Kevin Turner, Gone But Not Forgotten
Posted: March 24th, 2016 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 141 Comments »The Eagles have had some great Fullbacks over the years, but Kevin Turner was my favorite. Sadly, he passed away today at the age of 46. Turner died from ALS, which likely came as a result of head trauma from countless collisions as he used his body to open running lanes for guys like Ricky Watters, Charlie Garner and Duce Staley.
Turner wasn’t a 250-pound sledgehammer. He was about 235 pounds, but he was strong, tough and smart. He knew how to block. He used leverage, technique and effort to get the job done. Turner was a good athlete. He averaged 4 yards per carry, high for a FB, and caught 236 career passes for 10 TDs. I loved the creative way Jon Gruden used Turner when he ran the Eagles offense in 1996 and 1997.
Turner was as tough as it gets. That made fans, teammates and coaches love him, but it ended up costing him in the long run. There are times when I wonder about being a football fan. I can’t imagine life without football, but then I think about the price paid by Turner, Andre Waters and countless others. Is it worth it?
There is no easy answer to that question. All I can say is that I hope the NFL continues to try to make the game safer. It would also be great if the NFL would pull its head out of its ass and do right by the former players who made the league what it is. They paid the price in flesh and now the league wants to nickel and dime them. Do the right thing.
Marcus Hayes wrote a good piece on Turner a couple of years ago.
“I probably did more damage in practice and in training camps than I did in 106 games,” Turner says. “That’s the part we can fix.”
That part was fixed, a little, in 2011, when the new collective bargaining agreement reduced the amount of contact players could be subjected to in practice; the Eagles, under Chip Kelly, hardly ever hit. And, of course, the rules have been changed to alter the types of blows that can be leveled in games.
Then again, Turner often initiated the contact.
When offensive coordinator Jon Gruden was replaced by Dana Bible in 1998, Turner began to think his career was pointless.
“That 1998 season was a joke. The whole year was a waste of time. Bible is a good man, but he was in about 10 feet over his head,” Turner says. “I remember driving home with Bobby Hoying after the season opener in 1998 [a 38-0 loss to Ricky Watters and the Seahawks]. That was the only game I’d played where I went in thinking we’d just get our [butt] beat. I asked Bobby, ‘What do you think of the plan?’ He didn’t say anything. We just looked at each other. And we laughed.
“There wasn’t any plan.”
The plan, in the NFL, always is: Get the most out of these magnificent athletes until their bodies crumble. In Turner’s day, little thought was given to their minds.
That was chillingly played out with Turner a year before in 1997. He was knocked for a loop on the opening kickoff. Still, he never missed a play. Then, midway through the second quarter, he discovered himself sitting on the sideline. He looked at Hoying.
“Bobby, I know we’re playing the Packers,” Turner said. “Are we in Philadelphia or Green Bay?”
Hoying called over the team doctors.
“They held me out maybe two series, until after halftime,” Turner said. “I played the second half.”
He played the rest of the season, too. That was then.
Eagles nickel corner Brandon Boykin left Sunday’s loss in Minneapolis with a head injury. He is undergoing the league-mandated concussion protocol, according to general manager Howie Roseman.
Asked when Boykin should come back, Turner did not hesitate:
“I saw the game. I saw the play. At least 2 weeks.”
Turner never got 2 weeks off. Not if he could walk.
Turner underwent back and shoulder surgeries after 1997. He was the king of the “stinger,” a neck-nerve injury that often numbs an arm. Turner had played with a double hernia, knee tendinitis and a broken heart; he took a 30 percent pay cut in 1999, when Andy Reid replaced Ray Rhodes. The restructuring kept Turner from being cut, but it also erased the final year of his deal. The stingers became chronic in 1999. He could not finish that season, and never played again.
“I was so angry when they gave him the pay cut. It was just the principle. The stingers, the pay cut . . . I was just finished,” Joyce says.
Turner mulls the question, though, clearly, he has considered it before.
If you knew your brain would take such a beating, would you have played in the NFL?
“At that point, you’re 22 years old, you’re in the best shape of your life, you think you can run through a brick wall,” Turner begins.
And, so, you try? Again? And again?
“If I knew then I might end up this way, I think I still would have played,” Turner says. “But I would have practiced differently. I’d have been quicker to come out of games. And I’d have retired after that 1997 season, when I got that big hit.”
Maybe he would have. The only problem is, Turner still adores the game. Absolutely loves it. He loves Chip Kelly’s mad genius, but marvels at its implementation.
“I can’t imagine what kind of shape they must be in,” Turner said. “I needed the huddle.”
Turner loves the recent domination by his alma mater, Alabama. He even loves the thought of his sons feeling the warmth of a football team’s camaraderie and the thrill of bettering the man across from him.
Will he deny his gifted boys a shot at eight NFL seasons like their daddy? Can he?
Nolan, a 16-year-old sophomore at Vestavia Hills, played nickel corner and safety on the 6A semifinalist.
“Ah, safeties, you know, they just run after the guy,” Kevin tells Joyce.
Nolan also returns punts. In that case, 11 guys are running after him. Kevin does not explain this to Joyce.
Nolan will be out of high school when Cole, 10, gets his turn.
“I’ll let him play when he gets to the eighth grade,” Turner says. “He’s mad at me. But I did some research, and I learned, and I believe, the brain grows and changes so much until you’re 14.”
Kevin Turner began playing when he was 5.
Let’s hope other players learn from Kevin. Listen to your body. Trust your instincts.
The joy I got out of watching him play shouldn’t compare to the joy that his friends and family got out of him as a person.
Today I lost a brother to #ALS @KevinTurner_NFL I no God needed you more no more pain you fought the good fight #RTR pic.twitter.com/F90fFA5Clc
— Mark McMillian (@MarkMcMillian29) March 24, 2016
Watching u as a rookie. MAX Effort & Unselfish Leadership are just 2 of the things u exemplified #RIP #KT #ThankU pic.twitter.com/GgViimDY2D
— Brian Dawkins (@BrianDawkins) March 24, 2016
Here is the PE.com piece with quotes from Jeff Lurie, Doug Pederson and Duce Staley.
RIP, KT.
_
I found a Turner jersey while moving out of my childhood bedroom a week or two back. It was strange because I don’t really think of him as someone whose jersey you would find at a Modell’s. I don’t know how I got it.
Stories like Turner’s make me feel uncomfortable following and enjoying this sport. You look at a roster in August and dream up great futures for these people you’ll never meet. Some will become stars. Some will get cut. But how many will end up like Kevin Turner or Steve Gleason or Junior Seau or Mike Webster in a couple years?
I can’t help but look at a roster of 90 guys and go “who on this list”? Macabre. But I can’t help myself now.
[…] Tommy Lawlor The Eagles have had some great Fullbacks over the years, but Kevin Turner was my favorite. Sadly, […]
I’m really happy there’s another thread. For some reason, I got subscribed to the last thread and was literally getting an email for every single comment. The disqus unsubscribe didn’t work
Been there. It sucks. Awful customer service for that annoying feature. Atrocious.
Tommy, interested to know if you cam across a recent study relating ALS to chronic trauma. From my understanding there is a familial type which accounts for about 10% of tje cases and sporadic which accounts for the remaining 90. To my knowledge lead exposure is a risk factures but chronic trauma was iffy. In any case there are only around 5 cases per 100,000 woth men slightly more prone to the disease. For anu interested ALS stands for amyotrophic lateral sclerosis and affects the body by replacing neurons with scar tissue which eventually eliminates the use of muscles leading to the most common cause of death, respiratory failure.
I agree. My understanding is there is no link between head trauma and ALS. ALS is different from CTE which is caused by head trauma. Most likely KT was just unfortunate and got ALS like everyone else not due to his football career.
http://web.alsa.org/site/PageServer?pagename=ALSA_Ask_November2010
Great post, Mr. Lawlor. One of your best in recent memory. I loved watching Kevin Turner play, and you could tell he was laying it all on the line for his team. And he paid the ultimate price. As I get older, I find myself asking that same question…I love football, and there is nothing better than rooting for the Eagles… But is it all worth it for these athletes? Each time I see more and more stories like this, it almost makes me feel bad for loving such a violent sport. I truly hope the NFL does the right thing and spends some of its billions of dollars for studies on better ways to protect its moneymakers. And not just during their career, but well after it.
Quality post for sure,,, well done TL..
good thing you did here tommy.
Thank you for writing this article. Turner was an Eagles player just before I become a fan of the team. I’m glad you were able to describe (and I was able to learn) what he meant to the the team so clearly.
RIP KT
Turner was before my time but it’s always sad to hear about how former Eagles pass away.
Since we have nothing else to talk about, lets continue some draft games. Try to compare some of your favorite draft prospect’s floor and ceiling to current or former NFL players. Here’s an example.
Goff
Ceiling: Matt Ryan
Floor: Teddy B
Wentz
Ceiling: Blake Bortles
Floor: Josh Freeman
Hargreaves
Ceiling: Joe Haden
Floor: Sheldon Brown
Jack
Ceiling: A roided up bastard child of Bobby Wagner + Lavonte David?
Floor: Mychal Kendricks/Aaron Curry
Stanley
Ceiling: Andrew Whitworth (not as nasty though)
Floor: Branden Albert
Think Wentz has a higher ceiling that Bortles (or maybe we just do not know where Bortles will be in 3 years). Think if everything goes right Wentz does have Luck/Rogers levels of upside… just needs a lot of things to go right to get him there.
Wentz
Ceiling: Rodgers
Floor: Flacco
I don’t really see how any of these QB’s can have a floor that is Flacco, a pretty good QB who was on FIRE during a SB run. He is what, top 10-15 QB for a few years now. Surely the floors of these QB’s is lower than that.
Hyperbole
I don’t see it. Wentz doesn’t have the same arm as a Luck/Rodgers or touch on throws that those three guys have.
What makes you look at Wentz like that? A couple of weeks ago most people didn’t know who he was and now you have his ceiling as Aaron Rodgers? That’s ludicrous. He may have upside but those comparisons seem like a stretch.
The media is already suggesting trading our 1st, both our 3rds, a first and a second next year for Carson Wentz, or our first, both 3rds and Fletcher Cox, people lost their damn minds
So notoriety correlates to upside? I don’t follow.
It’s blatantly obvious you don’t follow. Clearly what I’m saying is that not many people ever heard or watched Wentz play and just because he is in a weak QB class all of a sudden he’s being compared to Luck and Rodgers. That’s a joke in itself.
Goff
Ceiling: Brees
Floor: Bradford
Wentz
You nailed both
Alexander
Ceiling: Joe Haden
Floor: Robert Alford
VH3
Ceiling: Antoine Winfield
Floor: Prince Amukamara
Stanley
Ceiling: Russel Okung/Ryan Clady
Floor: Albert
Jack
Ceiling: Derrick Brooks
Floor: Mychael Kendricks
Ramsey
Ceiling: Charles Woodson
Floor: Byron Jones
Elliot
Ceiling: Frank Gore
Floor: Willis McGahee
Lawson
Ceiling: Tamba Hali
Floor: Justin Tuck
Rankins
Ceiling: Geno Atkins
Floor: Tank Johnson
Billings
Ceiling: Pat Williams
Floor: Mike Patterson
Decker
Ceiling: Anthony Costonzo
Floor: Gabe Carimi
Conklin
Ceiling: Bryan Bulaga
Floor: Levi Brown
Treadwell
Ceiling: Keyshawn Johnson
Floor: Roy Williams
Coleman
Ceiling: Joey Galloway
Floor: Tavon Austin
Bosa
Ceiling: Shaun Phillips
Floor: Chris Long
Your floor on Hargreaves is quite dirty.
Be nice. The man is literally a prince but has to live in Duval now.
No.
Those floors for Decker and Conklin is nasty.
Youre awful high on Lawson. With comps maybe the Eagles should pick him at 8.
I think if his medicals check out he’s very much in play at 8.
If Zeke’s ceiling is Gore he is not worth the 8th pick.
The floor for all these guys is: Marcus Smith.
Thanks, TL. Nice write up about a good player and an important subject. Makes me hope AR has changed his camp philosophy. ..for the players’ sake.
Turner was absolutely awesome. His comment about how much of that damage came from practices and not sitting out of games when injured was very telling.
I’m hoping that awareness about head trauma issues really sinks in for coaches on all levels of football.
Dear Coach Schwartz:
I’m sorry that I couldn’t get you anybody until round 5, but firming up QB, RB, T, G, and C long term was too good to pass up. I promise we’ll give you some new toys with the money we’ll save going into 2017 vs the cap with Bradford, Peters, and Kelce coming off of the books for a combined $26 million.
Round 1 Pick 8: Carson Wentz, QB, North Dakota State (A+)
Round 3 Pick 14: Christian Westerman, OG, Arizona State (A)
Round 3 Pick 16: Joe Haeg, OT, North Dakota State (C+)
Round 4 Pick 2: Jonathan Williams, RB, Arkansas (A)
Round 5 Pick 14: Evan Boehm, C, Missouri (A)
Round 5 Pick 25: Ronald Blair, DE, Appalachian State (A+)
Round 6 Pick 13: Henry Krieger Coble, TE, Iowa (B-)
Round 7 Pick 12: Deiondre’ Hall, CB, Northern Iowa (A+)
Round 7 Pick 30: Derrick Kindred, SS, TCU (B-)
Fixed it for you
Round 1 Pick 8: Jared Goff, QB Cal
Round 3 Pick 14: Connor McGovern, OG, Mizzou
Round 3 Pick 16: Max Tuerk, T, USC
Round 4 Pick 2: Justin Simmons, S, Boston College
Round 5 Pick 14: Matt Judon, DE, Grand Valley State
Round 5 Pick 25: Nick Kwiatowski, LB, WVU
Round 6 Pick 13: Jakeem Grant, WR, Texas Tech
Round 7 Pick 12: Dan Vitale, FB, Northwester
Round 7 Pick 30: Joe Thuney, C/G NC State
UDFAs:
Storm Woods, RB, Oregon State
Brandon Ross, RB, Maryland
Terrell Chesnut, CB, WVU
Delvon Simmons, DT, USC
AJ Zuttah, DT, Dartmouth
Tyrone Holmes, DE, Montana
Michael Cooper, TE, Indiana
Robby Anderson, WR, Temple
Luke Rhodes, LB, William and Mary
John Robertson, QB, Villanova
I win.
do you actually prefer to mcgovern to garnett or was he gone?
I think Garnett will go in the 25-50 range. I also prefer McGovern to Garnett. Stanford interior OL scare me.
so we get a better prospect with a lower pick? aight then
Were these guys all taken in a simulation or are you predicting who will be available at each pick? I can’t seem to find Grant on first pick.
Didn’t use a simulator because you get whacky stuff like Sheldon Rankins available in the 3rd and things of that nature. I did this the old fashioned way.
Whose round rankings of players should I use to try to do one in that manner?
CBS is probably about 90% right on valuations.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/553131/jordan-hicks
I knew it. REACH! CLEMMINGS!!!!!!!
I don’t buy the talk of us moving up for a QB, let alone to #1 to take Wentz. One day we are looking at Zeke at #8, the next day we are moving up for a QB.
Aside from Media Mike, if we really wanted a QB to develop with superstar potential, why not sit at #8 and take Lynch? With Sam in the fold for 2 years, is the upside of Goff or Wentz better than Lynch with 2 years of mentoring? I’m not advocating this, I’m just using his potential vs giving up draft picks for another QB with a similar upside.
Using the RGIII trade as a reference, to move up from #6 to #2, Washington gave up Three #1 picks and a #2 pick. Using the Jimmy Johnson trade chart, for us to move up to #1 would take at a minimum, two #1 picks, both our #3 picks this year, and next years #1 and #2 pick. That’s four to five starters for the privilege of drafting Wentz.
It would seem far fetched and self-destructive, considering we have a cap number of $160M in 2017 and $127M in 2018 (before a Fletcher Cox contract). Free agency would be extremely limited, and without those draft picks, finding cheap effective starters would be extremely hard.
If we were actually planning a big move up for a QB, I would assume that the media WOULDNT know about ….
I would agree, but that’s irrelevant to my point.
Teams try to figure out what other teams are doing. It’s part of their job. I’m sure many teams antenna went up when they traded to 8. However it could be total bullshit.
Certainly no one outside our organization has enough info to be able to “report” a trade up possibility… It’s either done by lazy connecting the dot/assumption/ possibility, or at best they got word on HOWIE making an exploratory call with a GM, which is stupid to report, since a smart GM will make exploratory calls with a bunch of teams in front of him, and behind him in the draft this time of year.
..
Guessing that we may trade up to #3 is about as worthwhile as “reporting” we are one of the teams that might trade up to #1… Just people throwing shit against the wall, calling it a “report”
If that’s the cost to move up to one this year there’s literally no way we do that. Too many holes on this roster to give up two drafts worth of starting talent for one player who we plan on sitting on the bench for a year or two.
Hell, people thought Chips supposed offer to move up from 20 to 2 for Mariota was ridiculous, but I’d argue that the trade from 8 to 1 using the JJ trade chart is just as costly.
I doubt that is likely but giving up (what, a 3rd?) to move up above SF to take the 2nd QB seems within what is probable.
You don’t take Lynch at 8. If you want Lynch, you trade down to a more appropriate spot to take him.
Taking it a little bit further. Assume the Eagles had to stay ahead of the Rams to get Lynch meaning they could drop back to 14. Chart value would be pick 60. Pulling names off WalterFootball’s last mock, would you trade Lynch (14) + Kenneth Dixon (60) + Adolphus Washington (77) + Eric Murray (79) + your 2017 first and your 2017 second for Wentz?
Assuming you have to go to 6 to get Goff, would you trade Lynch + Dixon + Washington for him?
On the flip side, a new coach needs his QB. They have a reasonably solid roster that should keep them out of the top 10 picks next year. They just went through a 3 year stretch where the coach never found his guy. After a longer stretch where Andy never found 5’s replacement. Does no franchise QB + top 8 pick = find a way to get it done?
Do the two ex-QBs think they could have been successful NFL starters in the right situations? If yes, they’ll believe they can develop a guy. OTHO, if they believe they were maxed out as backups and that to be a top starter you need top talent, they’ll push to make a move (if they believe in either of the top guys).
Honestly, it’s got to be nerve wracking to be in a front office at this time of year. Lots of big decisions with huge ramifications.
This Tweet should be renamed, “What’s the future of nepotism in the NFL? We talked to the NFL’s most powerful woman about nepotism:
https://twitter.com/JennyVrentas/status/713336930667257856
There are hundreds of example of nepotism in the NFL, and you decide today, when the subject is a woman, is the day to complain about it?
dave seems to pretty consistently fall on the “woman bad” side of issues i think this is 3 in a month actually
WTF are you talking about?
I was holding out a sliver of hope that he might be lamenting that women still only get opportunities in the nfl through nepotism, that she would have gotten her opportunity (like all the other women) without an “in”, so we haven’t really made much progress yet, while accidentally coming off as dismissive of the quality of work she does or qualifications that she has to do that job.
It’s important to remember that Nepotism doesn’t mean the family member in unqualified. It used to be common, expected even, to take up the family trade/ business, you were raised around it, and her education is appropriate to the role she plays.
Well said, I could be accused of having my career because of “nepotism”, but I had a lifelong education in my family business, it’s what I knew I would always eventually get into… I spent half my summers growing up basically as an unpaid intern because I cared that much about my future in that business… nepotism actually probably worked against me, I had to work harder at my craft to prove to my family that i was qualified to warrant certain opportunities, and for being at such a low level still in my industry, I feel like I’m probably overqualified for my humble position, and nepotism worked against me… On one hand, without nepotism, I don’t know how easy it would have been to get my foot in the door of the industry, but on the other hand, I feel like I probably had to work harder than my contemporaries to get the same low level job I have…. I don’t know many collegues at my level that spent half their summers growing up learning the business to get to the same level im at….
..
On the flip side, I admit I have seen plenty of people get opportunities that they don’t deserve because of Nepotism, I also seen people get to hold on to better jobs regardless of how much they fail at their job.
..
So it can really work both ways,,.
I felt pretty confident your first para is on point, so I just moved on. That’s exactly how I took it but you summed it up nicely.
things really got sidetracked here. I also think there’s a lot of room between “Erin doesn’t deserve [$35M]” and the person that says that hates women.
b3nz0z, if you’re going make a nasty accusation like that, back it up. You’re being a troll just trying to stir the pot.
it’s funny – nobody else has ever accused me of trolling on here. most likely because i might argue with people but i’m open to their opinions, i admit when i’m wrong, and i’m not just trying to stir the pot. but you’ve called me a troll three times. i guess i won’t worry about it too much as long as you’re the only one (especially when it looks like plenty of people seem to think you’ve got an ax to grind).
speaking of admitting i’m wrong – this isn’t your third borderline misogynist comment this month; it’s only your second. the first time was raging about erin andrews winning her lawsuit, or you didn’t think she deserved as much as she got because *you know women who have been truly victimized (unlike that attention seeking gold digger who had the honor of having her goodies broadcast around the world for years)*
i was a troll for thinking she deserved to win and thinking a large payout was necessary to deter future pervs?
this time i’m a troll for remembering that encounter and for noticing that today’s strange outburst at female officials represents the second data point in what seems to be a running theme for you.
you sure me “backing up” my accusations is really how you want this to go?
“I know of women who were raped and suffered horrendous mental anguish compared to Ms. Andrews. Unfortunately, they were not celebrities who could afford celebrity attorneys and a public trial.
I do feel sorry for her, but holy shit, troops coming back from war with PTSD should be awarded billions compared to her.”
That is not a misogynist comment.
First you accuse me of being a sexist three times in a month. Then when I call you out on it and you type the following like it was a quote by me… *you know women who have been truly victimized (unlike that attention seeking gold digger who had the honor of having her goodies broadcast around the world for years)* I never said that and here is the link to the thread to prove it.
http://igglesblitz.com/2016/03/2016-free-agency-preview/#disqus_thread
You are absolutely a troll. Your lying and made up quotes are only posted to upset me with the deliberate intent of provoking myself and others into an emotional response for your own amusement. Congratulations, you succeeded.
I’ve learned a valuable lesson today, to keep posts on topic and only discuss the Eagles.
oh are you upset? would it make you feel better if i pointed out that an asterisk is not a quotation mark? maybe misogynist was the wrong word – maybe there is a better word for assuming you know the quantity or depth of someone’s mental anguish.
as far as Andrews’ reward goes – do you know a better way to discourage people from doing something vile for a paycheck than to take all their money away? if i can sell a picture of a naked lady for a million bucks and i get sued for a million bucks i haven’t really lost anything.
and your fatalist *guess i can’t talk about anything on here* (again not intended as a direct quote so much as a humorous paraphrase) . . . dozens of people manage to talk about dozens of things on here all the time without it blowing up. you don’t have to avoid any topics -you’re free to bring up anything you want. the flipside is that we’re all allowed to reply.
I’m always ready to cringe when I decide to read one of his posts. Pretty much avoid them nowadays. It’s not just you.
I commented on it today because it was at top front of my Twitter feed this morning. When I was done reading it, I read the article about the NFL wants the taxpayers of Buffalo to give hundreds of millions of dollars to another billionaire to build a new stadium.
https://bills.buffalonews.com/2016/03/23/nfl-executives-say-bills-should-get-moving-on-new-stadium/
I’m sure my attitude is skewed right now with a certain privileged trust-fund billionaire bozo running for office, but I wasn’t in the mood this morning to read about a billionaire daughter breaking barriers in the white, stuffy, billionaire boys club.
I am not sexist and believe women can perform on the same, if not better level as men in businesses both large and small. Seriously, FU mksp for even making me defend myself.
To be clear, Tommy, ALS has not been positively linked to CTE. The linkage has been suggested, but not verified. The connection, made recently, is probably being made to include effected athletes in injury settlements. The disease is more likely genetic, either inherited or mutational. Doesn’t make it any less tragic. Kevin Turner RIP
wtf
Kevin Turner was a lead plaintiff against the nfl. His story is tragic. But there is no ALS cluster in the nfl. Not even a meaningful subset of the disease (CTE). In addition ALS has a lower motor neuron component, which basically means it occurs outside the brain itself. It’s just rotten luck.
i’m not an expert and there’s a chance i’m not understanding your point. are you saying there’s no link between deaths such as this and the head traumas from football careers?
EagleMind is obviously not an expert. Anyone in the sciences would never ever present something like that. EagleMind had not even a shred of evidence to support the statements.
No not an expert. But there is no ALS cluster in the NFL. There just isn’t. Just lots of dementia from CTE. Still studies will be done. Just believe a rare disease will be hard to find is a small population of athletes.
I presented no evidence, because, well nothing has been published. Research like this, looking for rare outcomes, takes years.
I’m not sure why you keep pounding this drum that he has no evidence to support his claim. There have been multiple studies done to see if there is any causal relationship between head trauma and ALS. None of them have been able to show that there’s any causal relationship whatsoever. THAT IS EVIDENCE. When you test a hypothesis (ie Head trauma causes ALS) and the data comes back and says that no statistically significant relationship exists between the two, you reject the hypothesis until data or evidence comes to light to prove otherwise.
I don’t think they’ll find a link, no. In fact, KT had no signs of dementia, just signs of ALS. Maybe it’s because he died so young. Still CTE has been found in teenagers. Remember there is a profound spinal cord component to the disease. People with trauma to their spinal cords don’t develop ALS. KT was a sympathetic figure in the CTE movement. His devastated body drew attention to the problem. While his disease seems to be a variation on a theme (neurological disease), the connection between the two just isn’t there. I can’t think of another player in the NFL that even has this diagnosis, other than him. That’s not proof, but while dementia seems to be a common symptom, ALS is rare.
Doesn’t Steve Gleason have ALS? That’s another NFL players with that diagnosis.
If he does, then I stand corrected. Still that’s just 2 people. I would expect more.
33 of 34 players tested post-mortem showed clear signs of CTE,[1] and additional players have so far been confirmed with CTE separately. These players have publicly acknowledged either having been diagnosed with likely CTE or having suffered symptoms, such as dementia or unusual memory loss, consistent with CTE. In some cases, the player has received a diagnosis of ALS but symptoms are consistent with CTE. There are at least two dozen former players who were diagnosed as part of a UCLA study but have not come forward publicly.[1] There are also around 4,500 former players who joined a class action suit against the NFL alleging that it had covered up a growing body of medical evidence about the preponderance of head-trauma related CTE in ex-NFL players.[32]
People with CTE demonstrate cognitive decline, abnormal behavior and dementia—all features indicative of brain damage. ALS, a motor neuron disease, involves upper (brain) and lower (spinal cord) motor neurons that die, causing a loss of muscle function. CTE is not a motor neuron disease, and there is no clear-cut cause-and-effect relationship between CTE and ALS. Some large, population based studies have provided evidence that head trauma might be one of many contributing factors involved in sporadic ALS, but much more work needs to be done in this area.
So we agree?
not entirely . . .
while it looks like you’re correct that there’s no proven link to ALS, there does seem to be a link to CTE, which looks like it can be pretty debilitating on its own as well as presenting ALS-like symptoms (there may be a significant medical difference between ALS and ALS like symptoms, but to the sufferer i’d guess it’s not that big a difference). so head trauma still looks like a discernible cause of pretty severe debilitation even if it isn’t exactly ALS.
now you add in my personal opinion that “where there’s smoke there’s fire” and the evidence that the NFL has attempted to cover up or obscure certain findings, along with what i’ve said above, makes me think head trauma is playing more of a role than your statement implied, even if you are technically right about the ALS (and it bears mentioning that the absence of evidence is not the same as the evidence of absence – especially in light of the NFL’s less than cooperative role in researching the issue).
Good point. The cover up makes us all suspicious. Billions are at stake (for owners). But the backlash has been muted, as the Game is more popular than ever. There are rumblings about parents not letting kids play, but I’m just not sure if that’s what’s really happening.
Yes. It is very clear in the scientific data that repeated head trauma leads to CTE. No such data exists to connect head trauma with ALS, however. Two separate things.
Interesting information. Thanks.
That is correct. ALS (Lou Gehrigs Disease) is not causally related to repeated head trauma the way CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy) is. CTE is what has been found post-mortem in a significantly higher percentage of football players than would be expected in the general population. CTE is caused by the deposition of tough fibrous proteins in the brain called Tau proteins. Repeated head trauma is known to cause the deposition of Tau proteins. Think of how callouses form on other parts of the body that experience repeated traumas. The body tries to protect itself by depositing tough fibrous tissue in areas that are repeatedly damaged. Unfortunately these Tau proteins cause problems with the way the brain functions when they accumulate and thus lead to CTE.
ALS has no relationship with Tau proteins. The disease causes ONLY the voluntary motor neurons (nerves that control muscle movement). All motor nerves are broken into two separate nerves that are connected in series with one another. The upper motor neurons exist in the brain. They connect with the lower motor neurons which run through your spinal cord and they eventually connect with your peripheral nerves which connect to the specific muscles those nerves control. ALS involves the death of both the upper and lower motor neurons. That means that the neurons in both the brain and the spinal cord die. It doesn’t make sense why head trauma would one: cause death of spinal neurons and two: why something so unspecific like bashing your head into things repeatedly would target just a very limited and specific group of nerves. That’s why it is unlikely that head trauma causes ALS.
This simply has to be the most informed message board among any sports fanbase. It is so great, in fact, that it makes me want to open a separate browser-window and read Blogging the ‘Boys comments section simultaneously. Just to fully appreciate how good we have it here. Actually, let me go and do that..
But Jerry Jones said the connection between football and CTE was absurd? I guess he may need to re-think some things…
RIP Kevin, you were one of the good ones
Just an example of an owner protecting his investment. He’s no expert. But because he’s rich, that entitles him to have an opinion about something he can’t even understand. Still, more to your point, I suspect there will be no causal linkage between ALS and CTE. Other than KT, can’t name another player that even carries that diagnosis. Making it still a rare disease, occurring at the same rate as the general population.
Where is your proof? :Making it still a rare disease, occurring at the same rate as the general population.
That’s an opinion. There are no studies (Yet).
You’re stating opinion as fact. You don’t understand science based on making claims with nothing to back your “scientific” claims. You do not even know the difference between opinion and fact and you’re pretending to be a scientific or medical expert..
I started this discussion because Tommy made the connection. I simply did it to clarify. I am a physician, but yes not an expert on ALS. I’m pointing out the link has not been definitively established. This will take years. While cognitive decline after brain injury was always well established (dementia pugilistica in boxers, or punch drunk), the difference was the cover up. While early dementia in contact sports athletes has exploded, ALS has not.
I agree. I am an MSIII and to my knowledge, as well, there have been no studies linking the disease. The only real causative agent was lead. I asked the same thing in a comment below because I was unaware of a recent article/study linking them.
You are Marcus smith?
That’s MSII. MSIII is a 3rd year med student.
How many career sacks do YOU have?
Well, I have examined several sacks. Hmmmm maybe 10?
That may be the worst top-10 ranking one can earn.
Where?
Why are you stating opinion as fact and can not present evidence if you’re a scientist?
My point is Tommy stated it as a fact. It’s not a fact, not yet. At this point everyone has an opinion, because it’s not been established. My opinion, is that this disease will not be causally related to CTE. That’s a guess on my part. BTW if sounds like I’m part of the cover up, I’m not. Just wanted to tighten up what is and isn’t known.
Well I think that clears it all up: That’s a guess on my part.
That’s really what I was saying. You’re guessing.
We agree. Thanks.
No more than people “guessing” that there is a causal relationship without there being any proof that that is the case. Repeated head trauma leads to CTE. That is well established. There has been no credible scientific studies or analysis of available data that support the notion that head trauma leads to ALS.
His “guess” is based on his knowledge of the disease and human physiology that he has from going to medical school. ALS results from the death of just your voluntary upper and lower motor neurons. It would be unlikely that something so nonspecific as bashing your head into things would so specifically target certain neurons and only those neurons while leaving all the other one’s unscathed.
Further, the reason that repeated head trauma leads to CTE is because it results in the deposition of Tau proteins in the brain which disrupt it’s ability to function properly. Think of callouses building up on other parts of your body from repeated traumas. That’s sort of what happens with the deposition of Tau proteins in a brain that’s constantly being smacked around the inside of the skull. Tau proteins are the hallmark sign of repeated head trauma and subsequently the hallmark sign of CTE. The relationship is easy to see and it’s clearly causal. However, people with ALS have no issue with excessive Tau proteins building up. Again, it would seem unlikely that head trauma and ALS would have a causal relationship if the thing head trauma causes, doesn’t cause ALS.
Can we definitively prove that there’s no other unknown effect that has the ability for head trauma to cause ALS, no. Just like I can’t prove that unicorns DO NOT exist. There’s no evidence to support the notion that head trauma leads to ALS, just like there’s no evidence that unicorns exist. So we accept that unicorns do not exist. We don’t demand that everyone must definitively prove to us scientifically that unicorns don’t exist and condescendingly talk down to them for suggesting that even if they can’t prove it, they’re fairly certain unicorns don’t exist.
What he’s saying is accurate. There has been no definitive studies that have ever showed a causal link between head trauma and ALS. The burden of proof, for anything, is on the person making the claim. You have to prove that it does cause ALS. It’s close to impossible to prove that something doesn’t cause it. All you can do is study it and if the results come back that there is no statistically significant relationship between head traumas and the development of ALS you have to reject the hypothesis that head trauma causes ALS until somebody can produce a study that says otherwise.
Here’s your proof:
Abstract
Our objective was to evaluate the epidemiological literature regarding the association between trauma to the head and ALS, in order to determine if trauma to the head is a risk factor for ALS. A Medline literature search was conducted for the period between 1980 and October 2010 using the search terms: (‘head trauma’ OR ‘head injury’) AND (ALS OR ‘amyotrophic lateral sclerosis’ OR MND OR ‘motor neuron disease’). The references of primary articles and reviews were checked to assure completeness of the search. Articles with primary data and reference groups were reviewed. The American Academy of Neurology evidence based method for classification of evidence for inferring causality and assigning level of conclusion was used. Twelve of 14 articles published since 1980 met the inclusion criteria. One class II article and three class III articles showed an association between a single instance of head trauma and ALS that did not exceed what might be seen due to chance alone. Eight class IV evidence articles could not inform conclusions. We concluded that evidence based analysis of the epidemiologic literature does not permit concluding that head trauma is a risk factor for, or causes, ALS (Level U conclusion).
PMID: 22424129 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]
Here’s more:
Abstract
Our objective was to examine whether severe head injury, subtypes of head injury, or repeated head injuries are associated with ALS risk based on the Swedish population and health registers. We conducted a case-control study, nested within a cohort of 5,764,522 individuals who were born in Sweden during 1901-1970 and followed between 1991 and 2007. The study included 4004 ALS patients identified from the Swedish Patient Register during follow-up and 20,020 randomly selected controls matched by gender and birth year. We evaluated hospitalization for severe head injury that was recorded in the inpatient register before ALS diagnosis. Conditional logistic regression was used to estimate odds ratios (ORs) and 95% confidence intervals (CIs). Results showed that there was an association of ALS risk with severe head injury ≤ 1 year before diagnosis (OR: 3.9, 95% CI 2.6-6.1). No association was observed for severe head injury > 3 years before ALS diagnosis, nor was ALS associated with subtypes of head injury or repeated injuries occurring > 3 years before diagnosis. In conclusion, our findings from the Swedish registers provide no strong support for an etiological relationship between severe head injury in adulthood and ALS risk.
PMID: 23286749 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]
And just for good measure:
Neurology. 2015 Apr 28;84(17):1788-95. doi: 10.1212/WNL.0000000000001522. Epub 2015 Apr 1.
Head injury does not alter disease progression or neuropathologic outcomes in ALS.
Fournier CN1, Gearing M2, Upadhyayula SR2, Klein M2, Glass JD2.
Author information
Abstract
OBJECTIVES:
To study the effects of head injury on disease progression and on neuropathologic outcomes in amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS).
METHODS:
Patients with ALS were surveyed to obtain head injury history, and medical records were reviewed. Linear regression was performed to determine if head injury was a predictor for mean monthly decline of Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis Functional Rating Scale-revised (ALSFRS-R), while controlling for confounders. Head injury history was obtained from family members of ALS autopsy cases. The frequency of tau proteinopathy, brain TDP-43 inclusions, and pathologic findings of Alzheimer disease (AD) were examined in ALS cases with head injury compared to cases without. Logistic regression was performed with each neuropathologic diagnosis as an outcome measure and head injury as a predictor variable.
RESULTS:
No difference was seen in rate of decline of the ALSFRS-R between patients with head injury (n = 24) and without (n = 76), with mean monthly decline of -0.9 for both groups (p = 0.18). Of 47 ALS autopsy cases (n = 9 with head injury, n = 38 without), no significant differences were seen in the frequency of tau proteinopathy (11% with head injury; 24% without), TDP-43 in the brain (44% with head injury; 45% without), or AD pathology (33% with head injury; 26% without). Independent logistic regression models showed head injury was not a predictor of tau pathology (p = 0.42) or TDP-43 in the brain (p = 0.99).
CONCLUSIONS:
Head injury was not associated with faster disease progression in ALS and did not result in a specific neuropathologic phenotype. The tau pathology described with chronic traumatic encephalopathy was found in ALS autopsy cases both with and without head injury.
© 2015 American Academy of Neurology.
He probably had CTE in addition to the ALS
Very possible. The ALS was just bad luck…the same reason everyone else get’s it. But, he very well might have had CTE. He didn’t have any CTE symptoms, however, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he didn’t have permanent damage. A lot of the dementia and other CTE-related symptoms don’t show up until years after the trauma. He could have died early enough from ALS that he simply hadn’t developed the debilitating symptoms of CTE, yet. Bottom line, while playing in the NFL undoubtedly took it’s toll on Turner and probably did or would have caused him significant problems throughout the rest of his life, but he most likely did not die the other day of ALS because he played football. That was just an unfortunate coincidence.
Wow Jernst. Strong work. There’s abstract work going on out there. Proving a negative is impossible (proving an association that doesn’t exist), because you need large populations in your study to prove it. More likely, a large longitudinal study of NFL athletes and perhaps college athletes needs to be undertaken. Will the NFL underwrite it? Dunno.
Remember, this is abstract work. This is different than published,vetted papers. Many of these abstracts will stay that way. My point earlier, was there is nothing definitive, not yet. But all your hustle shows what makes the most sense, that ALS is not causally related. I tip my hat to you Jernst.
And, just one more because you’ve been so aggressive in calling out EagleMind for making completely supported claims:
Amyotroph Lateral Scler Frontotemporal Degener. 2013 May;14(4):267-72. doi: 10.3109/21678421.2012.754043. Epub 2013 Jan 4.
Severe head injury and amyotrophic lateral sclerosis.
Peters TL1, Fang F, Weibull CE, Sandler DP, Kamel F, Ye W.
Author information
Abstract
Our objective was to examine whether severe head injury, subtypes of head injury, or repeated head injuries are associated with ALS risk based on the Swedish population and health registers. We conducted a case-control study, nested within a cohort of 5,764,522 individuals who were born in Sweden during 1901-1970 and followed between 1991 and 2007. The study included 4004 ALS patients identified from the Swedish Patient Register during follow-up and 20,020 randomly selected controls matched by gender and birth year. We evaluated hospitalization for severe head injury that was recorded in the inpatient register before ALS diagnosis. Conditional logistic regression was used to estimate odds ratios (ORs) and 95% confidence intervals (CIs). Results showed that there was an association of ALS risk with severe head injury ≤ 1 year before diagnosis (OR: 3.9, 95% CI 2.6-6.1). No association was observed for severe head injury > 3 years before ALS diagnosis, nor was ALS associated with subtypes of head injury or repeated injuries occurring > 3 years before diagnosis. In conclusion, our findings from the Swedish registers provide no strong support for an etiological relationship between severe head injury in adulthood and ALS risk.
PMID: 23286749 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]
“But because he’s rich, that entitles him to have an opinion about something he can’t even understand.”
I do that all the time. How come I’m not rich?
Kevin Turner exemplified what a true Philadelphia Eagle is – put it all out there, work hard and never take a play off. As confirmation, he had Dawk’s respect – ain’t gotta say no more. RIP Kevin Turner – you did your job.
I wish I knew Dawk would even notice my passing from this world.
Interesting that the two teams that RG3 could have signed with have ties to both of RG3’s coaches. it’s safe to say that neither Shannahan nor Jay Gruden are big RG3 fans. Allegedly Elway and Kubiack reached out to Shannahan and decided to pass on RG3 because of Charechter concerns. But I guess Hue Jackson didn’t care much about Jay Grudens opinion of RG3 for the Browns to proceed with the signing. Of Course the silly Browns owner may have pushed for the RG3 signing, but I doubt he would have stuck Hue with a QB hue was against..
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It’s also important to understand that when it comes RG3’s CHARECHTER concerns, they are talking about “Football CHARECHTER”. I havent heard anything about RG3 being a bad guy, or a risk to be arrested, but he is clearly not a leader, at least he wasn’t one in DC, Diva/ego concerns about whether he is willing to be honest about his underdeveloped skills throwing from the pocket, and Humble himself enough to keep working on them, even tho he probably won’t experience improved results over night.
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Normally, a change of scenery for him could ONLY be a positive, but in this case he is going to Cleveland, where QB prospects go to be ruined. Is Hue Jackson good enough to change,that culture regardless of the owner and rookie NFL Execs? If the hopeless Browns owner learned ANYTHNG, he would stop making changes after every failed season, and deal with the initial losing and give Hue a chance to really build something the right way the way the jags are giving to Gus Bradley, but we are talking about Haslam here, who has been completely clueless as an Owner
Browns are THE most desperate team in the league for a QB, and have been for years. At this point they are simply trying to throw up hailmarrys and land a QB.
Basically.. I would have respected the signing a little more had their silly owner not tweeted “GO GET HIM!!!!!”…
No matter what it is in life there always has to be a bottom dweller.
#GoBirds
If the draft falls a certain way where Roseman has VH as the BPA, I hope he picks up the Phone and calls the Browns about Joe Haden.. If the Browns new executives are planning to tear it down, and slow build thru the draft which will take years in THAT division, maybe we have a LONGSHOT chance to pry him away from the Browns. What’s the point of wasting the rest of his prime in a slow rebuild? By the time the Browns are any good, Haden will be at the end of his career..
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The Browns sure seemed to go with the, łet all our free agents Walk and load up on Compensatory picks strategy, but those picks DONT kick in til next year, maybe picks in THIS draft could entice them to part with him.
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a big road block is the Haden Injury/Surgery which could make them more willing to trade him, but might cause us to feel it’s too risky to trade the compensation it would take to acquire a Big Money Corner with an injury,, his contract certainly isn’t cheap. However, adding a CB like him could do wonders for taking this defense to the level we need it to be..
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If I had any faith in VH, I wouldn’t have to entertain such things but I don’t at all see him as a corner worthy of a top 10 selection.. After years over Chip favoring Oregon Duck playërs, I couldn’t deal with The Ridiculuos narrative of HOWIE continuing to de-chip the roster and show his power by drafting a fellow Gator alumni… Please spare me from that BS narrative
You’re crazy.
Trading a 3rd round pick for Haden isn’t crazy. It is sound logic, but I doubt it happens.
Just to be clear, are you actually suggesting that we trade the no. 8 overall pick for Joe Haden from the Browns??
He said the 3rd round pick
Hell no.. Would never cost that much considering his salary, and surgery
So we trade a third for Haden, and then what? We are still on the clock at 8 and Hargreaves is still BPA. Why would we have the pick, identify BPA, then trade for some other player using some other pick at the exact same position?
Since he wouldn’t be in my top-8, it’s not my concern
EXACTLY!! Smart man
Cuz I hate VH as a top 10 CB talent… What better reason than that do I need? Lol
How is that n any way relevant to Haden? Does getting a CB at 8 make you want to trade your third for another CB? Why?
A poignant, moving look back, TL. Thanks for your 2 cents.
https://twitter.com/Eric_Edholm/status/713527097256312832
Von Miller wants 22+ per year. See why Cox deal can’t get done . Wonder how teams will pay 2qb salaries.
They cant. They will have to choose between a franchise QB and a pass rusher such as Miller.
If you have a franchise QB you choose him everytime. It appears the Broncos do not have one, and more then likely won’t have one for the forseable future. Fortunetly for them they are a good enough team that they can win a SB with poor QB play as evidenced by last year. When you think about it that is a HUGE testament to the coaching staff and their ability to build a roster
So do I, but I’m not going to get it either
Why wouldn’t he want that when freaking Olivier Vernon got 17
its like we are at the precipice of the tipping point of the sport .. hope he gets it. hope they field just him on D
Wahoowa.
Shawn Andrews retweets militant right wing propaganda on his Twitter lately. He used to seem so happy-go-lucky
10 years ago he bought two Friggin Penguins and died his frowhawk red, while admitting to letting pussy Donovan Bully him for years, and no he is going Militant Gangster? Lol that’s rich….. Don’t make me call Donovan to smack some sense back into him