More on Mathis
Posted: June 13th, 2015 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 217 Comments »In 2003 the Eagles had John Welbourn at LG and Jermane Mayberry at RG. That was a very good duo. Welbourn was a near-Pro Bowl type and Mayberry had been to one Pro Bowl. Both got hurt that year and the duo of Artis Hicks and Bobbie Williams ended up playing for them for part of the season. Hicks played well enough that the Eagles gave him an extension and intended to have him be a key backup. Williams got a big deal from the Bengals in free agency.
Just before the 2004 draft, Welbourn went on WIP and ripped the Eagles organization for not giving him a new deal. He had signed a contract extension 2 years before, but had outplayed that deal in his mind. He was being underpaid at that point, but had been overpaid at the beginning of the extension. The Eagles philosophy back then was to give out contract extensions quickly to avoid having to give huge deals to players once they were free agents and the market could set their value. Some players saw both sides of this. Welbourn didn’t. He wanted his money.
Andy Reid responded by trading Welbourn to the Chiefs. He got a 5th round pick in 2004 and a 4th rounder the next year.
The Eagles projected OGs were Hicks, with 4-career starts, and Mayberry, 31 and coming off a major elbow injury. All the talent and depth that had been there was gone. The team drafted OT Shawn Andrews in the 1st round, OT Trey Darilek in the 4th, OG Adrien Clarke in the 7th and OC Dominic Furio in the 7th. Andrews was not a knee-jerk reaction. Reid loved him and saw him as the replacement for Jon Runyan, whose contract expired after the 2005 season.
Andrews was inserted at RG in his second practice. He was too good to keep off the field. Mayberry slid over to LG. The Eagles thought they would be fine. Then Andrews broke his leg in the season opener. Mayberry battled injuries all year. Hick missed time. Things were so bad at one point that the Eagles played a key game with Steve Sciullo and Alonzo Ephraim as the starting OGs. The Eagles dominated in that game, scoring 47 points and piling up 542 yards of offense.
The Eagles finished the 2004 season by playing in the Super Bowl. Oddly, I can’t seem to recall the outcome of the game.
The situations are similar, but also very different. The Eagles got rid of a talented LG in both instances. Welbourn had to go because he made the situation toxic when he went on WIP and started ripping the team. That bridge wasn’t just burned, it was fire bombed.
Mathis never did anything close to that. He let it be known he wanted more money, but never ripped the Eagles publicly. For the most part, I thought he handled the situation pretty well.
Les Bowen wrote a good piece on the subject and also took up for Mathis.
We have come a long way in a year and a couple months, from releasing DeSean Jackson, who failed to show for his 2013 season exit interview, didn’t want to learn all the wideout positions, clashed with his position coach and had several priorities more important to him than team success, to releasing Evan Mathis, who sat out optional OTAs because he wanted a bit more money.
I think if you’d asked Mathis six months ago if he considered himself a Kelly disciple, he would have said yes. Keeps himself in top shape, owns a gym in Arizona, eats right, doesn’t do dumb stuff off the field. Made a point of not saying anything about his contract after he reported last year, to not detract from the team focus. Never grumbled about the pace of practice, or anything else.
As for Chip Kelly…
Chip seems to be building a roster of guys who will commit to what he wants exactly and unquestioningly. But that won’t last forever. At some point, at least a few of these players will want more money, or will otherwise get tired of being treated like 15-year-olds attending football camp for the first time. When that day comes, the Chipper had better be winning, and winning real, real, real big. Because players have choices in the NFL — unlike once they sign the letter of intent in college — and there are plenty of contending teams who offer an easier, more flexible atmosphere than Chipworld.
We’re going to find out this season whether culture really trumps scheme/talent, and we’re also going to find out a lot about maintaining culture, once it’s established.
There is some definite truth to this. Some players are only going to buy in to this if they think the reward is worth it. That means winning.
Other players will buy in because they think like Chip. I mean that in the sense of being competitive enough and desperate enough to be willing to try and do anything for an advantage. Bill Romanowski is probably the most extreme example there is. He used to send off his poop to be analyzed by a lab to tell him how to adjust his diet and vitamin intake so he could get his body to peak performance.
And Kelly can sell the idea of results. He has had multiple guys have career years under him. Nick Foles put up freaky good numbers. RBs and WRs have racked up big stats. Connor Barwin just got voted number 58 on the NFL Network’s Top 100 players list. Fletcher Cox has developed into an elite player. Vinny Curry has become a terrific pass rusher. Brandon Graham played well enough to become a starting OLB and get a big extension.
The big question now is whether Kelly’s methods can help turn some combination of Allen Barbre, Matt Tobin, Andrew Gardner and Dennis Kelly into a good pair of starting OGs for 2015. If that happens, Kelly will look all that much wiser and the team is going to be that much better.
The 2004 team got by with mediocre guard play and still went 13-3, finishing with a trip to the Super Bowl. Kelly isn’t interested in mediocre. He has high expectations for the guys on the roster. Kelly has seen these players look good for short stretches. The challenge is to get them to play well consistently, something Mathis did from 2011 to 2014.
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Not worried about our starting Lineup… I like gardner to surprise and win the RG spot, and Tobin and Barbre battle it out for LG..
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Starting offensive line doesn’t concern me… But our key backups are now our starters, depth is a major concern…
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I wonder how long chip has known that he would end up cutting Mathis? Frustrating to not have risked our 7th round pick taking a flier on Lael Collins,,
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I’m really not concernd about Garnder, Tobin or Barbre…. I am however concerned that Kelly and Graf can step up And be solid backups if called upon,,.. And I desperately need a UDFA to take Molks roster spot
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Think everyone would feel better had we kept Mathis, but at least we finally got some closure,.. Hipefully once mandatory mini camp passes, we can leave The Mathis talk in the past…his crap has dominated enough of the offseason
I’d be surprised if it’s not Barbre on the left side and Tobin on the right.
Not me…. From everything I saw, Tobin looked so much better at LG then he did when he had to move to RG when Mathis came back… I thought Gardner played RG much much better then Tobin did last year
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Of course we don’t know how much each player will grow from last year to this september. maybe one has improved significantly more then the other since we last saw them…maybe tobin can do better at RG then he did last year with a little more work.
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Really what I’m trying to say is I don’t believe it’s only the 2 horse race(Tobin/Barbre) that people make it out to be. I think Gardner is a serious contender who is very much still in the equation..
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Another thing is it’s seems like we all assume Barbre will definitely start at LG. he is also the favorite in my eyes, but until the pads come on and we don’t really see what our OLineman have to offer, I can’t just assume he will be better this year then thegrowth young tobin and Gardner will show
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I’m pretty high on Tobin, problem is I REALLY like how he has looked at LG. Right now Babre is penciled in at LG, but I’m not ready to assume he will start.. Tobin is younger, should Improve more then Barbre since last season. I can see Tobin upset Barbre and take the LG spot, in which case Barbre Vs. Gardner for RG. Even tho chip claims Barnre is much better on the Left side
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I am also high on Tobin, Gardner and Barbre… in some capacity I think they can be quality contributors to a top Offense… In what capacity, is what remains to be seen… Hopefully I’m under rating DENNIS and Graf…. But I really hope a UDFA steps up and takes Molk’s job….. if our OL injury luck is closer to 2013 then 2014, we should be fine… I’m hopeful that we are pleasantly surprised with the growth over the course of this next season with the play of our starting Guards.. It would be BIG TI!ME if the guards step up, and improve enough to where we plan on starting them again next year, allowing us to groom the OL we draft on the bench for a year
“Andy Reid responded by trading Welbourn to the Chiefs. He got a 5th round pick in 2004 and a 4th rounder the next year.”
Trading away a player who everybody knows you want to get rid of rather than cutting him; what a novel idea.
Yeah what a fool that chip kelly is… Obvipusly he should have put a gun to the head of the Dolphins GM and demanded value in return, or better yet, stick a horses head in the Dolphins GMs bed…
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Funny how people rip Chip for not getting value for a desean, when Howie was the one negotiating contracts and talking trades with other teams. Howie was,the GM that got nothing for Desean, not chip…
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Chip gave Mathis agent permission to seek a trade for the past two years, no one offered anything,… What more do you want? We tried to trade him for two years before we cut him
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Obviously Id prefer Mathis still being an eagle, but I’m not going to mourn the loss of a 34yr old, nor do I care that we didn’t get the petty 7th round pick in return for him….No ONE is giving you a 4th and a 5th for 34year old Mathis in 2015
Sorry, but no sale. We need to get a return on these guys.
Lol ok…
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Get real… Players aren’t traded in the NBA… Contracts are traded.. This isn’t thhe NBA… How do you get value if an agent has been looking for a trade partner for two years and no one makes an offer? I guess you want to go with the gun to the head approach? Lol this isn’t madden where you can get other teams to accept whatever trade you want…
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Howie had a reputation for doing a good job with NFL trades, and he could GE NOTHING for Desean…
That is a failure on Howie’s part with DeSean or it was a failure of the team to keep their cards close enough to the vest on wanting to get DeSeaon off of the roster. In either case, Logan Mankins is a worse player than Mathis and was making a higher salary. New England got him traded for a 4th and a player. Brandon Marshall isn’t as good as of reciever as DeSean Jackson and is significantly older while coming off an injury. He was also traded for some compensation.
Deals can be made by those with the requisite skills to pull off those deals. Chip needs to up his game in that area.
Ok
There was no failure! It was quite simple – no team was stupid enough to think Jackson was worth the money he was being paid. Fans have an amazing ability to separate cap hit from player value. NFL teams are a little better informed, and there aren’t too many rubes running franchises.
Brandon Marshall isn’t as good a receiver as DeSean Jackson? Ok come on now. DeSean Jackson? the player who gets shut out of every major game we have even though he’s on one of the most loaded and prolific offenses in the league? Better than Brandon Marshall who everyone knows is gonna get the ball and still puts up numbers?
Bad mouthing DJax probably did not help his trade value either…Chip’s call-out of Mathis probably iced whatever chance that was left to trade him
NE cut the TE that they received yesterday; so Mankins was essentially traded for a 4th. TE resigned w/ original team – TB?
You don’t want a “trade”…’you want to STEAL VALUE and get over on a team…. Let’s stomp our feet and cry because we weren’t abe to fleece anyone for a 34yr old, coming off an injury filled season, who is making 11mil and ISNT happy with it…. What in the world compensation to you expect to get for that?
How about and extra 7th that you expressed a desire to use on Collins rather than letting Dallas get him? Would an extra pick have come in handy there?
Haha…agreed … Plus it’s $12mil over the next two years. $5.5mil this year and $6.5mil next.
Or what? Keep them and hurt the team? I really don’t get this mindset, common as it seems to be. Do you really think the Eagles turned down an offer? Team decided they are better off without him.
This whole “impatient Chip” is a media creation.
Exactly! People seem to think that Chip got a call from the Dolphins offering a 3rd round pick and he said Ya know what, no thanks! Keep your 3rd rounder we’ll just release him instead.
I’d go with horse’s head over gun to the head. Personal preference.
http://38.media.tumblr.com/900f3589834df157429dfcd1ded4df88/tumblr_mstcjs5QEw1s9wgpdo4_500.gif
Sad things is: 31 teams were able to refuse the offer.
So your saying this is a more accurate depiction? http://static.tumblr.com/kt3hzie/FeSm8h8ml/fire_sale.gif
Here’s an explanation loaded with speculation, but not completely preposterous: Kelly tells HR, “Let’s move no.10,” and HR, BMOC, the guy who recruited Kelly, AND the guy who overpaid Desean drags his feet, and this goes on for months until Kelly says screw this, :Desean, hit the road.” 2 years down the road, and Kelly may have been fine with Mathis doing a reprise of last season, but he went to Twitter and deployed his agent, and Kelly has nobody to blame if the locker room is not to his liking. I actually think Kelly expected Mathis to be here, but the extra urgency that Mathis was displaying may have weighed on Kelly. In any case, Mathis would have been difficult to shop because of what he was already getting. The prospect of paying for the opportunity to overpay him was not grabbing anybody, but now that tariff has been lifted.
I wonder if Chip would have cut Todd Herremans if he had known he was going to be cutting Evan Mathis. I am concerned. We have no depth on the O-line and injuries are inevitable. Pick a starter…any starter…who replaces him if he gets injured? And I want to believe in Bradford, but I’d like to try to keep the gimp upright and protect him a little.
Herremans is 100% shot and can’t play anymore. He was sliding into a steep decline over the past few years. I think the Eagles did the right thing with him.
The Colts disagreed, we’ll have to see what happens.
But I think the dumber issue was not drafting a OL this year knowing you already lost Herremans and might have to lose Mathis.
Dumber? Who would you take off the roster for an OL, and who would you replace him with? Every action has a reaction. Rowe and Agholor are the only two who were taken with immediate impact guys still available. Everything else would be projections and developmental, unlikely to beat out guys already in development. The draft wasn’t going to be used for 2015, and there is plenty of time before 2016. Maybe the money saved on Mathis will buy an OL in FA.
The Colts disagreed with Corey Simon too. The Jags disagreed with Tra Thomas and Hugh Douglas. We’ll see who knew the players better.
Herremans looked good last year. Obviously he got hurt but performance isn’t why he’s gone.
Disagree. Thought he struggled last year and Gardner was an upgrade when he took over at the end of the year.
Nope. Herremans was the best OL until he got hurt.
First few games he was pretty good but wore down over course of season.
This patently false. Herremans was the weak link. Until every other starter was hurt and half the back ups were too. THEN, yes, we needed Herremans out there. But, until then he was clearly the weak link.
He was the weak link in 2013 but not 2014. He was clearly playing well until he played through injury.
Kind of looks like chip has known for a while that he was going to cut Mathis…doubt it Would have changed our decision to cut Herremans
OT, but I found it interesting and I know Tommy is interested in coaches, too. Hopefully a few others here also.
http://mmqb.si.com/2015/06/10/nfl-future-head-coaching-candidates-adam-gase-josh-mcdaniels-teryl-austin/
Now, the author admits that this is far from science. And I tend to agree with some of the names.
I don’t get where Harbaugh is listed (he’s a tough case, but if we’re honest, he says one word he could come back to the NFL next year and owners will open their pocket – basically everyone with a coaching vacancy wanted him this offseason, and rightfully so).
I do think Urban Meyer could be a candidate. Maybe not next year (altough, if they win another National Championship, and that’s possible, who knows?), but maybe in two or three years. He’d been between 51 and 54 years old then – young enough to have a 10+ year run at the SB. He has three National Championships already and there could be another one in the next few years. I think a person like him starts to think about legacy. Having 3, maybe 4 NCAA championships and potentially a Super Bowl – he’d be in the conversation for the GoaT. That has to be interesting to him. And altough he makes a lot of money and has all the power – I think there would be NFL teams who would be willing to give him the same (look at Carroll and the Seahawks, f.e.).
And remember: he changed his Offense and has some of the same principles than Chip. Chips offense worked in the NFL. They are good friends. And I think Meyer would be smart enough to hire a veteran NFL OC like Shurmur.
Other than Meyer, I do think Malzahn or Briles could come into play (other than Sumlin and Shaw, who are mentioned in the article as top candidates). To be honest, if NFL teams believe Sumlin can make the jump, there is little reason to believe Briles or Malzahn couldn’t. Of course, they would need to be willing to come to the NFL, and the author mentions that this willingness played a role in this list. I still think the NFL is attractive, even though College football clearly got more relevant in the last few years.
Thoughts?
if he wins another NCAA championship and then a SB, he is in the conversation for greatest of all time…of what? certainly not of NFL coaches right? I’m not sure what you meant in that line.
Meyer could be in this class of folks, I don’t know, but I thought Lurie did a really good job looking for someone that could build an NFL program. I thought Chip and even the ND coach fit that, after reading their profiles. I don’t think Saban will make a good NFL coach. I think he just has the best players and is an excellent college coach.
As College football becomes more important, I do think a Coach who is in the conversation of the greatest College coach of all time and has a SB ring will be considered one of the best coaches of all time – of course you have to look at College and NFL combined to argue that way. One SB isn’t enough for pure NFL legend status.
Why in the world do you think Brian Kelly is a better program builder than Meyer?? Meyer did it with 4 different programs in College football. Meyer isn’t “just” as coach with a great offensive scheme, like you could accuse Briles or Malzahn of being.
Of course you can say it’s only college. But if you look at the CV, Jim Harbaughs, Carrolls, Chips and Meyers CVs are pretty equal. All they did was building powerhouses.
And if you dig deeper, you find other similiarities. All of those four create a different, but very successful culture. Jon Gordon said on Move the Sticks that OSU national championship was the greatest coaching performance he ever saw.
Imo, it’s no coincidence that while Harbaugh and Carroll hate each other, those four are either friends or they share a deep respect for each other.
And re: Saban. He just didn’t have a QB. Imo, he’s an example that even a great coach won’t last long in the NFL if he can’t find a QB. Chip is the exception of the rule, winning 20 games in two years without having a QB who he thought he can build around (and that’s no opinion, his actions show that).
Kelly will definitely attract a certain type of player, and discourage others. Stating that he better be winning “real, real, real big” (really?) is typical hyperbole. He’ll be getting exactly the type of players he wants. And if that produces a losing string it will produce the typical results. Until then, I’m going to sit back and enjoy the ride.
The serious question you have to ask yourself is: “In a vacuum, would you rather be rooting for the players the Eagles recruit, or those the Cowboys want?”.
Having virtually a zero tolerance program is going to create at least as many problems as it solves.
Don’t know about zero tolerance, but setting up a culture certainly can produce results. All this media hubbub has zero correlation to running a franchise effectively.
The point is to win a SB, not engage in a social or moral experiment. Chip needs to build a team in the manner and in line with the philosophy that he believes has the best chance to win that SB, but I still disagree that culture is guaranteed to overcome talent every time. Both are very important to winning, but if Chip keeps dumping good talent and does not replace them effectively it will eventually catch up to him. I admire and respect that Chip has taken the effort/time to know the type of players he needs (most coaches do not IMO), but the results better follow, it better work out or Chip will and should face the music.
It’s hard enough to replace the players on your roster that are older and in decline, have retired due to injuries, have left in free agency having obtained better offers, or who just aren’t good enough to begin with.
Of course culture doesn’t guarantee to overcome talent every time. But it is a much better way to build a consistent winner. Look no further than the the 2004 Eagles.
Every coach faces the music if results don’t follow. The difference with Kelly is that he’s not afraid to make change that he believes in even if others don’t, or because it’s “just not done that way”. Nothing wrong with the Sinatra way.
I hate this bogus narrative of Culture vs. talent… I think it’s complete Bullsht.
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I don’t think for one second that Chip or any coach will ever devalue talent.
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All I think chip is really trying to say is Talent alone isn’t enough! We don’t care how Talemted you are unless you are also a high character team player with a highly driven work ethic.
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All Chip is really trying to do is Find the TALENT that also comes with the special Chrecter we are looking to fill out team with.. Selfishness, lack of work ethic, lack of passion, these things won’t be overlooked because a guy is Talemted….. chip is simply trying to say we want the Talent who also comes with the Charecter that we are looking for..
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No coach devalues talemt… Some coaches will overlook all your flaws if you are talented enough, chip kelly just happens to not be one of those coaches…
Well put.
Right! Really, who have we lost…Jackson, McCoy, Maclin, Mathis? Jackson was always a question to give full effort, disappeared in the in the biggest games and was a liability in the redzone who was a one trick pony (very very good at that one trick though), who was being paid millions above his actual value. Maclin was a good WR. Again, had a propensity to quit and tackle himself. And certainly wasn’t irreplacable. They’ve been replaced with Matthews, Agholar, Huff, Cooper and Austin. Not like the position has been ignored. McCoy was a top 3 back no doubt. He also danced a lot, had a ton of mileage and looked like half the man he used to be last year and was making $12mil a year. He was replaced by Murray and Matthews for less cost, which is essentially an upgrade. And then we moved on from a 34 yo Guard coming off an injury plagued year and telling his coach publically to suck his nuts. It’s not like Chip just cuts people left and right and goes with sub par players just because they’re choir boys.
I think Kelly will bring in a vet who is cut/released by another team to play RG while Barbre stays at LG. That maintains some of the depth (Tobin, Gardner et al.) although I still think it is unknown whether Barbre or that depth are good enough to start or step in if an injury occurs. We better pray Peters, Kelce and Johnson stay healthy especially Kelce since Molk was clearly bad last season and we have no other C ready as far as I know.
Bottom line is we will not know until this season plays out and we see if the team makes the playoffs or not. I hope Chip knows what he is doing and it works out well.
I think depth will be brought in, not sure that it’s necessasrily someone who will automatically beat out Tobin/Gardner.
Well, I guess litereally no Eagles fans would be against the idea of Tobin/Garner beating out a quality player.
I get why Mathis was released, I do think Chip (generally) knows what he’s doing. I do think it will be a lose-lose for Mathis and the Eagles, but it was a bad situation to begin with.
But I do also think it’s fair to question Chips “competition” mantra at some positions. Technically there is competition for all positions, of course, there are 90 players on the roster. But at Safety and OG, you don’t exactly have to be a world beater to start. You just have to be the best of a weak group.
Now: maybe these groups aren’t weak after all (that’s where Chip and his football brain comes into play), but they sure as hell are unproven. Chips (and his assistants and personell people) eyes better be good, because at Safety and OG, ALL he does is project.
Throw in one of the OLB (Graham) spots, one of the CB (Carroll) spots and WR too (Huff & Ahgolor). Again not saying these are bad players, but unproven like you say and certainly not fighting off any great or even good competition.
There are instances otherwise, but I find most typically that the positions you go into the season worrying about very often tend to be fine and the positions that you’re most confident in beforehand end up having issues.
Well, that is one of the most difficult parts of putting together an NFL roster. One has to make a ton of very tough decisions and sacrifice in one position to shore up another due to the cap. You cannot have all-pros at every position and need to have a mix of young talents to maintain cap space and roster flexibility. Injuries also tell most of the tale in the end.
Well, at WR there is real competition. Most of us don’t like it, but Riley Cooper is still on the roster. I wouldn’t bet on it, but maybe he reaches 2013 level of play. Miles Austin is there, too. 2 UDFA who appear to be solid, regarding their undrafted status, and a great STer from a good team last year. I’m not mentioning Maehl, who made the roster last year, because I hope he is simply a camp body.
Agholor is a 1st round pick and he seems to be in good shape. He has to earn his starting role, but will probably get it. Huff, on the other hand, better improves, otherwise he could be the WR #5 in no time.
CB kind of the same. Carroll, a 2nd round pick, 2 other draft picks, Boykin, Watkins – and we’re talking one spot here (+ nickel).
That’s competition in my book, to be honest. You can’t have all position filled like we have ILB, f.e. Not possible in the NFL.
OLB, I’m with you. But Barwin and Graham are veterans, unlike Thurmond (new position) and Gardner/Tobin. Depth is another thing. MSII and Long must step up. There is nothing else there, since Braman is ST only.
Yea but why don’t we have clear cut Probowl players at every position? If not Chip sucks at competition.
Agreed, I just think Chip would rather have a vet with more experience at one of those OG spots, but likely there will not be anyone of significant talent available unless the Eagles trade for someone…could Kendricks be back on the block if Alonso & Ryans seem to be on track health-wise? That is likely the only way we could get a good OG. I’m not advocating that Chip do that, but it is something I could see happening. Chip does talk about highly valuing the OL so you’d think he would want to reinforce it especially with Bradford being immobile and his RB needing consistent holes to make yardage.
The middle of the line got abused in that Super Bowl -not just Fraley. Big factor in the Eagles’ loss (not as big as Pinkston sitting out the second half with “cramps” after dominating in the first half).
Yeah, the Pats were abusing the middle of the line, but Fraley was especially taking a pounding.
Bad memories are coming back to me.
It is true, McNabb was running for his life all day long and got pressured a lot, one of the reasons he was exhausted by the end
Damn, I forgot Pinkston sat out. Was only 15 back then.
Pinkston as a player himself wasnt all that good, but when he had TO playing opposite of him he was a solid second WR. TO garnered a lot of the attention and rightfully so but I think Pinkston helped him out as well with his deep speed and opening up some underneath routes.
Pinkston was money in the first half, had 82 yards receiving I believe.
If he had been out there in the 2nd half we might have won, since our scoring stalled out until Greg Lewis’ late TD.
I just remember being so hyped when we were up to almost in tears at the end.
More then Pinkston, we lost that Super Bowl because McNabb had the most pathetic attempt at a no huddle offense I think I ever seen. instead of him playing as fast as he could to try and get us back in the game, he was taking his sweet OL time….it was one of the most moronic displays of situational football I ever seen…. I remember watching it and wanting to rip my hair out because of how slow McNabb was running the offense..
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Probably should have ran the ball more in the 3rd quarter
Unfortunately that was to be expected. McNabb never had urgency and Reid was consistently horrible with clock management. Remember the tie with Cincinnati in 2008? No urgency at all due to the fact he didn’t know it would end in a tie. Part of me thinks he knew it could end in a tie its just that he was physically unable to conduct a hurry up offense for whatever reason.
I wonder what Chip could have done with McNabb if he had him and not Reid. There are some attributes that Chip would love about him and others he would absolutely hate. Would have been interesting. Maybe Chip could have turned him into a definite HOFer.
Has he been better in Kansas City with time management? If he is then that’s a big indictment regarding McNabb.
Lol chip with Mcnabb could be interesting, but it also could potentially be a ticking timebomb before he drove chip Crazy for a few reasons:
1) LOL what has McNabb ever shown that would give us any confidence that he can play at Chips crazy tempo? LOL imagoie it McNabb tried to run Chips offense, the way he was “lolly gagging” talkng his sweet OL time during the last 4min ofmthe Super Bowl when we were playing from behind..
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2) Imagine how annoyed chip would be when McNabb wanted to shake the image of “black QBs” refusing to run anymore
Chip: “you refuse to keep it on the zone read and take the free 30yards the defense is daring you to take because you care about what people say about black QBs? Are you an idiot?”
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3) Chip would Like the deep accuracy, but with the way chip schemes WRs open for Yards after catch opportunities, McNabbs inaccuracy, throwing the ball at playërs feet instead of putting it where the can catch it in stride, killing our drives would drive chip crazy.
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if Chip could improve Randall’s study Habbits I assume chip would have loved Cunningham more then McNabb
If chip would have had the talent buddy had we would have had 2 SB’s in that era…
Fraley absolutely got abused as well as both guards. I would have thrown up too if I were McNabb getting hit every play after running around.
Sitting out with cramps is treasonous. Get an IV at half time!!!
Don’t overlook opportunity costs here. If 34 year old Mathis is starting, some younger player is not and isn’t gaining experience for the future; some UDFA isn’t making the 53 w/ similar opportunity. Not to say that either the younger player or UDFA is better than Mathis today, but they well could be next year and almost certainly will be in two years when there’s a good chance Mathis is no longer in the league.
I get your point and there’s validity to it, but if the “opportunity” to develop young talent has a detrimental effect on the “opportunity” to win a Super Bowl, then screw the young guys.
To play devils advocate, if developing the guys leads to the “opportunity” to win multiple SB vs the “opportunity” to win 1 with the older player… Screw the old guys.
The problem is more of a valuation of probability of wining in a limited window now vs a larger window later given the disparity in talent at the time the window opens. Simplifying the problem forces assumptions that aren’t fair in my opinion. You can argue that the younger players will not have as high a probability of winning even after development, and that is a fair argument.
Basically, if letting Mathis go causes us not to win the Super Bowl – CHIP SCREWED UP!!!
If Mathis stays and we don’t win the Super Bowl and we’re left with inexperienced offensive linemen because of it, then CHIP SCREWED UP!!!
Can’t blame Howie anymore.
Howie? I am still blaming Banner! No, screw that, it is all Buddy’s fault for cutting Cris Carter!
One single player will not make or break a team*. And you can argue that it is Howie’s fault for not structuring his contract better initially so that he would be happy throughout the entire length of the contract. Or, you can blame Howie for players on the team chosen during his tenure which makes up the bulk of the roster. Or you can blame Rosenhaus for poorly guiding Mathis and giving him poor advice in terms of Value and Negotiating, which is way easier because who doesn’t hate Rosenhaus?
* in the NFL
But wasn’t that one of the main arguments against Reid & Co. and how they managed the team? They were always playing for the future rather than going for it all in the present. I thought they were smart and believe, if that is why Mathis was released, Chip has a leg to stand on there too, but it is interesting that even though Reid, Banner, Roseman and all the others are gone or marginalized now, Chip seems to share that philosophy.
I remember what happened at the end of 2004. We lost because the patriots cheated and didn’t win a super bowl until this year and guess what was found out after that. THEY CHEATED!
Bastards. I want my championship(by osmosis), asterik be damned!
They also have the best coach and the best QB, maybe both of all time, which kind of helps – but of course everything they do is cheat.
I do get why some people hate the Pats. I just wish the opinions wouldn’t be so extreme. Do they push the envelope often? Of course. But guess what? Carroll does this, too. Saban does it. Jim Harbaugh does it. And I’m pretty sure you could make the case that Chip is doing it, too, sometimes.
Now: do they walk over the line sometimes? Unlike some crazy Patriots fan claim, of course. And if they get caught, they better get punished. Nothing wrong with that. It’s just: it does happen if you push the envelope, and most of the good ones are doing it. I personally don’t hate the Patriots for that.
Best coach ever is true but if he’s so good at coaching that just means he’s petty damn good at cheating too.
I don’t either it was meant more of a joke. Of course them cheating and winning a super bowl against the Eagles doesn’t help my liking of them.
I don’t think the steelers think it’s funny, for Patriots defenders to be calling out the steelers offenses plays even before the QB got a chance to tell the other 10 players in the Huddle…
..
It’s one thing to study your opponents tendencies and know what they are doing by seeing how the offense lines up… But to know exactly what the offense is doing before the offensive players even lined up is a disgrace…
…
I don’t think they cheated their way to all their rings, but a few Of those rings are a joke…. If evidence had to be destroyed before anyone “could see it”, then I can’t respect and recognize that Super Bowl win… Do I look like Boo Boo the fool?
Meh, Belickick has had more than his share of luck that we (or any coach) could only dream of…without any of the following, would argue he would have never won a Super Bowl in the first place:
1.) Tuck Rule.
2.) Adam Vinatieri…has converted several of the most crucial field goals in NFL history, including the game-tying and -winning kicks in blizzard conditions in the infamous “Tuck Rule Game”, and game-winning kicks in the final seconds of two Super Bowls (XXXVI, XXXVIII).
3.) Tom Brady
4.) Playing in the AFC East
I personally fell the same way about him for getting undue credit much like the way I feel about the Colts for hitting the jackpot and drafting Peyton Manning followed by Andrew Luck. I love McNabb, but if Reid had Tom Brady or Peyton in their prime, I truly believe he would have had multiple Super Bowls and be referred to as a genius too.
“Man, this guy had no luck and no good circumstances, yet he won multiple Super Bowls”
Said nobody. About anyone. Ever.
I’m merely replying why I’m not a huge fan of Belickick being referred to as a genius and best coach ever. Is is and great coach, yes; but for the life of me, he has had many breaks that other coaches could only dream of to get where he is. No need to be snarky.
I heard this quote somewhere – “Luck is where preparation meets opportunity.” Maybe the Pats did have some luck, but you need to give them credit for even being in those games. You have to give credit to Belicheck for a brilliant defensive scheme in the Super Bowl to stifle the “Greatest Show on Turf.” I don’t think someone gets lucky winning 4 Super Bowls.
As for if AR had Brady, I don’t think he would have won more than Belicheck did. AR would have passed Brady to death rather than having a balanced attack. AR had plenty of luck in his career: 4th and 26, how the perfect situation played out in order for the Eagles to make their final championship run, Reggie Bush fumbling a toss in the playoffs giving the Birds’ offense the ball at midfield…I think everyone gets lucky – it’s about if you can take advantage of that luck.
Belicheck having his ineligible WR line up inside 3-4 times against the Ravens. Legal and smart yes, but damn it’s just so unfair on its face. The refs could have reasonably gotten confused and slowed the game down before those snaps, which could have meant no SB for them this year.
Um, how about the Seahawks passing the ball from the one with Beastmode on their team.
I argue it’s not ok just b/c they got caught and punished. We don’t get to replay the SB. The fine and first round pick after our SB loss does not even the playing field.
that’s right. Never forget.
I got the feeling from Peters and Ertz that Mathis was not going to be welcomed back with open arms. Actually found it surprising. I’m not in the facility but it did surprise me. There will be good guards cut, expensive guards cut and trades that could be made I haven’t thought of. The problem for me right now is not the starters, it’s the lack of depth on the OL
One more thing- trading a 34 yo guy who missed 7 games and carries a 12 million dollar contract with him is not going to happen. Ever. Oh and he wants more money. I am all for players getting paid every dime they can but Mathis overplayed his hand. Should have shut his mouth and gotten overpaid by the Birds in a system he knows.
Mr Bradford says hello….
Teams don’t follow the normal rules when it comes to the QB position.
What’s Bradford have to do when talking about a 34yr old…. mathis could be the definition of durability for all I care, he is still close to being 34yrs old. Close to halfway to 40…. He is lucky to be playing in the NFL at the age of 34 and 35, łet alone collecting 11mil at that age…
Well said….
Chip screwed up. Don’t intentionally make your team worse.
Did you listen to Tra Thomas’s interview? He basically said that the Eagles are better without Mathis and that Peters/Barbre is the better combo over Peters/Mathis.
Tra Thomas also thinks Chip let him go because he is a racist. I think he lost credibility when he said that.
what does that have to do with football?
Just means Tra isn’t credible when speaking to reporters
Amazes me that people really believe the coach makes moves to make his team worse.
intentionally was a poor choice of words on my part. But I don’t understand how anyone could possibly think Barbre and Tobin are better than Mathis and Herremans. You’d have to be stupid to believe that.
Perception =/= actual performance last season.
The dropoff from Mathis/Herremans to Barbre/Tobin isn’t particularly significant.
I’d love to see a breakdown of this, Mathis and Herreman’s play versus Barbre and Tobin’s. Also, do you think Mathis was playing poorly because he was coming off an injury or did he just have a down year?
Todd is a pretty average player at this point in his career. He’s average and on the decline. Todd to Barbre/Tobin is a lateral move at worst.
Evan is still a solid player, but I think people take the praise a bit far. “Best OG in football” is nonsense. “OH but PFF says…” anything you say after that is immediately invalidated. He struggled with the injuries last year. He’s a good guard, but lets be real, he’s 34. Low tread or no, physically the body just can’t keep up at a certain point.
Barbre is essentially what Todd was last year. Savvy, veteran, but is cheaper and a few years younger.
Tobin is going to surprise people. In 18 months there will be a metric ton of “oh I always knew he was going to be awesome” revisionist history (the same way people do about Ced). He’s a good run blocker with flashes of very good to great. Fluid, gets in space well and shows some power. Remember this is a kid who was a late bloomer (growth spurt at 17, walked on at Iowa). He has some technical flaws in his game. He doesn’t have great lateral agility in pass pro. However he’s made big strides in this area. It’s something that dates back to his college days, but instead of getting beaten by a redshirt sophomore from Purdue, it now takes a top 10 interior DL to beat him. Alot of his struggles last year also seemed to be communication based. He was unsure of what pressure and stunts to pick up. This is just an experience and understanding that only comes with time.
To summarize, Babre = younger, cheaper Todd.
Tobin < Mathis, but cost a fraction, is a solid starter in this league immediately and has a realistic ceiling of above average to pretty good guard in this league (Think Todd in his prime range)
I’m willing to bet that Todd goes to the pro bowl instead of Mathis if he’s at LG.
Hmm, well 18 months from now if Tobin hasn’t reached his Toddfather potential then we will be revisiting this post :).
I was going to ask about that. It seemed like Lane & Kelce being out had a much more significant impact on the team than Mathis (or Herremans). I distinctly remember the difference when Lane came back but without watching tape/being able to properly evaluate lineman I didn’t want to jump to conclusions.
And possibly nonexistent. Plus, significant cap space freed up for next year.
They have another year of experience, and we don’t know what to expect from the new guys either.
Right. So as Sherlock Holmes said, eliminate the impossible. Kelly is not stupid, therefore this was done to make the team better.
“we’re happy with the guys we have”
/frantically start signing a bunch of guys nobody has ever heard of.
Tra Thomas who one would assumes know something about OL does think that is the case. So there’s that.
Obviously Chip doesnt think Tra is a good coach. Otherwise he wouldn’t have fired him
Generally speaking, bad coaches have a better understanding of the game than good fans.
You mean like Rich Kotite
Yes. I believe that somebody who reached the pinnacle of coaching football (even if he didn’t succeed once there) understands football better than a bunch of people who comment on a football website. Call me crazy.
I’m not sure that’s true,.. Chip claimed that the ONLY reason we created space for Tra was to take part in the NFL program where former players get some coaching experiemce on their resume.Chip said Mr Lurie created a role for Tra, we let him coach offense one year, and defense the next year, but Tra wasn’t ever really one of our coaches, he was a former player getting an opportunity for some experience to jump start his coaching career…. Made it sound like Tra was always ONLY going to be here a year or two as part of that MFL program…
..
With that said, If Tra would have really impressed chip, chip would have made room for him, since we already have the biggest coaching staff in the league..
Hm, i think youre getting a little loose with your claims here. Did he fire him or just decide not to hire him full time? Doesnt mean he thinks hes not a good coach, just not good enough to hire full time.
Also, he may be a poor/medicore coach, but doesnt mean his assessment of difference between Mathis and Barbe is inaccurate. Point is, you said only idiot would think Barbe and Tobin could step in and produce pike Herrmans and Mathis and yet you have someone in Thomas who says just that.
Its tempting to be negative and say sky is falling. Chip has never, ever won a playoff game in two years! Were doomed. Talent talent talent!
The appropriate response right now, that many leveled headed football minds and some fans have suggested, is to sit back and watch.
Yeah I always got a kick out of that too,.. There isn’t a single move chip Kelly makes that isn’t made to try to improve the team… Sometime we have to wait til we see the complete picture
..
We traded shady for Kiko, some people thought that was a bad trade at the time that made us worse, especially when we had just lost Maclin….
..
Then the “other shoe drops” and we find out that we basically traded Shady McCoy for Kiko, Demarco and Ryan Mathews…. Once we see the entire picture unfold, no one can say that trading Shady wasn’t done to improve our team…. We got rid of Mathis. today it doesn’t look like it was a move that made us better… But we won’t know if the move made us better until we see what type of LG play cutting Mathis made room for, and what else we will get to add freeing up that cap space…
..
Even tho it’s hard to see it Right now, I assume that in chips head we will be a better team going forward because of this…. Hopefully he turns out correct and he end up happy with the play we get from the new LG, and if that happens, we found a younger LG we can count on longer then we could have counted on 34yr old mathis..
..
I don’t believe CHip makes ANY decision unless he thinks it’s in our best interest, even if we can’t see the positive right away…
Step back to step forward.
you forgot to mention that you’re stepping forward with a mangled leg that’ll hopefully have a miracle happen before it goes forward.
All the media and ‘fan’ scorn heaped on Chip Kelly is just recycled waste from 35 years ago, when it was all dripped on Bill Walsh, who also traded popular players to get “his guys”. It is also being picked up and reused from 25 years ago, when the same drivel was spewed at Jimmy Johnson for bringing “his guys” from university and making outrageous trades. Neither of these coaches won 10 games in either of their first 2 years, by the way.
So you’re saying Matt Tobin is a better guard and you’re basing that on blind faith. Because coaches never mess up. Ever. And I say this as a very pro-Chip guy who isn’t afraid to call him out when he’s wrong.
tommy lawlor your seriously are a superior writer. we are lucky ..and we pretty much know it.
a freakin parallel to who what when?? and spelled out in full detail & sequence ..damn I bet you could have time stamped each move!
insane analysis. thank you
I think it is over the top saying Chip wants “unquestioning” commitment. He has repeatedly said he does not want to hear that we do it this way because we always have. He questions everything, and I think he invites that same approach. He is particular, and he is uncompromising on foundational principles like playing to win and training to win. You cannot train to win if you pig out on carbs or routinely cheat on sleeping. That is particular, but I don’t believe it is dictatorial. I posted a comment on the last thread on the labels for Kelly flying from the media in the wake of the Mathis termination that are great at hyperbolic oversimplification, and not so good at providing insight. I was not as impressed by Bowen’s reading as some were.
You are right unhinged. When difficult/controversial decisions are made then you can expect hyperbole to reign. The Mathis termination decision was multifaceted involving attitude, money, prior contract offers, age, blocking technique, declining health, and others. Culture was a driving force, no doubt, but only part of the equation. Time to move on, nothing to see here….
Hey OD…what do you mean when you say Sports Science has a dark side?
Do you think ‘Rambo’ (or Stallone) can still perform the same as in 1982? Sports science cannot stop Time.
No i don’t think anyone could. I’m still not sure that answers my question in reference to a dark side. I was just curious if OD was alluding to some sort of side effect.
Sports Science will quickly and efficiently show a decline in key performance metrics and stamina. Age-related decline is transparently revealed. Mathis’ metrics were in decline. Herremans’ were too.
Ok got it, thanks man.
Very good insight re sports science pinpointing decline. I hadn’t thought of its ability to do that, and I’m not sure why.
It’s time for Les to move on to a new career as well.
Hyperbolic oversimplification – love it. Ironic that you are neither exaggerating nor dumbing down the media coverage with those 2 words.
I thought Tra Thomas’ comments were interesting, considering he has every reason to trash Kelly like the rest of the ex-Eagles. I mean a reason to trash Kelly even more than he already has.
He said the Eagles won’t miss Mathis and they will be better with Barbre. He said Peters and Mathis had different styles when they played which caused some problems. He said Barbre and Peters have the same style of play and we should see more continuity on the left side this year. He also likes Tobin.
Considering Tra was part of the coaching staff, in meetings, and watching film, he has an inside perspective on this.
Wow, I didn’t see that. And this from the guy who called Chip a racist?
Maybe Thomas thinks Mathis is racist too. LOL.
What reason does he have to trash Kelly? Wht are you talking about? Tra had ZERO coaching experience, Chip Kelly gave him a job, let him get two years of coaching experiemce to add to his resume and help jump start his coaching career. Chip let him Help coach offense one year. And the defense the next year… chip gave him an opportunity to help start a his coachng career… Yet you think Tra has the right to trash Chip, and act like an Ignoramt piece of crap and basically call chip a racist after what Chip did for him? WTF did Tra Thomas EVER do for Chip Kelly? NOTHING, yet chip was kind enough to give him two years of coaching experiemce, and he deserves To be trashed, by an irresponsible piece of shit. Pulling that bullshit tired Race Card trying to dirty the coaching career a man dedicated his life to?
..
Please explain why Tra Thomas had any right to Rilp chip? Funny that is Ignoramt trashy actions basically ensure that Tra committed professional suicide.. owners don’t like a guy that rips an organization on the way out…thanks to Tra ignorance, I’ll be surprised if he ever works again in the NFL… Racist accusation to the head coach on his way out of Philly = professional suicide
I meant Tra Thomas already thinks Kelly is a racist so why should he defend Kelly’s decision to release Mathis. He didn’t have to say anything, or he could have said it was dumb move and Kelly will regret it.
Gotcha… Yeah that def makes sense. At this point the damage is done, I don’t think sticking up for Chip over Mathis would get him back in chips good graces, because I doubt chip cares if anyone defends him or not…
So it’s probably fair to assume tbis is an honest opinion from Tra, no point in talking up chip now. Nothimg nice he can say will erase calling chip a racist.. makes sense.,. Plus coaches talk about players behind closed doors. I assume he heard Stoutland and chip talk about being impressed with guys like Tobin and Barbre in the past
It doesn’t seem to me as if Tra has much of a desire to continue his coaching career in the NFL. He already trashed Kelly once and even if he didn’t realize what the results would be he has to know now that he has little chance of another team hiring him(what HC is going to hire a guy who has history of blasting his employers in the media?). So now there is no motivation for him not to give his unfiltered opinion. He doesn’t necessarily have motivation to trash Kelly but he has no reason not to give his own honest opinion and not just say the typical “coach speak”.
How can you say he didn’t have a desire to continue coachng, when he trashed Chip because he was upset that they werent keeping him on the staff for a 3rd year? The reason he was mad is because he basically lost his job… Although chip claims it was never really a job, it was just Mr. Lurie being nice to open up a temporary spot to do our part in the minority coach traning program…. if Tra had no desire to coach, I don’t think there is any reason for this drama to have happened…
Agree on inside perspective. Also Jason Peters’ seeming indifference.
I always knew Romanowski was full of sh!t…
The only song on Mathis’ resume regarding how he handled this situation was when he wrote “Deeez” on his Twitter account. It doesn’t get much attention because it was explicitly addressed to Chip and most people, especially those over 35, aren’t quite sure exactly what it means. The tweet was undoubtedly directed squarly at Kelly after he said Mathis was available for 2 off seasons and not a single offer had been made. There’s no other explanation and Mathis, even after being called out by Kempski, said it wasn’t necessarily directed at Kelly but refused to offer any alternative to that narrative. Now, what does “Deeez” actually mean? It’s short for Deeez Nuts as in you can suck these nuts. Now, perhaps I’m going out on a limb, but if you publically tell your boss to suck on these nuts…well I can’t say you handled your contract as well and as professionally as possible. I’m pretty sure most of us would get fired if we didn’t show up to team building exercises, missed half a year of work, demanded more money and told our boss to suck our nuts on a very public Internet forum.
But, but, what if I’m the star IT professional?
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4fzya3GjV1rnnxiao1_500.gif
Lol better hope they don’t have anyone else near your level.
http://blog.boulderdigitalarts.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/nedry-jurassic-park.jpg
Great response. I was going to mention this in response to Tommy’s remark that Mathis never ripped the team publicly. There was no Twitter back in ’03, so doing this is pretty much akin to what Welbourn did on the radio.
Chip KNEW that Mathis was NOT happy with his contract. last year Mathis handled the situation really well as far as what we know. I think that if After Mathis asked chip to put the old offered deal back on the table and chip said No, if Mahis instead of holding out, would have came in, worked his ass off every day with his teammates, stay late to help the rookies, if Mathis would have done everything right this summer even tho he was so unhappy about his contract, I’d think there would be a good chance that at the end of the summer chip would have rewarded Mathis with at least the old deal that he took off the table, when Mathis no longer expected it, because he did right by his teammates even tho he was unhappy with his deal.
…
Once mathis put ANYTHING ahead of the team, and working to improve each and every day, he officially had No chance of winning this game of chicken with Chip
…
Tho I’m surprised we cut Mathis when we did. I did NOT see that coming a few days before Mathis was forced to report.
Yeah, there is absolutely ZERO doubt that his tweet was a Direct “DEEZ NUTS” to chip… If anyone believes other wise, I’m having a clearance sale on Bridges.. I’ll give you a great price..
How much for you to jump off it?
;~)
I’m 40 and offended, J. “Deez nuts,” along with “chillin” and “word,” were in my regular vernacular during my early twenties. Quit calling me old.
Yes, I’m 40, too. Deez to you, Jernst!!!!
I actually remember when I became aware of that term. I’m pretty sure it was late 1993 and I came home from college to find my little brother listening to way too much Snoop Doggie Dog!
Mathis did apparently contact Kempski (after Kempski recently made the connection) and did claim that the tweet was not directed to Chip. For what it’s worth. It’s the “Update” section at the bottom of this article:
http://www.phillyvoice.com/envisioning-eagles-ol-without-evan-mathis/
Brett Tessler
@TesslerSports
1m1 minute ago
The Philadelphia Eagles are signing Jared Wheeler (G/C, U of Miami) on Monday pending a physical. He was let go by Seattle after the Draft.
So, they’re not signing a vet, at least not one that’s available right now.
They do like dudes with beards.
Not here to compete on OL. Just the team wanting to make sure that Kelce doesn’t get complacent defending his best hair/beard combo title.
That’s Chip, he’s about competition in all facets of the game.
Anyone have any insight on him?
6-4.5 and 320 pounds …40–5.35, short shuttle– 4.75, ..10 yd dash- 1.82, vertical 27 inches…the only thing he needs to work a little more at is the benchat 225 where he did 24 reps…..but that will come when on an NFL team..has the long arms. Arms span longer than Jake Matthews (OT) Texas A&M, and same as Taylor Lewan (OT) of Michigan both expected to be top 15 picks.
(Above from a Miami(FL) fan message board).
Gotcha
Thank you…. 320 is nice, I’m glad to see some Girth at Guard..
He wasn’t drafted and he’s been cut by four teams after being in the league a year.
I am sorry to rain on the parade of those who are thrilled that the Eagles are getting younger at offensive line, but he sounds like a temp camp body to me.
Anyone want to take a stab at Mathis’ next contracts value?
I’m going to guess 3-4 million a year for 2 years. I think he’s damaged goods now and teams have all the leverage negotiating with him. I think he’s lost a lot of money with what happened.
That’s what I guessed yesterday, it’s will either be a 1yr del for 3.5-4mil, or 2yrs 7 or 8mil…… When it’s all said and done I expect his greed and stupidity to end up costing his family around 3 million dollars less then what he would have made to stay in Philly…. Which is why I was hoping Chip would be strong and save Mathis from his own stupidity. instead we lose a quality starter, Mathis loses 3mil from hs families bank account, and that greedy slimeball drew Rosenhause is the ONLY winner, getting to cash a commission check from the new contract he negotiates even if he caused his client to lose Millions…. mathis is a damn Fool, if he is lucky he will at least end up with a contender… Worst case, he spends his last few years on a crappy team, making less money then he would have made to contend with us..
I thought Rosenhaus was Mathis’ agent back when he signed his current deal, so unless he is taking a higher percentage now, Rosenhaus would lose as well. Unless Mathis’ goal was to get released for some reason, it would seem like everybody loses.
Given age, style, and the rate that he was making and not happy with, I’d normally be inclined to agree with you. But this is the NFL where egos and dollars trump brains and perspective. Denver, where douche bag Elway fired a coach after following consecutive 13-3 seasons with a 12-4 season has OL needs, as does Minnesota, Miami, KC and Atlanta. I think all Mathis and Rosenhaus need to do is be patient, and the money will come.
Maybe so. I personally think his upper limit is 5 mil per year for 2 years, and he’ll be lucky to get that, but you never know what an OL needy team might throw his way.
He’ll definitely have the last laugh if he gets a better deal than he had here.
The kerfuffle raised by Andy Benoit’s SI article confirming DeMarco’s blindness was answered at more length than Kempski’s response by Jared Dubin at CBS Sports. Dubin went all out, citing Jimmy and delving into statistical bias.
ttp://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25212734/did-demarco-murray-leave-yards-on-the-field-depends-on-the-perspective
The link doesn’t seem to be working. I believe the ‘h’ which should be at the start of ‘http’ is missing. Text Transfer Protocol needs the Hyper in front. ;~)
Thanks, MagsMama, for pointing out the errors of my ways. I am guilty of sloppy copy/hasty paste/ premature submission. For anybody who was unable to get to the page:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25212734/did-demarco-murray-leave-yards-on-the-field-depends-on-the-perspective
In Benoit’s first example where he says Murray should have run straight into the hole, Murray’s move to his right before hitting the hole made the middle linebacker abandon his gap and get on the wrong side of Zach Martin. Instead of the linebacker filling the hole and Murray getting 3-4 yards, Murray’s move helped open up the hole and let him get 8 yards. This is an example of Murray having good vision and helping his o-line, not an example of bad vision.
After Jimmy K and then Dubin, Bemoit might be walking around in a disguise. Dude was punked by 2 peers. Would not be shocked if SI is very unhappy w/him right now.
I think what bothers me most about cutting Mathis is this trend – one that Les Bowen pinpointed very well – of weeding out everyone who doesn’t “buy in” 100% to the Chip Kelly philosophy. Seems like crap management to me. I remember part of the allure of Chip Kelly when he was hired was that, compared to Andy Reid’s utter stubbornness and dedication to his way of doing things, Chip had a certain flexibility and openness to his methodology and coaching philosophy. That flexibility seems to have evaporated over the last couple of years.
Cutting Desean I could buy. He always seemed like a pain in the butt when the sailing wasn’t utterly smooth, and I could envision that being addition by subtraction. Mathis, however, did essentially everything right except for sit out a VOLUNTARY camp in June, and Chip responded by cutting him before pads were even put on. There was no reason to do that, even if they did feel Mathis was declining. Couple that with the fact that we’ve failed to draft any olinemen in the past couple years and the line is starting to look mighty thin, even after Chip went on record saying that oline depth seemed really important after all the injuries last year.
In a broader sense, I think a workplace – in any field, including a football team – that only accommodates a certain type of personality is a crappy place to work. I wouldn’t want a boss like that. In addition, if out of X personalities, Y personalities, and Z personalities, Chip is only willing to hire/coach X personalities, that dramatically shrinks the talent pool available for the Eagles. In a talent-driven league, that seems like a crappy decision.
so you completely ignore the fact that Mathis held out last offseason as well and had been asking for more money for more then two years also stories leaking of a contract offer being pulled after he didn’t initially accept it. Whining about it in social media and all that I guess didn’t happen. Don’t paint Mathis as a saint that did nothing wrong. I am upset they cut him but don’t make it seem like it’s the Eagles fault only.
A few of his line mates don’t seem to be nearly as worked up about it as some of the media.
There is a difference between personality and “buying in”. Personality has nothing to do with agreeing to follow your companies policies & playing by their rules. Kelce and Jenkins have very different personalities yet both “buy in” completely. Wanting people focused and driven to the point where they will make the sacrifices asked of them is not a bad thing. Wanting people who understand that raw talent alone will only get you so far is not a bad thing.
Allow me to respond to you with some words from the great Bill Walsh.
this is an excellent quote. at the same time walsh had lott, montana, rice, and one of the greatest teams of all time. no doubt the culture and attitude of those teams was a big part of their success, but that team was fucking loaded with talent as well.
Walsh was 2-14 and 6-10 his first two years (and the 49ers were 2-14 the year before he arrived). Whatever talent he had, he obtained it after he got there for the most part. I guess the question is if there were talented players he did cut due to incompatibility — I don’t know the players from the 1970s that well so I don’t know.
Speaking of workplaces, the way I see it is..Mathis has that millennial mentality while Chip has that baby boomer mentality. Chip is an egomaniac and a control freak. If Howie still had some sort of pull then I doubt Mathis would have just been flat out cut.
but just straight cutting guys, if i was another team i’d just be sitting back waiting on eagles to be contract year or make the pro bowl b/c i know they’ll get straight cut
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/c7/18/54/c7185413ba7317cffc08dbc54b223a6c.jpg
Mathis took a chance on himself and it didn’t work out. The team liked what it saw without him, and they saw more downside than upside to his contract. The whole dictator Chip thing is a media firestorm, in that all coaches have a strong element of dictator. Teams don’t run as democracies.
I’d be very careful about my thought process if I found myself strongly agreeing with articles like that Bowen one.
Bowen’s point is spot on.
Kelly’s “my way or the highway” dictatorial approach will only be Belichickian if he wins. If he doesn’t, it becomes Josh McDanielsian.
Soooooo…will he be Belicheat’s OC in like 2 years?
that;d be scary
Or successor.
How about Josh McDaniel-san…
If not showing up for voluntary workouts gets you cut then I guess they aren’t really voluntary workouts.
thats what the NFLPA is looking into.
Have to be able to prove that is why he was cut and the Eagles haven’t made any type of statements that indicate that.
Not going to deny that was part of it but really what prompted his release now was the possibility of him showing up to mini-camp, getting injured, and the team being on the hook for his salary.
Not showing up certainly shows your teammates what your level of commitment is. Like Diccsean both years in Washington so far. ” I don’t need to work hard like the other guys because I am so much better than them. And I have more money.”
Hmm, take the work of Les (can’t write my way out of a paper bag) Lowen, or the word of Tra Thomas and Herr-dawg? Yeah, this ship was sunk before it left the dock.
No idea why anyone would care enough to even know what Les has to say. I’ll be damned before I read his nonsense.. That’s like a step above the Elliot Shorr Paeker hack
“It’s wide open and there’s a lot of interest,” Rosenhaus added. “The contract has been an issue, so that’s a factor. We won’t necessarily rush into signing immediately.” The Dolphins, Patriots, and Rams have been previously linked to Mathis, while the Bills are reportedly doing their due diligence.
hahahahh
while i agree with chip’s culture and character rhetoric you do need talent to win in this league. you’re walking a very fine line between good and bad leadership when you become as hard lined and heavy handed as chip has shown throughout his tenure here. i have to problem with chip betting on himself, that’s why he is where he is, but at the same time you’re also betting on players like gardner, tobin and the like.
While this is the 3rd offseason, not the first, its clear that chip is still building the team. So, i think chip does value talent, but he is still finding “his” talent.
If chip is still outright cutting talented players in the offseason leading up to year five, then that would be even more concerning.
Also, as others have pointed out, the situation with Mathis is more complicated than a culture situation. It also involves age, production, and money.
[…] More on Mathis – Tommy Lawlor of IgglesBlitz.com […]
Think it’s safe to say that every fan would be more comfortable if Mahis was still here. It’s possible that we find out none of our backups are ready to elevate their game, take that next step and contribute at a starting level..
we could end up seeing a drop off from Mathis/Herremans to whoever wins the two starting spots between Gardner, tobin and Barbre.
.,
There is also a chance,that we have legit starting caliber talemt on our bench and the only reason we haven’t seen it yet is because they hAvent got an opportunity to play in a healthy situation.l.
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Sometimes you have to make room in the starting to lineup to give a backüp a chance to prove that he is an NFL startet after all.. Some times the only difference between a starter and a Backup is opportunity
..
Gardner, Tobin showed some ability last year. They also had their share of mistakes to improve upon. A year later I expect coaches to eliminate some of those Mistakes,.. Not only do I expect these kids to be better players then last year, but there is no way we saw the best these kids were capable of last year.. So not only did we not see what they were really capable of, but they should continue to grow, improve, eliminate mistakes this summer
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We may have our future starters on the bench already who are just waiting for a decent opportunity, of course it’s also possible that they can’t grow into starting caliber Pro’s….. I just don’t think there is anyway people can look at last year and say they are certain these kids will never be starting caliber pro’s….Hopefully OPPORTUNITY is the only thing between Tobin, Gardner and Barbre proving they can start for us the next few years…fingers crossed of course..
If Jason Peters weren’t so durable I would be interested in seeing how the level of mathis play when he is lined up next to Jason Peters compares to what Mathis looks like when Peters ISNT next to him…….. Guess I will find out this year
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Logan Thomas probably will get Cut by the Cardinals, wouldn’t mind chip bringing him in for a work out to see if he is worth investing in as a long term project.. Rather have Chip working on trying to develop Logan then Tebow.
I don’t know about the Logan Thomas thing brotha, he’s only had one year of success while playing football and that was his freshman year. He’s been absolutely horrible ever since which is about 4 straight years. I’m not a Tebow fan in any way and I definitely don’t think he is an NFL caliber qb but he’s had success in college and in the SEC no less, and success in the pros even though that was a very short success. Thomas is beyond terrible and couldn’t beat out Ryan Lindley for playing time. Much rather take a flier on Bryan Bennett, who I am pretty sure is still an UDFA.
will have to wait for the Colts to cut Bennett.
signed w/ Indy post-draft
Gotcha, thanks for the info AC. My basic premise was that Thomas is so bad that I’d rather take a shot at a young guy or wait till next year to draft a later round QB to be Chip’s developmental project.
I could easily say Tebow is so bad I would mch rather take a shot on young guy.
.Logan isnt meant to have success now. He is a raw talent who would be a project. you take a Flier on a talent like Him, IF you believe in his Charecter and intangibles enough to warrant undertaking the project of his development..
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personally, When we have a quality #2 QB, I would prefer the #3 QB be a high upside project.. But it doesn’t matter, you have to bring in like 5 raw talents like him and if you are lucky 1 will prove worthy of investing in his development. They may never make our Roster, but because playing QB for chip can be easier then playing in some of the other pro style offense. This isn’t a player that you are going to be able to fix and Develope in one year.. And it’s Jnow even about Logan, I would just hope we bring any high upside QB in for a work out to get an up close look…preferably younger players, not veterans like TImmy
Re: the success of 2004 despite the instability at guard.
Maybe there is a reason that offensive guard is considered to be the among the least important positions on the field.
You would think guard play would be more important in this offense due to the running philosophy. If we can get lane and Jason healthy all year long it could be very similar to that line though. Kelce is probably far better than fraley though .
Apparently Allen Barbre’s last name is pronounced “Barber,” which made me think of this filmic gem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-zf2UBp7fY
I know its old news but i am still stuck on Favre (farve?)… Its prolly Pronounced like favray…like Shelly Fabre…
To which I respond with yet another 1980’s classic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spefM2OjKp4
Get that cat outta here…
Ha!