Outside the Box

Posted: March 15th, 2014 | Author: | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 117 Comments »

I didn’t anticipate the Darren Sproles move since I was thinking in too linear a fashion. He’s a RB. The Eagles are already deep there. Why add an old guy? The Eagles know that Sproles lined up outside the backfield almost 40 percent of the time in 2013 so they looked at him as an offensive weapon and not just a RB. Smart move by them. Dumb by me.

So I was reading Twitter this morning and saw that Jared Allen is still sitting on the market with seemingly little interest. I’ve killed the idea of going after him a few times because he’s a 4-3 guy. But is that me being too linear again?

Jared Allen is a pass rusher. He’s got 10 years under his belt and had double digit sacks in 8 of those years. For the past 7 seasons, he’s been in double figures. That is amazing consistency. The guys knows how to get to the QB. How can you not at least think about him for a minute?

The downside is that he’ll turn 32 in less than a month. He has played in a pretty traditional 4-3 for most of his career so all he knows is lining up at RDE and flying off the edge. He also has benefited from playing in a dome. Most of his sacks come at home. Offenses have to limit what they do with the snap count and that gives him an edge. Allen is still a good pass rusher on the road, but he’s not the same guy.

Allen is highly frustrated right now, as he should be. I still can’t believe the Broncos went for DeMarcus Ware over him. Ware is a 3-4 guy who has injury issues. Allen is a 4-3 pass rushing machine. He would seem to be perfect for Denver, yet they passed on him. Allen has even talked about retiring.

How would he fit on the Eagles? I don’t really know exactly, but we can speculate. You’d have to start Cole at ROLB, but you could use Allen at RDE in all 4-man DL looks. You could also put him at RDE in the 3-3-5 looks. That would mean being very situational, which I’d like to see more of. Seattle didn’t play the same guys all they time. They mixed personnel. That can be negated by the no-huddle, but I think it is worth the risk to do more than the Eagles did in 2013.

Allen isn’t looking for mega-bucks, but he won’t play for peanuts. I don’t know if creating some hybrid role would be worth giving him decent money. Again, this is all just random speculation. I just hate seeing a talented pass rusher sitting there on the market. You can never have too many of those guys on the roster. The Eagles got burned in 2011 when they had Nnamdi, Asante and DRC and there weren’t the right roles for those guys, but I think this would be different. CBs tend to be prima donnas. Trent Cole is the antithesis of that. So is Connor Barwin. I don’t know Allen well, but the image you see on TV is that of a guy that isn’t all about “me and I”. He seems like the kind of guy who could be happy in an odd situation, as long as he was getting a chance to hit QBs and win some games.

I doubt anything happens with the Eagles, but I do want to learn from the Sproles situation. Sometimes we get too caught up in specific labels. If a guy is really talented and versatile, you can find a way to use him. The problem here is that Allen doesn’t appear to be all that versatile so that may be why the Eagles haven’t talked to him at all.

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  • ICDogg

    The problem for me is that we already have 3 of those kinds of guys… who are perhaps best at being 4-3 ends.

    • ICDogg

      That being said, GB did sign Peppers, who apparently always wanted to play in a 4-3.

      • Jerry Pomroy

        They also are moving Raji over to play a more traditional NT, rather than DE.

        Also it’s been reported that DEN had the same deal on table for Allen that they ultimately gave Ware. My only question is when did the Allen blurbs of being content with just retiring come out? Was that before or after Ware was cut from DAL? If Allen gave Elway the feeling that he wasn’t hungry, then it’s possible that could’ve been the reason they passed on Allen for Ware. Elway knows all about the window of opportunity closing, so if Ware showed enthusiasm for a ring & Allen was mulling retirement, I’d go for Ware too if I was Elway.

        • shah8

          CT out there is that Elway was using Allen to get the preferred contract with Ware.

          • ICDogg

            Yeah, I wouldn’t be surprised if they played one off the other.

          • Jerry Pomroy

            I guess my other point is, I’m not interested in Allen in the least. Especially when the dollar figure was in the 3yr/$30M. Square peg, round hole, lots of money for a situational guy. Might as well take a peek at Schofield on the cheap if your looking for a situational pass rusher.

          • phillychuck

            While I’m not interested in Allen either, if we were to sign him I’d trust Chip to find a use for him that would justify the price…I just don’t want to commit that much money to an older guy.

            On another front, I think we all need to back off the vitriol a little bit in the comments–this is the only decent Eagles discussion on the ‘net, in large part because it’s usually thoughtful and polite. Usually.

          • Jerry Pomroy

            I thought I was. Could you please explain where I was impolite?

          • phillychuck

            Not directed at you at all, Jerry. Lots of posts in this thread have pushed the boundaries (IMHO), but not yours.

        • ICDogg

          Raji should always have been a nose. Not sure why they messed with that.

    • TommyLawlor

      Allen is far better than some of the other guys (Curry, Graham) so while your point is true, it’s also a bit of a false comparison. Also, I expect Graham to be dealt this offseason, which means there will be a spot open.

      • ICDogg

        fair enough

      • GEAGLE

        Allen’s agent askedf the broncos for the ware deal..aka 20mil in Guarentees lol if we were willing to pay that, we would have agressively went after MJ who didn’t get that much more GUARENTEED money, is the ideal fit, and at an age where he can be a long term solution…20mil for two yeas of an4-2-5 subpackage DE, or what was it, 24 mil for 4 years of Micheal Johnson being the 3down answer to our prayers? Our interest in MJ died quickly, and he ended up signing a fair contract…yet we are giving 20mil to a short term Nickle pass rusher? No shot

  • shah8

    Again, Jared Allen is essentially a rich man’s Babin. Do Not Want.

    • shah8

      Wasn’t always consequentially marginal, but all he really does is fly off the edge. That means no run support, no contain, no nuttin’.

      • Anders

        Allen is one of the best run stopping DEs in the NFL.

        • shah8

          **chortle**

          • Neil

            If you have nothing to add but snark, people would respect you more if you said nothing at all.

          • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

            /me upvotes

          • A_T_G

            2010 Allen was bad against the run. 2011 and 2012 Allen was ranked 7th and 8th against the run, with a 85% stop rate.

            And, bless you?

            http://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/15318/jared-allen

          • shah8

            Not inclined to go deep into the woods about the FO stats. BTW, those rankings are not his only run rankings, if I read that graph right.

          • shah8

            Also, apparently, if you have pro football focus premium, you can get to look at ugly run defense numbers, but I can’t see that directly.

          • Anders

            PFF is crap and shouldnt be used in argument at all.

          • shah8

            And FO aren’t? How so?

          • Anders

            Because 1 has proven to have correlation with winning where the other is a subjective thing? I find it funny how often PFF has a complete other view on a game than Tommy who has actually learned how to scout opposed to the PFF guys.

          • A_T_G

            FO stats are certainly not perfect, but they are a step above making a vague, qualifier filled denouncement and then supporting it with a throat clearing.

          • shah8

            The throat clearing was in response to a statement “Allen is one of the best run stopping DEs in the NFL.”

            That is manifestly not true. Had that been true, Allen would have already had a new contract in hand. Had that been true, Zimmer would go down on his hands and knees to beg Allen to come back, since he’s all about stopping the run first and getting to the QB as a result. Had that been true, there wouldn’t be constant complaining from Vikings fans about the run lanes and the screens he gives. Allen wasn’t always a liability against the run, but he is a selfish player (no, not a “gritty” type) who gets worse (playing as a part of a team defense) when things are going bad.

            You don’t even have to trust me to know what I’m talking about as a Vikings fan. It’s all out there in electronic media.

            Some out of the box ideas are cool. Most are pretty bad ideas. This is a bad idea. I’m not sure he even would be willing to sign with the Eagles, anyways, for a number of reasons. Money, scheme, etc…

          • shah8

            And if I’m a little short, it’s because some Eagles fans can get such fixed ideas in their heads. I had been thinking all day (yeah, kinda pathetic logical me–but to be fair, this was when I was enjoying a long bike ride) about how much sheer lack of worth there is in considering trading Bryce Brown, and just how many people just repeat it, despite how nonsensical this is. A trade could still happen, but it would be much more surprising than some people apparently understand, because nominally, this would be a really bad idea. And no amount of logical reasoning, like, oh, if Kelly likes Polk so much, wouldn’t he give Polk a lot more touches than he has?, works.

            And just yesterday, when Joe Bussell sez that he’d take Bryce Brown over 20-25 starting NFL running backs, in response to some of that nonsense (we got Sproles, now we trade Brown), it started a new pile-on… **sigh** Well, Bussell knew not to feed the monster after the stick-poking…

    • TommyLawlor

      @ Shah…

      They might be similar in style, but you’re wildly underselling 2 critical points. Allen is consistently productive. Also, Allen consistently beats LTs.

      Babin is up and down with production. He also feasts on RTs.

      • shah8

        If we ran a 4-3 or even a 4-3 Under, this might not be way out in lalaland. We don’t.

        Allen isn’t really a ROLB, and using him purely as a tactical pass rush specialist is going to get Davis burnt.

        I did say, after all, a rich man’s Babin.

        • Anders

          If you have the time, go watch everyone of Trent Cole’s sacks and tell me Allen couldnt play that role better

          • shah8

            trent cole is an every down player (who’s also more versatile than allen)

  • Mac

    Thinking way outside the box here… If we have plans to move Graham and or Curry for pick(s) in this draft, then I think it could make sense to bring in a guy like Allen as a pass rush specialist. Seem doubtful, but we need someone who has a nose for sacking the QB on this defense even if he only plays a limited specialist role.

    • shah8

      Alright, let’s just think for a minute…

      Are you saying Jared Allen would be better than either of the DE in a 3-4 system? No? Hey-el No?

      Alright, let’s put him in as ROLB. There’s nothing that can go wrong with that look!

      **muffled coughing sounds**

      • Mac

        I’m saying that we would be drafting at least 1 ROLB this year. Odds are that guy won’t pan out, but minimally will need time to develop. So we head into the year with Cole as ROLB and Allen as a 3rd down specialist. Essentially, in this case we get older and younger at the same time.

        Trading the guys who don’t fit for draft picks that might fit, and picking up a stop gap situational guy on a short deal that only involves money instead of draft picks.

        I get that you don’t like Allen, but my psychological impression of Allen is that he has the grit to do the dirty work, and enjoys mixing it up in the game of football. I mean, I still remember that one play where he straight up punched a former teammate and friend in the nuts. Whereas, with Babin you essentially had an over sized sack seeking fairy. I think Allen fits the mentality that is being built around here… and having said that I also think that Graham and Curry fit, and that it’s more likely that we just keep those guys rather than trade them.

        • shah8

          Uh huh…

          Let’s use those little grey cells some more, shall we? Is Allen at all a threat to cover anyone? Or even profitably be involved in stunts? If Allen is in the game, doesn’t that make the OC and QB’s job *easier*, when he’s just the third down pass rushing specialist?

          Moreover, what do you think would happen with certain teams, like, say, the Saints? Allen would get stuck and not get substituted and Chipwagon will write really unfair articles about how Allen is the suxors…

          As far as the grit stuff? Save it for QB adulation. Anyone can actually google this information, and it’s not like the complain I have with Allen isn’t a widespread one among the Vikings community.

          • Jernst

            god you’re awful … and super demeaning for no reason

        • A Roy

          I usually don’t agree with shah, and I won’t use his sanctimonious attitude, but we already have two guys that are 4-3 DE trying to play ROLB. Adding Allen could make a little sense if we trade Brandon Graham, but I’d rather find someone who’s played the position, can cover a TE and is young enough to be around for awhile. If we played a 1-Gap 3-4, he would be somewhat effective in the DE rotation, but not for the kind of money he’ll get.

          • Mac

            And here is my reply to that line of thinking. Who is this guy who can do it all that everyone wants so badly? I look at the free agent list and don’t see him.

      • Anders

        because we only played 3-4 looks last year, it wasnt like we had some 3-3 or 4-2 looks with Trent Cole at one of the DEs.

  • Cafone

    It seems that what the Eagles keep stressing is system fit, and even ignoring his age, I don’t see Allen fitting this system.

    That said, there’s nothing wrong with specialists, especially if Graham or Curry get traded. And if they look at him as a 1 year guy, then age is no big deal and they could give him a decent salary without impacting the cap long term.

  • ACViking

    Re: A Jenkins Question

    T-Law:

    Why do you think the Birds’ contract w/ Jenkins is only a 3-year deal? From press accounts, the 3rd-year numbers seem real — not inflated for the media.

    Jenkins will be turning 29 when his contract expires. So he’d still be in his prime (hopefully).

    With all the props Kelly gave Jenkins — versatile, a leader, etc. — why not just the 3 years?

    It’s not as though safeties reputed by Kelly to be as good as Jenkins grow on trees.

    • D3FB

      That was probably a decision from the Jenkins camp. If he plays well and becomes a free agent at 29, he has a better chance of getting one last big contract. If he’s 30 he would likely have to settle for 1 or 2 year deals. This is of course assuming he performs over the next three years.

      • ACViking

        D3FB:

        That’s also my suspicion.

        On the other hand, why not — if you’re the Eagles — put in a couple of big back-end years (4 & 5) that would be fair compensation for a premium safety, but also allow the team to walk away?

        In the end, I suppose it’s what you said: Jenkins’ camp said “no” — they want shot at big guaranteed money. ‘Cause he didn’t get this go ’round.

    • TommyLawlor

      Yeah, I’m sure the Eagles would have preferred a longer deal, but this gives Jenkins the chance to get one more good deal. Plus, the cap will have really gone up by that point. Keeps him very motivated, which is a pretty good thing.

    • Jernst

      I have to assume that despite being the “best fit” by being a versatile player, he is far from ideal and someone that we will look to improve upon in the next couple years through the draft. Jenkins is versatile and a significant upgrade on what we had out there last year, but he’s still mediocre.

    • GEAGLE

      Don’t assume it was our doing. Sometime players his age like to hit FA again before they turn 30 to have a better chance at cashing in on one last pay day…we only gave Maclin a one year deal, but that was Macs doing. We tried to get him on a Multi year contract…it’s possible we wanted 4years and he insisted on 3yrs.

      • Sifter

        It may not have been our doing, don’t know unless someone asks Howie I guess.

        I would point out though that Chung signed a 3-yr deal last year. Both Jenkins and Chung had vaguely familiar circumstances – higher draft picks who weren’t extended by their original team. May be that 3 years is the Howie standard for players who haven’t quite proven themselves yet.

  • ACViking

    Re: Jared Allen

    T-Law:

    He reminds me (not in character but in production) of Charles Haley.

    If the Eagles were in the same position the Cowboys were in the early ’90s, I think Jared Allen would be a steal as a 3rd-down/long yardage pass-rush specialist.

    For the same reason, I think you point about the Broncos is spot-on.

    But, alas, Allen might be too old a pony to want to learn the OLB tricks.

    • TommyLawlor

      I wouldn’t bring Allen in here to be a primary OLB. I’d focus on getting him DE snaps from the 4-2-5 and 3-3-5.

      • austinfan

        You’re basically talking replacing Graham, not sure Allen would be effective in Curry’s role – does he have any experience lining up inside in a 4-2?. Not enough snaps to make it worth his cost or to entice him to come.

    • iceberg584

      I was thinking of that same comparison as I read Tommy’s post. In a lot of ways, Haley was the final piece to the puzzle that was the 1990s Dallas dynasty.

      • shah8

        The thing though, with Charles Haley, was that he was the final piece on a *stacked* Dallas defense, and he wasn’t the sole serious pass rush threat.

        • iceberg584

          Yeah, I was more just reminiscing over that particular acquisition (which did much to shift the NFC balance of power from SF to Dallas), than trying to say that the 1992 Cowboys defense is analogous to the 2014 Eagles defense.

    • BobSmith77

      Haley fell off a cliff though after ’95 at 31, realized it and retired the following season, and returned in ’98 and ’99 with the 49ers largely because of legacy ties even though he was completely shot.

  • Jerry Pomroy

    We’re trying to eliminate/reduce square pegs. Why would we add another in Jared Allen?

    I’m beginning to think that the Eagles plan is to continue to build slowly and intelligently in hopes of peaking right at that point in time where you’ll see the likes of a Peyton, Brady, Brees no longer as potential roadblocks. Whether that means retirement, or their play dropping off significantly that they are shells of their former selves. Regardless, the playing field and path to get to the highest level becomes somewhat easier once those 3 are no longer in the way. Yes, you’ve got the likes of SEA & 49ers rising up in recent years. But right now you’ve got 3 teams going all in to win it all, at all costs. Once those QBs are done, those 3 teams will be in rebuild mode. Leaving a clearer path for teams on the rise.

    • Poppi

      Agree with you Jerry. I am wondering about Dion Jordan – he’s young, familiar with Kelly and gets much needed coaching and physical training program. Could be a great fit to flex DE/OLB. Dolphins need everything so many trade possibilities.

      • iceberg584

        I don’t think the price is right yet. Are we really willing to throw away a 1st round pick on a guy who, let’s face it, has been a bust so far in the NFL? Maybe after another year of him being a square peg in Miami, we can get him for something closer to a bargain. I’m just very uncomfortable parting with a 1st round pick for a player who has played a full year and not performed to anywhere near expectations, regardless of the explanations.

        • GEAGLE

          I can’t even express to you how fast Tom gamble and Chip would push to trade the 22nd pick if that’s what it took to get Dion here…

        • D3Center

          You’re right with the price not being right but for the wrong team. The price isn’t right for the Dolphins cause if they trade Dion this year they take a massive cap hit.

        • Ryan

          Next year Djax for dion and a 1st or 2nd rounder Depending On Both Their Play This year. I love Jackson but if we grab a good WR in draft this year I could see it happening and be OK with it.

    • BobSmith77

      Manning and Brady are in the AFC and have little/no effect or relevance on the Eagles unless they match up during the regular season. Brees does but the Saints have been the next tier down from the Seahawks/49ers the past 2 years.

      I don’t quite completely understand that line of thinking though either with this roster. McCoy will be entering his 6th year next year. Jackson is in his 7th. Already in their primes now and a good chance Jackson has already peaked/will peak this year. O-line is old too with Herremans as a guy who is long-in-tooth and past his days as a quality starter and Peters and Mathis both in their mid-30s.

      I know it would be incredibly unpopular in Philly but I would mind at all if the Eagles take an OL in the first round if they really love a G who can step for Herremans and possibly play RT the following year. 3 of the last 4 games the Eagles played their o-line lost the battle at the line of scrimmage and badly in the ‘Boys/Saints playoff game.

      It wasn’t a bad FA but hard-pressed to see this team is notably better off either than the one that ended the season either. Yeah Jenkins is an upgrade over Chung but they still issue/opening at the other safety spot since it is basically Wolf & ???. Call it a wash with a possible slight upgrade. Besides that they signed Carroll who is really a depth guy.

      Sproles is an interesting element that gives the Eagles a bit more offensive flexibility but if he doesn’t upgrade the PR/KR games then his overall impact is kind of limited.

      A lot of that really depends on having another really successful draft and those guys being immediate contributors. Also need dumb luck/fortune on the injury front again. Eagles were #4 in the terms of games lost to starters last year (29) and 16 of those were due to Maclin. Eagles’ starters last year were on the field the entire year without having to deal with too many depth issues.

  • mheil

    Do you know anyone the Eagles targeted that didn’t sign because they didn’t want to play in Philadelphia, or for whom they were outbid? I remember last year they lost keenan lewis to NO even though they made the best offer because he wanted to play for his home town team.

    • TommyLawlor

      Good question. Haven’t heard of anyone turning the team down so far.

      • ManuManu

        Didn’t Mike Mitchell turn us down?

        • http://www.corcommunity.com/ theycallmerob

          I thought it was the other way around

          • A_T_G

            Mitchell Mike turned us down?

    • GEAGLE

      We had interest in Corey Graham but not at 4yrs 16mil, and we didn’t have the starting Nickle corner position to offer him that the bills gave him

    • Flyin

      Chip seems to have built on Reid’s respect for the team. Every player that has come in, rookie, FA, and trades, has praised the organization, During the end of the season, players stated they never felt better. And just positive about the team.

      As Sproles said, he’s a “players coach”. Chip doesn’t just have a football mind, he knows how to send the message. I feel we are experiencing something special. In no way am I guaranteeing a SB. I just feel peaceful about everything the Eagles are doing.

      If a player doesn’t want to play in Philly… they are not the right fit.

    • jshort

      W.C. Fields….hehe…How far back you talking? Remember reading an article on this site (with in the last year) about a DB from NO. who’s signing was in the bag. Got homesick and signed back home…according to the article that player might have cost us the SB (2004/5 season.

  • HazletonEagle

    Tommy, take this whole write up and replace Allens name with Van Noy.

    “Sometimes we get too caught up in specific labels. If a guy is really talented and versatile, you can find a way to use him.”

    Van Noy is a guy youve been too linear with in the past. He can move all over the place in this defense. He is really talented and versatile.

    • Anders

      Isnt that what he has always been saying? All he has said is that he would be of a Barwin type and that he does not have great pass rush skills.

      • HazletonEagle

        Well, pre-senior bowl Ive read him say he should be of interest as an ILB. He did seem to change his opinion some as the pre-draft process has gone on, but still labels him as kind of a Barwin clone which is true. From what I understand, Tommy thinks Van Noy would back up Barwin, and thinks we need more of a pass rushing threat opposite him. He has been very linear in that thinking.
        Howie has already said they are looking to double up on that skill set (Barwins) for their other outside linebacker position. There is no reason why they wouldnt both start.
        Ive not yet seen Tommy actually consider him as a possibility to start opposite Barwin. Hes been locked in on Van Noy as an ILB or Barwin backup.

        • Insomniac

          KVN has one move and his coverage skills are way overblown. Watch tape on him and use your own opinion. I wouldn’t touch Van Noy since he’s in the same class as Pryor. Not as athletic as I thought for someone deemed as ” one of the best athletes on the field”.

          • HazletonEagle

            I have watched a ton of Van Noy. Not just this season but also his junior year as well. I dont care what his combine numbers showed. When you watch him you see someone who can get absolutely anywhere he needs to be on the field. Sideline to sideline, offensive backfield to defensive backfield. Someone with a below average combine like his shouldnt be able to do that. Yet, he does.
            I recognize that his value is no longer in the 1st round after having only 4 sacks and then an uninspiring workout. But I maintain the opinion that whoever drafts him will be getting an elite playmaker.

          • A_T_G

            This is an example of the discussions I come here to read. I don’t follow college enough to have an informed opinion either way, but I feel like I understand the views on each side better now. Thank you.

          • HazletonEagle

            If you were one of the people who is down on Van Noy, I hope Ive been able to enlighten you on how much there is to like about him.
            I know his combine workout was nothing to write home about, but when you see a player on tape go sideline to sideline, make plays behind the LOS and down the field in coverage, you can throw those workout numbers out the field when you realize theres nowhere on the field that he cant get to if he needs to be there.
            If there is a player with the passion for the game (you can see it on the field when you watch him), the work ethic and toughness (played through a shoulder injury that needed surgery his sophomore year and came back to have that monster junior season) to overcome the mediocre workout, he is that guy.
            You can get him in round 2, and he will produce like the top 15-20 pick he would have been in last years class had he declared.
            He is a team player evidenced by his coming back for the senior year and taking a role that limited him as a pass rusher cutting in to his stats. Risking the shoulder not holding up after he could have declared following his great junior year rather than going for the money in the NFL.
            And he is everything the eagles say they are looking for at the position. 6’3” length with coverage and rush skills. Also a good special teams player. I know he has at least 2 blocks though I couldnt find those stats online.

          • Insomniac

            Good college player that won’t replicate his success unless he’s behind a line like the Bengals, Bills, Niners, and Seahawks.

            I don’t buy his dropping back in coverage excuse, not to mention he just looks lost half the time in coverage anyway. Once he lost Ziggy to the draft and teams became aware of him, he just dropped off a cliff in production. His motor is mediocre, he doesn’t chase anyone down unless someone has already slowed the guy down and gives him time to gang tackle. You can see his lack of speed running sideline to sideline. Very inconsistent run defender. The only thing Van Noy does well is use his hands and run around OL that aren’t as good as him.

            You’re giving Van Noy too much credit for what his teammates does.

          • HazletonEagle

            youre sorely mistaking if you think teams didnt know about Van Noy while Ansah was there. I was watching Van Noy since week 1 of his junior year. Ansah didnt break out till the 2nd half of that season. If I knew about Van Noy (Im an east coast non-BYU fan) then so did other college teams. He was making plays before Ansah was.
            The BYU coaches used to allow Van Noy to free lance a bit because they trusted him that much to get home. That was my only concern with him- whether or not he can play structured within a scheme. So to me, his 4 sack season is actually very engouraging. It put my mind at ease about whether or not he can play disciplined football. He isnt a me guy. He can do whatever is asked of him. If he needs to be a pass rusher, hell get you double digits. If he needs to cover, hell get you PDs and INTs. Yet still had 17 TFLs this past season!

          • Insomniac

            Wait what? Why are you comparing apples to oranges? I brought up Ansah because he’s what kept Van Noy from being schemed against. “But he’s a play maker, look at his stats!!”, well a lot of college overachievers had a good stat sheet.

            I’m going to disagree with your opinion of him being “elite play maker” because what he shows on tape makes me think he’ll just be “solid enough” at the next level.

          • HazletonEagle

            Why is comparing a 3-4 OLB to other 3-4 OLBs in the same draft considered to be comparing apples to oranges?
            I just showed you how much playmaking ability he has compared to the other top prospects at his position. He has significantly outperformed every other player at his position in this draft with the exception of Mack. Though I specifically did not include the stats of Clowney and Barr since they havent played as many years as Van Noy. So as to avoid comparing Apples to Oranges.

        • Anders

          Saying ILB there can do multiple things is not a bad thing is it? We still call Jenkins a S even if he can do several things.

          KVN would be an ILB in your scheme you can be move around and do a lot of the same stuff as Barwin and Kendricks.

          Fact is we need upgrade at both Ryans and Cole’s spot and KVN would be an upgrade over Ryans but not sure he would be a pass rush upgrade over Cole

          • HazletonEagle

            I dont know if Van Noy can play DeMeco’s spot. Kendricks is the blitzer who needs to be kept clean to make plays. DeMeco is more physical with blockers and Im not sure thats Van Noys game. He is exactly like another Kendricks which is why I want him so badly. Kendricks was one of the only playmakers on our defense last year and Id love to have another guy in the LB corps that can fly around and make plays like him. Van Noy can. But our run D up the middle would be really weak if those 2 were our ILBs. It would be a bad idea to replace Ryans with him.
            Van Noy had something like 14 sacks in his junior year when he was actually asked to rush the passer more. He needs to add some moves, but his ability is more than adequate. He did a lot more coverage this year and thats why he didnt have the sack numbers.

          • Anders

            There is no difference between the two ILB spots. So having 2 Kendricks would be perfect if the 2nd Kendricks had better size.

            Same with OLB spots, S, CB, OT or WR, there is no difference, a player has to be able to play all the spots, not just one (aka the CB has to play both sides, the WR has to play outside and the slot etc.)

  • A_T_G

    Thinking in such a linear manner was out of line.

    • Baloophi

      Now THAT’S some circular reasoning.

      • Rambler

        That comment is a little too square for me. TRI(a different)ANGLE.

    • nicolajNN

      I’m not sure if this is really bad or really good. I kind of want to laugh and face-palm at the same time. Regardless, I suspect that a rimshot played as you posted it

      • Andy124

        When in doubt, just laugh.

      • Ryan

        You should probably slap your face

  • GEAGLE

    While I get the point in theory, Sproles and Allen are apples and oranges. You would have to create a position for Allen..Sproles is a stylistic piece we didn’t have and have speculated about adding Dat or McLuster because we didn’t have him. having to create a role for Allen is different then giving Kelly a piece who he has been very successful with in the past. lamicheal James was a key component of the success of those Oregon Offense..guess what James nickname was? “baby Sproles”…what in the world is Chip going to do with the real Sproles? He already has a playbook filled with juicy ways to use him. Either by formation,motion!Stacking him behind a bigger Ertz. Chip is a master at creating the space needed for a guy like Sproles to thrive…don’t care how many running backs you have, he is too much of the perfect fit not to go out and aquire. And if we haven’t noticed, FIT matters to this regime… I’m still laughing at the NFL for allowing Chip to get his hands on Sproles….he is tailor made for Chip….that’s very different then thinking about creating a position for Jared Allen IMO but I get it, big names are sexy..

    • Anders

      Looking at how Cole was used last year. I could see Allen taken some of those snaps in nickle.

      • GEAGLE

        Sure, if we were actually down to pay 20mil in Guarentees for a Nickle pass rusher. Not going to happen

        • A_T_G

          I think part of the premise is that FAs drop their asking price pretty quickly as FA enters the second week. No one is suggesting we give a nickel rusher 20 million.

          I think there is almost no chance of us signing him, but that is part of the territory with outside the box ideas.

          Besides, I’d expect that you know pretty well that when you guess at FA signings you are wrong much more often than you are right.

          • GEAGLE

            Normally I would understand that premise…but I get the impression that he will retire if someone doesn’t meet his price

          • A_T_G

            Sproles was going to be cut. That was public knowledge before FA started. So public, in fact, that he received interest from a number of teams, Eagles included. When they saw the interest he was getting the Saints changed their mind about cutting him and instead said they would take trade offers. He was on the market from the start.

        • Anders

          If we signed Allen it would most like be 2 years 24 mill with first season guaranteed

      • Tumtum

        Also one thing not mentioned is Cole makes a good bit of money himself. So when you do give Allen that “okay but not great” money, instead of having your money on the field at the same time, half is on the bench.

  • A_T_G

    From the title, I was expecting an article about how we should be signing Joe Webb to play safety. He has mastered the role of QB and mastered the role of receiver, learning to position himself between the former and the latter should take him an afternoon.

  • Andy124

    I mean, heck if nobody else wants him and he’s happy to come here to play in sub-packages on a contract suitable to such a role, I think we can spare the roster spot. Bonus points for the enormous chip that would put on his shoulder. It just doesn’t seem particularly realistic to me, and I wouldn’t be in favor of signing him to a contract befitting a much larger role than ‘sub-package guy’.

    • Tumtum

      Big ifs are accepting and gadget role and a contract that reflects that. Sure if he would be on board with that, sign em up! Ain’t gonna happen though.

  • austinfan

    Jared Allen coming out of college:
    6’6 265 [4.81 1.72 13 4.36 7.15 33 10'0]
    Not exactly LB material then, and ten years later?

    • Flyin

      did you read what Tommy wrote?

      • austinfan

        You have to be wary of tweeners at his age, it’s not like Curry who can remake himself into a 3-4 one gap DE, Allen would be limited in the roles he can play.

        Seattle can use these guys because they’re similar to Baltimore in running a 4-3 hybrid, they use an Elephant (a role for fast “wide 9″ type DEs) and situational one gap DTs.

        Unless Davis wants to revamp his scheme, Allen would have limited snaps. Cole was able to move to OLB because he could drop 10 lbs and get quicker, and by the second half of the season was comfortable in that role, but Curry, who is physically similar to Allen, couldn’t handle OLB. And Graham has shown himself to be too stiff for anything but a pass rush role, and look how few snaps he got.

        Doesn’t make sense to change what you’re doing and develop young players in your scheme to accommodate a veteran on his last legs. Why Denver wanted Ware over Allen is beyond me unless they’re planning to go 3-4 with Ware and Miller at OLB. Allen is the better in-line pass rusher.

        • Jerry Pomroy

          Kinda my point. If he were 5yrs younger, it’d be a different story. If he literally understood the situation as it stands now and said I absolutely want to be an Eagle, I’m willing to play for peanuts. It would be something to consider.

          What some people need to understand is (not you in particular), you can’t just latch yourselves onto the biggest names without actually thinking it through. Allen is a great pass rusher, yes. He’s played DE for 10yrs…10yrs! You can’t just take that guy and say here you go bub, play ROLB in our 2 gap 3-4 defense. It just doesn’t work that way. If you stick him at DE in our base, his job requirements change drastically. They don’t just fly up field. They’re required to plug gaps first & foremost. So the ONLY logical option would be as the DE in our sub packages with 4 down linemen. Are you gonna pay Allen an avg of $10M/yr to be a sub package pass rush specialist? Hell no. Not even close.

          So unless Chip & Davis see something that we cannot that makes him a fit to what we do (keywords: what we do), then it just isn’t gonna happen.

    • Anders

      That is perfect LB numbers.

      • Tumtum

        Sort of what I was thinking..

  • Tumtum

    I have always sort of liked Allen’s personality, but I would make no bones that guy wants to be front and center. I remember the Vikings were using him to promote to fans the idea of a new stadium. He was going to meet and greets with weathly purple fans. Nothing bad about it… just not a guy that looks like he is willing to ride pine.

    Also if I were him and I was going to take less money than I felt I was worth I would make sure the team was a perfect fit or a great chance to win a championship. The guy has made his money. He needs to build his legacy or win a championship. I guess he has a better shot than 20+ other teams of winning here, but the odds arn’t great and his legacy would not be done any favors. The Giants seem like a good fit TBH.

  • BobSmith77

    Why is there a perception that there is a huge difference between Allen home/road production?

    Yeah there was last year but he had better numbers on the road in ’12 and it was basically a wash in ’11.

    NFL at times has almost gotten too obsessed with age & avoiding older players in FA. Allen has been incredibly durable, productive, and hasn’t been linked to major issues in the locker room/off-the-field troubles.

    Just don’t see him being a good fit in this defense though & imagine he is still looking for a full-time role along with the guaranteed dollars that come with it.

    • D3FB

      Allen is apparently considered to be a “locker room lawyer” which probably doesn’t mesh well with Chips ideology.

  • GermanEagle

    Why haven’t we discussed Anthony Spencer yet?

    • Neil

      I was wondering this too, but he is pretty old and was basically a one-season wonder.

      • GermanEagle

        Agree. Still a little surprised he hasn’t found a team yet. Must be the money, money…

  • Buge Halls

    Please, no more 4-3 guys that are pushed into a 3-4 role that they can’t effectively play. We’ve already got a defense full of those guys! Here’s an “out-of-the-box” idea – find some guys that actually have experience playing defensive line/linebacker in a 3-4 defense! You know, like an actual nose tackle!

    • Neil

      None of those guys are around, at least of anything close to Allen’s calibre.

      • Buge Halls

        Then why sign somebody that doesn’t fit the scheme and is only going to play on passing downs to a $30+ million dollar contract? That makes no sense to me – just to get the “NAME” guy. As I said, we’ve already got two or three RDEs trying to play ROLB and it isn’t working to well. Hold off singing an aging veteran that doesn’t fit the scheme and draft some kids that do. Address the backup QB situation – after Vick leaves town!

        • Neil

          Well, Tommy didn’t mention anything about money. If he really wants that much, you definitely pass. If we could get him for 5-6 million dollars a year (maybe unrealistic) it might not be so bad.