Putting Vick / Foles Into Perspective

Posted: October 14th, 2013 | Author: | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 257 Comments »

Nick Foles had a terrific performance yesterday against the Bucs. That immediately got the question going…who should be the QB…Foles or Vick?

Some people are comparing this situation to 2010, when Vick “stole” the job from Kevin Kolb after playing lights out in a couple of games. Could Vick fall victim to the same situation that actually made him the starter? There are some differences.

Kolb hadn’t played particularly well in the 2010 preseason and then he struggled in the Green Bay game before getting knocked out by Casey Clay Matthews. Vick took over and played great in that game and the following week.

Reid replaced Kolb with someone who was more physically gifted. He replaced Kolb with someone who was more experienced. Kolb was all about the future. Vick was all about the present, but he was just 30 so you knew he had a few more years. He also hadn’t been hurt in a long time so durability wasn’t a question.

Chip Kelly has a more complicated situation. Between Vick and Foles, Vick is the more physically gifted player. Between them, Vick is the more experienced player.

The big argument for Foles is that he is young and could be the QB of the future. Why not go ahead and give that guy the job?

That is logical, but you have to look at the big picture. Foles and Vick battled this summer. Vick outplayed him and won the job. Vick has played reasonably well this season. The offense bogged down vs KC, but that’s a great defense right now. The offense had scored 20 or more points in the other games. The offense had 430 or more yards in all games.

I get the idea to bench Vick and go with the young guy. There is definite logic in that. I don’t think you make that decision right now. I think you play Foles this week, assuming Vick won’t be back at 100 percent. At that point you would have 2.5 games worth of Foles to evaluate. You would have 4.5 games of Vick. You would have a more clear picture of who should start.

While Vick earned the job this summer, he didn’t get it forever. Vick didn’t struggle to the point where you needed to bench him. But in getting hurt, he opened the door for Foles to get on the field. Once that happens, you can’t ignore Foles performance.

Foles has a rating of 127.9 right now. He’s got 6 TDs and no INTs. Those are great numbers. Vick has a rating of 90.6. He’s got 5 TDs and 2 INTs. Those are good numbers.

Foles has benefited from playing against a pair of teams that don’t rush the passer well. San Diego didn’t either and Vick lit them up, throwing for 428 yards.

Dallas does a good job of rushing the passer so that will be a good test for Foles.

If Foles continues to put up great numbers, you have to play him. At that point, he’d have won the job. The situation becomes a lot more difficult if Foles struggles or even puts up solid numbers. That’s when you have to balance a lot of factors and make a tough decision.

I think we need to see what happens this week before we make any firm decisions.

This is a good situation. There are quite a few teams who don’t have any good QBs.

* * * * *

I didn’t realize this until looking over the numbers late last night.  Foles was great in the 2nd half. Check out these numbers.

6 for 7 – 145 yards – 2 TDs

Those are kinda decent, huh?

_


  • Jonzee72

    Tommy, why do you hate Matt Barkley?

    • Anders

      He is secretly hoping for GJ Kinne.

      • zbone95

        Damn you beat me to it loool

      • Andy124

        It’s not a secret.

    • TommyLawlor

      He didn’t invite me to his wedding. Or his honeymoon.

      • Mac

        About that… his wife must have put the wrong address on the envelope. I have some friends who are really good with costumes and makeup so I attended on your behalf (since I don’t have your address to forward the mail).

        Anyway, it wasn’t anything all that special: I sat next to Megan Fox, enjoyed prime rib crusted in funyuns, had a PBR beer helmet, and made multiple trips to the chocolate pudding fountain. I’m sure you had more fun that day.

        • TommyLawlor

          You are my enemy for eternity. Or until the Eagles win the SB.

        • A_T_G

          That was a wonderfully kind gesture to make sure the Barkleys did not see an empty seat at Tommy’s spot. And good idea not to mention the part with the cheerleaders and the pudding fountain at the end of the evening, Tommy might have been a little envious if you had. You are truly and man who puts others before himself.

          • Mac

            I appreciate your kind words!

      • Scott J

        Who wants to go to wedding that doesn’t have Funyuns or beer kegs?

  • Anders

    No matter what, I expect Kelly to make the right decision. He always did that at Oregon and has done a good job managing the situation so far.

  • RIP Worms

    Personally, I’m waiting for Brian Solomon to hash this thing out with a vickornick.com micro-blog. Of course, the ultimate result is that Matt Barkley would emerge as the long-term starter.

    • Always Hopeful

      Awesome.

  • Daniel Norman Richwine

    Still contend it matters less with Chip than most coaches who the QB is. Chip seems to have a gift which he has developed to an art of getting the most out of his QBs. We would all like to have Peyton Manning, but otherwise I’d rather have a coach who can get 435+ performwnceces week after week no matter who the QB seems to be.

    • Finlay Jones

      Yup, Kelly must be really pleased after yesterday. I just wish he had
      stuck to his “I don’t need a mobile QB” assertion, and jettisoned Vick.

      • Daniel Norman Richwine

        Vick has an arm, too. When Chip had to make his decision, he couldn’t know if Foles would be able to be effective, so he had to keep Vick, IMHO.
        Dallas should be interesting.

        • Finlay Jones

          Foles outplayed Vick last year, as a rookie, so there was
          some evidence to suggest Foles would be as effective. Taking off my hater glasses, I can see some logic in bringing him back. Kelly essentially gave Vick a clean slate. Unfortunately for us (from my perspective) vick went uncharasterstically accurate in the preseason. 13/15. Now he has reverted to his 50% career average. And is sub 40% the last 3 games iirc.

          Vick can be effective in the offense. Foles can be more effective, can improve more and going forward… who knows.

  • Finlay Jones

    Vick hasn’t scored more than 2 tds in 30 starts. Vick hasn’t had a
    passer rating as high as Foles last night in 35 starts. It is time.

    • Ben Hert

      I like Vick, and wish it had worked out for him, but this is a legitimate point:

      Vick hasn’t had a passer rating as high as Foles last night in 35 starts.

  • nicolajNN

    Heads up Tommy, third paragraph, second line, two words before Vick.

    I only wish that was the case, the other one would fit in well here. :)

    • TommyLawlor

      Fixed.

  • RobNE

    Off topic but I have to post: Peter King has the Eagles 14th in his Fine 15 and says “Finally some impact plays from DeSean Jackson”. what the ?!?!? If he would watch games other than the Patriots he might know a little more about the sport he allegedly covers. Maybe he only looks at TD’s scored, saw DJ got 2 and went with that….maybe next week he will say finally McCoy has started to play well.

    It’s like a car accident, I can’t help myself from reading MMQB but I always wonder how he got, or keeps, the gig.

    • ceedubya9

      DeSean is playing great right now. He’s even 2nd in receiving in the NFL right now if I saw things correctly.

    • Baloophi

      To be fair, it’s impossible to cover every NFL team AND your daughter’s lacrosse career.

    • SHough610

      Your mistake was reading Peter King and taking him seriously.

  • PeterAkkies

    What if, unlikely as it may be, Vick is 100% healthy this week? How does Kelly sell playing Foles to have another game to evaluate him?

    • ICDogg

      Foles has earned the start against Dallas. And my guess is that Vick will not be a problem getting on board with Foles becoming the starter should it come to that.

      • Iskar36

        I’m very curious how Vick would handle that. On one hand, I think for the most part, since being an Eagle, he has done a great job handling the media and being a team player. On the other hand though, he has never lost a competition with another QB. He got benched at the end of last year once he was healthy again, but at that point, the season was effectively over, and Vick really couldn’t argue that he was playing well and deserved to continue to start. This year however, Vick has done nothing to get demoted. Foles is the one that has done things in order to warrant the conversation of him starting over Vick or not. I can’t imagine a competitor like Vick not being very frustrated with that.

        With that being said, I do expect him to say most of the right things. The issue will be that every single media member is going to want to get the story that Vick is frustrated and build a major story out of it, so they will ask Vick questions constantly, many of them nearly impossible to answer without sounding frustrated (Sal Pal will certainly turn it into something regardless of if it exists or not). So even if Vick tries to say all the right things, it will be interesting to see how he manages to hide any legitimate frustration he may have.

    • Adam

      He just say’s that he doesn’t think Vick is 100%. A 33 year old QB with a history of injuries, you can sell a hammy taking a few weeks to get back. If Foles is a better passer but you play Vick because he’s a better athlete, than keeping a less than 100% percent Vick on the bench isn’t a hard sell.

      • ICDogg

        And Vick seemed like he’s ready to go along with that.

        I think though that the Dallas game will be a make-or-break opportunity for Foles to claim the starting job. If he is as effective against Dallas as he was against Tampa Bay, I don’t see how he doesn’t take over.

        Furthermore, it’s understandable that some will compare Foles to Kolb. But I think Foles just looks more in command than Kolb ever did, more confident. I think we just need to see if this performance was what we can expect from him, or if it was a mirage.

        • Adam

          One situation I’m worried about is if Vick does start against Dallas and feels like need to go out there and make a statement, then starts playing hero ball. Nothing good comes from Vick playing with something to prove.

          • Always Hopeful

            What comes of it is that he re-injures himself, Nick comes in and we what we got in the kid.

            We still don’t know what we have in Nick, but we have a better sense of what we have in Vick.

            There’s no way to combine the best attributes of both into one person is there?

          • A_T_G

            We should look into human grafting technology and intense couples counseling. One of them should provide the solution.

      • BlindChow

        Also, right now Vick’s game is all in his running. His passing stats have been dismal since KC. Assuming nothing else is wrong with him that’s affecting his accuracy, it would be better to make sure he can run at full strength/confidence when you stick him back in the lineup).

  • EaglesJRL

    You confused Casey and Clay Matthews, somewhere the football Gods are engaging in uncontrollable laughter!

    • ICDogg

      Speaking of Clay, his broken thumb injury is a lot more serious than it sounds. He could lose grip strength permanently if it doesn’t heal right, and for it to heal right it needs to be totally immobilized.

    • TommyLawlor

      I used to do that all the time. Probably a subliminal thing where I’m projecting my fantasy to have an impact rusher.

  • ICDogg

    I don’t know if it’s just me but the left side of the comments area seems to be cut off by the background of the web page. The avatars along the left are cut in half.

    • TommyLawlor

      Fine for me.

      Anyone else having this issue?

      • BC1968

        No, looks good.

      • ICDogg

        Probably just me then. I turned off the ad blocker so that shouldn’t be it.

        • Ben Hert

          For shame sir. Make an exception on ad-block for the PBR and Funyun king.

          • ICDogg

            already had.

          • Ben Hert

            Oh, I misread that, my bad. Apologies.

    • Baloophi

      Did you think Tommy had changed avatars to “bst ibbon”?

    • A_T_G

      I think that is because Tommy is clearly right-leaning in his comments. His bias is so intense that it literally skews the comments right out of the window.

      (I am not going to ascribe a QB to the right and the left. There are no winners in that conversation. Feel free to assume I meant the one that you don’t want to start. Many of you will anyway.)

  • bdbd20

    “I didn’t realize this until looking over the numbers late last night. Foles was great in the 2nd half. Check out these numbers.

    6 for 7 – 145 yards – 2 TDs

    Those are kinda decent, huh?”

    That equates to roughly 86-100, 28TD’s.

    Greatly below Chip’s standards. Stop coddling Foles, your journalistic integrity is at stake here.

    • TommyLawlor

      Great.

  • Greg M

    Tommy:

    While Vick’s numbers are good, they span 4.5 games — Nick’s state line was compiled in just 1.5 (plus some garbage time) games. Shouldn’t some weight be given to that? I understand Nick has played two winless teams, but I don’t think anyone can argue that the Bucs defense is good test for any quarterback.

    • TommyLawlor

      The Bucs defense was 8th in scoring and 13th in yds allowed. They are actually the 2nd best D we’ve faced.

      • BC1968

        I still think, that while the Bucs defense is really good, they are a bad team overall. That gets contagious after awhile and that starts to show up on both sides. Some things seemed to happen that seemed that were lazy, the Riley Cooper catch and pass, the inability for some reason to get to the QB in the 2nd half. Sitll, all in all, give Foles all the credit in the world against a talented defense. My assessment could be wrong, Vick may have been a disaster against the rush and threw some unwanted ints.

        • holeplug

          Bucs are a lot like last years Chiefs. They have some talent, esp on defense, but need a coach and a QB and they could easily be a playoff team next year.

        • A_T_G

          I would say that the Bucs defense is probably better than their stats because their offense is so terrible. It is harder for a defense to post impressive numbers when the offense gets extra chances.

  • CrackSammich

    No offense to your work, Tommy, but I really can’t wait to never have to read about Vick vs. Foles ever again. Maybe next season…?

    • TommyLawlor

      Honestly, I’m tired of it as well. I was hoping Vick would have a terrific season and the question would be filed away until January.

      • eagleyankfan

        almost as tired me reading your anti-Foles comments. It’s ok, like I said before, the Foles train is already full. Seriously — can you give him credit? This D he faced was playing amazing up this point. Foles picked them apart. And why (AGAIN) do we need to rate Vick AGAIN??? Has he proven anything different than last year? I know — I know — Vick is learning a new offense right? Um, isn’t Foles learning the same offense? (I know, we can ignore that fact). What exactly is the big picture to you? Let Vick play this year and worry about qb next year? Where’s the common sense in that? I get you’re a huge Vick fan. You’ve said before — unless Foles plays “lights out” Vick is the starter. Foles JUST played lights out and you’re back tracking.

        • TheRogerPodacter

          sarcasm?

        • BC1968

          Tommy’s reasonable, maybe you didn’t live through the Bobby Hoying era? Short as it was. He started Foles like, so come on now, Tommy likes to use the left part and right part of his brain.

          • ICDogg

            Hoying had that one great game against the Bengals. Boomer Esiason was one of the broadcasters and couldn’t rave about his performance enough. Looked like Hoying really was something. Turned out he wasn’t.

        • TommyLawlor

          @ eagleyankfan…

          How exactly do you have me as anti-Foles???

          • BC1968

            If you aren’t sucking, you aren’t loving :)

          • eagleyankfan

            by your comments/articles.

          • BC1968

            Not trying to cover for Tommy, but wtf are you reading? T

          • eagleyankfan

            see above… :).

          • Tumtum

            Did you know that Steinbrenner ate puppies, and Mark Teixeira was da deble?

          • laeagle

            You kind of have to read them, and have some form of reading comprehension abilities, before making such comments.

            I don’t know how you can look at an article where the author says, “here are Vick’s numbers and they’re good. Here are Foles’s numbers, and they’re great”, and POSSIBLY conclude that said author is anti-Foles. Unless you’re Nick’s mom. And even then.

            But of course, once one has made the poor decisions in life that lead to being a Yankees fan, I suppose anything is possible.

          • A_T_G

            See, he drew that conclusion because Tommy didn’t agree with his point of view.

            Didn’t you hear? If we disagree it means you are wrong. If it happens on the internet, you are wrong and I get to tell you so in a rude way.

          • laeagle

            Or, if you’re eagleyankfan/GEagle (the same person in my opinion), you get to say so in a rude way about 100 times, as well as in reply to your own posts.

          • GEAGLE

            Keep my name and nuts out your mouth…I got nutting to do with this…
            ..who the hell are you? And why do you even know me when you are so insignificant to me?

          • planetx1971

            I can’t help but laugh t-law & i hope you are too. I’ve seen you bashed of being anti-Vick so many times. Now you hate Foles. Must take alot of energy to be anti EVERYBODY. Ridiculous lol.

        • CrackSammich

          This is exactly the kind of thing I’m tired of reading. A fine bit of performance art to illustrate my point, sir.

        • Baloophi

          Sadly, there aren’t nearly enough ALL-CAPS and multiple ???’s for me to take this (argument?) seriously.

        • Weapon Y

          Tommy was actually in favor of letting Vick go last year. He’s about as objective as they come. He just wants what’s best for the Eagles, not the individual players.

  • BC1968

    I was defending Vick for the starting job, not because I do the I’m for one guy and I want to be right, because I truly thought he gave us a better chance to run an mind boggling offense. I guess that’s the word. For sure I’ve changed my mind somewhat about that because I don’t hate to admit when I’m wrong. I marry no one when It comes to Eagles’ players, unless it’s Dawkins, take me I’m yours. So there’s my opinion after the 6th game of the season. Liking Foles, but still we’ll see, I like to think that would be the reasonable approach.

  • Adam

    Tommy what are your thoughts on the Revis situation? See any similar dynamics to what happened in Philly with Nnamdi? Is it a case of a good player being used wrong, or is it simple a guy who has a lost a step (due to injury or age)?

    • Anders

      Revis is doing fine.

      The first Jackson TD, was a mistake by the safety and the other Revis wasnt on him and we exploited the zone defense

      • TheRogerPodacter

        to be fair, we did see a lot of nnamdi pointing fingers at the safety in his time here :P

        • Anders

          yea but NA was old and couldnt play zone. Revis is doing fine in zone, but its just sub optimal use of his skill set

          • TheRogerPodacter

            oh yea, i definitely agree with that much. Revis actually looked pretty good which is more than we could ever say about nnamdi….

        • BC1968

          I agree Roger, when I saw him in the back of the end zone looking around I was thinking uh oh could this be the beginning of the end? But I didn’t think uh oh…lol

        • Mac

          Is it also a function of who the other corner is on the team, and whether the opposing QB is wiling to throw his way?

          • Adam

            The talent on the other team should be a factor too. Eagles only have one legitimate threat at receiver. It would be different playing a team like Denver. But it feels more like a situation where Schiano is trying to outsmart everyone but he’s really just making himself look dumb.

          • Mac

            Also true

      • Andy124

        I don’t know if it was a mistake by the safety so much as Foles using a pump fake to influence him.

    • TommyLawlor

      The Bucs aren’t using Revis well. And Schiano isn’t helping matters. He rubs a lot of people the wrong way.

      • Adam

        Sad/Funny thing is I bet Revis was really excited to escape the circus of NY. Little did he know..

      • Baloophi

        …even Mrs. Schiano.

        Okay, that was uncalled for.

        • Crus57

          That’s what she said.

  • BC1968

    Tommy another thing, Foles seems that he has learned from Vick that when you’re going down you throw the ball up and hope for the best. That’s the Vick approach that I hope he can unlearn real quick. It isn’t a good approach unless you’re Brett Favre, and even then it wasn’t a good idea.

    • TheRogerPodacter

      yea i agree with you. one or two, i think i was ok with it as he really just threw the ball into the dirt a couple of yards in front of his receiver. thats not too different then doing the same when the defense correctly reads a screen. there were too many where he was just getting rid of it to get rid of it and it scared me.

      • BC1968

        Agreed with both of you, the one was more scary it didn’t go into the dirt it kind of sailed into no man’s land, but still, yeah he did a good job of making it uncatchable for everyone. Still, it’s a habit he should get rid of altogether and maybe it’s something he caught from watching Vick. Everything that the backup learns from the starter doesn’t always have to be good I would imagine.

    • Adam

      I saw several times that he threw it at the dirt as he was going to the ground. Thought they were heads up plays.

    • BlindChow

      Did he do that last year? I was thinking it had more to do with Kelly’s previously-noted stance on “sacks are the fault of the QB.”

      • Neil

        Yeah, he did. But for as many times as he’s done it, he seems to have an eery way of avoiding the catastrophes. Like Shady running with a football.

  • eagleyankfan

    so — let me get this straight — we’re giving excuses for when Foles plays very well(oh, now the TB D isn’t that good) and giving excuses to Vick when he doesn’t do so well(he’s played against GREAT defenses). Simply amazing.

    • TommyLawlor

      You’re being overly sensitive. I’m trying to put their performances into fair context. You can’t look at stats without comparing how they happened and who they happened against.

      • eagleyankfan

        Stats are blah. LOL. I don’t care about stats. I don’t care the Eagles have the most passing +rushing yards(after 5 games) in the history of the NFL. It means nothing. You can never compare two QB’s by different teams they’ve played against. TB would probably have had a different game plan for Vick if he played. By Foles success, I can’t say Vick would have done the same. What you can look at is their individual performance. Foles has played well enough to earn starts – even for a healthy Vick.

    • TommyLawlor

      Just so you know…there are plenty of people who think I’m anti-Vick.

      What I am is realistic. Both players are talented. Both players are flawed. The most ardent supporters for each guy overlook the flaws and obsess on the good stuff.

      My goal is to win a Super Bowl. I’m going to hold QBs to a high standard because my goal is to find one that can lead us to a SB. I don’t think Vick is that guy. I have reservations about Foles, but we haven’t seen enough to really know about him one way or the other.

      • eagleyankfan

        Here’s what I do know — Vick went down and you want to write an article on which QB to draft next year. If that isn’t anti-Foles, I don’t know what is.
        I think I’m fair in my opinion. I like Vick and I some of his throws are a thing of beauty. I don’t see an advantage to starting Vick. I’m not sure anybody can say that Vick gives us the best to chance to win anymore. Foles gives a valid chance as well. He has showed that he has command of this offense. He has yet to panic. I’m not “Foles is the all time answer” either. Give Foles a chance. Let’s find out this year if we want Foles next year.

        • BC1968

          Tommy’s sentiment is what a lot of people think. You know what kind of offense Chip wants to run? The kind where the qb can get out of the pocket and the play options. It’s just how it is. That’s Chip, it’s going to take a lot to convince him otherwise, so yeah, it’s likely that they are going to be searching for that kind of QB in the off season. It’s not Foles hating, it’s what Chip wants anyway. Unless Foles keeps this pace up, who knows. He played shitty against Dallas last year, this is a big test if he starts. I have a few things to say: Bobby Hoying. Bobby Hoying. Bobby Hoying. Bobby Hoying. Were you around then?

          • eagleyankfan

            around the message boards? No I was not. Was T-Law in support of him? I don’t see why not, he was promising. He didn’t pan out. Like Foles…Foles can be promising too. He might not pan out either. The point .. bottom line is … we don’t know. Why wait til next year to find out and do this all over again.

          • Ben Hert

            You don’t even need to go back to Hoying. You can at Kolb if you wanted. After the Chiefs and Saints game people were 100% ready to move on from McNabb and anoint Kolb as our hog-hunting QB overlord.

          • ztom6

            I wouldn’t say anyone but a handful is ready to “anoint” Foles. However there seems to be more to gain from letting him play some more right now than there is going back to Vick.

        • Ben Hert

          There’s a difference between being anti-Foles and not thinking he’s the guy who can lead us to a Superbowl. I know as a Yankees fan you only see in Black and White, but they do occasionally wear gray uniforms.

          Seriously though, enough with the persecution complex. You’re just as bad as the Vick blowhards.

          • Always Hopeful

            Amen, and amen.

      • A_T_G

        “What I am is realistic.”

        What you are is a butcher and a thief, posing as an In-Home-LASIK specialist and sunglasses salesman.

        I have sent you credit card information 3 times now and it seems to be working when I look at my statements. I am only going to send one or two more card’s info, then I am going to think you are trying to rip me off.

    • laeagle

      The fact that you’re expecting GEagle to restore sanity tells us everything we need to know. Oh, that and the 100 posts saying the same thing.

      • Dan

        Was thinking the exact same thing.

      • eagleyankfan

        you’d think it wouldn’t take that many posts for people to understand.

    • Ben Hert

      “Where is Geagle to restore sanity?”

      Wait, what?

  • mksp

    The locker room is really the big issue. Chip has done a nice job of building a culture in a short time, and seems to have really earned the respect of the players. Reading quotes post game from players and coaches alike has been a revelation. People are accountable, focused, and onboard with the process of building this team.

    How does Chip diplomatically bench the clear leader of this team (and on that note, I have to again say just how impressive Vick has been from this standpoint. Even his responses to questions yesterday were perfect)?

    I think the only way out of this is to work *with* Vick and the other leaders. Jason Peters, Kelce, Ryans, Avant –> Chip has to sit down with those guys and explain why he believes moving forward with Nick is the best thing for this franchise. Those guys *have* to be on the same page.

    I mentioned last week that trading Vick to Houston might be an elegant solution because I think Chip & Howie could sell it to Vick as an opportunity to go to the Super Bowl this year.

    I wonder if Chip is regretting bringing Vick back at this point. Though I do think his leadership has been an overwhelming positive during this transition period, and going forward Vick’s legacy in the Chip era will be remembered more for his work in the locker room than on the field. I’m not sure knowing what he knows now with how good Nick can be, Chip still wouldn’t want to bring Mike Vick back.

    I wish fans handled the QB debate as well as the two QBs themselves are. Both deserve a ton of credit for handling the situation as well as they have, at least to this point.

  • Mac

    To win or not to win (now) that is the question.

    In my opinion, the “win now” argument is shelved by making the switch to the 3-4 instead of following the historical precedent of Parcells and allowing the 4-3 to function in year one and giving yourself time to get 3-4 guys onto the roster.

    Having said all that… I think the decision should be based on this:

    Who can run Chip Kelly’s offense?

    My answer is leaning toward Foles at this point. Why? Because in it’s simplest form the offense is predicated on taking what the defense gives you. Read the defense, deliver the ball in a timely and accurate fashion. Would Kelly enjoy having a QB who can also torch a defense with his mobility? Of course. But that’s not the point. The point is to exploit match-ups, and it becomes even more important in the Red Zone, which is why I predict Foles will have more success in this system than Vick. I believe Foles height is a tangible asset that allows him to see and deliver the ball in a way that Vick can’t in a crowd, and the crowded area of the field is the area where points are scored and games are won or lost.

    I have enjoyed watching Vick play games, and will continue to enjoy watching him play. He loves the big play, and has the ability to make it happen, which is a blessing and a curse for him. He is more talented than Foles in almost every measurable aspect of being a QB, but at the end of the day I’m putting the ball in the (larger) hands of the QB who can make the best use of my skill players in the Red Zone.

    • deg0ey

      I agree with everything you’ve said here, with the caveat that I think Kelly has kinda painted himself into a corner with his methodology. He came in saying that there would be competition at every position and that the best guys would play. Given his status as a young HC that’s new to the league, I think he has to stand by that to avoid alienating players.

      What that means is that he needs to be able to point to tangible, concrete reasons that Foles is better than Vick or he risks creating a situation where players don’t believe that playing better football is enough anymore. There’s a chance he can make that case off of what we’ve already seen, but I’m not convinced. Another week of Nick playing at (or close to) the level of this weekend then I think it’ll be an easy sell, but the other players still like Vick and they might not be on board with benching him when he’s played well and the young guy has had one good game.

      • Mac

        Agree 100% we can’t make a change for the sake of making a change. Kelly needs to be able to show the players why he is making the change, and one game isn’t enough.

        I hope we get to see Foles this week, and I hope he can have success in the Red Zone. If he doesn’t start or doesn’t have success, then it’s almost certainly back to Vick (and that’s ok with me too).

    • Tumtum

      I agree with your basic premise. Though I don’t think height is the determining factor.

      I think they are both equally capable of running Chip’s offense. However, each is lacking in one important area of running the offense. Vick is a threat with his legs. Foles can throw guys open. Vick can make tough throws from time to time but is obviously struggling with it. Foles can run the ball, but boy is it ugly. I think you are right that Foles’ traits lend to better RZ efficiency. If for no other reason because in his PT this season the RZ offense has been effective, and has not been in Vicks.

      Keeping in mind the goal of winning now: I think you are probably just about as well off with one as you are the other. In that case you should probably keep Vick as your starter unless or until he deserves to lose the job. He won the job in the first place. That can not be discounted.

      That being said, I probably prefer Foles at this point. Looks like I don’t have it in me to be an NFL head coach! Oh well there is always Broadway.

  • Dave

    “Foles and Vick battled this summer. Vick outplayed him and won the job.”

    By most accounts of beat writers, bloggers, and other journalists at training camp, Foles was ahead in the battle for the QB job. Vick went 13 for 15 for 199 yards with 1 TD and 1 INT in the first 2 preaseason games. Foles went 11 for 14 for 96 yards with no TDs and 1 INT.

    So when you (and other writers) say that Vick outplayed him, you should preference that Vick outplayed him in two preseason games after both threw 14/15 passes.

    • eagleyankfan

      Dave — I’m 100% behind you here. Preseason — especially after very — VERY limited exposure to Chips new offense how can anybody(I don’t care how great Chip is/isn’t) pick a clear cut winner? Vick did NOT out play Foles. Chip already knew Vick was starting.

      • Dave

        I didn’t think that way until Vick admitted that he met with Kelly 3 times and Kelly had to convince him to sign for 1 more year. Vick then stated that he had to get Shady on board because Shady thought Kelly was “just a college coach”.

        Kelly admitted that Vick was named the starter because of his leadership and how he bought in with the weight training and conditioning program as well as his play. Some other blog wrote a peice this summer how Foles was up against Vick the football player and Vick the video game idol in the QB competition. How could Foles compete with that?

    • Neil

      Tommy isn’t making a statistical argument that Foles was outplayed. The playcalls for each QB were vastly different. Foles practically went the whole preseason without throwing downfield, while Vick put up the same statline almost only throwing downfield. That hasn’t carried over nearly as strongly to the playcalling when the games count, which is why there’s now debate.

      • Dave

        “The playcalls for each QB were vastly different.”

        Provide one source which proves the play calls are different. Chip, Shady, Desean, Kelce, and others have repeated said the offense is the same and the play calls are the same.

        • Neil

          The source is the film. The playcalls may have been the same, but the way the offense was run couldn’t have been more different. Foles never threw more than ten yards downfield, while Vick seldom threw shorter than that. And what I said only goes for the preseason. Watching Vick and Foles playing during the regular season, I agree that the offense doesn’t change a whole lot now for some reason. After two preseason games, Vick seemed superior in almost every way. Foles had thrown a pick and just been making checkdowns besides, while Vick had played mistakefree (the int didn’t come until after he had won the competition) and been throwing intermediate-deep extremely well. The stats don’t give you the same picture you get watching those games and seeing the throws each QB made. Combined with Vick’s physical talent, it wasn’t a difficult call to make, even for me who wanted to see Foles. Chip had to stand by his word and play the better QB.

          But with Foles coming in now and doing what he’s doing, none of that might matter.

    • Ben Hert

      So the beat writers and bloggers who sat 100 ft. away, watching drills out of context, with no film to review, or no knowledge of what the coaching staff was looking for, had a better idea who the better QB was in camp than the coaching staff did?

    • livingonapear

      And only because Nick Foles made 2 bad plays at the worst possible time. The pick in the endzone and the bad timeout with a favorable box (hehe).

      Before that, Foles tore down the field and ran a real option attack. His reads were spot on, his tempo was good, and he was decisive.

      Vick looked smoother and more explosive, so they went with him. He had the better game, and he deserved to win the job, but it wasn’t a guarantee the season win.

    • ztom6

      Foles was only ahead of Vick when they were running around in shorts. All those beat writers you mentioned were quick to note Vick seemed to be outplaying Foles when they were in full pads. Still, you’re right on the basic point that you can only learn so much from training camp and preseason when the margin between the two isn’t that large.

  • ACViking

    Re: What Do We Know After this Past Weekend

    Regardless of what happens the rest of the way this season . . .

    The Eagles will draft Johnny Manziel in May 2014 (assuming he’s not in jail).

    • mksp

      While Gus Bradley gets Marcus Mariota. Irony isn’t the right word. But its something. And I don’t like it.

      (Edit: I think Gus picks Mariota over Bridgewater. I’m standing by this call).

      This offseason is going to be interesting.

      • ACViking

        Luck of the draw, perhaps.

        And if you’re gearing up to be disappointed what happens in the May ’14 draft . . . you should have been around for the 1968 season and the ensuing draft.

        The Eagles were 0-11, with 3 to go, and winning the OJ Simpson sweepstakes. The the Eagles went out and won 2 of their last 3.

        Come draft time, the Eagles selected 3rd overall. To compound the historical indignity, the Eagles selected Heisman-runner up Leroy Keyes, RB from Purdue . . . passing on HOFer North Texas State DT Joe Greene (along with the likes of future All Pros like Ark State MLB Bill Bergey, Penn State TE Ted Kwalick, UGA DE Bill Stanfill, San Diego State DE Fred Dryer, HOF OLB from UMiami Ted Hendricks, Stanford WR Gene Washington, HOF CB from Missouri Roger Wehrli, Michigan RB Ron Johnson, and Yale RB Calvin Hill).

        On the flip side, look at that group: Bergey and Hendricks were 2nd Rd picks. Calvin Hill was the 24th pick, Wehrli at number 19.

        The drafts a crap-shoot. It just happens that 1969 was filled with talent — and the Eagles missed on 18 of 19 picks.

        Only 3rd Rd pick Bill Bradley from Texas made a mark in Philadelphia.

        Even worse though was the Eagles did with their 4th Rd pick: OG Bob Kuechenberg from Notre Dame. The Eagles cut him after training camp. He caught on with the Dolphins . . . played 14 years . . . made 6 Pro Bowls . . . 6x All Pro . . . and became maybe the best O-lineman who’s not in the Hall of Fame.

        • ICDogg

          That was the year we threw snowballs at Santa, and now you know why.

        • Baloophi

          We passed up Fred Dryer… a.k.a. Sgt. Rick Hunter????

      • Anders

        The smart money is still Bridgewater to Jags. Mariota is really good, but Bridgewater is much better passer.

        Its essential Luck vs RG3 all over again.

        • BlindChow

          I think speed-wise they are similar also. Bridgewater is a 4.6 40 guy, I believe, like Luck. Mariota is a burner.

        • mksp

          Agreed. Mariota’s upside may be too much to pass up for a forward thinking front office and coaching staff though.

          • ztom6

            mariota would be a terrible pick for the jags. He is nowhere near pro-ready. He’s a luxury pick for a team that expects to have him holding a clipboard for at least a year.

    • Stormbringer

      I think there will be a big run on QBs this year as a lot of teams are QB needy right now and there is a big selection of quality prospects. Sort of like the McNabb and Elway drafts (not saying any of these guys will be that good).

      Unless the Eagles start playing a lot worse (O can’t score as much, D stays as is or gets worse) and losing a lot more they aren’t going to draft high enough to get the really top guys (Bridgewater, Mariota, Hundley, Boyd) often mentioned as possible franchise QBs. Manziel is the one big name guy that might last due to his size, arm and off the field issues.

      I’m not entirely sure where to stand on Manziel. Saban thinks he’s the best QB he’s faced and he’s put up big numbers against everybody except Florida in his first game. But he seems to be Brees size (though they say he has mutant hands and feet they are so large) and while his arm is a little stronger than average it isn’t a cannon. I’ve watched some of his craziest plays and he seems to throw it up for grabs a bunch. That won’t work in the pros. Also, while he is incredibly elusive as a runner, I can’t imagine him being able to consistently juke NFL level defenders. Saban thinks he’s like a more athletic Flutie but Flutie was never that good in the NFL. That isn’t even going into those off the field issues…

      • BlindChow

        Manziel’s hands are so big, he could hold out two fists in front of you and you would be unable to guess which one held the football.

        • A_T_G

          Well, I think AC Viking’s fears are unfounded then. One clear take away from an earlier jury-themed event is that if you have big hands, you don’t go to jail.

          • Baloophi

            But if you do, good luck sneaking those mitts between the bars to steal a slumbering jailer’s keyring.

      • mksp

        I watched a little bit of Hundley this weekend and didn’t really like him. Really jerky motion, nervous feet, threw a lot of McNabb-esque balls with downward trajectory. Behind Bridgewater/Mariota/Boyd/Manziel for me, maybe Carr as well.

    • deg0ey

      As long as it’s no earlier than the 3rd round then I’d take that. Don’t see the hype with Manziel, though, he seems like a pretty mediocre QB to me.

  • ACViking

    Re: A Topical Request for the DGR

    Is the Eagles’ offensive scheme on pass plays susceptible to blitzing?

    Or is it a blocking-scheme issue with the O-linemen? The TEs? Or just an execution issue for the front 6.

    Or is the problem schematically with the RBs? Or just execution by the RBs

    Or is there no problem?

    • OregonDucker

      On pass plays there needs to be blitz recognition by several positions: QB, RB, OL, certain receivers (either/both a TE and WR). Any breakdown in recognition, in my opinion, makes it look like the QB is a dope. But in reality “dopiness” is a shared responsibility.

  • ACViking

    Re: 12 Angry Men

    Discussions around Vick v. Folk is reminding me of the different jurors on display in that movie.

    You have Juror No. 3 arguing for guilt — no matter what the facts are (Lee J. Cobb’s character).

    Then there’s Juror No. 4 (EG Marshall), who’s meticulous with the evidence — and despite the raging summer heat, never perspires . . . until his reason for finding guilt is undone by his own bad memory.

    How ’bout Juror No. 8 — the star of the movie (Henry Fonda). He’s level headed, objective, curious and thoughtful. He just keeps poking and prodding, asking hard questions, not taking any position except to say “it’s possible.”

    Finally, what about Juror No. 10 (Ed Begley, Sr.), the guy with the bad summer cold. His view of the evidence is informed by one of man’s most base instincts.

    All in all . . . watching the discussion on the Vick v. Foles question since yesterday’s game is like watching jury deliberations. There’s no “right” answer — only an answer 12 people can agree on. And there’s nothing easy about that.

    • TommyLawlor

      Great comparison.

    • TheRogerPodacter

      this is why i love igglesblitz. come for the football knowledge, stay for the movie references!

      • Always Hopeful

        Awesome movie still, after all these years.

        • Baloophi

          Right up there with Pauly Shore’s “Jury Duty” on the list of all-time greatest courtroom dramas.

          • Always Hopeful

            Right behind “My Cousin Vinny” :-)

  • eagleyankfan

    Hard to keep up with all the comments. I’ll wait for Geagle’s response as his opinion is biased and agrees with mine :). JK. I fail to see why Vick should start. If Foles wasn’t here and say Barkley was the back up, I’d be screaming for Vick to get healthy. If Foles was tossing 3 ints a game, I get it. I don’t think there’s any way to slice it that Foles deserves to start. He’s not back up Manning or Brady for crying out loud, he’s backing up a 1-3 starter…

    • bbbulka

      vick vs WAS + vick vs SD >>>>>>>>>>>> foles vs bucs ???

      • eagleyankfan

        I’m sorry — name the top 4 WORSE defense against the pass(you’ll find Wash/SD and Giants)… Now — go find top 10 defense vs. the pass — any guess on who you’ll find? (T-law pointed this out)

        • bbbulka

          I have not seen anything good from bucs defense.. and even giants D made more problems for us than tampa

      • Stephen Stempo

        i loved the Was game, but take off the rose colored glasses and see that the first half of that game was a shit storm of perfect circumstances

    • Baloophi

      The positive development for the blog in all of this back-and-forth is that we’ve now identified shah8’s evil twin…

      Possible avatars?

  • new coach

    I think the prudent move is to go with Foles. One of 3 things occurs:
    1) he plays great (or shows promise) and Chip is comfortable going forward with him
    2) He plays great, Chip realizes he isn’t ideal for our offense, and is traded for a high pick- Think if he plays well, a first rounder would be quite possible, With that pick, Chip can them move to the QB he needs
    3) He doesn’t do well and Chip knows all he needs to and finds a new QB

    Playing Vick doesn’t help the team going forward. It’s not about this year, it’s about the future

    • eagleyankfan

      I think that’s all the Foles supporters are saying. Nobody here is saying Foles is the next Brady. We know the need is for the future — and Vick is not it.

    • livingonapear

      Number 2 is the real intriguing one. Either get another first pick, or ensure that you move up to make your true pick.

      The only problem comes with next year’s preseason. You have a rookie like Mariotta or Bridgewater that would have to start. If you replace Vick, he’s not re-signing, so your choices are to have a rookie start and not give them a chance to develop, or Matt Barkley.

      How would the Eagles do if they finish this year on a relative high note (9-7, hang in a tough playoff game, 8-8 with a few close losses) if they lose the first 4 games to rookie growing pains? What if you trade away a steady hand (which Foles seems to be) for a QB that just can’t make the transition. A Tim Couch situation would really set us back.

      I want either Bridgewater or Mariotta last year, and if Foles can get us that, I say pull the trigger, but I will be a huge bundle of nerves going into the season.

      • Joseph Dubyk

        Fuck that…. If Foles lights it the fuck up why trade him?

        • livingonapear

          There is that. I mean I would love to see Mariotta run the option at the pro level, but if Foles is running the option and screen game as well as we saw in that Carolina game, while also chucking the ball like we saw yesterday, then that might as well be the Chip Kelly offense moving forward.

        • A_T_G

          I wasn’t sure I agreed with your argument until I got to the second “fuck.” That is what sold me.

          • A Roy

            I believe the correct quote is; “Fuck you, you fucking fuck.”

  • JulzPE

    I feel like now, in the middle of some pretty serious/brutal arguments about the QBs, is a good time to remind ourselves that Heath Evans said Chip could be the NFL’s worst ever hire. Makes me warm and fuzzy inside.

  • shah8

    Gonna be like this all week.

    • ACViking

      At some point, I believe a mis-trial will be declared.

      • shah8

        I got my vote in the envelope. Can I go home, now?

        • OregonDucker

          No you cannot go home. The judge declared a mistrial. Time for another trial to begin.

        • A Roy

          I vote for whomever can beat Dallas.

  • ACViking

    Re: Echos of Bobby Hoying?

    Bobby Hoying — a green shooting star in 1997 — was, in hind sight, the product of a brilliant offensive coordinator named John Gruden.

    Hoying’s star disappeared with the arrival of Dana Bible in ’98.

    In the meantime, Gruden took a pretty mediocre QB (but a great athlete) named Rich Gannon — from U-Delaware — and turned him into the NFL MVP and a SB QB.

    The point? Chip Kelly’s scheme is very good for QBs.

    Put Foles and Vick with the pass-happy Marty Mohrnenwig and you get something less than what we’re seeing this year.

    Put Tom Brady or Peyton Manning with Marty, and Marty would be a head coach again.

    • Always Hopeful

      This^^^^^^

    • Baloophi

      “Echos of Bobby Hoying”

      This sounds like either an underwhelming independent biopic starring Ian Ziering, or a lost issue of The Hardy Boys.

      • ACViking

        You’ve been red-hot today.

        You and LAEAGLE.

      • RIP Worms

        Ian Zeiring. Brilliant.

    • A Roy

      My recollection of Hoying is a little different. It seemed to me that as he got hit more, he was less successful. And it looked like it built up over several games to where he chucked and ducked ala Romo even when he didn’t have to. Sort of like what happened to Vick last season…a microcosm of which we saw in the NYfG game.

    • Stephen Stempo

      True there’s always the danger of false positives, but it’s not like the kid buried himself last year under andy and marty.

  • Corry

    I’m pretty much done with the whole Vick vs. Foles crap. Start a QB, win me some games (preferably ones that aren’t so stressful), and then draft the franchise guy soon (maybe not next year) so I don’t have to read about this crap for at least a few years..

    BTW, kudos to you Tommy. Everytime you write one of these articles you’re anti-Vick and anti-Foles at the same time. WHY DO YOU HATE THE EAGLES TOMMY?! WHY?!

    • eagleyankfan

      I have yet to see T-Law be anti-Vick. Why would he be? Vick is a good player. I’ve only been hear less than a year, but I haven’t seen him be anti-Vick.

      • Corry

        It’s a commentary on the comments in these articles. Depending on who’s comments you’re reading, he’s either anti-Vick or anti-Foles. I’ve seen it in his other posts.

      • TheRogerPodacter

        what Corry said. the QB talk really brings out the emotions of a very emotional fan base. we all try our best to keep it civil here…. saying things like “Kolb suxx” doesn’t really make for good football conversation!
        and by the way, welcome to the party!

  • cliff henny

    kelly has a couple easy out’s, play foles till vick is 100%. 33 and hammy, might be couple more weeks till injury goes away. foles will probably play well enough for bickering back and forth like we love to do(mostly cause kelly makes everyone look good) but not brady vs bledsoe hand over keys good. re-insert vick on short leash play him till he falters, out of playoff hunt or gets injured, whichever comes first, no one will blink at giving foles another look afterwards. vick does neither of the 3, foles’ own fault for not beating out lame duck 33 yr old qb in pre-season. then pray Marioti or Hundley fall to a range Eagles dont have to mortgage whole draft to get kelly his qb.

  • johhnyblaze

    Foles only did what a backup is supposed to do, and that’s manage until the starter returns, Vick hasn’t played poorly enough to lose his spot. Fact is that Kolb didn’t look good prior to getting injured.

    • Stephen Stempo

      if a 133 qb rating is managing i’d love to see what qualifies as excelling.

  • Mike Flick

    With Dallas’s d-line beat up, it may make more sense to play Vick.

    I really think they would have a harder time against Vick’s style than Foles because their strength is in the CBs.

    • Donald Kalinowski

      I thought Morris Claiborne was struggling this year?

      • Mike Flick

        They will put Carr on Desean. Claiborne will go on Cooper. With Scandrick in the slot. They might be reversed.

        But still Cooper + Avant vs Claiborne and Scandrick are not awesome matchups.

        Our o-line against a banged up Ware + Hatcher and pack of scrubs is our best advantage. Wear them out, and chasing Vick around should give us a better matchup than a more traditional drop back guy.

        • TheRogerPodacter

          plus, shady usually plays really well against dallas. all the more reason to run him!
          didn’t Bryce have a big game against dallas too?

          • fran35

            Not a big believer in Bryce anymore. The guy has run between the tackles three times in his life and fumbled all four

    • holeplug

      Their secondary is whats giving them trouble. Already allowed 3 QBs to throw for 400 yards against them this year. Monte is also trying to install his tampa 2 zone style so I doubt we’ll see the single high man defense that has given this offense some trouble.

      • Mike Flick

        Funny how that works. You play Denver and your secondary looks like crap. You play Washington and they look like All-pros.

  • Donald Kalinowski

    You 100% correct and I feel like this is the best argument I’ve read about this QB situation. In my mind I don’t see either guy being the QB of the future nor do I see this team contending for a championship in the next 1-2 years. I think the QB of the future will be in the 2014 or 2015 NFL draft. But if it were up to me, I’d start Foles to see if I can get a 2nd round pick for him :)

    • Cafone

      Of course Foles could be another Feeley or Kolb and you get more for him in trades by showing him off a bit, but you certainly don’t want to show him off too much ;)

      (don’t really think this, just making a joke)

  • Andy124

    C’mon Tommy! Time to embrace the new quarterback of our PHILADELPHIA EAGfoLES! :)

    • eagleyankfan

      That’s funny :).

  • nicolajNN

    It’s amazing how polarising QB1 Vs. QB2 comments get for some people. Take note of Tommy’s balanced post. There’s pros and cons to both these guys. One player isn’t the other clearly superior here.

    Another comment section observation: Those with very strong opinions either way rarely seem to be pro one guys, just very anti the other one. Someone wanting Foles to start doesn’t ague why he should start, just why Vick definitely should not

    • A_T_G

      I think your second point is a good indication that neither guy is THE answer at this point; one guy might be and the other guy might have been, but neither IS.

    • Ben Hert

      This is America, there is no rational, balanced conversation here. Have you seen our government?

      • Crus57

        Not recently?

    • Cafone

      Before the preseason, I thought Foles would win the job. Now, I think he will take it eventually and it’s mostly a matter of when.

      That said, I will feel bad for Vick when/if it happens. While he hasn’t always been perfect on the field, I have been consistently impressed with the way he’s carried himself and with the respect he commands from his teammates. I think many Eagles players have benefited from his example and are better players today because of it. He has been a credit to the organization and a validation of Reid and Luries’s decision to sign him.

    • eagleyankfan

      Than you have those who say — Start Foles to see what he can bring to the table(bigger sample). We already know what Vick can do. I don’t think that means I’m pro-Foles. I’m pro-“find our qb of the future”… :)

  • Cafone

    I don’t see how you can award the job to Foles over Vick after performances against two winless teams. I agree with Tommy that Dallas will be a better test. They may be far from a great team, but at least they’ve got 3 more wins than the Giants and Bucs combined.

    • BlindChow

      I agree about Dallas being a better test, but mostly because it’ll expand the sample size.

      Win-to-loss ratio of the opposing team is a weak indicator for QB play, as a team’s good defense might be hampered by a weak offense (Tampa) or their weak defense might be bailed out by a strong offense (Denver). The Cowboys’ defensive rankings are significantly lower than the Buccaneers’, but the former’s offense makes up for a lot of their shortcomings.

      And obviously, defensive (and special teams) failures would hardly be the fault of either QB.

    • eagleyankfan

      and you’re grading Vick over beating a team with 1 win? Yup, sounds fair.

      • Cafone

        fair point (yours)

        • eagleyankfan

          I just think it’s hard to compare qb’s vs. different teams. tough to do.

    • OregonDucker

      I think the coaches need to look closely at each QB’s metrics; i.e. the Chipper criteria for a successful QB. What are the differences between the QBs on time of release, accuracy, anticipation of receiver route, turnover rate, check-down efficiency, and general football IQ.

      My subjective observation is that Foles has exceeded Vick in most of these criteria. If you look closely at the winning catch in the Saints/Patriots game, you will see Brady place the ball on the back shoulder and high to the receiver in anticipation of the route spot. This was NOT a lazar to an open receiver but a beautifully placed anticipation throw – kinda like the Cooper touchdown by Foles.

      • Cafone

        I think many observers would have shared your subjective opinion after the preseason too. But Chip Kelly didn’t give the job to Foles then. Could it be that both QBs performed well and Kelly decided on Vick for reasons other than metrics, like leadership and the respect he commands from teammates? If so, perhaps that becomes less important as players gain confidence in Foles’ ability and Kelly’s system.

        • eagleyankfan

          But — I don’t think Chip or Foles lost the clubhouse by any stretch. I think the players back Foles just as much. Except Nate Allen. just kidding :).

  • Baloophi

    I’m not hearing enough discussion on the burgeoning emergency quarterback controversy. Will Jason Avant be a team player and sit quietly as James Casey handles that role?

    • A_T_G

      I am wondering if the Casey injury has been manufactured to give Avant an opportunity to win the job.

  • Cafone

    One of the most common arguments for playing Foles is “Vick is not the future so let’s see if Foles can be that guy.”

    While that is a very sound argument, I think maybe we should consider another possibility. Maybe Chip Kelly has already made that decision. He’s already seen around 10,000 times more of Foles than any fan has. Maybe he doesn’t really think he needs to see any more.

    Maybe he’s already sees Foles as the quarterback of the future, but thinks that Vick is the better starter now because of his leadership and he doesn’t think Foles loses anything by sitting behind Vick during his 2nd year in the league. Or maybe he has already made up his mind that he needs someone different than Foles to lead his offense and doesn’t think playing Foles now affects the future much either way.

    • Iskar36

      Not sure that really plays out though. Practice is valuable, but there simply isn’t anything that replaces in-game experience. If your plan is to have Foles as the quarterback of the future, getting the reps in-game right now will better prepare him for next season and beyond. Those are incredibly valuable reps.

    • BlindChow

      Or maybe he has already made up his mind that he needs someone different than Foles to lead his offense and doesn’t think playing Foles now affects the future much either way.

      If this is the case, it would make a lot of sense to play Vick for as long he was healthy, as my belief is Kelly would prefer a mobile QB. That way he gets to install his “Mobile QB Offense” so he can plug-and-play his draft pick (or whoever) next year, without having to retool the offense from a non-mobile guy this year. That is, assuming this was his reason for not playing Foles.

  • Iskar36

    This is completely off topic, but I think one of my growing favorite press conference “Chipisms” is how CK describes injuries:

    “Chris Polk has a shoulder.”

    “Mike Vick has a hamstring.”

    • BlindChow

      I have an off-topic observation, too!

      I like listening to the announcers calling Rams games, when they say stuff like, “Isaiah peed in the backfield.”

      • A_T_G

        Hopefully they never use him as a wildcat QB. Whether he was “under center” or “in the shotgun,” it would be bad news.

    • nicolajNN

      At least he’s being honest

      • A_T_G

        But it makes conspiracy theorist wonder, “Why just one?” He only mentions that Vick has one hamstring (conspiracy theorists do not care about Polk). Has the other one been removed? What was done with it? Was it surgically implanted into Matt Barkley? Was it put in his leg, or his arm?

        We deserve to know, dammit. If Michael Vick is going to be out until he grows a new hamstring, Matt Barkley is going to be unable to slide arms-first, and Avant/Casey are battling for the backup QB spot, Chip shouldn’t be hiding behind semantics.

  • SHough610

    Dallas is the best NFC team we’ve played. We should give Foles a chance and see how he does.

    • eagleyankfan

      I hear you(and others) saying that but… what are you looking for? Another 3 td’s and 1 rushing? What if Foles goes 10-15, 150 yards, no TD’s, eagles win 24-21? Or a 24-17 loss? 24-21 win, with 2 ints 2 td’s? That doesn’t mean Foles is or isn’t the QB of the future. I don’t think you can go game by game either. I don’t think Chip would ever draw a line in the sand and say Foles has to perform above that line in order to earn the starting gig.

      • SHough610

        It was less of a performance marker on Foles as much as saying, “even if Vick is healthy I think you put Foles out there to give him a shot.”

        • eagleyankfan

          again — it’s not play Foles because Vick is no good. Vick IS good. We know that. We know Vick can(and will) win games. What we don’t know is — the qb if the future. What we do know is — it’s not Vick.

          • SHough610

            And the point I was making originally was that you put Foles out there because he’s earned the right to have the shot. Tommy’s written about this before but I think Chip is in a perilous position: the NFC East is putrid enough that they can possibly make the playoffs so you have to try to win now but the Eagles need to be looking to the future.

          • TheRogerPodacter

            the qbotf reason is the biggest reason why i want them to go with Foles. we either find that he can be the guy for the future, or we find out that he can’t.
            or we find out he is good enough and we can focus on other areas right now. lol

      • ICDogg

        I’m not sure it’s quantifiable, what you’re looking for. I’m looking for a level of competence and a level of confidence. I want to see a guy who makes tough throws under fire while not making costly mistakes. I want to see a guy who does not get rattled. And that might be as specific as I can get. Results matter too, but they’re not all that matter.

  • BlindChow

    I must admit, my tolerance for Vick vs. Foles debates is much higher after a win. As far as I’m concerned, as long as we’re winning, the coach made the right choice.

    • eagleyankfan

      I gave you a vote of 1 – but I’m not sure if you can see it or even read this. :)

  • eagleyankfan

    week 7 — game for first place — who would have thunk it?

  • Joseph Dubyk

    Tommy I love you, but this is an aiwful article!!!!

    The situation isn’t tricky. In fact, it hasn’t been tricky since last year. Vick sucks as a QB and he has his enitre life. He’s been a mediocre passer AT BEST… THere’s no reason a 33 year old bum should be starting for this team, NONE WHAT SO EVER… He shouldn’t of been re-signed…Hrm…. Yes so complicated…The mediocre old guy on a rebuilding team or the young QB with major potential…. yeah so tricky!!!!

    • Insomniac

      Hey pal..remember Kevin Kolb? He played well for a few games too. Were you also on the Kolb train before it derailed in one year?

      • A_T_G

        Hey pal, remember Michael Vick? He played well for a few games too.

        (How is that for muddying the water?)

      • ztom6

        I remember lots of backup QBs who elbowed their way into being starters. Some went on to be great (Brady, Warner, Kaepernick, Steve Young) and some didn’t. But this isn’t a McNabb situation we have here. Vick was always going to be just a placeholder at the position until someone came along and took it from him. It’s not out of the question that Foles is that guy.

        • Insomniac

          I have no problem with Vick or Foles starting. I just can’t stand on how people are coming out of their holes and crucifying Vick for his “bad” play when Foles had one good game. I accept the facts. Foles has played teams that are combined 0-9. If Foles continues to play well then give him the job.

          • ztom6

            Focusing on records isn’t quite being objective either. We saw both Vick and Foles in the Giants game and it was Foles who looked better. The Bucs may be winless but their defense is good and Foles was legitimately impressive. Not saying he is the second coming but QB is and should be an open position going forward and he should have every opportunity to prove the TB game wasn’t a fluke.

    • Cafone

      I’m always amazed when Eagles fans, who suffered through 10+ years of McNabb worm burners, call Vick’s passing skills into question.

      • Joseph Dubyk

        Vick is 5 for 19 for 38 yards with one TD and a 57.1 passer rating in
        the red zone this year. That’s a 26 percent completion percentage.

        yeah how DARE I question his passing abilities.. He has always sucked as a passer

  • BlindChow

    From ESPN:

    The Ravens are averaging 72.7 yards rushing per game, which is the sixth-worst in the NFL. It’s the lowest rushing total after six games in the six-year John Harbaugh era, and it’s not even close.

    WTF Juan?!

  • eagleyankfan

    one mystery solved — Foles didn’t make an audible to call his own number for the td run, Chip said it was a call ready to made no matter who the qb was. That’s scouting!! Well done.

  • Pennguino

    Thanks for the article Tommy. I think you did a really good job on 95 percent of the article trying to be neutral for each QB. The only misleading information is in the paragraph “That is logical, but you have to look at the big picture…” Just the way it reads, it doesn’t give any credit that Foles was neck and neck with Vick in the competition. Ultimately Vick edged him out.

    The second part of that paragraph is setup by stating “Vick has played reasonably well this season.” Then you mention that the offense has scored 20 or more points in the other games. Though technically that is a true statement, it would lead a reader to think the the offense has scored those amount of points under Vick’s stewardship. Which is inaccurate. Foles accounted for a third of those points in Denver.

    I think Foles should get the start for the rest of the season unless he has a three game stretch that is just gawd awful. I would have more leniency with a second year player than a decade + vet based on what Vick has shown.

    Vick won the competition. I don’t deny that. Has Vick ever played that way in his career the way he played this preseason? No he hasn’t. He was off the charts. He had something like a 97% completion percentage. He was lights out. But, Nick Foles was hanging right there with him moving the ball at will.

    Now, when there are no vanilla defenses and all the drive count and the real bullets are flying, he looks nothing like preseason. 53.8% completion. 4 Turn overs. One of them in the red zone. Two of them going for 6 points the opposite way.

    The number one stat in football is points scored. Forget the offense, the defense, wins, losses, fumbles, interceptions. What can your offense do when you have the ball?

    Vick: 54 drives, 49 net drives (Kelce/Avant FUM, End of Half/game kneel down)

    TD: 22%, FG: 20%, SCORE: 43%, TO: 8%, Missed FG: 6%, POS TO: 12% (When the other team turns it over giving you an extra drive), PPD: 2.18 (Points per Drive)

    Foles: 22 drives, 19 net (McCoy FUM, End of Half/Game kneel down)

    TD: 37%, FG: 16%, SCORE: 53%, TO: 0%, Missed FG: 0%, POS TO: 21% (When the other team turns it over giving you an extra drive), PPD: 3.05 (Points per Drive)

    That’s almost 1 point per drive. 13 drives per average a game and you are talking almost 2 TOUCH DOWNS per game. Forget everything else. Who scores the most? That is the number one question.

    If you are worried about the small sample size I will spot you the WAS AND the SD games. Foles still is best in TD%, Scoring %, and PPD%. Vick even has a higher POS TO% by 2 points. Go back even further for a larger sample to last year. Foles offense scored more PPG than Vicks offense. If you take out all the turn overs by the QB’s, Vick’s offense had a +5 TO ratio and Foles’ offense had a -5 TO ratio. Meaning Vick had 10 more drives to score points.

  • Vick or Nick

    You can make an argument for Micheal Vick.
    -more dynamic, more experienced, can’t lose job to injury, played well so far

    You can make an argument for Nick Foles.
    -near perfect performance, younger, future, need to see more of him.

    But the bottom line is the bottom line. Worry about that stuff later. Give Foles another shot. If he LEADS the team to a win, give him the job. Dallas will be a tough match up for us and I don’t expect a 71% completion, 4 total TD performance. It may end up a tight game. But if Foles continues to make good decisions, moves the team, and SCORES IN THE RED ZONE you can’t ignore that. Don’t fix something that’s not broken.

  • BobSmith77

    Trade Vick for a pick?

    • germs33

      yes maybe while we’re at it we can trade all our other things that have no value for things of value. repeat until left with no things that have no value.

      • BobSmith77

        How does Vick have no value right now? His injury status definitely puts a bit of a damper on his value but I do wonder what he could get the Eagles if they moved him.

        Likely one of those cases where he would only get the Eagles a mid-round pick (3rd-5th) which would be conditional. Still take that but the Eagles appear dead set on trying to win this year.

        • germs33

          lol mid round pick. if teams wanted mike vick he would have gotten more than $3.5 M guaranteed

          • BobSmith77

            You don’t think a team in need of a QB (Houston) wouldn’t give up a 5th round pick for Vick at this point?

          • Cafone

            Maybe… but a 5th round pick for a half season rental? He’s a free agent this offseason.

            Or are you proposing that a team would work out a long term deal with Vick as a condition to a trade?

          • germs33

            no team in need of a qb is going to give up draft picks to get a 33 year old qb that might be good enough to win them games, thus making it less likely that they can draft qb of the future

          • BlindChow

            Injuries can change the equation.

  • Baloophi

    Strategy for Dallas? Keep the ball away from Dwayne Harris at all costs.

    In other words: Don’t punt, don’t kickoff.

    Obviously we’ll have to kickoff once – if Henery can’t kick it into the stands behind the end zone we should just eat the out-of-bounds penalty.

    This also means we’ll have to do all of our scoring with safeties, so the goal for the offense should be to get the ball as close as possible to the goal line without actually crossing it. We should plan on taking a lot of knees on 4th down inside their 5 yard line to give our defense a better chance at the safety.

  • shah8

    So I was going through the moaning and groaning of the day after getting shattered by the Carolina Panthers, and one of the main line of comments were about how the trio of Xavier Rhodes, Corderelle Patterson, and Sharif Floyd has contributed little to the game yesterday, and the season in general. As part of the discussion of all the draft picks given up for the pick for Patterson and the resulting lack of depth. So I got to thinking, “Surely Patterson has contributed to the game?”, go over to ESPN and look up the stats, and I’m like, WTF? Patterson has just three targets, and got like three yards, total. In comparison, Joe Webb, that QB I love to tout, playing WR, has *four* targets for 24 yards total.

    How on Earth does that happen? Webb is getting by on raw physical talent at WR, since he’s about as much a WR as Tannehill is (and not really someone like Hines Ward). He can’t be running great routes (I watched the Eagles game and not this one, correctly assuming Cassel’s fate). How in all the hells is Webb being put out into the game, getting his named called, and producing more than Patterson? Patterson can’t be *less* refined than Webb, surely? Even if he came into the league just as raw, how does this coaching staff not figure out a way to get the ball in his hands with space to play on a regular basis?

    Times like these, even with some of Kelly’s brainfarts so far this season, it’s sort of easy to tip your hat off to him. Kelly is getting production out of the people he *should* be getting production from.

  • Scott J

    I heard Westbrook talk about how Foles didn’t win the game, the Bucs defense gave away the game. Foles will never get credit and Vick will always get excuses.

    • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

      Foles played a great game BUT Tampa Bay’s defense did NOT live up to the hype. There were blown coverages, missed tackles and guys open all over the damn place. Foles took advantage of all of that.

      SO while I don’t necessarily agree with Westbrook’s take on Foles not winning the game…the Bucs vaunted defense definitely did NOT show up Sunday.

      • Andy124

        Can you imagine if Vick had played and put up just 24 (still a season high against the Bucs), throwing for 2, running for 1 with no turnovers, on the Bucs team that had held Brady and Brees to 23 an 18 respectively… Then Token comes in and says, “Yeah, the Bucs D really wasn’t that good, in fact, they’re pretty crappy, and Vick only did well because they played zone instead of man. They practically gave it to him. Oh yeah, and MRSA.”

        My god, heads would explode. What would your reaction be to a post like that?

        • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

          Isn’t that what folk say about Wash and San Diego?

          Didn’t Tony Romo just play a great game against Wash? Didn’t Wash defense play a bad game?

          The idea that Foles played a good game and Tampa played a bad game aren’t mutually exclusive.

        • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

          “and Vick only did well because they played zone instead of man.”

          Yeah. Didn’t say that.

      • Jerry Goldstein

        You’ve chosen your side already now fuck off. If you’re still around after vick is gone i’ll be extremely surprised.

        • http://abigbuttandasmile.com/ A Big Butt and a Smile

          lol. I’ve chosen “my” side?

          Says the guy who told me to “fuck off.”

  • GEAGLE

    Why couldn’t Drew Brees or Brady play that well against a team that couldn’t rush the passer?

    Vick won the job in August? TRUE! Problem with that is we are dealing with a young kid who works hard. There is a chance FOles is much better today then he was in August…there is a good chance he will be better in December then he was yesterday…especially considering he isn’t just young and inexperienced, he is also getting comfortable in a brand new offense….so excuse me, but I really don’t care that Vick squeezed past a kid and won the job 3 months ago….
    ..
    The defense V ick played against that best compares to Tampa, was the KC game…not a great outing for Vick. FOles is an actually QB…You know? The guy that is supposed to throw the ball. Vicks saving grace was that he made our run game better….that went out the window yesterday when Shady had a big day against a defense that hasn’t been run on Iike that since they faced AP 13 games ago…surprise surprise, the great Shady and the brilliant Chip didn’t need Vick to run the ball..

    FOles plays with timing, Rythm, spreads the ball around and gets guys into the flow of the game…Vick is NOT a good QB. He is a good QB when we run the ball, but his offense has very little flow. he is just a big play hitter. Sometimes he makes enough big plays to overcome for the rest of his game, other times he doesn’t….QB should make everyone around you better. Don’t tell me that Vick makes the Oline better, idont tell me that he makes the WR look better…he makes shady look better, but the other 9 players are more valuable when FOles is in the game….

    That was the best offensive game we played all year, and it came against the second best defense we played all year…and it came from an inexperienced kid, with one weeks worth of first team reps….it’s insanity for anyone to actually want to see Vick again….until FOles loses, you can’t screw with the hot hand…when FOles loses a game, and you want to go back to Mike on a shortened leash, Fine….but you don’t screw with the Hot hand, not while FOles is playing so lights out…..The ONLY reason Mike sees the field again this year is because he is a class act, and Chip wants to give him a chance before he ruins his career…Mike will get back in the game at some point, play a game or two, and then Chip will go back to FOles the rest of these way…why. Because FOLES is a better QB!!! now if FOles and Vick want to compete for RB or punt returner! then I’d go with Mike…

    This year should have been about finding out who FOles is….Now that finding out who he is, will also prove to give us the best chance to win it’s a friggin NO BRAINER!!!

    I’d don’t want to hear about how FOles beat the crappy backs…FOles played and shredded a top defense whether you like it or not…our defense faced what makes the Bucs crappy. So if people want to talk about how bad the Bucs are, do that on a defensive thread…I’m not trying to hear that BS in a FOles thread….FOles with one weeks worth of practice, provided the best QB game we saw all year, and he destroyed a defense that Brees and Brady struggled with in the past month

    • eagleyankfan

      Whoa whoa whoa — you mean — Brees and Brady had issues — but when Foles was successful, it was because of TB breakdown?