Trading Up
Posted: April 20th, 2016 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 913 Comments »The Eagles talked to the Titans about a deal for the #1 pick.
The Eagles are reportedly talking to the Browns about the #2 pick. One person is reporting the cost would be this year’s 1st and a 3rd and then next year’s 1st and a 3rd.
Oh wait. The Eagles have reportedly worked out a deal with San Diego for the #3 pick.
What about Dallas and #4?
Howie Roseman is busy working the phones. He has talked to all the teams ahead of the Eagles to see who might be interested in a trade and what the asking price would be. It never hurts to ask. You and I can guess at a trade price, but that doesn’t mean we’re going to be close, let alone right.
“I don’t think the price is as being reported. It may be close but that’s not exactly the terms of the trade.” – Schefter on Eagles-Browns
— Brandon Lee Gowton (@BrandonGowton) April 20, 2016
If I were an eagles fan I wouldn't believe rumors about cost to move up.
— Joe Banner (@JoeBanner13) April 20, 2016
Roseman is only going to pay a reasonable price. The Eagles have Sam Bradford. They aren’t desperate for a QB the way the Rams were. Also, the Eagles are moving from 8 to 2 or 3 or 4 or wherever. That’s hugely different than jumping from pick 15.
As much as Cleveland or some other team might want a deal, they won’t have 30 suitors. There will likely be a couple of teams talking to them about realistic deals. And with a limited market, you will have controlled bidding. The Eagles aren’t going to make a crazy bid since there isn’t a once-in-a-lifetime prospect available and there won’t be tremendous competition for the pick.
Cleveland may decide to pass on the Eagles offer. Negotiating is a game of chicken. If no one blinks, the Browns may be “stuck” with the pick and just take their target. There is still a lot of time for all this to be sorted out.
I do think the reported asking price of the 1st & 3rd for both years is too much. I like Carson Wentz, but don’t love him. I would not break the bank to get him. I would be more inclined to pay that for Jared Goff, but even then…that still feels high.
I wrote about Roseman and trading up for PE.com. He was well trained by Joe Banner and Tom Heckert on how to work the phones and how to make smart deals. He’s made some good draft trades in the past so I trust him to feel out the situation and figure out the smartest scenario. The Eagles will know which players they like and exactly how much they like them. They’ll make an informed decision based on the appropriate costs.
*****
Want to hear me talk about the draft?
Eagles Pre-Draft 2016 – EaglesFanCast 198 https://t.co/sB3Ohgtfn7
— EaglesFanCast (@EaglesFanCast) April 20, 2016
I did my annual show with Todd and Chuck to discuss the state of the team, the QBs, other areas of need and some possible players of interest.
Lots of fun as always.
_
Tommy, what do you feel a reasonable cost to move up is?
1st and 3rd this year with a 2nd next year?
And would you pay that for Wentz?
obv leaks by the browns to try and drive up price for #2. They have to be so damn jealous of what the titans got and teams are prob low balling the shit outta them now for that pick.
[…] Tommy Lawlor The Eagles talked to the Titans about a deal for the #1 pick. The Eagles are reportedly talking to […]
Hmmmm Tommy….
I saw that it was both 3’s this year and a 1st and 3rd next year. I’m not sure about that though. Peters is aging and has those nagging injuries that older players get all the time and our LG is on shaky ground. I’d want to keep those picks.
Without a 2 giving up a 1 and both 3s is insane,. We’d get what without a pi k till the 4th? A qb that needs to sit for a year and a whole lot of holes that can’t be filled. If next year’s draft is as QB rich as it’s claimed to be, then the Birds are better off waiting to see what they have in Sammy and trying to trade up with more ammo than they have now if Sammy fails to be the guy.
So assuming the framework is being set, do the Eagles make this trade before draft day when Cleveland is on the clock and we know which QB the Rams took? I wouldn’t like this if we give up a whole bunch later today to settle for whichever quarterback is left.
Other downside, I had a nightmare that we did trade up, Chargers drafted Ramsey and Dallas actually took Tunsil. My world melted on the spot. This cannot be allowed!
I would think that a pre-draft price would be significantly lower than a draft day price, and that the draft day price may also be affected to some extent by who the Rams draft.
Howie has no incentive to make a trade before the draft without it being a deal that’s just too good to pass up.
Well, I think all this smoke makes it likely there is some player the Eagles covet very highly. This, combined with the rumors with TN, does seem to be more than Roseman just doing his due diligence.
Who is that player? Many think it would be Wentz, but I would not be surprised if it is Tunsil or Ramsey. OT and CB are two of the premier positions and ones we need to shore up. QB is the premier position, but like Tommy I do not think Wentz or Goff are worth giving up that much.
It will be interesting on draft day for sure. I assume either of these trades would happen on the clock since all parties would need to know who was taken and who is available before they made it official.
I agree with Roseman’s concepts of not being afraid to fail and that elite difference makers are important to winning, but it does make me nervous since we do not have a 2nd rd pick. We need Roseman to make the right choice badly.
Think if you are paying the kind of price to get to no.2 the only pick that will be worth it is a QB.
Tunsil is a great prospect, but there is always risk in the draft, and the reality is especially with a unit like the OL, that 2 1sts and a 3rd invested in 3 different OL players would definitely give you more depth, probably manages risk better and actually would have higher upside since 3 very good OL > 1 great one.
Is the drop off from Tunsil to Stanley or Ramsey to Hargreaves worth giving up a probable mid 2017 1st, a 3rd this year (in a super deep draft where you will be able to get talent that is comparible to late 2nd round guys in another draft) and probably more to sweeten the deal?
If the Schwartz defense goes from being good to great with two highly skilled CBs… then the addition of Ramsey could entice. I don’t think Tunsil (or any player outside of a QB or Ramsey) is worth moving up for at all this year.
It’s price vs. potential reward. And in general, I tend to side with the belief that the draft is a lottery (and therefore I want as many tickets as possible).
I see both sides, you raise some very good points. I just see Tunsil and Ramsey as more likely elite players at their positions than I do Wentz or Goff at QB. If I could have Tunsil/Johnson as my OT for the next 6-8 years or if Rowe/Ramsey become good CB, our defense would be much improved. In all candor, I’ve never believed that one needs an elite QB to win IF the other units are above average. I think the OL is the engine of the offense and pass rush + pass defense are the keys for a defense. I’d put most of the focus on making sure my OL, DE and CB were as good as possible and then allocate elsewhere from there.
Without question, if they trade up, it’s a qb.
Then my take is do not trade up because IMO neither of them is worth it. If one of them falls to #6, then maybe make a different trade up, but I’d say no to moving to #2 or 3 for the prices reported so far.
With a high probability we will be needing a QB next year (Bradford 23.5 mil cap hit) we aren’t giving up our first round pick next year for a non QB.
Is it a high probability? I thought we were on the hook for some decent coin next year on Bradford. If he performs well this year, I doubt the Eagles would move on without checking out all the options. I think Bradford can be better than he was last season and am hesitant to believe either Wentz or Goff may ever get to the level Bradford is at now.
Just look at how restricted this year with no 2nd RD pick. You build through the draft..not sell out for one. Name one team that benefitted from trading the farm for one player. Next year’s draft is supposed to be more loaded than tjis year. Why would you want less picked in 2017???!!!…I just don’t get it. Stay at 8 and take BPA. Just pay attention to the top franchises in the league. Do what day do. Trust your scouts and draft BPA.
“Next years draft is supposed to be more loaded than this year”
???
Running back and Edge are deeper next year. OL and DT are deeper this year than probably ever. The draft overall this year is deeper (Seahawks have 40% more names on their board)
“Just pay attention to the top franchises in the league”
I do, they have QBs. We do not.
The QBs next year outside Watson also seems pretty meh unless a few of the guys like Kaaya can stay healthy etc.
Add that with this potential defense and average offense and good chance we go 8-8
few people were excited about this year’s qbs last year. look at last year’s qb class, some of those guys were barely drafted.
How many of those 200 guys will the Seahawks draft?
Last year they drafted 8 players, so if they draft 40% more players this year that would be 11 players… with 9 picks so far and an alleged willingness to move out of round 1, they may very well take 11 players this year.
From an alternative perspective, they gave up 31 overall for a non-football player (Jimmy Graham). Which just kind of indicates that they didn’t have that high of a grade on any player they thought would be available at the end of round 1.
To me, this feels like an apples to oranges comparison. Eagles presumably looking to add top level talent, whereas the Seahawks feel they already have that part of the team in place and are looking to add depth/flesh out a roster and take chances on late round talent.
A franchise QB is not just Christmas… its for a decade+. If they draft Wentz/Goff and they become franchise QB’s for 10 years+ then it will be worth every penny of pretty much any price.
Eagles have flopped about since 2008, building decent teams, sometimes catching on fire for a half a season to build some buzz but done nothing with the talent they have had because they have not had any solution at the QB position. I find it amazing that after 7 years of QB purgatory where we try and recondition and renovate washed up QB’s or swing for lottoball odds on mid-late round project QB’s with serious flaws and have not achieved anything.
If the Eagles think they can develop Wentz/Goff to be the guy and the price is not ruinous (and 2×1’s and 2×3’s is not that) then go get your guy.
But its not just the above average QB (McNabb) who left since that time, its also the above average defense the Eagles used to have that has vanished. Wilson in Seattle is an above average QB, but combined with that elite defense they won a SB and got to another one. If we cannot get another above average QB this year, then I say invest more in the defense and OL who can help that new QB (whenever we get him) win.
I don’t presume to have a better feel for who is worth the price and who is not, but I am a little sad at the thought of suffering through next off season with no first round pick to argue over.
Lets hope Bradford plays well if we do this trade and are able to get a 2nd or better for him via trade in 2017.
Bradford and this years 3rd for the 2nd. Wouldn’t that be the craziest bamboozal of all time?
We would have to hope that Bradford is willing to sign an extension with the team we trade with, or it’s unlikely a team would trade for him… And for Bradford, why play ball with the team the Eagles want to trade him for, when he can just dig in and force the Eagles to cut him allowing him to be a free agent coming off a good year?
ESPN’s Adam Schefter stated Wednesday that “if it were up to the Eagles, the deal would be done today” to trade up to No. 2 overall with the Browns.
It was reported Tuesday that the two teams had agreed to the framework of a trade, which would net the Browns the No. 8 overall pick, two 2016 third-rounders, and the Eagles’ first- and third-round picks in 2017 in exchange for the No. 2 overall selection. But, according to Schefter, the price to move up from 8 to 2 wouldn’t be nearly that high. The Browns are taking their time.
They have not been linked with Tunsil or Ramsey. Maybe they are the target in a minor trade up to 5 or 6?
I am sure that they will have looked at a small trade up to 5/6 with both the Jags and the Ravens since the cost of a 3rd round +sweetner would be worth it for the right player.
I am not sure that either team would be willing to pass on either guy if they are available, Ravens generally want picks and value but it would be classic Newsome to sit there at 6 and get a top 2 talent just fall into his lap.
My biggest issue we are not going to know one way or another until 8:10pm next Thursday… if the trade is real or not since i cannot see any deal happening before the Rams pick.
So get ready for 8 straight days of endless speculation, rumor and random shit throwing until then… and that i think everyone can agree on is going to suck!
yep. and then when the time comes we’re gonna trade down to like 20 and pick connor cook or some shit
I keep having this creeping suspicion that we’re going to hear a name on Thursday night that none of us have been discussing at all.
I’m starting to think Howie is the greatest mind f*** artist of all time.
I want to know how they are going to develope a rookie QB going back to normal NFL practice style with Limited reps.. The rookie will be the #3 QB, the #3 QB in the pros barely gets any practice reps…. Are they really goung to mortgage our next two drafts on a Raw QB and then give him like 3 Practice reps per session?
..
What other option do they have? Limit Chase Daniels reps? Chase might know the offense but he doesn’t know his new Wrs and TEs… All the money we paid chase to be a backüp, and we are going to take away his reps and not prepare him for the season? Are they going to give Bradford and Chase less reps to get the rookie more reps?
I agree with you. Developing a raw QB from a school like North Dakota State who has only started for one and half years in college is no easy task. Doing so on extremely limited reps is even harder. But, perhaps that’s why they were so aggressive in signing Daniel and overpaying for his services. If the plan all along was to trade up and draft one of the top two QBs and try to develop him as the third QB, it would make sense to get a guy to be your #2 who wouldn’t need nearly as many reps as someone new to the system.
It doesn’t definitively prove anything one way or another because there’s multiple other possible explanations for why they have done what they have already with Bradford and Daniel’s contracts. But, if the plan was to draft a QB in the first round, their actions do seem to fit with that. Bradford is locked in for this year at a relatively reasonable cap hit and can be dumped next year for a modest dead money hit and Daniel is being paid at a very high rate for a backup with limited game experience and pedigree for the next 3. Daniel being familiar with the offensive system already allows them to give more reps to their 3rd QB than you typically would be comfortable with, is another coach on the field to help develop the young guy, and could hopefully hold down the fort as a starter next year if Bradford is released (after proving to not be the answer this year) and the rookie still isn’t ready. It does cover all their bases in a reasonable fashion.
Either way, I’m not too enamored with either of these QBs this year and of the two I prefer Goff over Wentz from my limited exposure to their film, so count me as someone who would not be thrilled to give up the top halves of two drafts to follow through with that plan.
Does this tweet mean that it’s a team other than the Eagles looking to move up at this price? What’s the value chart on the Broncos or Jets moving up to #2 look like? I mean… it’s Cleveland we’re talking about here.
Man, it really sounds like this might happen.
Who’s the loudmouth poster here who keeps on crying about the media making up the story that we’d trade up for a QB and that none of the QBs in this draft are worth a top-10 pick? Totes bet he’s gonna be embarrassed if this trade goes through and probably stop posting here when it does.
should leave “totes” out of your vocab… or probably stop posting..
Yeah, popular, modern colloquialisms are DEFINITELY the problem with this board.
popular?
I don’t think so
but don’t sweat it
its a 15-25 year old female term.. that is popular w the female population generally..
I think its time for the adult men of this country, who want to use the words totes, to rise up and fight.
3 ninjas unite!
It’s 2016 homie.
Phrases like “female term” are FAR more out of date and out of step with current culture than the word “totes.”
Get your gendered adjectives out of here.
enjoy your new found vocab, person.
Totes the truth the Donald!
If you are going to make that bet you totes haven’t been paying attention.
Team has to get off the an coaster. But to be at 8 and trade next year’s drdraft to Cleveland I don’t love. See rgiii and cousins. But if you think 2 guys are franchise guys I guess you have to move. Just hoping the guy we like is taken and we can sit at 8 and let Sam do his thing .
For the love of beer, please don’t trade away our 1st + 3rd in 2016 and 2017 which would basically kill my personal draft party for the next two years!!!
They’ll probably acquire picks to partly make up for it if it goes down. They’ll probably be lower and there might be large gaps though.
Right… It will make the drafts so boring. Still holding out hope that this doesn’t happen. Find it odd that we are the only team really being reported about in connection to trading the pick, when it’s likely that the Browns are talking to more teams than just the Eagles. Hopefully the jets or Bills decide to do something crazy and pay a kings ransom to move up…. Don’t think our roster is even close to good enough to give away so many top 3 round picks the next two years..
..
More then a 1st, a 3rd and a 5th would really make me depressed. Hopefully Baalke or someone stops this from happening. Would the Browns really go thru with this before the draft? I would think its more likely that they agree to framework of deals with a couple teams and pull the trigger on one during the draft.
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If we have to take a QB Hopefully it will be Wentz, Goff would really dissapoint me. Still holding on to hope that we stay at #8 and use all our picks to build the roster. Id be much more open to aggressively pursuing a QB prospect next offseason if Bradford doesn’t set the league on fire
1st and 3rd this year and next is reasonable. Not great, but reasonable.
Two firsts and two thirds, you’re saying?
Yeah, I can see that.
Not sure our roster building could afford that. We would essentially be adding one 3rd round pick to our roster this year, and one second round talent next year. I think our roster needs more work than that, it’s especially alarming because we need to hit on some top level talent which our roster lacks.
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Trading up is probably not possible for what I would be willing to pay
I’d be happier with them trading up for Tunsil or pre-degenerative-knee-reported Jack than Wentz.
Me too! Trade up, grab Tunsil, keep Bradford. I’m not a huge Bradford fan, but with two guys like Tunsil and Johnson guarding the edges he should be just fine.
Damn. I would have much more confidence giving up multiple picks to draft a QB who’s likely to succeed. Like, say, Mariota.
1. That presumes that a team is ever willing to trade out of a spot when a “super duper awesome QB” is available. (and there were plenty of Mariota is another shit spread QB people last year too)
2, Let’s do some comparisons:
2x1st
2x 3rds
vs
3x 1st
2x 2nd
2x 4th
plus
Fletcher Cox, Mycahel Kendricks, Vinny Curry, Jordan Matthews
Yeah, but… Wentz is a flavor-of-the-month kind of guy. He’s a draft hype bubble guy. Better to go late for someone like that.
From that Tweet are we to believe that Banner is NOT an Eagles fan? Tsk. Tsk.
Cleveland more than anyone should take the qb. Take advantage of the no. 2..it’s clear havingb more picks isn’t always the best .
I believe they are under pressure not to take a QB from the United Nations. The number of promising young men they have led to slaughter in the last 15 years is approaching human rights violations level.
http://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/631964/johnnyjersey.0.jpg
For someone like me who would be furious if this happens, the one comforting thought is that we would be taking a QB that the Browns DONT want. A peak at the Browns past QB history makes me take that as a good thing lol.
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If you are going to evaluate a QB, the opposite of how the Browns see it is a good way to go
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The Browns have been really bad for a long time, but this may end up being the worst team they fielded in a long time… RG3, McNown and like Cardale or Hackenberg? If they also trade Joe Thomas and Haden that roster will be really poor
Strangely enough, for someone like me who is on the fence about this deal, the one comforting thought is that you don’t want to do it and you’ll probably cry about it.
Also how I knew I was right about Nick FOles.
It’s Cleveland. They’re in the top 5 every draft! They could draft a qb next year.
It’s really weird that CLE doesn’t want to draft a QB.
They are just trying to uphold their legacy.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2016/story/_/id/15232563/the-day-browns-passed-big-ben
The theory I heard is they want to build team up first but I don’t know if it’s true they are passing up a QB yet so it does raise eyebrows. They have “moneyball guy” from Baseball…Maybe they like Prescott, Cook (localish guy) or Cardale (haha). Also OC Pep Hamilton was Kevin Hogan’s OC for a year at Stanford. None of that means that’s who they want but it’s possible.
Right, because building up the team is the hard part and the QB is the easy part?
He doesn’t have to start. But you have to get the guy in the building. Maybe they really like DeShaun Watson or Brad Kaaya and realize they’ll probably go 1-15 this year.
Given that scenario, I guess it makes sense?
I think the main theory is the QB will be set up for failure.
That makes even less sense though. You don’t have to start him.
You develop him while RG3 / Whoever takes the hits. Get him in the program now, learn the offense, learn how to lead, all those things.
I mean, it’s the Browns. So who knows. But this new regime feels different, so I feel like there are good reasons to try to unwrap what they’re thinking.
Re: I feel like there are good reasons to try to unwrap what they’re thinking. Yeah that’s why I replied. I’m not saying it’s the best way. Just what some of Cleveland people were speculating last night.
The point would be they’re using the pick for building.They would be building up by acquiring more picks and using 1st on another spot.
Or they may prefer trading back for Lynch or Cook or they might like Hogan later. They get pick(s) this year and 1st next year.
They definitely need a QB, so it’s telling they don’t want either Wentz or Goff.
It’s Cleveland. They get a top 10 pick like every other year. They can draft QBs whenever.
they’re going analytic now.. must not make sense to MoneyFootball
It’s because Wentz is not that good of a prospect.
yea why take a qb when your team sucks so bad.. need to build everywhere.. waste to have a qb now might be the MONEYFOOTBALL thoughts..
What’s the cap saving of 2nd pick vs. Bradford next 5 years , 10-12 million a year?
Factoring in a small inflation on Mariotas deal:
It will be somewhere around 4 years, $25 million.
Cap hits will be
4.5
5.5
6.5
8
option year
So Bradford is 12,500,000 and 22,500,000 (but that number is ambiguous, we have no idea what will happen). Let’s just say conservatively, Bradford gets same increases, it’s 8 million a year cap savings at a minimum.
Obviously the possibility exists they could draft a QB next year but they know (IF they can get deal done) they can do this.
The Eagles are going to be picking after 20 next year so it won’t be as easy to move up.
Hey, if Bradford looks great in practice to Pederson and Reich this week, the Eagles may decide to stay put. I kind of hope that is the case.
I think they’re going to need a little more than practice to make that kind of decision, especially when he was anointed after a nice preseason last year.
Bradford is going to look great in practice, awesome in pre season, and then he will be the MVP of the superbowl and we can finally trade him for some good picks.
if Bradford looks great in practice . . .
_________________
There no “if” involved.
Bradford may be the greatest pre-Regular Season QB in recent NFL history.
Practice is not the problem with that guy.
is it ironic that the Browns got RG3 and are going to get picks for trading out of spot #2 that someone is trading up for to get a QB, the second best one most likely?
so RG3 is going to essentially ruin the second overall pick for the Skins and now the browns because they are trading it because they like him… but at least this time the team with him is getting picks.
now all that needs to happen is the browns draft a qb in round four that eventually beats RG out of the job and the circle will be complete.
If our front office wants to return to the glory days of Andy Reid, outside of Brian Westbrook, perhaps giving up 3rd round picks wouldn’t be that big of a loss – Billy McMullen, Matt Ware, Ryan Moats, Chris Gocong, Stewart Bradley (flashed but got hurt), Tony Hunt, Bryan Smith, Daniel Te’o Nesheim, Curtis Marsh, Nick Foles (that one flash in a plan season without Reid), Derrick Burgess (did more elsewhere), Doug Brezinski (meh).
Bennie Logan, Jordan Hicks
Post-Reid selections
This.
shit we gave up our 2017 1st and our 3rd and 4th this year
ugh so many picks
totes omg
This is absurd.
yikes, without even knowing which QB will be there :-/
It is really strange to do that now
They must have a solid read on this from talking to LA
I think so too. I wonder if They disclosed their QB of choice to Howie in some manner.
so does this mean we’re definitely going for a QB? or could Ramsey or Tunsil be in play?
QB only. That is a huge haul for Cleveland. I think it will be Wentz
it certainly is a huge haul of picks
Extremely unlikely that we gave up picks in the next 3 drafts for any position besides a QB… Unfortunately
What can he say? Has to say Wentz or Goff would be fine…
no
Using the info Greg Richards posted last night about teams negotiating a discounted value for future years’ picks . . .
This trade is not as bad, point wise, as the Rams-Titans.
At least, that’s my argument — and I’m stickin’ to it.
I’m okay with this trade. Keeping the 3rd-round pick was big.
Moved back from a 1st rounder to a 4th rounder in 2017.
I might be dead by 2018 so who cares about the 2nd rounder then.
I’m okay with the compensation, especially spreading out to the 3rd year. And, we still have a 3rd in this year’s draft.
Well it means they love Wentz and technically Goff as well.
Some fans would say why does CLE want to trade him for so little if he’s that good so they couldn’t win trade to #2 now any way you cut it.
I think the silver lining is that while this diminishes 3 draft classes in terms of number of picks… if… as I suspect the Eagles can win the division in 2016 (and thereby do not have a pick in next year’s top 20)… this isn’t death row for any single draft class. So, the ability to draft and develop talent still exists in all 3 years. (even if the QB doesn’t work out)
Agree.
Great point. ‘specially if Romo’s injured again.
Squeezing into the playoffs — even at 8-8 or 9-7 — means the Eagles pick no sooner than 21st
Also — while Eagles gave up a 3rd and 4th — they still have a 3rd and 4th in this draft.
So German Eagles’ 2016 draft party can roll on.
Next year? Not so much.
Honest question:
What did you guys *think* this trade would look like?
This feels about right.
Surprised by the 2018 2nd . . . which came back to Birds as Cleveland’s 4th this year.
In theory, Birds can deal Browns’ 4th for a 2017 3rd — then deal 2017 3rd for 2018 2nd . . . And the Eagles will be even.
Not likely. But possible.
honest answer – i didn’t want them to do it because i knew it would look at least this bad. fully honest – we didn’t give up as much as i expected
It could have been so much worse
I was hoping to trade Bradford and the third and fourth and next year’s 3rd and 4th. But Howie can wheel and deal next draft too. Let’s let it play out before we judge Howie too harshly…
Think Ryan Matthews has to go, hopefully we can get another draft pick.
I figured 8, 77, and next years first was the starting point. So it’s about right.
Early Shout-Out for Belichick . . .
Who called the Eagles likely dealing up for a QB before — and after — Bradford re-signed.
___________
Love him some Goff.
May have to learn to love Wentz
Indeed.
I’ll hold my nose and eat vegetables. Because it’s better and more durable than our current cardboard cutout.
“current cardboard cutout”
______________
!!!!!!!!
OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Well, Teflon Howie is a thing of the past. He now has a crystal clear way to measure his success or failure. He lives or dies with how this pick turns out.
Absolutely, hopefully it is the right choice and we get to salute Roseman with champagne as the floats move down Broad Street
Lurie was all-in on this decision and the choice.
Accountability spread among the top 3 in the org.
ACV, how do you think this compares with the compensation Tennesee got for the 1st pick? It seems uncomfortable close to call for me
Lots of picks, fewer high picks – sold off most of our extra picks
A87:
I think this is a better deal for the Eagles than Rams deal was for them.
Obviously, the Rams had to move up 7 more places.
that’s what I mean, the factoring in the quality of the firsts,
2016:1:1
2016: 4th
2016: 6th
for
2016 1:15
2016 2ndx2
2016 3rd
2017 1st
2017 3rd
vs
2016 1:2
2017 4th
for
2016 1:8
2016 3rd
2016 4th
2017 1st
2018 2nd
I guess I just wish the Ram’s leftovers weren’t quite so expensive.
That’s great, he’ll still be fired if it fails.
http://i.imgur.com/JhEqdp7.webm
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK, i knew it was too good to be true, can’t trust HR.
Possibilities of a 1st Round pick > Actual player picked (coughWatkinscoughMSII)
We have 9 days to bask in the hope that whomever the Eagles pick will be at least as good as McNabb.
best 9 days of the season
No… once we draft someone, most of the fans will commit. This golden age of skepticism will be over, and those who question will become igglesblitz pariahs. I am treasuring this comradely feeling, because I know in a few months, it will be dangerous to step out of lockstep with the FO!
SAm(!) . . . we hardly knew yee.
Can not believe this. Not only has the entire offseason of good feeling been negated, but they managed to ruin the next 2 years too.
I want Chip back.
Unlike Chip, Howie knew how to play the game and trade up to the 2nd pick. BURN
Getting what your new coach, a former nfl QB, thinks is a potential franchise QB in his first year – not the worst thing in the world. And i am not going to pretend to know enough about Wentz to say he is not worth the picks, or at least to act like i am furious.
It’s okay, guys. Hinkie–I mean, Roseman will now trade Bradford for the Bear’s 3rd round pick on 2018 or something.
Wow we gave up a ton. Welcome to my nightmare. The one decent thing Roseman did was he was able to spread the payment over the next 3’drafts instead of just the next two drafts…. Im sick!!!!! Nothing to do now but pray Wentz is the real deal Holyfield.
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Big Wiiner is Wentz and Goff who dont have to worry about going to the Cleveland sess pool..
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The great Bradford signing now becomes stupid! If this was going to happen we should have just paid Chase to start The season and łet Wentz get #2 QB practice reps.
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Silver linning: should be easy to pay Cox now that we know that no matter how well Bradford plays he won’t get extended, will be gone next year and we have a QB on a rookie contract the next 5 years which should put an end to the talk of not paying Cox or not paying Logan….. This makes the bradford signing a huge waste. Even if he plays great what good is it? only good is it lowers the first round pick we have to give the Browns next year
That sweet sweet rookie QB deal…we’re gonna be the new Seahawks!
The great Bradford signing now becomes stupid!
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The contract signaled the Eagles viewed Bradford as a short-term solution.
And Roseman started moving up the draft ladder in February to position the Eagles for Goff/Wentz.
After reading Cho Times football outsider article I probably prefer Goff.
I have seen enough to not believe in Goff… I haven’t seen anything close to enough to say that about Wentz, so I simply a Wentz guy just by default
BATHE IN HIS TEARS
Boy, good job, Howie! You made what was essentially the same trade Chip was going to last year (and was rightfully ripped for) for a worse quarterback.
Good thing the Eagles were only one player away from the Super Bowl!
Told ALL of you Bradford wouldn’t be on the team
Dow’s at 18,450++
Just sayin’.
May apple stock is crushing it too.
I am back in the market when oil hit 36 . but you mother fucker don’t want to listen to the truth. . Read farenheight 451. That’s all you dumb mother fuckers.
Told ALL of you Bradford wouldn’t be on this team! TOLD YOU
Bradford is still on the roster and will be this year. Run along now child.
Dis you edit this? What a loser
good luck, eat that bran muffin
hahaha this is great
This muthafucka here lol
They’re drafting Zeke……………………………
when’s first pick gonna update the mock? i bet i can get an A+ now that i don’t have any picks left to get wrong
If a similar Browns site exists . . .
I’m betting the comments are nearly identical.
“Howie Roseman is an idiot” “this deal is incredibly stupid for the Eagles” “the Eagles got fleeced”?
What do you mean?
generally negative reaction
So two negatives equals a win/win?
It’s a nice haul for them, but they still need a QB. There’s always a grey lining to be found…
If they’d sucked more, they could’ve got the Titans haul.
If the Eagles end up with Wentz they should fire Howie… out of a cannon… into the sun.
Wow, comments on here in regard to trade are generally negative… Complete opposite of 24/7
Pick what you want to be negative about… If you are happy that we are getting Wentz, then you should be pissed that we paid Bradford what we paid and a month later make a trade that ensures there is nothing bradford can do to be here Longterm. If that was the case than we should have treated Bradford no different than how the Jets are treating Fitzpatrik. If you didn’t want to give up this type of value than you can be pissed about the trade…. We now have a lame duck QB making 22 mil, we have a exoensive Backüp, and we have to pay for this trade in the next 3 drafts for a kid that is in position to get minimal #3 QBs reps all summer?
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I struggle to see how signing Bradford and making this trade can be both be a good thing, so no matter what side you are on, there is reason to be AGGRIVATED, THATS at least how I see it….
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this would be a little more bearable if I thought that it was possible to trade bradford this offseason which I don’t believe can be done
Bradford gets us a mediocre record making our loss of a 1st next year more palatable since it will be in the teens or lower. No Bradford and we have a worse record and a higher pick.
If he decides to play.
If he wants to get paid next year, he will. Now, if it’s a matter of if he is healthy to play, that’s another story.
almost too stupid of a question but – did we pay bradford as a smokescreen? more likely as insurance but
Probably not,, this Wemtz trade DIDNT come out of nowhere. So much smoke about this for weeks. It was actually hard for me to believe because I found it so odd that all the reporters would find about this ahead of time.. Clearly they did, Roseman eithet DIDNT try to hide it, or didn’t do a good job of hiding it
Who cares what Bradford gets paid? It’s Lurie’s money, not ours. It’s not so much that it hurt the Eagles’ ability to sign free agents.
And Bradford signed to a deal is still an asset with value. He could be traded. If he left as a FA the Eagles would have nothing to show for it.
So after all the months of draft talk, we have to wait TIL late Friday for the Eagles to make the first selection after the inevitable QB at #2?
I feel sick
Lol
I wonder if all the fans will be pissed that we draft the #2 QB instead of the #1 RB. Crazy how different the football meta has become.
What would people think if the rams go wentz and we get Goff. I personally would rather have jalen Ramsey than either
Prefer that.
Howie already confirmed we are going QB so doesn’t matter in the end
Lol
This wasn’t a super bowl team, no one player was going to make one, it hurts but if they believe that these guys are franchise QBs then they made the right choice, hell maybe they already talked to the Rams and they know who they are getting
It’s not like we traded the entire draft a la Ricky Williams. We still have some picks, especially a 3rd. If Wentz/Goff is a hit, that’s all that matters.
Yeah we swapped our 3rd for a 4th, so basically we moved our 4th from last year to this year… Gave up next years 1 and a 2 in 2 years I’m not saying it’s great but people are acting like we are effed for 10 years lol
If this QB is the next big thing, we will forget the compensation. During RGIII’s first season, I doubt Redskins fans gave a crap. Just hope for a different outcome.
well the eagles always pick such great dudes in the first haha
Restart of Reid era. Donny here we come!
I’m dumb 2017 4th
Welp. That happened.
Eagles just traded up to number 2 pick. In trade with Browns
This is really like day 1 of draft for us. How weird.
Eagles have a good young core around the team. I can’t bring myself to dislike this trade. I always said if they really believed in these guys go get em. I don’t evaluate college guys. I’ll start to formulate real opinions in the preseason.
My mindset exactly.
i said it too, but damn if it isn’t always harder once you get to the cash register
It hurts for sure. Time to move on. Also we have to have fair our guy is going to get more picks.
I’m ok with this. Bradford plays this year, Wentz/Goff next year play to get acclimated. The focus has to be on 2018. That leaves us two free agent periods and a 3rd this year, 2nd and 3rd next year, 1st and 3rd the following year to get a WR, RB, RT, LG, SLB, and a CB. That doesn’t seem like the most difficult thing in the world.
One worries a bit about money though. Draft picks are not only a source of new talent, they are a source of cheap talent. When you start filling in all your holes with free agency it gets expensive.
We also won’t be paying 20 mil for a QB until 2020.
Well technically we are paying around 25 million this year already aren’t we? And the wage scale for a second round pick is not peanuts.
Of course if they manage to trade Bradford then that would free up a ton of money.
We have three picks in the first five rounds.
4. 1st, 3rd, 2 5ths
You’re right. We have two picks in the first four rounds.
No 3
No, we traded a 4th
and a 3rd
Yes we have a 1st, 3rd, 2 5ths.
We got back Clevelands 4th. So we have, a 1st, 3rd,4th, and 2 5ths.
Next year. We got their 2017 4th.
Bleeding green reported this years 4th.
http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2016/4/20/11470806/nfl-draft-2016-eagles-trade-browns-picks-details-philadelphia-cleveland-no-2-carson-wentz
Philadelphia Eagles receive
2016 first round pick – No. 2 overall
2016 fourth round pick
Cleveland Browns receive
2016 first round pick – No. 8 overall
2016 third round pick – No. 77 overall
2016 fourth round pick – No. 100 overall
2017 first round pick
2018 second round pick
Copied and pasted from bleedinggreennation.com
So this was wrong? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CggOO5hW8AEhzIU.jpg:large
Someone has something wrong.
Looks like it’s BGN. ESPN is reporting what the image has. http://espn.go.com/blog/philadelphia-eagles/post/_/id/16404/philadelphia-eagles-have-9-picks-in-2016-nfl-draft-including-2-third-rounders
This is why this trade sucks so badly: has one of these kinds of trades EVER worked out?
Eli Manning?
Ummm, that’s because the other team got Philip Rivers and went from 4 to 1. Eli also said he wasn’t going to play for SD.
Oh, huh. That actually is right. Thanks.
Actually the Giants traded up and have 2. But technically SD traded him after the Giants pick.
Julio?
Don’t know which Julio?
“Wentz was our most highly rated guy since…..Sam Bradford.”
Did someone actually say that?
Why is chase daniels on this team? Why his getting like $12m?
Need someone to bring along the new QB when Bradford gets traded.
Chase makes perfect sense, why the hell is bradford here? Chase fits with Bradford, and chase fits with Wentz… chase makes perfect sense, bradford makes no sense now, especially since this didmt happen overnight. Roseman talked to Miami at the combine about the trade, which means Roseman already had an idea before we signed Bradford that he would be picking #8, so if he wanted to try and trade up for a QB he should have never paid bradford. If anything he should have treated Bradford like the Jets are treating Fitzpatrik..
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As if this trade, with Bradord and Chase here is actually going to be good for our locker room… If this Wentz kid doesn’t grow into one of the best QBs in the game, God help us
Jeez dude, can you at least give them a few days before you decide that Bradford is not going to be traded?
And if he is traded, even for something as low as a 4th round pick, then wasn’t signing Bradford a good move?
LOL NFL rarely works that way..,you think I dont wish we could get something for bradford tomorrow now that we just married Carson Wentz? Id love to trade Sam but the NFL doesn’t work that way..
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Unlikely we can trade SAM next year too because the team giving up a pick will requre him to sigń an extension, so why would SAM do that and help us when he knows we will have to release him and let him become a free agent.
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I have plenty of wants, but what good are they if the NFL doesn’t work that way? You are going to be dissapointed if you think Roseman is going to Fuck Brafords super agent and trade him two months after we got them to sign with us,.. Even worse now that the bradford camp probably is pissed at us..
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Id like a pink unicorn from Christmas, should I believe is real too?
I’m praying we trade back with chip for more than we gave up on draft night
holy shit…I was thinking this exact same thing. Would be wild if the final result is that we end up with even more draft picks after essentially moving up 1 slot to # 7.
Lol I can’t imagine something that would make me more happy than that.
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Good OL Mad King, Chip kelly and is twisted warped view of Value coming to the rescue
Jesus, does this trade make sense for Goff or Wentz? Mariota I can see…
That’s my thing – these QBs aren’t as good as last year’s QBs, i guess maybe they are better than next year’s QBs?
As much as I don’t like this deal, the compensation to move up was far less than it would have been last year I believe.
Sammy B wondering why he made this deal.
$$$
HOWIE should be wondering why he made that deal. SAM signed a short term deal, it still a solid opportunity for him to play his value up for a new job…
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man this shit never works, next year’s first are you fucking kidding me?
Maybe this will be what finally gets Howie fired. Way to piss away the goodwill he’d earned.
he was doing so good too, and for a guy who seemed pretty draft savvy when it came to pick/draft values
Y’all are overreacting
If we end up with Carson Wentz I won’t be.
The Eagles are going to make the playoffs so it wouldn’t be a top 20 pick.
man that’s a 50/50 proposition at this point. a bad year my bradford or shitty injury luck will land us right back in the top 10
Gave up a lot for a that #2 pick. Looks like a move that Chip would make except he might’ve thrown in Fletcher Cox, too.
Not happy, but well, Goff/Wentz is now the savior. Go Eagles.
Rams and Eagles traded QBs last year only for them to say eff them both a year later and go trade up for QBs
I hope people don’t take it out on who we draft for a reasonable amount of time.. Give this guy a chance
Seriously. Wait until at least the 2nd day of training camp for Pete’s sake.
dude.. pete will be fine.. worry about Carson..
How you gonna take it out on a player we will barely see for the next couple of years. Dude might barely get a practice rep as the #3 QB…Gonna scream at a milk Carton with Wentz picture on the side?
Does this ever happen?
This trade makes sense if Howie was trying to figure out a way to piss away all the goodwill he’d accumulated this offseason in one move.
Stop spamming/posting like you’re texting. Put it all in one post.
I just keep finding new things to hate about this. And I’m going to be super-duper pissed if we end up with Carson Wentz.
What’s your problem with him dude? Are you smarter than everybody else?
It’s more that I”m high on Goff. I think that Wentz is overrated because of combine shit, which I don’t think is actually a great judge of what makes a great quarterback.
Basically what you are saying is you are high on Goff because you have actually seen him before and Wentz is a great unknown…. Unknown ISNT alway a bad thing
Goff has performed consistently. The combine inflates people.
Too bad it didn’t inflate Goff. That boy is skinny.
You think the scouts just watch Wentz combine and call it a day?
I liked Wentz last summer. I’ve seen 6 of his games. 4 FCS playoff games that were on youtube but got taken down. And his opener this year and most of FCS Champ game this year. He’s a smart QB with talent but lacks experience.
I didn’t think he was top 2 pick but my job isn’t on line. My opinion literally wasn’t on combine one bit. I saw some stuff but I cared more he didn’t look bad.
I do think interviews and classroom carry some weight which only they can judge. I haven’t seen Gruden’s QB camp.
I get it, it just makes thread bad . So open a post and put it in one or at least not 20 1 sentence posts.
Haha, fair enough.
Your going to be pissed if we end up with Wentz? What else are you expecting to happen at this point?
Goff?
This just put a TON of pressure on Roseman, the scouts and the coaches ability to develop talent… After what we paid for Wentz, anything short of a Decade long Franchise QB will make him a bust, and now Roseman weakened his ability to build the team thru the draft these next few years, so he is under more pressure to hit on 4th and 5th round picks, and it puts pressure in the coaches to develop the mid round pick.
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Normally I would say this adds major pressure to a GM, but we aren’t actually sure that there is anything Roseman could do to get Lurie to fire him
Lurie’s all in on this deal.
And the QB they select.
Bottom line . . . you’re right that Roseman is teflon.
boy when was the last time lurie went all in on one guy and that bit us in the ass?
I’m not so sure Roseman is teflon. If Wentz is a franchise QB, he’ll be fine. If he’s anything less, he’ll be fired.
insane move that will make or break his tenure as defacto gm, so salty about the ’17 first and ’18 second
We’ve been so good since McNabb went downhill.
and the way we’ll turn that ship around is by giving away the resources to build a team through young/cheap talent? you know, like ever other prudent salary cap era team ever
We’ve had one QB in 50-60 years and look at the teams. Jaws got us to SB but he’s not exactly considered a great QB. And moves will happen, it’s not the end of building a team.
You realize it’s only two picks this year. Who knows what happens next year. Who knows what we get for Bradford. Calm down Francis
Not really. There’s no way that Howie makes a deal to get a QB unless the head coach, a former quarterback, is on board 100%. If they take a QB and he doesn’t work out it’s going to be Pederson’s head that rolls.
Yeah cause there is anyone dumb enough to believe first time HEADCoach had more power than HOWIE
Been saying this all along but assuming howie wouldnt pull trigger per risk. This is great. Gotta gamble on qb this high in draft. Wont say a bad word about howie again
The one thing that hasn’t made me put my head thru a wall yet is that Roseman was able to spread the compensation out over the next 3 drafts. It would have killed me if the compensation was just spead out over the next two drafts..
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Wish we could have kept one of our 3rd rounders. AND pick #100, but it’s spilled milk at this point
We do still have our original 3rd round pick
If this backfires, Roseman is toast.
If Bradford and co. wasn’t successful, Roseman is toast.
Why are you even here?
I thought this was all “made up by the STUPID MEDIA!!!”?
a mind at war with itself
good move for Cleveland
they probably get a top 5 pick next year with Eagles 1st
Bradfords only value now is to make sure he plays well enough to not give tbe Browns a top 10 pick.. A 22milliln dollar lame duck QB, now I think I have seen it all
Bradford gets hurt and Eagles win only 4 games.
Cleveland might get the top two picks and the Eagles have nothing to build with.
On the bright side, there’s plenty of room in Cleveland for you to become a fan!
Next year’s #1 is already spent so it doesn’t matter where it lands.
Negadelphian right from Philly.com!
We got nothing to build with regardless what our record is its not like the first round pick we owe is top 10 protected like in the NBA.. We don’t have a first round pick regardless, don’t care what the Browns do
means almost all of my attention watching games will be on the defense next year – and maybe how the wr’s develop.
Most of my attention is always on the defense. I like offense like everyone, but the defense is my passion
Draft Laremy Tunsil!
Lol that would be so awesomely bad, like Bryan Colangelo type bad, but it would be so much fun..
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The Eagles would have the best OT tandem in the NFL for the next 10 years. Any QB could play behind that line.
My worst nightmare is Tunsil getting to Dallas, uhhhg, just preventing that would be worth not hearing about the greatest line of all time being in Dallas together for a decade.
They aren’t taking Tunsil? Are you really worried about that? They have to go defense
He wasn’t supposed to be there to take. I think the odds are long, but they’ve steadily gotten shorter all off season.
They have NO PASS RUSH, which makes their weak secondary even worse… They got the kid from LSU to eventually move to tackle. If Tunsil falls to #4 Id be pretty damn surprised to see them take him…
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I think this traded with the Brown will mean that Tunsil becomes a Jaguar unless the Ravens leap frog the Jags to steal him… Maybe Ravens take Tunsil at #4, Dallas takes zeke or Bosa at #6
well, except sanchez…
The Browns had Joe Thomas, Alex Mack, Mitchell Schwartz and Joel Bitinio.
How’d that work?
Well enough that they almost held their water in one of the most competitive divisions year in and year out in football. (sideways glance) pfffft… ok I couldn’t keep a straight face.
really well, actually – they got our pick
And if whoever we take is a franchise QB and they still don’t have one they lose.
like you i hope so. lotta eggs in that basket
And if it doesn’t in 3 years it’ll be a new regime, we’ll probably be top 10 and have a shot at another QB anyways.
Yeah and we will still be paying for that line 3 drafts from now… Give me all those picks back and I’ll build you the Great Wall of china
Parallels to the Andy Reid era are starting to get scary. Really wanted to pick a QB #2. Hopefully, it works out as well or better than last time. I think what you’re seeing the influence of the HC, OC and QB coach (two of which were former NFL QBs)… they believe they can take Carson Wentz and in 1-2 years, turn him into Andrew Luck.
either way this works out for us it still makes the next couple drafts 100x less fun
you can enjoy this video instead
https://youtu.be/rsWY6BOIO9I
hahaha i fucking love billy b
I honestly think this is why so many people hate this trade.
I get that draft day (weekend) is a lot of fun, but so is winning football games and having a real QB.
TATE still up lol. Thought it’d be crashing.
Best case scenario is that Sam Bradford plays well, leads PHI to playoffs while Wentz develops under him, Daniel, Frank Reich and Doug Pederson.
He’ll definitely have trade value in that case, particularly given the way his contract was structured. Team acquiring him would also have ability to place franchise tag on him.
In this scenario, the hard decision would be do you go for a Super Bowl in the 2017-18 season with Sam, or do you trade him for value and start Wentz if he’s ready. Would be a good problem to have.
This was a super solid trade, sorry you guys can’t nerd out over an extra 3rd and 4th round pick, but we need a fucking franchise QB and this was the best opportunity we’ve had.
nice work
Agreed but even in a best-case scenario for this to a legit Super Bowl contender in 2 years seems like a stretch given what they just gave up & the current roster.
This trade strikes me as a long-term play with that goal (Super Bowl contender) more like 3-5 years out.
Yeah, I mean a lot depends on the QB position.
The NFL is weird. I certainly didn’t think the Panthers were Super Bowl contenders this time last year.
Amen! Chuuuuuch!
I’ll say this – Roseman anted up and put up all his chips in the center of the table.
This move though is still a bit confusing in the context of some of the other moves they made this offseason.
this is a very good point, it was like chip trading away mccoy and then signing murray
At 1/4 of the price
pretty heavy cash prices
How so? They will have fewer young players from the draft in the years to come so it was important to sign guys to long term deals and bring in new talent via free agency.
Generally agree including locking up Ertz and Johnson longer-term.
More along the lines of Daniel and some of the other holdovers including Graham and Barwin. Doesn’t seem like the Eagles are willing to take a real step back & have a rebuilding year or two. Personally, that is what I would have preferred they do if they traded up for a QB.
**All the chips, except for the one he flushed down the toilet just before the end of the season.
Two undeniable (to me) things from this trade: 1) Bradford is gone by 2018. His current contract is not an audition to be the Eagles QB long-term, it’s an audition to play for another team. He’d pretty much have to be Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers’s love child to force the team to forget about all the picks they gave up in this trade; 2) If Bradford gets injured this year, the Browns are getting an absolute steal, and may end up with the better QB (using the Eagles’ very high 1st next year) out of the trade.
Denver needs a QB now. If the Eagles can move him now I see no advantage in keeping Bradford around for a year when they already have their mentor QB in Daniels.
Is it even possible to make that deal, even assuming everyone is eager to do so? From what I understand he is an untradeable commodity until 2017
As I understand it, they’ve already paid half of his 11 million signing bonus so they would lose that, but the second half is not due until September 1st so they’ve got over 4 months to trade him.
Unlikely we trade him now or next year, unfortumately. Gonna eventually cut him after the season……Id trade him for a pick tomorrow if it was possible, but I don’t think it can happen
The browns are not getting a better qb on paper then wentz unless they pick top 2 again next year
1. If Bradford misses a significant portion of the season to injury, that’s within the realm of possibility; 2. Depends entirely on the quality of prospects that come out next year. It’s possible that by this time next year, we’re talking about a Luck/RGIII or Mariota/Winston (all of whom I like better than Wentz, as prospects) draft. No way to know until then.
What number will Mariota wear with the Eagles?!
I don’t know how to feel, so I’ll just wait and see. I’ve been excited before to be let down (Chip Kelly anyone?) and I’ve been disappointed to be pleasantly surprised (Andy Reid?).
Moves are made and not, but fortune favors the bold. If they believe in this guy, go for it. I still feel the same way with Chip -> you take chances to be great – not average like 27 other teams.
I was more excited to move up and get a QB under Chip. I’m not excited about either one of these qb’s….
One positive is that there is virtually zero incentive to not be a competitive team next year. If they aren’t competitive in 2016 it will be very tough to swallow.
Based on our schedule i wouldn’t be surprised if we were picking top 15 next year.
Classic mistake to assume good teams last year will be good this year, and bad teams last year won’t be good this year. Schedule in April is almost meaningless.
not completely. i mean to some extent sure, but i’d put a 20 on the pats being better than the browns, and 40 on the cards being better than the niners
Bet you wouldn’t have put that 40 on the Cards after 2013. No one would have. Everyone would have been wrong.
Did you think the Jets would be as good as they were in 2015? What about the Bills?
Bet you didn’t think the Falcons would crush the Eagles week 1 2015. No one did.
Bet you didn’t think TB would be competitive in 2015. Did you bet that Steelers and Ravens would both miss the playoffs? That CAR would almost go undefeated? That the 12-4 2014 Cowboys would regress to 4-12 the next year?
It’s all a crapshoot. Too much parity, too many injuries, and far, far too much luck in this beautiful game of football.
yes . . . like i said, to some extent. but to claim you can’t take ANYthing from last year is a stretch. slightly off-point but the eagles lost 26-24 to the falcons. that’s not a crushing, and i’m pretty sure at least a few people had us losing that one.
Even Top 12 wouldn’t surprise me. Struck me as a 6-8 win team with their current roster and schedule a week ago when it was released
With little help coming from the draft now, maybe 6-7 wins.
yup
you mean cleveland is picking in the top 15
I’d be VERY surprised considering the Eagles don’t have a 1st round pick next year!
If they really want to replicate the Reid regime, Pederson should be a player/coach this season and possibly even start some games next year.
so paying Bradford all that money was plan B? lot of money for a short timer…
Still cheaper than the franchise tag.
but what B dizzle and chase daniels. Why give chase so much $?
Daniels is to Wentz as Pederson was to McNabb.
chase daniels is our next HC?!
2031 head coach of the Eagles…
Daniels has never made a ton of sense
It is a very Cap-friendly contract. Also very trade-friendly
Roseman and Miami started working on the trade during the combine, so before we signed Bradford HOWIE had an idea he would be moving up to #8. So if he thought he was going to try and trade up for a QB , signing SAM and Chase was really pointless, actually it’s counterproductive, as far as I’m concerned, Signing Chase makes sense whether you are signing Bradfird or Trading up for a QB… If Roseman already knew that he wasn’t committed to evaluating if Bradford can be our future next year, there was no reason to pay him 22mil or Franchise him,.. How the Jets treated Fitzpatrik is how you treat a stop gap who you ARENT giving a chance to earn a future with your franchise.
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If we were going to try and get a young Qbs should have paid chase, let SAM walk, try to trade up for a QB, or move up to round 2 for a QB as a worst case scenario…
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There is no reason for Bradford or Jason Peters to be here now that we just married a young raw QB to be our franchise QB.. We aren’t winning a SUPERBOWL with SAM or Peters this year, so Both should be gone. Shouldn’t have given peters money to Osmele or some other yoûng FA Lineman that can still help us by the time the Wentz era starts..
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Having both SAM and Chase means that our Raw expensive North Dakota investment will barely get reps as a #3
Your failure to understand simple and straightforward concepts is breathtaking.
Jaws is saying Wentz had a Wonderlic score of 40 (15th highest) and a 4.0 in school. Says extremely intelligent about football.
Rather have someone who is smart but won’t overthink things. Fitzpatrick got a perfect score. Still makes tons of boneheaded mistakes! You just need a 20 to prove you’re above average and can learn.
Jaws mentioned he’s been in a pro-like offense, and throwing to WRs that run like a 4.8, so it’s not like they were the reason he looked good.
I gotta watch more of him. I’ll admit that I’ve been elitist and dismissive about his small school pedigree. I don’t like Goff’s Trumphands, but he is a smooth QB to watch.
Weren’t Big Ben and Montana small school QBs? Also Flacco?
Notre Dame is small in every respect but football.
Didn’t know montana went there. There is another QB from a small school, so let me google.
McNair.
Thank you. It’s tough, but I’m supposed to be working hard right now.
He was also on a team that was head and shoulders above the rest and had a dominant running game.
It’s not about IQ, but about the ability to process a lot of information quickly. I don’t know what Magic Johnson’s or Steve Nash’s IQs are, but what you want is the thing they have.
One part of an IQ test is processing speed. How you process visual information quickly and accurately. I give IQ tests for a living. 🙂
If you look over to the right on this webpage slightly… you see Tommy’s other site’s feed: Eagles Blog. “KellyStrator Week 1” and “Appreciating Tom Coughlin” I think about sums up how things have been going with this team.
Buckle up pansies, it’s time to spend a high pick on a QB and get back in the habit of being playoff contenders each year.
So the consensus best player in the upcoming draft may not go until 4. I hope San Diego takes him.
Why is Sam Bradford here and we’re still going to draft a QB at 2?
Path Dependence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_dependence
Some of that, a bit more of Sunk Cost
Maybe because the deal only just happened?
The Eagles can sit back and take offers for Bradford now. There is no rush.
I genuinely think they want to try and let him play this year and maximize his value.
For one trading him right now is cost prohibitive.
Second he’s got pretty low trade value. Pie in the sky you’re getting what? Swapping a 6 for a 4?
But how often do you get a Super Bowl champion that desperately needs a QB? They’ve actually got Mark Sanchez as #1 on their depth chart at the moment. Are they going to waste the team they’ve built on Mark Sanchez?
I think they’re going to say Connor Cook is good enough to be a game manager, QBs didn’t carry our team last year, run a Kubiak system, with lots of stretch/boot and we can score enough. I’m not exactly going to get fired if we don’t buy mediocrity incarnate.
If you don’t have a QB give yourself the most opportunities to find the right guy until you do. The Seahawks traded a 2nd and 3rd round pick for Charlie Whitehurst, signed JP Losman, Tavaris Jackson, and Matt Flynn, and drafted Russell Wilson in the span of three offseasons until they found their franchise QB.
We seem to be doing the same thing only with higher pedigree players that have cost us a lot more to obtain.
I blame the Rams for causing this. God Dammit Les Snead
My god, three years ago we were trying to talk ourselves into Nick Freaking Foles as a franchise QB.
This is a great day!
He did seem much better than Kolb.
If you project our 1st round pick in 2017 to become another Marcus Smith II then this trade doesn’t hurt so much.
Or Danny Watkins, or Nelson Agholor, or …
Mentioning Nelson with Danny in one breath is quite harsh, don’t you think?!
Danny had a better rookie year than Nelson did. Just a reminder that Nelson Agholor averaged less than 2 catches per game played in 2015.
True. There’s still hope for Agholor but it would be hard to argue that he had a better rookie year than Watson, or just about anybody other than Marcus Smith II.
Jury is still out on Agholor.
In the end it’s all about the QB. If we get a franchise QB then nobody will care about the cost. If the QB sucks then it was a horrible trade where they gave up the world.
The bad news is though – and I have said this before – basically my next two draft parties will be cut short or non-existent. 🙁
Risking two boring draft parties for maybe one awesome Super Bowl party? I’ll take it.
but maybe you can actually cheer in january for the next decade.
win some, lose some
Guys, I just found a bright side to all of this from the Deadspin comments: “This all but guarantees that whomever the Eagles pick, that the Browns basically abandoned, will be awesome, because God hates the Browns.”
Did we do a trade with Browns before? Who’d we get w/ that pick Jordan Matthews?
They got Manziel, we didn’t want Manziel….. They don’t want Wentz, we want Wentz……as long as we feel the opposite about a QB than the Browns do, I like our chances
..
The other silver linning is its now easy to pay Cox and Logan since we have a QB on a rookie contract for 5 years, and we can dump Jason Peters salary after this season.
..
This is a team that passed on Big Ben IIRC.
Our Lockeroom probably isn’t too happy today
Less rookies to compete with?
idk man
Got a lame duck qb, hard to be a leader when everyone in the building knows you’re only there for a year.
Whole season really blown for guys like JP – if they want to see it that way.
I can’t believe we aren’t going to draft a OT or any backup OL.
Well its a deep draft at OL so that third better be a good one.
77- Joe Haeg T/G NDSU
5- Nick Kwiatowski LB WVU
5- Joe Thuney C/G NC State
6- Jakeem Grant WR TTU
7- Tyrone Holmes DE Montana
7- Derrick Kindred S TCU
NDSU!!!!!
Tuerk at 77? Is he even ready for the season?
I’d be ok with that but yea he may have to be brought along slowly. Whereas Haeg is a better version of Conklin.
Im hoping Schwartz is proficient at developing late rounders. If the Eagles can get 2-3 of the remaining picks to be above average starters, the trade is a wash anyway.
there are some UDFA DTs he’ll like. We have enough depth at CB that it shouldn’t be awful. Get a developmental LB and a small school fastball sub rusher and we’re ok.
that’s what I was thinking. They can still get a decent OL prospect, hopefully an eventual starter at guard.
How does it blow for Peters? The eagles are not going to the super bowl anytime soon, with Bradford at the helm or a rookie.
It’s Peter’s last year, realistically, now it’s not even a year. Nor do we have a replacement for LJ on the right side.
Dennis Kelly, bruv!!!! lol
Common sense…. Just look at what all our players say every time they are asked what they want the eagkes to do with the pick. You almost always hear some variation of “someone who can help us next year”.. Add in they fact that the many of our players strongly supported SAM, probably not a stretch to assume things aren’t as peachy in the locker room as they were yesterday. Not complicated or anything rare… Most NFL players would see it that way, it’s not something unique to the eagles players
God. You just…..make stuff up.
ESP?
Did they try to get through a few of your posts?
Of course they’re happy. Because we’re Philly and we fight.
All I know is they better build this team up so when Wentz starts next year he will have the support needed to succeed and the team can actually win something. How they are going to do that with a small number of picks left, I’m not sure, but I hope they have a plan
OL in 3rd. Toys in 5th (WR and RB).
I bet that Peyton Barber guy (RB) Tommy highlighted the other day will be available in the 5th round.
I was hoping for Prosise in the 4th. I doubt he lasts until the 5th. But who knows? Howie might not be done moving around.
I figure we will lose another one of our picks this year for the patented Howie special of acquiring a higher round pick next year.
My money is on Defensive Tackle or Linebacker in round 3
If your money was really on the things you say on this forum you would be a pauper.
Unfortunately for you im Ridiculuosly wealthy, but thanks for asking. 😉
THIS is the best thing you’ve ever posted here.
Hahahahaha.
Wow.
Well deserved UPvote
I wouldn’t bank on DT in the 3rd. Too deep of a position to go there early, especially with fewer picks now. Has to be LB or OL.
OL just as deep and I see DT as a bigger need
All we need is a QB who can throw competently and receivers who can catch.
If true, then why are we investing all these resources in the QB position? If all he needs to do is throw competently, they should be able to find that in a easier and cheaper way.
I was being facetious. We don’t have the type of defense that will afford us just to have a competent QB. We need a potential superstar.
Sorry, jumped a bit too quickly on that one 😉
Invest heavy OL. Try to find a WR that can provide some specific skilset on day 3 (vertical threat, red zone jump ball guy) and bring in a bunch of UDFA RBs and the backfield should be competent.
We also have a ton of money coming off the books next year between Peters and Bradford.
Busy FA next year as well. Maybe another corner or OL if we don’t have anyone this year.
I don’t think it will be a bonanza, but a couple guys of similar profile to this year to paper over any cracks and then use the rest to extend Cox and Matthews, maybe Logan.
Good thoughts, but isn’t it fairly understood that FA is not an effective way to build a roster? It can be a supplement at certain key positions where spending extra cap space makes sense, but the core of the team should be drafted and developed.
See this offseason. Just signed a boatload of home guys.
Exactly, they had to be drafted first and then developed. If we keep giving away picks and/or fail to make the right choices, then we’ll have to fall back on FA like we’ve done several times in recent years and which almost never works…
And it would be. QB, the WRs, most of the OL, (surely they aren’t giving another RB big money). Hick, Kendricks, Cox, the DEs, Rowe are all homegrown.
But we have money to paper some cracks and extend our own.
If Wentz pans out, which we have no idea about now, then you’d have the starting QB, 1-2 WR (depends if Huff and Agholor pan out, I suspect one of them busts), TE and 2 OL (Johnson & Kelce). The other WR, OL and all the RB are via trades or FA.
Defensively, you got both starting DE and a backup (Smith), the DT, an assortment of CB we do not know if they pan out and 2 starting LB. The S, other CB, LB, DE (Barwin) are via trades or FA.
So after looking through the roster, we could have that core homegrown if we are able to develop more of the drafted talent we have now and will get in this draft.
FA is a great way to paper over certain areas of a roster, provide depth at certain positions, and occasionally land a difference maker. It fails when you overpay and give top of the market money to either fading stars (Asomougha) or players that simply are not that good and should never be paid at the top of the market (Maxwell).
Look at some of the best teams in the league over the last 5 years. They all use FA very well. You have to to have a truly elite roster.
Denver:
Peyton Manning
Emmanuel Sanders
Wes Welker
Evan Mathis
DeMarcus Ware
Aqib Talib
TJ Ward
DRC
Seattle:
Marshawn Lynch
Cliff Avril
NE:
Blount
Dion Lewis
Danny Amendola
Derrelle Revis
Dan Connolly
Aqib Talib
Carolina:
Ted Ginn
Greg Olsen
Micheal Oher
Jared Allen
Kurt Coleman
Cortland Finnegan
Roman Harper
Charles Tillman
GB:
Charles Woodson
Tramon Williams
NO:
Drew Brees
Jeremy Shockey
Lance Moore
Anthony Hargrove
Scott Fujita
Jonathon Vilma
Darren Sproles
Curtis Lofton
Arizona:
Carson Palmer
Jared Valdheer
Paul Fanaika
Dan Williams
Larry Foote
John Abraham
Jermaine Gresham
Sean Weatherspoon
Dwight Freeney
Red Bryant
Mike Iupati
Lamar Woodley
Not all these FAs played together on the same teams on the same years, but a lot of them were integral players in their time on these consistently good teams. Some of these players are easily the best players on those teams. So you can’t ignore FA all together. We have a good enough base of players that adding an impact guy like Charles Woodson was a FA for Green Bay or Marshawn Lynch was for Seattle, Greg Olsen for Carolina, DeMarcus Ware for Denver, Derrelle Revis for NE could make a huge difference. Getting some bargain bin production from a guy like an Emmanuel Sanders, ect really strengthens a roster.
Agreed. I’ll add that Wentz seems to have everything, but is a good coach away from being a Franchise QB. Pederson was well-regarded as a QB coach, hope he is up for this.
Hope Pederson, Reich, and DeFilippo are ready.
And Daniels, who is really just another QB coach who happens to wear a uniform.
Won’t fail due to lack of coaching, that’s for sure.
Gotta find him some reps first… Hope the media asks Roseman about how they plan on developing him with #3 QBs getting so little reps. I assume they have considered this and come up with some plan for it..
That is the wild card many forget. Roseman can do all the great drafting and signings, but if our coaching staff cannot develop the talent and get the best out of them it will not work. This is a huge vote of confidence in Pederson, Reich and DeFilippo – hopefully, like you said, they are up to the task. A young QB with very little experience coming from a Div 1-AA school is going to need a lot of work.
His brain is what will determine if he will be a good pick… You don’t get drafted in round 1 without a physical skillset that can be successful… Development of his QB brain will determine how good he will be
What we learned today:
– Sammy is here for another year, but most likely not beyond that.
– Jason Peters is not going to get traded or cut.
– Carson Wentz has bigger hands than Goff.
– We could have drafted Brian Dawkins Jr. with the second round pick in 2018.
– We have no shot at drafting WR Cordell Broadus with our possible #32 pick next year after he has quit football.
– Somewhere Joe Banner smiles.
– Germany is still the favourite to win the EURO cup. .
– Last time Eagles picked a QB at #2 it worked out quite well.
– Win the day [Chippah].
If Wentz ends up in Blake Bortles territory in terms of talent at the pro level, would you all be okay with the compensation?
Anyone who says no is a moron.
*Quickly deletes post*
Uuuuh considering how Blake is in his second year easily yes
going into his third year… fun fact: he’s the same age as Carson Wentz.
The one thing that gives me pause about Wentz. He’s not Brandon Weeden, but he’s not young either.
No, of course not, but if he ends up a really good franchise QB are all the people on here who hate the trade gonna say they were wrong, or will they be driving the bandwagon?
It’s a QB league, we don’t have one, you gotta take a risk to get one.
My bad, don’t know why but when I read the question I read it as Blaine gabbert… Too much Chip on the brain. Bortles has a very promising future, so yes at the year two point.
Book is still out on Bortles, but I think it’s fair to label him as promising so far
..
Trust him more than I trust Teddy, or the Tyrod taylor kid
Absolutely, if Bortles continues to develop — if Bortles’ current play is the limit for our QB, then no, not so much.
If we get a true franchise QB out of this, it’s definitely worth it. And if Bradford gets better, by the same token the second rounder we were missing this year is also worth it.
This very much makes me regret the Chase Daniel signing, which was the one signing I didn’t like. He is for sure gone next year. Not sure we can get something back, or will just have to release him and pray the cap hit isn’t too much (i.e. some team signs him and we get the offset back).
Will make for a very interesting season when a QB struggles… fans may get impatient fast. Presumably Bradford will be starting this year, and the new QB sitting — but it gets hard when you give up so much to get a guy. It’s hard enough drafting a guy at #8 — it’s quite another when you give up to 1st rounders. And yet another future second. We screamed at the 2nd we gave up for Bradford, yet we will be out next year’s first and the following year’s second — if the new QB turns out to just be a good backup, then we will have a very painful two years (unless Bradford becomes “the guy”).
I actually think Daniel is here for the duration of his contract. The negative effect on the cap is really only felt in this year, because of Bradford being here as well on a hefty contract. But, a cap hit of $8million, while on the way high end of back-up compensation isn’t all that bad when the other guy is on a rookie contract. Plus, Daniel’s dead money if cut next year is $7M, meaning we only save $1M if he’s cut. Then we have to go sign another back-up QB which will cost around $4-5M. So, we can keep him as the backup for an $8M cap hit or we can cut him and end up spending anywhere from $10-13M on the backup spot when you account for his dead money as part of the cap hit. The only way we save anything at that point is if we sign a backup QB for less than $1M which would give us a pretty crappy backup and minimal savings. Given that many scouts have recommended that Wentz should sit up to two years, Chase gives you a reasonable alternative for a starter next year if/when Bradford is released and Wentz still needs time to develop.
Offset language only applies to guaranteed money that was supposed to be due to the player after he was cut. If no offset, and player signs with another team he gets that guaranteed money from us AND the money he signed for with the new team. If there is offset whatever he gets from the new team is deducted from what we owe him still in the year we cut him. Daniel had $12M guaranteed in his contract (a $3M signing bonus, a $3M roster bonus this year, his first year salary $1M and $5M of his year two salary guaranteed). Even if he signed somewhere for $5M that year and we recouped all that he’d still have a dead cap hit of $2M. Then we go sign another backup for $4-5M and we’ve saved only $1-2M by cutting him. It’s just not worth all the hassle and getting another QB in here who’s not as familiar with the system for a relatively measly savings. Daniel will for sure be here next year as the back-up as well as the potential starter if Wentz still isn’t ready.
If a guy you spend two first round picks on isn’t good enough to be the backup in year two… not sure that is the right pick.
Daniels’ dead money is 7 million… until he gets signed by another team, in which case whatever money he earns (up to 5 million) the Eagles would get back. That might be part of the calculus of his deal… being able to cut him, or trade him. Though his salary might be too steep for a trade, and unless he earns more than 5 million from a team, he might as well save his new team the money and collect the 5 million from the Eagles (minus a vet minimum contract).
The Eagles could do something similar with Bradford — another team would pay him more than $4 million in 2017, so if the Eagles cut him, they probably “only” end up with 5.5 million of dead money. But they might be able to trade him and get something good back as well…. the other team would “only” owe him 17 million or so for one year.
So maybe they are counting on a Bradford trade, and Daniels to again back up next year. But at the moment, Bradford has a 22.5 million cap hit next year, and Daniels 8 million, and a #2 overall pick will add several million more. That is simply way too much for all of them to be back, unless Bradford renegotiates the deal (which would be for more years).
HeeeEEeeE HAAaaWwwW
StoOpId MeDia tinK daT PeoPlE gunn trAdE InTO top 2 FoR QBs.
Chill fam
hello friends
A question for all the commenters who “know” that Wentz is the QB the Eagles will get: Did Rams announce their choice?
earnie ladd
No but the Eagles know who they are picking… Howie made that pretty clear at points in the press conference.
Lot of media people i respect say that the Rams are taking Goff, and the Rams have historically been pretty open with media access for national reporters… is some of the reason why their front office has survived so long, they have a lot of ‘friends’ in the media.
All the national guys are saying it’s Goff. They just haven’t announced it yet. The Eagles know for sure, the public doesn’t
Do you really think the Eagles know for sure?
I don’t think they make this move if they weren’t.
It’s funny we were just discussing this yesterday. I think their relationship is good enough that they know, but wasn’t sure. Same conference could make them more secretive?
Rams are picking 1-1. No one is jumping them.
As long as no one leaks it to the public, for purposes of catastrophic event happening to their guy, they don’t care if another NFL GM knows.
i’d freaking hope not!
Yes.
Goff and Wentz share the same agent. Eagles know.
Looking forward to Tommy’s post about this trade…
https://twitter.com/FakeWIPCaller/status/722850936616423426
“…While his arm strength is OK, he can still make all the throws and he can make them with accuracy. His ability to escape pressure and pick up first downs with his feet will be yet another check mark in his favor. Wentz is still in a developmental phase after just two years at an FCS program, but has the mental and physical building blocks of a future, franchise quarterback.”
Sounds like a sure thing to me.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/carson-wentz?id=2555259
Re: QB Scouting Reports from Bob McGuinn – Milw Journal Sentinal
McGinn puts out great pre-draft summaries based solely on tid-bits from scouts.
Here’s a link to his article today on QBs.
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/rating-the-nfl-draft-prospects-quarterbacks-b99704527z1-376408321.html
Here’s Patrick at Eagles Rewind
Goff:
https://eaglesrewind.com/2016/04/15/jared-goff-scouting-report/
Wentz:
https://eaglesrewind.com/2016/04/17/carson-wentz-scouting-report/
Just curious how history says this will work. I can only remember the bad results. Still feel strongly if this is your Peyron Manning you have to go get him.
I think like two QBs drafted in the top 2 since ELWAY won a Super Bowl or something uninspiring like that… Fortunately those past failures have nothing to do with Wentz, goff or whoever we get.,,,, but history probably isn’t on our side
7 times QBs have gone 1-2
2015: Winston- Mariota
2012: Luck- RG3
1999: Couch- McNabb
1998: Manning- Leaf
1993: Bledsoe- Meyer
1971: Plunkett- Archie.
And only once, 1-2-3 . . .
With former Oiler-Raider-Eagles Dante Pastorini — from Santa Clara — going 3rd behind Plunkett and Manning.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dan+pastorini
erroneous…Couch-McNabb-Akili Smith
Twice
I thought Moses went third that year you old fart 😛
Best post I’ve seen so far about history is the one that says this trade will definitely work because God hates the Cleveland Browns.
Wow. This trade was genius! Had not thought about it like that.
SO — if Cleveland wasn’t interested in a QB — who did the Eagles have to jump up in front of to get him? SF?
Or dallas possibly.,.. But that assumes the Browns would have passed on a QB if they couldn’t trade out of #2…
of I guess the Eagles wanted to beat out another team trying to move up? even thought they lost out with the Titans
I guess, I didnt believe this would Happen, so im still trying to make sense of it too
It was obvious from when they got RGIII. You couldn’t trade up to get Winston or Mariota, because they were credible QB prospects. This is all about the white quarterback thing.
Wha? Because Philly just doesn’t do QB’s of color right?
It’s hard for me to think otherwise. Wentz or Goff are really marginal. I mean, Tannehill, absurdly, is a more obviously first round QB than Wentz, and Goff has some pretty serious limitations, in my mind.
I think it has everything to do with the fact that most potentially good QBs out the next few years aren’t white, and that one of them, Falk, definitely has issues, and Rosen might be for a while.
I basically see Goff as a Matt Ryan or Mark Sanchez level prospect. I do not see him as likely to be even as good as Sam Bradford, though he gets that comparison.
Oh, Sam Bradford had higher upside than Ryan, not that he is better than what Ryan used to be like.
I think they think 2017 QBs not as good as 2016 QBs so then you’re waiting until 2018 for a qb and Doug could be out by then. Think this is all part and parcel of getting a new QB/GM*.
Watson is the only good player we know of from before the season starts. He’s a bit on the small side. Dunno for 2017, though.
The striking thing is the whole concept of “we don’t think there are going to be any good QBs in the next few years, so we’ll draft more of a question mark this year, and give up crazy number of picks”. How the hell would anyone know who’s going to be good in 2016, let alone 2017? This is why I’m thinking that both the declining amount of refinement and race is playing a part in this decision–which is still a terrible one.
That’s all fine comparing draft classes. The only context that matters is this year, though. I don’t think it’s fair to say white privilege is the reason. QB privilege in general, sure. The top QB prospects tend to go near the top of the draft, regardless of how they measure up to previous draft classes. Maybe these would have made it further down, but the Rams pressed the issue. Now QB’s will be going 1 and 2.
Of course Sam Bradford has a higher upside than Matt Ryan. Sam is like 1/128 Native American, where as Ryan is just white. The only reason that Sam has failed to reach his potential is because the white establishment in the NFL will only allow him 127/128 of a truly fair chance.
Chips klu klux klan culture rubbed off on Roseman… I think you have uncovered the great mystery, well done..
..
Hopefully they wise up and stop their racist ways and take Cardale with the #2 pick… #BlackQBlivesMatter…. No one can fool Shah
whatever…
You realize that had we had Tyrod Taylor, we probably got a better season than we did last year, don’t you?
Lol thanks for the laugh… Needed a little comedy to lighten up the Day…
..
#blackQBlivesMatter
#blackQBpower
I wouldn’t marginalize the BLM movement’s importance by tossing it out as a joke.
Im not,,, im clowning Shahs black QB movement, and you are the last person to be giving politically correct lessons my friend
G;
I know you’re clowning Shah, but I don’t think using BLM to do it is funny. And it isn’t a lesson; you can still rip anything you’d like I say. No worries.
And I don’t think you wishing death on humans in your posts is funny, and never said a thing to you about what u should be posting, so excuse you, and Good day
You can feel free to any time you’d like.
Although I’d offer that fans of teams I don’t like, players on teams I don’t like, and players who let me down aren’t exactly humans.
He’s proving he’s a moron and only clowning himself when he does that. When he does the whole blackqblivesmatter he’s just race baiting by bringing in a whole different subject. He’s ignorant and wired that way. I think Shah is off here but still, it’s easy to pick a racist out when they are challenged. They can try to hide who they are but really? blackQBlivesmatter? blackQBpower? Shah is basically just taking the hood off the idiot’s head.
Wait. So you think the Eagles traded away those picks to select a white QB this year because they didn’t want to draft a black QB next year? Puff, puff, pass. Happy 4/20! I just can’t understand the way some people think. That is INSANE!
Just trash to bring race into QB talk… Sad to see a humans brain wired with such Filth in 2016… But to each his own. Live and let live I guess
Its ridiculous! I understand if there is a legitimate reason to bring race into it, but to throw it out there like that just reduces the importance of when it is credible.
Like I said, just Trashy
/me shrugs
Why not?
The core issue is that this trade makes no fucking sense.
How does it make not make sense? Is Bradford gonna win a SB any time soon? He hasn’t lead his team to 8 wins in a single season and he now in his 6th year. Gotta take a chance to be great. If it doesn’t work, are we really that worse off then we were yesterday?
Dude…it makes sense for an actual top of the first quality QB.
A Philip Rivers. An Eli Manning. A McNabb. Winston, Mariota, RGIII, etc, etc, etc. People who are clearly capable of coming in and turning around that offense.
We’re talking about fucking WENTZ, man.
Look, take a look at Jeff Driskel’s stats! Crap all through his years at Florida. Looks like a genius at Louisiana Tech! But Driskel’s the same quarterback he always was. It’s one thing to get the likes of Ben Roethlisberger or Steve McNair from those lower competition level schools. They were completely dominant. Wentz is also pretty much the best player on the field, but nothing like as good as he should be, if he were like number one or two in the draft. We’re seriously, if we’re unluckly, talking about drafting a tom fucking savage as our NEW FUTURE QB! Shit, future lame-os can deliberately go to lower competition and light it up…
RGIII was a high quality QB when he came into the league, so was Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch & wait for it…Sam Bradford. Look what they have done! We don’t even know if we are getting Wentz, so I don’t know why you are freaking out about it. The Rams could pick him. With Bradford, the Eagles would be selecting in the 13-18 pick each year. Just good enough to keep us from drafting this high again. If this move doesn’t work out, we will have another high pick in a couple years to try and get another QB. What’s wrong with swinging for the fences? Sometimes you hit a homerun.
Care to explain
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/002/135/sw50sw8sw578.gif
/me eyerolls…
The NFL’s overall quality of play on offense has been declining because we’re playing so many terrible white quarterbacks than marginal or bad black/other quarterback.
http://galeri3.uludagsozluk.com/129/facepalm_227789.jpg
gifs and glyphs don’t change the truth of what I said.
Unless you like more Fitzpatricks throwing his team out of the playoffs.
Or Hoyer, Lindley etc, giving the worst playoff performances ever.
White Fitzpatrik always holding black man Geno Smith down… #whiteDevil
..
LOL!!!
..
Im sure Rg3 was just benched because he wasn’t white like Cousins..
That’s if you said any truths. You didn’t. Maybe that offenses are setup to score in the NCAA and teams run the hurry-up a lot more. Or maybe some QBs aren’t ready to be thrown in the fire. Or that the NFL is a much harder game than the NCAA.
Trust me. It has nothing to do with color and everything to do with getting the best player. If a GM decides to go after a player due to race rather than skill, they won’t have a job very long.
The only time race becomes a factor may be in how the media treats players (Cam Newton), but that’s a whole different story with lots of caveats, and not handled on a sports blog.
You are way off base here.
You’re probably going a little too far here. If old white guy coaches and GMs don’t lean towards a white QB, then they’re showing pretty admirable lack of bias. Orchestras audition behind a screen now, you know.
Gifs and glyphs, hell a special forces squad of lawyers, monks, and clowns couldn’t change the truth of what you said.
It is untrue.
It is absurd to even suggest that a league that is forced to police teams from tampering with equipment, pumping in noise, using proven dangerous drugs, and risking players well-being and lives during injuries would knowingly choose to forgo a competitive advantage because of a player’s skin color.
Furthermore, you are claiming this in a sport where the majority of players are the race you are claiming is being treated unfairly, where the most recent overall number one pick was a player of that race, and specifically about a team where the most successful QB in our history was that race.
We get it, you thought Joe Webb had a shot. But, please, go back to being subtly and deniably racist so the rest of us can go back to pretending we don’t notice.
sure bud…
Let’s pretend that the NFL isn’t insanely racist about the quarterback spot.
(not)
Projecting whatever issues you have into the debate doesn’t make it true. Generally speaking (and I can’t speak to the Browns), teams draft the bpa on their board and if it’s a QB – I don’t think they have a 1 and 1a because one is black. This is the most ridiculous statement on this board, and there’s a troll on here who likes to talk about his “manhood.”
uh huh…
Remember how Desean Jackson was let go?
right, right…
When an obviously bad idea shows up, and people are all getting in line on that…shiiiiiiit, alot of the time, it’s just stupid garden variety racism, simply because a big fraction of willful stupidity is based on racism. The specious reasoning about likely chances for future QBs just makes me think racism is the flavor of this sort of stupidity. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think I wrong about some sort of very stupid and self-serving reasoning is going on with the Eagle’s staff.
No you’re pretty wrong. Chip didn’t like DJax because he wasn’t a follower. And considering he’s more interested in making shows and rap albums, I guess we didn’t notice he cost his team a TD in a playoff game – of which changed the momentum of the game. DJax was expendable.
Also doesn’t explain that out of seven draft picks last year, six were black.
Your understanding of racism is way off base. It’s like you have no context to anything, and it’s comments like these that make it difficult to make the argument for when it does happen.
The boy cried wolf is basically what this is.
uh huh…
Meanwhile, the Browns are finally doing what Minnesota is doing. Gotta remember–the secret of Browns failures had everything to do with drafting bad white QBs (Tim Couch excepting) and actually playing them well beyond what was advisable to do. If they’ve gotten to the point where they actually care about making sure the guy can actually play that position, whether that be RGIII, McCown, or a new drafted QB, well, they’re going to stop being so bad.
Yes drafting white QBs is the Browns problem all this time. Not the other many picks they’ve squandered, string of bad coaches, and frankly bad ownership – these are the things that make a bad team.
If drafting a black QB was the only thing needed, the Skins would have had a couple superbowls with Griffin. Yet bad coaching and ownership has kept that team back.
They passed over Big Ben – if they drafted him I’m pretty sure things might have turned out differently. This is a silly argument.
I ain’t forgot the whole situation with Manziel and Bridgewater. Plenty of stench with that. Tho’ of course, there is the idea that Bridgewater fired the Browns before the draft.
I don’t want to see it decline by having guys running all over the place instead of playing the game the right way by functioning primarily as a passer with some running only sprinkled in at the infrequent times it is truly needed.
The Minnesota Vikings would have been better off with Joe Webb running around and doing a deep throw or two instead of Christian fucking Ponder. San Francisco almost won the superbowl and almost went to another one purely on that basis.
The Bills got decent marginal play out of Tyrod Taylor, and if the defense had been any good, they’d have made the playoffs with him.
It’s a perfectly respectable, if highly dependent on youth, way to play the game, silly.
Not a fan of that style of play. It’s disorganized nonsense. Ponder sucking doesn’t mitigate that. I like the Vikings with Teddy learning how to play the game the right way with Norv a lot better than I would with Webb.
Your obsession with Joe Webb is one of the more fascinating delusions I’ve encountered. It’s honestly stunning.
Shah you’ve said some crazy ass shit over the years, but this takes the cake.
Roseman was here when McNabb was the QB, then committed to Vick. He signed Mark Sanchez. In fact, Nick Foles is the only white QB who’s ever played on the team when he’s had any sort of say. His job (and any prospect of future NFL employment he might have) is riding on this decision. To believe that he has a racial agenda beggars belief.
The far likelier explanation for why the team couldn’t trade up last year is that neither Tampa Bay nor Tennessee were interested in trading away their own chance to draft a franchise QB, as evidenced by the fact that they took Winston and Mariota themselves.
Don’t want to be in a position where you miss your guy b/c you’re waiting for him to fall to you. Clearly they wanted one guy, now they’ll get him.
From the frying pan to the fire. I guess I miss Chip Kelly already.
The Eagles can still get Joe Webb. You can never have too many QBs.
Yes, yes they could, but I seriously think Joe Webb is the backup quarterback in case Cam is out for a long time. Anderson is just the spot starter. They’re not trading Webb.
Foles should be available soon
Nope. Not even a little bit. Chip Kelly got rid of PROVEN talent. Guys who in HIS offense succeeded and were talented players. Eagles are paying significantly in this trade, no question about it, but they are going after a player they believe to be the face of the franchise moving forward by giving up lottery picks elsewhere. Yes, it is expensive, but even the 1st next year has a high risk of bust potential (as does Wentz/Goff), but nothing they are giving up is proven talent yet.
Who is “PROVEN” and where can I get his jersey?
Hit post early by accident. Edited if you refresh.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/draft/draft-trade-chart/
Just to run through the points.
#2 overall – 2600 Points.
4th rounder next year (16.5th pick of that round)- 67 points.
Eagles get 2667 points.
8 this year – 1400
79 this year – 195
100 this year – 100
Next year’s first (16.5th) – 975
Next year’s 3rd (80.5th) – 187.5
2018 2nd (48.5th) – 415
Rams get 3272.5 points.
So we overpaid by 605.5 or the 31st overall pick.
Not ideal. But jobs are now 100% on the line over 3 years.
(Browns, not Rams)
Good research.
Fixed
MM:
Greg Richards commented last night that values of future picks get discounted among the trading partners.
So a 2nd Rd pick that’s two years away, for sure, isn’t the same as a mid-2nd Rd pick this year.
Same goes for a 1st Rd pick next year.
Maybe the over-pay is closer to 250-300 points.
Greg said some teams see it that way. Others see it as assuming it’ll be the middle of that round.
I messed this up by one pick. Next year’s third isn’t on the deal; so we only lost by 418 points; which is essentially pick 48.
According to PFT, if the Eagles retain all 3 QB, they will have invested over $58M into the position. Bradford is guaranteed $24M over two years, Daniel $12M and the rough slot amount for the #2 pick would be another $24M guaranteed. A further issue is two of them, Daniel and Wentz, have either barely or never played at the NFL level and Bradford is a definition of average even when healthy. Pretty scary.
that’s why HR is ranked 23rd on the GM list…
Nice.
I’ll remain a Howie fan however.
Hello; Jets. What will you give us for Bradford?
Bradford gets cut after this season when he refuses to sign an extension with a new team to help us fascilitate a trade because he would rather be cut and be a free agent
..
Im more concerned with how they divy up practice reps than investing too much in a QB for one year
with a cheap 2017 contract (for the team trading for him) and with the option to franchise tag him there really should be no concerns with that if Bradford plays at a decent level and stays healthy.
He is a very attractive option for a team in the Jets/Broncos/Texans situation of a playoff roster lacking a functional QB. If he plays well we should be able to get a decent pick(s) back for him.
Typically teams don’t give up much value without getting the QB to sign an extension (unless we can trade him to Chip kelly).., if Bradford plays his value up, I think his super agent will make a stink about a trade and force us to cut Bradford allowing him to be a free agent after staying relatively healthy for two years… Love to get a pick for him, but that’s not my expectation, love to be wrong tho
Hell … we just traded for him last year with only one year left on his deal and without him agreeing to a contract extension first, and he was coming off of a year where he sat out with his second consecutive ACL tear. If he plays decently this year, I see no reason why another team wouldn’t do the same.
I am all in on this approach. Attack QB again and again with every resource you have until you find a solution.
Bradford might be the guy, Wentz might be the guy, Daniel might possibly be the guy. Keep going until you find a solution and then you can start to build a team – since this team is not going to contend until it found a solution at QB that allowed them to do so.
I hear you, but didn’t we just get married to Goff or Wentz?
3 years in a football franchise life may feel like an eternity to fans, but it really isn’t so bad… And the young QB will be pretty cheap all the way through thanks to the rookie salary cap. It’d be more of an albatross if the rookie deal was similar to Sam Bradford’s rookie deal.
for 2-3 years. But if that does not work out then you go again at the position.
Realistically you are not going to spend resources again until 2018 on a QB because of playing time restrictions and you need to see guys play to be able to evaluate them.
And, here’s the thing that keeps bringing me back to reality. I don’t hate the trade solely because of the compensation. The compensation is actually decently reasonable for a top QB prospect. I just don’t see a top prospect when I look at Carson Wentz.
That’s one of the better worded defenses of this strategy
Part of why I’m thinking those crazy thoughts.
It takes crazy reasoning to think this is a good idea.
Blech. Roseman just gave up a lot to move up to #2. Geoff/Wentz had better be good. First move of his in awhile I’ve been genuinely unhappy with.
I’m mad it was more than 8, 79, and next year’s one. I like the move, but we have zero margin for error on all other picks for 3 years now.
Agreed, It is a very rough price. I can only imagine the price was so high because Cleveland also has a crap QB situation and was genuinely interested in taking a QB. Had to blow them away, they have too many other needs not to take the picks.
Uhhhhh; I hate overpaying.
Not sure i agree it is a huge over pay. We gave up net a 1st, 2nd and 3rd – and those are spread over 3 years. Cheaper QB situation should help mitigate some of that loss via free agency and Howie is an arch wheeler dealer i think we will get some value back via trades (2018 2nd in a trade next year for Bradford is very doable for a team in win now mode)
Didn’t Browns also get our 4th?
We get their 2017 4th back, which will be in all likely hood be a top 5 4th round pick.
I noticed after posting that you summarized 1st, 2nd and 3rd this year, and realized we never had a 2nd, so it kind of made sense. Getting their 4th next year blunts the blow a bit.
I have us as negative 600 points in the deal. That’s a bit much.
Btw, how does that compare to the Rams-Titans trade, I was curious
The QB premium?
I reject that; unless I’m the one trading down.
Thankfully Roseman didn’t give up both our 3rds… But It would have been nice if Roseman could have held on to one of our 3rds AND that pick #100
That was a sweetener for the browns – since we get their 2017 4th back. Think it may have been the price to get the 2nd round pick moved to being the 2018 draft rather than 2017.
Well the advantage with a rookie QB deal is we will have a very cheap QB situation come 2018, so we can sign players to take up those roles in 2018 free agency, but yeah the team is going to need to hit on 1-2 guys late in the next 2 years of drafts if they want to build a contending roster.
I hate to keep chasing free agents. I want all pros on rookie deals!
I’m with you. I just don’t really love any of these QBs this year and Wentz is the guy with too much risk to take that high.
Yep. If he works out, none of us will care about the price we paid to get him. If he doesn’t, Howie just set the franchise back five years. It’s an “all in” move, and to my amateur eyes at least, Wentz does not seem like the type of prospect who merits that sort of risk-taking. But we’ll have to see.
Would you rather have seen The Eagles invest the mega money it took Houston to sign Osweiler after only seeing him play in limited NFL action? Or would you rather trade what we gave up for wentz/Goff without ever seeing them play in an NFL game?
..
Not sure which risk Id feel better about accepting…
No. I’d rather trade up that have signed Osweiler to that $.
Spend the draft picks… Osweiler has a limited upside- and the fact that the Broncos are letting him walk tells you about his evaluation.
Wentz has elite upside – the kind of guy who could carry a team every year to the playoffs. Now the risks are big – i hate his lack of games far more than the 1-AA thing which is hugely overblown, but he is pretty much what you would build if you were drawing up a dream QB from a traits perspective.
And he gets to sit a year (or two). That’s a great scenario to have. This could be Rodgers 2.0.
A sit down into his 2nd year would be really strong poker from Howie and Doug.
I was thinking more if Bradford showed up really well this season. If you feel like you got a shot, why not ride him year 2?
He’s going to be 24 next season and the Eagles have like 8 QB coaches. If he’s not starting the first game of 2017 we have problems.
“i hate his lack of games” . . .
_______________
That is the biggest problem.
He has the second fewest starts of any Top-5 QB drafted in the past 20 years.
21 starts for Wentz . . . versus 15 for Sanchez.
Every one else is at at least 26 college starts.
And the one stat that has the highest predictive value for NFL success for college QBs is….number of starts
That and the big jump from NDSU to the NFL are my biggest concerns. The fact that his mechanics also need a lot of work and he’s not a very consistently accurate QB are just icing on the cake of why I’m not thrilled with betting this amount of premium resources on him being a franchise QB.
If he fell to 8th overall or we just happened to have the 2nd overall pick from the get go, that’s one thing. But, I’d have to be looking at a much better prospect to ever feel comfortable spending this much to go get them.
he had issues with how the Broncos handled his situation, thats where they went separate ways I think more than evaluation. Of course, Broncos know the most about his skill set, no doubt and were low balling him so its something. I think Brock has a lot of good traits, tall athletic guy and has played in NFL games and won.
I say let the evaluators make the call on that and they clearly did. So in this case I say do the picks.
I loved the risk Houston took. I think you have way more info on Ossweiller, whos won big games, shown up late in games, not made dumb mistakes etc. People still rip the guy and pretend to know he will be awful. Also, it aint our money as long as its not a cap killer and it really isnt. Only will be awful if he outright falls off completely.
You aren’t sure?
You were damn sure you loved the big money we gave Bradford and even more sure Wentz, Goff, and Lynch were hot garbage in every thread for the past month.
Now you aren’t sure?
Wentz full games from 2014-2015 & 2015-2016
2014-2015 Champ Game
2014 FCS Championship North Dakota State vs Illinois State
https://youtu.be/b7363rXTExc
2014 Coastal Carolina at North Dakota State
https://youtu.be/S9qADieKH18
2014 South Dakota State at North Dakota State
https://youtu.be/0iBztCZUKO8
2015 Weber State at North Dakota State
https://youtu.be/WoJx6OrtWIE
2016 FCS Championship Jacksonville State vs North Dakota State
https://youtu.be/5YdgRcdXpFU
I am no professional scout, but I am pretty sure some of those states you listed aren’t actually states.
Oh yes, people, just remember, it’s now the staff’s jobs that who they draft at QB (tho’ I could always hope that it’s Ramsey, what the helll…). This means that if Wentz (or Goff) doesn’t really have what it takes, we are in for some seriously painful Ponder/Locker/Gabbert seasons, as they keep throwing a hopeless case out there just for that miracle they’re praying for shows up…
Give up on Ramsey bro, Howie straight up said they are drafting a QB
/me cries…
but I *like* watching both the Eagles and Vikings!
We’re like that anyway. These 7-9, 9-7 10-6 years are OK, but they aren’t leading anywhere.
Push the chips in, let’s go. Love it.
I don’t like gambling. I don’t gamble on the NFL, even though I guess I could make money from it. And top of the first QB are explicitly about minimum gambling, normally. Shit, we even get a touch of injury concerns about both QBs without RGIII’s upsides. This in a league where it seems that Andrew Luck really did get pretty hurt last year.
Think of it as a shrewd (hopefully) investment. RG3s injuries aren’t even his worst trait. He is smart as hell but the spotlight did not sit well on him.
We didn’t know about how weird RGIII was in the NFL context.
Do we know about Goff or Wentz? What’s the upside that we’re getting paid in order to take on this risk?
you cant make money from it, sports gambling is a horrible investment. I know
I always figured that most people don’t make enough on the things they know well enough, and lose a lot on a bad bounce of the ball.
I mean, I would have made a bit of money on Seattle beating Denver, right?
Lost probably more money on Denver beating Carolina.
The danger of gambling is always psychological. Much like in financial markets, you’re tempted to reach ever higher for yield, until the branch beneath you breaks and you fall and hurt yourself bad.
yup, sort of like the bank robbers conundrum. Once they get away with the first one they always go back for more, then get caught
I am not sure i even believe in stuff like fate/karma/curses….
But the fact that we traded with the Browns for a QB somehow makes me more positive… that franchise is some how cursed, and i just feel it increases the odds that the QB they passed on turns out to be truly special.
Until you remember that this is the Eagles you’re talking about.
Browns fans are probably saying the exact same thing.
I wont quite copy paste my rant but we are not the same as the Browns… at all. We are not in the same universe to them. we have had 3 loosing seasons since 2000, while we have had no QB for the last 7 years we have only had 2 loosing seasons.
Browns have 2 winning seasons since they revived as a franchise… they have 1 play off loss since 1999 as their only post season play.
Yes we have not won a SB, but the reality of the size of the league and the historic dynasty’s winning the bulk of the championships means that 10 different team have never won a SB . It just happens our period of dominance was pre Super Bowl period.
Wouldn’t it be the ultimate irony if we ended up with the #1 overall pick next year which the browns then use to draft deshaun Watson, who leads them to multiple Superbowl
Cleveland.
your thought is invalid
Wow, you are some Negadelphian, aren’t you?!
No I like the trade. Just shooting the shit
A running back is going to lead the Browns to the Superbowl; great!
Eagles fans overreacting today will be nothing compared to next week when they see that Miles Jack falls to #8. Lol
I would be more nervous if we had taken him at 8 than if we made he trade.
ouch
God bless the Cowboys, both DE Gregory and Demarcus Lawrence suspended to start the season
Hahahabbabahhahababbababababahahahhahaha
GE —
How’s your draft night looking now?
Shite. It actually means hitting the bar at 5:59 sharp and leaving it at 8.17ish. So we’re basically talking about 8-10 beers only.
Bosa?
If they’re wrong, they’re going to set the franchise back a decade. Set it back from what exactly?
How long until McNabb talks trash about Wentz?
Besides the trade gotta be happy if you are the Chargers, Jags, Girls and Ravens players like Tunsil, and Ramsey available later now, honestly Girls will probably end up with Ramsey…
Jack might fall a bit, wouldn’t shock me if he’s there at 8, some teams have real concerns
glorious day!
Yaaaaaaaay! We got the white Jason Campbell!
(if he turns out good)
wait you don’t like him?!?!
even better!!!!!!!!!!
Ben Albright thinks he’s the next Roethlisberger. I’m assuming that’s what Eagles brass thinks as well.
.
.
.
I’m doubtful.
no Allbright said he’s either the next Roethlisberger or he isn’t.
But he said both weeks before anyone else.
If we’ve learned anything it’s that he both said it and didn’t say it.
everyone loves their comparisons. And Goff is Bradford. Or to flip it hes the next Aaron Rogers because…Cal. Theres even a McNabb in this draft, check it out
Check out the clips below, and then check out Campell in Zorn’s offense. Not a few similarities in how Wentz and Campbell plays.
“Strengths: Has the prototypical size you want in a quarterback…Has very good arm strength…Very mobile around the pocket and does a proficient job of passing the ball accurately on the run…Does a good job of throwing the ball away when nothing is there…Doesn’t make a lot of unnecessary risks throwing the football…Shows good presence in the pocket and keeps a great mental clock of when it is collapsing…Tosses a very accurate deep ball.
Weaknesses: Competition he plays against doesn’t have a lot of speed, so he will certainly have to adjust to NFL defenses…Does a poor job of looking off the free safety and this shows a lack of polish and maturity as a passer…Has a lot to learn and needs 1-2 years to be developed…Not very athletic.
Notes: On film I really like Flacco, but it becomes fairly obvious that he needs some time in the NFL to develop. I think he is a solid second-round prospect. I don’t see him being a superstar, but he can have a very good career. ”
Sounds like Wentz ha. Id take it for a superbowl and that playoff record.
I don’t know how similar this report is to Wentz actually. Size and arm strength, competition levels being sub par thus leading to a lack of polisj and having a lot to learn and adjust to…yea those are similar.
Then it completely breaks down…
One of Wentz’s most common criticisms is that he doesn’t throw the ball well on the run because his mechanics frequently break down and he’s very inaccurate when his base isn’t set.
Wentz has been known to hold the ball for too long and does not throw the ball away when nothing is there.
Wentz is very weak when it comes to deep ball accuracy.
Wentz is extremely athletic.
So besides being a small school D-1AA kid with a big body and big arm, he’s basically the anti-Flacco.
there’s a McNabb in every draft because the media is lazy and borderline racist
true
Today marks the day a dynasty was born. #HaveFaith #Philly
Save this post. In a couple years you can brag. Either that, or we’ll see you with the tar and feathers.
Would be great to recoup some picks with trading Bradford next year
2nd rounder in 2018 seems realistic.
F it. Trade him now to the Jets.
Word! Gimme picks!
Maybe that’s part of the plan. How long is Daniel under contract?
3 years
Thanks.
Bank on Cleveland trading down with the Titans — or someone else — to collect more picks. And more again.
Goes with the whole analytics angle — Scott Hattieburg style.
Start with an “undervalued” Robt Griffin, who when healthy has more talent than Goff or Wentz, and he’s being coached by HJax-QB guru.
So get more 2nd and 3rd rd picks and draft many players as possible.
(not my views. just seems like money ball.)
Kinda like FirstPick.com . . .
This is interesting. I was wondering if the Eagles were going to take this route this year.
True! Love the trade downs.
Ive seen many draft experts say that the players you get between 20 and 40 are nearly identical and the players you get between 50 and 70 are nearly identical. They’re so close in their grading and valuation that it’s almost impossible to rank any of them significantly above the others so it all comes down to personal preference and team needs. So why not trade back from 25 to 30 and pick up an extra 3rd or 4th round pick. Sure you might occasionally miss out on someone but over the course of many years of doing that you’re statistically going to come out ahead.
Panthers just rescinded Josh Norman’s franchise tag. He’s a FA. Holy hell.
Holy hell, indeed.
uh oh.
You think he should get a shot at QB?
yes, with the money he’s asking.
No, think he has a behavior problem.
first thing that came to my mind as well. It doesn’t matter that you can’t get a long term deal done. You were in the superbowl, if you can secure 1 more year with one of the top CB’s in the league, that 1 season is incredibly relevant, not worth throwing out on a whim.
I want to say go get him but then remember the Eagles’ track record with high-priced free agent CBs.
Since we won’t have any draft picks please sign this guy, Howie!!!
I think they’ll let him find a deal on the market and then match if they want to, not a bad way to go about it.
If that was their plan they could have just used the non-exclusive franchise tag:
“A player given an “exclusive” tag, which is worth slightly more, cannot negotiate with other teams. A player given the “non-exclusive” tag can deal with outside clubs, but if he’s allowed to sign with a new team, his previous club is compensated with two first-round draft picks. That compensation however, can be negotiated down by the two teams involved if the team issuing the non-exclusive tag agrees.”
And, this way they’d be able to get something in return as well if they don’t decide to match.
That was rude on their part.
Feels like our focus on how a rookie QB will pan out has diverted our attention from the huge question about how effective an HC DP will be. In the long run, the fate of the new QB may correlate with the assessments of our rookie HC.
I’m hoping the Rams take Wentz instead of Goff. A soon to be 24 year old that needs to learn how to read defenses, locks onto his receivers, relies on his athleticism and needs to rework his footwork is really too flawed for my liking.
I was kind of higher on Goff also, great footwork and release. Cmon, damn whyd you have to ruin my fun with that post. We shall see
Goff definitely looks smoother and more fluid in general. He is too small though, and it’s not just something he can fill out – he is small framed compared to Wentz. That bothers me.
someone posted this in another thread though and I like the angle. Almost get robotic with all the QB coaching, where Wentz is maybe raw but more upside.
“Wentz, some believe, is not a top prospect despite blooming late. He is, in some readings, a top prospect because he bloomed late. His delayed progression allowed him to develop well-rounded athletic skills and avoid the over-coaching – and, in some cases, detrimental coaching – many young quarterbacks receive.
“It’s killing the position,” said Jeff Christiansen, a former NFL quarterback who has tutored, among others, New England Patriots backup Jimmy Garoppolo. “It’s destroying it. I don’t think Wentz ever went to a quarterback coach. There are three or four guys that I had that never went, and they’re further along than had they gone to a guy and become a mechanical robot. It’s a glaring, glaring problem.”
If you really thought this way, then Cardale Jones is cheaper, with a higher cash payout than wentz.
But he’s black, so no way the Eagles are interested right?
Howie is the racist not Chip!!!!
Jimmy Garoppolo?
It’s great to have a feel for a game but even the best freelancer isn’t going to be able to do things a professional has. Mechanical isn’t bad. Brady and Peyton are mechanical. Young and Elway were freelancers. But in the case for Wentz, he’s more like McNabb than those guys.
As far as the trade goes, I don’t particularly like it but I understand their rationale.
Agreed. Especially at the price they paid.
Any chance (in cap hell) at all we will take a shot at Norman?!
He wants 16 million I heard.
Burn in hell. ;))
Well holy shit…That’s a hell of a lot of capital to expend on a D-1AA QB from North Dakota State who’s started for 1 and a half years. Here’s hoping he’s able to become a top 5-6 QB under Pedersons tutelage otherwise we’re gonna have some trouble rounding out this roster and filling our pending needs the next 3-4 years without being able to use our firsts this year and next, no second rounder this year or next, no 4th rounder this year and minus one of our two 3rd rounders this year.
I’m truly shocked at the accepted value of trading up just 6 spots in the NFL draft. For the difference between Lunsil and Stanley or Ramsey and Hargreaves (essentially what Cleveland gave up) they get another first round pick next year, another 2nd round pick next year, another third this year. That’s just insane. No way the cost (essentially the difference in fielding a team with Tunsil at LT versus one with Stanley at LT or pick whatever player comparison you want from this draft) is anywhere close in value to the cost (a 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th round pick…essentially getting a whole ‘nother draft class over the next two offseason). I know that’s the going rate when QBs are involved and IF the QB you get turns out to be great it’s probably worth that and more, but it’s always talked about in terms of the worth of a great QB. The deal only ever makes sense if the QB ends up being a top 5 QB, otherwise it’s an unmitigated disaster. No one ever talks about the cost from the perspective of the team trading down though and what they ostensibly give up versus what they get. If they liked the QB available and needed a QB they’d just thank the gods that they had a high enough pick to get that guy without giving up a kings ransom and make the selection. But, if they’re literally shopping the pick it’s because they don’t want to and weren’t going to draft the QB anyway. So not only are they not giving up a great QB because the greatness of said QB is only potential (and statistically less than 50% potential that he ever becomes great) and not an actual reality, but they’re not giving up a QB at all because they never intended to pick him anyways.
It’s like paying a million dollars to someone for their lottery ticket because if it hits that price would be well worth it.
it’s the price because someone’s always desperate.
Exactly. And, I just hate that we’re the ones that are desperate in this situation.
Yea, like closing time at the bar, even the girls from North Dakota State start looking good.
Well articulated recap of the downside. However, if you want to sell me a lotto ticket with a 40% chance of hitting (you said historically less than 50%) a 100million jackpot for 1 million, and I had 1 million (which the Eagles obviously did) then I buy that ticket every time. The question is what % chance you think Wentz has of being a star, obviously the Eagles believe it was high.
You’re actually surprisingly close with your 40% estimate. of the 45 QBs taken in the first round since 1999, 38% have won a playoff game and 36% have a winning record. But, having one playoff win or a winning record is hardly a 100 million dollar payout. Of those 45 first round QBs since 1999, only 6 have career passer ratings that would rank them in the top ten last year. That’s only 13%.
So, if we agree that what we paid only makes sense if he becomes a top ten QB, then the real chance of winning that lottery is more like 13%. Which makes that lottery ticket, statistically speaking, worth on average $13million, if the payoff is $100million and it has a 13% chance of hitting.
An additional caveat to the scenario you presented is, what if you only had a little over a million dollars to begin with. Would you rather invest it in a diversified portfolio that would have every reasonable expectation of growing at a steady rate, but low likelihood of ever bankrupting you, or would you rather take your entire nest egg and gamble it on a lottery ticket that had a 13% chance of making your investment go up 100 fold, with a subsequent 87% chance of being in severe financial distress for the next couple years before you can build your net worth up again.
Interesting discussion. I think the big point where the Eagles thinking may differ from some on here is in your last paragraph. I think the Eagles believe that they have assembled a roster with few holes that is fairly young and while it may lack some depth that can be found with the remaining picks (in our discussion meaning they believe they have amassed enough wealth that they can afford the million dollar risk without risking bankruptcy). I think some on here believe they are farther away and may need a couple more top end talents to have a truly competitive roster (and therefore if the ticket doesn’t hit they will go bankrupt).
Not sure exactly where I fall on that question, but I do think we need a true stud QB, that Bradford won’t get us over that last hump. If they are sold Wnetz is that guy, that’s why they make the big bucks and we might as well hope they are right
That’s definitely a good point/analogy. I guess the reason I feel differently is, as you stated, that I see more holes than they do.
As it’s constructed right now for the immediate season the roster does not have any major glaring holes. That I agree with. There’s a definite lack of top end difference making talent, but there’s a reasonable starter at every single position.
However, if you draft a project like Wentz that needs to sit for a year at least, possibly two, and will need a year as a starter before he grows into the roll, you’re looking for your window to open up in 2-3 years. So you can’t really look at what glaring needs we have going into this immediate season, (the draft is about the future anyways, right?) but rather look at the projected holes 2-3 years down the line. At that point, we will need an OT (possibly a LT the most important position on the line if Johnson doesn’t transition as we hope), a LG, 2-3 RBs, a WR (either a #1 guy or depth if Agholar becomes a legit #1), a back up TE, a DE, DT depth which we have none at the moment (and potentially a starting DT if they can’t resign both Cox and Logan), depth at all 3 LB positions and most likely at least 1 starter, depth at S, a starting CB as well as depth at CB and a punt returner.
Even if you take the most conservative estimates of how many players it will take to really turn this into a competitive roster with adequate depth, you’re looking at needing to add about 14 players 5 of which would be starters over the next 1-2 offseasons.
Doing that with a 3rd rounder and two 5th rounders this year (I’m not counting 6th and 7th round picks since statistically they have the same success rate as UDFA and thus in my eyes are relatively worthless commodities) and a single 3rd, 4th and 5th round set of picks in 2017, does not sound very feasible to me.
You make a very sound argument. Hard to disagree. We do have our 2 next year though, it’s the 2018 2 that we traded
Oh…I must have misread that…I didn’t realize the 2nd rounder was in 2018. That does make things mildly better.
And, that’s just the needs that will HAVE to be addressed by 2017-2018 and isn’t taking into account that as constructed right now and without projecting or hoping that certain players make a huge leap this team lacks top end talent at literally every single level of the team except for S and DT.
By next season we will be looking at a backfield of a 30 year old injury prone Ryan Mathews and Kenjon Barner, a WR corp that does not have anyone that strikes fear into opposing defenses (Essentially Jordan Matthews and the hope that Agholar realizes his potential, however high that might be), an Offensive line that will NEED two starters and who’s best player is a pretty good RT who were hoping makes a smooth transition to LT, no elite CBs on the roster and little in the way of depth and absolutely no depth at LB and DT, and no stud pass rushers (unless Vinny Curry and/or Graham develop into one).
This team has adequate reasonable starters at every position next year, will have a few needs that need to be addressed next season due to retirements, players leaving in FA, ect like every team, but still lacks any player outside of Fletcher Cox that is a true difference maker. And, they won’t be able to expect to get one in the draft until 2018.
Dude, you’re my new favorite poster.
Thanks for the compliment
Not only would this scenario be a crappy investment, it also diminishes future earnings (draft picks).
Think the 13% aspect is a little harsh.. players have retired in that period, and there can only be 10 top QB’s however well they played.
Also there is significant statistical difference between late 1st round pick success rate and earlier picks – especially when you look at them becoming true ‘franchise’ guys.
Looking at top 3 drafted QB’s since 2000.
Success: Manning, Ryan, Newton, Luck, Palmer?
Some success: Stafford, Smith, Vick
Busts: Bradford,Carr, Young, Russell
Ungraded: Bortles, Winston, Mariota (but all 3 look positive so far)
Generally you get a someone who is able to be a long term starter – about 25% seem to become stars, 25% become the tier bellow that, 25% become average starters and about 25% bust.
I think you’re misunderstanding the metric I used. I used career QB rating numbers for all the QBs drafted in the first round and then compared them to the QB ratings of the top ten QBs in 2015. So regardless of retirement or how many drafted players I’m looking at, it wouldn’t have any effect on that analysis. If every single one of the QBs drafted since 1999 in the first round ended up with career QB ratings of over 140, the conclusion would be that 100% of first round QBs (all 45 of them since 1999) ended up with career QB ratings that would land them in the discussion of top ten QBs in the league.
I’m not sure how else you can look it. Career numbers are surely superior to single season statistics in figuring out how successful those picks ended up being and seeing how those career numbers would rate against the current leagues set of starting QBs seems like a reasonable comparison to determine if those 1st round QBs careers placed them statistically in the same quality of play as a typical top ten QB. Especially, if we agree that for such a bounty of picks to have been worth it, Wentz (or whichever QB we end up with) would have to end up becoming a top ten QB in this league. Or, said differently, a QB that, over his career, had yearly QB ratings that typically fell within the top ten.
Last year the top ten QBs in the league had between a 95.4 QB rating and a 110.1 QB rating. So if you look at a QBs career rating and find out his career rating was 98, you could safely say that he turned out to be a successful first round pick and gave a top ten performance throughout his career. For example, Sam Bradford has a career passer rating of 81. But, what does that mean? Is that good or bad? If we compare that with the rank list of QB ratings for 2015, we see that his average career performance would have been good for 30th overall last year. It just gives it some context on what type of performance you can expect from a first round QB over his career.
Eighteen quarterbacks from Couch to Blake Bortles (excluding the rookies from last year since the data set is too small, but if they were included they’d only further support my point) have been picked first, second or third overall in the last 16 years.
Only seven of these very high picks have winning records as starters, and only seven have won playoff games, though recent picks such as Bortles have not had many opportunities yet to build their records.
Fitting both categories are Andrew Luck, Cam Newton, Matt Ryan, Alex Smith, Eli Manning, Michael Vick and Donovan McNabb. Vince Young has a winning record but no playoff wins. That’s about 38% again. But, how many of those guys ended up being worth what we just paid. I’d say Cam Newton, Donovan McNabb and Andrew Luck are the only guys on that list that would have justified spending 2 first round picks, a second round pick, a third round pick, a 4th round pick, a starting CB and a cheap LB that is recovering from injury but has all-pro ability when fully healthy. I wouldn’t in retrospect pay that much for Matt Ryan or Alex Smith or Micheal Vick or even Eli Manning and I certainly wouldn’t pay that much for the other 11 guys that don’t even have a winning record or even a playoff game to their names. So if you just want to take out statistics and QB rating all together…fine…there’s still only been 3 QBs in the past 16 years out of the 18 that have been picked in the top three that would justify such an investment. or about 16.67%.
Career QB rating compared to single year is a stupid metric honestly – you are not comparing like with like at all.
Not only has rule changes and continued improvement in NFL offenses led to QB rating continuing to rise.. a 90 QB rating in the early 2000’s is very different to one today.
But even more so QB at the start and end of their careers have poor QB ratings, and that negative pressure pulls down their lifetime QB rating… compared to a single season when a player is having a hot year in a good offense. Add in the fact that QB rating is an awful judge of QB performance then you have a metric that makes no sense.
With the size of sample (18 QB’s drafted since 99 in the top 3) there is really no need to undertake statistical analysis which is hugely flawed anyway, go through each pick on a case by case basis to evaluate them in their context…
All valid points…I actually totally concede that to you…in retrospect it is a stupid metric.
¯_(ツ)_/¯
now we really know how desperate we are for a QB. The Trifecta of the QB coach in Pederson, Demand to have a Franchise QB in Lurie, and the sheer “I too can opt not playing the value game/make a football guy move with my gut” of Howie- might have been too powerful.
OR
hopefully they really believe in the guy they know will be there. If that is the case, 2 is where they needed to be.
The only problem I have with accepting the second option you present is that they don’t even know for sure which of the 2 will even be there when it’s time for them to make the selection.
It’s quite a reach for me to believe that in a draft that most experts agreed just a month ago, did not have ONE single QB that was considered a relatively sure fire pick, and every one of the top QBs had some major holes, issues or projection associated with their game, that we are somehow completely sure and really believe in TWO of those guys enough that we literally don’t even care to wait and see which one ends up going off the board first.
Yeah it is one hell of a roll of the dice. I think there is a pretty slim margin where the outcome justifies the costs. Ballsy and or stupid.
The only thing I can think of is that Howie doesn’t have the luxury to play the long game. Lurie seems to be completely out of patience. Time to go all in?
Honestly I am not sure it’s that complicated. I think they believe they didn’t have a QB capable of winning the SB, they don’t plan to be in the top ten any more any time soon, they really like Wentz and so it makes sense
That’s pretty much exactly how I see it as well.
Appetite was whet in 2015 when they talked about trading the farm for mariota. Once they’d crossed that threshold think it was pretty easy to do this type of deal. Howie clearly had a mandate from Lurie to get a guy.
I’m not bothering to post because you are right on the mark.
Truth.
You know who I’m really envious of this year…the Titans. They have a franchise QB in place and now they have the 15th pick in this years draft, 3 2nd rounders and 2 3rd rounders giving them 6 of the top 76 draft picks in the deepest draft in recent memory. And, the first of their 2nd and 3rd round picks are the first pick in that round. Oh and they also have 2 first rounders and second rounder and 2 3rd round picks in next years draft. That’s 11 picks in the top three rounds in a two year period. Enough to essentially field half the starters on your team.
According to ESPN Stats, every team since 1975 that’s held six or more of the top-76 picks has made the Super Bowl within five years of the draft where they held those picks. Add in the fact that their franchise QB is already in place and they have two first rounders next year and their GM will have to be epically bad for them to not be a contender in a few years.
Things really fell into place for them.
They picked a great year or two to suck.
Their GM is unlikely to be epically bad. Highly rated talent evaluator, so he gets a chance to look really good.
Oh for sure…I fully expect them to be a top contender in a couple years.
They have a franchise QB and still managed to be the worst team in football. Not really that jealous.
Obviously I’m talking about the future. That would be like sitting around in 1990 and saying you’re not envious of the position Dallas put themselves in after the Herschel Walker trade because they only won 1 game that year.
Not a huge deal right now obviously, I keep seeing that the 4th we get back next year is conditional, any reports on what the conditions are?
No, but I’d guess we’ll get the lowest 4th they have. Conditionals are trade-able next year and the Browns are in line to get a ton of conditional picks.
You mean comp picks? That makes some sense
Yes. brain fart, sorry.
It’s the latest in the round.
Trade analysis using 3 different methodologies for valuing future picks. I’ve seen all 3 used.
a. The first methodology values future picks as worth between pick 16/17 in round of future pick with no devaluation based on year of draft pick is in.
PHI gets: Pick 2, 2016: 2600 pts + 2017 4th round pick(65 pts) = 2665 points
CLE gets: Pick 8, 2016: 1400 pts; Pick 77, 2016: 205 pts; Pick 100, 2016 =100 pts; 2017 1st = 975 pts; 2018 2nd = 425 pts. Total = 3105 pts
b. The second methodology gives a one-round devaluation for future picks but assumes the same draft position that the team that acquired the pick had the season of trade. For example, the 2017 1st round pick is valued at the same level as the 13th pick in the 2nd round(our original draft position). The 2018 2nd is devalued 2 rounds and is the equivalent of a 4th round pick this year.
PHI gets: Pick 2, 2016: 2600 pts + 2017 4th round pick(35 pts) = 2635 pts
CLE gets: Pick 8, 2016: 1400 pts; Pick 77, 2016: 205 pts; Pick 100, 2016
=100 pts; 2017 1st = 460 pts; 2018 2nd = 72 pts. Total = 2237 pts
c. The third methodology is the same as the 2nd but doesn’t factor in each team’s record the season of the trade but uses the 16th/17th pick average(devalued a round for each year out).
PHI gets: Pick 2, 2016: 2600 pts + 2017 4th round pick(28.8 pts) = 2628.8 pts
CLE
gets:Pick 8, 2016: 1400 pts; Pick 77, 2016: 205 pts; Pick 100, 2016
=100 pts; 2017 1st = 425 pts; 2018 2nd = 65 pts; Total = 2195 pts.
My math is thrown slightly off by the fact that there were only 31 picks
in the first round this year but the above is still valuable as a pt of
comparison. The first methodology favors the Browns by 430 pts. The second methodology favors the Eagles by 398 points. The third methodology favors the Eagles by 433.8 points. It’s pretty clear to me that each team pushed a different value interpretation for future picks and then met in the middle.
I got this
Just to run through the points.
#2 overall – 2600 Points.
4th rounder next year (16.5th pick of that round)- 67 points.
Eagles get 2667 points.
8 this year – 1400
79 this year – 195
100 this year – 100
Next year’s first (16.5th) – 975
Next year’s 3rd (80.5th) – 187.5
2018 2nd (48.5th) – 415
Browns get 3272.5 points.
So we overpaid by 605.5 or the 31st overall pick.
Not ideal. But jobs are now 100% on the line over 3 years.
We didn’t give up next year’s 3rd. We gave up 77 in 2016, not 79. Again, not everyone gives future picks the same value. I suggest you read my entire post. One methodolgy favored Browns. The other 2 favored the Eagles. They compromised.
I saw the whole post. I’d prefer to use methodology #1.
I agree. I think downgrading a future pick by an entire round is excessive. A first round pick is a first round pick. If we end up with a top ten pick next year, you can’t tell me that has the same value as pick 48 this year. By the metrics given in both the second and third metrics we should have been able to trade both our thirds and almost have enough to trade for a teams 1st rounder next year, add in a 5th or 6th rounder and you’re there. Tell me you know of any team that would fork over their 2017 first round pick for a pair of third rounders and 6th rounder. If that was an accurate assessment of value I’d be doing that every single year. Hell, I’d be trading every pick after the 4th round for future first rounders. If it’s an accurate representation of value why don’t we see more trades that involve teams sending their 3rd round pick for other teams 1st rounders 3 years from now? With even just a small bit of job security I’d do that all the time and I’d end up with two first round picks and no 3rd rounder for the rest of my career as GM. The reason we don’t see trades like that (outside of trading a 6th for a future 5th or other similarly meaningless commodities that have little difference in value) is because it’s not an accurate representation of real value, especially so when dealing with first and second round picks.
I’d agree that the 2nd and 3rd methodology undervalues future picks but I think the first methodology overvalues future picks. Off the top of my head, let’s look at a past trade that involved a future pick. In the 2008 draft, the Eagles traded pick 19 in the 1st round for pick 43 in the 2nd round, pick 109 in the 4th round and the Panthers’ 2009 1st round pick.
1st methodology –
Eagles get: Pick 43(470 pts), Pick 109(76 pts), 2009 1st(975 pts) = 1521 pts
Panthers get: Pick 19(875 pts)
By that methodology, the Eagles got a very significant advantage in this trade.
I’m not going to use the second methodolgy because I don’t feel like researching what original draft position the Panthers had and the 3rd methodology’s results are typically pretty close to those of the 2nd.
3rd methodology –
Eagles get: Pick 43(470 pts), Pick 109(76 pts), 2009 1st(425 pts) = 971 pts
Panthers get: Pick 19(875 pts)
The Eagles still get the advantage here but it’s much closer. Unless we assume the Panthers were stupid or Heckert was the best GM ever, it’s pretty clear to me that both teams were considering the 2009 future pick as devalued. Now of course there are other factors involved: market value based on other trades in that year’s draft, how the team that is receiving the future pick views the roster and projected record of the other team, etcetera. Also, note that the 2008 trade was pre the new CBA and the slotted draft picks so the calculus does change slightly. However, it was only top 10 picks that received inflated contracts so that factor isn’t incredibly significant. Regardless, the point remains. It seems to me that in their negotiations both teams assumed a devaluation of the future picks. It may not be a full-round. That is a subject of negotiation between the two teams. It’d be enlightening to collate data on other trades that involved future picks and determine what the level of devaluation of future picks is if we assume both teams got equal value. I’ll let one of you get right on that.
I don’t doubt that teams sometimes devalue future picks. But, it’s rare and it rarely works out for the team that’s devaluing it’s own future high draft picks so that they can satisfy an immediate need.
Carolina turned a 2008 2nd and 4th round pick and a 2009 first round pick into Jeff Otah. We turned their first the following year into Jason Peters and we turned their second round pick (with the help of another trade down) into DeSean Jackson Mike McGlynn and Quentin Demps.
So what was the actual value of those picks when all was said and done? Man…if I needed a LT and Jason Peters was available in 2009 for my first round pick but I had traded that away plus also traded away a second rounder which could have become Matt Forte, DeSean Jackson or Calais Campbell (who were all taken within a few selections after my 2nd pick) and blew all that capital on a bust like Jeff Otah, because I thought a future pick was worth devaluing to get immediate return, I’d call myself stupid.
The Eagles robbed the Carolina Panthers in that trade and ended up with two of the best players on their team for the next 5-8 years and the Panthers ended up with one lame bust. The Eagles also swung and missed on McGlynn and Demps, but because they ended up with 4 picks (2 in premium slots) instead of blowing future value to consolidate a bunch of assets into one, they ended up with a potential hall of fame LT and the best deep threat in the game.
Further, we went into the 2009 NFL draft with a HUGE GAPING hole at LT with Tra Thomas leaving. That was our number one need. If we had just one first round pick that year we would have probably taken Michael Oher with that pick as he was by far the highest rated OT that was available at that pick. Instead since we had two first rounders because Carolina was short sighted enough to devalue their future pick we were able to obtain Jason Peters and use our first pick on a luxary item named Jeremy Maclin.
So the Eagles ended up with Jason Peters, DeSean Jackson, Jeremy Maclin, Mike McGlynn, and Quentin Demps by using the short sighted but commonly accepted belief that future picks are worth less than current picks.
And, the Panthers ended up with Micheal Oher by adhering to the philosophy that future picks are devalued.
I understand that you’re talking about how the teams come up with compensation, but it seems pretty clear to me that the value chart while decent at predicting around what it costs to move up in a draft, it does not correlate at all with the actual value that you end up giving up.
Also I think my example of simply trading picks for picks shows another flaw in the commonly accepted belief that future picks should be devalued.
What I think ends up happening is people fall in love with a certain player and feel over confident in their analysis and they do whatever it takes to get the very real player sitting in front of them just out of their reach and somewhat subconsciously discount the value of a future pick that they haven’t yet attached to a real asset.
And, I think you can tell that that’s the case because you rarely see teams just trade a 3rd for a first rounder two years later straight up. They don’t do that because on a one to one basis without a real life player attached to the move, they know deep down that those are not equivalent value. But once they’ve convinced themselves that a certain player is a sure thing, then and only then does the future pick get devalued.
Future picks are devalued because you have to pay a premium to get someone else that your trading with to delay their gratification while you get what you want in the immediate present, not because they actually have less value or should be devalued. And, in my mind, the easiest way to decrease your chances for success in the draft are to one, do just that, and lose sight of actual value while paying extra unnecessary premiums for immediate gratification and two, by over-valuing your own evaluations of any given player and your own ability to predict the outcomes of something that is only slightly more predictable than a crap shoot.
So when I say that I think the Eagles over paid, I’m talking about actual value, not market value.
And good catch on the 3rd rounder next year not being in the deal. My bad.
Devaluing future picks means that the pick we gave up for Bradford was really just a 3rd round pick — but given the consternation that caused around here, not sure that meshes with reality, or at least our perceptions.
It’s a huge risk. If it blows up, it’s probably Roseman’s job (unless Bradford or Daniels turn into franchise QBs to make up for it). He’s given us options for sure but we won’t be getting any help from the draft this year for starters most likely. Including QB.
Think these tables are a nice starting point, but the reality is they are meaningless – the market (or perceived interest) in the player set the price.
Eagles obviously felt this was the price that they needed to pay to get the QB they want and feel comfortable with that price. I think the deal is pretty fair considering those factors… eagles had to give up more value to spread the payment over 3 years, but it does allow them to mitigate the cost more over time via trades and free agency.
Good point about spreading the payment out over three years. It’s kind of like we financed this trade up with a short term mortgage/loan rather than emptying out all the spending money from our checkings and savings accounts all at once.
As with any loan, there’s going to be interest to pay. But, spreading it out like this really does make it more palatable. we Basically gave up one of our two 3rd rounders this year. That’s not devastating if just looking at it’s effect this year. We gave up next years 1st and 4th, again…sucks to not have a 1st next year, but that is pretty much a guaranteed part of any deal to move up to the top of the draft for a QB. And, Bradford could potentially be traded next offseason for a second rounder giving us 2 seconds to mitigate the loss of the 1st rounder. And, in 2018 we traded our second round pick which sucks, but doesn’t destroy us that year either.
We didn’t give up next year’s 1st and 4th. We get a 4th back from CLE. It’s conditional only in the sense that we get CLE’s lowest 4th round pick which is likely one of their compensatory picks(now tradeable).
we gave up this years 4th which was the first pick in the 4th round (the one we got when we traded Murray), and we get back a conditional 4th next year.
**I see after re-reading my post that I initially misstated that…it’s corrected now.
As some others have mentioned, The trade chart means nothing. It’s outdated and doesn’t allow market value.
If Wentz or Goff turn into a true franchise QB, I could care less about if we got “fleeced” based on some chart that hasn’t been updated in years.
In 3 or 4 years I wonder if we’ll look back at today as the beginning of the end of the Howie/Dougie regime (almost before it even began) or the beginning of a beautiful partnership carrying us to glory and success for a decade and beyond.
Yes
What about the middle?
Firing Howie and keeping Doug while still not having a franchise QB?
As long as we have a quarterback controversy I’ll know we’re still talking about the Eagles.
There’s a 3rd option.
Hired West Coast QB guru as HC – Check
Drafted QB at #2 overall – Check
5-11 this season followed by 5 years of the emotional torture of being almost good enough to win a Super Bowl but not quite – Anyone got a pen?
That could never happen…
I would consider NFC championship/SB appearances to be successes, personally.
I can only be one of the two
Let’s get real here;
how can I trade down from 77 to get at some other talent?
Round 1 Pick 2: Carson Wentz, QB, North Dakota State (A+)
Round 3 Pick 22 (HOU): Joe Haeg, OT, North Dakota State (B-)
Round 4 Pick 21 (HOU): Yannick Ngakoue, OLB, Maryland (B+)
Round 5 Pick 14: Kevon Seymour, CB, Southern California (A)
Round 5 Pick 20 (HOU): Willie Henry, DT, Michigan (B-)
Round 5 Pick 25: Brandon Shell, OT, South Carolina (B-)
Round 6 Pick 13: Keith Marshall, RB, Georgia (A)
Round 7 Pick 12: Henry Krieger Coble, TE, Iowa (A+)
Round 7 Pick 30: Aziz Shittu, DT, Stanford (B+)
What if…
What if the Eagles aren’t done yet? Maybe they don’t really want the #2 but took it to bait another team that really needs a qb? Could another trade be coming? My fantasy is that Howie knows for sure that Kaepernick is leaving SF and, as we speak, he is snookering Chip for a mega-deal where the Eagles get the #7 and a whole bunch of other picks. Or, Dallas knows Romo’s days are numbered and desperately want the #2, so the Eagles end up with the #4 and picks/players.
So, Howie either gets revenge on Chip or screws Jerry. Now that would be genius.
Did you just watch draft day?
Who do you think wrote the script?
Highly highly doubtful. Right before any deal is made, you know that STL was running it past other interested teams to see if they could beat the offer.
Yea, you’re right. I’m just messin’ around. But, still, what if…
Revenge is a dish best served with a Lombardi trophy
I hope you’re right.
I still like the idea of screwing Jerry, too.
I have no idea about wentz or goth.
I would say this is a “You know your coach was a former QB when…” moment.
Basically the future is gone till the team builds around wentz.
I’d be happier with the idea of building around a young qb if we didn’t give up all those draft picks.
yep…hard to build around someone when you don’t have any draft picks to build with. I guess the plan is to sit him for a year or two behind Bradford and Daniel and start building around him in 2018 and beyond. Sucks for the guys on this team that are in their prime now though like Jenkins, Barwin, Mathews, Kelce.
We have multiple young wide receivers, a young stud TE. Could use another RB. Brooks, Kelce, Johnson definately future on OL. Maybe Wis. two picks this year, and one each of next two years. We didn’t give up the farm.
I realize that we didn’t give up the farm, but the reality is that the chances of us adding any difference making type players has taken a hit for the next 3 years. This year our first is going to Wentz, our second is gone and after that we have a 3rd and 5th round pick. Those are typically depth or if your likely solid but unspectacular starter area as far as picks go. Next year we have no first. And, the following year we’re missing a second. That takes 4 premium picks (top 3 rounds) off the table to be used to build around a QB. That’s not insurmountable but it’s also not insignificant.
If Wentz becomes Ben Roethlisberger, it honestly doesn’t matter what we gave up…we won the trade. If not, we’re missing 4 young, cheap, premium prospects that would otherwise be in our system 3 years down the road. How good would this team be if you removed Lane Johnson, Jordan Matthews and Bennie Logan. Doesn’t destroy the entire fabric off our team, but that’s a substantially weaker team.
I get we’re giving up picks. We could re-coup that 2018 second between now and then. We still have the 3 and both 5s.
But it’s easier to say it’s bad when you’re picking three pretty good players as who we “miss”. We could just as easily pass Marcus Smith/Danny Watkins, Jaiquwan Jarrett and Josh Huff/Curtis Marsh/Teo.
I guess you hope to build something like Seattle did–you have a cheap but good young QB and a great D. We’ve obviously given up a lot of picks, but the players we signed on our D should still have some serious gas in the tank in a few years. Just have to bank on it all coming together.
Nah. Dont sweat it. Basically if its a good qb, you have 15 years of the guy. You will go through three full OLs, 5 rbs, 20 corners, 20 linebackers, 16 wr, 24 DT, 12 DEs and two kickers.
All told, one qb vs about 100 picks if it works out.
McNabb started from 2000 till 2010? Team had 76 picks in that time. Totally turned over.
So reminds me about building a house.
No chicken without the egg..
I raise chickens. Seriously. They only thrive in the right system.
First pick mock. Traded 79 to GB for 88 and 127 which is almost exactly trade chart value.
Your Picks:
Round 1 Pick 2: Carson Wentz, QB, North Dakota State (A+)
Round 3 Pick 25 (G.B.): Cyrus Jones, CB, Alabama (B+)
Round 4 Pick 27 (G.B.): Joe Haeg, OT, North Dakota State (A+)
Round 5 Pick 14: Malcolm Mitchell, WR, Georgia (A+)
Round 5 Pick 25: Daniel Lasco, RB, California (A+)
Round 6 Pick 13: Adam Gotsis, DT/DE, Georgia Tech (B+)
Round 7 Pick 12: Victor Ochi, OLB, Stony Brook (B)
Round 7 Pick 30: Antwione Williams, OLB, Georgia Southern (B+)
Got lucky landing Haeg late in the 4th. Obviously have to prioritze with not as many picks.
I dig it.
yes yes yes yes yes. but as you said, the haeg thing kills me.
switch him with cyrus the virus, and grab eric murray (CB from minnesota) later
Here was my shot
Your Picks:
Round 1 Pick 2: Jared Goff, QB, California (A+)
Round 3 Pick 16: Kenneth Dixon, RB, Louisiana Tech (A+)
Round 5 Pick 14: Isaac Seumalo, OG, Oregon State (B-)
Round 5 Pick 25: James Bradberry, CB, Samford (A-)
Round 6 Pick 13: Charone Peake, WR, Clemson (A+)
Round 7 Pick 12: Caleb Benenoch, OT, UCLA (C)
Round 7 Pick 30: Quinton Jefferson, DT, Maryland (B-)
I have to run and run and run simulations on there because the Rams keep taking Wentz.
I just stopped re-booting for that and assume Eagles take Wentz. That doesn’t affect rest of mock.
Traded down twice in the 3rd. Once with Vikings and another time with Carolina. Still got the O-lineman I want, a good pass rushing DE prospect, and some other pieces that might fit/stick on the roster.
Round 1 Pick 2: Carson Wentz, QB, North Dakota State (A+)
Round 3 Pick 30 (CAR): Joe Haeg, OT, North Dakota State (B)
Round 4 Pick 11 (NYG): Connor McGovern, OG, Missouri (A-)
Round 4 Pick 23 (MINN): Yannick Ngakoue, OLB, Maryland (A-)
Round 5 Pick 14: Paul McRoberts, WR, Southeast Missouri State (A+)
Round 5 Pick 21 (MINN): DeAndre Houston-Carson, FS, William & Mary (B)
Round 5 Pick 25: Travis Feeney, OLB/ILB, Washington (B+)
Round 6 Pick 13: Justin Simmons, FS, Boston College (B+)
Round 7 Pick 12: Aziz Shittu, DT, Stanford (C+)
Round 7 Pick 30: Deiondre’ Hall, CB, Northern Iowa (A+)
DHC, FS, W&M? Sounds A-OK.
Andre Johnson wants to play again. Since we have no draft picks, i’d consider.
Can he play o-line?
Why would he sign here and why would we sign an aging player on a 1 year short term deal?
This trade says the Eagles are building towards contending in 3-4 years time not in 2016. Why spend $$ on someone who is not going to be here in that window, or even be here to help the young QB with more weapons?
I mean they’re paying sammy B $20m. After last year feel like AJ won’t have many options, but would like to see him help out our WR corps.
If the rams Go Goff and We went Wentz Its bad for Bradford.
I think Bradford would look great in green; for the Jets.
did anyone sign Fitz yet?
Nope
So; better way to get value back for Bradford……….
– trade him going into or during this draft for a 2016 pick?
– trade him after this draft for a 2017 pick?
– trade him after this season for a 2017 pick?
– trade him after this season for a 2018 pick?
He’d net us back $1.5 mil vs. the cap if traded this year.
He’d net us back $17 mil vs. the cap if traded before 2017 starts.
Considering the going rate for Bradford is Foles and a 2nd rounder when folks know you have to cut him anyway; he should net us something back in a trade.
I don’t think we would get good value for Bradford. The general consensus seems to be that he’s overpaid and risky due to his extensive list of injuries. If we wait until 2017, we almost have no leverage at all as the expectation would be that Wentz/Goff will be the incumbent starter.
IMO, Bradford is just an expensive stop gap until Wentz/Goff takes over.
He’s not any more hurt or overpriced vs. the cap than he was when we traded for him.
True, I just don’t get the sense that he’s highly valued around the league. He shows glimpses of potentially being great at times, but it’s never consistent enough over a long stretch.
And I don’t think the Eagles have much leverage now since they have made it abundantly clear that they have no confidence in him developing into a franchise QB.
All true, but the Jets and Broncos can’t both get Lynch. I think you can get him moved.
I’m not trying to be greedy either. I’ll take a conditional 2017 pick that slides between a 4th and 2nd depending on his games played.
I just figured it would be better to get moving on that now.
I would take that deal too. I’d rather move on now -especially if his value is highest now. No point in delaying the inevitable. Just roll into next season with Chase Daniel and groom our rookie QB.
With us paying the 11mil signing bonus he is pretty cheap for any team trading for him in 2016 or 2017. We would get 10c on the $$ at the moment, but if we go 9-7 and he continues to not throw too many ints and remains healthy he will be an attractive option in 2017 to some teams.
When was the last time the Eagles had an even slightly quiet off-season???
From the outside looking in, it appears Lurie and crew are obsessed with keeping the Eagles in the news – regardless if it’s positive or negative.
2001 into 2002 I think.
That’s depressing and funny at the same time. I mean, even the Cowboys had a quiet year or two during that stretch.
Yeah. 2002 going into 2003 was the Trotter debacle. 03 into 04 was the TO year. Been a LONG time.
Quiet is quite boring.
2010?
tp
https://youtu.be/PdeXhJfpBcE
https://twitter.com/MattLombardo975/status/722956741810352128
Gee, that was hard to predict.
I’m sure Chase Daniels is thrilled too.
That was also part of the problem with doing this… weird logjam at the QB position and kinda hard to get out of. May not be the best of situations… Bradford could now be playing for his stats more than the team.
Or not to get injured.
Hard to lead the lockerroom. FO stays doing these QB dirty. Drop Foles now drop bradford.
Sam should continue to cash his million dollar checks and shutup and play ball. He’s no Tom Brady, and even the Pats finally drafted his possible replacement in the 2nd.
If Sam Bradford understood that a two year deal that allows the team to get out after one year was a long term commitment from the Eagles organization I fear he may have been poorly advised.
Yawn…
This day just gets better & better
https://twitter.com/Edwerderespn/status/722924725018570752
In the calendar year? Shocking, Ed, shocking.
Not a lot of football played in 2016 yet.
If they cut Carr they can probably just get enough cap space to make this work. But probably they would need to restructure Romo again…. and anything that makes them commit years into the future with him and his health seems to be a win for me.
It’s mere speculation on his part… Think Jags, Bears, 49ers more likely
all this guy wants is $$$$. there are but so many teams who can even get his attention. DAL is certainly not one of them
Heh, David Murphy is an ass:
http://mcnabborkolb.com/blog/2016/4/20/never-say-never-again
Tommy, could you post a review of the history of moving up in drafts to get a QB? In most cases, it doesn’t usually seem to work out super well for the team giving up a lot but I’d be interested in a formal review.
Memories where they got their QBs that had some real success: NYG get Manning, ATL gets Vick (though in both those the other team (SD for both) walked away with Rivers, Merriman, Tomlinson). Not so well seems too many to count
there are so few examples of team trading top 5 for QB’s to come to a conclusion…. RG3 and Sanchez are obvious busts, and i guess Manning with 2 SB’s in the end has to be considered a success. Vick was a success early.. but failed in the end.
I’m sure there are a lot more examples further back in time that I just can’t recall and don’t have time to research into. Trading up for Ryan Leaf is one that was certainly another stinker
The Manning thing is a weird one because Rivers is a better QB and NY probably would have won a lot more games with him. But who knows if he would have the Manning Luck ™.
I know I’m the only one that cares, but wanted to expand on the different methodologies for valuing future picks.
In the first methodology, a future 1st was not downgraded for being in a future draft and had the equivalent value of between the 16th and 17th pick in the 1st in the current draft. Same principle for later rounds.
The second and third methodology downgraded the value of a future pick by a round for each year it is out from the current draft. The only difference betw the 2nd and 3rd methodology was that the 2nd was based on the draft position in this year’s draft of the team trading the future pick while the 3rd used the between pick 16 + 17 logic. In the case of the Eagles at least, the results from the 2nd and 3rd methodologies weren’t that different as the Eagles’ original draft position in the round was 13.
The first methodology seems to overrate the value of future picks(based on actual trades in the draft) while the 2nd and 3rd methodologies underrate their value. While you could collate data from trades in previous drafts to determine a historical devaluation percentage, who has the time? It’s possible this year though, to look at the Rams-Titans trade and determine what the going market rate for future pick devaluation was.
We start with the assumption that the Titans and Rams received equal pt value in their trade. A debatable assumption I realize, but necessary for setting the market rate. We then look at the 2016 picks that each team received.
TEN receives: Pick 15(1050 pts), Pick 43(470), Pick 45(450), Pick 76(210) = 2180 pts
LA receives: Pick 1(3000), Pick 113(68), Pick 177(20.2) = 3088.2 pts
Therefore, the 2017 1st + 3rd combo that TEN received is being viewed as having a point value of 908.2 points(got this wrong in previous post as I accidentally used LA’s original pick(110) instead of one from TEN(113) in calculation)).
We then see what that combo would be worth using the first methodology below to determine the percent rate of devaluation. The first methodology would equate a 2017 1st as being worth 975 points. As far as the 3rd, while I would normally value it using the pick 16/17 assumption we know that if the Rams receive a 2017 3rd round comp pick then that’s the pick TEN will receive. It is likely that the Rams will receive a 3rd round comp pick as Janoris Jenkins’ contract was one of the bigger ones in FA. The first comp pick in this year’s draft has a value of 120 points. It will be slightly different next year because of the picks NE and KC forfeited this year but that’s the figure I’ll use for now. So, by the first methodology the 1st + 3rd combo the Rams receive would be worth 1020 points. That means that the agreed to rate of devaluation by TEN and LA is approximately is approximately 11.75 percent.
Now let’s apply that market rate of devaluation to the Eagles-Browns trade:
Browns receive: 2016 Pick 8(1400 pts), Pick 77(205), Pick 100(100 pts)
2017 1st = 975 pts * (0.882549) = approx 860.5 pts
2018 2nd(Note: 2 round out so devaluation multiple applied twice) = 425 pts * (0.882549) * (0.882549) = approx 331 pts
Total value = 2696.5 points(approximately)
Eagles receive: 2016 Pick 2(2600 points)
2017 4th(Note: Conditional pick – lowest in round so likley comp pick value) = 41 pts * 0.882549 = approx 36 points
Total value = 2636 points
It appears that the Eagles gave up slightly higher than market rate. However, the deal looks much more palatable once the market rate of devaluation is factored in compared to the first methodology.
Think the way teams do it is putting a range on where they predict the teams are going to be and go of the worst case (for the pick) scenario.
For the Eagles in 2017/2018 it is very possible we could win a weak NFC East and get to the play offs, but unlikely to make waves so i would value the picks as one in the 10-25 range.
If i was trading the for a Browns pick i would predict it to fall anywhere from 1-12, so so that would have different value to me if i was trading.
There are possible other factors involved that are part of the negotiation. It’s impossible to account for all factors. Looking at LA compared to the Eagles though I think it’s debatable about who will have the better record. I’d say LA’s talent level is higher but they play in a tougher division.
i’m sure i missed a lot, but what chart are you using for those point values?
I’m using the standard Jimmy Johnson trade chart at drafttek for the point values. There are some newer models out there but from what I’ve seen the Jimmy Johnson chart is still the one most teams apply.
i asked, and beg to differ, only because of the opposite party in this particular trade:
kevin meers is on the CLE staff, and wrote this in 2011. also, fwiw, howie is pretty wonky himself
https://harvardsportsanalysis.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/how-to-value-nfl-draft-picks/
Yes, I know, but Meers isn’t in any type of decision-making role.
I think geagle is the only one who could appreciate this volume of verbiage 🙂
It’s late at night. I’m just trying to help out anyone having trouble falling to sleep.
You might find this interesting given your interest in determining draft pick value. It’s a Berkley study from a few years ago looking at highly skilled professionals that make irrational decisions and why that happens. To study the phenomenon they did a retrospective analysis on NFL draft day trades and compared the conventional wisdom which tends to follow the draft value chart to actual historical outcomes and expected production as a function of draft position. Basically showing that there’s been an overwhelming trend of teams trading up and over-valuing the higher pick that they are receiving.
So much so that the first pick in the draft, despite having the highest expected level of production (and each subsequent pick following a clear trend to give lower expected production), when accounting for cost and looking at it from a value/cost-benefit point of view, it’s actually the worst or least valuable/cost effective pick in the entire first round. And that going by historical trade data teams that trade up on average assign a value equivalent to the 10th and 11th picks combine to the 1st overall pick or the last 4 picks in the first round combined.
They also look at the same comparisons for trades involving every selection in the draft. But, the cost of the higher/highest picks are shown to be so egregiously out of whack that it’s downright shocking that these types of trades are so predominant. Then they discus the psychology behind this type of irrational behavior and try to explain why GMs, who have ample resources to study this historical date don’t seem to learn and alter their behavior in a way to maximize their expected return on investment.
http://eml.berkeley.edu//~webfac/malmendier/e218_sp06/Thaler.pdf
The Charlotte Observer reports “8-9 teams” have contacted free agent
Josh Norman since the Panthers rescinded his franchise tag, including
the 49ers, Buccaneers, Steelers, and Dolphins.
Does Car go corner or tackle in the first?
Would be interesting to see Maxwell and Norman on the same team
wow, Chip could absolutely afford him. just wonder if he’d play there
#reps
By the way, there may not be football in a few years. Look what I saw at my kid’s gym.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0U42G_4yqQNTUhtOGVnbUZyZzA/view?usp=sharing
Those kids need to say f that and rebel.
If QB does not work out we just gave away the future for at least 4 years. We should go ahead and trade Cox because we are not competing for crap any time soon. If the QB don’t work out we are not competing for over 5 years.
Shut your dirty mouth. Fletcher Cox will retire as an Eagle and then we will retire his number.
I would Love to keep him but if this QB don’t work out or needs time to develop we waist his best years.
He’s 25. He might play for another ten+ years.
He might play for over 10 but if this QB don’t develop we are way over 5 years to recover. I also said best years basically his prime which is not going to be the next 10. We gave up a ton and mortgaged the teams future which was already hurting from Chip. So basically if this trade for a QB which most people agree needs time to develop and is not a top flight talent don’t work out we are screwed. I don’t want to trade him but if we are not going to compete what’s the point of ruining his career.
We certainly gave up a lot to move up 6 spots, but come on man. They gave up a 3 picks (a 3rd this year, a first next year, and a second in 2018). Realistically, that’s 2 good players and one bust. I think we’ll be able to recover in the next half decade.
Wow. You better stop now. In the last 20 minutes we went from 4 years to 5 years to way over 5 years. At this rate we will be the Browns by midnight.
Yeah, it is a little scary, but doesn’t this beat being the fringe playoff team hoping to get to the divisional round? This could make us great (or terrible).
I think many people discount the third possibility: maybe he’s not great and he’s not horrible and he turns out just okay.
Like the kind of guy Eagles fans swear is a top ten QB but everyone else has him around 15.
Use the #2 pick to get a centerpiece QB that is very good, but not great?
That could never happen…
Yeah if i’m cox i might wait and see how this plays out.
People talk about the odds against a 1st round QB working out, and they talk about the odds of a I-AA qb making it in the NFL, but what about the odds of success for a Div I-AA QB drafted in the first round?
1978 Doug Williams
1979 Phil Simms
1995 Steve McNair
2008 Joe Flacco
That’s pretty damn good imo.
It seems that the odds for QBs in the first round from div I-AA schools is much, much better than Div I schools.
(I was looking this up and someone else had already done the research: http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?179744-NFL-Draft-History-and-First-Round-FCS-Quarterbacks )
lol
http://herosports.com/collegefootball/fcs-has-quarterbacks-good-enough-for-2017-nfl-draft
The trend starts
All 4 appeared in superbowls, and 3 of them have Lombardi Trophies.
It would certainly be a bit of a stretch to predict that Carson Wentz will be the first Div I-AA QB drafted in the first round to NOT appear in a Super Bowl.
We’re talking about 4 Qbs EVER?
Good find!
Did any of them play D1 to start their career? Flacco was in Big East with either Pitt or Louisville before transferring.
My younger cousin said something that made me even more sad about the draft news today.
If the Browns don’t want Wentz then why should we take Wentz?
Because it’s the Browns
If the Browns don’t think he’s good enough then that says a lot.
Because of their excellent history of choosing and developing talent at the QB position?
browns-qb-jersey.jpg
While that may be true, Wentz wouldn’t even be the top QB in the last 3 drafts.
That doesnt really matter because those drafts are over. It depends more on the environment hes drafted into.
No it doesn’t.
Yeh, youre right, like always.
Last time I checked a true franchise QB elevated their team instead of making the team surround him with talent.
edit: worded very poorly.
Was talking about the staff/coaches around them not the teammates. Qbs worthy of a top 5 pick have talent but they need coaching/ right situation to maximize it.
You’re right but some of them need it more than others. Wentz is terrifying in that aspect since he’s almost as much as a project as terrible Hackenberg.
Yeh, its pretty terrifying but nothing can be done except wagch it play out and hope the Rams take him.
When have they ever been right about a QB? And they will be right back in this position in a few years
The Eagles don’t have a history of picking good QBs too.
The Eagles have taken 1 QB in the first round in like the last 40 years and it turned out ok.
Depends on what your definition of ok is.
Borderline Hall of Famer who threw for 37,000 yards? I’m not the biggest McNabb fan, but you have to give him at least “ok”.
Turned out GREAT. . made fat andy’s entire career
It does? I think you need some sleep…
That’s an excellent reason to want him. What would be more Cleveland Browns than to trade away a pick that chose a Hall of Fame quarterback?
Lets wait until Wentz plays a snap first.
When have the Browns nailed it @ drafting a qb?
The Browns wanted more picks. They have way more holes in their roster than we do, and the only way they could stock up is by trading a desirable asset (i.e., Wentz/Goff).
They needed a QB for a long time. The Browns have talent but the talent always leave since they can’t win.
They’re going the oft-injured retread route this year, like we did with Bradford. Might work, might not, but the two teams’ roster situations just aren’t equivalent.
Besides, by this logic (“If _____ passed on Player X, then we should too!”) no QB’s would get drafted, right?
Both teams needed a franchise QB and the Browns decided that Wentz isn’t good enough. Take it how you will since the risk is real with Wentz.
So why should the Eagles even bother evaluating QB’s themselves, since it’s clear you would rather they rely on the judgement of another team (one mired in perpetual failure, of all things)?
This is pretty inane.
A very desperate team that needed a franchise QB for decades just passed on him. If you watched any tape on Wentz then you should be scared as shit too.
So it’s really you don’t like him, not what the Browns think…
Totally fair, but not sure why the Browns opinion matters so much
Alright since you want it the simple way. The Eagles just traded up for a project QB.
Insane – FTFY
It can be two things.
Out of the mouth of babes, huh?
Should every team have the same evaluation of every player? Is that typical?
They shouldn’t but top 5 picks should have similar grades.
Becsuse browns’ history of being consistently wrong
Did another first pick mock. Liked this one better. Traded 79 to SF for pick 94 in 3rd round, the 7th pick in the 4th round, and the 6th pick in the 5th round. That’s a moderate overpay by the 49ers but that’s standard operating procedure for Chip so let’s screw him. This mock had the Rams take Wentz and I didn’t feel like running another iteration. Just assume we get Wentz. Didn’t get a premier CB but we already have good depth. Not likely to find starting CB in this draft anyway.
Round 1 Pick 2: Jared Goff, QB, California (A+)
Round 3 Pick 31 (DEN): Javon Hargrave, DT, South Carolina State (A)
Round 4 Pick 7 (S.F.): Joe Haeg, OT, North Dakota State (B+)
Round 5 Pick 6 (S.F.): C.J. Prosise, RB, Notre Dame (A+)
Round 5 Pick 14: Jihad Ward, DE, Illinois (A+)
Round 5 Pick 25: Travis Feeney, OLB/ILB, Washington (B+)
Round 6 Pick 13: Demarcus Robinson, WR, Florida (A-)
Round 7 Pick 12: Daryl Worley, CB, West Virginia (A+)
Round 7 Pick 30: Mike Thomas, WR, Southern Mississippi (A+)
Goff over Wentz? I like it already.
the all-visit team. I like it.
rd. 5, listenbee still available — you bite, or nah?
Robinson has visited too. From doing this mutlitple times, I know you’re more likely to get a good WR in Round 6 than a good LB.
Monte Carlo draft analysis
Domowitch: Eagles’ trade smacks of arrogance
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles/20160421_Eagles__trade_smacks_of_arrogance.html
Funny how a media member calls it arrogance that the team didn’t do what he thinks is best. Domowitch is the actual definition of arrogant person.
I tweeted to him the exact same thing. Fine to disagree with trade. But FO is arrogant because they did something you disagree with? Insert pot/kettle cliche.
It comes down to some in the media thinking Howie has no actual expertise, and that anyone could do his job just as good, if not better…after all, he’s not a football guy.
I wonder if Tommy has heard about the trade..
I bet he has something ready to post but he is dutifully reading all these comments first. So everyone stop posting please.
Ill bet a real dollar that Jeff and Howie will read Tommy’s take on the trade. .. which should come out in 8 minutes since it is 11:22 right now
Look Dougie P says our guy has all the tools and Dougie P should know he’s he’s backed up great QBs.
Between him and Reich, they’ve watched a lot of great QB play from the sidelines.
I thought about failure modes for Wentz. It’d be Chad Henne and JP Losman. Boller is more like Gabbert, so I didn’t include him. Josh Freeman? (In the sense that he doesn’t really read the field)
I mean…Wentz simply doesn’t compare well to Roethlisberger in that sheer strength and play through contact aspect (tho he does make good sideline deep passes like Roethlisberger). Flacco, Newton are both clearly better athletes. Josh Freeman has a better arm and better legs, and bigger when not on coke. Seriously though– Wentz plays mostly like Jason Campbell in the NFL. Whether he could actually play the way he has in the NFL is something I’m fairly dubious about. I strongly suspect that he doesn’t have the pocket presence necessary for it.
Blaine Gabbert is actually pretty big, so yeah, throw him in, as well.
Wentz has better 40, vert, broad, short shuttle, and same 3 cone compared to Flacco. How is Flacco the better athlete?
DONT YOU DARE USE FACTS
I think a significant motivation behind Eagles moving up for QB now, besides the fact that we’re drafting relatively high and that’s rare, is the age at the QB position throughout league and the fact that many teams will start to look for new franchise QBs soon.
NO – Brees
NYG – Manning
SDG – Rivers
PIT – Roethlisberger
DAL – Romo
ARZ – Palmer
Besides that there are several other teams with uncertain QB situations going forward
CLE, SF, CHI, MIA, BUF, NYJ
A couple of teams that are solid but may still be looking for upgrade or QB of future:
CIN
KC
If the Eagles were going to make move for fran QB and like Goff and Wentz well enough, this year was definitely the best year to do it.
I also think that may have been a factor in keeping Bradford for this year that I didn’t previously account for. Depending on his perfomance and if any of these older QBs retire, he could have more of a market than I previously anticipated.
ARZ/PIT/CIN will most likely play their selves out of draft position next year to grab one. They also need to rebuild the roster around them since it’s pretty old.
Wild cards are DAL/NYG, both teams can win the division this year and have some younger talent so trading up wouldn’t be that bad.
KC will probably just develop a project QB since Andy loves his projects.
CHI still has a stopgap in Cutler and are stuck in a similar situation of having holes to fill.
CLE, SF, and NYJ are the teams I would really be scared about. However, the Jets can take Paxton Lynch this year if not then they will likely be in the top 10 next year.
NO has to be factored in. Going to be very hard for them to re-sign Brees.
I don’t really have a feel for NO. The NFC South has been one of the most volatile divisions in the league. A good draft could make the Saints a pretty competitive team.
I’m watching Shefter talk on ESPN too, but thanks for the recap
NO also has Garret who they just took in the 3rd last year who they were very high on.
New post!