sign a contract and went back into the ’92 draft (can you really blame him though?). The Bucs used a 4th Rd pick on Erickson, who became their starter for two seasons before being replaced by Trent Dilfer and drifting out of the NFL after the ’97 season.

    In 1992, Kotite drafted Florida State QB Casey Weldon — who, like Erickson, never played a down for the Eagles. Weldon made the team in ’92. But was cut at the end of training camp in ’93 . . . after which he joined the Bucs and former Eagles’ pick Craig Erickson. Weldon finished his six-year career with 1 TD pass.

    The next set of back-to-back picks came in ’96 and ’97.

    In Rd 3 of the 1996 draft, Ray Rhodes selected the Eagles QB of the future, Bobby Hoying from Ohio State. He sat on the pine in ’96. Started 6 games in ’97. Earned the opening-day not in ’98 and had a diastrous run of 7 games — throwing ZERO touchdowns and 9 INTS. Hoying moved onto Oakland, rejoining his former Eagles OC and then-Raiders HC John Gruden. Out of football after the 2000 season.

    In the 1997 draft, in Rd 7, the Eagles stole U-Colorado’s Koy Detmer. He may have been the best holder in NFL history. Worth noting, he had a stronger arm than ’92 pick Casey Weldon — which tells you even more about Kotite that you don’t want to know. Detmer last 9 years with the Eagles (and had that great start in ’02 on MNF against the 49ers before dislocating his elbow and giving way to 2nd-year QB AJ Feeley).

    The final pair of back-to-back drafts . . . . 2012 and 2013.

    Nick Foles and Matt Barkley.

    They have to be better than Erickson and Weldon; and Hoying and Detmer. They just have to be.

  58. 58 TommyLawlor said at 6:03 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    In 1995 the Eagles took QB Dave Barr from Cal in the 4th round so they had 3 in a row from 1995-97.

  59. 59 ACViking said at 6:13 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    T-Law —

    You’re right, of course.

    I had that in my notes and missed it!

    Nice catch. Another 4th Rounder, too.

  60. 60 ACViking said at 3:53 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Re: Who Remembers Conelius Ingram?

    2009 draft. 5th Rd pick. Tall. Fast. Athletic. But a bad knee.

    I think Reid had big plans for Ingram. The Saints’ Marques Colston, a TE at Hofstra while in college, had just finished his third year in the NFL. The guy was dominating (with the help of a HOF-bound QB).– in 32 starts, he had 201 receptions, 3000 yards receiving, and 24 TDs.

    CI seemed the perfect mismatch. He was 6’4″ 245lbs (or so). Fast as a WR. Big as a TE. Ingram’s about the same size as the Pats Hernandez.

    What difference-maker CI could have been.

  61. 61 austinfan said at 10:52 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    I think he had big plans for LJ Smith, reason he took him over Witten was his speed, saw him as a WR/TE hybrid before that was “hot.” Unfortunately he didn’t appreciate that speed wasn’t as valuable as hands and route running.

  62. 62 ACViking said at 2:00 PM on May 8th, 2013:


  63. 63 Jack Waggoner said at 8:03 PM on May 6th, 2013:

    Pre-ordered my copy of the almanac today.