Is Foles Different?

Posted: November 20th, 2013 | Author: | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 173 Comments »

One of the discussions that came out of the previous post was how to separate Nick Foles from previous young Eagles QBs Kevin Kolb and AJ Feeley.

Let’s start with the most obvious thing. Kolb started 7 games as an Eagle. Feeley started 7 games as an Eagle. Kolb never started more than 3 games in a row. Feeley started 5 in a row as a rookie.

Foles has already started 11 games. He started 6 consecutive games last year. He has started 3 games in a row and 5 of the last 6 this year. We’re getting a bigger sample size from Foles. The decision that Jeffrey Lurie, Howie Roseman and Chip Kelly make on Foles in January will be better informed than any decision made on Feeley or Kolb. There will be less of a projection.

And the performance aspect isn’t even close.

Player Games Starts W-L TDs INTs QB Rating
Kolb 19 7 3-4 11 14 73.2
Feeley 12 7 4-3 16 14 78.6
Foles 15 11 5-6 22 5 97.6

We do need to acknowledge there are some circumstances at play. Foles has better skill players than Feeley did. Foles has a better OL than Kolb did. Last year when Foles had lesser skill players and a crappy OL, he put up lesser numbers. The flip side is that he was playing as a rookie, which the other guys didn’t really do.

In terms of skills, Kolb was the best athlete of the trio. Feeley had the best arm. Foles has the best combination of mechanics and pocket presence. Kolb did not handle pressure well. Feeley was fine there, but had too much of a gunslinger mentality. Instead of asking why he asked “why not?”.

Neither Kolb nor Feeley ever came close to leading the league in passer rating. The production we’re seeing from Foles is on a whole other level. Chip Kelly’s offense has been a big help to Foles, but the other guys usually played in a somewhat balanced attack. Feeley and Kolb each had 2 games with 36 or more pass attempts. Andy Reid dialed things back for them to protect the young QBs.

As a starter, Kolb led the Eagles to a pair of 30-point games. Feeley did it just once. Foles has already done it 3 times. Foles is the only one to produce 40 or more points.

If you just go by the eye test, Foles is clearly the best of the trio. The TD pass to Celek in the Giants game was a great throw. Sunday’s pass to Shady down the sideline was a tough throw. Foles uses pump fakes and eye movement better than the other two did. Foles moves better in the pocket and throws better on the run. He’s also run for 165 yards and 3 TDs as an Eagle. Feeley and Kolb combined for 96 yards and 1 TD.

Someone asked the question of why certain Eagles fans are so hesitant to fully buy in on Foles. The Eagles have been blessed with some great talent at QB over the years, but things never pan out as hoped. Randall Cunningham was more focused on being a star than a star QB. Donovan McNabb did turn out to be a franchise QB, but he never could get to the Brady/Manning level. Kolb was supposed to be the QB of the future and that didn’t work out. Michael Vick was a revelation in 2010 and has mostly disappointed since then.

Whether it is Foles, Kelly’s offense or blind luck, you cannot ignore the numbers that Foles and the offense are putting up right now. This is beyond anything we’ve seen from a young QB. This feels a bit like Vick and the run he had in 2010. That proved to be fool’s gold. The challenge for Foles and Kelly is to show that this is real and sustainable.

_


  • http://iKillRats.com/ Charlie Kelly

    “why certain Eagles fans are so hesitant to fully buy in on Foles” I can tell you, its because in college he didnt win many games, he was a 3rd rounder and he didnt win many games when he started as a rookie. Thats pretty much where all the hesitation came from.

    • TommyLawlor

      That too.

    • ICDogg

      True. Who among us didn’t think “WTF” when he was drafted?

      • deg0ey

        Agreed. I actually really liked him coming out of school, but it was definitely a WTF that they picked him so early.

        Did you ever play that pre-draft game they have on BGN, where you have to predict which player the Eagles will draft with each pick? I hit on three players that year, but I had us taking Boykin in the second round and Foles in the fifth. When they took Nick in the third I was just ‘okay, now Boykin definitely won’t be there!’

        With hindsight, it seems like they played it perfectly.

    • eagleyankfan

      I think part of it is they are Vick supporters. What Vick use to be capable is pretty amazing so it’s always hard to like the “new” guy to replace the old guy.

      • ICDogg

        I think it just takes a little longer to be convincing, when the differences in athletic ability are that stark.

    • xlGmanlx

      I dare you to make more sense!

      • http://iKillRats.com/ Charlie Kelly

        i dare u to learn how to read

  • Sean

    It goes beyond his pedigree and record. Even his most ardent supporter would have to admit that he’s not exactly blessed with great physical attributes, other than height.

    • http://iKillRats.com/ Charlie Kelly

      hes got a good arm and is very fluid when moving esp at 6’6 250 pounds.

      • Sean

        Exactly, he has a ‘good’ arm and surprises with his movement skills occasionally. He doesn’t possess anywhere near the physical tools of a guy like Cam, Rodgers, or even Luck.

        • TommyLawlor

          To be fair, Rodgers didn’t look nearly this gifted at Cal.

          • Sean

            No, but he has since his debut as a starter in the NFL. On a sidenote, it’s amazing that he and Cam might be the two most gifted QBs in the league, and yet they both had to start out at junior colleges.

          • theycallmerob

            As a college counselor in a HS, I can tell you that there seems to be an inverse correlation between athletic talent and academic success, particulary in the inner city. I’ve sent 1 football player straight to a 4yr school in my time here. Some even have the grades, but can’t navigate the NCAA bullsh!t

          • Jason

            Cam started at Florida, can’t remember why he left.

    • ICDogg

      And his relative lack of arm strength *could be* a problem on a cold, windy December day. I say *could be* because I don’t really know how he will adjust to that, but he can’t put up floaters in those conditions.

      • anon

        hope he’s more Tom Brady and Peyton Manning.

        • deg0ey

          If you go and have a look at the analysis Brent’s been doing over at EaglesRewind, you’ll notice that Brady actually seems to be the closest statistical comparison for Foles at the moment. Whether it lasts or not is up for discussion, but it’s interesting nonetheless.

          One thing Nick does have over Tom, though, is that he’s prepared to run it in from the 4 yard line if all the defenders get out of his way rather than just throwing it away and looking for a receiver on the next play. :-)

          • shah8

            No. Brady is an underratted scrambler. Check out that gif of him juking Urhlacher. Brady is not fast, or agile, but he is definitely more of an agile runner than Foles. Scrambling and QB runs outside of short zones is just not his game, though. If he had to run Fole’s offense, as a young guy, he would almost certainly be better at the QB rush part.

          • deg0ey

            I thought the little smiley face would’ve made it clear that part wasn’t entirely serious. And even if the comment /was/ serious, it made no reference to how capable Brady is as a scrambler, merely that he’s (understandably) quite reluctant to do so since his knee injury.

          • shah8

            oops

          • deg0ey

            No worries – blog comments aren’t exactly the best medium for conveying/identifying tone.

    • Mike Flick

      When I hear blessed with great physical attributes I think Ryan Leaf.

      That guy had it all, I was in the draft him over Peyton camp. Size, arm strength, quick release, college production.

      When the pressure of the league got to him, he imploded.

      Watch some of the Cosell videos talking about QB. He uses terms like anticipation, creating functional space, decision making. Those are skills that Foles seems to thrive in but hard to quantify.

    • Weapon Y

      Neither is Peyton Manning

      • Sean

        Agreed, but we should remember that his arm was much stronger before the neck surgeries. He is proof that a QB can rise above less than ideal physical gifts, but he is kind of the exception that proves the rule. He is soooo much better in every other dimension than almost every QB, and that’s why he succeeds.

  • OregonDucker

    Tommy, I think the mistake most fans make, including myself, is a fixation on physical attributes and top tier success in college. To understand Foles, we need to understand where he came from and what he did there: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1849932-tracing-nick-foles-path-from-texas-to-the-top-spot-on-phillys-qb-depth-chart

    Foles also is credited by his coaches as being very smart and with a high Football IQ. See article above. I believe these qualities are what is making the difference.

    I also think we are shortchanging his success now. See http://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/11/nick-foles-eagles-stats-peyton-manning-records/

    Lastly, the guy’s jersey is already in Canton. You cannot ignore that amazing, stupendous accomplishment.

    • http://iKillRats.com/ Charlie Kelly

      its awesome his jersey is in canton and next to peytons none the less lol…. if anyone says foles isnt the guy all ya gotta do is link this pic LOL

    • knighn

      Great reads. Thank you!

    • Mac

      My hypothetical quote on Andy Reid re: why did you pass the ball so many times with rookie QB Foles? “We saw some things (in practice).”

      I doubt Foles’ ceiling is as high with Andy as it is with Chip, but Foles is a gamer. He seems to see the field well, and makes good decisions. Personally, I don’t think you should ask for much more than that out of a QB.

  • Insomniac

    Hey Tommy, I would love to hear your opinion on Mike Evans.

    The more I watch Evans play the more I feel it’s Manziels ability to throw accurately and drag out plays that allows Evans to get his yards. There’s usually just the safety and the CB to beat when everyone is trying to stop Manziel from scrambling. At the college level, Evans is going to get separation but I don’t feel like he has that extra gear to go the extra mile in the NFL.

    • ceedubya9

      Interesting thought. I remember when watching his most recent highlights that he didn’t look very explosive to me, but seemed to have good body control and an ability to use his size to his advantage. Would I take him if he is the bpa for the team in the draft? Absolutely. But I definitely wouldn’t reach for him if there are better options available. Cooper, and at some point, Ertz should be able to fill the role that Evans would likely have on the team. I’d definitely want Sammy Watkins though, no doubt.

    • BlindChow

      I feel the opposite. A lot of Manziel’s epic scrambles result in him just throwing up the ball in Evans’ general direction, with Evans jumping up and out-muscling everyone else to come down with it. I think a good deal of Manziel’s success is directly attributable to Evans.

      That isn’t to say Evans could perform like that at the NFL level. Most college teams don’t have NFL-caliber defensive backs.

      • Insomniac

        When your OL can give you about 10 seconds to throw and your QB can buy another 5 seconds then you better be getting open. That won’t happen in the NFL. Manziel isn’t always heaving it up for Evans. As much as I hate Manziel’s guts, he mostly throws good anticipated passes that hit Evans in stride or only gives him the chance to catch the ball.

      • shah8

        Well, what do you think of the aspect of the Eagles offense that has Foles making deliberately underthrown passes for Cooper to get? Same thing, no? Underthrowing to a big guy reduces the need for downfield accuracy.

  • ICDogg

    I think it’s part of the Philly sports fan mentality that we tend to expect something to go wrong even when things are right. To me the origin of that is the epic collapse of the 1964 Phillies but for all I know it goes back even further.

    • TommyLawlor

      Probably some truth to this.

    • Dominik

      For me, it’s more of a situation where I don’t want to believe too fast. When you watch the NFL, there are always those guys who are the next sensation and everything. The next year, they look average (sometimes better than that, sometimes even worse).

      But for me, there has to go something wrong for Foles not to be our QB in 2014. I just don’t want to go further than that (Franchise QB, for example). Foles can play even one or two bad games for the rest of the season, imho, as long as there isn’t a Dallas game for the rest of the way. He showed enough to be our starter next year. Hopefully, even more than that, but it’s too early to say that.

      Look at how bad the Falcons, Ravens and the Steelers are this year. That comes when you give a giant contract to (very) good, but not overwhelmingly great QBs. If you don’t want to talk about Franchise QB you shouldn’t talk about the big contracts, but I’m scared of them. Brady, Manning, Rodgers and Brees – those four earn every penny of their 20 million/year (or something like that) contract. But those are the only QBs worth that much money, imho. They make the players around them better in almost every way. Not many QBs can do that.

      On the plus side of the contract situation: say what you want about Roseman, but he knows how to manage the cap.

  • SteveH

    If Foles was a heralded high first rounder, he’d already be anointed (to borrow a Bill Parcellsian word) as the next great young quarterback, both in the local and national media. Seriously, imagine if Geno Smith (who has started almost as many games as Foles) was putting up Foles’ numbers? He’d be headlining everything right now. The NY Post would be screaming to the heavens that he might end up being one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time. But since Foles is a mid round guy who wasn’t highly touted or talked about coming out of college, and has a fairly unsexy play style (awkward runner, mediocre arm) people are hesitant to buy in with him.

    Conversely you look at guys like say Cam Newton, who has really struggled at times, but because he was such a big story coming out of college, with his superior athletic ability, rocket arm, bigtime pedigree, a “name” player so to speak, if he struggles he’s given a huge pass because its been preordained that he is a star quarterback. Just using Cam as an example because he was on the tube last night, but there are plenty of other high draft picks who haven’t amounted to much who aren’t in danger of being benched or who have to prove themselves at a ridiculous level in order to finally secure the job.

    If Bengals fans (and the media at large) can buy into Andy Dalton being a franchise quarterback (despite his at times atrocious play) then I don’t know why Foles can’t get the same treatment.

    And you know as soon as Foles struggles the questions are going to pop up again, is Foles the guy, should he start, etc. Unsexy mid rounders don’t get nearly the same length of rope that the early round guys get.

    • ICDogg

      I see all that as a good thing, oddly enough. No one is about to allow any of this to go to his head, and it strengthens his resolve to continue performing at his highest level.

      • SteveH

        I agree it probably is a good thing.

        • Michael Jorden

          It’s a good thing so long as they use it to keep him sharp and well grounded. Not so much if they actually believe it and trade him away for a draft mystery. **not that I at all think that will happen**

    • anon

      I mean he was a back up that was OK last year + he had the Dallas game. None of the backups that are playing well are getting much love, but honestly who cares. The national media is completely wrong about our team but we’re showing and proving on offense and defense. People starting to wonder about the eagles and why we are manhandling teams on both sides of the ball.

      • anon

        Also i wonder what the record is for interceptions in the end zone. Boykin has 2 in two games. We have the second best red zone defense over the last 3-4 games. Oh what a difference a season makes.

      • Michael Jorden

        I thought he played better than just OK given his circumstances. Rookie starts with a gaping back-filled OL, mostly no Shady or DeSean, horrid DEF, and Andy insisting that he chuck it constantly. He did very well in my opinion. And as Tommy pointed out, it was an experience that seems to be working for him now. Totally agree that the national media does not get much about this team at all.

    • Mike Flick

      That is true at some levels, but usually guys are 1st rounders for a reason.

      Cam Newton has a body of work in college. People saw him take an Auburn team on his back and win the national title.

      Rodgers is a good example, he dropped in the draft because he was a system QB from a gimmick offense. He didn’t look good in his limited opportunities for the first few years. It was only after a year or two did people start giving him props.

      Patience. If Foles keeps it up, he will get the same treatment.

      • jshort

        Gruden liked Foles in the qb camp show he did. Has he said anything of late, that anyone has seen? know he watches tons of film.

        • anon

          who doesn’t gruden like…ever?

          • P_P_K

            I like his qb show but I don’t like him as an announcer.

    • aub32

      Then how do you explain Russel Wilson? He was also a 3rd round pick, and fans and the media seemed pretty ok with buying into him. Despite Dalton’s play recently, he has gone to the playoffs the past 2 years. So there is reason behind buying into him. I think too many are getting swept away into thinking Foles has done more than he has. A 3 game win streak against bad teams does not make someone a franchise QB, no matter how high the QB rating. He still has to prove himself to be the franchise guy that he never showed to be in college or last year.

      Cam Newton earned his equity in college. Then he burst onto the pro scene setting rookie records. So of course he was bought into. Foles just needs to continue proving himself on the field to earn the pedigree that others already have. Then he can have a bad performance and people will dismiss it as him having an off game or being in a slump.

      • Andy124

        Good thing he’s played more than 3 games.

        • aub32

          Yes and prior to those three 3 games people were ready to ship him off to Abu Dhabi after his stinker in Dallas. So it’s not like fans were buying him as the franchise guy before the three game stretch I was referring to.

      • OregonDucker

        aub32 – It’s easy to fall in the trap of QB performance level and notoriety in college. Cam had a very strong supporting cast in a big time college football program. Foles did not have the luxury of a top tier, BIG offensive line and a very good backfield.

        Yet, Chip saw the “greatness” in Foles who made a real impression on him. Competitiveness (throwing with opposite arm in one situation), high Football IQ, and strong QB fundamentals. Chip saw the potential in Foles and that’s why he’s on the Eagles. From where I sit, Chip was right.

        • shah8

          No, Cameron Newton did not have a strong offense around him. He had a good one, but nothing like L. James. He didn’t have great receivers, and his OL was about the SEC norm.

          And no, Cameron Newton has not ever actually been underperforming. He has basically had one six game bad stretch in his young career, while performing through quite a bit of situational adversity. Where Matt Ryan deflates without having a stacked offense around him, Newton keeps the train running, for the most part. The result has been a pretty stacked defense that’s young, and only a difference maker in the secondary away from being the Ravens. While the Falcons have had few drafts for the defense, and let talent go for the sake of the offense.

          • ACViking

            I think you’re spot on.

            Only 5 players from that 2010 Auburn team — other than Newton — were selected in the 2011, 2012, 2013 NFL drafts. (2 OTs, 2 DTs, 1 DE) The only notable rookie free agent from Auburn since 2010 has been LB Daren Bates, who made the Rams this year.

            Auburn was an 8-5 team in 2009, the year before Newton.

            The Tigers were 8-5 in 2011, the year after Newton.

            And 3-9 just two seasons after CM left AL.

        • ACViking

          OD:

          I think your point about competitiveness can’t be underestimated.

          No question, the NFL is full of hyper-competitive guys. You don’t get there and stay there on talent alone.

          But there’s a certain kind of competitiveness that, in my opinion, can elevate a players’ performance.

          Brady, DBrees, Ray Lewis — those guys are uber-competitive. Not necessarily the most talented on the field. But the best.

          Between football IQ and that refusal to fold, you can turn a pretty good football player into a great performer.
          _______________

          That said, I’m still hoping we get to see Foles in a some 4th-Q situations where it’s on him to win the game.

          Twice we saw it under Reid: Foles threw the winning TD against TB; and the winning TD against the Redskins (only to have Evan Moore drop the pass).

          Hard to blame Foles for racking up so many points early that a 4th Q desperation drive’s unnecessary.
          _______________

          When the playoffs roll around, the defenses get better. I hope we get to see some IQ and ultra-competitiveness from him turn into Ws.

    • Donald Kalinowski

      Speaking of the Panthers- Their offense is soooo boring. It’s all about winning the time of possession. You have a QB talented like Cam Newton and you’re going to make him into a game manager? ugh.

  • ICDogg

    For Vick, it only takes a few plays to be impressed by his physical skills. It takes a lot longer to be impressed by Foles, whose highlight reel would be nowhere near as impressive looking.

    • A Roy

      If his arm was a little stronger and his feet were a bit faster, I’d be sold. I’m almost sold as it is, and I would expect he can still improve his arm strength somewhat. Unless he tanks a couple times in the next 5 weeks, I’m puttin in my order for a 1st round stud OLB or shutdown CB..

      • ICDogg

        It’s hard to say right now, but I think Foles’ arm might be just strong enough. He’s not going to have that super elite arm to throw deep frozen ropes but he’s not weak-armed either.

        • A Roy

          I agree to an extent, but my perception is that to reach the SB, there’s at least one time where a game winner has to be thrown in a tight window and I don’t think I’ve seen that skill from him yet.

    • eagleyankfan

      ditto for Vick’s int’s and bad decisions…

  • ICDogg

    Rushing yards with Eagles:

    Foles: 165
    Kolb: 64

    • shah8

      Kolb was in another offense, and frankly, a lot of Kolb’s runs were bad decisions. Most of Foles’ runs are a matter of scheme. Kolb is a *much* better runner than Foles.

      • ICDogg

        Especially when running backwards.

  • ICDogg

    Erin Andrews interviews #WonderFoles http://t.co/LGd4Rguzt1— Mike Kaye (@mike_e_kaye) November 20, 2013

  • http://iKillRats.com/ Charlie Kelly

    sal pal was saying that chip needs to stop foles running the ball. (might i add i hate sal pal, and he always trys to make some grandiose point that is always highly flawed, and you can tell as he trys to sway people that he doesnt even belive it himself and that he just trying to stir the waters up for exposure(did i say i hate sal pal yet? oh i did)) Foles running the ball is keeping the defense honest and helping lesean.

    the only thing i worry about is when foles gets caught and he doesnt go down and he is fighting for yards and other tacklers come over and throw him to the ground (happened vs redskins and thats how he got his concussion vs cowturds)

    Its like hes so tall that when he gets slammed like that, his head has a further way down and just whips against the turf. as long as he isnt getting caught like that im good with it.

    And foles can slide by the way, we have seen it before.

    • P_P_K

      As soon as I read “sal pal was saying…” I knew the next couple minutes of my life were going to be wasted.

      This about Sal, CK, not about you.

  • Daniel Norman Richwine

    Pocket presence is a real thing.

    • eagleyankfan

      Amen!!!

    • P_P_K

      Agreed. I wonder how coaches evaluate such an intangible.

      • aub32

        Watching film

      • BlindChow

        Pocket Simulator 2.0

  • Insomniac

    Besides Foles progression, another unheralded player needs more attention. Cedric Thornton is top 5 in tackles for a defensive linemen (I believe). He might not be getting sacks but man he controls the line of scrimmage damn well. He;ll be a RFA next year and is earning a new contract the way he is playing.

    Some past notes from Tommy on Ced

    “THORNTON — Has some quickness off the ball. Pushed Moffitt back on run play, then got tangled up and fell down. Really fought to get through a double team and put some pressure on the QB on a pass play. Just missed getting Kaepernick for TFL on QB draw. Showed real good burst off the ball on that play. There was a series in the late 3rd when you could literally see him a 1/2 step quicker off the ball than anyone else. Really impressive burst.

    I’m sure Washburn loves his initial quickness. Where Thornton needs work is what to do once he’s gotten penetration. I didn’t see particularly good closing speed or playmaking skills from him. The skills can be developed. You either have closing speed or you don’t. That’s the difference in sacks and pressures. I think Thornton probably projects to NT, but that’s a guess. He’s so young and raw that he could look significantly different this summer. Guys like him can change quite a bit once they master the scheme and hone their technique. Having a great coach like Washburn makes a big difference.

    I love Thornton’s potential, but because of his background I’m not counting on him for 2012. He’s a wildcard to me.”

    • ICDogg

      Interesting parallel because it’s a similar situation. Thornton was unheralded and I think most fans coming into this season thought of him as a stopgap, if that.

  • bdbd20

    Hey Tommy,

    Just curious about the amount of “arm strength” an NFL QB needs to be successful.

    I’ve seen many reporters rank Nick as a 7 out of 10. Where does this compare to Brady, Manning , and Brees? Also, how much can this improve with time and off-season work?

    • anon

      He and Peyton have the same arm strength. I’d rate it Brees, Brady, Manning. But it can get better in the offseason — maybe some technique changes to get more torque or something to increase his distance. We’ll see how it works when it gets cold.

    • ICDogg

      I think maybe a little more core strength could add a little snap to his throws, but that’s just speculation.

      • bdbd20

        So the Jared Lorenzen off-season conditioning program is out of the question?

        • ICDogg

          Well, if he wants to do that, we have Wing Bowl right here in town.

  • knighn

    This is one of the most kick-ass articles to ever kick an ass!
    Eagles fans remain in your debt, Tommy!

    • P_P_K

      Right on. A very fair evaluation of all three guys.

  • eagleyankfan

    “Kelly’s offense” — interesting. There have been numerous articles about Kelly and his college QB’s and how he was successful with pretty much all of them. Could be the case here. I think it’s a mix of all 3 of Foles/Kelly’s O and magic :).

  • ICDogg

    Interesting article about Foles having been pushed aside for Matt Scott

    http://www.csnphilly.com/football-philadelphia-eagles/conventional-foles-was-slighted-once

    • ICDogg

      Interesting question from that article:

      If the 2012 class were redrafted today, what are the odds that Ryan Tannehill, Brandon Weeden and Brock Osweiler would be picked ahead of Foles?

      • shah8

        Brandon Weeden would not be picked over Foles for aptitude reasons. The others still will be picked over Foles.

        • A Roy

          Tannehill has 14 TDs and 11 INTs, 2474 yards and an 81.5 rating in 10 starts..
          Gee, on stats alone, I can see why you might pick him over Foles. He’s averaging almost 250 yards per game.

          • shah8

            I’m not missing the absolute friendliness of this offense. Anyone who’s able to mentally function at NFL speeds, not Ponder, not Gabbert, and can throw an accurate pass, not Locker, can succeed in this offense. Tannehill, for example, does not have Foles’ pocket presence. However, he’s both a better passer and a better runner than Foles, no question.

          • A Roy

            Tannehill may be a better thrower, but Foles passing looks pretty good. Scheme alone can’t account for a difference in QB rating of 46 points. As far as running goes, Tannehill is 2.7 yds/carry and a 1st down percentage of 30. Foles averages 3.8 YPC and is 33%. Not enough difference to pick one over the other as a runner, but Foles is certainly favorable.

  • Noah D.

    I think someone like Blaine Gabbert is worth consideration when talking about the whole size/speed/arm strength vs. football IQ and pocket presence dichotomy. Gabbert has total superstar talent, 1st round pedigree, and combine metrics that would make Al Davis shit his pants. I loved the guy…then I saw him play at Mizzou. He is the Anti-Foles.
    Even with a 6’4″ frame, Cutler/Stafford caliber arm, and 4.62 speed (atop model looks and conditioner-commercial quality golden locks), the dude just had no idea how to handle a pocket or command an offense. He could escape and run and make plays due to the god-given stuff, but simply lacked “it.”

    Foles has “it.”

    • bill

      Yep. As I mentioned in an earlier thread, too many obsess over physical attributes and make silly statements like arm strength + mobility = potential great NFL quarterback. To me, NFL level passers are more akin to baseball batters. Yes, you need some minimum level of coordination/athleticism to be a MLB-level hitter. But the more important part is that pattern recognition that becomes subconscious decision-making. It’s part innate and part repetitions. Good-to-great batters have a subconscious reaction to the armslot/spin on the ball/kick/a million other factors that lets them know the pitch in time to make a quality swing at it. If they have to consciously think about all these factors, even Jamie Moyers’s fastball would be by them. Similarly, the good-to-great NFL passers all have that ability to subconsciously recognize the pattern presented by the movement of defensive players in a micro-second and their body reacts without thinking about it. If you have to think about it, the play has already passed you by.
      For every time someone talks about Schaub, or Dalton, or the like, I could name 20 busts that had fantastic athleticism. It’s really just nowhere as simplistic as some make it out to be. Sure, if you’re comparing between 2 guys that don’t have the pattern recognition ability, you’d prefer the athlete because he might still grade out as a functional starter in the league despite his limitations as a passer. But the pattern recognition ability is far more important, so long as the guy has at least functional-level arm-strength – that ability seems much harder to find or “coach up” than arm-strength.

  • aub32

    I know for me the skepticism isn’t so much the comparison to Kolb or Feely, but guys like Schaub, Dalton, and Cassle. Schaub is a stats guy. He has put up some really good numbers over the years and made the playoffs with the help of a really good RB and stout defense. However, he doesn’t do anything “special” that gives his team an edge when playing competition that equal or better than his team. Dalton is a guy that is just limited physically. He’s not terrible, but can he go blow for blow with the better offenses when he lacks the ability to get the ball downfield consistently or make the throws in the tighter windows that we see in January. I bring up Cassle because he was a clear product of the system the Pats ran. He went 11-5 in that system. However, despite winning, the position clearly could be upgraded. For me to be sold on Foles, I have to see him overcome teams that are better than the Eagles but Foles is able to elevate the talent.

    • Dominik

      “For me to be sold on Foles, I have to see him overcome teams that are
      better than the Eagles but Foles is able to elevate the talent.”

      That’s very much to ask for. When we are talking Franchise QB and 100 million Dollar contract – I’m with you. But for the starting job next year you can’t have expectations like that. Foles is a young player worth developing. And then you evaluate where he is and if he can turn into a consistently special player. Because this year, make no mistake about that, he is special. The numbers are too good to point to the schedule, that’s special. Consistency is obviously the key here.

      • ICDogg

        Speaking of the schedule, it was pointed out at ESPN that 4 of the 5 teams remaining on the Eagles schedule are, at this point in time, ranked within 2 places up or down of the Eagles on their Power Rankings. That is, we’ll be playing teams that are perceived to be of approximately the same quality as the Eagles, other than our game vs the Vikings.

        I think this is an excellent chance to get a more precise view of where the Eagles are in the food chain, so to speak.

      • aub32

        I really don’t think it’s that much to ask for when many are claiming him to be our “franchise QB”. Foles has already proven he should start in this league. I will not argue that point. The debate is whether or not the Eagles should forego looking for a QB this offseason. That is a huge decision. If we pass on someone with the potential to be “special”, then think of how that will look years down the road when we all think what could have been if we had not bough into Fooles gold.

        • Dominik

          I think it’s pretty easy: if it turns out Foles isn’t our guy, draft a QB next year. Or the year after that. I see no hurry, there will always be talented QBs out there.

          Foles gave me, at this point, enough reason to believe he should be our guy next year. Therefore we should invest our resources in other areas. Simple as that.

          Sure, maybe it turns out we’re wasting our time with Foles, but as long as it is an educated opinion we’re having about him and that opinion is positive, you never know in this league if you’ll be right or wrong.

  • ChipWagoneer

    re: why some haven’t fully bought in.

    I think it’s as simple as when you look at the legit franchise QBs we’ve had over the years they have had major WOW factor. Cunningham, McNabb, and Vick.

    Foles is starting to make us say WOW on the field, but he still doesn’t have that WOW factor. And I don’t think he’s going to be getting on a boat with some hot pop star anytime soon either…

    • ICDogg

      Yep, pretty much what I’ve been trying to say.

    • JJ_Cake

      Nor do we want him wasting his time with celebs. I was happy with Vick over Mcnabb during the press conferences. Mcnabb was such a me first type of person, Vick showed humility and leadership. Foles is one notch better, everything mike gave us plus a passion for the game and his team. The Sky is the limit with Nick.

      • Donald Kalinowski

        I hate this comment so much. Such a narrow minded perception.

        • JJ_Cake

          Sorry to burst your bubble Donnie, but I’m glad you brought it up because I almost forgot what a sensitive cry baby you were. #your_pal_TO

    • ICDogg

      And I think it will get to the point, if it hasn’t already, where Foles’ doubters (of which I have been until recently) will need to come up with a reason better than “you’re just not the type of guy we had in mind to be our franchise quarterback” .

    • OregonDucker

      I see your point ChipWagoneer but 7 TDs in one game and NO interceptions to date constitute WOW to me.

  • Donald Kalinowski

    Two things remain to be seen:

    1. Guys like Kurt Warner, Ben Roethelsberger, and Aaron Rodgers can play really well in their own way despite having shitty performances from their offensive lines. When pressure is bearing down Foles’ neck will he be able to get the pass off quickly and accurately to his WRs?

    2. Can Nick Foles win in a shootout? If the Eagles play an elite offense like the Broncos or the Saints they will need Nick Foles to match the production of Brees and Manning. He will basically have to score on every drive.

    These two things will determine if Foles is an elite QB or just an above average one.

    • ICDogg

      Indications are that he handles pressure well. However, the 2nd question is TBD.

      • aub32

        It’s not hard to handle pressure when you’re only getting it a couple times a game. I think the question was asking how Foles handles being under duress over the course of an entire game.

        • cliff henny

          cant hold having a good line against him. kelly place emphasis on line, no reason to think it wont continue. manning becomes average when you hit him, brady too.

          • aub32

            No one is holding it against him. I was just trying to clarify. Regardless, there will come a day where the O line is just getting beat (likely in the playoffs) It’d be nice to know that the QB stands tough instead of wilts under pressure.

          • cliff henny

            ok, but that’s how NE beat manning all the time. great qbs become mediocre quick fast and in a hurry when getting pressure. this notion that qbs stare down the barrel of hits and deliver over and over doesnt really happen. they all get rattled. now, one hit shouldnt rattle them, seeing ghosts, like kolb ended up doing. foles seems to see blitzes and make hot reads, like the brees brady mannings of the nfl do, which is nice.
            .
            we chatted enough, you know i’m not sold on foles, but based on where eagles will be drafting and foles play, think getting him weapons and growing another yr with kelly is the way to go. his arm strength is still my concern. he will play alot of late season important games in the northeast elements, arm strength matters.

        • Jernst

          No QB in history handles being under duress throughout a game well…

          • aub32

            That’s not true. Have you seen the other starting QB in the same state. Ben is great under pressure. That’s why the team hasn’t invested much into his O line. Luck does very well despite a bad O line. So does Rodgers.

  • JJ_Cake

    I’m an Eagle fan first and an AZ guy second. I felt Foles had enough from last year to start, but Vick had a slightly better preseason and deserved the start. Vick got hurt and started looking like he did back last year. Foles stepped up and looked great.

    The biggest issue for me is the Dallas game. It was so bad that I think concerns about Nick handling the job were valid. We have never been given an explanation for why he was so off in that game. Was it an injury, or was it mental. I’m starting to think it was mental, and Chip had to instill some confidence in Nick. Grip it and Rip it. Foles praising Chips life lessons outside of being a great coach.

    Remember, Foles is a young guy. If he can keep his confidence and health, he can help lead this team to great victories. I think the comparisons to Tom Brady are pretty spot on. Foles is a winner through his decision making and playing with the talented players on this Eagle O.

  • ACViking

    Re: AJ Feeley, 5th Rd 2001 Draft

    T-Law:

    You wrote, “Feeley started 5 in a row as a rookie.”

    I think Feeley made those 5 starts in his second season of 2002 — after McNabb broke his ankle against the Cardinals and Detmer mangled elbow on MNF against the 49ers.

    Here’s Feeley’s career stats:
    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FeelA.00.htm

  • austinfan

    As I pointed out in the last thread, Foles’ improvement at the end of last season, under really trying circumstances, is in some ways more reliable than his performance this year, which has been inflated by a QB friendly system that DCs are still learning to counter and some weak defensive opponents.

    Last four games he was throwing it up 40+ times a game, and played at a level which would make him around 12th or so among starting QBs – that as a rookie with only a couple games experience before that stretch. He dramatically improved his mechanics on the long ball in the offseason, showing it first in camp and then when he got into games. So he’s solidified his showing from last year by demonstrating both a solid work ethic and the ability to absorb coaching and translate it to the field.

    I don’t take his performance this year seriously in that it’s probably unsustainable, unless the Eagles have hit the jackpot and landed the next Brady, Warner or Romo. However, I think Foles’ now has a large enough sample to make him a credible top 10 QB in the NFL. The only question is how much further can he improve, and we won’t know the answer until 2017, most elite QBs make their big jump around their 5th season in the NFL.

    • ICDogg

      We’ve seen Foles now in a bad situation with a banged up team and we’ve seen him in a good situation with a relatively healthy team. I don’t think anyone believes that Foles, without a lot of other things going right for the team, is going to lead us to the promised land. But I am at the point where I believe that Foles is good enough that the best way to get where we want to go is to dedicate resources to those other things rather than look for the perfect prototype QB.

      • austinfan

        A better question is whether it is possible, without the #1 pick in the draft, to draft a better QB than Foles. Looking at all the QBs drafted the last three years, who has outperformed Foles? Maybe Luck, but he’s been a bit inconsistent, Wilson looks good in Seattle, but that’s a very QB friendly offense, and as his offensive line has struggled, so has his performance.

        Point is Foles may not be an “elite” QB, but if he continues to improve, he may be as good as Eli, Big Ben, Flacco, Romo and Ryan, one notch below Peyton, Brady, Rodgers and Brees. And that’s about as good as you’re gonna draft unless you get really lucky.

        • ICDogg

          Well, yeah. And I think there’s a pretty good chance the Eagles make the playoffs this year, and that would have us drafting around 22 or 23 even if we’re one and done.

          • A Roy

            32 teams. 12 make palyoffs. Absolute highest pick would be #20. That’s us unless an 8-8 team gets in or we win a game.

          • ICDogg

            I was told there would be no math.:)

        • cliff henny

          with less than ideal weapons. respect avant, but no way he’s kelly picture perfect slot. cooper is beasting it, but there’s some serious talent coming out in draft i’d love to see push him back to #3/#4 wr. plus, celek, he may be good blocker still, but not much in rec’g department. ertz, the tri-mester bs annoys me to no end, i cant wait to see him these last 5 games. just saying, by next yr at this time, kelly could/should/probably will have foles surrounded with some sick-ass weapons.

        • aub32

          Kaep got to the SB. Let me say that again. Kaep took his team to the SB. Russell Wilson hasn’t lost a home game in 2 years and has the best record in the NFL. Luck broke rookie QB records and took the worst team in the league to double digit wins and a playoff berth. This season he has beaten the Seahawks and the Broncos with a bad O line and no running game. Cam Newtob just beat and outplayed Brady.

          I love what Foles has done, but let’s not forget where we were only a month ago. He’s had a really nice win streak against 3 bad teams. Can we please stop going overboard?

          • bill

            Meh, could just as easily say Kap’s team took him to the SB, and Wilson’s definitely not even the primary reason why Seattle is winning. Either of those two on the Eagles would not be having nearly the same success as they’re having, and I would argue, would be less successful than Foles has been this year. Obviously, no way to prove it, but Kap really struggles with reads, and Wilson has a very limited amount put on his plate. Not saying that Foles is top 10 or anything, but I think people have gone way overboard on Kap and Wilson fanboi-ism. Still not convinced that any of the 3 can consistently get it done when the pressure’s on.

          • aub32

            I take it you only watch the Eagles if you are not sold on Wilson. He has been very, very good this year. However, maybe you will feel differently when he beats Brees to finally win over the people who aren’t sold on QBs with mobility.
            ….
            I think you’re forgetting that Kaep has no one to throw to this year. Boldin was done last year during the regular season and like Flacco had a great playoff performance. Crabtree has yet to see the field and Davis has been in and out of the lineup. .
            ….
            You must be too busy drinking the Foles Koolaid to pay attention to other teams.

          • ACViking

            RE: No Receivers

            McNabb made a living out of having no receivers.

            Was the Eagles’ defense good then? Yep — just like SF.

            Anyway, I’ll take Russell Wilson over Kaep at this point.

          • bill

            No Koolaid drinking here. I admit I haven’t seen much of Wilson this year, but what I saw, and what the stats said, about Wilson last year was that he only used the right half of the field, that he was generally not called upon to win games, but merely to make a play or two a game while letting the rest of the talent win.
            Kap was put in very favorable position, especially since teams had limited tape on him. Now that they’ve gotten that tape, his limitations are becoming more and more obvious. And even with the injuries, SF is clearly one of the most talented teams in the league. Kap has far less on his plate than Foles does in terms of what he has to do get his team to win games.
            Sorry, but being a doubter of two (three! But for some reason you’ll ignore this too…) QBs who haven’t proven anything yet other than they can have a hot streak surrounded by a superior team does not make one a Kool-Aid drinker; something you should already know from our previous conversations where I’ve clearly criticized Foles on many issues, and even more explicitly stated that I’m not sold on him yet. But, for some reason, you keep responding to straw man positions that I have clearly disclaimed. Almost as if you have an ulterior motive, or perhaps hurt feelings about your favorite player?

          • shah8

            RW has had four game winning drives this year. NF has had zero. Nick Foles has never had remotely the sort of game that RW had against Houston–keep going, even when things are FUBAR with him overthrowing, and the passing game not really working in general, and lead a comeback, even as he has had zero TDs. Same with TB. And in general, this is when he’s had to make play after play to keep critical drives alive. NF just ain’t on RW’s planet, despite all the TDs. Pretending otherwise just makes you look like a delusional mook. Even a casual look at highlights makes for a clear seperation.

          • Neil

            Foles is 4-1 this year. Who knows what would have happened if he was the day 1 starter. We probably wouldn’t have 1 loss, but our team around him is nowhere near SF and SEA, AND Foles is in his first year in this offensive system.

          • aub32

            Foles is 4-1 with the D not giving up more than 21 points. Let’s not act like that was the case at the beginning of the season. Some of you are drunk on Foles-aid. There’s no guarantee he would have put up more than 33 on the Chagers. Are you suggesting he would have beat the Broncos or the Chiefs? So I guess Foles just lost against Dallas because???? The teams Foles beat this season are a combined 14-26 and not a single one of them has a winning record. We wouldn’t have one loss??? Foles loss a game that he started. Wow. Just wow.

          • BlindChow

            I read that as “we probably wouldn’t only have one loss,” ie., we’d have more than one, unlike Wilson in Seattle.

          • Neil

            Point taken on our defense, but we’ve also been scoring more than 30 points per game minus Dallas. The rest of what you wrote…why are you getting so upset? I don’t think it’s as clearcut as you make it that Foles has been outperformed by those other young QBs, that’s all. I think we definitely could beat a team like the Chiefs right now with Foles at QB. KC doesn’t have a legitimate QB. None of those other young QBs had to play Denver either besides Luck, who we’ll all agree is a generational prospect.

            If you want to talk about beating up bad teams, we can go through all of Seattle’s opponents.

          • aub32

            Seattle beat SF and CAR. We didn’t put up 30 in the last two games. Foles average is higher due to that fantastic Raiders game. However, I don’t know if he could have gone toe to toe against Rivers as bad as our D is playing. My frustration stems from the dismissal of what other QBs are doing just to promote Foles. I’m not a fan of such ignorance.

          • Neil

            Yeah, I agree with you there, but let’s not dismiss Foles’ accomplishments either. Like that new eaglesblog post…wow. He may not be playing the fiercest defenses, but the numbers are jawdropping, mindnumbing. These are still NFL defenses.

  • mksp

    This All-22 snapshot from Sheil demonstrates why if Chip + Howie have the opportunity to get Mariota next year, they do it.

    This isn’t “hating on” Foles, who I like. But if you can get guy who has proven to be successful in Chip’s Offense (albeit on a college level), has shown accuracy and arm strength and good decision making (still 0 INTs), AND can run a 4.5 40……I think you do it.

    If the deal doesn’t make sense, you stick with Foles, who has certainly shown enough to be *the guy* next year IMO. But I can dream about how dynamic this Offense could be if Foles was a true running threat.

    Edit: Sorry, not sure why the same pic came up twice. Also, this is an 11yd gain that could have been a TD.

    • austinfan

      If you look at all the great athletic college QBs, how many have been successful in the NFL relative to their draft position –
      Newton #1,

      Gabbert #10
      Locker
      RGIII
      Geno Smith

      etc.

      Note that Wilson spent a year running a pro style offense in Wisconsin, and has been “protected” in Seattle in a run first scheme.
      Problem with these QBs in college is they rarely have to go through progressions and don’t have NFL QB skills.

      • mksp

        I just really want people to stop lumping Mariota in with other “athletic” QBs.

        Mariota is running Chip’s Offense. He is presumably making the correct reads and progressions, considering how successful they have been.

        He has all the physical characteristics you’d want out of a QB. I don’t think its fair to call him just another athletic college QB.

        My point is there is no reason a QB can’t be both athletic and cerebral/accurate. Its just rare when it happens. Steve Young was a good example for his era.

        • GermanEagle

          I wouldnt mind seeing Mariota in Eagles green, however is there any realitisc chance we could get him?
          If he and the Eagles continue their recent level play, Mariota will go in the top 3 while the Eagles will be picking in the early to late twenties. And to trade up that far will cost at least 3 1st rounders and a couple of seconds. Pass….

          • shah8

            I think, as it stands now, there is a decent chance, because at this point, I think Braxton Miller is more desired than Mariota, if both goes out.

          • mksp

            No way. Mariota still 2nd QB on any GMs board.

          • shah8

            The UCLA and Stanford games are pretty big indictments against Mariota (technical reasons, not outcome based). Braxton Miller is still the guy with the much higher ceiling, and not completely incompetent. Mariota is still a Tannehill level prospect. He’s simply not that exciting, as a pure passer, pure runner, or moxie.

          • shah8

            This is not to say that I’d *want* to draft Miller in the first round. Miller would be the Osweiler/Kaepernick sort of pick.

          • GermanEagle

            Really?! Haven’t seen much of Miller’s play, but I think that Mariota will still be drafted in the top 5 which makes it quite a longshot to get him. Unless someone is willing to offer a first round pick for Foles.

          • fran35

            I think someone would take Foles for a first rounder.
            We got a 2nd rounder for AJ Feeley?!?!?
            I still would not trade Foles for anything short of an Andrew Luck type pick(if he continues playing this year like he has). Too much risk.

          • mksp

            Depends. Houston is in line to get a high pick. Need a QB, maybe don’t want a raw “project” like Mariota for a mature team with a true #1 receiver near the end of his prime. Maybe Foles fits their offense better anyway. Maybe Foles and a 2nd gets it done?

      • shah8

        Geno Smith don’t belong.

      • shah8

        And as much as people have gotten silly about Foles vs Wilson over the last few days, Wilson makes tons of big boy passes, and makes reads, both inside and outside the pocket. Furthermore, he’s at least on par with Aaron Rogers in terms of throwing on the run. Wilson is rather exceptional.

      • aub32

        RG3 may have struggled this year but was very accurate last year. He also turned a terrible team into a playoff team. I’d say his draft position was well earned

        Smith isn’t even a running QB. So what are you talking about?
        ….
        Gabbert’s problems stem from sensing the rush. It has nothing to do with going through progessions. He’s scared.
        ….
        Locker was looking of but can’t stay healthy

        So I really don’t see your point at all

    • cliff henny

      of course they will have the opportunity…it comes down to opportunity cost. ‘skins paid heavy price to go from 6-2, imagine what the eagles will pay to go from 15-20 to top5, maybe top3, talking basically top 2 rds of 2 maybe 3 drafts! rather see foles get some serious weapons, seems like howie has figured out this drafting thing to a degree and kelly can coach up talent. this point, i’m for getting kelly talent, max talent and not a FO trying to outsmart itself.

      • mksp

        Depends how much value Foles has. Would HOU trade their 1st rounder for Foles and a 2nd?

        That said, I agree with your greater points. Foles might be just the perfect guy to surround with weapons and let him distribute. He doesn’t need to be a top-5 QB to do that. So draft weapons and keep building the D.

        • cliff henny

          kelly has said he pictures his perfect qb as steve nash. kelly’s great, he tells everyone the truth, and why not, no one seems to believe anything he has to say.

      • aub32

        The argument I would make is look at what RG3 did last year with lesser talent than what the Eagles have now. Now I’m not saying that any of these QBs are RG3, but look at all the defeciencies that he covered. He won the divsion and had a chance to make a run if not for getting injured. I don’t want to reach for a QB, and Foles is good enough that I don’t think we should. That being said, I trust Kelly and believe he can spend whatever resources to get his ideal QB.

        • cliff henny

          i cant even imagine what it’d cost eagles to get Mariota. talking 15-20 to top2, so regardless who was taken, guarenteed teddy or MM. thos resources would be insane.
          .
          what is the worst case scenerios of keeping foles and getting him weapons? kelly seems to develope guys, so foles might have some natural regression that would be offset by kelly and better weapons. thinking tampa and GB games with an 1int. that’s worst case. now, havent spent just an F-load of picks, so get some defensive playmakers. best case, somewhere south of Oakland and north of nyg/tb/gb/wash, and better weapons and playmakers on defense.

  • bsuperfi

    Foles doesn’t have the unbelievable raw measurables (other than size), but I think the case is pretty clear to run with Foles if he keeps up this play. His decision-making and accuracy seem special. His ability to manipulate a pocket and throw on the move seem really good, if not special. Put that together with his size and it’s a problem for other teams. He’s tough. He played pretty well under heavy fire last year as a rookie. He’s killing it in the first year of a new offense with a new coach. He’s corrected flaws in his game (e.g. long ball) and hopefully can correct more. He already has the savvy to do pump fakes and look offs, which many QBs never develop.

    Comparisons I saw below to players like Schaub and Cassel seem off to me. Foles looks (maybe much) more than functional, and he has exhibited a ceiling that very few QBs ever have.

    This isn’t to say he’s going to be an eternal world-beater. But it looks like the odds are he falls somewhere on the Ryan-Brady spectrum.

    Given the opportunity cost of moving up in the draft, I think sticking with what we have maximizes the value of our assets. Just imagine how much better Foles would look with a top flight defense. Probably better than Brady in his early days.

    • shah8

      Schaub, and I remember him from his atlanta days, has always been a better passer than Foles currently is.

      • RobNE

        taking the position that Foles will not be an elite QB is most likely correct. But ok, you have that belief, what would you like to see done? A massive trade that debilitates the team’s ability to improve other areas, perhaps for multiple years? Sign someone else as a free agent who is/could be elite (who is that?)? Some other option?

        • fran35

          What is the definition of “elite QB”? If that is specific to Brady, Manning, and Brees-that is fine. If you are lumping the second tier guys in there as well, I think Foles has an absolute fair shot to be that good.
          Eli is, and has never been an elite QB. Nor Flacco. But I will take Foles and their rings instead of a Dan Marino.

  • Mike Flick

    https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/11/20/ranking-the-2013-offensive-lines-second-quarter/

    Check out this ranking of offensive lines:
    Eagles came in at #1. Next game will be against the Cardinals who are ranked 32nd.

    • ACViking

      Re: Seattle’s Bad O-line

      Very interesting.

      So with Seattle at No. 31 . . . I remain baffled by the argument that Russell Wilson is just the product of a (i) great running game, or (ii) great defense, or (iii) home-field advantage, or (iv) [ fill in the blank ].

      If you take Wilson’s 405 rushing yards away from Seattle’s total, the Seahawks drop from 2nd overall in total rushing yards — 30 yards behind the Eagles — to 11th overall.

      Hard to fathom how Nick Foles is not in the most “run friendly” offense in the NFL . . . and that’s why he’s doing so well.

      Wilson’s notched 9 game-winning drives in 26 regular season starts. Plus 1 GWD — and nearly a second — in 2 playoff starts.

      The kid is resourceful and by all accounts a great leader.

      I’m not saying Wilson’s the next Dan Marino in terms of raw passing numbers.

      But I’d love to have him on the Eagles. Just as I like having Foles.

      Again, I don’t get the beat-down Wilson takes on this blog.

      • aub32

        Seems that too many fans here are prisoner of the moment without actually acknowledging that other young QBs are doing some great things too. The desire to validate that Foles is “the guy” prevents people from being objective. Foles has played very well. However, his accomplishments do not tower over what Wilson and others have done.

      • BlindChow

        I posted this a few days ago, but if you’re wondering why people would think Wilson is in a good situation in Seattle, this is an example. It surely isn’t representative of every performance, but it is telling:

        ***

        Here’s Wilson’s stat line in the SF-SEA game from earlier this year:

        8 of 19, 142 yards (42.1%) – 63.9 passer rating – 1 TD, 1 INT
        3.3 yards per carry, no rushing TD’s

        On the Eagles, that stat line would have resulted in a loss. In Seattle, they won 29-3.

        • McNabbulousness

          this is a BlindWow post, good info

      • bill

        I don’t “beat him down,” but just like many have said about Foles, I’m not sold on him as some sort of superstar yet. I think, like Foles, he has a high “floor,” but I also think that given the field chart he posted last year, his “reads” are much more limited than the mobile QB fanbois are willing to acknowledge. Let me see him win a few shootouts, or consistently succeed against top defenses. I’m not sold that his ceiling is nearly as high as those obsessed with athleticism seem to think it is.
        Much like Foles, Wilson’s been up and down enough, and has a limited enough sample size, with the added issue of playing for a very talented team that wins with defense moreso than offense, that I’m not sold yet. Much like I’ve repeatedly stated I’m not sold on Foles.

      • Anders

        My main problem is that he has rarely won games for them alone (aka his defense is doing totally crap). The only game where is defense didnt help, he lost this year.

        He had to be saved by his defense against the Texans (who are really bad) with a late Sherman pick-6 to force overtime. He had to play for overtime again the Mike Glennon lead Bucs.

        Russell Wilson is basically Michael Vick without the interceptions or fumbles and a great defense.

        Yes he is posting great numbers and PFF (bah they are crap) might have their OL as bad, but Wilson is often holding onto the ball or scrambling.

        Regarding the run game, the Eagles have 431 yards on the ground from Vick+Foles. So they two average around the same on the ground as Wilson.

        • BlindChow

          Don’t forget the Rams. It basically took a missed FG and Kellen Clemons to keep them from losing that one.

        • McNabbulousness

          I would argue a less explosive version of Vick, but with you on the lack of TOs/INTs comparison.

      • Andy124

        If I’m not mistaken, he’s led Seattle to the second most points in the entire league this year without a lot of receiving talent and that OL while compiling a passer rating over 100.

        I’m whichu.

      • Michael Winter Cho

        Wilson plays safely, effectively and intelligently when the rest of his team is dominating, but when necessary, he can open it up and create yards and points by himself. He had a good start, a good present, and has a bright future.

  • jaws80

    Two objective, knowledgeable football fans can discuss rightly if Foles has shown enough to be here next year. Is he a good fit for Kelly?

    These same two fans can, if objective, also go on to talk about the MVP race and Foles would have to be in that discussion, if just going by wins, the team’s record when he took over and his throwing (and his running) statistics.

    i have been a Foles fan since the draft, and I even see how these two discussions are both valid and somehow the MVP race discussion does not override the should Foles start here next year discussion. What am i missing?

    • P_P_K

      I’ve been drinking, no, guzzling the kool-aid, so I’ll join this discussion. At this point, the Eagles are just 1 game over .500 and probably shouldn’t be considered a top tier team. But, looking at their schedule and the way the rest of the NFC is playing, it is in the realm of possibility that the Birds make a run. They could finish out 5-1 or 4-2, and host a playoff game or two. Supposing home field actually becomes and advantage, well, by golly, all of a sudden the Eagles are gunning for the NFC. If this happens, Nick could wind up being in the MVP voting and Chip for the Coach of the Year.

      The kool-aid is going down easy this bye week.

      • BlindChow

        Yeah, even Graziano begrudgingly put Foles (and Shady!) on his MVP list this week. And he think Foles is JAG.

        But I’d say the MVP and “QB of the future” discussions are inextricably linked. If he plays well enough to qualify as one, he’ll have played well enough to qualify as the other, right?

        • P_P_K

          “But I’d say the MVP and “QB of the future” discussions are inextricably
          linked. If he plays well enough to qualify as one, he’ll have played
          well enough to qualify as the other, right?”

          Hard to argue with logic like that… unless you go on the EMB.

    • aub32

      I don’t think the MVP discussion is valid simply because I’m pretty sure Manning has already been given the award, especially after not receiving it last year. In other years, it would be a valid discussion.