Let’s Talk Offense
Posted: September 30th, 2013 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 173 Comments »Last week the Eagles scored 16 points. This week the starters put up 13 points. The offense is clearly struggling.
Or is it? Jimmy Bama wrote an outstanding piece showing that the offense is doing some great things. Historic things, actually. But there is a problem.
• And yet, despite all of the extremely impressive numbers above, the Eagles are a “good not great” 11th in points per game, with 24.8.
• They’re eating up yards like Pacman eats up delicious white pellets, but they’re not scoring enough. In fact, the Eagles are 24th in “yards per point,” with 18.5. On that metric, the lower the number, the better. There are 8 teams who have a higher “yards per point” total than the Eagles. They are the Cardinals, Raiders, Steelers, Browns, Giants, Jets, Buccaneers, and Jaguars. The combined records of those 8 teams: 7-25.
Red Zone struggles.
Drives ended by turnovers.
As Chip Kelly said, “We’re stopping ourselves.”
In the KC game alone, there were 4 drives that ended in KC territory, but gave the Eagles no points. There were 2 punts, a turnover and a missed FG. You shouldn’t cross midfield 4 times in a game and come away empty.
That only happened twice in the Chargers game. We scored 16 points against KC and 30 against the Chargers. The empty drives isn’t the only difference, but you can see that it had an impact.
Part of the problem is the new system. Part is on skill players not making plays (drops for instance). Part is on inconsistent OL play.
And part is on Mike Vick. He has only one TD pass in the RZ this year (to Riley Cooper vs the Chargers). Vick has more TDs from the 20-30 range. The only QBs with a worse Red Zone passer rating than Vick…Carson Palmer (ARZ) and Chad Henne (JAX).
There have already been grumblings to bench Vick. I’m not on board with that. I think he deserves at least a couple of more weeks before we get into that discussion. The Eagles are playing bad teams in the Giants and Bucs. The start of this season has been tough. There were 3 games in 11 days and then a trip to play the best team in the league in a tough setting.
Let’s see what Vick can do in the next 2 weeks. If the offense isn’t getting back into the 20’s, Kelly might lose his patience and make a move. At the least, he’d start to consider it. Chip can deal with losing, but not scoring points has to be torturous to him.
I think one thing that may have hurt Vick was the lack of pass rush in the Chargers game. He was able to sit in the pocket and survey the field. Vick then picked apart the Chargers defense. The last 2 weeks Vick hasn’t had time to do that. It seems like he hasn’t adjusted his internal clock.
It also hurts that both KC and Denver played lots of man coverage. That took away the quick screens to the WRs. Kelly didn’t just give up on those plays. You can’t run them when the other team is playing press-man.
Some of you are upset at the lack of adjustments. There is some validity to this, but all too often this is a catch-all phrase that fans and the media throw around when a team isn’t having success. Kelly might have called some different wrinkles. If they aren’t working, you won’t always be able to tell there were adjustments.
I know the focus of some of this is on the use of TEs. The Eagles did use 2 TEs more yesterday than in some other games. James Casey played early (not sure if 2 or 3 TE set) and he caught a pass. The problem is that you only want to go heavy with TEs if that creates a favorable matchup. Kelly didn’t see that as the case yesterday. Maybe he will next week.
Kelly is a smart offensive coach. He’s going to use formations that give the Eagles a favorable matchup. He’ll be wrong from time to time, but not on a consistent basis. Kelly always has specific reasons for the things he does. Unfortunately, he can’t always tell us why.
Kelly has focused more on the O-line than other areas in terms of criticism. I’m still working on the tape, but there is no question that the OL has under-performed in the last 2 weeks. Even a mobile QB like Vick is going to struggle when he doesn’t have good protection. The Eagles must win up front. The last 2 weeks have been disappointing.
Vick and Kelly must do something to get the ball out quicker. That takes pressure off the OL and it frustrates the defense. It also gets the ball to playmakers in space. Either Kelly needs to adjust the calls he’s making or Vick needs to adjust the reads he’s making. The ball must get out quicker more consistently.
I know many of you think the problem is a lack of weapons at WR opposite of DeSean. Losing Maclin hurt the offense for sure, but the Eagles still should have a more consistent passing attack than they do. Someone asked about Jeff Maehl getting more snaps after his catches yesterday. I’d be willing to give him a few more plays, but don’t overrate what he did at the end of a blowout.
Kelly feels like the offense is close. He sees the Eagles problems as mostly self-inflicted. If they can just clean things up, the points will come. I understand where he’s coming from, but I’m not sure I totally agree. This isn’t college where you have young guys making mistakes. You have seasoned veterans like Vick, Celek and Herremans making mistakes. Can you fix those guys? Maybe. Maybe not. Kelly will sure try.
I do agree with Kelly that the offense is better off than some critics think. This offense does seem really close at times. I’ve suffered through years when the team struggled to move the ball, let alone score. 1st down were worthy of celebration. Kelly’s task is to turn those yards and that potential into points and not “What if’s”. Doesn’t matter if he does this by schematic adjustments, lineup changes or voodoo. You need points to win in the NFL.
_
What Tommy says:
“There have already been grumblings to bench Vick. I’m not on board with that. I think he deserves at least a couple of more weeks before we get into that discussion. The Eagles are playing bad teams in the Giants and Bucs. The start of this season has been tough. There were 3 games in 11 days and then a trip to play the best team in the league in a tough setting.”
What I hear in my head:
“We need to allow Vick to flash his ability and dominate and inferior opponent so we can make excuses for him for another 4 or 5 games where we score few points and lose.”
I split season tix with my buddy…this year he wanted the first 4 games, I wanted the last 4 hoping FOles would be playing by then…so far, we are on schedule lol
youre a faggot of a fan
I can’t believe how those words rang so true. Wait until Mora Jr takes over. Wait until Reid gets him. Wait until Chippa gets him. This offense was designed exactly for Vick’s talents. Vick was named the starter and Chip said they would sit down and hand pick the plays Mike wants.
What we see is a hand picked offense for Vick. It looks eerily similar to what a Vick offense has looked like over his whole career.
We saw Kelly’s offense in week one. We saw more of Vick with the long ball deeper routes in SD. Multiple WR were open throughout that game. He stared down and waited for the WR to get open on at least 10 passes in the first half. In KC you saw him completely abandon the RB dump and continued to stare down his first read.
Yes, lets wait until he plays crappier defenses to try and prove he is progressing.
It wasn’t just Kelly, many of us thought, yet again, that there was a chance that this offense, this was the one that was going to allow Vick to become the great QB we dream of when we think of 2010 and countless Madden games. I wanted to cut Vick after last season but I got reeled in when Chip saw something in him. Although Foles probably wouldn’t have done much better, with him we have an unknown and so any achievement is an overachievement. Vick is like the Andy’s late Eagles teams, Super Bowl or bust. Super QB or bust. Vick will always be good, never great. He’ll probably be starting in Jacksonville/Oakland/Arizona/NYJ next season.
Re: Speaking of Bad Things . . .
T-Law:
The luxury of time Vick had against the Chargers created no less of a potentially troublesome measuring stick than the Eagles’ first-half offense against the Redskins.
I wrote not long after the Chargers game that no team is ever as good as their best game (or half of a game) or as bad as their worst.
Over the next 5 games, I’d expect the Eagles to improve on both sides of the ball — that is, post better numbers and points scored/given-up.
I’ll be more curious, though, about how the team plays in all three phases after that 5-game stretch against the Packers, Lions, and Bears. Those are the only “good” teams left on the schedule. (And who knows by then.)
The appearance of improvement is important, to be sure. But I don’t know how much we learn against teams as disorganized as the Giants and Raiders appear to be. Or as erratic as the Cowboys and now-QB deficient Bucs are.
One thing is clear, however. If the Eagles struggle during the next 5 games, then some hard philosophical questions about this team will have to be asked — and will be asked — by the man they call . . . T-Law.
We will definitely learn a lot about the team if they lose to the Giants and Raiders. I see a struggle there either way…
My observations Tommy once i calmed down and seeing what people said to me insultingly on twitter as i really got torn apart yesterday:
1. Shady is best back in the league
2. vick is not playing bad
HOWEVER:
1. Foles gets ball out quicker
2. QB should NOT have to run 50 yds a game
IF QB is forced to run that much NOT by design:
1. Offense is not working
2. QB is not seeing open receivers
3. QB is one maybe two reads and run
vick is not THE problem but is part of it
foles can run this offense without running 50 yds per game…so can vick
if just seems to me that foles, even in pre-season made this look more like a chip kelly offense where vick just looks like he’s running an andy/marty offense still…dancing around staring staring then rocket throw
One garbage time drive does not a starting QB make. Though helpful that Jeff caught his pass instead letting it hit him and bounce off the numbers.
im not saying foles is the answer…im merely saying foles looks smoother
I doubt very much that Foles or Barkley is the answer. But Vick *definitely* isn’t.
oh, OK. So let’s compare Vick to Foles in preseason against 2nd/3rd stringers and Foles in garbage time.
foles played against starters also in pre-season…why does everyone say he didnt?
Because it is convenient for Vick apologists. Vick is what he is. His “body of work” as he likes to tout-speaks for itself. He is a dead end road and we all know the outcome. There is ZERO chance Vick is here next year, so what is the point? We suck, and we might as well figure out a few things QB wise before we go into the draft.
lol “apologist”. What am I apologizing for? 14/27, 250 yds, 0 turnovers and 41 yds rushing?
I think what’s being alluded to is Vick’s pedestrian career W-L record of 57-47 in 10 seasons as a starter.
He must have been crushing it before he became an Eagle.
Huge hypothetical question: If the defense is historically bad, like franchise historically bad, not 2012 Saints historically bad, and Rex Ryan gets the axe in New York…do CK and Rosemann make an attempt at getting Ryan to DC for a few years before heading back to a HC gig? I think we’d all love that, but from CK’s comments when Davis was hired, he doesn’t seem like he’d give up on him after one year. Then again, the Saints did the same thing to Spags in NO, and if we enter into Saints territory with this defense, then I can’t see them being okay with Davis coming back.
We’d need to see how everything played out. If Chip thinks bad coaching is a primary problem with the defense, he might be open to making a change.
If Chip feels the issues are mainly lack of talent / poor execution…don’t expect any changes.
You and I can have opinions. The key is what Kelly thinks and what he wants long term.
“If Chip thinks bad coaching is a problem”- how abt Brandon Boykin playing LB and Safety and some other positions…how abt asking Brandon Graham covering a slot receiver and then leaving the slot receiver free and blitzing….how about defenders not being able to tackle….how about not giving Vinny Curry enough snaps ….c’mon Tommy – Billy Davis was a bad hire (understatement)….he was let go from the other teams for a reason….
say what you want about the offense, but the second half numbers from that last game are atrocious.
excluding nick foles’ drive in garbage time.
3rd quarter :
by my count of the play-by-play book from nfl.com, vick was 0/3 passing, with one sack for -4 yards, a scramble for 2 yards and another sack for -3 yards.
with 3 called runs for 25 yards.
4th quarter:
vick 4/8 passing for 78 yards (completions of 27 & 38 yards really help) not including losing 6 yards on a sack.
with 3 called runs for 7 yards.
thats it. second half: vick goes 4/11 passing for 78 yards and 3 sacks for -13 yards for a net of 65 yards. gross.
i’m in the ‘give vick more time’ boat along with you tommy, but even i have to admit that second half offense was pretty pathetic.
Hard when you’re getting sacked once a series. But they definitely clamped down in the second half. Not sure if you saw a lot of open receivers. But that screen game wasn’t there — they played press man all game.
Vick was sacked three times IN THE GAME. Not the reason. The offensive line gave him plenty of time, he sat back there for 5-6 seconds at times.
3 sacks — 2 in the 3rd quarter, 6 QB hits, and 5 tackles for a loss. They were in our backfield all game.
guess i should have made my note a little clearer. i’m not at all putting the blame completely on Vick’s shoulders here. this was a meltdown of the entire offense. i think everyone is to blame – receivers weren’t getting open, OL couldn’t block well enough, vick couldn’t hit receivers or didn’t see open receivers, receivers dropped passes, etc.
edit: also have to give credit for Denver’s D for playing good football too.
really, what i was trying to get at (its a long day) is:
when we know our Defense isn’t going to win many battles (against peyton manning this year, not many Defenses really will), we have to rely on our offense which has much more talent than the defense to keep us in games.
when the offense puts up a total of 65 yards in a HALF, we have a problem with the offense.
Vick is not the only problem, but he damn sure is a big part of it. The guy has not gotten his “swag back”. Nor has he been reborn in the offense “that was made for him”. On the other hand, he hasn’t fumbled alot, so perhaps “Chip Kelly-Offensive Genius” has done the impossible and taught him how to “hold the ball”.
But I digress….
My thinking is that Foles may be way worse than Vick, Barkley may be horrible. But if we are going to lose so horribly and look like a Div 1 AA team, we might as well see what these kids have. I do not want to waste another season watching Vick stare down receivers, throw late and across his body, and generally look like he has no idea WTF he is looking at.
The next time Mike Vick anticipates a coverage, blitz or throws to a WR before he makes his break and “throws him open”, it will be the first time.
Like I said, Vick is not the only problem. But he damn sure ain’t our QB solution, and maybe that guy is on the bench.
at what point do we start thinking of next season and beyond in regards to the QB situation?
is vick the QB of the future for this team? (i think most of us agree he is not)
if the team decides he is NOT the future of the team, when do we put in Foles/Barkley to show off some of their potential? let us determine if they have a shot at being the QBOTF or to tell us we need to get a young QB early in next years draft.
lol. Our Defense and ST allowed 52 points, and we’re still talking about Vick and why Foles should be starting. Just…wow.
Double-like. Not one Alex Henery comment either.
when the only QBs worse than you in the RZ are Henne and Palmer, we get to talk about Vick.
A new QB isn’t going to make Celek’s hands made less of stone, Henery pull his kicks less, or add 6 inches to any one of our WRs.
The defense was bad the first 3 weeks. It will likely struggle all year. They need help and time.
The offense is the group that underachieved the last 2 weeks. That’s why I skipped the obvious subject of the defense and wrote about the offense.
What’s with all the Negative Nellies coming out of nowhere all of a sudden? Did they just find Tommy’s site when they wanted to complain?
Kidding me? 90% of the commentary on here is negative and cynical. “coming out of nowhere” my arse..
I think 1-3 will do that.
He did only lead the team to 13 points. Unless you find that to be an acceptable number…
part of it is that we see our defense as having minimal talent and a new scheme. we don’t expect our defense to win us games. certainly not against this year’s denver team.
likewise, we see our offense as having plenty of talent at many places – it is the strength of our team, what with talented players and an offensively minded coach. we expect the offense to move the ball and put up points.
this game was expected to be a shootout, judging by the final score, our defense played to their expectations (albeit poorly) and our offense did not play up to expectations.
to be fair, the name of the post is “lets talk offense”. talking about defense and ST would be going off topic!
: P
I was referring to some of the commentary. I agree with the premise of the article. I thought the offense would score more too. But I don’t think the QB is our biggest concern at the moment as far as that side of the ball goes.
OK, Along those lines of discussion: Out of the offense, what are the top three problems? For me, its 1) Inconsistent QB play 2) TE dropsies 3) No WR outside of Djac.
I know some will say OLine, but they have not been that bad. Not great, but certainly not bad. Most of the sacks that they give up are due to the QB having zero pocket presence and generally playing the position like he has the IQ of a dog.
When the offense can’t put any pressure on the opposing defense, your own defense will never be able to play with a lead and pin their ears back. What’s that saying. A good offense is your best defense. Right now our defense is getting Pimp slapped because of offense doesn’t threaten anyone.
constant red zone turnovers last year produced a horrible yards per point ratio. This isnt new to this team/these players. I would say that a lot of the issue is the hold overs from Andy Reid’s finesse players. Until Cooper plays to his size, or DJacc gains 75 pounds, this is going to stay the case. All of Chippah’s trickeration can only do so much to turn around a consistently ( over years) awful red zone team. More drafts required….
Weve got 4 TE, 5 WRs and 3RBs on the roster yet there’s really only 2.5 players i’d say that can “make a play”. (I’m counting BB as half a play-maker.)
Has there been much trickeration in the red zone the last two games? The playcalling looked pretty standard to me.
“Losing Maclin hurt the offense for sure, but the Eagles still should have a more consistent passing attack than they do.” What gives you this confidence, Tommy? Cooper has not been getting much separation. I know he’s a great blocker, but he’s a huge downgrade as a route runner compared to Maclin. On plays that Vick holds on to the ball too long, there usually is no one open. In my mind that’s either a play call problem (the Andy Reid “everyone go deep” plays), or a personnel problem.
KC really put the clamps on the receivers. I don’t dispute that. Still, there were a few plays where Vick missed open guys.
I’ve not finished studying the DEN game, but there looked to be at least a few plays where guys were open and not getting the ball. I don’t mean “wide open”. I’m talking NFL open. I don’t know if Vick is focused downfield or if Kelly has him focused on a particular player or what.
I would imagine his attention is downfield (or perhaps he just can’t see them). Historically, when the defense has underperformed, Vick has looked more for the big play than a series of smaller ones.
“to be at least a few plays where guys were open and not getting the ball. I don’t mean “wide open”. I’m talking NFL open.”
None of our receivers have shown that they make “NFL Open” catches with the exception of DJax.
Avant.
avant dropped a perfectly thrown ball on a quick slant. body catching.
Right, so is this the reason that Vick can’t throw a ball to a guy BEFORE HE’s OPEN? He’s doesnt trust the guy enough? Wow, was I wrong. Here I was thinking he didn’t make the throw because he is has no idea how to play the QB position or read a route.
Also, I incorrectly assumed that it was because he reverted to his known historical behavior of never watching film or reading the scouting reports. Right….film work and research is only necessary for slow white guys who lack the athletic ability to run like the wind.
Certainly not the case. You would have us believe that Vick’s failures can be somehow pinned on:
Offensive line not blocking well enough
WR failure to get separation
Coaching
Late hits on him
Bad hair day
Gatorade not cold enough on side lines
However, it cannot be Michael Vick’s fault because you have loved him since you used him in Madden 2003 and he threw 95 yards bombs after running around in the backfield for 2 minutes.
The guy is the future of the NFL. Oh wait, he won’t be in the nfl next year.
“Right….film work and research is only necessary for slow white guys who lack the athletic ability to run like the wind.”
And there you have it…
“None of our receivers have shown that they make “NFL Open” catches with the exception of DJax.”
So this must be why Vick has played horribly for the last two years. I thank you for giving me insight into the mind of Vick. I knew that nothing was his fault.
I thank you for showing me your true colors.
If you are insinuating that I am only supporting Vick because we share the same color skin, you are wrong and that is reprehensible. I have loved Vick since he thought up that ingenious device called a “rape stand” to breed his dogs. Also, I thought his clever “false pocket” in the water bottle was glorious. Finally, I love him for his hard work and birthday parties.
But mostly, i blindly worship Vick because he has street cred and speaks so eloquently.
And for the record, I am an African American male.
“Vick and Kelly must do something to get the ball out quicker”
Seeing as Vick has been failing at this his entire career, and it is the reason he is so bad in the RZ, I’m not hopeful.
As long as Vick is the QB the point scoring will be inconsistent.
Next topic.
Cooper isn’t a NFL quality WR (duh). Good at blocking, but bad at receiving.
Lane Johnson will improve, but right now he’s disappointing.
Jason Peters isn’t being “Jason Peters.”
Bryce Brown, major disappointment.
STs isn’t that much improved despite the emphasis.
Henery, how much rope does he have?
Defense/DC, proof that negative plus negative =/= positive.
I wonder if the problem with the OL is the scheme, and the fact that it’s a mismatch for Vick. Juan’s blocking scheme focused on big OL who were taught to hold a pocket for long periods to allow big plays to develop, but the increased sophistication of blitzing schemes that forced OL to move their feet started exposing that (and dropping safeties deep), even in 2006 and 2008, with a solid OL of pass blockers, they had to resort to the short passing games to get to the playoffs after floundering with the deep attack.
Mudd and Stoutland are both zone blocking coaches, Stoutland focuses more on blocking for the inside zone run, but in both cases a lot more practice and coaching is spent on run blocking than pass blocking compared to Juan. And the OL personnel are more suited to run blocking and getting to the second level than anchoring against the pass. This is a good fit with a QB who gets rid of the ball quickly, taking pressure off the OL, and passing out of the read option, where the OL are run blocking initially (since they don’t know what decision the QB made).
Problem is Vick doesn’t process information quickly on the field, isn’t decisive and holds the ball too long, relying on his arm and athleticism – and DCs have responded with man coverage and pressure. Vick may simply be a bad fit in this offense despite his physical gifts.
“a lot more practice and coaching is spent on run blocking than pass blocking… the OL personnel are more suited to run blocking and getting to the second level than anchoring against the pass. This is a good fit with a QB who gets rid of the ball quickly, taking pressure off the OL, and passing out of the read option, where the OL are run blocking initially (since they don’t know what decision the QB made).”
I think this is great point. The two best games our offense has had have been against Washington where it felt like the ball flew out of Vick’s hand immediately – I think he averaged around 2 seconds – and the Charger’s who have a terrible pass rush. We can’t count on our opponents to have such a bad pass rush. This offense is designed on the quick strikes that worked in the Washington game.
It feels like Vick committed to Kelly’s system for the first game. And then reverted because of the great success they had. Almost like the confidence he built up was more in himself than the system which led to more running and holding onto the ball longer.
On that last paragraph, you’d have to assign Kelly a good deal of the blame for allowing Vick to “revert.” I think if it continues in the Giants game, we are in trouble. It’ll mean either Kelly isn’t fixing what’s broken, or he is unable to.
Reverted to what? He looks a LOT better than last year. People say he doesn’t get down on runs, now he gets down. Takes hits instead of throwing the ball out. Throws dangerous passes trying to make play. Runs first, doesn’t stay in pocket. He’s improving week on week it seems, but if you don’t like him you don’t like him.
You’re right that Vick looks a lot better than last year, but I feel like his performance *within the scheme* has degraded.
There were a lot of long pass plays vs the Chargers and their pass rush was so bad Vick could hold onto the ball for 4-5 seconds. I feel like he’s taken that game as his new formula for success, started feeling like it was 2010 again, and isn’t playing within the quick read, quick pass offense we saw in the preseason and against Washington. I see Vick holding on to the ball for too long and doing a lot more unnecessary scrambling.
Washington’s defense is hot garbage, but I feel like that was the only game with the real Chip Kelly offense. Read the defense and get the ball out in 2 seconds. Vick proved he could do it, and then he stopped. There were a couple plays yesterday when he did it and they worked beautifully, but he’s not playing that way consistently.
Can only throw two open guys. I agree the O has looked more stagnant, but we were playing playoff teams and we lost 2 of our top WRs in pre-season. Vick also holds the ball but i just don’t think the short game is there right now. They are only rushing 3 and then playing press man on everyone else. If they blitz Vick finds the open guy, but if not, it’s hard. See here.
http://www.phillymag.com/birds247/2013/09/30/game-review-eagles-offense-vs-broncos-d/
This was something I wrote after the KC game. I thought he was getting overconfident also.
This was the first true challenge our offense faced. Washington’s defense this year, has looked worse that ours did last year. San Diego’s wasn’t much better. The WR’s were constantly getting open and Vick wasn’t really challenged to place the ball. The Chiefs have Pro Bowlers on the defensive side that have picked up right where they left off with last year. Hats off to Andy and the Chiefs in executing their game plan. If anybody knew how to beat Vick, it would be Andy.
I think the bigger issue was fatigue. This team was tired. Vick looked off most of the night. 3 games in 11 days will do that to you. The early success he had in the first two weeks may have contributed to his overconfidence and getting lazy with the small things like staring down his receivers and not setting his feet on his throws. He stared down 10 pass plays in the first half of the Chargers game. That carried over into this game.
Who had 90% of the receiving yards in the first 2 games? I wondered if that was b/c of Vick playing favorites or the scheme being run to get DJ open. I think teams stopped respecting eagles skill players b/c they can’t beat one on one matchups. That’s what this scheme is predicated on. If Riley cooper beats his coverage once, it’s a TD b/c Denver didn’t ave any safety help. Bump and run means it’s going to take longer for a receiver to get open.
We started getting TE’s involved it just seemed like we couldn’t get any rhythm and that’s the worst.
“I think teams stopped respecting eagles skill players b/c they can’t beat one on one matchups.”
And that’s the deal. Everyone on here talking about Vick BUT our guys can’t beat man coverage. Any one of them beat man coverage and we are steam rolling people. Defenses are banking on our skill receivers sucking. And so far they haven’t been wrong.
Let’s not lay all the blame on one spot. The fact is that there are a number of issues, which does include Vick. Stop with the insinuation that once again he is being victimized. He is the maestro of the offense & touches the ball every snap. He is the one staring down his reads, he is the one taking the sacks, he is the one not setting his feet. There is some merit to the notion of him not throwing guys open. He did it in game 1, but has backed off significantly in his confidence to do so. You saw it in game 2 start to rear it’s head, although he did have some good moments. But game 3 was a disaster for him in this department as he made some highly questionable throws. Sunday was different & he didn’t have any picks, but he also seemed inconsistent & lacking confidence in his throws. You can’t just say that all the blame falls at the hands of the receivers. Sometimes you have to trust in your ability to place the ball where your receiver has a chance to make the play & have the confidence in your receiver, despite the drops & incompletions that they’ll make the play. For example, Phillip Rivers was throwing the ball to his outside receivers despite what appeared to be very good man coverage. They made the catches.
Do the receivers need to step up and push through press coverage, yes. Does the O-line need to play up to its potential and protect Vick better, yes. Does the coaching staff need to find ways to get guys open against the press coverages, yes. Does Vick need to play with more confidence & consistency, yes. They, meaning the entire team need to improve, and particularly the offense, need to improve and play up to their potential.
By the way, I’m not attacking you, I’m merely making a point in conjunction to your statement that the offensive woes lie with the entire offense from players to coaches. Except maybe Shady, who does his job on a consistent basis & we can’t point at him specifically as being a part of the problem of not executing and playing well.
“Let’s not lay all the blame on one spot. The fact is that there are a number of issues, which does include Vick. Stop with the insinuation that once again he is being victimized.”
Oh Jesus…
We’re talking this game. This game was primarily a receiver issue not a QB issue. Last game was an everybody issue…including a QB issue.
However on most Philly blogs it’s impossible to have a convo about anyone else unless you preface it by saying “Oh but Vick did badly to” whether he did or didn’t.
“Phillip Rivers was throwing the ball to his outside receivers despite
what appeared to be very good man coverage. They made the catches.”
Our guys don’t make those catches. For the umpteenth time they’ve shown REPEATEDLY that they don’t make those catches.
They don’t fight for balls. They catch with their bodies, making it easy for defenders to make plays on the ball. We don’t have guys who can do that.
Cooper dropped one of those balls in the KC game. Celek drops them all the time. Hell he drops balls that hit him dead in his hands.
Come on. Stop making comparisons to receivers who do things ours don’t. That’s not a QB issue…that’s on them.
Forget it. As always you’re lost to just pick out one statement and pick it apart in defense of Vick and yet ignore the fact that yes he has flaws too that lend to the problems at hand of the offense as a whole is not executing on a consistent level.
As you stated earlier yourself, you’ve shown your true colors.
lol.
I’ve talked plenty about Vick flaws. Plenty. The point that you so conveniently missed is that just b/c you have a convo about something else…something that was more pertinent than “Vick’s flaws” doesn’t mean you’re discounting anything he does.
Nothing is ever a QB issue, until Vick is benched. And then it is all the Qbs fault.
I really can’t wait until Vick is off the roster, he is a cancer.
“We’re talking this game. This game was primarily a receiver issue not a QB issue. Last game was an everybody issue…including a QB issue.”
Funny the way you do that. So last game it was an everybody issue. This game it was definitely not a QB issue? Huh? So when Vick does play horribly, it’s always a team issue or not him at all. Gotcha
While I don’t exactly share your same mindset on Vick, I think we’re somewhat making the same point towards her argument. To choose to ignore the issues with Vick and only point towards the receivers, is to show support for Vick as if he had no bearing. That’s not the case and she just doesn’t want to add him to the equation to portray a neutral stance. It’s not the first time either.
Regardless, I think that I should reveal that I am neither a Vick supporter or hater. I love his talent, really love his talent & competitiveness. But the guy is literally a Jekyll & Hyde roller coaster that just lacks the consistency to win me fully over. I thought he played brilliantly against WASH, pretty good against SD, terrible against KC & OK against DEN. I’d be happy with his play if it were more even keel and reliably more consistent, but outside of 6 games in 2010, his career play WITH US has been all over the place. I’m not even considering his career in ATL, because frankly that wasn’t QB play & I blame the ATL organization for not developing him properly as a QB that could’ve been in that elite class had he been coached early on.
I love how Vick “doesnt process information quickly.” Eli Manning has thrown 9 INTs in 4 games, does he process the information quickly? Joe Flacco threw 5 INTs yesterday, did he have trouble reading the coverage? How’d he process the information? Jay Cutler threw 4 INTs yest……Big Ben holds the ball forever, too slow processing the information?
its convenient to say, “cant read the defense” or “doesnt process the information” Its a subjective, perjorative assumption that is only applied to black QBs. If I’m wrong, show me the last time any of those “cant read the defense” “too slow processing the information” is applied to anyone other than Mike Vick or another “athletic” QB.
Austin, I read all of your posts…much respect, not calling you a racist….just dont agree with or condone this stereotype that is applied when convenient. Let me guess, Foles is quick processing the information?
And please dont give me the PFF stats showing Foles getting the ball out quicker than Vick last yr….of course the ball comes out quicker when you are throwing bubble screens and slants all day….as evidenced by Nick’s 6.48 YPA(29th) last yr…..Vick holding the ball is sometimes a function of longer developing routes…..
Ok, let me stop…..I dont wanna sound like an “apologist.” The guy isnt perfect….he is, what he is….flawed but hardly the major issue….. red zone drops(Casey and Celek) and penalties (TD called back due to Lane’s penalty was the difference in the outcome of the SD game), not to mention playcalling….the Foles fade to Djax(seriously????), abandoning the run inside the red zone?
So yes, Vick has a part, but if Foles was a better player than Vick, he’d be playing,,,,,he’s not.
How about Tebow?
I don’t believe it is double-secret racism that leads to the tendencies that you mentioned. I think it is more of a style thing. The question with athletic QBs is typically whether or not they can handle the mental aspect. Many of the athletic QBs are black. But that doesn’t mean accusing a black QB of having trouble reading the defense makes one racist.
Now you could question why the system leading to the pros seems to find and develop athletic, black QBs and “traditional” white QBs, but questioning the preconceived notions of recruiters and scouts might be a little much for this forum.
Donovan McNabb, Steve McNair, and Warren Moon had no problem reading defenses. Neither does Russell Wilson. It’s not a race thing.
Vick just isn’t a quick or particularly good decision maker. This is born out by the length of time he holds the football and his high career turnover rate.
Fair enough, so is Jay Cutler a good decision maker? He and Tony Romo were the only QBs to have multiple games with 4 or more INTs last yr? How bout Eli? He’s thrown more INTs than anyone in the league 2010-12 (56) and leads the league again this yr…..whats the issue there? Cant read the defense? Bad decision maker? What is it?
My point is, “bad decision maker” “slow processing the information” “cant read the defense” tags are not equally applied. Not race, ok….what is it?
Jay Cutler *is* prone to bad decisions. So is Tony Romo. Eli, for all his virtues, does make too many bad decisions as well. As for not reading the defense, that’s more a matter of not recognizing blitzes and getting the ball to hot reads quickly. Plenty of white quarterbacks (e.g. Blaine Gabbert) have that issue. Holding the ball too long? Roethlisberger is even worse about that than Vick (although better in other areas).
I won’t deny that some people apply these labels in a racially loaded way, but I don’t. You shouldn’t suggest that someone is racially biased in their assessments until you have evidence.
So, let me get this straight:
You are playing the race card with Austinfan? Why even go there? Especially against a rational, forward think contributor like Austinfan. The race card is always a trump card when it comes to criticism of a QB who happens to be black. It’s lazy.
If you read my entire post, I said, I am not calling AustinFan a racist….I enjoy his posts…..I dont enjoy the “lazy” stereotype applied to certain QBs……”doesnt process the information quickly.”
Really? Exactly how are you making that determination? Its a subjective conclusion based on????……how the heck do you know what anyone recognizes and doesnt recognize……you know what? forget it….You’re right…race never enters into anything….everyone, everywhere is unbiased, never stereotypes…..my bad…..its the internet where everyone is right, no one ever sees anything but what suits their myopic perspective or supports their conclusions…
The race card LOL…..yeah, ok….I’m playing the “race card.” Joke…..I’m done posting….my bad for reading this crap and my worse for responding to it.
There were a few things that really discouraged me about the offense, and I’d love to see a separate post on them.
Vick looked like he held the ball forever. Was there really no one open? It kills me that he won’t even try to get the ball out to a receiver sometimes. Trust your guy to make a contested catch 1 on 1 or put the ball where only they can get it. The truly great quarterbacks excel at that with back shoulder throws and throwing with anticipation before a receiver makes a cut.
The other discouraging sign was Chip Kelly. I love the hire and am willing to ride it out – and yes, the offense is getting yards, so there is some “success” – but this isn’t the Chip Kelly we were led to believe. We knew the Bronco’s would score 40+ and yet we PUNT 3 times in Bronco territory!?! Where’s “Big Balls” Chip??
I believe Chip Kelly can succeed in the NFL. I believe he can be exceptional. I also believe that the one thing that can best destroy his NFL career is himself. He needs to stop trying to be an “NFL head coach” and just be the Chip Kelly we hired.
Not sure why you are expecting Vick to be a truly great QB. I think he’s played well for what he is. Our receiving corps is probably the worst in the league (other than injury) outside of Seattle and maybe some others.
I agree Kelly should have been more aggressive, b/c why not. But i think they made a coaching decision not to give Peyton a short field — but unfortunately that’s predicated on us getting stops. Additionally Henery isn’t making long FGs so thats also limiting.
Well, our WR corps currently is markedly better than anything than McNabb had(sans the TO year). Somehow McNabb made it work with Thrash and Pinkston. Vick has Desean who is a top tier WR.
“Kelly feels like the offense is close. He sees the Eagles problems as
mostly self-inflicted. If they can just clean things up, the points will
come. I understand where he’s coming from, but I’m not sure I totally
agree.”
I’m glad you are calling Kelly out for this. I think far too often, we see “self-inflicted wounds” and assume that they are easy to fix. The problem is, they haven’t been fixed in over two years. Kelly will have a different approach than AR, but those kinds of mistakes don’t necessarily have an easy fix and may be something we continue to see throughout the rest of the season. I just think that assuming we can improve by eliminating self-inflicted wounds is way more difficult than anyone makes them out to be.
Only Don Shula was great at fixing those kinds of problems . . . maybe because he fell into a ton of talent in Baltimore in ’63 and then Miami in ’70.
Just on offense, his teams had:
3 HOF QBs in Unitas, Griese, and Marino (covering the entirety of Shula’s coaching career — not a bad gig if you can get it).
3 HOF WRs in Lenny Moore (an All Pro HB too), Raymond Berry, and Bouncy Paul Warfield.
1 HOF TE in John Mackey.
1 HOF FB in Larry Csonka.
4 HOF O-linemen in OT/OG Jim Parker (only HOF O-lineman to make All Pro at two positions), C’s Jim Langer and Dwight Stephenson, and OG Larry Little.
Plus some truly professional players in QBs Earl Morrall and Don Strock; HBs Tom Matte, Jim Kiick, and Eugene Morris; WRs Howard Twilley, Marlin Briscoe, Nat Moore, and the Marks Brothers (Duper and Clayton); TEs Tom Mitchell, Marv Fleming, and Jim Mandich; along with perennial Pro Bowlers in OT Bob Vogel and OG Bob Kuechenberg, Pro Bowl C Bill Curry, and a pair some very good OTs in Wayne Moore and Jon Geisler.
And I haven’t even gotten to the defensive players Shula coached.
Talk about a guy blessed with talent — who refused to tolerate mistakes.
How much is talent and how much is coaching / scheme? That’s always the question i wonder.
Andy Reid is proving that coaching matters.
But eliminating dumb mistakes was never his forte.
I was thinking more along the lines of penalties and turnovers. Shula-coached teams routinely led the NFL in fewest penalties and TOs. Certainly the talent he had, particularly early in his Miami tenure, allowed for schemes that were very conservative — but devastatingly effective. Even with Marino, INTs didn’t run particularly high.
Shula was on the rules committee. That had to help in terms of knowing exactly what his guys could get away with.
same thing as it always been. we don’t have any red zone threats
We have em. May not be #1 in the NFL in weapons but we have plenty.
i saw every WR we had blanketed
Okay so you’re talking about WRs.
our TEs suck too…we have two legit weapons — mccoy and jackson
The DEN DBs were all over the Eagles WRs like Peanut Butter on a sticky day. Vick sat in the pocket making reads on blanketed WRs. The first half success was borne upon Vick’s mobility. He was seeing the same thing but started to run after a shorter time.
Getting the ball out sooner will take pressure off the o-line and frustrate the opposing defense, but that is predicated on having somewhere to put the ball.
agree
So Vick’s pocketed sticky, peanut butter-covered blankets? No wonder we sucked.
Watching the game, it sure looked like DRC was able to shut down DeSean. I wonder what tape will show.
Tommy,
What do you suppose Denver has in terms of scheme/coaching that caused DRC to suddenly become a decent CB again?
Winning games
Also they haven’t fired the guy who told him all the sweet things he liked to hear.
I haven’t seen anyone talk about how the offense didn’t turn the ball over yesterday.
I think that was the most disconcerting thing. Against KC, it appeared we shut ourselves down with the turnovers. But against Denver, the offense (what looked to be the strength of the team) was simply ineffective.
Meh, we just got more creative with stupdity.
2nd Drive: Had chance to set up 1st & goal, but Celek decided to look for the endzone before catching the ball. Settled for FG.
3rd Drive: Got to about the Broco’s 10, and ooops, holding call on the rookie. Eventually settled for another FG.
5th Drive: Another killer holding call (mathis I think). This time we punt, don’t pin Manning, and…yeah.
Next drive: dropped pass by Shady, another punt for a touchback.
The next drives consisted of a 3 & out and then a blocked punt. Oh, and then Alex misses a FG shortly after.
FWIW, if “the rookie” doesn’t hold, Vick gets sacked anyway. Better 1st and 20 than 2nd and 17. Of course, his failed assignment was the reason Vick was in danger in the first place.
“The problem is that you only want to go heavy with TEs if that creates a favorable matchup. Kelly didn’t see that as the case yesterday. Maybe he will next week.”
That reminds me of reporters asking Andy Reid, “Down by only 3, and with a 5 yard-per-carry average, how come you only ran the ball twice in the second half?”
Andy: “We thought there were some match-ups we could exploit in the passing game.”
BC:
You concisely nailed something I was thinking when I read that part of T-Law’s post with a comparison close to home.
Seems Kelly’s just not seeing favorable matchups for 12-personnel.
That said, Ertz did see his most snaps yesterday.
The offense does need to make some changes to be more effective. Zach Ertz looks like he’s improved since his disappointing first game against the Redskins. He’s very fast and a smooth runner, especially for a tight end. He should get on the field more, and frankly, I think he should overtake Celek as the main tight end in this offense very soon.
The Eagles offensive line cannot sustain their pass blocks long enough for Vick to figure out what to do. Both Vick and the OL are at fault for this. Not only that, but none of the receivers except Jackson can get open. Let Damaris Johnson and Jeff Maehl take some of Riley Cooper’s reps. They’re both faster and more elusive than Cooper. They’re certainly nowhere near DJax, but they’re the best we have.
The point of running an up-tempo offense is to move so quickly that the defense can’t get themselves in position to make a play. I might be wrong, but I feel like the speed of the offense has gone way down since Week 1. Maybe the guys are already gassed, in which case I fear that Kelly’s offense is never going to get off the ground again. Hopefully, this is just a learning curve, while having to go up against tough opponents. Either way, something’s got to change.
from what i understand, Ertz needs to improve his blocking a little more to overtake Celek on the roster.
i’m certainly hoping he does! i’m an Ertz fan.
Can’t run ultra speed in mile high, especially if you risk just giving peyton more possessions. I think he’s slowed it down a bit based on game day situations.
i dont think we can use “gassed” as an excuse for the offense… in the second half, the Offense had all of halftime plus a long drive from Denver before they even got on the field.
the offense then ran 6 plays (incl punt). can’t say they are gassed here, maybe the opposite – they’ve been off the field for a long time!
Denver gets the ball back, uses 3+ min of game time.
the offense then runs 4 plays (incl punt, 3 and out)
the have been sitting for 3 minutes of game time, likely much more real time considering the Denver TD and change of possession. again, i doubt they would be gassed here.
Denver gets the ball back, again uses 3+ min of game time.
the offense then ran 6 plays (incl blocked punt).
the offense gets 9 plays in its final drive (incl missed fg).
again, plenty of time to rest in 3+ min plus time for change of possession.
i would really hope the Offense isn’t gassed after that!!
i would not argue with saying the Defense was gassed. but thats a different story lol
Tommy can you hear ?Vick is not the future..Tommy can you hear? losing Maclin and Benn hurttttttttttttttttt a lot more than you or Kelly will admit..Tommy that defense lacks any talent aside from Kendricks..Tommy we are two or three years away from Kelly making this his roster
I believe T-Law’s on record concurring with each of your points.
Other than T-Law and Jimmy Bama, no one in the Philadelphia football literati have had the guts to say Vick’s done in one . . . unless he finds another bag of 2010 magic dust.
Same with the WRs — i.e., he agrees.
And especially as to the roster proper.
________________
T-Law’s a big boy and can defend himself.
But as his attorney, I felt obliged to head off a dispute.
Kendricks is the only talent on D — laughable.
ha ha ha you see something other than him?..perhaps cox?
I’m not often a rank and file Vick supporter, but I didn’t see him messing up much last night. Maybe the All 22 will reveal more, but he seemed like one of the sole bright spots. If we left everything else the same and subbed Vick out for another QB last night with the same game plan and calls and execution upfront and with our skill player, I don’t think many QBs would have had a better game than Vick. Just horrid execution by 90% of the team.
During training camp, a lot was written (relatively speaking) about the import of the Eagles’ QBs “throwing receivers open”.
Vick, apparently, did that to Kelly’s satisfaction during the exhibition season.
With the live bullets flying, MV’s reverted — T-Law, is this right — more to throwing to open receivers than throwing receivers open.
I think that certain times “throwing your reciever open” is a riskier call to make. You have to make assumptions, like that the reciever will continue to shield off the defender, or make a good break, or continue moving at the same speed. Eagles fans, and writers imparticular, seem unwilling to tolerate that risk. No way that Vick would live down an Eli manning esque performance through the first four games. Also, it seems like some of Vick’s better throws are doing just that. I mean, nearly every time Cooper catches the ball, Vick is throwing him open.
Maybe I’m just not seeing it, and some film breakdown would help. But for the life of me I just can’t see what Vick could have done. If some of those drops didn’t happen, we might not be discussing a very different outcome, but I think we’d be discussing a much different offensive performance.
on one play, where djax went out hurt, he really put the ball into a spot that only he could catch it. he led him pretty well, i thought. granted, that might not be ‘throwing the receiver open’, but he did get it to the right spot and on time so i’ll give him credit for a nice throw.
on the other hand, the throw to djax in the front corner of the endzoe that DRC broke up was a good example of not throwing the receiver open. that is an anticipation play – the ball needs to be on its way when the WR makes his cut so that the 1-2 yards of separation is enough to make the catch before the DB closes in. the ball was late getting there and DRC was quick to cover.
Re: Pre-DGR Question on Everyone’s Mind . . . a Trade at RB
T-Law:
Do you expect to see more of Polk and less of Brown — possibly up to, Brown’s on the trading block . . . for the right price?
Polk seems like a classic, one-cut N-S runner. He’s a pretty good receiver. And, so far, seems good in pass pro in his limited chances.
Brown’s still tantalizing us with his raw — and breathtaking — open-field running ability. Heck, he’s become a pretty good receiver and seems open routinely on wheel routes.
But I’m starting to wonder if Brown’s *instincts* — the transition from what his eyes see to what his legs do — are not particularly good. He’s a beast at hitting the open crease straight ahead or in the 6, 7, 8, and 9 holes.
But picking his hole then cutting back and accelerating out of his cut, like Wilbert Montgomery was so great at, seems to be missing.
Brown’s no question more talented than Polk. The explosiveness, the quickness, the power.
And if the Eagles ran out of the classic I-formation, I could see Brown look a lot better, with a chance to move with more deliberation to pick a hole and then had a 3-yard start to hit it at full speed. (Thinking of Eric Dickerson, though Brown’s not there by a long shot. But the mental image is helpful.)
So . . . if some team tossed a 3rd round pick on the table, right now, would you — GM/Pro Personnel Director T-Law — take it or recommend the move.
Honestly, I feel like the time’s getting closer to make a move like that.
I know Brown’s high-level football experience is barely 2 seasons post-HS. But of any position on the field, RB is most instinctive. And at the moment, Brown’s instincts aren’t matching the physical talent.
Trade Brown and go sign Kerwynn Williams.
> Someone asked about Jeff Maehl getting more snaps after his catches
yesterday. I’d be willing to give him a few more plays, but don’t
overrate what he did at the end of a blowout.
I’d love to see Maehl get more reps. I honestly think he’s a Wes Welker type. Combine stats between Welker, Amendola, Maehl:
Wes Welker: 5’9″, 195 lbs (stats from his pro day)
40 yd dash: 4.65; 20 yd shuttle: 4.01; 3 cone drill: 7.09
Danny Amendola: 5’11”, 179 lbs
40 yd dash: 4.68; 20 yd shuttle: 4.25; 3 cone drill: 6.81
Jeff Maehl: 6’0″, 190 lbs
40 yd dash: 4.62; 20 yd shuttle: 3.94; 3 cone drill: 6.42
Now admittedly stats do *NOT* a player make, but Maehl passes the eye test too. He makes catches. if you look at his body, and stats, he is not a prototypical receiver, but I’d love to see what he could do as a slot receiver. I’m a huge Jason Avant fan, but he hasn’t been able to get open. I think Maehl could be more successful in that role, and could give Vick a reliable check down receiver.
Avant’s 40 time was 4.73 at the Combine.
Marques Colston was 4.71.
Anquan Boldin’s was also 4.71.
Of the 3, Avant plays the slowest.
I’d love to see a different face in the slot, if only to see what Maehl can do.
But since Avant’s winning the continuing slot-WR competition, I don’t see any changes ahead.
Those are big guys he’s compared to — need either size or speed, hopefully both.
I think 40 times are overrated for slot receivers. Welker who is prototypical is not fast north to south, but he has tremendous burst. He also has those enviable stick-em type hands that means automatic catch if the ball is within 2 yards. This is not to say that Maehl = Welker. Welker is a veteran and has all those tricks to get open, even though I think he’s a bit slower than he has been in years past.
What I think may make a slot successful is not just the physical tools (which I think Maehl may have) but the intangibles like being in sync with your quarterback. Welker has INCREDIBLE anticipation and knows exactly where he needs to be.
Agree + not afraid of contact, got some YAC too.
I’m just hoping to see some more usage out of guys like Damaris Johnson and the TE’s. I was under the impression we kept so many because we were going to be using some creative sets but I just haven’t seen much of it.
TBH I wonder if Chip is holding back on using more creative looks because we don’t seem to be executing even the standard stuff correctly. Whatever the reason its kind of disappointing that the O hasn’t been nearly as exotic as I was expecting. If we lose, I want to lose in an entertaining way damnit!
I don’t know about the “holding back.”
Kelly — as I think T-Law argued not too long ago — seems like a coach who’s more than happy saying, “we’re running the inside power play, try to stop us.”
That is, Kelly’s about execution far more than deception. Reid was the converse in his best years.
Kelly = Lombardi-esque style.
Reid = Landry-esque style.
Well put AC. I agree.
If we’re gonna get smoked I want a Landry-esque style then. C’mon Chip, give me 4 TE sets and swinging gate formations at midfield!
I prefer the Lombardi way (or Bill Walsh or Jimmy Johnson). Because when you are in a two min drill, you wont try to do something you have only practiced a few times, but just go to your bread and butter play.
i dont think we ran enough offensive plays in the second half to say whether or not he is holding stuff back
Naw, man, it really is the WRs. I watch the Vikings, too, and this kind of red zone futility was a major feature of the 2010 and 2011 Vikings, and only less of a problem in 2012, primarily because AD had so many long TD runs and Rudolph had such a big catch radius. T’was no more difficult to shut up Percy Harvin (outside some some rather insanely shifty TDs) than it was for DJax.
I get the Vick is on the brain of many people in Philly, but Vick played very well in the overall context of his offense and situation, and is not remotely close to the bench. Wishful thinking will only make an idiot out of you.
Joe Webb would’ve scored 5 touchdowns on the ground and 3 in the air. Leading the Eagles to a 200 point margin of victory.
Common denominator: both the 2010 and 2011 Vikings and the 2013 Eagles have mediocre (or worse) quarterbacks.
Remember the good old days when we looked forward to watching the Eagles beat teams like the Broncos in front of a national audience? Now we look forward to playing the Bucs and Raiders because we might be able to beat them. Argh.
Curry only gets 13 snaps..
.,
Graham gets 20
..
Soap was benched forcing Thorton into the NT, with Cole moving from OLB to DE, and the eagles had the audacity to basically line up Boykin as an OLB
…
Like I have been saying for two years! Celek is a BUM!! Please no one dare bring up blocking. There are Undrafted blocking TEs all over the waiver wire…Can Celek be benched already? give his snaps to Ertz and Casey
…
Wolff isn’t ready..
..
Chip sacrificed half our depth for Special teams, and this is what we get? Withthe emphasis we have put on special teams we should have a top 5 unit..What a joke. Fipp needs to hold up a mirror and give himself the death stare.
…
This wasn’t our first loss, and we were expected to lose…but this was the first time this group folded. They rolled over and played dead in the second half..
…
I don’t give two craps about wins and loses…but I care about how we lose, and this is unacceptable, starting withth e HEADCoach, Tired of sugar coating, tired of adjustment periods and grace periods…I don’t need to see Chip produce a winner this year, but they need to get it together starting with CHIP Kelly!!! UnacceptAble
“Chip sacrificed half our depth for Special teams, and this is what we get? ”
Ugh. Is this about Acho? On the Giants (the 0-4 Giants) practice squad. McCoy? Is he even on a team right now? Shepherd? Has he appeared in a game for the 0-4 Bucs? Salas? Still on our PS.
What are you whining about?
C’mon. Agreed that STs need to get better, but don’t manufacture issues just to fit your agenda.
Not to defend Celek, because he has dropped too many passes, but it is not just his blocking. What he offers is the best combination of receiving skills and blocking skills available to us. Better than the other TEs, at least so far, and better than anyone on the waiver wire.
I think when Curry got snaps is the most annoying part. I didn’t even notice him in the game until things were well out of hand, and a lot of his snaps got eaten up during that worthless 4th quarter drive at the end of the game. After how well he played last week its obvious he’s just not going to be on the field no matter what he does.
“…get the ball out quicker…”
To who?
Who exactly is he going to get the ball out quicker to?
lol/smh
Tom Brady is throwing the ball to Kendrell Thompkins, Aaron Dobson, and Julian Edelman. And yet somehow he’s got the Pats’ offense humming along well enough that the team is 4-0.
Part of what a top notch quarterback can do is make pedestrian receivers look better than they are by pinpointing the ball to where they can catch even when they’re pretty well covered. Vick has never done and will never do that.
Vick isn’t Tom Brady, wow revelation.
KT is 6’1″ 193, 4.5 40, 33.5 inch vertical
AD is 6’3 215, 4.43 40.
First, we don’t have receivers like that on this team, period. Those two can spread the field opening up room in the slot (edelman). Second Brady has been playing in the same system w/ the same coach for his whole career. Of course it’s like clockwork now.
Its fine to not like Vick and blame him for everything, but don’t make completely off base comparisons.
Riley Cooper had better combine measurements than Thompkins. As for Dobson, being big and fast doesn’t make a guy a good receiver. Ifeanyi Momah is even bigger and faster than Dobson and isn’t on an NFL roster.
The comparison has nothing to do with familiarity with system. It’s about having the touch to consistently deliver the ball with pinpoint accuracy to spots where receivers who aren’t open can catch it. Brady has it. So do Manning, Rodgers, and Brees. So too even does an otherwise so-so quarterback like Phil Rivers. Vick does not.
Yeah Brady’s sub 60% completion percentage and sub 50% completion percentage in the Jets game screams touch and ball placement.
It was the Pats D and MM being MM that kept the Pats in the Jets game. But don’t let facts get in the way of your argument.
The Patriots’ receivers must have dropped 10 balls in that game, many of them perfectly thrown. If they catch the ball with anything close to NFL competence that’s not a close game.
I can’t believe anyone would even insinuate Vick belongs in the same sentence with a guy like Brady. One’s a highly variable but on average middle-of-the-pack NFL quarterback. The other’s a first ballot hall of famer who’s still among the top 6 or 7 guys in the league at his position even at an advanced age. There’s no comparison.
“I can’t believe anyone would even insinuate Vick belongs in the same sentence with a guy like Brady”
Way to miss the point when your point has been shown for the BS that it is.
Way to go off on an irrelevant tangent.
Brady is a better red zone quarterback than Vick. Is and always has been, this is born out by the stats. Brady has played with mediocre receivers at times in his career and made them look good.
Vick’s receiving corps right now isn’t very good, which definitely does partially excuse his poor red zone performance. But considering that he has a solid corps of tight ends (much better than Brady’s, incidentally) and a very good pass catching running back at his disposal, and that he’s NEVER been a particularly good red zone passer, it’s a rather small “partially”.
You know you contradict yourself in 100% of your posts. Which is why I’m going to stop reading them.
Qualification and nuance /=/ self-contradiction, but that’s something that often goes unacknowledged on the internet. Receiving corps = wide receivers. Tight ends/running backs = other skill position players. Does it make sense now?
By all means, stop reading my posts. It will spare me the trouble of having to explain to you what I meant when you don’t get it the first time.
“The Patriots’ receivers must have dropped 10 balls in that game, many of
them perfectly thrown. If they catch the ball with anything close to
NFL competence that’s not a close game.”
So I guess those (at least) 4 drops of perfectly thrown balls in the Denver game by our guys doesn’t count huh?
Last I checked, 10 > 4, so while they count they don’t count as much. 4 is an average number of drops in a game. 10 is a very high number.
10 is a number you pulled out of your rear end. And 4 perfectly thrown passes dropped by receivers is NEVER acceptable.
But okay.
Actually, no. I watched the game with a friend of mine who’s a Patriots fan and we counted them. We may have even missed a few. But keep guessing, you’ll be right sooner or later.
LOL.
Brady’s current completion percentage is 58.9%
The Pats have beat the:
1-3 Falcons
2-2 Jets (10-13 they won that game Brady had a sub 50 completion percentage that game))
0-4 Bucs
2-2 Bills
Their defense gave up:
23/10/7/23 pts respectively
They haven’t won b/c of Brady’s brilliance. They’ve won b/c:
1. They are a better complete team than the Eagles
2. They’ve played worse competition
The Eagles have been beaten by:
– the 4-0 Broncos
– 4-0 Kansas City Chiefs
– 2-2 Chargers
Our defense (and STs) gave up:
52/26/33 pts. respectively
But yeah…it’s been Brady making those guys look good.
I’m not arguing that Brady hasn’t had help or that the Eagles don’t have much bigger problems than Vick. Both things are true.
I’m arguing that a great quarterback can still be productive with mediocre receivers. For the past two games, Vick hasn’t been.
And I’m pointing out to you that a “great” Qb cant’ make a WR be open or catch a football. Vick has been VERY productive the last two games – being responsible for 300 yards of offense sort of makes you productive.
However, you still can’t make someone catch the d@mn ball.
Yes, and we all know football games are won by who has the most yards at the end of the game.
I’m not arguing Vick hasn’t had his moments in the last two games. He has. I’m arguing he has performed poorly in the red zone and hasn’t been able to turn yards into points. And that’s pretty much indisputable.
xeynon — where were you the other day when I had this argument? LOL.
I haven’t had the opportunity to read all 100+ posts yet, so I apologize if someone else has brought up this point.
Regarding the topic of leaving points on the field. At what point does Henery become a liability? He’s definitely been off this year and has missed some very untimely field goals that could have had a major impact on the flow of the game.
On Sunday, he missed a 46-48 yarder – I know they aren’t automatic, but should be a makeable kick. Before the half, there was a drive that stalled at around the 37-38 yard line. It would have been a 55 yard attempt. Again, not an easy kick, but you would hope that your kicker has enough leg to at least make a valiant attempt at a 55 yarder at Mile High Stadium no less. Obviously, the coaches don’t have that trust in Henery as Chip opted to punt the ball. This bothers me because Henery was supposed to be an elite kicker coming out of college. At Nebraska he was a machine and showed tremendous leg power. For a former 4th round draft pick, I’d say he’s been very underwhelming so far.
The kicker hasn’t changed, and the snapper hasn’t changed, I wonder if he is out of sync with his new holder.
or he is just in a little funk like it happens with every kicker?
little funk? This has been happening since camp — and we’re 4 weeks into the season. Let’s agree on just funk that he snaps out of it this week with a 50yarder to end the half — so we can forget the one he missed vs. the Chargers.
Or maybe he’s simply overrated? I never saw anything special about Henery. I don’t care about what he does in the NFL not for the NCAA where Ryan Leaf and Geno Smith looked good.
Yea the guy who holds the franchise rookie record for most accurate kicker and also had the NFL record is overrated?
I view the Eagles’ problems in the red zone as much more talent-based than schematic. As many good players as this team has on that side of the ball, none of them are particularly great red zone guys. McCoy is a shifty runner who excels at making guys not missing, not a guy who reliably plows ahead for two or three yards or breaks a ton of tackles. Jackson is a great deep threat but not particularly good at running quick, crisp routes over the middle or getting open in tight spaces. Avant is a guy who excels at finding the soft spot in a zone, which doesn’t tend to exist when the defense has a much smaller amount of field to defend. Even the tight ends are more catch-and-run glorified receiver types than guys who are great at catching contested balls a la Jimmy Graham or Tony Gonzalez. Then there’s Mike Vick. He isn’t and never will be a great red zone quarterback. He’s not accurate enough, he lacks touch and anticipation, and he’s not consistently willing or able to thread the ball into tight spaces when receivers are covered. A guy like that is always going to leave points on the field.
People are upset at the offense because it was supposed to be the strength of our team. The Eagles brass was blatant this summer with the message that we are going to build the offense and de-prioritize defense.
As for the offense being close; when that close gap is due to a fundamentally flaw that has shown to be a thorn in the side, then the closeness become irrelevant. Our offense has put up yards, moving the ball up and down the field for several years now. For several years now, our prolific offense has been turnover prone and come up dead-flat in the red zone.
Vick is an old dog and we know (or should’ve known) what we’ll get with him. He struggles to throw receivers open, holds on to the ball too long, and takes too many sacks. Chip may be focusing on the OL in front of the media, but he’s been clear in the past that he puts a lot of sacks on the QB. Getting the ball out quickly is, supposedly, one of the most important qualities he’s seeking in a QB. I don’t think Vick is cutting it with what Chip wants to see.
Finally, I’m hopeful that with a more creative gameplan and aggressive pace we can still put up points with this underperforming group. I think you’d have to be blind to not notice that our offense was conventional the last 3 games. It was not quick paced nor was the option a featured part of the attack. I hope we’ll see a different offense vs. the Giants but I don’t think it’s a consistent strategy to rely on week-to-week for wins.
Tommy…So here is a point that I haven’t quite seen talked about. If we’re running an up-tempo offense predicated on exploiting mismatches & rhythm ball movement, why are we not seeing Vick tuck & run sooner if the option to pass isn’t there by say the count of 3? It seems like we’re waiting beyond that internal clock/window to try to let the play develop & in turn the defense has the added 2-3 seconds to adjust to what we’re trying to do. In the NFL, less than 1 second, let alone 2-3 seconds is the difference between a completed pass & a PBU.
Another thought that could very well be hurting the rhythm of the passing game is the read-option itself. The time itself executing the “option” after the snap is taking somewhere in the vicinity of 2 seconds. By that time the decision to keep or hand off should have already been made. If Vick keeps, he then should have 1 maybe 2 seconds to go through progressions & either run or let the ball fly. That’s not happening consistently enough for it to work effectively, especially if the receivers are having a hard time fighting through press coverage. If the receivers can’t get through the press, you’re already toast because the pass protection has already been trying to hold off the rush for 3-5 seconds. Take away the option and you’ve gained yourself a VERY valuable 1-2 seconds to execute a screen to Shady or a TE out of the backfield, hit a TE in the flat just as he makes his break, or a quick scamper up the middle for 2-3yds on a designed QB draw. Force the defense to make a stop, not waste time trying to freeze the LBs & Safeties with a delayed option, in turn taking away time from you dictating the play.
I am a die-hard Eagles fan, more so than any of you other fair-weather faggots. I believe within 2 years that Chip Kelly will have this team operating as a well-oiled machine; superbowl contender style. He needs to replace Vick with another fast negro QB, get another WR to complement Jackson, and replace Herremans. On defense, he needs to replace nearly everyone. Give Chip 2 years. He already said, “big niggers beat up little niggers” and I personally agree. I can’t wait to see an Eagles defense with some big ol fast niggers on defense that bring the wood. We have already seen that Chip does indeed have huge balls. His offense moves the ball up and down the field to the tune of 450 yards per game despite the fact that Vick and everyone else on the offense either drops passes, throws INTs, fumbles, or doesn’t get open. Watch what Chip’s offense will be doing in 2 years once he cleans house on these dudes fuckin up. FLY EAGLES
I don’t think the Giants know what’s coming. It’s going to be a blow out. Eagles hanging 40+ plus on them. Can’t wait….
color me shocked that celek has the dropsies and coop is a bum who can’t get open. Todd H. has gotten old FAST, and we have a rookie watching vick’s blind side. I love how the run game is improving, hopefully that is a platform to build off of. Kendricks seems to be back to his old tricks, over running plays and diving at feet for tackles.
Hopefully Benn can come back healthy and maybe Momah can pan out next year. We still aren’t stout against the run which I was hoping to see improvement on, but maybe by week 12 the picture will be clearer.
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