Nuts and Bolts
Posted: January 3rd, 2015 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 440 Comments »Now that we know the news, let’s examine what it means a bit more. Howie Roseman is out as GM and Chip Kelly will get to hire someone to help him run the personnel side of things. What actually is going to happen?
Kelly will hire his version of Tom Heckert. The guy won’t come in to be the GM. He’ll probably be given the title “Player Personnel Director”. This guy will do all the dirty work of dealing with scouting reports and putting together the draft board. He will constantly keep track of NFL transactions so the Eagles have an up to date list of the top available free agents at all times. This work is time consuming and isn’t something a coach can do.
Kelly is going to be the decision-maker. It is up to his new PPD to give him all the information so he can make decisions and figure out what he wants to do. But wait…couldn’t Howie Roseman have done this? Yes, and it is what happened to a certain extent. The difference is that Roseman also had a strong say in what happened. The new PPD will have his own opinions, but he won’t be a decision-maker. He will clearly be “Kelly’s guy”.
Heckert and Andy Reid worked well together with this set-up for several years. Eventually Heckert wanted more power and left the team so he could go be the GM in Cleveland and run his own show.
Kelly will likely hire an up and coming personnel guy or an older guy who needs a job. Either way, he’ll want someone who is happy to be the #2 guy. I’m working on a list of potential candidates. I’ll have that posted Sunday or Monday.
The most interesting aspect of this for me is trying to figure out what Kelly wants to be different. How did he and Roseman differ when making plans and decisions? I always felt one of Roseman’s strengths was his ability to adapt. He brought in a variety of players in a variety of ways. He found 3-4 guys and Wide-9 guys. I never got the feeling he was dogmatic about things having to be done a certain way. We saw him trade up and trade back. He was willing to be creative and adjust to the situation at hand.
But clearly Kelly felt something was holding back his vision for the team. He now has total control and makes all the key decisions. Jeff Lurie said this about Kelly and how things went down.
“There were no demands, no threats – quite the contrary – he was passionate, engaged and articulated a dynamic and clear vision on how this fully integrated approach will work. We look forward to seeing it come to life over time.”
Kelly came to the Eagles knowing his Oregon ideas would need to be integrated into the NFL way of doing things. Kelly must feel that the new set-up will help him build the team the way he truly wants it. I don’t know what this means exactly. Kelly might be more aggressive with going after players he covets. Maybe he pursues a trade for Dion Jordan. Maybe Kelly goes all out and puts some mega-deal together to go after Marcus Mariota (which I still see as a near impossibility…nobody wants to drop from pick 1 to pick 20).
More than likely, the differences will be subtle to those of us on the outside. But they will be clear to Kelly and that’s all that matters. He knows what he wants and now can go get the players to try and bring his vision to life.
I’ll cover the risks of this move in another post. I’m an optimist by nature and I’m more fascinated with how it can go right more than how it can go wrong. Kelly is a smart man. He didn’t win some petty power struggle for the sake of getting to say “I’m the man!!!” Kelly wants to build an elite team. He felt this was necessary for that to happen. You can bet Kelly has plans, for how to go about hiring his PPD and for what he wants to do in the offseason. I’m excited to see how this unfolds.
I know some people don’t like giving all the power to one person. The truth is that it doesn’t matter if you go with that set-up or if you use the model of a strong GM and strong coach. The key is hiring the right people to bring the plan to life. Bill Parcells won 2 Super Bowls while working with a great GM in George Young. Bill Walsh won 3 Super Bowls while running his own show. We’ve seen organizations with a very balanced power structure fail miserably.
To me, this is simple. If you think Chip Kelly is special, and I do, you give him what he wants. I think Kelly has the knowledge, vision and management skills to run the show. He’s not your typical coach that lives and dies with a voluminous playbook. Kelly already does things with Sports Science that other coaches would delegate away. I think Kelly can absolutely handle this.
Will it work? We have to wait and see on that. I know I’m excited to find out.
_
I think it probably comes down more to egos and personality more than ability at doing one’s job. Even if Roseman was doing a good job providing Kelly with the types of players he needs, Kelly might not respect his opinions because of his lack of a traditional background. Roseman’s personality could also just grate on Kelly.
On the nose
This, and possibly a Roseman overreach, when one considers the whole FO tired of Foles leak.
I’m not convinced this was ever a thing. Most good teams research QB options all the time. Roseman could have been scouting guys like Mariiota, Winston, and Hundley heavily and somehow that morphed into “Eagles not satisfied with Foles, looking for a new QB”.
Quite possible. Depends if the comments actually includes the stuff about Foles that was reported. If so, that was the FO signalling future roster decisions.
One of Roseman’s strengths was wheeling and dealing (draft day, player trades, etc). Does this negate that?
Not necessarily. If chip says get me this guy Howie will work the phones.
GermanEagle:
I’m wondering about this topic myself.
If Roseman is the guy “on the phone,” is Roseman also the guy putting a “draft-pick valuation” on the targeted player?
Wouldn’t letting Roseman into the trade mix give him a back-door into personnel decisions?
Now, Lurie’s announcement said Roseman will continue handling “NFL strategic NFL matters.” Does that include trades? Seems implausible, considering what’s gone down.
________________
QUESTION:
If Roseman’s still handling contract negotiations, what kind of leverage does he have with an agent for a player about whom Kelly’s already said “I want him?”
I suppose it won’t be any different from when we had Reid/Heckert/Banner here, from what I understand the roles we will see going forward will be very similar.
It’s hard to say if we ever lost out on or vastly overpaid anyone because of that structure, but it seemed like if the team really wanted someone they found a way to get it done, and the cap was always in great shape.
NNN:
I agree with you that what you’ve described is — I think — the structure Kelly wants.
Regarding Banner, one of the local writers (Frank?) mentioned he had some sort of murky role in personnel. On the Org Chart before 2012, Banner was above Reid, I think.
Not a perfect analogy. But I agree with you about the future.
Now that you mention it, Banner probably had more power than Roseman will have. I believe Banner was able to more or less block a move if the numbers didn’t fit.
Will be interesting to see how such matters will be handled going forward. Will Chip and/or his right hand man agree with player/agent on overall numbers with Roseman just ironing out the details, or will Howie handle all the numbers talk?
Regarding your question: if Kelly is as smart as we think he is (and want him to be) he simply cannot say “I want him” anymore. You can bet Belichick has a different way of speaking to his players than, let’s say, McCarthy has. McCarthy can indeed play the card: hey son, listen, we both know it’s a business, but I want you here. I hope Thompson and your agent find a way.
Kelly can’t play this way anymore.
D:
Yes, well framed.
Another question . . . What impact therefore, given your framing, does this have on salary re-negotiations and extensions? Does it even matter?
Especially when Chips whole deal is culture. How’s that gonna go over if he decides to cut Demeco Ryans?
I tend to agree with you. But: what other teams have a very strong culture? Patriots and Seahawks. How are those teams run? Carroll and Belichick have final say on anything football related. So it’s possible. Kelly has to seperate business and coaching. It’s tough, but obviously possible.
Given the abruptness of the Eagles FO shake up, I am inclined to put weight on the reporting of the deteriorated relationship between Kelly and Roseman. And through that lens I don’t see Roseman will be involved in any player acquisition FA or draft. I think the NFL strategic matters that’s in Roseman’s new portfolio will be the matters discussed at league meetings, expanded playoffs, longer season, labor deals.
Would love to answer this great question in more detail but I’m at ikea right now.
Man… bet you wish your weren’t dry this month.
I was and really amazed how I made it through sober.
I would’ve been forced to smack myself in the head with the leg of a Poäng chair.
You’re killin’ me.
So did Ikea.
But what authority will Howie have to trade players/picks on the fly? Will he have to say — “hold on, let me check with Chip?”
This is one of my top concerns with the FO shakeup. Although I was not a fan of Roseman, I believed that the Eagles under him (and before he was GM) were good at making “lemonade” with lemons in the draft through their trades. However, I think Kelly is knowledgable enough to understand that such negotiating skills would be an important aspect of the job requirements of the personnel position he’s to fill and would look for a candidate that had that experience.
I think a big part of the art of draft deals, are the interpersonal relations between the parties. If Kelly is able to bring in someone who is respected in league circles that person should be able to get on the phone and make things happen. If not, there’s always the obligatory trade deal availabe to be made with Patriots, even though Big Red is no longer here Kelly and Bellichik are tight.
In either case, we’ll know who to blame or who to credit over the next year.
As someone said over on 24-7, this is all that really matters.
Whoever the quarterback is.
They both have small track records but with the information we have so far..no one really has the edge. Howie was here for the 2012 draft (maybe he’s as traumatized as we are with bad drafts). Chip has had 2 drafts that’s basically yin and yang right now. Being biased aside, Chip is in his last year of the “coach pardon”. We’ll see what happens in 2016.
I have mixed emotions about this. Theres a part of me that liked what Roseman did. He mad some great trades. And theres another part of me that covets Kelly more than Roseman. It’s harder to find a great coach than a GM. If giving Kelly full power will keep him here, then we have to do it.
What keeps bothering me is the last draft. I remember a story Kelly was telling how he wanted to take Hart in the 3rd round, but Roseman kept telling him he would be available in the 5th. Is that the kind of draft we can expect with Kelly calling the shots? Overrated Duck players taken high in the draft?
This is Kelly’s quote about Hart:
“So when we could get our hands on him, we had him rated a lot higher. I know I say that a lot, but that’s true for us. We would have taken him in the third. We’re fortunate. I think Howie did a great job of how we ordered it today. The other guy would be gone first, so let’s take him. He guaranteed me Hart would be there in the fifth and he was right.”
He also praised Roseman about the draft, which is different from the stories we are now reading about his relationship with him and how he thinks he’s just a cap guy.
Are Kelly’s public comments even reliable? About anything?
Not saying he’s a bad guy. Just he doesn’t want anyone outside the team to know what he really thinks.
Not very different from Belichick.
Actually – on this front – I do wonder if Chip will have the time and/or acumen to billow up some Rosemanesque smoke. Under Howie, the Eagles did a pretty good job occluding their draft desires (and keeping tabs on what other teams’ motives: their in-town visits, interviews, etc.). My vain hope is that – despite the current portrayal of animosity – Kelly will tab Roseman with some of those draft-related tasks.
AC, I don’t think you can put much into Chip’s public comments. He’s a private guy, very much like Belichick.
in general, I don’t think there is much he can say publicly. I think we tend to forget the context of a press conference and the necessary framework that coaches are working within. Publicly criticizing an underling will create distrust of everyone else and instill animosity/fear of failure. Very counterproductive. Praise has to be dished out in measured terms, too much praise can lead to complacency, not enough – resentment and a feeling of being under appreciated. Also, look at what Kelly chooses to praise: he never praises results, always the process that leads to the results putting emphasis on teamwork, training and study habits. It is really an interesting psychological study now that I think about it.
What really bugs me about Kelly having all the power now is: Kelly at least seems like a short-term guy. We can debate about that as a HC, but you can at least make the argument that it’s no problem, just a coaching philosophy.
With Kelly, I get the impression that he COULD (let’s hope he’s different in his new role) mean “win the day” literally even as a GM – and that’s catastrophic.
If Coach Kelly lets the veterans play in a meaningless game – well, some of us are frustrated, but it’s not the end of the world and there’s some logic to it. But if GM Kelly wants to keep ALL the veterans because they are such great guys, we’ll have a roster full of 30 year olds in no time. If you’re lucky, you have a shot at the SB in that time, but only if you’re lucky and after that, you’ll be in Raiders/Jags mode for a while. And that would kill me as a fan.
A GM has to look at the now, but also at what will happen next year and the year after that. I think Kelly is one heck of a coach and a very, very bright football mind, but I don’t know if he can look at the roster long term. Coming from College, that was never required, you changed approx. 1/4 of your team every year, you had to change it, everyone had to change it. Thinking short-term doesn’t hurt you in College, but it hurts GMs in the NFL.
In that regard, he seems to me like almost the anti-Belichick, despite their friendship. Belichick is famous for letting veterans go right after their prime (or at least at the end of their prime). Sometimes he may went too far, but that’s the kind of philosophy that kept the Patriots in the playoffs since eternities. Let’s hope Chip has a long talk with Belichick about the philosophy of being a GM/HC. Belichick is a great coach, not nearly as good as GM (drafting…), but he knows that there is a time and a place to get rid of some veterans (not all of them, but some) to bring in new blood.
Great point, I guess he could talk with Reid as well, at least in regards to letting veterans go, for the most part he did a good job with that while here.
With Chips limited experience handling a pro team where, as you say, long-term thinking is important, you would hope Lurie’s philosophy of not wanting “Yes Men” has rubbed off on Chip.
Here’s the scenario I fear, what might have happened last year too: Roseman and his team of scouts spend a year putting together a comprehensive draft board, very organized and deliberate, everyone carefully considered and discussed, reviewed by multiple scouts and senior personnel guys, all ready to go. And then with a few weeks before the draft, the coach and a few of his guys tear the whole thing up and start changing everything.
Les Bowen’s piece this morning said that exactly what happened last year
Indeed:
“…sources with knowledge of the situation have said that last May, Roseman’s scouting staff was really ticked when the coaches were allowed to change a draft board that the scouts had set – part of the ongoing conflict that led to yesterday’s restructuring.”
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/20150104_Kelly_gets_full_football_control_in_Eagles_shake-up.html#272sx6yAFlOKyo5M.99
I would be furious if I were Howie. While this isn’t confirmed information, Chip is looking more like an egomaniac by the day but we knew this. He wanted power here and we’re giving it to him.
I would be furious if I was one of the scouts who spent months assessing information and debating the merits of this player over that one, all to fit the coach’s wishes, only to have the coach swoop in at the last minute and rearrange things. At least in Dallas those scouts know their doing busy-work.
Tommy always does a “top 100” and an “Eagles board” before each draft, and anybody who has ever assembled or attempted to put together their own “big board” knows what goes into it.
My hope is that Roseman articulated this to Lurie AND Kelly, and that while the others understood, Kelly (being an efficiency nut) suggested he just take over the process rather than waste people’s time.
Not only is it a waste of time but it indicates the scouts aren’t seeing talent in the same light as the coaches/have the same value system. That is an issue in the sense that they may reject players the coaches like or present the coaches with players that they don’t like from a scheme perspective. From an engineering perspective you need everyone using the same units of measure and prioritizing the trades in the same way.
Note: trades as in attribute trades not player trades
True, though I think there will always be a fundamental discord between coaching and evaluation when it comes to talent. I’m sure D3FB can weigh in, here.
One thing we can cling to is the very fickle nature of talent acquisition – you can sink millions into scouting but at the end of the day, it’s largely a crapshoot. Everyone points to Seattle’s one good draft or even the allegedly pure Howie draft of 2012, but those are just that – one draft. It’s always going to be hit-or-miss. Let’s all pray for hits.
B:
Remember the whole “Coaches saw them at the Senior Bowl” thing in the latter part of the Reid era.
Senior Bowl. Senior Bowl. Everything about the Eagles draft was the Senior Bowl.
Where the assistant coaches saw these guys up close.
_____________
Even in 2012, Fletcher Cox talked big time about how he and Washburn hit it off. And it was love at first sight for both — not at SR Bowl; just they connected. (Or something like that.)
And after the 2012 draft, Washburn was touting Cox as the best D-lineman in the draft.
Reuben Frank continues to maintain that 2012 — like very prior draft since 2002 — was an Andy Reid draft.
He’s never bought the Lurie koolaid about Roseman.
Seems Kelly never did either.
I do remember our infatuation with the Senior Bowl quite fondly. Somewhere – in Andy Reid’s dreams – Tony Hunt is hoisting yet another NFL’s Leading Rusher trophy.
I think it really comes down to time. Scouts have literally all year to watch practices and tape. Coaches squeeze it in in a couple months… maybe. There’s also recency bias with Senior Bowl stuff: “I just saw this guy stonewall everyone who came at him!” “Yes, but two years ago he was studying fire-fighting at a junior college…”
That said, I also think it’s too simple to dismiss the wisdom behind coaches evaluating talent. They are – after all – going to be the ones working with them day in and day out and theoretically should know EXACTLY what they’re looking for at each position, etc. I think we might be making a mistake by prejudging Kelly based upon Reid simply because of their job responsibilities. Reid was in a very different position towards the end and Bryan Smith picks aside, at least got who he wanted. Did we want them? Not necessarily, but last check, there are no Lombardi trophies in the case, so what’s the harm in seeing what Chip can do?
I just picture Howie at his house throwing darts at a picture of Chip with empty bottles of Jack on the floor mumbling to himself “why the fuck didn’t i just hire Gus Bradley”
Sizing up Howie, I would change the empty bottles of Jack to empty bottles of Mike’s Hard Lemonade.
Zima is what I pictured…lol
Ha! I almost went with Zima or Bartles and Jaymes but elected to go with a more topical reference.
Oh definitely bro. I’m envisioning out COLD face down next to 3 empty bottles of Zima. :))
HP:
That’s just a great image — and right out of a ’40s movie.
Yep, no question he is a crazy man. He’s crazy about winning and will do what he thinks is necessary to win. We will see if his mindset fits in an NFL organization or not.
Seems to me that “sources with knowledge” is a term “reporters” use when they try to fabricate a scenario. This is pretty much what most of the Philly media did from the get go. But if they were being totally honest a more appropriate term would be “sources without knowledge”.
DW:
Nothing’s fabricated.
“Sources with knowledge” is a term chosen, usually, by the source so as not to reveal or suggest who they might be.
Then the reporters and editors (such as they are) have to decide if the sources are RELIABLE.
Now, if you want to question the reliability of the sources, that’s different.
But reports with a regular beat don’t invent stories.
They’d NEVER get anyone to speak with them off the record again, on background, without attribution, or with attribution. Ever.
______________
As for the past week, every reporter relied on sourced information. Inferences were drawn. (Or as Xeynon rightly noted to me, “informed speculation.”)
But they went with what was based on something.
I’m not of the view that anyone invented anything . . .
Except Mike Florio!
Quite the opposite. When an actual reporter (Les Bowen) says “source” he means trusted source. Compare to Tweets that read: “I hear” or “Word from inside the Eagles” or “Rumor is” THOSE are usually fabricating a scenario or – more likely – trying to throw anything against the wall in the hopes of it sticking. The trouble (recently… both with this story and with the DeSean story) is that reporters are starting to use those un-sourced rumors to further an angle. That’s my issue with the “Kelly was furious after Roseman fired his right-hand-man” storyline because I can’t link that back to a real source.
Thanks, I hadn’t seen that, but it confirms my apprehension.
For those using media forensics to track the emotional storyline of this shake-up, I challenge the notion that firing Gamble was the opening salvo in a bare-knuckle power struggle between cap boys and football men.
1) “Tom Gamble was Chip Kelly’s right hand man.”
This assertion, and the rumor that Kelly was therefore “furious” when Gamble was fired only surfaced as speculation in the wake of that action. “Facts” such as “Kelly didn’t comment on the press release” and that he had just praised him in a press conference two days earlier were twisted into this narrative. As EagleNebula astutely noted yesterday, Kelly also had glowing things to say about DeSean right before giving him the boot.
2) “Chip Kelly demanded the Eagles hire Tom Gamble (as a ‘football guy’) before agreeing to be the coach.”
When the Eagles hired Gamble on February 15, 2013 – over a month after hiring Kelly – Roseman revealed that, in fact, he had been attempting to hire Gamble away from the 49ers ever since Ryan Grigson left in January of 2012. That would be a full year before Chip Kelly was even a thought: “Gamble said he spoke with Eagles general manager Howie Roseman last year after the draft, but decided to stay in San Francisco for various reasons.” AND: “He just wanted to make sure timing was right,” Roseman said, after making an allusion to talking to Gamble last year “when coach [Andy] Reid was here.”
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/inq-eagles/Tom-Gamble-explains-why-he-left-the-49ers-for-the-Eagles.html
http://articles.philly.com/2013-02-15/sports/37102189_1_tom-gamble-personnel-director-harry-gamble
3) Lastly, some sourced information from Les Bowen:
“…an Eagles source indicated last night that Gamble’s departure did not spur the restructuring, meaning the Gamble firing alone was not a big issue for Kelly.”
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles/20150104_Kelly_gets_full_football_control_in_Eagles_shake-up.html
I absolutely agree. To me the timeline indicates that they had end of season discussions on Monday/Tuesday and those discussions led to the restructuring and letting Gamble go was part of that agreement. If the timeline was Howie fires Gamble, Chip is pissed, and then all the sides meet on Friday to decide how to keep Chip then where in there time for the Eagles to reach a new contract with Howie? Howie can’t draw up his own contract. There has to be time for some negotiations, the Eagles’ lawyers outside of Howie to review the contract, Howie’s agent Bob Lamonte to review the contract. That isn’t done on a Friday afternoon. I know we’ve seen players sign 2 hours after free agency begins in the past, but that’s because teams were already negotiating before the official start of free agency. I’d guess that whole contract process takes 36-48 hours.
Thanks for addressing the timeline. I was going to but the post was getting predictably long. I actually thought Sheil presented an uncharacteristically obtuse view on the timeline. I think maybe he’s unwittingly confusing facts and speculation to help feed into the Kelly-Roseman “feud” and doesn’t allow for the possibility (as you suggest) that Lurie, Kelly and Roseman were all talking to each other starting Monday.
“Just think about the timeline. On Sunday,
Lurie scoffed at the idea that Roseman might not return as the GM. On Monday, Kelly pointed out that Roseman’s strength was in cap/contracts. On Wednesday, Tom Gamble was fired. And on Friday, Lurie called an audible and handed full personnel control over to Kelly.”
http://www.phillymag.com/birds247/2015/01/03/aftermath-five-thoughts-eagles/#xFosBCeCiF7yWL4x.99
You make good points, but I think the truth is somewhere closer to “palace intrigue” angle because of the execution of events. To take a somewhat contrarian view to yours my perspective (background I’m a DC lawyer that spent a very short time in the WH years ago) the Eagles have degree of control over how a/this story is framed by the flow info. If you want to frame an event as being a part of a thought out plan you want the execution of the event to fit that frame – do everything at the same time is indicative of a plan. Therefore, you announce Gamlbe’s departure (as opposed to McManus reporting that he was escorted out of the facilities), Roseman’s “elevation” and Chip’s new responsibilities all at once. The framing of the event becomes that it was part of thought out plan and fits Luries 2nd more detailed press release about better integration of the personnel decisions.
I agree with this – it’s all a little too wonky to have been a neatly executed plan. That said, I also think the stories of people being “furious” and spitefully firing execs, etc., seems a little too wild to me… THAT’S the narrative that I feel is being wantonly pushed and – for the most part – swallowed by the public. I suspect – given your time in the WH – that you believe, like me, that the truth exists somewhere in the murky middle: Kelly and Roseman did not get along, and one or both of them made that clear to Lurie. That’s a difficult-to-package PR job.
The Gamble issue is the one that I think can be explained in a different way (as I posited yesterday). It’s possible Gamble himself wanted out (personal reasons, more opportunity elsewhere, friction with others, etc.) and the issue of replacing him invoked the entire restructuring. OR (more likely), one or a combination of Kelly, Roseman and Lurie wanted him gone. That could be for any number of reasons other than spite: performance, attitude, indiscretions, hygiene, etc. It could also have been out of an awareness of the upcoming restructure in which case the basis for “parting ways” with Gamble BEFORE announcing the re-structure would be to give him a chance to interview elsewhere. If, for example, they weren’t sure how long hammering out the re-structure would actually take but knew Gamble wouldn’t be part of the plan, the “correct” thing to do is to make him aware of that. Maybe he then went wild and overturned his desk, “I moved my family across the country for you!!”, etc., who knows? Again, it’s not clean and perfect, but I doubt trying to figure out the restructuring with three massive egos was either.
B:
But to 47_Ronin’s point . . .
Why, if Gamble’s departure’s a sideshow and not especially problematic for Kelly, doesn’t the organization wait to announce everything at once?
Two possible thoughts:
1) Gamble did not go quietly into the night.
2) They realized they couldn’t keep firing Gamble a secret long enough (if he was flying around looking at other jobs).
I think that makes sense on the premise that Roseman pulled the trigger on the firing — I suspect strongly with Lurie’s blessing, but not Kelly’s.
If Kelly’d been on board or not opposed to the firing, and at the same time prepared to tell Lurie about his unified management structure that didn’t include Roseman, then I think the scenario 47_Ronin described would’ve been possible if not likely.
I actually think it works both ways. Even if Kelly was on board with firing Gamble (and we know from Les Bowen that it wasn’t the precursor to the restructuring idea) I could see a scenario where they realize they need to announce it ASAP. It makes sense to release Gamble for his own benefit (so he can openly pursue other jobs) and I actually think Chip would want it done for that purpose.
I could also see Gamble not going quietly into the night even if Chip was the one who fired him or supportive of the move. The Eagles wooed Gamble for two years to come “home”, he finally leaves S.F. (where he might have been first-in-line to step in now as GM), moves his family across the country, and aligns his personnel department to fit the wishes of Chip Kelly, and then is suddenly shown the door. I don’t think I’d be happy with anyone in that instance.
I’m just trying to interject a little reasonable doubt into the picture, here. I really have a hard time believing that “palace intrigue” escalated to the levels of Roseman defiantly firing an employee in some near-sighted power-struggle maneuver. To me, the most likely scenario is that Kelly blindsided Roseman and Lurie with his desire to “streamline” the personnel process and that Gamble was collateral damage to accommodate that vision. The Eagles simply and characteristically fumbled the PR. Why? Because “restructuring” at the highest levels can’t be done cleanly AND quickly.
You lawyered me . . . .
Mrs. Baloophi has schooled you well.
I get your point. Makes good sense.
Your points on Gamble are possible, but if you know the press they will do what they do, and that is to find an “angle” on an event to create a narrative, sometimes the more “salacious” the better because readers eat those like candy. I have to place blame on the wild stories at the feet of Lurie and Roseman (perhaps some Kelly but don’t really know but The buck stops with Lurie in this instance) they are aware how the press will react to a “sudden” exit of a top Eagle exec, if you don’t want the press to get into frenzied mode you can’t throw them a bone. Should’ve at least delayed Gamble’s removal until they had most of the ducks in order (pun intended). I don’t think there’s any difference in canning Gamble on Tuesday or announcing it on Friday.
True… which makes me wonder if an event forced their hand. For example, Gamble gets wind of this restructuring talk and demands answers – they’re forced to “do the deed” on Tuesday. Or they believe they’re costing Gamble an interview by waiting three days, but don’t have their own restructure figured out and/or ready for the press yet. I agree 100% that this can’t be the way the Eagles wanted information to be delivered (the second Lurie press release is really odd), but I’m also not sure the chaos reached Roseman and Kelly yelling at each other in Lurie’s office levels with Kelly threatening to walk… which I think the media wants us to believe.
worst-case: Kelly’s achilles heel becomes personnel acquisition, and he bows out in Philly. With the current setup alleviating one of the biggest grievances of many fans (opaque front office accountability), this can’t last forever.
I say he’d flame out in another 2 years, plus 2/3 more to get another system in. Barring a franchise QB draft pick, we aim for relevancy around 2020.
best-case: we’ve just handed greater responsibility to an incredible leader, organizer, manager and coach. He takes the franchise to dynastic levels, (continuing to) break franchise/NFL records and possibly bringing this city its first Super Bowl title.
the worst-case is about par for the course in the NFL. Best-case is something we’ve never really seen (made it 95% with Reid), in a current time where there’s not exactly some other possibly-legendary option ready in the wings anyway.
why not roll the dice? if you aren’t a total Kelly hater, that is
Good post. If Kelly’s heel includes crappy player acquisition, we’re in an even-worst-worst-case. If he surrounds himself with strong assistant coaches, we in an even-better-best-case. This trip can go in a bunch of different directions.
Brandon Lee Gowton, in a response on twitter, said he heard that Terry Bradway and Todd Brunner were possible options for Kelly. Brunner is SEA’s Northeast Area Scout. Elliott Shorr Parks was the first guy to float his name. Bradway is the Jets’ senior director of college scouting. Bradway was with the Jets when Howie was an intern there in the late 90s. At that time, Mike Tannenbaum was the Jets’ cap guy. Tannenbaum is one of Howie’s best friends in the NFL. In 2006, Bradway was replaced as GM by Tannenbaum. However, he still stayed with the team as senior personnel executive before later being given his current title. He remained with the Jets after Tannenbaum was replaced by John Idzik. Most Jets’ fans don’t think highly of him although his record is more mixed if you look at it closely. I don’t know if Bradway has any type of relationship with Kelly or a good one with Roseman, but it’s worth noting that Bradway’s son Michael is the Eagles’ assistant director of college scouting. Bradway joined the Eagles in 2008 which is about when Howie gained more juice in the personnel operation. So, he’d be a strange choice by Chip in a lot of respects.
Seeing the mess that the Jets have been for the last…uh, forever…I’d be really worried about bringing in any of their personnel/scouting people!
I believe Brunner is in the mix for some GM jobs. I’d wonder if coming here would offer him enough decision making power to lure him out of Sea? I’d love to have someone in our war room that has insight on how the LOB was assembled.
Another of their guys, Trent Kirchner(Director of Pro Personnel), has been requested by at least one other team from my memory to interview for a GM job. Brunner is SEA’s NE Area Scout. I wouldn’t discount Chip being interested in him for the GM Lite position he’s filling but in most cases a guy goes from area scout to a director of college scouting before he gets a title of director of player personnell or higher.
Ahh yes, I remember Kirchner’s name being floated last week for GM interviews. Since we are looking for a JV GM guys like Brunner and Marynowitz are probably realistic targets.
PFT is reporting Marynowitz is getting first interview for GM. Very young and relatively inexperienced. Perhaps that is what Kelly is looking for.
That’s not a bad resume. Not hugely experienced in the NFL? Fewer bad habits to break.
Mark Helfrich found Mariota. Chip was not so sure about this pick but knew Helfrich and trusted his insight. He also knew Helfrich had done his homework on Mariota. He needs someone with insight into talent, character, and overall fit.
I have great confidence that Chip will find the guy that will help this team reach a SB. No doubt in my mind whatsoever.
Helfrich for GM?
I kid! I kid!
No way. But I felt it necessary to highlight Chip’s level of trust with the right decision maker. Chip knows that he can’t know everything, and surrounds himself with specialists who really know their s..t.
s..t?
special teams?
not following.
He means “poop” but is too much of a gentleman to type it out.
NOT but I’ll change to poop.
Sigh… I used to think you were classier than that.
s..t = poop.
OD:
I confess (against my usual advice) I was needling.
After the past few days, just needed to kid a bit.
I thought so but was not real sure. The last few days of been hell without Eagles football. But the Ducks crushing Florida was a great consolation prize. Chip’s legacy lives on…..
If Shurmur took the Oakland job, would he or Scott Frost be in contention for OF now Chip has NFL experience?
Maybe, but Chip needs to know how to combat innovative NFL Defense solutions to his offense. The split zone coverage response was tough for him this year. Personally, I’d feel better with an NFL guy.
I also think from Helfrich’s perspective, he’s in a good spot right now…
Re: Kelly’s Public-speak on Marioto
A couple weeks ago, Kelly gushed about Mariota — saying, “I think Marcus will be successful whether he’s an NFL player, a banker, a teacher, a fireman, a policeman.”
QUESTION:
Is Kelly being coy about Mariota?
Seems whenever Kelly compliments someone, it’s code for “This person will NOT be with the Philadelphia Eagle for much longer.”
______________
So, obviously can’t know for sure, but what do you think are Kelly’s views on Marioto?
More specifically, does Kelly see Mariota as possessed of the skills and mental framework to be among the ELITE in the NFL?
NOTE:
I know there’s an argument that Kelly’ll go with Foles / Likes Foles / Doesn’t care about a running QB.
But that’s not the focus of my question.
I think Chip realizes that Mariota might not be elite in other systems. Mariota is not required to make the reads required in a Pro style offense, the Blur reads are much easier.
OD:
I read this response to mean:
“Rest Easy, Eagles Fans, Kelly will not make a trade for a high-enough 1st Rd pick to select Mariota.”
Yes?
Well, he fits the Eagles better than other offenses because there is less complexity. Jameis Winston is a better fit, in my opinion, for the Bucs and others.
So if Mariota slips because of this observation by NFL scouts then the Eagles have a chance. However, Chip will not ransom the future for any player.
The last statement is what Chip stated in his PC. @14:40 ish he says he will not overpay one person because it hurts the rest of the team. It will take a team to win not one superstar.
P:
While Kelly’s no liar . . . I take nothing he says publicly very seriously at this point.
OD:
What’s your thinking on why Kelly wouldn’t spend big to get a QB if he thought that — within a couple years — he’d have a 10-12 year super star in his system?
In the mid-2000s — when Brady had 4 years’ starting experience — New England was essentially carried by:
1 coach and 6 players.
– Coach Bill Belichick, plus
– QB Tom Brady,
– OT Matt Light
– DE/DT/NT Richard Seymour,
– NT Vince Wolfork,
– ILB Teddy Bruschi,
– S Rodney Harrison.
Belichick did patchwork on the rest of the team and still competed for the SB nearly every year.
Those were the stars.
Right now, the Eagles have:
– OT Lane Johnson
– DE/DT/NT Fletcher Cox
– NT Benjamin Logan
– ILB Myckal Kendricks
– WR Jordan Matthews
– TE Zach Ertz
– S Malcolm Jenkins
Pretty solid core. Like the Pats.
Maybe not quite as good. But damned solid.
____________
NOTE:
At some future point, I’m going to post some data on the results of “blockbuster” draft-day trades.
Data seem to show that the team making the huge move up usually wins — or at least doesn’t lose very much because of the coin-flip nature of 1st-Rd picks.
And the closer to No. 1 you draft, the better your odds of hitting on a star.
Chip listens to Belichick. Don’t be surprised if he makes such BOLD moves in the future. We can argue about whether “he sold the damn farm” but Chip is no wallflower. This next draft is going to be real controversial. Get your popcorn.
After the draft, I think we might argue he soldout the future; and I’ll probably make that statement. He’s going to put a lot trust in the advice he gets from “his people”.
OD:
You just beat me to the punch.
I think Kelly’s franchise modus operandi is how he sees New England.
Which suggests Kelly needs to identify a QB he believes to be ultra-special. Maybe it’s Nick Foles. Maybe someone else.
(I wrote, “suggests”; I’m have no idea what Kelly actually thinks.)
But one thing Belichick is not afraid to do is make bold moves.
______________
That said, Belichick’s never been one to make a blockbuster trade to move up.
Of course, when you have a QB who thrives in your system, you have HUGE flexibility.
Good point on that final note, the coin-flip nature of 1st round picks. With the exception of Fletcher Cox and Lane Johnson, the Eagles have wiffed on 1st round draft picks the last few years.
You have to wonder exactly how much Eagles would lose by trading a few 1st rounders, considering the recent history of picks in that round, not as much…
H125:
You cannot believe how much the data supports what you’re saying.
And the likelihood of hitting on 2nd and 3rd Rd picks begins going down very quickly.
____________
QUESTION:
Despite what Kelly’s said publicly about “The Future Is Now” (since most of his public remarks are pablum) . . . does he strike you as someone willing to take a step back for a couple years to win for 10-12. On the assumption he sees the player he’s drafting as rock-star quality?
Kelly’s inherited a nearly intact offense. Age is an issue only on the O-line. If there’s any position where sub-1st Rd picks can produce, it’s the O-line.
________________
By the way . . . I think Lurie’s statement about how Kelly envisions building this team is only the most superficial description. As it should be.
Kelly has a vision. And you’d think that vision, for a guy like him, includes specific players who’d maximize the productivity of his scheme.
Not to say he’ll be able to get them.
But he may conclude that a roll of the dice is worth it at QB.
(Repeating again: I’m expressing no position on Foles)
“Kelly’s inherited a nearly intact offense”
100% correct, and he’s done with players that he himself has not inherited, imagine with plays that he does bring in.
The Eagles got a lot out of the young offensive lineman this season, and in reference to your point in finding Oline in the mid rounds, Lane Johnson is the only first round pick. We have solid depth on the oline, finding replacement talent there will be an easy task for Kelly.
To answer your question, yes. Kelly does strike me as someone who would be willing to take a step back. Perfect example is how he handled this past years draft class. He let them all develop, did not play them and chose to go with the experienced and less talented depth guys. This approach will hopefully benefit in a huge way a couple years from now. Smart man. Him wanting to move up for a QB that would flourish in his system for the next decade is the right assumption. I fully expect that from him, in a gut feeling way of course.
What are your thoughts on that possibilty?
Great point. Not only do you have to wonder exactly how much the Eagles would lose by trading a few 1st rounders, but we would be LEFT to wonder since there’d be no way to know exactly what we gave up. (SEE revisionist draft graders here and on other sites).
If anything, I look more at the pure number of selections (versus position) that we’d give up… if it’s somewhat of a lottery (obviously you have better chances at better players the higher you pick) then simply giving away a few darts could be costly because we may accidentally screw up and draft a good player.
Right. Another thing to consider is Kelly and how he develops his players. It’s too early to tell, but these picks in the later rounds can be either really good or really bad. It’s difficult to imagine a player not succeeded when he has been given time to develop and not forced into games as a rookie, I.e, marcus smith, Ed Reynolds, Taylor hart.
That said, these late round picks are good hands with Kelly. Would you trust Kelly developing mid-late round players for a couple of years while he sacrifices a few 1st rounders? I vote yes.
I know you asked OD, but gonna jump in and say that Kelly isn’t wired to think in terms of getting a “10-12 year superstar”, especially if he would need to mortgage the program to get him. He’s not even going to entertain that hypothetical. If he has a chance to get Mariota through the course of normal draft happenstance (he falls to them or falls low enough that they needs to move up 2-4 spots rather than 19) he’ll take him based on what he knows of him, but he’s not going to bet the next 3-4 (or 10-12 or 999) years on a single player who could get hurt/crippled/arrested/suspended/killed/ or just plain fail to graduate to the NFL level.
Don’t disagree in principle.
I noted elsewhere that as far as we can tell, for Kelly “The Future Is Now.”
But you just never know.
i think he like everyone sees last year as a wasted year bc we didn’t get the right talent. think we could fall way behind if we don’t get better people.
I think to your point, it’s actually more than just never really knowing. Oftentimes pressure pushes people out of their comfort zone and changes how they think and act. It’s possible that Kelly figures he needs a QB like Mariota and this, barring an obscenely unlikely trade with Carolina for Newton or funding bionic implants for a discarded RGIII via some sports science reclamation project, might be the only option in the next 3-4 years to do it so a crazy deal for Mariota might be in the cards. But I’d still maintain that such an occurrence would be more in line with Win The Day than mortgaging the future.
The possibility of a trade up is more likely now than it was a week ago. Mariota has franchise QB potential if he’s with Kelly.
H125:
I agree.
And I will be arguing as to why a trade-up may not be a crazy idea once I put all the data together . . .
CONTINGENT on Kelly actually believing Marioto is BIG TIME S-P-E-C-I-A-L.
(That’s not to say a deal could get done.)
Less complicated, but it requires a certain confident disposition to commit to the blur style reads because it happens so fast and requires a lot of faith in each piece of the system. At the same time, you need someone who can relax enough not to be jittery but be amped up enough to make instant decisions based on tiny chunks of information. Human tendency is to overthink things like these simple reads when you’ve got a team of opposition in your face and all of the psychological factors that occur in a high stakes environment going on. In Kelly’s system, this present problems because of the timing involved in each read decision and subsequent read and decision to be made. I think this is a large part of Foles’ problem running the offense this year, too much going on up top in his skull and not enough instant and decisive commitment to his reads.
OD:
QUESTION: Why did Mariotta red-shirt his freshman year in 2011?
– Was it because Oregon was coming off a BCS title game behind QB Darron Thomas, who still had 2 years of eligibility?
– Or another reason?
QUESTION: What was Kelly’s general policy on red-shirting freshman. The answer may shine light on his expectations about Mariota when he first reached Oregon.
I think I read that Mariota really challenged Darron. In the end, the offense ran more effectively with Darron than Mariota. Mariota could make the throws, but missed his reads and tried to force tight windows. But I think it was close.
Great stuff . . . as ALWAYS.
Thx
And this kind of intel, I think , illuminates things here.
Great having you here Ducker. Always enjoy the extra insight you bring.
Yep. Mariota, like most Oregon quarterbacks under Kelly’s offense, needed time to adjust to all of the thinking and reading going on (it was never a question of tools or talent). It’s hard to project that from high school ball because it’s just not done. Kelly can win games with any type of QB (runner, pocket, 2-way), as long as that QB can process the mental side of it. A dual threat is obviously preferred, but in that sense it needs to be a Steve Young, John Elway, Andrew Luck or even Cam Newton dual threat leaning towards passing skills and reading defenses rather than a Vick or RGIII. That’s what makes Mariota special, he’s as close to a 5050 QB as I think we’ve seen in a long, long time.
” he’s as close to a 5050 QB as I think we’ve seen in a long, long time.” Agreed. But such a trade will be very painful for us here. I hope it happens.
Yeah, I don’t see it happening. Crazier things have happened, but I just don’t see it.
Regarding question #2 – I think Chip generally likes to red-shirt freshmen because of maturity and learning-curve. The offense is really different than high school ball.
Re: 60 Hours of Uncertainty
– 5 guys sitting around the dinner table, another standing, all eating Chinese takeout.
– Phone rings.
– One of the guy gets up to field the call in another room.
– He returns and says, “Louie’s Restaurant in the Bronx.”
– Another asks, “Well is it reliable?!?!”
– The guy who answered the phone says, “That’s my man in McCluskey’s precinct. A police captain’s gotta be on call twenty-four hours a day. He signed out at that number between eight and ten. Anybody know this joint?
_______________
There’s nothing in life “The Godfather” can’t explain.
Phone rings
“Hey Chip, they’ll give us Marcus for “X”.”
Chip – “Give ’em “Y” and tell ’em they’ll take it or else.”
Excellent!
Stretching a little further…
“Hey, Tom? Howie wants to take you out fishing on the lake.”
Ah . . . and the man delivers
B:
Very glad to see you weighing in on the past few days.
Tom: “Where are the poles, Howie???”
Stop up here.
I need to take a leak.
leave the gun, take the cannoli
“I know it was you, Howie. You broke my heart.”
Oh, Gamble… won’t see him no more
Gamble knew the gig was up when Roseman told him he wanted to go on a hiking excursion to the Jersey Pine Barrens . . .
RE: Ed Marynowitz – first name to surface as Kelly’s Personnel Guy
A 2012 hire in Reid’s final season in the scouting department.
Held the title “Assistant Director of Player Personnel” in 2014.
The late-of-the-Eagles Tom Gamble held the position of “Director of Player Personnel” in 2013 (before a title change in 2014, with no apparent change in responsibilities [T-Law?]).
Marynowitz was briefly with the 49ers in 2012 before joining the Eagles.
Gamble was VP of player personnel when he was hired in 2013. Marynowitz had the title of Asst DIr of College Scouting in 2012 and then was moved to Assistant Director of Player Personnel in 2013.
GR:
Your correction’s duly noted. THX.
The 2013 article I drew from — which quoted Gamble talking up Marynowitz big time — mis-ID’d Gamble’s title.
Man since when are the Eagles jerseys red spotting a gay bird?!
link? picture?
They are on Espn at the moment.
I get it.
Wow. Looooooong hangover.
haha yours or mine?
those issues start at home.
mine for sure.
I should have taken you to Ikea!
This is a really thoughtful piece on the whole thing:
http://www.igglesblog.com/iggles_blog/2015/01/one-sided.html
“Let’s pick a less emotionally-fraught example and assume for a moment that Chip Kelly was responsible for drafting Taylor Hart in the fifth round (and only after Howie talked him out of taking him in the third).
After a year in which Hart couldn’t get on the field over a 29-year-old used car salesman who got shoved around every time he was out there, this does not look like the wisest draft pick ever.
So blame Chip. Blame him for taking a try-hard Oregon guy and #culturefit over a badly needed outside linebacker who put up six sacks playing about the same number of snaps as Brandon Graham.
Except, what if the reason Chip went off the board for a guy like Hart is because the board wasn’t giving him the kinds of guys he really wanted? What if he was simply aping — in reverse — the old Cincinnati draft strategy, in which an organization that refused to invest enough money in scouts took character risk after character risk because at least those guys could play?
Culture trumps 40 time, right?
A team’s draft board isn’t just a list of players, it’s a collection of settled arguments. If the GM and the head coach are fighting on draft day over whether or not they should take an — at best! — fifth round talent two rounds earlier, then those arguments are happening way too late.
….Blame the coach for pulling the trigger on the wrong guy. But maybe blame the GM for not having the right guys there instead.”
Newsome can sure play, though.
In a perfect world you are right, but people aren’t perfect. Yes the draft board is drawn up over a period of months/years, however there is always the fact that another team will probably draft some of your favorites ahead of you. I think that’s where some disagreement comes in. Who should be next man up? Also, back a few years ago Chuck Noll and the Steelers GM argued about whether to draft Swann or Stallworth first. The GM won the argument and he was right.
In support of the culture/talent comment, I give you this article http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2015/01/03/ohio-state-oregon-offenses-urban-meyer-mark-helfrich-chip-kelly/21207573/
Note the comments by Meyer on how he wanted to focus on culture after meeting with Chip and seeing the results.
I read the article but remain unsure about the underlying point. The suggestion seems to be Roseman is at fault for not assembling a draft board that accurately reflects Chip’s desires:
“Blame the coach for pulling the trigger on the wrong guy. But maybe blame the GM for not having the right guys there instead.”
The implication is that Chip was forced to scramble on draft day to find his players because of Roseman’s board. Yet to believe that, we also have to believe that Chip didn’t review the board until the day of the draft? That seems crazy, but if true, seems like more of an indictment of Chip, not Roseman. I agree that arguing about what round Taylor Hart should be selected in should happen WELL before the draft, but I don’t see that as necessarily Roseman’s fault.
I actually thought the start of the article had more promise, but then got derailed or sidetracked with the draft example:
“Today’s front office reshuffling was about much more than an organizational power struggle between head coach Chip Kelly and general manager Howie Roseman. That’s how we all framed the situation in our heads, of course, because we are trained to see clashes of ego between NFL head coaches and general managers as natural and practically inevitable.
Coach : Dog :: GM :: Cat
(:: Owner : Meddlesome Interloper)
The Eagles’ personnel acquisition/retention program has been broken for at least 12 months. They let DeSean walk for nothing, then botched the draft, then failed to build sufficient depth to sustain an NFL roster at positions like inside linebacker.
And don’t get me started on Nate Allen.”
I think the underlying point is that the Eagles draft process is broken, as illustrated by the underwhelming (at this time) 2014 draft.
Whether it is because of coaches meddling and switching up the board at the 11th hour (per Les Bowen’s report), or poor scouting by the personnel side, or some combination of both, along with some other factors, is in some respects irrelevant.
From Lurie’s perspective, the process had to be fixed. Given the options – (1) Give Howie / Scouts more power on draft day or (2) Give Chip more power to build up his own team and install his own process – Lurie chose the only option he could, knowing that option 1 would eventually lead to Chip’s departure.
Lurie is smart. He understands that Chip is Steve Jobs, and its his job to make Steve Jobs happy.
I think the Huff vs Hart debate probably highlights the impact the coaches had on the draft board.
Hart was a player the Eagles rated highly.
Howie & the Scouts recognized that he was valued in the 5th/6th round of the draft – because of how the majority of the league would value him.
The debate was not is he worth a 3rd pick – it was around what do we have to spend to get him.
My concern with Chip getting this power is the lose of insight as to the wider valuation of a player.
Cam Newton is such a stud.
Love him. 😛
The good news about watching Eagles-less playoffs it gives us time to dream.
Mac – Fitz – Matthews
Doesn’t sound bad, does it?!
Fitz is one of my all-time favorite athletes. I believe the Cards have him mostly as a slot receiver and red-zone threat. When he’s an Eagle(!), does Matthews move outside?
no way, double fitz and everyone else is running free.
A:
How much, if any, has Fitz lost since 2008?
I’d say not enough that you have Matthews starting over him on the outside.
Agree with that.
But just wondering the difference between Super-Fitz and today’s Fitz.
I think Fitz would be a great addition to ANY team.
The guy’s all-in all the time in all phases. Seems like a great teammate who demands more from himself than the coaches do
think he’d be more than $10m a year[?] it’d be great if we could be a repository for 28+yo stars on the decline.
No way he’d cost that much
But just wondering the difference between Super-Fitz and today’s Fitz.
In monetary terms: roughly $20m..
You see we need a QB who can do THAT
No we have a QB throwing picks already.
Receiver stopped running for some reason.
Yeah I know. Newton is still not that stud that some might think of him. Not if you’re talking about his passing skills only.
I mean, I’d take him over Nick Foles. He’s missed some throws today, but also had some bad drops from Benjamin along with some bad luck.
Cam in the Eagles offense would be insane.
Me too. But I wouldn’t give up a 1st for him.
RE: Mariota, I too consider it a near impossibility. BUT, it could technically happen…if you involve a third team. Maybe TB trades to STL for #10, STL gets #20, and the Eagles get #1. (Obviously with a ton of 2nd, 3rd, and future picks being thrown around). No one team drops too far. TB and STL end up with a ton of picks.
I consider this also to be highly, highly improbable, probably nearing on impossible. Really tough to organize three-team trades that involve high picks, especially on draft day. But I think dropping from #1 or #2 to #20 is not the only option available.
Eagles would have to give up a ton to do that. I would hope Chip would at least ask Howie for advice about it. He’s been proven to get great value in the draft. But I suppose he’s just a cap guy now. Either way…the offseason is definitely going to be viewed through a much more interesting lens now.
Since the common draft began in 1967 . . .
1. In the first appx 20 years, a trade-up involving a move from 20 or so to No. 1 or No. 2 could be principally done with players and some non-1st Rd picks.
(In fact, in 1985, the Vikings moved from No. 3 to No. 2 and actually ADDED a 3rd Rd pick — craziest deal I can remember. Oilers on the other side.)
2. In the last 25 or so years, a trade-up’s required 1 of 2 things: either (i) a mid-1st Rd pick coupled with a later 1st Rd pick plus non-1st Rd picks, either that year or maybe a future 1st; or (ii) 1st Rd pick, plus current 2nd Rd pick, plus at least one or two players of VERY high quality.
________________
I’ll do a much fuller breakdown as the off-season unfolds if the possibility of a trade up seems even remotely on the radar.
Great stuff. Your always post interesting and poignant facts.
Still haven’t seen what extent Kelly was given in player personnel decisions at the time he was hired from an ‘on the record’ quote. Line seemed blurry at the time and it wasn’t clear to what extend Kelly had final say.
ARIZONA
From his own end zone, Bruce Arians calls a draw and two roll-out passes for Ryan Lindley, and then has the brass to yell at his punter for only punting it to the 30. #leaderofmen
The old “how can you not bail me out of my own self-inflicted screw up” trick.
I assume Bruce has already mentally typed the letter of protest he plans to send to his punter’s house.
Surprised there hasn’t been an article of Daily News headline with “In Chip We Trust”
Personally I think this is going to backfire and backfire badly. Part of it is not having a franchise QB (top 10 QB in place) and part of it will be Chip’s unwillingness to stick with this long-term when he realizes just how difficult it is to get and stay over the hump in the NFL. Need talent but also a lot of luck to avoid injuries especially to your star players.
Even Belichick had considerable dumb luck with Brady taking over from Bledsoe purely by accident and then having him last so long especially without almost any traumatic injuries.
The key’s the QB in the NFL.
Big off-season for Kelly and his staff.
Either he bets on Nick Foles — who’s as good as anyone in the NFL who’d be available in a trade.
Or Kelly rolls the dice — or tries to do that — to get a QB.
Or he puts the decision off another year by going with Foles . . . and misses out on a blockbuster deal to get Mariota.
Or not.
yeah honestly thats the difference between college and nfl i think. scheme matters more in college i think b/c you probably have only a handful of pro quality guys.
Slight disagreement – I think talent matters way more in college. Coaches with lousy game-plans are constantly bailed out by speed or strength, etc. And when they play an evenly matched team, one player frequently makes the difference. That’s actually why I think Chip is so intriguing – his scheme (at the college level) allowed him to consistently beat superior talent whether that was at UNH or Oregon.
No greater example of the amount talent can overcome all in college football than when Vince Young won the national title for his team virtually single handedly.
Painful to think about . . . .
How could Lindale White not gain 2 feet?
(Hated the play call, with a guard pulling around center on a 3rd and 1.)
(I’d lived nearly a decade in Texas as an adult. No way I could stand UTx winning that game. Ugh.)
I don’t see anyone being great at 20 so I’d really like them to trade out and try to pick up a 2016 1st round pick from a team that they think will be really bad next year. Give Foles another year and if he doesn’t prove to be the guy, take a QB high next year.
so that puts you 2-3 years at least away from contending for anything, CK’s first contract is up, probably with one playoff appearance to show for it. think he stays, think we want him to stay?
It’ll be really interesting to see how Kelly runs this draft.
At the 20 spot, you’re usually just about at the end of the 1st Rd-worthy players — or just outside (like last year at 22).
I’d love nothing more, as you suggest, than to see Kelly accumulate — Belichick style — lots of picks, including a 1st next year.
But Kelly’d need to get a very early 2nd in the deal.
Well, if Foles proves to be the guy, then you can just as easily use that top of the 1st pick on an elite player at another positiion. If Foles doesn’t prove capable, then you’d be looking for a top QB anyway. You’d either be looking at the draft or a veteran and there aren’t many you could pick up that would make you an automatic contender. Peyton Manning doesn’t become available every offseason. I doubt sacrificing a pick at 20th overall will be the difference between Foles being successful and/or contending for a Super Bowl. Putting yourself in position at least to get a top-tier QB in the draft is a good strategy.
This was meant to be a reply to anon below. I clicked on the wrong “Reply”.
obviously marioha is a special situation. i think he’s unrealistic. But if you forego him AND foles isn’t the guy then you’re in a pretty poor position b/c you aren’t going anywhere in the NFC without a QB, especially the way they want the team built.
I think they stick with Nick, but it could be a long road if he ends up not to be the guy, or injury prone.
A:
If Kelly is willing to part with either Fletcher Cox or Lane Johnson, acquiring the pick for Mariota is actually not at all an unreasonable scenario — assuming a willing partner in the Bucs.
The questions are obvious in that scenario.
But parting with either of those players makes a move to the top of Rd 1 possible — without shipping off 2 additional No. 1 picks, plus other lower picks.
(Edit: striking the word “very” before “possible.”)
Not advocating. Just noting.
(IMHO based on a review of similar deals since the common draft started in 1967.)
Don’t discount the “magic beans” phenomenon. Bucs’ fans (and management) might very well value what mythical treasures an untested QB might bring them much more than pick #20 and a young, dominant, athletic OT or DT. They need a QB to pin their hopes on. As such, it might take Foles plus Johnson or Cox plus #20 to do it. And then it starts to get REALLY crazy.
FWIW, I’m not sure I’d part with Johnson or Cox (hee hee) at all for Mariota, as much as I like him and his fit with Chip. Johnson’s replacement doesn’t currently exist on the roster and since he’s the heir apparent to Peters at LT, it’s really robbing from two important positions. What good is Mariota if he doesn’t have a run game or protection? Also, Cox is very much the anchor of a defense in desperate need of a talent infusion. Losing him sets that process back at least another year, and scoring 50 points won’t matter if we give up 51…
AC – I know GEagle will kill me but Foles + Cox might make this deal work. I just keep thinking that without a SB level QB, you are just not going to make it. Is Chip willing to roll the dice on Mariota, I really don’t know. But I am beginning to believe that the Blur offense needs a mobile threat.
Man that would be tough to swallow.
I could live with Foles + Lane Johnson though.
Edit: Plus #20 and I assume our 2nd Rounder as well.
Cox or Johnson would be tough to swallow.
Ahem.
Busted!
I agree, but it will only happen with a LOT of PAIN for Eagles fans, myself included. Because it is a roll of the dice for greatness. You need BIG BALLS for such a trade.
OD / mksp:
The Bucs just re-upped DT Gerald McCoy for huge money.
Not sure they’d want FCox — for money reaons. That’s a lot of money at DT.
Although Lovie Smith’s defense — with Lavonte David at OLB — would immediately take huge step up.
But LJ? The Bucs are team that started on the O-line 4 cast-offs and recently acquired OG Logan Mankins.
The Bucs aren’t winning any titles anytime soon — so they’ll be drafting in the top 10 or so again next year.
Add an OT like LJohnson, plus a 1st at No. 20, plus another draft pick (that equates to a 2nd this year or next). Now you’re building a team.
Since this is infinitely more enjoyable than watching two garbage teams “fight” for their playoff lives, what about if the Bucs take local (and more projectable) product Jameis Winston? He’s already cozy with the state attorney…
If that happens, action switches to picks #2 – 4 (I assume) since even though Tennessee, Jacksonville and Oakland have their quarterbacks (Tennessee is debatable), Washington sits at #5 as a wildcard with the Jets right behind them. Still would take a boatload, but perhaps a slightly smaller boat… like “only” a Russian mobster’s vanity yacht or something…
I think the Bucs will take Winston. Then we can deal with whoever wants Marcus next. The Russian angle works for me!
Who do you think would want him next? That becomes the question. If you’re a Titans’ fan and Winston goes off the board first, is there a new market for your pick for either Mariota / Leonard Williams / Randy Gregory? Don’t know who would be “worth” trading up to #2 other than those guys, but you have to think Jacksonville and Gus Bradley will want a defensive stud so that will up the cost for trade partners. It’s also why it would make sense for Tennessee to portray themselves as suitors for Winston and Mariota as well as Williams and Gregory, whether they want any of those guys or not.
I’m beginning to believe the same thing about the Blur offense. But I also believe you need a high caliber passer at the NFL level to win big. So where does this leave us?
If you look at the potential QBs out there this year who are already in the NFL and have mobility (e.g. Locker, Ponder), they don’t really fit the bill. I think Foles beats out this sorts of dudes pretty easily. I also don’t see anyone in college who I really trust outside of Mariota (Hundley is the closest fit imo but the risk is pretty high).
So, I’m left with trading for Mariota. I absolutely can’t get behind the idea of trading multiple high picks when you’re “building a program,” but parting with Foles + 1 is the best risk to me. I’m not sure if Cox is worth it as the +1, but I could live with LJ.
At the very least, the singular Kelly vision would be complete and then we’d know for sure whether Kelly and his offense are for real.
Completely agree.
With the NFL focus on offense, you need a stellar QB more so than a stud running back like it used to be when the league featured shutdown defenses and elite running attacks (ground and pound). This is the NFL they want, and that means only teams with elite level QB play are going to find much success.
Given that we’re all sharing our wild speculation and fantasy here, I would not be surprised to see Chip trade McCoy and some picks to get to Mariota if for some reason he deems it necessary. I’m sure he realizes that solid running backs pretty much fall from trees these days.
Not saying I think it will happen, but on the concept of ‘you just never know’…
can’t trade a $12m running back.
Also can’t trade Lane Johnson (there’s no way Chip does this in reality)…like I said, in the realm of crazy stuff that should never happen happens….I don’t see us getting Mariota at all.
N:
Why can’t Lane Johnson be traded?
He’s not irreplaceable.
3 of the Eagles starters — all of them All Pros or Pro Bowlers this year or last — were drafted in Rd 6 (Kelce), Rd 3 (Mathis), and RFA (Peters).
And LJ’s still a RT, not a LT. (The theory is he’ll become a LT, but we have no idea if he’ll even be good enough.)
I’m not advocating anything.
But I am suggesting there’s a way to make the “big jump” — and it will cost a very, very good player.
But what’s more important? A ROT? Or a QB?
Offseason will be very exciting or VERY disappointing.
You were saying? 😉
McCoy’s trade value wouldn’t seem to be very much.
He has a huge contract.
He’s entering his 7th season.
And he’s a RB.
Getting a 4th for him would be a steal.
think CK hates the deals that Mccoy, Cole and Djax had? Everyone seems to want to re-work after watching djax. maybe that’s the best thing to come out of djax getting moved.
Collateral benefit, to be sure. (Cutting DJax)
Cole, though, I think knows — with only 6.5 sacks ofr the season, at age 32, a converted DE, and 1 sack in his last 6 games — that at $11 million next season, he has no choice. He knew that when he signed.
McCoy’s more interesting. The team could probably afford his deal.
But at this point, if cut loose entirely, what kind of deal would McCoy get as a pure FA? I don’t know.
Also, the fact he raised the subject first may suggest that more to Kelly’s view of McCoy than “he’s a great RB.”
Finally . . . the players all say they love Kelly.
But they also seem to have the impression — even before the past few days — that Kelly doesn’t believe in paying a lot of money to these guys. Just enough to keep them. But not a penny more. Interesting.
agree all of them almost to a man is ready to talk. I think everyone knows “it’s a business”.
The contract bit is easy to work out if there’s a will to do it. He’s still Shady, 7th season or not, he’s low on the wear and tear. He’s also worth more than Foles or anyone else being floated in these absurd trade scenarios. Foles after last season? Sure, someone might have been willing to trade for him and some picks. After half a season of playing like hot garbage and not playing a game since mid-season? Not a chance (especially when anyone high on Foles knows they’ll have a chance at him in a season if Chip is that desperate for an upgrade at QB). And if you need a QB, why take Foles instead of Mariota or Winston? 2013 Foles, maybe. 2014 Foles, no way in hell.
Fletcher Cox? Doubt many in the league value him the way Chip Kelly does. All of these scenarios are absurd IMHO, I’m not really invested in defending the one I pulled from my rear end because I honestly see none of them happening.
“Fletcher Cox? Doubt many in the league value him the way Chip Kelly does.”
Cox was voted 2nd-team All Pro (Assoc Press). Lots of NFL folks consider Cox among the very best on the D-line in the league. If he were in a 1-gap scheme, some think he’d be piling up stats.
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Regarding the “absurd” scenario of a big trade, why?
The Falcons did it for Julio Jones? He’s an All Pro. Atlanta made the playoffs his first two years. And there’s less than an even chance the picks given up by the Falcons would have put to better use by ATL than CLE.
Kelly’s an out-side-the-box thinker.
If anyone will explore — and pull the trigger — on a big, creative trade move, I think it’s Kelly . . . IF he thinks Marioto is “The Answer.”
Let’s just put this into reality. Cox is a talent, but he’s not likely valuable enough alone to get us a top 5 pick and we don’t have a surplus of talent in the areas of need that exist with the teams that own the top 5 picks. So we’d need to give him up plus a bunch of future first round picks (the ‘skins gave up 3 plus a couple of 2nd rounders just to move up 4 spots for RG3).
The Bucs aren’t taking Cox and some picks for the 1st pick overall when they need a QB and there is pass rushing talent to be had elsewhere. They need a QB. Maybe they take Winston (doubtful, but a lot can happen between now and then).
The Titans aren’t taking that deal for the same reason. Even if they think they have the guy they need under center in Mettenberger, Leonard Williams goes off the board to them unless he shits the bed hard between now and then (again, lot can happen, but going on what we know now).
The Jags don’t need a QB, they seem sold on Bortles, but they also may feel they have more pressing needs than what Cox can provide (though pass rush is a need, they might prefer to draft Gregory or Ray if available). Jacksonville is the only play I can even remotely see for Cox, but it still requires Super Mariota to be passed over by the Bucs (not happening unless he gets seriously injured, arrested/implicated in something nasty or has horrendous National Championship and Combine performance) and Titans.
Raiders don’t need a QB, but they need to give Carr someone to throw it to. If we had Maclin under contract we could try that route, but Amari Cooper will be there to take at #4.
The potatoes may or may not need a QB (depends on if Gruden is still around and allowed to dump RG3). They might be stupid enough to let us mortgage our future for Mariota, but again, he’d have to last that long and Washington would have to be willing to allow a division rival an opportunity to get a franchise signal caller. They’re kinda stupid down there, but they’re not THAT stupid.
No matter what, getting into the top 5 would require a bigger sacrifice than what the Redskins gave up for RG3. It’s just not happening.
After all of that, we hit the Jets, sans Rex Ryan, who will certainly take a QB or any offensive weapon that is available at #6.
The Bears are a possibility as they’re so bereft on defense it’s almost criminal. But again, Mariota would need to last that long, which he most likely won’t.
It’s just not happening. You and others think it might, I don’t see it. It would require a lot of things that are highly unlikely to happen to actually happen. I think we can agree to disagree and let’s pick this line of discussion back up in the weeks leading up to the draft, okay?
Shady? No way. Le’veon bell is perfect for our system, 2nd round pick. Lacy is like a 3rd, Hill is a second or third i think. Plus if you’re trying to play ball control Shady is not your guy.
Chip doesn’t strike me as someone who gives up when things get challenging, quite the opposite actually. He strikes me as someone who enjoys challenge and is motivated by it.
Also, not having a “franchise QB” would not really be a backfire unless he makes a poor draft decision in selling out for a QB or over drafts one in the early rounds. Not having one in place already isn’t his fault so it can’t be a backfire.
This game may turn into shah8’s opus.
QBs need to make plays to win playoff games. Whatever it takes.
its true, especially against good ds.
Especially when you have extremely limited talent around you, *particularly* in the skill positions.
Not watching. Actually working! Is Joe Webb playing for Carolina now?
They may need him at WR actually. In all honesty.
But to your point, no, Cam is just making plays with his legs. Converted a 3rd and 9 and 3rd and 12 on scrambles.
ginn having 49ers flashbacks
I can already hear Bruce Arians’ crying over the refs in his presser later. Thankfully the Cards are out. Now let’s get Fitz somehow.
Never count out a team when they’re facing Cam!
That was such a bonehead throw from a QB with 50+ starts under his belt. Smh
Yeah. Cam is very interesting. I obviously watched him at Auburn where things were simpler: read-option, or play-action with 2 reads. Carolina wants him to make multiple reads, which is clearly not his strength. I have NO idea whether that’s something you can learn and get better at, or whether you have to be born with it, but either way, he hasn’t improved.
Also, I think his considerable talent and intangibles might make him believe he’s above things like footwork (which feeds into the above). If you think Foles throws off his back foot too much…
i like ajax
I like Amsterdam.
i like vjax
Oh Cam…
I’m not a fan of head coaches with absolute power, but I am confident chip can handle this. Chip has ego, but he will listen to others if what they are saying makes sense. Chip is smart enough to know what he doesn’t know, he has a track record of delegating to assistants and letting them do their job, I assume this will be carried over to the Personel department.
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I’d be fascinated to find out what he didn’t likes from the previous setup, how it held us back, and what changes does he feel he needs to make to build what he has in mind?
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Very curious to see who he hires, I hope he hires an outsider. And I’m curious to see what the timeline will be for when this hire will be made. There is tons of prep work that needs to be done before free agency and the draft
And Arizona coughs it right back up to Kuechly…
I hope chip is watching this game. You need Qbs that can stay healthy. AZ takes this game easy if CP is healthy.
I’m not sure they’d win with Palmer either
No? they’d have a lot more than 60yds through 3 quarters.
Many times over when a coach takes on more power, it usually fails. When Andy Reid took over more power here, it got worse for him; when he took over in KC, he declined the extra duties stating that it was his downfall in Philly.
If CK goes on with this, he better win a title before he leaves. I feel he’s torn with what he sees in Oregon as he’s watching the players he picked before he left play for all the marbles….and I see him leaving in 2-3 years.
RE:
After Reid became the Eagles’ football Czar after the 2001 season, the team:
1. Reached the Playoffs 6 times in 9 seasons;
2. Reached the Divisional Round 4 times in 7 years;
2. Went to 3 NFC title games in 7 years;
3. Went to 1 SB.
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Coincidentally or not, the Eagles missed the playoffs 2 out of the 3 seasons that Roseman was GM during the Reid regime.
you think that;s what ck said to lurie?
Well, if not citing Reid, Kelly could easily point to Pete Carroll and Belichick.
But Lurie gets the lay of the NFL land.
If you don’t have a great coach, it doesn’t matter if you accumulate LOADS of talent . . . .
Look at the 49ers before Harbaugh.
SF had Baalke and talent. But no coach.
be interesting to see who 49ers can get — could be full rebuild for them.
I thought so, but the coaches they are interviewing makes me believe they are going to retool on the fly like we tried to do in 2010 and keep their veterans.
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If they were going to blow it up and rebuild, they wouldn’t have scheduled interviews with Rex Ryan and Mike Shanahan
both are terrible but understandable choices. offense dies with rex. shanny gets a call bc of what he did with RGIII but….
I think SF is headed toward mediocrity —
Unless Kaepy takes a huge step forward . . . since the NFL is all about the QB.
Otherwise, Jed York will be reviled in the Bay area until that team wins a SB.
just moved to the bay from nyc, it’ll be interesting to see if fans are fair weather. unfortunately i got here too late to see us play oak in oak.
What a day that would have been!
i’m sure tickets were $20 to the game too. *sigh* Also just missed us playing 49ers this year — shows importance of timing.
Yeah, that hurts.
Have you been to any Raiders’ games?
Heard anything about what it’s like at a game there (stadium aside), especially for fans rooting for the visitor?
I have not, but can see your point — be safer to go to Silicon Valley with the techies.
Has to be.
I think that had more to do with the loss of Jim Johnson(RIP) and the constant exodus of quality assistants that Reid wasn’t able to adequately replace.
I understand that argument.
But if you’re gonna put the heat on Reid, you have to give him the credit.
As great as JJ was, the Eagles still had to score.
Look at AZ with Lindley. It’s not like anyone can play QB in the NFL on a team with a great defense and win.
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That said, the last 2-3 years of Reid were a disaster in terms of assistant coaching choices as much as anything else.
If he’d been able to get Todd Bowles as the D.C., as he says he wanted after firing McDermott, 2011 may have been — would have been — very different.
Best coach in the history of philly sports. RIP JJ!!!
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He used to find the PIGEON(weak link) on every offensive line and devise that weeks blitz packages/gameplan to attack THAT pigeon
interesting b/c it doesn’t seem like we do that now – we just play our D.
. . . Except in the NFC Title Game
McNabb’s decline was the biggest reason
And out of all the seasons under Reid, how many drafts would you consider successful? 2002 he had the best draft, IMO.
RE:
I was never a big Reid guy. HATED the play calling. Always thought JJ didn’t get enough credit for the regular season production. His idea that WRs didn’t matter — until Carolina drilled into his head they did drove me crazy.
Draft wise?
I never liked the Czar concept.
Reid inherited some great defensive pieces, some offensive pieces, had the 2002 draft, and — most important — did a great job turning Donovan McNabb into a very, very good QB.
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But recently . . .
You have Carroll and Belichick.
And you have, in Lurie’s mind, the remarkable difficulty of finding great NFL Head Coaches (which is correct).
So what was Lurie to do?
“So what was Lurie to do?”
At the end of the day, this is the only question that matters. And Lurie literally had no choice but to give Chip what he wanted. That’s the nature of the NFL.
Hard to believe that Howie didn’t see this coming, though at 37 (when Chip was hired), maybe not surprising either.
The naivete of youth….
well he got CK to come which was a huge coup. 2012 draft looking good.
I don’t really care about the org chart. I care about process. How are these decisions being reached? I think it needs to be very thoroughly researched, debated, and considered, and falls apart if it becomes too “seat-of-the-pants”. So it depends on the quality of the guy Chip brings in, but also in Chip’s ability to trust the people working for him.
1) Another fan of sports science, Nolan Carroll talked about how he has NEVER felt THIS good at the end of an NFL season, Nolan is going to start on the outside next year, and i have a feeling Fans are going to be PISSED when they see how capable he is on the outside and get pissed that Bradley Fletcher was left outside all year….if you thought Nolan did a good job playing inside, this was the first time he has ever played inside, he is a much better outside corner than the caoable inside corner we saw,this year in our dime package.
Nolan Carrol will 100% start on the outside next year, if we get a new outside corner, he will replace Cary. If not we will roll with Cary and Nolan and start growing a CB we draft on the bench..
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2) Todd Herremans had some interesting comments, He says the silver lining from this years mess is that he believes they developed some good OL depth, and because of that new depth, we should be set at OL for next year, sounds like Todd Genuinly doesn’t expect too many OL additions next year.
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3) Taylor Hart says he has made pretty signifcant strides in the weight room, and that he didn’t get to play because everyone stayed healthy on the DL, but it sounds like he was expecting Gametime if someone got hurt and he would have gotten to dress
,,
4) Demeco Ryan will be an eagle next year. Chip the mightly all powerful wants Mufasa back, and Meco is staying in Philly to do his entire rehab at Novacare, He managed to overcome the last ACL and he didn’t even get to do the complete rehab because it was during the lockouts Seems really confidemt that he will be an eagle next year, and I would be pretty surprised if he wasnt
carroll barely played, i’m sure he and boykin played great. i’m sure todd doesn’t see ol moves b/c he’d be the first one to get replaced. hart will be interesting next year be nice to upgrade thorton. funny we’re a 34 but our DL is way better than our OLB as a group.
i think that’s why we try to stay in base — fewer of our dbs see the field the better?
No, because when we stay on base we play our weak corners, Cary and Bradley…. Why woudnt you want to get Boykin and even Nolan into the game? We have Safetoes who can play man, allowing us to stay in base for the sole purpose of not letting teams force us into Nickel and then run on us like the Saints playoff loss… If you take last years game, take jenkins and put him on our side instead of Chung, and put Sproles on our team and we don’t lose that saints game… Jenkins on our team would have kept us in base, and they WOULDNT have been able to run all over our Nickel, Sproles would give us the return yards, and even more important he wouldn’t gash us like he did…
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No doubt that jenkins and Sproles were the difference in that Saints loss.
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Nolan will surprise people…. I’d be willing to bet he starts at outside corner for us in September. I think Cary is the bigger question. Assume bradley is gone, Jaylen Collins is drafted
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Herremans shouldnt care if they upgrade. Back up OL by adding another allen Barbre type. Signing another quality BARBRE type backüp shouldnt threaten Herremans. It’s safe to assume Molk,Garner, Tobin, Dennis Kelly are probably much better than they were last summer, after having got so much game experience. Unfortunately they didn’t get much continuity. But the Back up OL was balling in the preseason.. We should see much improved second string OL that should look pretty dominant against backups in the preseason next year, especially since they will get to play next to the same players they always play and practce next year. Our backüp OL was really good in the preseason last year, to show growth. They need to be dominant next preseason.
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I assume Dion Jordan will be an eagle now that his price tags has dropped signifcantly. The GM didn’t draft Dion, Dion is two years removed from his top 5 status. Two years of underperforming and it really lowers his value that he is on the drug program now and will get big suspensions next time he gets in trouble… The GM and HEADCoach know this next year is their LAST CHANCE and both can be fired this time next year. They won’t give a crap about waiting for Dion to realize his potential… I assume they will take all the help they can get for THIS YEAR trying to survive as coach and GM past this season..I assume you can get Dion for a 3rd or 4th, possibly trade them a player that can help them right away…., so I’m thinking it will be Dion,Barwin, Marcus, and possibly BG or Cole.
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Unfortunately I have a hard time envisioning that we would not pay Brandon Graham and allow him to go, but then go spend the 20mil guaranteed on someone elses OLB like Jabaal Sheard…
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If we do have Dion, Marcus and Barwin for next year, and if we aren’t going to spend up to the Max of our salary cap, I would rather see us he Greedy and Franchise Tag Brandon Graham just to help transition to Marcus and Dion era.. Giving us two waves of OLBs to throw at teams…you have to have more than two edge rushers… If we are just going to not spend all our cap money like we do every year, I would rather overpay and give that money to Brandon Graham on a 1yr franchise Tag
“we have safeties that can play man” — questionable as to how good they are at playing man.
I’m happy to see Nolan try on the outside, but literally who is Nolan Carroll? He’s a nobody. Will he get burned by Djax and Dez, and ODB, yes. You can’t expect a $3m corner to cover pro bowl WRs unless we get MUCH better safety help. But the problem with the scheme is that those safeties are trying to help LBs that are on TEs / WRs (see witten, donnell, jordan reed when healthy). So single high safety can’t be in two places at once.
We need better cover LBs – the fact we have T. Cole, B. Graham and C. Matthews trying to play in space is silly.
We need better safeties, some that can play man and have instincts to play single high.
We need corners that have a chance to play against Wrs in the division. We’re giving up 400yds to Eli Manning who is playing w/out V. Cruz. Giving up 300+ to everyone in the division. I can go on but it’s frustrating.
“We need better cover LBs – the fact we have T. Cole, B. Graham and C. Matthews trying to play in space is silly.”
Why I don’t think Graham (and probably Cole) will be back, and also why they drafted Marcus Smith last year. They want the rush linebackers to also cover guys.
my hope for MSII, i’d love to see him as a Dion J-type player. Think that’s how he was sold to Howie.
If we traded BG and a First for Dion — does that seem like a bad move now? Wonder if Howie said no, take MSII, same type of player and it didn’t work out.
BG’s no longer under contract. BG and a first for Dion after two years of Dion being next to invisible would be way too much.
You gonna put a gun to Belliceks head and force him to give us Revis? I know exactly what we have, I know exactly what we NEED…..UNFORTUNATELY, I KNOW how hard it will be to take care of those needs in THIS YEARS free agent market
“I assume Dion Jordan will be an eagle now that his price tags has dropped significantly. . . . Unfortunately I have a hard time envisioning that we would not pay Brandon Graham and allow him to go, but then go spend the 20mil guaranteed on someone elses OLB like Jabaal Sheard.”
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If Kelly can acquire Jordan — who’s still on his rookie contract — I don’t think Graham’s coming back.
I still am struck that he could not beat out Trent Cole, who had no sacks in 5 of his last 6 games.
‘Had no sack in 5 of his last 6 games” BG didn’t have a sack in his final 7
Nevertheless — before the termination of Roseman’s personnel responsibilities — the Eagles were chatting with BGraham’s agent.
WILL THAT DISCUSSION END?
OR GAIN SPEED?
Hopefully end
Whichever will reveal a lot about:
1. Kelly’s view of Graham,
2. Kelly’s view of TCole, and
3. Kelly’s view of MSII
very interesting point. what about negotiations of all FAs? starting from square 1.
Probably not,
Think chip is really high on BG… When you overcome the transition he has overcome, play at a high level in a contract year, and not make it about your stats, or your playing time, only making it about helping the Eagles win…. On top of all that, he even managed to grow into a i HECKUVA ST player who had some key monster blocks on some of the big TD returns…… You can bet chi respects him, and values him. Heck he had a 2.5mil contract buns hanging n the balance of the playing time he got this year, and never made it about hm. Dude was all in, run thru any brick wall to help this team win, and I wouldn’t be so quick to let that get away….especially a tough son of a bitch who took all our shit, all the ust talk we threw at him for years, microfracture surgery, and persevered to become that first round talemt he wAs supposed to be,,, I don’t think you let go of men like that so easily,…and I bet chip feels the same.
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Hopefully we can work it out. But I would expect chip to try hard and keep him here… But we’ll see
It’s sad that we’re considering paying graham in a 34. But that’s the state of where we are, which is why, as a HC, i’d be pissed. BG has done everything from a “work” standpoint but he just doesn’t have the physical tools to play in space. We’re a scheme that requires LBs to play in space, i think that’s part of why our DBs look terrible.
Anon: “. . . play[ing] in space”
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Can’t mention that enough.
To max-out Kelly’s schemes — on both sides of the ball — requires players who’re more athletic than the usual NFL players at their positions (who are already incredibly athletic).
Great point.
Really good point. I love our front seven against the run and we had a fairly strong pass rush as well. Our LB’s as a group are awful against the pass. Barwin and Kendricks are the standouts, and neither is a lock the opposing TE down type player. As great a team player as Demeco is, he’s become a large liability in zone and Trent has always been below average. He improved dramatically this year and was still below average. Great DB’s may not be enough to ‘fix’ our defense.
Hart should be an upgrade over Brandon Bair next year
And if he’s not?
Just a hypothetical.
Then cut him and sign someone else. Bair was pretty terrible this year so the bar is low
Bair was terrible and player what was Hart looking like? Maybe he was too small. Could you imagine if we spent a 3rd on a guy that was too small to play this year AND a first on MSII. We’d be in full blowup mode right now on the blogs.
Oregon effort guy… will never start in the NFL.
Further what if measurable approach doesn’t work and we consistently get effort over talent — “Speedballs”.
Decade plus of that method . . . . pass.
Ryans has value, but not $6.9M for next year value.
lots of players are in the expensive years of their contracts and because we haven’t gotten good value in drafts we have no cheap replacements.
I didn’t say he would get to keep his current deal
I think the “sports science” advantage took a substantial hit in 2014.
You’re talking about a team that went 1-3 in December.
Away with your facts.
You can feel great and not execute well. I think it’s foolish to assume that what the DECEMBER collapse was just a product of fatigue? Come on..
GEagle:
I don’t disagree.
What I meant — and should have said more expansively — is that, around the NFL, I suspect there are some people in management on other teams who’re saying, “Ah ha, knew it . . . bogus sports science gimmick.”
That kind of stuff. And they’ll try to create a new perception. To gain whatever advantage they can.
It’s smart business.
The truth about what happened is both more and less complicated.
Half the sports science is bullshit anyway. Not bullshit, but not anything special that only we do… Half of all the extreme monitoring we do of players bodies and all that stuff is also being used by the “advanced analytic geeks” taking over the NBA… Sixers coach refers to the SIXERS sports science program all the time… We probably make too much out of the sports science but I 100% believe we are the best trained team in the NFL. Its not complicated. We run more than anyone else, we probably are in better shape than anyone else. At the very least we can count on us to be guaranteed to be in better shape at playing our brand of football than our opponents are. That won’t mean anything if our opponent has the ball for 50 minutes….but I do believe we are the best trained team in the NFL regardless of its just good OL fashioned hard work, sports sciemce, or crazy voodoo
” I 100% believe we are the best trained team in the NFL.”
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Absolutely concur.
The problems in December don’t seem to have been about health.
1) Either Carroll is worse than Fletcher or we have a defensive coordinator that is incompetent. That said, I think we are probably better off if Carrol isn’t good enough to start at corner (which is what Miami’s coaches thought too after seeing him play)
2) How did we develop OL depth? The guys that replaced the starters were awful, all of them. The only silver lining here is that we identified that our backup OL stink and need to be replaced.
3) LOL…. really? Oh man…
4) That’s a good thing. He’s still a competent starter. He’s not great, but considering what we have behind him he’s a relative All-pro.
MIA went with Grimes who is a pro bowl DB and let Carroll go. Could have grimes two years ago for cheap but he’s too small.
Keeping Davis is already strike one this offseason.
There’s still a lot of time for that. Roseman was the GM a few days ago.
We can dream . . .
LK making huge plays.
We have discussed Fitz maybe becoming available, how about Aldon Smith? If BG really leaves and the Niners possibly being in rebuild mode, Smith would be a great addition. Not sure how Chippah values his character though.
no way in hell 🙁
Feel free to elaborate, my friend.
aldon smith? too much off the field.
thats what I assumed your hell was all about.
Yep. No way!
what did he do? get videotaped screaming racial slurs at people in public or something?
that’s funny, but the substance abuse, the shouting bomb at the airport, etc. etc.
The drugs are worrying though. The Eagles don’t want to place their faith in a guy that might end up suspended because he fails a pee test.
And with the recent focus on domestic violence, we can’t have someone who might throw a woman out of his party bus on the side of the Jersey turnpike or anything.
The Eagles just can’t have guys like that around.
What, did the arrest for firing off his unregistered AK 47 in the air at his house party turn you off? It’s totally acceptable in Kabul and Bagdad, why not Malibu??
It’s odd, on a level, that we are all so concerned about Chip’s ability to run a personnel department (effectively).
To date, has he given us any reason to believe that the won’t approach this aspect of team building with the same thorough, thoughtful and innovative attitude that he has approached every other aspect of football?
I think this mostly stems from our general ennui regarding the 2014 draft, but we’re far from truly understanding the success (or lack thereof) of that particular class at this time.
For now, I’m going to assume that Chip’s intellect and work ethic, along with his fervent belief in process, will lead to good things.
he could have a great plan, but it’s unclear if that plan fits the way the world works.
The real world or the football world?
Chip seemingly has a pretty good grasp on the football world.
And the real world, if you were to ask me.
you think so, djax cut not real world. But even from total “choir boys” over “talent” could not be effective.
Fair point. Also impossible to truly measure the impact of that move, though certainly a question.
mentioned below it could be great for keeping guys with bloated contracts in line. Though you hate to see djax go put up 1000yds in WAS with 3 different (terrible) qbs. But then again you saw every eagle FA ready to re-negotiate.
Think def helped keep players in line.
To paraphrase the immortal words of DC Comics . . .
“This seems like a job for D3FB!!!”
[expounding on Chip and the whole innovate scouting thing.]
YES.
We saw glimpses of it these past two years (e.g. measuring the wrists and knees of players, “big people beat up little people”), but not necessarily the full vision.
D3FB’s thoughts here would be welcome.
Lol 77 yards
If Carson Palmer doesn’t get hurt, AZ is off today and waiting for the winner of Dallas v. Seattle.
They weren’t that Good with him despite what their record said
I don’t know.
That defense was damned tough.
And the schedule down the stretch had enough winnable games where — if AZ just split with Seattle and they finish in a tie — AZ wins the west.
8-0?
Re: Speaking of Axing Players and Other Things . . .
For those who think Kelly won’t trade a couple 1st Rd picks and Lane Johnson or Fletcher Cox (for example) if he thinks that will get him the QB to take the Eagles to the Super Bowl more than a few times . . .
1. Kelly cut DJax — with Riley Cooper at one WR, and ZERO assurance Maclin would be what he was or the Eagles would get Jordan Matthews in the draft.
2. Kelly, when talking about the offense’s tempo and time-of-possession and the impact on his defense says, “too bad, the defense needs to do it’s job.”
3. The three best Eagles O-linemen were (left to right): rookie free agent, 3rd Rd pick signed off the FA scrap heap, 6th Rd pick.
4. Kelly’s the most innovative, forward thinking coach in the NFL (you can read that on this blog from time to time).
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With all that, I put nothing past Kelly.
The guy does NOT think about this stuff the way the rest of us do.
He may look at all the draft-day trades over the past 25 years by teams holding Picks 1-3 and conclude (as the data seems to show) that giving up picks in the 20s (with the lower likelihood of success) versus getting a blue-chip stud is probably not a bad risk.
Impossible to know.
And nothing he says publicly is worth a damn. (Which is as it should be.)
Wonder what Howie’s role was in the Mathis & Kelce pick ups…..as a “scrap heap” FA and 6th round pick, I’d bet it’s a bigger role than one would think off the bat.
Kelce was part of the 2011 draft.
So Lurie would blame Reid for choosing Kelce.
Mathis was signed before the 2011 season. So, again, Lurie would blame Reid for that, too.
In Lurie’s post-Reid/pre-Kelly as Czar world, Roseman gets no credit — because those moves happened before Roseman was allegedly calling the 2012 draft and accountable for the personnel moves.
_______________
In truth, I’d be willing to give Roseman plenty of credit.
I don’t care to dispute anything from this post, but I will say that Howie had to have been doing something right for Lurie to be so high on him. I don’t put it past LURIE to lie about Roseman being responsible for 2012, but I absolutely believe that LURIE was keeping track of how each man was performing in talent evaluations and If Howie isn’t responsible for 2012, he has to have been right about Something for LURIE to have trusted him so much…
Talented guys aren’t always the ones most loved by management.
GEAGLE . . .
I was being totally facetious.
Like I said at the end of that comment, I would give Roseman LOTS of credit for those moves.
In fact, as I understand how Reid ran his drafts, ROSEMAN made all the picks starting with Rd 3 (whenever he became GM ’til Reid’s firing).
Reid’s on record saying that.
I hope Cox gets extended because he needs to be safe
No worries. Kid will be here a long time
He’s my favorite can’t lose Desean and him in back to back seasons
Dude, I named my first puppy Flether Cox lol
That was no “puppy.”
As I recall, it was just a little dog waiting to grow into a very large dog!
I have 3 brothers, Tho my sister has “bennie Logan” right now. I have Fletcher and Cedrick… Seriously, this is not an exaggeration, they are at 14months old 162lbs… Lol amd they think they are lap dogs. I could never have any other breed but a Cane Corso. Just too smart, amazing guard dogs, so much personality… I will never have any other breed dog…. Cedrick Thorntons wife Loves my puppy Cedrick Thornton… Cox will retweet picks I put up of Cox every once a while lol
Where’s Baloophi?
He’d be asking if you mean “protected”?
Extendes, safe, Cox, I definitely played right into his hand
Eww…right into his hand?
I prefer to go by the evidence that Chip already addressed these issues a few times since the loss to the skins…about how 1 player ismt worth losing 5 players over, and he said something similar like 3 times in one week, even using les Bowan as an example, “I would love to give les Bowan 50mil, but then we would lose because he wouldn’t have enough help around him and its a team game”… Gave a similar response for both the will you trade for Mariotta question, and will you sign a 50millipn dollar free agent question
GEagle:
You’re right that what Kelly says is “evidence.”
At this point, I joint don’t think what he says is *credible* evidence — with which I have no problem.
On his examples, screwing up the cap is stupid management. So nothing remarkable there.
Trading for Mariota? I don’t think he’s addressed that directly. That’d be out of character and, regardless, GM-coaches change their minds all the time.
The past few days have reminded me that Kelly sees the world WAY differently than I do.
He’s not the least bit conventional about anything regarding football.
Generally speaking, I would agree… But I think fundamentally chip DOESNT believe any player is worth the absurdities people are throwing around for Martiotta… NOT EVERYTHING that comes out of chips mouth will be a lie… And I believe him when he says that, because
A) I know chip understands the ramifications of that trade, and how it will cripple the ability to build around the QB..
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B) I completely believe chip views Nick as one of the special young ones… So it would make paying an absurd price for Marriotta ridiculous.
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I assume Chip kelly thinks that FOles, Cox, Lane, and 3 first round picks, are a quicker path to a Super Bowl than Marriôtta, and needing to wait 3 years TIL we pick in the first round again..
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Think chip is smart enough to know that THE ONLY young QBs who have won SUPERBOWLS were QBs on Teams SO STACKED that the young QB could function as a game manager. you damn sure don’t see a Young QB who is the best player on his team carrying a franchise to Supefbowl wins..
…..
If we had a stacked defense in place, a great OL, run game, stacked arsenal of WRs, you could consider mortgaging your future for a QB because all he has to do is be a game manager and Not lose the game, and you will be good enough to compete for a SB…we aren’t done Building this team to what it needs to be, so your QB is worthless if you are going to cripple our ability to build the team up around him…
..
Marriotta couldnt make it thru 16 games this year behind our OL mess. NO QB would have been able to play 16 games… we have too much building to do to make a crazy move like that…… Not to mention how bad the Bucs would juice us knowing how badly chip has to have Marriôtta.
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I simply don’t believe it. I can’t spend 5 months talking about somthing I don’t believe to even be possible. We can agree to disagree, these are my thougjhts on the irresponsible trade proposal, I will gracefully bow out from all future Marriptta trade debates. Cheers
What else do we need on offense aside from a healthy o-line?
Defense is where a lot of work needs to be done. If we aren’t paying a QB for 5 more years you have a lot of $$ to play with to buy/extend people.
We need a WR like Devin Smith, deep threat on the outside opposite of Maclin as our possesion, volume WR. Jordan Mathews as the slot Machine, Huff as the “Queen chess piece” that lines up all over…
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If NOT a Devin Smith, than we Need a big Body WR on the outside
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Either would replace Coop well.
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We need ATleast 2 OL, another T/G like Jake Fisher and another G/C like Grasu
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Might need more TE’s soon, no idea how much longer we keep Celek or Casey
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For all those that can’t stand the thought of Cary and Nolan, dong hold your breath expecting free agent upgrades. You probably wonthave a better option until you draft and develop corners ourselves.
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We need 1safety unless Wolff, Reynolds, or Jaylen Watkins prove to be the answer.
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ILB to eventually replace Meco
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If we lose BG and COle we need more OLBs. marcus and Barwin aren’t enough
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Unless you extend Vinny Curry Longterm, not only will we need another DL, but he will need to be a better interior pass rusher than Ced, Bennnie, Beau, Bair, Hart….
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We have our own young players to eat up our cap space, how the hell we building a team if we won’t have a first or second round pick again til the 2018 draft?
Agree with all of that, though i think an upgrade at ILB will mean that we don’t need pass rushing from the DL.
Agree on CBs/S
OL can be developed over time with quality coaching. You can’ expect those guys with serious injuries to come back full speed, especially when blocking requires power, movement, coordination.
I’m fine with our starting line… But need to start grooming their replacements
I don’t agree at all that we need more tight ends. We only play one. Even when Celek leaves, you’re talking about someone to sit on the bench behind Ertz, like Ertz is doing now. And Trey Burton has TE potential and he’s on the active roster already.
agree — be interesting to see who gets paid and how much people get paid.
You are welcome to your opinion on TE”s… But do you honestly think Chip is only going to carry two TE’s?
GEagle . . .
At the end of the day (which is just abt where I am now) . . .
What you’ve written (very well) is cogent, rational, and sensible. And will very likely be what happens.
Myself, I was just struck — and surprised — by what the draft-day trade data over the last 25 years shows.
And, even if just for 5 minutes, Kelly and his most trusted subordinates will run through this scenario and — if they think Marioto’s MOSES — they’ll contact Tampa Bay.
They’d be stupid not to do that.
Mariota would be seamless here. If there’s one team in the league he’d be considered a franchise QB for, it’s the Eagles. Our biggest crippling holes are in the secondary, which can be addressed in FA. The sacrifice would be huge, but not huge, because of the potential of Foles and Shady as trade pieces. That’s just the reality of it.
Kelly says what he wants ad does what he wants — I agree we haven’t been able to decode his tea leaves so i can’t see it as being “credible” evidence.
I also think this is the ideal year to make such a big move. We have 8 draft picks and some tradeable commodities in Nick Fokes and Shady.
I can think of 5-6 teams in need of a QB this year with only 2-3 options in the draft. I think we could get atleast a 2nd for foles.
As far as shady goes I thinkwe could get a 3rd. I know his has a big contrat, but I believe we would take all of his guarenteed money. That would leae the teamthat tradfor him with alot of flexibility. I could see a team like Indy as a great trade partner.
If we made those trades we’d have 10 picks and 4 on day 2. I think we could find a way to amke it work.
KAJ:
Indy as a destination for McCoy . . . very interesting.
Nice work.
They are agressive by nature. They traded for Richardson, almost traded for Victor Cruz, etc. they need to take some pressure off of Luck. plus they will have $50mil + next offseason.
And Luck and T.Y will take over 30mil of that
That leaves plenty for shady.
O:
The Colts, apparently, forced Peyton Manning to play out every contract before re-negotiating.
That gives the Colts at least 2 more seasons with Luck (if the Colts elect to use that 5th season).
They’ll never trade a pick for an RB again after the Trent Richardson fiasco.
they will do whatever the owner wants.
mksp:
fool me once . . .
I think you’re right about Indy. Just draft one yourself, they’re saying.
Cheaper and no one will notice if we screw up nearly as much.
“And nothing he says publicly is worth a damn. (Which is as it should be.)” — truer words were never spoken. Too many people say “well, Chip said this and Chip said that…” — Chip is no dummy. He’s saying what he needs to be said.
…….
That was my point the other day. Yes, we like our young D-Line and I hope they continue to play great. But I wouldn’t be surprised if Chip brought in competition. That doesn’t mean our D-line is going to be replaced. Just means Chip is doing his diligence…
I looked forward to seeing a great coach and a great GM work together to bring a championship to Philly. Chip decided he didn’t need that guy.
It reminds me of how, before this past off-season, I looked forward to seeing two great wide receivers play together and cause match-up problems for opposing defenses. But Chip decided he didn’t need one of those guys.
In the end Chip was proven wrong about the team’s ability to move forward without Jackson. I firmly believe the Eagles would be in the playoffs right now if Kelly had not made that fatal mistake. And if you can’t admit a weapon like Jackson over a stiff like Cooper would have made the difference in such a near-miss season, then just keep your delusions to yourself.
I guess time will tell if he is just as wrong about his ability to move forward without Roseman.
Back to back 10-6 seasons can buy you a lot of delusions in the owner’s box at the Linc.
Lucky that Romo didn’t play week 17 last year. Would be entirely difference conversation if we miss playoffs twice.
If nick foles doesnt get hurt maybe Chip has back to back division titles
unclear to me if we would have reached 12 games this year even with nicky stixxs. but possible. Even if we win the title dubious as to whether we have the talent to beat playoff teams.
Would have beaten the Arizona team that was out there today.
id hope so
Maybe… for a little while anyway. Remember that Lurie considers this franchise a gold standard and missing the playoffs is not going to keep Kelly employed for very long.
And let’s face reality: it certainly wasn’t the turnaround that Reid accomplished in 2 years. And after Reid won 11 in his second year, he won 11 again in his third, then 12, then 12 again, and then 13. Reid won more than 10 games in 5 of his first six seasons (and was generally given a pass for the first season when he did not.)
Andy Reid earned his second chances. So far, Chip Kelly has not. The super genius revolutionary hype is only going to go so far so he better start performing better, immediately.
QB vs. no QB.
Exactly.
Andy had a good start to his tenure. He got his franchise QB (which chip does not have) and he had good talent on the defensive side of the ball, especially in the secondary (which chip does not have).
Theres no point in comparing his tenure to Reid’s until his tenure is over, which won’t be anytime soon. Can’t look past the fact he took over a 4-12 team and had two straight 10 win seasons with limited talent. Patience my friend.
“Took a 4-12 team” A 4-12 team that hadn’t had a losing season since the Reno Mahe days. A 4-12 team with LeSean McCoy, a very good offensive line, two good receivers… etc etc… We all know that Reid lost the team. We all know that Chip walked into a situation with a talented roster.
I guess we need to pretend that the Eagles were the Browns cause Chip needs more hype. There isn’t enough.
Man, how do you have any more axe left to grind?
But don’t you need to give Chip credit for using those players properly, in a way that Reid couldn’t? I mean, you yourself were saying as much six months ago…
Completely agree regarding Roseman. However, I believe that with Sanchez at QB, we weren’t going to the playoffs regardless of desean.
Djax put up 110 and a TD with Colt Mccoy on SEA, 110 and a TD with RGIII on Dallas (screen play). He doesn’t need the deep ball to be effective.
Jackson would not have solved our turnover issue, which was what doomed us down the stretch.
Another crazy year in the NFL. Let’s look at playoff teams, how many are defensive vs offense oriented. Pretty even. Bye week teams seem offense oriented 3-1
Defensive:
Cardinals
Panthers
Ravens
Seattle
Bengals
Lions
Offensive:
NE
Denver
Pitt
Colts
Green Bay
Dallas
Anyone watchng the UFC prelims on fox sports 1??? The kid who is fighting now, Paul Felder grew up in South Philly… Tôugh scrappy up and comer, representing well in the Octagon
You think Lurie asked chip to extend his deal in return for getting total control. Seems like something i’d ask considering he’s halfway through his contract.
If Lurie asked Chip to extend his deal, Chip would be looking at a pretty ironclad sexual harassment case…
gotta do positions to get positions?
Sounds like Marynowitz is the leader in the clubhouse for the GM lite roles, but other guys with some connections to Eagles –
Jeff Ireland – Marynowitz worked with him in Miami. If Marynowitz gets hired, I could see Ireland coming in as a consultant/player personell executive.
Michael Lombardi – He’s been with the Eagles before so Lurie obviously knows him and Kelly respects Bellichick a lot and he’s a Bellichick guy.
Scott Pioli – Again, the Bellichick connection. Sounds like Dimitroff still might lose his job with Atlanta and who knows how that staff is constructed if he he gets canned.
Hell no to Ireland. You see the mess he created in Miami? I doubt it is going to be one of them. Chip is looking for someone that is ok with beinga number 2. Probably a young guy that is shooting for a real GM spot in the future that would use this as a position to get his name out there.
Jeff Ireland is one of the most ridiculed personnel executives of this era. If he we ever considered for an executive position for this team, let alone hired, it would be shameful.
I’m currently watching Steelers / Ravens on mute and enjoying the stylings of the Mariachi band our neighbors apparently hired for a party. It is an oddly fitting sountrack.
Mariachi band music are certainly on endless loop in one of the seven levels of Hell. Maybe Purgatory.
I would venture to guess that K-Pop is featured on one of the levels… after listening to a few of hours of that the other day from a different neighbor. Apparently I live on a very festive street.
This is a great article — except the “Parcells won 2 Super Bowls while working with a great GM”. Parcells won 2 super bowls working with a great defensive coordinator. Maybe you can give credit to the GM for hiring the DC. I don’t know how long the relationship with Parcells and George Young lasted — what I do know, Parcells never won the show without that DC.
If Harbaugh and the Ravens can pull this out, he will move to 10-4 in the playoffs including 8 wins on the road. Pretty damn impressive especially given the talent and teams he has had to work with including who they have had at QB.
great defense keeps games in hand
This Ravens’ team isn’t exactly a great defense and losing Bell was too much for the Steelers to overcome.
“good”?
Awesome OL play by the Ravens on that last drive. What Osemele just did on that touchdown pass was my favorite thing about playing football
must be nice to be a ravens fan
?? Cuz they’re winning or….
yup. sb. fire everyone. live through ray rice scandal. 2nd rd playoffs with flacco
Look like a much better team. Controlling the line of scrimmage,age on both sides of the trenches.
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CB’s stepping up and playing ANTONIO and the steelers WR’s tôugh and Tight!
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Big difference between the Mayhem T-sizzle and Elvis Dumerville are causing amd the little impact Jarvis Jones and Worlids,are able to have on the game
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No team is !MORE DESPERATE for corners then the steelers. Worst corners in the NFL.. They make Brad and Cary look good
After the way everything unfolded this week, anyone else starting to think that Roseman blew a gasket and went all “Rogue” firing Gamble and not telling LURIE until after he impulsively fired gamble?
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Oh btw, I got some clarity on Gamble being escorted out, it’s policy now, that when you get fired you are escorted outside (standard proceedure supposedly)
That would be hilarious!!! It does seem like something odd happened in Eagle land this week.
No way that lUrie knew Howie would fire Gamble and not talk to chip about it and work everything out before the firing became official. The fact that lUrie had to have all these executive meetings AFTER gamble was fired, leads me to rationally belive that Howie didn’t even tell LUrie about it Til after he had already fired him..
…
Telling you, Howie went rogue and fired Gamble on his own, and it shows how much LUrie values Howie that he fixed this mess while retaining Howie and allowing him to save face…Howie put himself in a Lose/Lose situation. No point in winning a power struggle if you are only going to be remembered for chasing Chip Kelly out of Ohip kelly out of philly, so Howie had to play ball, chip made hispwer grab, and LUrie values Howie enough to allow him to get a raise and be elevated for losing his personel power which Howie really didn’t want to lose when this mess all started.I assume that firing Gamble breached the agreement chip signed to come to philly, with his own Personel guy in place next to Hoiwie, and being responsible for chasing chip out of philly would ruin everything he accomplished and Bult up in his career, so Howie is out of the Personel business whch is not what he wanted, but LUrie values him enough to bail him out and turn this into a legit promotion..,,when in reality. Howie LOST EVERYTHING he started this fight over… Shows how much LUrie values Howie that lUrie turned this into a legitimate promotion, allowing Howies to save face, retire from the scouting business and be compensated for accepting this career change to fix the mess Howie created by impulsively firing gamble. THIS ISNT AT ALL WHAT HOWIE WANTED, but it is a legitimate promotion, just in a different area than what he really wanted
I doubt it. Lurie still wanted to keep Roseman obviously and if he made a major decision like that without giving Lurie a heads-up first then I doubt he would have kept his job and received a raise/extension after losing a power struggle with Kelly.
Does Howie really have to give LURIE a heads up Tho? He was the General Manager and every GM gets to hire and fire who they want.. We get into grey area when the person he fired was supposed to be guaranteed to chip when he took the job.
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After gamble was fired, all these executive meetings took place, and the Eagles are LURIE are painting a picture that nothing bad happened, amd everyone agreed on this… But that’s BULLSHIT, because if what LURIE says was true, and the front office has been United this entire time, all the Executive meetings would have had to take place BEFORE gamble was officially FIRED…l the Fact that the EXecutive meeting had to happen after the gamble firing leads me to wonder if Howie didn’t give LURIE the heads up that he was going to fire gamble. LURIE isn’t dumb, if he knew Howie was going to fire Gamble he would have made sure to cover all his bases with chip and everyone, so there would be nothing to talk about AFTER the firing….
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There is NO way that LUrie knew Howie would Fire Gamble, but not talk to chip about it until after gamble was fired, I can’t possibly believe that. lUrie would have to be a fool, and I don’t believe that to be the case…
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Lol @ Howie going Rogue and firing Gamble without telling Lurie.. What a little Gangster. The gangster Jews from “once upon a time in America” would even be proud lol
ok, so I’m late to the “what just happened” discussion … lol. Was that VP fired because of A) the draft B) the inability to update the safety position more C) keeping players from last year that clearly were not capable of helping the defense or D) all of the above. There was a reason why he was fired — just curious why. Maybe it was something brewing from last year?
The rumor is that Kelly and the coaching staff were ignoring the input from Roseman and the scouting staff and Gamble instead of acting as part of Roseman’s team(which he was) sided with Kelly.
but we’ve been terrible at getting players over the past year and a half
I think the 2013 draft was solid. The 2014 draft doesn’t look good at this point, but it’s too early to judge. Regardless my post is about what the rumor was. That’s one and everything else out there is also rumors. It’s a guessing game.
i think you’re right. but seems like whoever has been winning the decision battle has been doing a bad job.
Bad job how? Yes our starting CBs are garbage. Look at rounds 1-3 in 2013 draft, thats where you need to hit and we did. Jenkins and Sproles were good pickups. The ST players we got turned our ST to best in league. For a backup Sanchez did better then alot. We acquired one of the better young kickers in the league. Every expert will tell you that you cant judge a draft in one year. Smith doesnt look good, but Mathews does. You can tell Huff does have talent if you see him with the ball in his hands. Beu Allen is a player for someone taken in 7th. Barwin was a key FA pickup. Yes you can harp on the secondary. That should have been upgraded, but we can.both agree its better then 2012s. Yes we can question the Smith pick. Am i ready to say he is a bust yet? No. If Smith ends up being decent and so does either Huff or Watkins which i think Huff will i bet you will say they have made good decisions if you think about it.
we have 34 Lbs that can’t cover, that reverberates throughout the whole secondary. Missing on 3/4 of the secondary given piayers available in the last two years is crazy, add djax, MSII, Cooper, etc.
Barwin can cover, Kendricks is able to also. You dont expect the predator role to be good in coverage. Besides Seattle name me another 3-4 D that has more then 2LBs that are good in coverage. I touched on the secondary and said you were right on that although it is improvment over 2012 which is not enough. Getting Jenkins over Ward or Byrd ended up being the right call in which the majority of us thought was a bad move at first. It is possible if we kept Jackson, Maclin may not be retainable. Ill take Maclin over Djax. As far as Cooper i bet you were willing to sign him after last year. Hindsight is 20/20. Again i think it is still premature to say what Smith will be, although i will say im not that high on him. If you look at only the bad then stuff is going to look bad. You have to look at the good also and then balance it out. Name one team that doesnt make some kind of mistake with a pick or FA every year. You can look at almost every team across the league and pick out deficiencies that werent 100% addressed from the previous year. You are never going to be perfect. We thought the 2011 offaeason was perfect, addressed every need, worked out great huh? I know we went from 4-12 to 10-6 last year and in playoffs to 10-6 this year without playoffs sadly. Most teams dont do that.
To add…we held QBs to one of the lowest completion percentages in the league. Our downfall was the big play due to CB and safety. Our front 7 assisted them by getting ALOT of pressure…second in league in sacks i beleive. Barwin is a very good coverage LB. Them covering had NOTHING to do with the back 4.
all levels are connected. Better coverage backers we don’t need safeties to be super focused on TE/WR matchups and can be more focused on our DBs getting beat all of the time, also allows for better underneath coverages, more disguise etc.
Sacks came in bunches against mediocre teams. Remember any game changing sacks? I don’t. Neither Cole nor BG had a sack in the last 5 games and those are our best options for OLB next season?
I could discuss every point with you but Qb roasted us all year STL, WAS, DAL, SEA, TEN, NYG, GB, (1st NYG game, 1st Dallas game, CAR). It’s bad and it was bad last year.
I don’t think that between 2013-2014 we’re any closer to having the latent to beat elite teams..
You are again discounting information presented to you. You say our LBs are garbage in coverage, when Barwin is good in coverage and Kendricks isnt bad either. 3-4 lbs rush passer alot so it is by design that the safety covers TE, hence one of the reasons we got Jenkins because he can play man. If you are second in league in sacks its because yes you are getting them in bunches but also a somewhat consistent basis. We got to Wilson and Romo in the first game alot. Please name a game in which a TE really hurt us besides the 2nd Dallas game and i beleive Walker in Tennessee game. I bet you cant. The predator in any 3-4 scheme is not going to be good in coverage. Yet again i will state this fact, the Eagles held opposing QBs to one of the league wide lower completion percentages yet one of the worst in allowed big plays. That is due to CB and safety. To discount what you have stated even more, the majority of the big plays happened when there was a safety up top, the safety just had no instincts and our CBs got beat so badly. The fact that Barwin is widely known as a good coverage LB just slams what you are saying. Its not the LB coverage you should be upset with, its some of Billy D’s play calling and garbage play from one safety and absolute garbage play by Fletcher and some poor play from Williams. The stats and numbers tape and scheme disprove what you are saying.
BD has said that he wants mirror LBs, part of the reason for getting smith. Kendricks is good in coverage but he’s also the best blitzer so i think we need another guy bc he can’t be all places at all times, there’s no mirror. even meco is a bit slow going forward and backward.
Another game where we got beat by a TE? the Titans game, greg olsen also went for 120yds.
When the safety is up top he’s trained to go first to mismatch and then help the DBs, BD said as much when discussing the DAL game. I think poor dropping LBs is why it was pick your poison with Dallas and why we spend so much time in nickel / dime when we REALLY want to stay in base.
On the secondary the other issue is that there were SO many guys over the last two years, especially last year. Signing nate allen was a terrible job by the FO, we win probably 2 more games with better safety play.
On WRs paying Coop was bad, especially given the FAs last year, eric decker makes $2m a year more and is twice the WR.
FA this year is slim to say the least and rookie DBs are…, especially in our scheme which doesn’t provide a bunch of safety help.
So Jason Witten and Greg Olsen beat you in coverage. Witten did it one out of 2 times. Besides that TEs didnt do much damage against us the rest of the year. Sounds like our LBs did a good job in coverage. I think its clear that the problem isnt LB coverage but CB and safety help up top. I could agree with you if maybe the CBs were getting beat and the safety was covering the TE, but it seemed on almost every big play there was a safety up top, he just had no instincts or just got burnt along with the CB. The acknowledgment of Barwin being good in coverage is still not there. I have stated that the FO messed up on not getting more secondary help. I agree with you on that. Cooper was a mistake, but hindsight is 20/20. He had a good year last year from a receiving standpoint, add his blocking skills and as you said 2 mill less then Decker and he did seem right for a contract extension. Again it was the wrong choice but at the same time it seemed the right one. There were mistakes, there are going to be mistakes with every organization, but the FO has also made alot of good choices with players, and thats something people forget real quick.
barwin is obviously good in coverage and i think we’re both right.
lol, i was going to read your reply and say the same thing.
Pittsburgh’s DBs are garbage. Chicago’s DBs are garbage, etc. The Arizona DBs let the Panthers score on them!! Oh the shame.
I agree the 2013 draft was solid. We hit from round 1-3 which is very important. If Earl Wolfe ends up being a solid player then i would consider it a good draft. Johnson i beleive can be a pro-bowler in future. Ertz when he plays is a serious receiving/matchup nightmare and Logan is already one of the better NTs in the league already. If Wolfe can turn into.a solid starter at one point or a very.good backup then you have to consider 2013 a good draft. 2014 i still beleive can still end up being solid. Mathews was a hit. I really think Huff has talent and can turn into a good player for us. Beu Allen was a good 7th round pick. He has flashed potential. If Smith can can develope into a decent player then 2014 can be considered a solid draft. Thats a big IF with smith. I think Watkins showed some potential in season finale for a 4th round pick getting on the feild for the first time. I think it will take at least not next year but the following to get a true feel for this past years draft.
Not sold on Huff. I like him, but not sure he ever develops into more than a 3rd and maybe not even 4th receiver. Beau Allen was a GREAT 7th rounder. 7th rounders who earn significant playing time and show signs of developing into solid players are extremely rare.
Possibly, im more high on him then alot of people. I do think he will be a weapon on KR however.
I would call Jenkins an upgrade at safety. We had hope that Wolfe could take the other spot, but apparently that lingering knee injury he had was pretty serious.
The question wasn’t about 1 position.
Thank you captain obvious. I was stating my opinion on just something he mentioned. I didnt attempt to answer his question.
Extremely late to this conversation, but thought I’d toss my hat in the ring.
a – Roseman the GM has been up and down in his tenure. There has been one brilliant draft and several more questionable moves.
b – Whether or not Roseman and Kelly are friends doesn’t matter at all. What matters is whether they could work together and unfortunately, it seems Kelly decided that they could not.
c – I love Kelly, the coach. Kelly, the talent evaluator, I’m not sold on. Exhibit a and b are wanting to draft Taylor Hart in the fourth and selecting Josh Huff in the third.
d – Whoever the Eagles bring in had best be both respected by Kelly and damn good at his job, or this could go south in a hurry.
For D, Kelly is choosing that person himself. As of Huff he does have talent and if you watch it you can see that when he has the ball in his hands. Remember he had a hammy issue which kept him out of practice and first few games of season, which as a rookie may or may not have hurt his progress. I have no problem with him in 3rd.
Not denying that Huff has some talent. I just believe and thus far it has proven to have been an extremely deep talented WR draft. Based on the depth of the draft, I believe Huff should have gone in the fourth. Would have been happy to get him, because as you noted, he has talent. He’s just still a bit raw as a receiver. I’m also not convinced he’ll ever be a dominant player on the outside. His best skill is his RAC. I haven’t seen an extra gear to pull away from people. He lacks the fluid rout running of an exceptional possession receiver. His hands are ok, not great, which we’ve seen lots of evidence of this season.
There is alot he needs to improve on along with all rookies. His big plays wont come from pure speed, he is fast however. His big plays will come when a CB goes to tackle him one on one and he breaks that tackle. He is a very hard running and violent WR. Reminds me a bit of how Steve Smith ran when he was younger. There were a ton of WR taken but the really good ones in rounds one and two. You have to remember we picked late in 3rd, so yes he may have lasted untill 4, but he could have been taken very early in 4. There is not much of a difference between a player taken late in the 3rd and a player taken early in the 4th.
good wrs came after but i think huff can be special for YAC.
Agree 100%. One of the reasons i think he will be a real weapon on KR.
Why would the HC not want a couple of players from a winning system, who he already knows? Jimmy Johnson did it quite nicely. Anyway, as Chip moves farther from his university career there won’t be any players he recruited still around, so the situation disappears.
Legitimate point, but my concern is that he has overvalued his former players. Both guys are players I’m happy to have. From what I’ve seen, I think Huff could be a very good slot receiver, but Kelly wants a big guy to create mismatches at that position. Hart couldn’t find playing time on a deep talented DL. The concern is wanting to take Hart in the 4th and taking Huff in the 3rd. Clearly Kelly was guilty of overvaluing Hart and we’ve seen a few receivers taken after Huff who were more productive this past season. I’ll be glad when this ‘problem’ goes away.
Note on the playoffs. Twice in recent years, we’ve seen a team win their division with a much less than impressive record. Both times, that team has taken advantage of home field to win a playoff game.
I don’t mind that much that division winners get an automatic berth, but I think rewarding them with a home game is going to far. They should get in, but they should get rid of the automatic home game. It’s ludicrous that a 7-9 or even 8-8 team gets a home game just because they won an awful division.
I disagree its not that often you get these teams with losing records in so dotnchange everything, in every major sport winning your division gets you home field
Football’s going to four team divisions has made the lousy division much more likely. I’m aware that it’s always been this way, but that isn’t enough to say a change isn’t necessary. The same argument was used over and over to prevent a college playoff (i.e. we’ve always had the bowl system and it works!! :P)
I just feel that if you are able to beat the teams in your division you should be rewarded, and guess what you can say oh if the Panthers had to travel they wouldn’t have won but that just isn’t the case, they dominated
Not saying that Seattle or Carolina wouldn’t have won even if they played on the road. Just questioning the amount of reward for winning a crappy division.
With my rules, both teams make the playoffs, but have to go on the road to play a team that won more games during the regular season. Don’t think it’s that extreme a change.
P.S. We’re not going to change each others mind, and I think we both have legit points.
I was under the impression that the league may go to a system whereby the top x number of teams with the best record in the NFC and the AFC would go on into the playoffs. Irrespective of division except to settle ties.
Now that’s going to far imho.
This whole column is about GM, coaches, scouts and the mysteries of the inner workings of a professional sports team’s Front Office. A few minutes later the same old comments about, ” I don’t like Huff!”. etc. You can’t win, Tommy.
Its called an open discusion for a reason. Do you have something you would like to add regarding what has happened with the FO in the past few days, because so far your comments tonight have had nothing to do with it either. As far as the Huff comments they stemmed from us talking about the people that picked him in last years draft which has everything to do with what is happening in the FO.
[…] Nuts and Bolts – Iggles BlitzKelly is going to be the decision-maker. It is up to his new PPD to give him all the information so he can make decisions and figure out what he wants to do. But wait…couldn’t Howie Roseman have done this? Yes, and it is what happened to a certain extent. The difference is that Roseman also had a strong say in what happened. The new PPD will have his own opinions, but he won’t be a decision-maker. He will clearly be “Kelly’s guy”. Heckert and Andy Reid worked well together with this set-up for several years. Eventually Heckert wanted more power and left the team so he could go be the GM in Cleveland and run his own show. […]