Switching Places
Posted: December 17th, 2013 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 166 Comments »I watched MNF last night as a neutral observer. I didn’t care whether the Lions or Ravens won. I just wanted to be entertained. The game went down to the last second so the teams did a good job of that.
One thing that struck me while watching the game is that we had big time QB talents in Joe Flacco and Matt Stafford, but neither played very well. The Lions defense is middle of the pack. The Ravens are Top 10, but not a juggernaut group. Those QBs should have moved the ball better than they did. The QBs didn’t get a ton of help. Even Megatron had a couple of costly drops.
I couldn’t help but wonder what Flacco and Stafford might look like in Chip Kelly’s offense.
Nick Foles doesn’t have as much raw talent as either of those QBs, but his production is off the charts. He has thrown 23 TDs so far this year. Stafford has 28, but in more than double the number of attempts. Flacco has almost double the attempts, but has only thrown 18 TDs this year. Both Stafford and Flacco have thrown 17 INTs this year.
Would Kelly’s offense look off the charts good with a top talent running it? There are some receivers open that Foles just can’t get the ball to because he lacks an explosive arm. Or would we find out that Foles decision-making ability is critical to Kelly’s offense and is something we’re not giving enough credit to?
It would be helpful if we had some way to see an outside QB run Kelly’s offense. We could then judge the success of that offense against the Foles version here and the QB’s other offense on another team. We might in fact see that Foles is pretty close to being the perfect QB for Kelly or we might see that this scheme is good now, but could be something truly special with an even better QB running it.
There is no way to know what the answer would be. Just an interesting hypothetical situation to consider.
I find myself watching other teams and trying to figure out if I would rather have Foles or the QBs in that particular game. One of the most interesting situations would be Foles vs RG3. In terms of raw talent, there is no question that Bob Griffin is the choice. But the situation is more complex than that.
With Griffin, you also have his off-field stuff. He seems to really embrace the marketing world. RG3 hasn’t met a commercial or marketing campaign he doesn’t like. I have no problem with a player who strikes while the iron is hot. However, you don’t want that stuff to affect football or even to appear to affect football.
Griffin spent a lot of time in the offseason rehabbing his knee and he even made that into a campaign. He did commercials about his comeback. He had a slogan, believe it or not…All in for Week 1. I’m sure there were T-shirts for sale.
Players need to focus on being great on the field first, and then make the off-field money. Griffin did a lot of things in the offseason, but improving as a pocket passer isn’t one of them. He couldn’t practice much due to the knee (no preseason action at all), but you wonder if all the media and marketing stuff distracted him from film study and the classroom stuff at all.
Foles hasn’t had one percent of the opportunities that Griffin has with the media and that’s helped him stay focused on football. This offseason will be a test for Foles, especially if the Eagles do win the division and he leads the league in passer rating. He still won’t come close to RG3, but there will be more distractions for him to deal with.
RG3 has had multiple ACL tears. Foles is pretty healthy.
RG3 has had his parents involved in his NFL life. Foles is all on his own.
RG3 hasn’t been on the same page with his coach for the past year. Foles has been great with both Reid and Kelly.
RG3 has drawn a lot of criticism for comments that seem to pass the blame, while not taking responsibility for bad plays or losses. Foles has not said anything critical of a coach or teammate. From Day 1, he’s taken the blame when things go wrong.
In a year, the question of Foles vs RG3 may seem utterly ridiculous. Griffin might get right back to being an explosive playmaker when he’s fully heathy. The full offseason may help him to develop as a pocket passer. And the poor season may limit what he does with the media and marketers. To be fair, Foles may also get better. He’ll be entering his third season and will have a lot of confidence in himself and the offense. He’ll know what he needs to work on and he’ll have the experience to help him learn better.
I don’t think you can truly judge either guy without sitting down with them and getting a feel for who they truly are. I think that would be crucial to evaluating them and how they will do in the future.
Hopefully Foles vs RG3 will be an interesting debate for years to come.
* * * * *
Lots of injuries for the secondary, which isn’t good when facing the Bears.
Hopefully Earl Wolff will be able to return. We need him. Brandon Boykin has to deal with concussion protocol, but Reuben Frank just said he’s at least in the practice bubble today and dealing with that noise is a good sign that his head might be okay. If he’s unable to go, Pat Chung slides into the Nickel spot.
We need the smoothies to be magical this week.
_
Tommy, I think the same thing, flacco especially has a live arm and a nice spiral. But then I think about how well Russell Wilson is playing, and I hope that Foles can make that kind of jump in year 3. Wilson played pretty similarly early last year to how foles plays sometimes, like against the vikings. I hope he ends up having elite brains like it seems wilson has.
Yeah, Flacco and Stafford both have serious arm strength, but maybe that also means that they are used to depending on arm strength more than their thinking to find people open.
One thing to keep in mind when comparing Foles to Wilson is that Wilson has a MUCH better team. The Seahawks team has a make up that affords a young QB the ideal circumstances to thrive in. Top defense in the league, very good O-line, and a bruising workhorse RB. I think if Foles were on the Seahawks he’d be putting up much better numbers than Wilson. Same could be said for Kaep in SF.
How good would Wilson or Kaep be if they were starting for the Jags,..or the Jets?
Seattle’s defense is a huge help for Wilson, but Foles has better receivers and a better RB and probably a better line. I don’t think you’re giving Wilson enough credit.
I think Wilson is good,..no doubt. But keep in mind, Wilson has an offense that will run the ball consistently. Not as much pressure on him to make plays. Along with the fact that they’ll win most of their games scoring 17 points or better. Foles has the pressure of having to score north of 30 to win most games. The defense is a huge factor.
Agreed, but the Eagles have run the ball about as consistently as the Seahawks this year. Seattle’s at 53% running, which we have to remember includes Wilson himself and the handoffs they run when they have huge leads and just want to bleed the clock. The Eagles are at 47% and that’s after a game in which they passed 35 more times than they ran.
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/66008790/
THE BEST AND WORST NFL ANNOUNCERS
Startling analysis!
LMAO
I was surprised by this. Joe Buck is my least favorite announcer in sports. I find him completely insufferable, but they didn’t grade him out poorly at all.
He really should have added a “Homer” category for blind support of his old team (or hatred of former rivals). Aikman would steal the award. Watching him call an Eagles game is painful!
disagree on this. Simms is much worse
I hate the Cowboys and strongly disliked Aikman when they were winning SBs in the ’90s. But I have wearily come to respect Aikman and appreciate him as an announcer. I don’t think he’s a homer. Before the 1st home win this year I liked that Aikman stated he was shocked about the Eagles home losing streak and reminisced that during his playing days coming to the Vet was always tough match.
I haven’t completely finished reading this yet but I’m happy that somebody has hard evidence to prove how bad Dierdorf is. I can’t stand that Andre Waters hater.
Dude, watching that SF-Seattle game was my Damascus moment. When I shrugged off any notion of being a good sport, and recognized that, not only in the game I just saw, but the Arizona game, that Foles most likely will not truly be any good.
And remember, it’s generally what happens on bad days that give you the clue to who’s any good and who’s not.
Well, we certainly know which days you want to use to judge Foles. Too bad you have to wait so long between “bad” games before you get your chance, eh?
(Though that explains why the rest of the world judges Joe Webb on last year’s playoff disaster, instead of that one game where he looked good…)
Is this the guy that thinks Webb is better than Foles?
Yup, Webb is definitely better.
I cannot believe that there are too many people happy with Foles at Novacare Center now.
Yeah, because that one loss after five wins is HORRIBLE! He should be out of the league and never play again!
Not what the box scores or the wins sez, but how the game was played.
No, it’s wins and losses – not what you say. And so far he’s doing pretty good. It must be horrible to always be so negative about something that is supposed to be a fun distraction!
I bet NO is chasing Brees out of town, too. Did you see that loser? Clearly a track record of being too short and too inept on the road. Webb would have had that game over in the 1st half.
Very true…Foles can’t possibly be a good QB, otherwise he’d be the first good QB in history to ever play a subpar game and lose. And, we all know that has never happened.
Dude…gotta ease up, because you’re making a fool of yourself. You don’t have to love Foles and think he’s the next great thing, but in your quote-unquote game that proves he’s horrible, he threw for 423 yards had 3 TDs and 1 INT while leading the team to 30 points with no running game whatsoever and a defense that couldn’t get off the field.
If that’s his bad game (hell…if that’s how he plays every day and that’s his best possible performance) he’s still an above average starter. Get of it, man.
Why isn’t he starting? Why doesn’t he have over 25 tds and 2 ints? You make absolutely no sense and your ignorance is frustrating. I will not post another comment to yours from now in because you dnt deserve a response.
Fortunately, what you can and cannot believe has very little bearing on reality.
you’re trolling right? I mean … right? There’s no way this is serious…
Shah… I mean marcus vick. Is butt hurt because Foles is playing better than his brother.
Not thinks. KNOWS.
Where do you come up with this garbage? Are you really that blinded by your dislike for the great Nick Foles or are you just delusional? Either way you’ll build a much better argument if you actually back up your ridiculous statements with a fact once in a while.
I do not have to come up with any garbage. I’m just basically being Mr. Anderson when I’m telling you all that Foles’ departure is inevitable.
Look…This is the issue. What we have here is Foles playing like a slightly better passing but worse runner Colt McCoy effectively running a slightly more sophisticated version of Mike McCoy’s Tebow offense. Chip Kelly, for all intents and purposes, is button-mashing for points, Tebow style, with lots of deep attempts. Kelly cannot be happy trying to run the offense that way. Kelly also has to be very unhappy with Foles’ inability to make plays at critical points. Tim Tebow could only throw one pass, but he does at least make good deep balls, and better than what Foles can do there. Tebow can at least be some sort of credible threat at running. He’s just horrid at everything else. But the most important point is that Tebow can make a play every once in awhile.
Seriously, though, neg me all you like, but there is no way Foles last beyond the early 2015 season like this. If you want to see him last, you really gotta have the expectation that Foles will make passes into window, pro-style–routinely. That Foles will get much better at placing the ball when driving it to *all* areas of the field, and not relying on lofting balls for accuracy and ease of catching. That Foles will make routine plays routine, and not have Shady spend talent and time on making hard catches on a normal screen! Perhaps he don’t have to make plays. Perhaps he don’t have to have good athleticism (not this these two things are genuinely true for good QB prospects), but Foles has to be better at being a caretaker QB, Schaub or Dalton style.
The numbers aren’t what the people in Novacare are looking at. What they’re looking at is his play on the field, and what they’re seeing is a pretty bad job against a nonexistent secondary, when the game was in reach. What they’re looking at is a running game that is crippled into simplicity because the other NFL teams has absolutely no regard for Foles as a rusher (or as a passer), and no trouble catching him when they really want to, like Jared Allen’s stop for no gain.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
This reply has as much content as your post 🙂
Well, I’m not precisely pleased that I touched a nerve, but when I get the finger-poked-in-ears LALALALA response, I think I’m getting somewheres.
I agree with a lot of your points, but overall I have a higher opinion of Foles than you do.
We can’t know what they are saying in the coaches meetings. I expect Foles to be back next year, but I wouldn’t be completely shocked if what you are saying turns out to be correct.
The thing is, I don’t see the Eagles taking a QB with a high draft pick next year, so what’s the alternative? I don’t think any of the QBs available via FA can really be considered an upgrade over Foles. And teams rarely trade away starting QBs.
have been seeing (unlikely to be true) rumors by purported insiders online that Kelly has already decided to pick a QB high in the next draft.
But we don’t have a high pick in the draft… What’s he going to do, trade Foles and our #1 to Jacksonville or something?
I don’t really know what will happen. Alot depends on whether the points keep falling in, now and next year. I don’t really have a preference. I personally believe Vick is on the sidelines for unpopularity reasons and unlikely to be back. I doubt that anyone will make a move for Bridgewater, and the QB class looks weak past that (ignore the Bortles talk, same game as the Blaine Gabbert talk). So, I figure it’s just all going to be quite random from our perspective what Kelly’s going to do.
Or because Vick isn’t that good. but hey you are motivated by something other than logic.
“I don’t really have a preference. I personally believe Vick is on the sidelines for unpopularity reasons..”
That’s awesome. It’s almost revealing to the point of putting mental illness on display. I don’t believe you really have no preference.
Well, of course I’d like to have Mike Vick back. I think he’s a much better QB, and I liked how the Kelly offense worked with him in it and believed that there was much potential in that offense.
sigh, if only Vick was here….
The Eagles have compiled 3,656 passing and 2,140 rushing yards this season, becoming the fourth team in NFL history with over 3,500 passing yards and 2,100 rushing yards through 14 games (2004 Chiefs, 1998 49ers, 1968 Raiders).
Sweartogawd we need Vick running the show. It’s plain to see how his arm strength and the bind his speed puts the defense in has helped him throw 21 whole touchdown passes in a single season once. And those same attributes, and razor sharp intellect giving him the ability to run truly complex plays have proven his excellence with 6 games of 3+ td passes in his career. That’s 20% more than the 5 Foles has managed in his 8 starts this year.
And let’s talk about the sacks. Foles is allowing himself to be sacked at an alarming 7.9% because he refuses to make any risky throws – the only reason for his low interception total. Vick is more willing to make the difficult throw and his mobility makes him far less vulnerable to being tackled behind the line of scrimmage, which is why he’s taken 6 sacks less than Foles…. 10.6%.
Your to funny
Thank you Rob. Mind if I call you Rob? 🙂
I love this response!
Which is fine. I do prefer when you’re up front about it.
hahahahaha. credibility- utterly ruined.
Potential? What about the pure and simple fact that the same offense has been much better statistically, has scored more points and won more games with Foles as opposed to Vick.
“Much potential in that offense”
Does that translate to 23 TDs 2 interceptions? Because the Vick I saw play in this offense looked nothing like those stats
except he isn’t. You just “look” at him and see him as better and we all know why.
I always picture his replies as if they were written by Spike Lee wearing a clown nose.
QB Nick Foles threw for 428 yards, setting a career high and tying for the sixth-highest total in team history … Foles also threw for three touchdowns, marking his fifth such game this season. Norm Snead (6 in 1967) is the only Eagle with more three-touchdown games in a season … With a passer rating of 117.0 in 2013, Foles boasts the fourth-best rating in NFL history, trailing only Aaron Rodgers (122.5 in 2011), Peyton Manning (121.1 in 2004) and Tom Brady (120.0 in 2013) … Over the last six games, he has completed 113 of 176 attempts (64.2%) for 1,776 yards, 17 touchdowns and two interceptions. His 125.1 passer rating is the highest ever by an Eagle over a six-game span, topping Donovan McNabb’s 116.0 in 2004 … With seven games of a QB rating exceeding 100 in 2013, Foles is two shy of the team record set by McNabb in 2004. Ron Jaworski is second with eight in 1980 … Foles qualified to become the Eagles all-time leader in career quarterback rating (98.1) and completion percentage (61.4).
If you think that’s what I’m doing you are sorely mistaken. You are not here to argue. I also think you’re quite incapable of it. If you think what you posted there is in any way coherent then I think perhaps you need to read a book or two.
Interestingly no one is calling you on your most obvious, obvious reasons for nit-picking on Foles.
I think it’s pretty obvious to most people with an IQ over room temp. that Foles biggest flaw is the color of his skin.
All the rest of the bullshit is window dressing.
didn’t mr. anderson get destroyed by Neo, and shown to be the fraudulent code clinging to an old belief system? hmm…
I dont want to spend too much time on this so this will be my last reply but I just couldnt sit back any longer. My problem with your argument is this:
– You constantly try to compare our situation with Foles to that of other teams/players. (ex. “Colt McCoy effectively running a slightly more sophisticated version of Mike McCoy’s Tebow offense”) …….This is a shitty way of trying to make a point and it really proves nothing. The Nick Foles/Chip Kelly legacy is being written daily and really all we can do is sit back and watch and hope for the best. Chip may eventually decide to go in another direction but as of right now Nick Foles looks like the real deal and his stats back that up accross the board.
-You also claim to know what Chip Kelly is thinking and what he does or doesnt like. (ex. “Chip Kelly, for all intents and purposes, is button-mashing for points, Tebow style, with lots of deep attempts. Kelly cannot be happy trying to run the offense that way. Kelly also has to be very unhappy with Foles’ inability to make plays at critical points”……………I call bullshit! You have no clue what Chip is thinking or how he feels about Foles and if you think that your somehow on the same wavelength as Chip then your even more delusional than i thought.
-Im getting impatient because this is getting too long so regarding the rest of the nonesense you wrote about Foles not being able to throw into tight windows or being accurate and not being able to consistently run a pro styled offense. All i can say is try to forgot your bias’ and just watch the games!!! If you cant see that he has done all these things over and over fairly consistently and even making it look easy at times then there is no hope for you and I wish you luck. Thats all I have to say about that.
yea, Peyton’s a big believer in that too.
Could you give me tonight’s lotto numbers as well?
I dnt understand you, you constantly say Foles is not even decent and furthermore will never be any good. Yet he doesn’t have a full seasons of starts in Chip Kelly’s offense. He is literally just in his second year and looks more than capable NFL quarterback already. Arm strength is over rated. That alone does not make a good qb. He has already had a 7 td game. He literally was one td away from tying an NFL record set by Peyton Manning. Foles is already much more than I think any off us expected. If he turns out later in his career to not be very good then so be it, but for right now, yes, he is good. You say you can tell if a quarterback is any good by his bad days? He had a bad day and still put up over 400 yards and 3 tds, even if the Vikings secondary is bad try still played well in that game.
In summation, even if he lacks arm strength he can make up for that in other areas like makin good decisions, which he should only get better at.
He did tie Manning’s record. Foles was 1 TD away from setting a new one.
Was going to say the same thing, then realized Mitchell was talking about the OTHER Manning record, 20tds without a pick to start the season.
I think he needed one more to tie and 2 to break it.
What we have here is a failure to communicate. The 7 touchdown game against Oakland tied a Manning record, which is what Sokhar is referring to.
The 20tds without a pick is what you’re referring to.
You have been saying Foles will not be any good since he was conceived.
When u have a great O-line, top 5 defense, and can lean on a bruising RB..any QB will look better. You could put Ponder, Gabbert, or Locker.. whomever on Seattle or SF and that QB will win games. The total strenght and make up of those teams can mask a QB’s deficiencys.
Don’t feed the troll guys.
Are Flacco and Stafford significantly better than Vick as far as making timely decisions, throwing with anticipation and throwing to spots rather than receivers? If not, I think we have our idea of what they would look like. Vick put up fat numbers too; although he did add a running aspect to the offense they wouldn’t be able to do. Regardless, Vick at his best didn’t put up the numbers Foles has put up at his best.
It’s obvious you’d like to transplant the vision, instincts and knowledge of any of the top few QBs of right now (none of whom are explosive talents, right now) into a freak athlete’s body for any offense. But how many QBs in the history of the entire NFL really were the “complete” package? Maybe there are one or two in the league in any given year if even that much.
What’s between a QBs ears > arm strength.
Peyton/Brady/Brees > Stafford/Flacco/Cutler.
Mike Vick had lots of turnovers under Andy Reid and Chip Kelly. There is no reason to think Stafford or Flacco would not do the same.
Honestly Tommy, I was just thinking about this exact thing. Watching Foles overthrow some receivers and knowing his limited arm strength and athletic ability, I can’t help but think: Is Chip’s offense (and our skill players/OL) just that unstoppable that a decent QB like Foles puts up insane numbers? Would a strong-armed, mobile QB make the offense literally unstoppable? As much as we like to talk about Kelly being able to run his O with a pocket passer, there’s also the idea that having a mobile QB just adds another element of explosion. There are so many zone-reads and deep passes that I can’t help but think that maybe McNabb would be unstoppable in this offense.
Then I think, McNabb wasn’t great at making quick decisions. He didn’t trust his WRs to make 50-50 plays like Foles does, which is also a giant part of the success of the offense. And I’m really not sure what the answer is. Also, we have to remember that he’s only started 14 games in his career. I think he’s going to continue to get better and better.
So really, I could see them go in any direction. I like Foles as a player and as a professional, as I know him. But if they traded him, they’d probably get a bounty, and if there’s a perfect fit for Chip in the draft…I could just see both sides.
I think the only way to be unstoppable as a QB is to never have a bad game making good, timely decisions and accurate throws. If you have a bad game in those regards, it doesn’t matter how strong your arm is. A strong arm can make up for some deficiency in that regard, but the more I try to square what I see from Cutler with what I see from Brady…I just don’t think it’s a big deal. Cutler is iffy in those more important characteristics and is an iffy QB regardless of his arm. Tom Brady isn’t and is Tom Terrific.
No, there’s another way to be unstoppable…
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu267/BoogaFrito/EliFaceCitizen.jpg
Looks like he’s stoned!
his eyes are going in completely different directions
Having a “franchise” QB with an elementary school defense is not the solution either. This team needs to stick with Foles for next year and draft DEFENSE, DEFENSE, DEFENSE this year. Shore up that side of the ball, and Foles can take us there!
I agree somewhat, but our defense isn’t a complete disaster. We’ve got some big holes, but there isn’t a need for a total overhaul. Particularly, we are looking both young and pretty damn good on the defensive line with Cox, Thorton and Logan. Connor Barwin and Kendricks are both keepers at LB. And Brandon Boykin is very solid at nickel. So, that’s 6 of 11 (or 12) positions where we have a solid foundation for the future.
Let’s say we get another year or two out of DeMeco Ryans and Trent Cole and look for their eventual replacements in FA or later rounds of the draft… At this point we are really only looking to upgrade the secondary.
Let’s hope that either Earl Wolff or Nate Allen (or a combination of both) becomes one solid safety starter. So what are we really looking for? One safety and two cornerbacks. Hell, maybe we even say that Bradley Fletcher is solid enough to be our #2 corner (despite his performance last week) if paired with a very strong starter.
So, we go 1st round or FA at cornerback, 2nd round or FA at safety, grab a BPA linebacker on the second day of the draft, and we’re set! Easy. In Roseman I trust.
I’d like it to not play as if it were a complete disaster then.
I would bet we see some first day picks to OFF. Maybe OL or WR. I don’t really expect Maclin or Avant back.
Defense can be below average in Chips scheme. The offense needs to be a little more efficient and the score differential will soar. The Eagles are closer to Chip’s objective than fans realize. Real close indeed.
We dont need to play hypotheticals. We had the ultimate strong armed, mobile QB in Vick and the offense was damn good…but it wasn’t as good as it is with Foles.
Let Me Be Me
When I read this, I remembered Shiels comment that Foles made a good read, but a bad throw. How much credit do we give for a read another QB (RE: Vick) might not have made but a throw that other QB might have made?
If we manage to draft Joe Montana in next year’s 3rd round, its all academic, of course.
Wait, we already have our 3rd round alltime great.
I wouldn’t want RGIII at this point just because of the injuries. It seems to me like he’s just going to continue to tear those knees throughout his short career.
To take a break from the Foles talk for a moment… Tommy, how do you feel about Roc Carmichael? Where would you put his upside? He’s young and was hurt his rookie year so he really hasn’t played much in the the NFL yet. Could he be a potential starter down the road? Or should we just be happy if he can stick around as a back up?
I think Carmichael profiles as a guy you prefer coming off the bench. He would be someone you could live with as the (excluding slot) number three corner but preferably would be a number 4 corner.
Roc has shown some flashes, but I would try to upgrade on him in the offseason. He’s an acceptable #4 CB, but I’d like to have someone I was more confident in.
All we need is a decent #1 CB. Fletch at 2, Boykin at nickel, Sconces back at dime for a year.
One good S and a decent pass rush will make them all better. But that one CB will improve the starters and depth
I disagree with your assessment of talent. Stafford and Flacco are not as talented as Foles when they are throwing 17 ints. Clear and simple, that is a horrible number that means you lack accuracy, which is a talent. There are tons of people out there who can throw a football 70 yards, but that isn’t good enough, you have to have touch. It’s very obvious that Stafford has zero touch with the way he throws. His throws are unpredictable, too often come in way too fast, and are not as easily catchable.
Versus RG3, Foles has him beat in numerous departments. Number one, again, accuracy. RG3 has way more picks and bad throws. Also, RG3 is straight up not a good leader. He is immature, only cares about himself, and it shows. His teammates do not publicly support him when his leadership is in question. He is no longer a great mobile QB. Hell, even if he still had his speed, which he doesn’t, you’re too scared to use it because he has glass knees. That brings me to my last point. Foles is huge. He’s 6’6″. That size at the QB position is a talent. He can take hits, and he has taken many with aplomb. Ditto Flacco. Eli Manning is 6’4, not as big, but still much bigger than RG3. Has he even missed a game yet?
Caveat: I was, and always will be a Vick fan, but this perception of Foles is not one I agree with.
By more talented Tommy means .”more successful in college.”
This is just silly. I assume Tommy’s talking about raw physical talent, not decision making. If you don’t think Stafford and Flacco have much bigger arms than Foles then you’re blinded by the fan-boy glasses. It doesn’t make them better, but they do have more physical talent.
So if we get a bodybuilder who can throw a ball 80 yards but gets dozens of interceptions, they too have more raw talent? That doesn’t really make sense. Talent isn’t measured in a single metric, in your case arm strength.
“If he is unable to go, Pat Chung slides into the nickel spot.”
That is a terrifying sentence. I like that you called him “Pat” though. I can sort of convince myself that we picked up a great new CB I’ve never heard of, and the known terrible Patrick Chung will be stapled to the bench where he belongs.
Bill Davis expects a good game from the Chungster this week. I on the other hand will be watching with my eyes partially covered.
At least we won’t get nnamdi’d
I have to agree. We were obviously all expecting a lot more, but at this point I think I’d rather see Coleman or Anderson out there before Chung. Maybe we could even try Brad Smith out there.
Chung in the slot gave up that long touchdown to Greg Jennings last week. Davis said it was just a coincidence that Coleman came into the game after that…
One of the writers on Philly.com predicted that Chung would be his Chungiest in the game…nail on the head there! I think I chunged a couple times during the game watching him play!
Eric Decker is a free agent at the end of the year. Can we add him to the Maclin/Cooper/Other discussion? There is an argument to make that he’s benefiting from playing with Manning but clearly Cooper has benefitted from playing with Foles too.
Also, trading Vinny Curry seems to get discussed quite a bit. Any other players that you think could get moved? I’m thinking Patrick Chung and a 6th round pick for a vintage Don Schwartz baseball card and maybe a bag of footballs?
Decker is going to be the top receiver on the market. He’s going to get a very large payday. Decker is going to get somewhere around Greg Jennings money at 5 years $47.5 million. He’s arguably better than Riley however by how much? Riley is probably only going to get 4 years at 4-6 million per and that is on the high end. The team would be better off signing Riley and then allocating the savings to paying for another starter. In other words you can afford Thorton and Cooper vs only affording Decker.
Very much my opinion too, just wanted to hear what others thought. Decker is going to get payed as a #1 WR but he’s unproven in that role. I’m sure having Thomas on the other side has benefited him.
I seriously doubt that Cooper gets that kind of money. Ask yourself this: How much money would Cooper have been offered after week 5 based on his under 20 yards a game average and his previous 3 years of 200ish yards a season?
I do not think NFL teams are going to be offering starter money to a career backup who was elevated to a starter’s role because of injury and had a couple of big number games while paired with one the NFL’s biggest receiving threats in an offense that is putting up huge numbers. And that’s without considering the whole racist incident that will obviously play a factor in determining teams’ interest in him.
I don’t think the Eagles will have to spend much to retain Cooper, but if he gets an offer of more than 1.5 million I hope they let him go. And if they do sign him, I hope they are able to bring in enough talent so he does not make the final roster.
I don’t know that he’s worth that kind of money either. However, Brian Hartline got 5 years 30 million last offseason and the WR group in FA this year is incredibly weak. Not saying it will happen but I’m almost positive that someone will likely offer him a multiyear deal worth 8 figures.
Decker would be great, but will cost a lot.
I think Decker is just a sort haired non racist version of Cooper, so I just want to keep the cheaper player
Avant, Todd Father or Graham? I don’t know their contract details but I can’t think of too many guys with any value that we have the depth to not miss if we trade them. I wouldn’t trade Celek personally.
If they start Foles and I think they will, I would say Coop needs to come back. And he wants to, so that will probably happen.
I was having a conversation with my dad, and actually surprised myself with how much I have bought in on Foles. We started talking about (including age and contract), which player we would start a franchise with. The only player I think I would take over Foles as the first pick would be Russell Wilson.
Interesting.
What about GJ Kinne???
In this scenario we deemed that no team could take GJ Kinne, just to give the other 31 teams a chance.
RGIII has shown all year long that without his legs, he is NOT an effective QB. He’s proven it in game after game that he can’t beat you with his arm! Without that threat to run out of the backfield, he can’t (or at least hasn’t) consistently win games (sound like anyone we all know?).
So, no I don’t think he’d be more effective than Foles is. No more than our other QB was (much like the Redskins controversy, I don’t mention his name anymore!).
It’s too early to call it now, but IMHO RGknee (sorry, had to) is close to being a bust on the level of Leaf or Bosworth. Not yet, but maybe after next year.
Got to ask — is “RGknee” original? If so, take a bow.
You’ve got to be kidding. RGIII literally had the best rookie season ever with the limited talent on that roster. He’s suffering from terrible coordinators and the fact that he had no offseason to become a better QB or even maintain his skills. Meanwhile every other team got better at guarding against the skins’ bread and butter. I think RGIII will be a lot better next year but you can’t call the former rookie of the year a ryan leaf type bust with a straight face.
As far as I’m concerned, we’ve already seen Kelly’s O run by one of the most physically talented human beings to play the game. I’m more curious to see a Brady type run it.
Yep, exactly. The rocket arm and fleet feet still left a lot on the table. Stuff that has had us feasting the past two months.
I feel quite strongly that the “his arm isnt good enough” stuff is
massively overblown, and the other, much more important aspects (pocket
presence, decision making, accuracy), are underplayed. Would it be nice
if Foles’ arm was a little bigger? sure, but I just don’t see his arm
strength as a barrier to success.
It isn’t a barrier to success. Foles has a good enough arm.
That said, if the Eagles had a pocket passer with an explosive arm, there might be another 5 or 6 TD passes from the last 6 games.
Maybe. but 5 out of 6 we won the day.
Whenever I think that I want a QB with a big arm, I think about Brad Johnson.
He truly made the most of his talent and won wherever he played.
If Foles keeps hitting the open guy, we’ll be fine.
Well, yes, if Foles hits “NFL Open” guys, sure, we’ll be fine. I think people are really glossing over just how unacceptable Foles’ play was, particularly with an eye towards the long view.
You mean he threw guys NFL open. sigh. Yeah he played like crap. I forgot what the narrative was.
He certainly made some mistakes. Good QB’s look at the film and don’t repeat those mistakes.
Only time will tell how he does. I’m willing go give him a few years to build his mental database.
See, you make stuff up and have no clue. Foles generally throws to the spot, not to the “open guy”, That is what an NFL QB does. College QBs throw to the “open guy”. You for some reason just don’t like the kid and are making one game look like his career. I seem to remember Joe Flacco have some horrible games last year – wait, didn’t he win a Superbowl? Keep impressing yourself with your football acumen, and we’ll keep ignoring you or correcting you.
uh huh…
Alex Smith effectively got fired for playing the way Nick Foles has, with almost as good stats.
No.
He’s not throwing into windows. He’s taking really bad sacks from not attempting anything with the slightest risk.
And no, “he’s not throwing to spots”, outside of his deep high arc throws to the sideline. You know what throwing to a spot really looks like? Try Philip River’s single TD throw against Indy. Clip gotta been online somewheres.
made up.
Completely wrong. Smith lost his job in SF because he couldn’t consistently stretch the field or get the ball to his WRs. In the playoff loss to the Giants, Smith completed only 1 pass to a WR. Just 1.
And Alex Smith’s career high for TD passes is 23…which he has now. That’s the same total as Foles, who has more than 200 fewer throws
Enormous difference.
Not talking purely about numbers.
The main reason Alex Smith lost his job was because he would not throw to anyone inside a window. He wasn’t good at stretching the field, either, but that wasn’t the big issue. He basically ignored the WR because beyond being not that great at the time, they weren’t ever making themselves a wide open look like Vernon Davis could. When nobody was wide open, Alex Smith would take big sacks that ended drives. Kaepernick will throw into windows and make deep good deep balls. Kaepernick doesn’t take the sacks. That means more interceptions than Smith, but it also means that the offense can sustain drives a lot better.
Kaepernick is highly overrated. Alex Smith lost his job because of hubris. Jim Harbaugh is the smartest coach in the nfl and he’s out to prove it.
Maybe you need to start Tivoing the games if you’ve never seen Foles throw it into a window. But hey don’t let facts get in the way of a good story right?
I don’t need Tivo. I specifically look for that.
See this is what happens when you go into something looking for a very specific outcome. Look up the term “confirmation bias.”
This is my first post on this or any football related message board. Usually I observe from a far, but shah8 has driven me from my comfortable existence in hiding. My first issue with this post is the ridiculous contradiction. Kaepernick throws more picks but sustains more drives? Did anyone else have to read this twice? Taking a sack in most scenarios, unless obviously third or fourth down, is the very definition of keeping alive. Theres a reasoj they call it “taking” a sack. You will never hear someone say “well (insert qb here) was under some pressure so he made a wise move takingthat interception there”. Lets talk facts mate. Nick didn’t have his best day, but the kid put up some numhers and put his team within striking distance when the game could have gotten out of hand. Nick is our qb, its not going to change in the near future so get over it. What does he need to doto get you off his back) should he have trown for 500 yards in that game? 600? 800? Does he have to break every record in the books while every one of his throws is a frozen rope to the back of the endzone where number 9 is waiting patiently to make the amazing grab one handed then he stays on the field for the pat turns around and blasts the kickoff through the uprights. For kicks maybe the refs will throw us an extra half point so nick can break the record for closest nfl game ever, winning by a half a point. You seem to embellish quite a bit, im just trying to get on your level. Seriously though, the kids young and has done things andrew luck may or may not only dream of doing for the rest of his life. And dont get it twisted, im not saying nick is better than luck, but a 7 td performance isn’t a walk in the park. Ask every qb to ever play the sport on any level. You need to be the fan of a different team buddy. I hear San fran is nice this time of year..
He doesn’t need to throw for 800 yards to impress Shah8, just run a 4.4 and win a game every once in a while.
I can’t wait to see what shah8 has to say when Foles has his jersey in canton, Again!!, after breaking the record for qb rushing yards in a season. “I saw the display, lighting was terrible. A qb with a stronger arm, Kapernick for example, would have received a much better shrine”.
As well as legally change his last name to Webb.
/me shakes my head slowly, thinking you are a troll.
I’m curious; when you put “NFL open” in quotes what is it you mean?
Personally I feel RG3 V. Foles is a much more interesting argument in terms of coaching. Foles has had 2 Coaches who will drill fundamentals (say what you want about Reid he was decent at bringing QB’s along) while RG3 has a coach who isn’t really known for his ability.. as a coach.. for over a decade now. RG3 was drafted to a coach that NEEDED to win now to save his job, Foles was not. RG3 was drafted to a mess of an organization, Foles was not.
Listen I’m sure RG3 has some blame here. At the same time he’s a 21 year old Wunderkind with a hack coach, a severely inexperienced offensive Co., A disaster of a front office, and a megalomaniac owner. It’d be more interesting if the question was how would Foles do on Washington. My guess is terrible.
To be fair, Shanny got Elway and Young to play at elite levels. Both guys were good before he got hold of them, but they thrived with his coaching.
Some players will tell you that Elway ruined Mike. That’s the standard he uses for other QBs and they just can’t play at that level.
Interesting perspective to bring up the coaching and overall situations.
I’m not sure Elway ruined Mike. I think it may have made him exceptionally overconfident. I just know that Shanahan was fired if not for RG3 last year not the other way around.
I Thought that when they drafted Griffin that that was terrible for the kid . It was a desperate move to keep butts in seats.
Shanahan might be a coach you go and get if you have a team in place (a la Gruden in Tampa). You have a QB but you need maybe some direction. I don’t think he’s a coach you build with.
“Would Kelly’s offense look off the charts good with a top talent running it?”
The way you consistently equate “top talent” with “rocket-arm”(and other
physical traits) ignores the fact that the most important part of
QB-play is mental.
Joe Montana shouldnt have been able to win a single game if “rocket-arm” was as important as you make it out to be.
Talent and ability is two different things, Vick has great talent, Stafford as well, Foles not so much. Same in the Bryce Brown vs Polk discussion
A —
I think people sometimes use the words “talent” and “ability” synonymously.
You’re distinction, with accompanying explanation, is well taken.
That is always how I have seen it.
Sure. However, talent can be divided into physical and mental. (and further on…)
What I am saying is that Tommy, among others, seem to be staring themselves blind at the physical traits and equating this with “top talent”.
One more recent example of this is Russell Wilson falling to the third round because of his height. Every other physical and mental box was checked, so too speak.
Still…
The allure of the big, strong, chiseled-jaw, rocket-arm QB is incredibly strong but, more often than not, falling into a man-crush with someone like RG3 does not alway pan out.
“Top talent” can be mental and social aka “leadership” skills.
Just saying.
Could Eli, Flacco or Stafford do better in Chip’s OFF then they are currently? I think so. Would they out perform what Foles has done in the same OFF? I just have to doubt it. Foles strengths include using his noggin, anticipation throws, being efficient and most often making those good decisions to be very careful with the ball.
QB’s with stronger arms I believe tend to gun-sling and have less touch and make more questionable decisions. Running QB’s eventually get beat up and lose their mobility imo. If we could find one with a cannon arm, 4.4 speed and Nick’s head, height and durability.. then yeah.
Maybe Stafford or Flacco would do as well or better. Kelly does really emphasize efficiency and good decision making so maybe he could drive that home with any QB. But if you’re Kelly do you want to put the fine grade sand paper away and pull out the course grit stuff again? Or keep working with the fine grade and be eying the extrafine for the future.
Nick has shown he can do very well in the OFF. I like his leadership and humility. After the QB’s we’ve had, I was ready for a bigger, taller less mobile QB to use the pocket and preserve his durability. He seems to be a smart, really well grounded, accountable, coachable, squeeky clean dude with a team first attitude. I can live with the mistakes now (compared with the mistakes other QB’s are making out there…) so long as I keep seeing improvement and dedication to his craft. That will equal a lot of wins down the road if they continue to draft well and build the team around him.
Don’t forget RG3’s operation patients movement during preseason. The dude needs a reality check and hes getting it. I’m not sure how the guy wouldn’t buy into his own hype. It has been 24/7/365 RG3 coverage since the day the Redskins traded for the #2 pick. No one in this town wanted Andrew Luck. He seems like a good guy, lets see if he can reign his ego in (hopefully not…). I have a feeling being benched for the last 3 weeks and out preformed by Cousins will be his Mike Vick goes to prison moment.
Speaking of comparing Foles to other QBs I have question for you Mr. T Law. I have been wondering this season just how much of Peyton’s success has to do with his athletic talent, and how much has to do with his head. I know Peyton is relying almost exclusively on the later at this stage, but what about before? I mean from the looks of it Nick has a better arm than Peyton now, but what about 5 years ago? Ability to throw off-platform? Create pocket space, etc.?
I’m not insinuating anything by asking that. I am genuinely curious. I think relates directly to the question of weather or not Foles decision making ability makes him a better fit for this offense than any other QB.
What do you expect when the kid walks into the washington redskins. Basically the “Mercenary” team in the NFL. That team is all about money. Overpaying guys. Getting big names. What is the Washington Redskins Character? I don’t think they ever had any from the Owner to the coach to the team.
Well they have pretty much done away with that whole mercenary thing after Fat Albert. I get your point though. I think it had more to do with the media coverage and less to do with the team. Perhaps things would of been different if he went somewhere like Green Bay. Hard to say.
Did they? I bet they go right back to it this year. They need defense and they have no draft. I’d say trading your whole draft for a QB is kind of along the same lines.
I’ll say it. Things would be different if he went to somewhere like Green-Bay. RG3 is a smart kid is has to be hard being coached by someone you’re smarter than. (sorry can’t help but dig shanahan.)
They better spend some money on FAs. They are bad and have been hamstrung by cap penalties. Buying FAs is today’s NFL though. The Bruce Smith, Haynsworth, Archuletta, Brandon Lloyd, etc., etc., etc, contracts are more to what I was referring.
Eagles make some roster moves.
http://eaglesblog.net/2013/12/eagles-make-moves/
Thanks.
Guess the Eagles have always liked Knott more as well? Is he fully healthy along with Goode?
Acho cut?
http://nooooooooooooooo.com/
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/12/16/refo-eagles-vikings-week-15/
/me speaks with the dry tone…
amusing.
Look up Vicks “grade” from that site 🙂 also PFF is one big joke
Just some friendly advice. You seem to be approaching these Foles posts as wanting to “one up” everyone else here. Like it’s a superiority contest. Like you just want people to think you’re smart, not like you actually care that anyone gets smarter from reading your posts. This is part of why you can’t convince anyone and the downvotes keep coming.
Answering how strong a fit Foles is in comparison to other “talented” Qbs depends partly on what you think decision making is. Are there different kinds of good decision making? Are some better fits for a Kelly offense? Can it be significantly developed over time? Do some have more potential or capacity for this development than others? Etc.
Football Decision making is obviously important. I think it’s a trait that works differently than easily quantifiable physical ones. But Foles looks like he has the right kind to me for chip, and I think he can better at this than some of other “talented” Qbs (eg stafford, flacco, or cutler) who might be in the conversation.
He has a great attitude too, which seems to match his coach’s. That’s a good thing in comparison too.
Re: Dr. Franken-Lawlor
T-Law:
You’re right that transplanting the right arm of Flacco or Stafford (or Vick’s left arm) onto Foles — with time enough for the operation to take — likely would have resulted in more TDs.
So I have three questions (which you may never see):
1. Do you want the football of IQ of Flacco or Stafford, or just their arm strength?
2. How many QBs with big arms have the football IQ to execute Kelly’s offense . . . or any NFL offense? To save time, I’m lumping accuracy in with “big arm.”
3. Would you want Drew Brees operating Kelly’s offense? That is, Brees 2013 or Brees 2001-03 (25 TDs 31 INTs).
It’s a nice fantasy.
But it seems so soon to decide that Foles will never have a big enough arm.
Ten years ago, the conventional wisdon was Tom Brady was a slow, noodle-armed game-managing QB propped-up by Bill Belichick’s great New England defenses.
Interesting stat of the week:
– On throws travelling 10 or more yards in the air, Wilson completed
just four of 12 for 68 yards, with no touchdowns and an interception.
No one’s talking about the extremely simplified and easy offensive scheme for Wilson, though. Foles has a game like that, and, well, the reaction after Dallas comes to mind.
People just see all the wow plays he make. Also one thing, do not ever suggest Wilson has the easiest qb job in the nfl to hawks fans, they apparently do not believe it is easy playing qb when you do not have to do anything special
I mean Wilson has to lead the offense to like 14 whole points because of that defense. It’s not easy to do…
yea.
Im not saying Wilson isnt talented and he isnt doing very well in his situation, but Alex Smith has won around the same amount of games per year over last 3 seasons as Wilson.
Wilson might be in the perfect situation for any young QB. He is in a relative small market (outside of that D and the Ducks offense, nobody really pays attention to the northwest), plays with NFLs best D, got a great run game so he can do most of his down field throws off easy reads.
Joe Montana had a noodle arm. It’s more about where your throws land than how fast they got there.
I think Stafford would suck in our offense. Stafford gets away with throwing into multiple coverage not only because of his arm strength but also becacuse of the size of his WRs. He would get picked off trying to do that with our smaller WRs.
Coaching matters. Some of it is on Stafford, some of it is 100% on how he is coached.
I think this is an interesting question though it kind of begs a comment war. Nick didn’t play great this week, especially in the first half. He didn’t play great in the first half of last week either. He’s got obvious issues that come out more the more he plays. On the good side, he’s smart, great decision maker, sees the field well, and gives guys opportunities to make plays by getting them the ball early.
That said he obviously doesn’t have a cannon arm. He’s not super fast, and i think he struggles with accuracy sometimes. We started seeing accuracy issues i think as far back as the Arizona game. I think in this game more so than other games Nick pressed a little b/c we were so far behind all game. Lots of times it looked like there were underneath routes that he didn’t take looking for big plays over the top, b/c we didn’t have a run game those missed plays killed drives. As many have also noted he was indecisive and took unnecessary sacks, sometimes in key situations.
I think Nick thrives in a balanced offense that has a lot of screen / slants and goes over top once in a while. He’s not a gun slinger, he doesn’t have the arm. It’s unclear to me whether he can put the team on his back and win a game. I think Sunday was a test of that — he’ll have plenty more. Next Sunday will be a test of whether we can survive a shootout where he’ll have to make plays and we’ll see. For all his shortcomings he’s only a second year player i think most of the stuff he can improve on with reps so i’m happy to have him.