More On “The Decision”
Posted: August 20th, 2013 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 138 Comments »Michael Vick is the most polarizing Eagle I’ve ever seen. He brings out some really strong reactions in people, both for and against him. So let’s talk about that for a minute.
Some of the people against Vick still are unhappy with his dogfighting days and Vick’s criminal behavior. Those folks are going to pretty much hold a grudge against him for life. That’s their right. Vick did some horrible things and if they feel that way, there’s nothing that will really change it.
Other fans against Vick used to support him. They fell in love with the guy from 2010, who looked so special. Those fans bought in, hook, line and sinker. Vick then had a mediocre 2011 and a bad 2012 season. These fans don’t feel they can trust Vick because even if he plays 15 or 16 games and has a good year…will 2011 or 2012 come back in the future?
I get where that group is coming from and think it is a reasonable mindset. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
The Vick fans still see a guy with dynamic physical ability. He has one of the strongest arms in the game. He can make breathtaking passes. Vick isn’t as fast as he was in his prime, but he remains one of the fastest QBs in the league. Vick is very elusive and is still incredibly hard to bring down. Vick is also ultra-competitive. He is tough and will do anything to win.
Watching Vick’s deep ball to DeSean in the preseason opener was a flashback to 2010. He put the ball right on the money. That pass enabled DeSean to be a weapon and deliver an “easy” TD. Vick’s arm brings out a dimension in the receivers that isn’t there with Foles. Vick’s mobility gives the offense a true X-factor that isn’t there with Foles.
I completely understand the Vick supporters and why they like him so much. Part of the equation with them is that they feel Andy Reid mis-used Vick the last couple of years and that greatly affected his performance. They think the new staff and new offense will reveal Vick to be the great player they see.
I think there is a bit too much hoping/wishing here, but do understand the Reid criticism. Andy really lost me in the 2012 opener when Vick was struggling so badly and Andy had him drop back 60 plus times. That’s just insane.
The point I have to make here is that if Vick was truly a great player, the results would be there. Tom Brady has played in 3 different offenses with the Patriots and has changed his game each time. Peyton Manning built his career with elite skill players, but in 2009 he was surrounded by mediocre talent and took his game to a new level. Peyton was handed lemons and turned them into a Super Bowl appearance.
Vick is a great physical talent, but he’s not a great QB. Never was, never will be…in the NFL. He might have a breakout season in 2013, but if you need the right coach, the right blocking and the right system in order to be good…you aren’t a truly great player. Those guys have a way of lifting everything around them. Vick, at his very best, is still a notch below that.
Most Eagles fans are going to cheer for Vick, no matter who they wanted. Vick is the QB and he’s going to get their support. The level of support and patience he gets will depend on what the fans thought pre-competition. His critics will point out every flaw. His supporters will focus on the highlights. As with most things, the truth will be somewhere in the middle.
We don’t know what to expect from Vick this year. A good preseason doesn’t mean a good season, but it does help.
Vick was a bad player over the last 2 summers. That carried over to those seasons. The young QBs who lit it up in 2012 had good to great summers. They showed what they can do.
Someone asked about the fact things are so vanilla. Do we get a true read on QBs? You have to understand that works both ways. The defenses aren’t gameplanning for the QB, but the offense isn’t gameplanning for the defense. Both groups are running a mixture of base plays and a few wrinkles. The goal is to see how the players perform. Coaches don’t want to win based on X’s and O’s. That gives you a false positive and hurts your ability to evaluate individuals, QB and otherwise.
Vick showed terrific skills this summer. He flat out won the job. Vick was calm in the pocket. His first instinct was to throw, not to run. Vick threw the ball as well as I’ve ever seen. He made good decisions. There were checkdowns and aggressive downfield throws. Vick ran twice and looked good, but those runs came within the framework of the offense.
Kelly talks about wanting a QB to be like a point guard. Get the ball to the playmakers and let them do the hard work. Vick did that this summer. Even back in 2010 it was the Michael Vick show. Now it is the Eagles offense, with Vick at the helm.
I’m curious as heck to see what Vick can do this year. Playing in Kelly’s offense will make a difference. Andy Reid wanted to throw the ball and that’s just not Vick’s strength. Kelly wants to run it. That will take pressure off Vick and should help him to function better. Vick and Reid loved the big play. Kelly will mix them in, but prefers quick plays that give the playmakers a chance to make something happen.
I have no idea what to expect of Vick this year. I think he’ll play well, but can he have a great season? Sure. Could he still prove to be more inconsistent than we prefer? Sure. One of Vick’s biggest struggles over the years has been playing consistently well. Kelly’s offense may just change that.
Can Vick stay healthy? This is another tough question. Vick has missed games throughout his career. He only played all 16 games once (2006). Vick’s competitive nature works against him at times. He doesn’t ever want to give up on a play and as we all know…there are times when you should do just that and punt. Has Kelly changed this? Is Vick still going to play with reckless abandon?
What does this mean for 2014? I think Kelly is taking the approach that he’ll deal with this season now and 2014 down the road. Let’s say Vick does have a sensational season. The Eagles will have a problem in deciding what to do with him, but that would be a good problem. If Vick is mediocre, the answer is obvious. If he’s somewhere in between, Vick’s future will be decided by circumstances. If the Eagles go 10-6 and can’t get a franchise QB, maybe they keep him. If the team is 6-10 and can get a stud QB, maybe they go that route.
The easy choice would have been to stick it out with Nick Foles. Kelly could then see if he’s the guy or not. If the Eagles had a crappy record, they’d be in line for a high pick. If Foles played well, Kelly would have a young QB to work with. Kelly wanted the QB competition. Kelly wanted someone to win the job. Kelly wants to win this year. He needs good QB play for that to happen. One way to find a good QB is to let them battle. It brought out the best in Vick and Foles. Michael Vick would not be playing like this if Kelly just handed him the job.
I understand that some of you aren’t happy with Kelly’s desire to try to win now. The NFL is different than it used to be. You don’t need to go 1-15 to change things. Pete Carroll has gone 7-9, 7-9 and 11-5 and has the Seahawks looking like a SB team. Jim Harbaugh was 13-3 and 11-4-1 with the Niners. They did go to the SB last year. Those games came over from college, like Kelly. I’m sure Chip has seen their success and studied their approach. He knows what can and can’t be done.
What does all of this mean for Foles and Matt Barkley? Some fans have brought up trading Foles. No way. Foles is under contract for 2 more years at a cheap rate. He is a QB and young player. You only deal him if some team makes a huge offer and that is highly unlikely. Could Foles be the starter in 2014? Sure. Kelly will watch him practice all year. If Vick does get hurt, Foles will have a chance to impress on the field. Kelly could fall in love with Foles and decide he is the guy for the future.
Barkley is still a mystery. He’ll play a lot in the preseason finale and that will give us an idea of where he is right now. He could be a backup or future starter. Like Foles, Barkley will need to impress in practice over the course of the year.
The Eagles future QB could be getting ready to play on Saturdays this fall. You can go buy a copy of the Eagles Almanac to find out some early thoughts on a few QB prospects.
Vick is the QB for now. We’ll cheer for him. We’ll criticize him. We’ll boo, if we need to. And that’s just the 1st quarter of the season opener. Should be an interesting year.
_
Vick wasn’t a bad player in 2011. He had a lot of good games when he was healthy and led the offense to a lot of points. His season would be remembered a lot differently without a couple of those 4th quarter defensive collapses.
I referred to 2011 as a mediocre season. His injuries hurt the team and Vick had a bunch of turnovers. QB rating was 84.9. That’s not bad, but isn’t exactly good either. Mediocre.
You’re right. I was reacting to this sentence:
A lot of people tend to lump Vick’s 2011 and 2012 seasons together, but I think what we saw was a lot different. Vick made many explosive plays in 2011, but paid much more for some costly blunders. In 2012 there were long stretches where nothing seemed to work, with lots of turnovers sprinkled in.
**summers** He’s pointing out Vick had bad off seasons, and when he did get to the pre season, he looked rusty/sloppy. In clear contrast to this off season. Hoping for a clear contrast in the results for this season.
As I read it, he’s saying poor summers carried over into poor seasons. I don’t care to dispute anything about the summers. I don’t think Vick was bad in 2011 (or even mediocre). He was pretty good. His season isn’t viewed that way because the team failed to live up to high expectations.
fair enough
Yep.
But b/c the team had so many problems Vick gets lumped into that. Truthfully I believe 2011 is when he really came into his own as a QB not just a gifted athlete playing the position.
We’ll see if 2013 can put him over the top.
You also have to acknowledge he was a bit over-lucky in 2010. Look at 2010 and 2011 together and you have a good, fairly luck-neutral QB who went 15-9, netted 7 yards per attempt, made dynamic plays and led the offense to a lot of TDs but fumbled the ball too much and wasn’t always available.
I’m not sure about Vick going “over the top,” but I think he can be productive and exciting this year.
I agree with all of that. I mentioned above you can’t use 2010 to 2011 as signs of a decline when 2010 is an outlier.
“‘m not sure about Vick going “over the top,” but I think he can be productive and exciting this year.”
When I say “over the top” I mean 10 wins and a divisional title/playoff berth. If he plays to 2011 levels in THIS offense I think we can see that. Even with the current defense.
Late to the show (stupid time zones) but I’d just point out that while the D did give up 67 points or whatever in those 4th quarters, the O scored 3. THREE!!!! We all got distracted by the D giving up leads, including some big ones, but the O didn’t help at all.
lol. This article is problematic for a lot of reasons. For one Brady has been with the same team and coach his entire career – Tom Brady’s greatness is directly related to the greatness of Belechick. Vick had Dan Reeves who he went to the NFC championship with on a team that was not in any way stacked with talent. And then Jim Mora – who was a joke.
“He might have a breakout season in 2013, but if you need the right
coach, the right blocking and the right system in order to be good…you
aren’t a truly great player.”
Name me a player who didn’t have those things who are great?
Farve didn’t become Farve ’till he got to Green Bay. Young not young ’till he got to San Fran. It took Elway 11 years and Terrell Davis to win a super bowl and Big Ben has never played with less than a top 5 defense (well one year they were ranked 9).
You know what Vick needs – an offensive line. 2011 the first half of the year started with a piss poor line and a bad defense. 2011 ended with a decent offensive line and a bad defense.
2012 there was no offensive line a bad defense and piss poor special teams.
Yet we still managed to move the ball, and have leads in the fourth just to have them squandered.
But not only that – you, like so many others just can’t just say “Yes Eagles have a QB, let’s play some football.” It always has to come with some back handed complement yeah he played well to earn the job – but he will never be great.
Give me a break.
Vick won the job and deserves all the credit in the world.
That doesn’t mean he’s suddenly immune to criticism. I’m critical of all Eagles players. I love Trent Cole to death, but I’ve been very hard on him this spring and summer.
I’m not a cheerleader. I’m writing my thoughts on players based on having studied them for years and years. I still have VHS tapes of Vick from his college days. I have notes on him from back then. I have notes on him from his time in Atlanta.
Favre was a backup in ATL and partying in Buckhead. Going to GB got him away from a party scene and onto the field.
Young played in Tampa 2 years. They went 2-14 both seasons and were the most dysfunctional organization in the league. Him struggling there was more about the Bucs awful organization than Steve Young.
I hope Vick has a terrific year and I’m writing 90% positive things about him, but I will tell the truth…whether that is good or bad. My job is to study his play and analyze it. If you don’t like my conclusions, that’s fine. Disagree all you want. But don’t assume there is any anti-Vick agenda because I’m critical. I was critical of Foles this summer. Am I against him? Am I anti-Trent Cole?
My comments are always well-thought out and reasonable. You may not like them, but there is no rush to judgement and there is no agenda. I just want the Eagles to go win the SB, whether this year or in the future. If a player can help us do that, he’s got my full support.
“That doesn’t mean he’s suddenly immune to criticism. I’m critical of all Eagles players. I love Trent Cole to death, but I’ve been very hard on him this spring and summer.”
I didn’t say he was. I said your “criticism” was problematic. And it was. But typical.
“Him struggling there was more about the Bucs awful organization than Steve Young. ”
Same can be said for Jim Mora and M. Vick.
Since I’m clearly anti-Vick and don’t know what I’m talking about…why don’t you share a less problematic criticism of Vick. What are his faults? What are the issues with Vick that should concern us this year?
“Since I’m clearly anti-Vick and don’t know what I’m talking about”
lol
I didn’t say that either.
As far as the rest:
Vick’s No. 1 issue is his decision making – that is what leads to many of his issues as far as injury and accuracy.
Second on that list is his inability to live and play another down. He CONSTANTLY wants to make something out of nothing – I think that’s a hold over from his ATL days when if he wasn’t making something out of nothing then nothing was happening.
That and playing behind questionable olines which he has done a good chunk of his career will do that to you. However it is incredibly infuriating and can (and does) lead to too many unnecessary mistakes.
Lower on this list is that he does hold on to the ball too long at times (not nearly as exaggerated as folk make it out to be) but that relates a lot to my second point.
And finally Vick is extremely physically gifted – this made him lazy in the work ethic department (not learning defenses like he should – relying on his feet ot be his hot reads). This was a BIG problem in the ATL days – but def less of one now. His work ethic (and the push from the comp) I think will pay big dividends this year.
That’s my (short) round-up of Vick’s (big) problems. Since you asked and all.
Vick’s No. 1 issue is his decision making
That’s a pretty big issue for a quarterback. If he suddenly now starts making good decisions after 10 years of making questionable ones, he will be perhaps the first quarterback in NFL history to do so.
Once again an over exaggeration of the situation.
SMH.
What do you mean? All the evidence we have suggests that Vick is not a very good decision maker. You admit this yourself. All the evidence we have about career progressions in general is that guys who don’t dramatically improve their decision making by their 10th year in the league, as a rule end up never doing so. Vick going from a mediocre decision maker to a good one at this late stage in his career is only slightly less probable than him regaining the athleticism he had when he was 26.
Ah…the old 10 year rule. Almost forgot about it…mainly because this is the 1st time I ever heard of it.
It’s an arbitrary number. But look it up. The athlete who gets better rather than dropping off precipitously as he enters his mid-thirties is a vanishingly rare exception.
Your list looks pretty consistent with what Tommy’s been saying.
The biggest contention I see between Vick’s supporter/detractors is the drop off in from 2010 to 2011 and then 2011 to 2012.
2010 to 2011: O-line actually improved. What changed was the formula defenses used against Vick. Teams blitzed mercilessly. Why? Vick is proned to injury, so you get a chance to take him out of the game, and also get a much less effective Mike Vick with pressure. It was the same thing week after week. If you want to see greatness, look to Kurt Warner in 2008. We crushed him and the Cards during the regular season. Crushed. But he learned. When we faced him again in the championship game, he gashed us on every blitz. From the great Jim Johnson! It’s like the difference between a good dynamic WR (like Desean Jackson) and a great wide reciever like Calvin Johnson. Both players have defenses game plan around them. One of them still produces all-time high numbers in spite of it. That’s the difference between good an great imo.
2011-2012 the wheels came off, Vick played his part in it but it was by no means all on him.
Vick was actually much better at sack-avoidance in 2011 (5.2%) than he was in 2010 (8.4%).
And Vick was 4/4 passing on plays where he sustained an injury in 2011. Two of those were on blitzes. One was a missed assignment by McCoy that caused Vick to get knocked into Herremans. The hit by Daryl Washington was the one where Vick got drilled by a free blitzer. He still completed a 7-yard check-down to McCoy on the play, which leads me to believe he wasn’t completely confused by the play. He’s just a smaller QB who can’t stand in the pocket and take the same shots that others do. I think Vick should generally be safer in this less vertical, option-oriented offense because he won’t be taking the deep drops where he has been exposed to a big share of the most brutal hits he’s taken since 2010.
Sheil has a breakdown of Vick’s 2011 injuries here:
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles/The-myth-behind-Vicks-injuries.html
People need to stop with the “defense figured him ot” foolishness. If that were the case our divisional rivals (who we play twice a year) would be kicking our butts every year…but they are not.
2011 was a bunch of bad personnel decisions that led to on the field havoc. And even with that the starting QB gave the team 5 fourth quarter leads that they promptly squandered.
San Fran and Atlanta being the top of that list. And even with all of that chaos we were one game shy of the playoffs.
2011 was NOT a bad Vick year.
not bad, but wasn’t the same guy as 2010. Decline is decline. Also, we stopped scoring points in the fourth quarter, consistently. Both units lost in the fourth.
For all his pass-happiness, Andy was actually a very conservative 4th quarter coach. When you have a lead in the 4th and your philosophy is based on running the clock down, it’s more imperative that the defense doesn’t allow points (especially on quick scores) than the offense keeps scoring. You shouldn’t have to keep scoring to maintain good 4th quarter leads. The predictable defense bears much more responsibility for 2011’s blown leads.
they can stay on the field. If you can’t get touchdowns, better get first downs. Didn’t do either well.
“Decline is decline.”
No. You can’t use an outlier to describe someone’s decline. 2010 Vick basically took the team on his back and willed them into the playoffs
2011 Vick is more normal Vick though higher than average on the INTS – a lot of which can be attributed to bad decisions exacerbated by a bad line AND a lockout year – INTS were up across the board for most QBs that year.
If Vick plays at 2011 levels in this offense you’re looking at min 10 wins. Even with this defense.
Ok, it was reverting to the mean. It’s still reverting, a drop in performance. I encourage anybody to watch Mike in 2010 and realize much like 2011 and 2012, he had no O-line and no D. And he made it all go with incredible escapes and clutch throws/runs.
Again, he wasn’t bad in 2011, but he wasn’t the same guy as 2010.
Again, he wasn’t bad in 2011, but he wasn’t the same guy as 2010.
Let’s not forget that he wasn’t good in the last few games of 2010 either. His decline started before 2011/the lockout.
Again with the exaggeration.
In the last 5 games in 2010 he went 3-2.
In all the losses with the exceptions of the Vikings game he had a 60% completion percentage or better and in the Vikes game it was 58.1%.
Please stop. Just stop.
He was flat out terrible in the Vikings game. The Vikings (who were a bad team in 2010) repeatedly came after him with the exact same blitz, he couldn’t adjust, and the team lost a game it could have and should have won and gakked up playoff seeding in the process. He wasn’t much better in the playoff game against the Packers. I’ll acknowledge he was great earlier in 2010, because that’s reality. But you have to acknowledge he was bad at the end of the season, because that’s also reality.
If Vick plays at 2011 levels in this offense you’re looking at min 10 wins.
I would be shocked, because 1.)Vick in 2011 was mediocre, 2.)even if he plays at his 2011 level after a downright poor 2012 he’s likely to get hurt, and 2.)this defense is going to be really bad. Better than last year’s, perhaps, but not good by any stretch. This team will need to score 30 to win most weeks.
I don’t think you remember how fast the defense blew some of those 2011 leads. The offense was not equally responsible for those.
I think we’re getting a little bit caught up with win column. when I say decline, I mean, look at the second Redskin’s game, or the 4th quarter of the second Giant’s game. We haven’t seen that guy since. Hell look at him work magic avoiding certain disaster vs the packers and Lions play after play. I double down on this, and this isn’t saying Mike Vick was awful in 2011, but he absolutely was not the same guy as 2010, Mike Vick didn’t get good results because of the O-line and D in 2011 and 2012 right? Watch the games in 2010. The D was horrible, the O-line was horrible. Mike was Magic. He made that thing go. 2011, Mike was fine, but he wasn’t 2010 Mike Vick.
Well come on. If the NFL had “figured Vick out” (and the Eagles offense in general) in late-2010/2011, it was to the extent that they weren’t going to allow repeats of those record-setting performances.
I don’t think we’re ever going to see Kaepernick repeat the likes of his 2013 playoff performance vs the Packers either. Would that mean he’s declining? That he’s “figured out”?
Vick still had some of the finest games of his career in 2011. In the first half of the season he was incredible vs ATL, SFO and DAL. These games are pooh-poohed because they were ‘meaningless,’ but he also shredded to close out the season vs NYJ, DAL and WAS.
You do realize you criticized Vick more in this post than Tommy did in his whole article? Tommy said “Good but not great”. Are you trying to prove to us that Vick is just bad? Between “poor decision-making” and “had no work ethic for over half of his NFL career” it sounds like you really hate the guy.
Don’t hate the guy. Am realistic about who he is – Tommy gave a LOT of backhanded compliments in that post. And I thought they were BS.
OK. Re-read the article and re-read your post. Tommy shows great respect towards Vick while stating plainly that he is good, not great. YOU point out all of the Vick flaws that the most critical fans always point out… but your criticism of Vick is OK because you’re a Vick fan?! How is that fair to Vick… or to Tommy?
I am excited about the offensive line this year. If VIck plays great we will all sing kumbaya over a a case of PBR, Funyons and the Lombardi trophy.
In 2011 Vick played behind an offensive line that had several guys playing at a Pro Bowl level (Peters was an All Pro). He was throwing to very good skill players and handing off to a great running back in McCoy. He was mediocre. The data set of his career is quite large at this point and he’s been mediocre for 95% of it. The exception is the six game stretch in 2010. Any rational analysis indicates that stretch is the outlier and the so-so quarterback we’ve seen the rest of the time is the real guy.
It was not a good pass-blocking line. Part of why the preseason of both ’11 and ’12, but not ’10 had bad performances from Vick was precisely because of terrible pass blocking efforts from Kelce and the dudes to the right of him.
and that followed through to the season…
No line is a good pass blocking line when the quarterback holds on to the ball for 3+ seconds every play and doesn’t know how to consistently hit the hot read. To be fair, Reid did Vick no favors with his penchant for calling too many deep passing plays, but Vick has taken numerous sacks and committed numerous turnovers over the past several seasons as a direct result of his tendency to hold the ball too long and his inability to adjust to opponent blitzes.
Pop quiz! Which QB was better at avoiding sacks: 2004 McNabb or 2011 Vick?
I’m gonna guess ’11 Vick or you wouldn’t have asked the question, but ’04 McNabb had a historically great season in terms of taking care of the football (I believe his TD/INT ratio was something ridiculous like 30/4) whereas ’11 Vick threw 14 picks and fumbled 10 times in only 13 games… so I think my point stands.
I think your assessment about what went wrong with Vick in 2011 is completely wrong and the sack% point belies it. He wasn’t a confused, indecisive QB that year. His INT% regressed from an unsustainable level in 2010, but his SK%, eCMP% and NY/A were at career-best levels. He did not make his line look bad. He failed to tuck and take care of the ball because of bad carrying technique, which was easily his worst flaw that season.
He was playing behind a very good offensive line that season. He shouldn’t have been sacked heavily. His INT% not only regressed to the mean, it went up to 3.3%, which isn’t very good. And he fumbled a lot.
I don’t care about completion percentage or YPA (either traditional or advanced) if the quarterback is turning the ball over at a rate of 1.5 per game. You can’t win with a guy who doesn’t take care of the football, and Vick has never done a good job of taking care of the football over a sustained period.
you obviously don’t care about any evidence to the contrary of your feelings.
If you’d provide evidence that Vick was actually a top echelon quarterback, I’d acknowledge it. All I see is evidence that he’s capable of making big plays, which I’ve never denied. I’m not arguing he sucks. I’m arguing he isn’t good enough. And guess what? All the evidence is on my side.
It might be counter-intuitive, but studies show that SK% is owned by more by the QB than any other stat. It’s not an OL stat. The difference between good and bad sack rates is determined by how a QB makes decisions. OL probably contributes more to Y/A than SK%.
QB skill has very little influence on INT%. In a vertical passing system, you’re looking at fluctuations in luck.
I am totally fine with Vick getting the nod. If Foles had truly elevated himself in the competition he would have the job, but Vick has been nearly flawless in the preseason. He earned it, and is unquestionably the leader of the team.
I’m of the opinion that the QB of the future is not on the team yet. It will be interesting to see where Marcus Mariota ends up in the draft, either this Spring or the next, because he was made to run this offense. Vick will keep the seat warm until Mariota joins his old coach (It could happen, right?).
If Marcus comes out, I’m sure Kelly will have serious interest.
Would being able to play with his old coach minimize Mariotta only playing two years?
I’m pretty sure that the prospect of coaching Mariota for one more year was a major factor in his initial hesitation to jump to the NFL. That, and the ridiculous new football facility at Oregon: http://www.goducks.com/PhotoAlbum.dbml?PALBID=970348&DB_OEM_ID=500
It is only complicated because we make it complicated.
From my observation, it looked like Chip said open competition, may the best man win. There looked like an open competition. Vick won.
As soon as Foles threw that pick, I figured it was the throw that sealed his fate for game 1.
It is a long season, lots can happen and whoever Kelly thinks will be the guy to win the job will be on the field. Not just the QB spot, but everywhere.
No more “Our WRs are fine” speeches. I think it is refreshing.
Here Here!
Weary of “the decision” by this point. It feels like I opened up my Christmas present too early (and got pretty much what I expected, trying to summon up as much enthusiasm as I can anyway). A lot of the pre season excitement and anticipation is gone, I’m pretty much done with the offseason, lets get on with the regular season! Gonna go watch some film and stoke my enthusiasm for the offense in general (and fast forward through the defense :-D).
Everyone looks at Vick as a short term solution, but there is a chance he could play for a while
I think Vick’s arm is his greatest asset, I think Reid convinced him of that. His decision making is his biggest weakness. Even if his speed continues to decline, I think he could still be a good QB for 4-5 years with his arm, if Kelly can get him to make better decisions.
” I think Vick’s arm is his greatest asset, I think Reid convinced him of that. His decision making is his biggest weakness”
This all day.
Which is why this part of the article:
“Andy Reid wanted to throw the ball and that’s just not Vick’s strength.”
Made me go: O_o
Vick doesn’t have accuracy issues (yes I know he’s a career 56 and some change) he has decision making issues. IF that is fixed than skies the limit.
Let it play out. 16 games from now is an eternity away.
Lol play a while? he has stayed healthy for what? 1 full season twice? Long term solution? lol
I think he could still be a good QB for 4-5 years with his arm, if Kelly can get him to make better decisions.
He’s not a good QB now, so even putting aside his brittleness it’s vanishingly unlikely he’ll be a good one 4-5 years from now.
This sentence could have been and was written about Vick under every coach he’s played for. Dan Reeves and Andy Reid are two pretty fine football coaches. Neither was able to cure Vick’s poor decision making and both lost their jobs as a result. Kelly may or may not prove to be a good NFL coach (I think he will be, FWIW), but even if he does, why do you think he’ll succeed where Reeves and Reid failed?
At a certain point you just have to accept that a guy is what he is and is never going to fulfill his physical potential and it mystifies me that Vick’s most vociferous backers don’t seem to get this.
uh huh, pro bowls and championship games, but just not a good QB.
The Pro Bowl is meaningless. It’s a popularity contest. Jeff Saturday went last year after being BENCHED by the Packers – he wasn’t even the best C on his own team, much less in the NFC.
As for playoff performance, Vick has won precisely two career playoff games. He made one NFC championship game, in a season in which the NFC was historically weak, and his team promptly got steamrolled by the Eagles, not exactly a team known for coming up big in championship games. Most of his career he’s failed to even sniff the playoffs. He has a career 80.6 passer rating, 56.3% completion percentage, and 123-82 TD/INT rating despite playing in an era which is notoriously friendly to passing. And he compiled most of these statistics several years ago, when he was physically more gifted than he is now.
So yes, not a good quarterback. Not a Kyle Boller-terrible one, but not a good one either.
God you say everything I want to, just so much better
I think I just have to say, uh, huh.
/me looks at Tony Romo, Matt Ryan, etc…
Oh, QB rating. Lovely. Vick is the highest-rated QB in Eagles history.
That’s nice… but meaningless.
His QB rating is mediocre stacked up against those of his peers. You can’t compare him to guys like Jaworski who played in a different era.
That’s why the statment is conditional. IF vick can make better decisions he Could be more then a 1-2 year solution. I was merely trying to point out the flaw in thinking Foles= long-term thinking and Vick = Short term thinking. I agree that it is unlikely that Vick will suddenly become a better player then he has, Starship 7 Coach Killer. But I also think it’s possible that Vick is in the NFL longer then Foles.
But I also think it’s possible that Vick is in the NFL longer then Foles.
Absolutely. I am not sold on Foles by any means. But we have less information about him than we do about Vick. The long term strategy for this team has to be to secure a franchise quarterback. Step one is to gather enough data to definitively conclude Foles is not that guy. We won’t be able to do that with him on the bench. Keeping Vick on the roster was short term thinking by a team that isn’t in a position to benefit from short-term thinking. It’s the one move of Kelly’s tenure I disagree with to this point.
If he’s preaching competition, how can he go into the offseason with only Nick Foles at QB? Matt Barkley was a 2nd round pick at that point. We had to add somebody, and Vick was easily the best option.
Competition is fine. I would’ve gone with a young veteran along with a draft pick. A brittle 33 y/o on the decline is not a good option for a rebuilding team.
If he can’t beat out Vick and clearly isn’t as good as Vick by everyone’s estimation, and Vick is simply a “not very good” QB, as youve stared multiple times, then how much more do you need to see of Foles?
He’s a second year player with six career starts. I want to see if he can improve given more time to start. If he can, great. If not, get rid of him too. Vick is a 10 year veteran who still makes elementary mistakes. I’m pretty sure he’s not going to get better.
“why do you think he’ll succeed where Reeves and Reid failed?”
system fit mostly. its happened before too. rich gannon did jack shit until Gruden got his hands on him and realized he was perfect for the west coast offense he wanted to run in oakland.
Gannon is about the only precedent I can think of, and as a cerebral player who didn’t rely on physical tools he’s not a particularly good one for Vick. Has there ever been a quarterback with a history of bad decision making who suddenly turned that around in his thirties? I can’t think of one.
well said
It’s exactly like the end of McNabb’s career. After 2008 I KNEW, KNEW McNabb was done and wanted him gone. It’s just that people build certain bonds with QBs, bonds that don’t get formed with other players. They will make EVERY excuse why the QB played bad, they will blame coahces, players, etc..
The thing is Vick was NEVER a good passer in ATL… He had his great stretch in 2010,got figured out and went back to old Vick.. He can’t even stay healthy for 16 games. ANd people want to cling on hope and memories of the 2010 7 game amazing stretch.
Put a fork in him, we needed to find out if Foles can be our QB of the future and we blew it. Shame on Kelly.
If Vick gets hurt then Foles will get his shot. You really can’t say that it was an open competition and give it to the guy who lost.
Even Jimmy Kempski could tell Vick played better. Let the guys decide it on the field, not some potential or future argument.
He did but the body of work was very small
Philly fans can be over-passionatite to the point where it clouds their judgement. Serious. 15 throws later and Vick is already back on the pedestal and the hundreds of dreadful plays we saw from him over the past 2 years vanished.
So, next you will tell me that my suggestion to bring back Randall is misguided?
1. If Kelly thinks he can win ‘now’ (meaning say 10-6 this year) with this bunch, he’s delusional.
2. The only decision I hated this offseason was to bring back Vick. Served no purpose because Vick is a known commodity (turnover machine who makes bad decisions in the red zone and is increasingly brittle) that isn’t even a fixture beyond this year.
3. Nothing worse than an organization that isn’t willing to endure some short-term lumps and settles for a conservative move that ensures at best continued mediocrity. It’s a recipe for failure.
4. It really frustrated me how the Eagles refused to use the ‘r’ word this offseason (rebuilding) even though they clearly are this year. Yeah a significant minority of the fan base here complains every freaking week regardless but I bet the fans would have been willing to endure a crappy year if the organization had laid out that expectation with the promise of building a legit SB contender in 3 years.
well said
Sorry Bob, but the Eagles aren’t going to lose on purpose, no matter how bad you want them to “rebuild.”
For me, operating an interstate gambling ring and killing animals was simply legal confirmation that Vick was a bad guy. His approach to the game in Atlanta and his off field behavior (or middle finger throwing on the field behavior) was the embodiment of the millionaire jerk athlete.
I didn’t like the his signing out of Levenworth, but I respect Lurie and Reid for giving him a chance.
He had a great streak of what, 6 games, a few years back? His Eagles reputation lies solely on that and gunning the ball 60 yards in practice.
He’s not a guy I can ever cheer for, so I remind myself that we’re just rooting for the laundry not the people inside it.
Except Evan Mathis. Always cheer for Evan Mathis.
Vick won the job and outplayed Foles. I just can’t take much anyway from 2 meaningless preseason games.
You got two dislikes! Haha. JK. I agree 100 % with you. Chip said that he’s seen Vick in all situations that he’s satisfied. Well, I don’t agree. Vick hasn’t seen a “real” defense, yet — and he won’t see one vs. the Jags. The Jags stink. Vick hasn’t seen the real game pressure. He hasn’t had to do a critical drive to put the game away or to take the lead vs. a defense using all their tricks. There’s no way for Chip to evaluate those scenarios I guess.
All true! However, Foles has played under the same circumstances, hasn’t seen a real defense, hasn’t faced real game pressure and has been demonstrably worse at playing QB than Vick. Not a single person has argued that Foles won the competition or out played Vick. Im not trying to say Vick is a godsend by any means. but, if Foles can’t even outplay the guy under such easy circumstances that you outlined above, why would you expect his play to leap over Vicks and his turnovers to go down the moment the pressure gets turned up?
I still want to know if it was entirely Kelly’s decision to bring back Vick or if Roseman played a key role in him returning & had the final say. Never that clear to me who was the final decision-maker.
As for Vick, I could care less about the dog thing or any past transgressions. He just isn’t a good QB who has too many warts and will lose a few steps once he takes a few weeks of wear & tear.
I honestly think this was all Chipper and Howie had nothing to do with it.
“I understand that some of you aren’t happy with Kelly’s desire to try to win now. The NFL is different than it used to be. You don’t need to go 1-15 to change things. Pete Carroll has gone 7-9, 7-9 and 11-5 and has the Seahawks looking like a SB team. Jim Harbaugh was 13-3 and 11-4-1 with the Niners. They did go to the SB last year. Those games came over from college, like Kelly. I’m sure Chip has seen their success and studied their approach. He knows what can and can’t be done.”
Tommy, I normally agree with the things you say, and I agree with most of your thoughts, but I think that you are being a little short sighted here. The Seahawks were bad before Carroll got there, the talent level had been stockpiling. Harbaugh came into some of the best young talent in the league in SF. The Eagles have been bad for one year, and the years before that we drafted terribly. Chip doesn’t have playoff talent on this roster.
The harsh truth is that eventually everyone has to be bad. Some teams come back faster then others, but every team goes through ups and downs. It is the teams that try to rush the process back up that struggle the most. Lets hope Vick doesn’t become a nearsighted mistake.
The Eagles already were/are bad. They don’t have to be bad for a long time.
We were bad for one year, 8-8 in 11 isn’t bad. Playoffs in 2010 surely isn’t bad.
The talent level on this roster as a whole is very low. Reid did an awful job with most of his drafts in the last few years in Philly, and it is showing with the players we have on the field. We took a step in the right direction this past offseason, but we don’t have an impact pass rusher, we have a makeshift secondary, and a receiving crew that is getting weaker.
This team isn’t set up for a Super Bowl run this year. I hope it happens, but this team is missing way to many pieces to be a true contender.
this why i believe the season will be waste if we win more than 4 games. i know im in the minority in this but i want the qb of future in place then build from there
oh, eff you. I want to see wins, and I want to be happy for those wins.
Spread that vinegar elsewhere, false fan.
you arent the first person to say that to me and you wont be last lol i just hope you arent a 76ers fan
NBA is a different beast, a real pyramid league. When faced with that reality, it’s OK to openly root for long-term tanking.
To an extent. But franchise quarterbacks are very much like NBA superstars – if you don’t have one, you’re screwed (your realistic ceiling is as a playoff also-ran) and it’s very hard to get one without bottoming out. I’m 95% confident the Eagles don’t have one right now, so bottoming out (particularly in a year in which the draft is loaded at that position) is not necessarily a bad idea.
Franchise QBs don’t need to be taken the with “super-lottery” picks. Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Roethlisberger, Flacco, Romo, Rivers, Wilson, Schaub, Cutler, Kaepernick were not.
I think it remains to be seen whether Kaepernick and Wilson are franchise QBs – they’re off to good starts, but they’ve only played one season apiece so I will to some extent reserve judgment. Romo and Rivers (who was taken #4 overall) are not franchise-caliber QBs. Flacco may not be either – he was pretty mediocre last year until getting preternaturally hot in the playoffs, some of which was due to Anquan Boldin catching anything thrown within five yards of him regardless of how well he was covered. The rest of the NFL’s top quarterbacks (the Mannings, Matt Ryan, Cam Newton, RGIII, Andrew Luck, etc.) were all top picks.
It may not be impossible to find a franchise QB later in the draft or as an UDFA (just as it’s not impossible to find an NBA superstar later – Steve Nash, Tony Parker, and Marc Gasol were not top picks), but it’s damned hard.
I think you’re using too much of a backwards-looking “he’s a winner” criteria here. It’s fun to dump on Romo, but he is no doubt a franchise QB. The guy’s only averaged about 4200 yards and 30 TDs per 16 games over an EIGHT YEAR PERIOD. His rate stats are also some of the best ever. How is he anything but a franchise QB? If you’re going to restrict him, then you’re going to have to restrict extremely high picks like Cam Newton and Matt Ryan from the franchise discussion. I was simply listing the QBs I could think of who have been entrenched, undisputed starters for a long time, or young QBs that franchises have handed their futures over to.
By the pickiest of standards. Rodgers, Peyton, Brady and Brees are the only elite franchise QBs. Peyton’s the only one taken with a “tank” pick, and even he now belongs in a second category as a free agent QB.
If you go down a tier to admit #1 overall pick Eli, you also have to admit #11 overall Roethlisberger.
If you want to include younger QBs like RGIII and Luck, then Kaepernick and Wilson are on board too.
You can’t slice it so to that the top QBs only come from the very top picks, because that’s not how the NFL has been working. For every franchise QB who is produced that way, there’s at least one who isn’t. The ratio in the NBA is not nearly the same.
Don’t forget Parker’s Spurs are anchored by #1 overall pick Tim Duncan. And Steve Nash? That’s your counter guy? Please. I guess he sniffed top-5 status for about half a second in 2007 when some other guys were hurt, but you’re talking about a really weak “superstar.” The standards for NBA superstardom are way higher than NFL franchise QBdom, in my opinion. The NBA is the ultimate anti-parody, star-driven league.
All fair points (well, except for Romo being a top notch quarterback – we can quibble over the definition of “franchise QB”, but in my mind it’s indisputable that he’s not an elite player. Part of the reason his team doesn’t win is that he has a documented track record of making bone-headed mistakes in big situations, which at this point is extensive enough to be statistically significant).
My argument is not that finding a franchise QB is impossible without a top pick. Is that it is much harder. And it is. There’s just no disputing that.
If it means drafting a Luck or Griffin and setting yourself up as a perennial contender in subsequent years, I’d prefer going 1-15 like the Colts did two years ago to going 7-9 with a mediocre veteran quarterback any day. I’m not going to go as far as Aleandro and actively root against my own team but his position is not a ridiculous one.
not a ridiculous thought
I think it takes 3 good drafts to repair a damaged franchise. I think 2012 was a good draft, but the team was set up to fail that year because of other past mistakes. I think Lane Johnson is a stud, but it’s too early to say much about 2013. It’s on the personnel department to spend the year preparing for a good draft in 2014. Chip Kelly’s focus should be on building his program and winning as many games as possible with his roster.
agree with everything you said except we were horrible in 11… we were 4-8 and those last 4 games we beat some really really bad teams
Pete turned over that roster in a major way.
2010 – http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sea/2010_roster.htm
2013 – http://www.ourlads.com/nfldepthcharts/depthchart/SEA
I don’t think you’ll see a lot of guys today who are from when Pete took over. SEA is one of the youngest teams in the league.
I’m glad Chip named a starting QB. I had hoped Foles would be the winner as I wanted to go with the younger guy and I am in the “No Trust in Vick” Camp, but Vick clearly won the competition. He outplayed Foles and in my opinion, it wasn’t as close as some are saying.
I’ll also point out that the fact that Vick is such a polarizing figure is one reason I had hoped he would have to move on. You either love the guy or hate him it seems. Any attempt to have a rationale conversation concerning him always devolves into name calling and just plain insanity. Although that doesn’t really affect the team obviously, just us armchair quarterbacks.
I also really hate the fact that Jamie Dukes and Warren Sapp will now be right in their prediction that Vick would win the job.
Regardless, the Eagles have a QB now. Lets hope they can get the awful taste of the 2012 season out of our mouths and win some damn games.
Maybe it’s the blue moon that’s got people so crazy.
Are there a bunch of people who haven’t watched Vick play the last 2+ years from the game in Chicago in ’10 through the present?
Is there some parallel universe where Vick has suddenly made smart decisions, didn’t get hurt, and didn’t turn the ball over way too much?
I wonder how old some of these cats are too. They seem to believe that he was a good QB throughout his career. Does anyone remember how bad of a passer he was in ATL? I don’t think a lot o f these guys were watching football then.
I agrees with your point that Vick has never been a great QB, I think it should be acknowledged that Vick has always been a good QB. Since his time in the league there have been plenty of QBs with great physical tools that have come and gone. JaMarcus Russel or Vince Young are good examples. These players had great physical tools, but weren’t very good QBs. The problem with Vick is that too many people fell in love with his physical gifts and set the bar way too high. His flashes of greatness were things that had never been done before or may ever be done again, but they weren’t sustainable. Look at Vick in 2010. Many fans will point how he can’t duplicate that performance. Who can? Vick took a team that most thought would be lucky to go 6-10 and turned the into the most talked about team in the NFL. In 2011 he came back to Earth. His inconsistencies began to show, but being inconsistent does mean he was not a good QB. Flacco is inconsistent as is Eli. However, fans and media accept this. The problem with Vick is that he has had so many electrifying moments that when he performs as a mere mortal, it’s looked upon negatively, not by all but by a significant amount of people. My point Vick has had his team, including the Eagles in playoff contention more often than not, this includes 2011. I think that makes him a good QB. Hopefully this system can bring out the best in him, and we can see him play like a good QB more consistently.
“Hopefully this system can bring out the best in him, and we can see him play like a good QB more consistently.”
100x THIS.
Forgive me, but I’ve seen this movie before, and I know exactly how it ends.
Clearly you haven’t.
Cause that Vick in the pre-season games looks NOTHING like the Vick of any year be it 2004 or 2010.
The preseason??? Are you kidding me?!?!?
The preseason means squat. Zilch. Nada. Nothing. The list of guys who have looked like superstars in the preseason and gone on to do precisely nothing in their NFL careers is a very, very long one. Vick has a long and middling track record as a regular season NFL starter. I’ll bank on that over 15 passes against a couple of defenses with less-than-stellar talent playing vanilla schemes, thanks.
lol.
Okay the pre-season means squat. I know…
You’ve seen 15 throws dude. How many times if he going to dupe this city/
JaMarcus Russell and Vince Young were terrible QBs. Vick is a mediocre one. It’s almost as hard to win a Super Bowl with a mediocre QB as it is with a terrible one.
As for Vick’s performance with the Eagles:
2010 – Made the playoffs at 10-6, with Vick posting a record of 8-3 in the games he started. He definitely gets credit for this season.
2011 – Team won four meaningless games at the end of the season to finish 8-8 after a 4-8 start and was never in contention for the postseason.
2012 – Team went 4-12 and was never in contention for the postseason.
By my count that’s one season as a (mediocre) playoff contender, two seasons as a bad or outright terrible team. How has Vick had this team “in playoff contention more often than not”?
Vince Young isn’t a bad Qb – he’s a head case. He was Eli-esque in his ability to look like ish and still win games.
Young’s biggest problem was his attitude/emotional state.
You’re right that when he had his head screwed on straight he wasn’t a bad QB – but that wasn’t for a very long period, and not having their heads screwed on straight is one of the most common reasons physically talented quarterback prospects fail to sustain good NFL careers. Young had a few more notable NFL moments than Russell or Ryan Leaf but he ultimately washed out for the same reason they did.
In 2010 the team may have been mediocre, but Vick sure wasn’t. He finished second for league MVP, was the comeback player of the year, and made a pro bowl. If that’s mediocre then I’d hate to know what you think a QB has to do to be considered good. In 2011 he finished second in the division by a game, but he averaged over 25 points per. That’s good for any offense. You seem to be under the impression that Vick plays defense as well. Also, we had a shot of making the playoffs all the way up to week 16. That’s called being in contention. Just because you deem those wins were meaningless doesn’t mean they were. Maybe you feel Vick should have averaged 30+ points a game.
5-1 in the division that year as well. But I guess that was “meaningless” too.
Vick played well (really well) for six games in 2010. SIX GAMES. That is the definition of “small sample size”.
(Sigh) I don’t know if you don’t actually remember 2011 or are just choosing to ignore the truth. What about when Vick played Atlanta? How about when he destroyed Dallas. He was decent in Buffalo, but Avant, who I’m sure you have nothing but praises for dropped 2 passes that ended up INTs. Then after some time off, after getting his butt kicked all season, He had 4 good games to finish the season. Say what you want, but those were still NFL teams he played against, and 2 or 3 still had playoff aspirations. But you keep thinking that the QB is the only player responsible for a team losing. I would love to hear how terrible you think Drew Brees was last year since he didn’t make the playoffs.
You haven’t paid close attention to my arguments. I’m not saying Vick is consistently awful or hasn’t had his moments. He’s been good at times, even great. I’m not disputing that. But he’s highly erratic. He’s also been awful at times, and he generally doesn’t play well against good defenses. Those are also indisputable facts. You can blame Avant for those interceptions and I can point out that Vick benefitted from about a dozen dropped interceptions during his 2010 run and we can go around in circles all day, but the fact is the dude has never played like a top 10 quarterback for a sustained period of time.
a little off topic. But the Broncos need a pass rusher and run a 4-3. Any for a high draft pick chance we can flip Trent or Brandon for a high draft pick since neither of them quite fits the present defensive scheme.
T-Law – don’t give into that stuff. Besides, I can tell by your article above you’re anti-Arod.
Here’s hoping this ends up being a great decision.
Unfortunately like Kelly says he doesnt know what AR asked him to do in the previous offense. guys like Brady and Manning have earned the respect of their coaches and can help them mold the offense to what they think will work. MM and AR never have and would have never been receptive to anyone giving them constructive feedback. Hence why they threw the ball all the time and never really had a established running game.
Chip and his crew know what they want to do and with Chips inexperience comes a time when Vick can help mold this offense into something that can keep them in the game till ….or if the Defense ever comes around. Great QB’s have great coaches that arent know it alls and that were ready to run a football team into the dirt before they adapted to the ever changing league. It may take Andy going to Kansas to adapt or start retirement. Best thing that could happen was end the Reid Era. I have all the faith in Kelly and support Vick 100% despite his rough 2 years which were overall the worst 2 eagles seasons in the Reid tenure.
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