RGWentz?
Posted: October 20th, 2016 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 75 Comments »Carson Wentz is the real deal.
I’ve said that a few times. Fans certainly believe it. Most of the Philly media believes it. Many in the national media believe. It sure seems like Eagles players believe it. The Eagles have found their franchise QB for the foreseeable future. No matter what happens this year, that is great news.
But what about RG3?
Back in 2012 Robert Griffin III was the NFL Rookie of the Year and led the Skins to a 9-6 record. He ran for 815 yards (6.8 yards per carry) and finished with a passer rating of 102.4. RG3 was nothing short of sensational and it looked like he would be the centerpiece of the Skins franchise for a decade.
That’s not what happened. He only started 20 more games in Washington, going 5-15 and being more of a distraction and mediocre player than anything else. What’s to stop something like this happening to Carson Wentz?
First, the situations are very different. The Skins were coming off 3 straight seasons of 6 or fewer wins. They were more of a desperate franchise. Mike Shanahan was a veteran coach with a pair of Super Bowl rings. He had just gone through 2 of those losing seasons and found himself willing to make changes to get back to winning games. The Skins paid a massive price to move up in the draft and picked RG3.
Shanahan had run a certain type of offense for about 15 years. He wanted RG3 to play right away so he adapted the offense to be more the one his rookie QB knew from his days at Baylor. That’s smart coaching. Shanny and RG3 were on the same page early in the marriage.
But alas, like too many marriages, things did not stay so rosy. RG3 became a favorite of owner Daniel Snyder and they developed a cozy relationship. Shanny was a very demanding coach. RG3 was a star in college and not used to hard coaching. Shanahan and his son Kyle, the OC, worked on RG3’s mechanics and tried to develop him as a passer, while also relying heavily on the QB run plays that worked so well that year. RG3 did not care for the Shanahans over-bearing coaching. He preferred talking to Snyder and getting praised for what went right.
The Shanahans saw RG3 as being more interested in being a social media star and pitch-man for every product he could than developing into a top flight NFL passer. Sure, he was a great athlete and instinctive playmaker, but NFL history shows you those guys only go so far. You must be a consistent passer. Things really got contentions in the 2013 offseason when RG3, inspired by Snyder, demanded that the Shanahans remove the QB runs and focus on him as a passer. They knew he hadn’t worked hard enough in this area to succeed as a passer at that point.
Mike Shanahan wasn’t a fan of paying the steep price for RG3 to begin with. He did then embrace him, but the relationship didn’t go well because Shanny didn’t see the focus on football that he wanted. He also knew that RG3 and the owner were now pals, meaning Shanny’s boss was going to side with the star QB in any dispute. You can see where this became a toxic relationship very quickly.
There is also the injury factor. RG3 got hurt as a rookie during the season. He missed a game and Kirk Cousins played well in his absence, running more of the conventional Shanahan offense. That didn’t help the situation for either side.
Then in the playoffs there is the well-documented situation with RG3 playing hurt and whether he should have been on the field or not. He did tear his ACL and that proved to complicate matters. Instead of developing as a passer, RG3 was rehabbing. And he turned his rehab into a PR campaign, which you know drove the Shanahans nuts. More distractions for a young QB are just not a good thing.
Eventually the Shanahans and RG3 all lost their jobs in Washington. Mike is unemployed. Kyle is the OC for the Falcons. RG3 was benched, cut and is now in CLE (and hurt again).
Yes, Carson Wentz and RG3 were both the #2 overall pick. Both played well as rookies. That is about where things stop being similar.
The Eagles were all-in on Wentz as an organization. He wasn’t a Lurie pick or a Howie pick or a Pederson pick. The whole organization fell in love with Wentz. There won’t be a splintered situation here with Wentz playing the coach off the owner or vise-versa to try and get the upper hand in a situation. Everybody is on the same page.
Shanahan had to change his offense to fit RG3. One of the reasons the Eagles were so high on Wentz is that he fit what Pederson wanted to do. The Eagles are using a lot of the same concepts that Wentz did at NDSU. There won’t be a battle of wills for control of the offense.
Wentz was not a mega-star until he hit the NFL. RG3 was rated the #3 dual-threat QB in the country as a senior in high school. Every school had some interest in him, whether as a QB, WR or DB. He was a great athlete and very coveted. Wentz would have loved to have gone to a big school, but ended up at I-AA NDSU. And he sat there for 3 years. RG3 has a bigger ego and is used to being a star. Wentz is new to fame so he just doesn’t have the same issues.
Both players were guilty of being athletically arrogant when they hit the NFL. Both guys were so much better than the competition in college that they played with a sense of reckless abandon. RG3 was so fast and elusive, defenders couldn’t punish him. Wentz was big, strong and fast, able to get the best of the guys he faced. RG3 didn’t adjust when he got to the NFL. He took some huge hits. This happened several times in his rookie year and into the future. He didn’t want to slide and just didn’t appreciate how valuable his health was.
Wentz had the same issue earlier this year. He got hurt playing in the preseason opener and then took some dumb chances in the first couple of games. The good news is that Wentz seems to have learned. He has run out of bounds or gotten down quickly in the last few games. You have to shut off your college instincts and realize this is the NFL, where a NT can chase you 20 yards downfield and destroy your leg.
The other huge difference is that Wentz is all-in on football. He isn’t doing a ton of commercials. He isn’t on Twitter trying to develop a brand. Wentz is at the NovaCare Complex early and watching tape with Chase Daniel. He knows talent got him here, but it isn’t enough to get him where he wants to go. You must work incredibly hard during the week to be ready for Sunday.
I think Wentz is a better fit for the organization, I think he’s a better fit for the scheme and he seems to get the big picture. He’s taking care of himself on the field and working hard off it to be ready for when gameday rolls around. There are no guarantees that he will pan out exactly as hoped (4 MVP awards and 8 to 10 Super Bowl titles), but he is not headed down the same path as RG3.
*****
Interesting piece here from Zach Berman on Sam Bradford from over the summer.
“I just feel probably more comfortable than I have in the past several years,” Bradford told the Inquirer that day. “And so I just think going into Year 7, I feel like I’ve seen a lot football. I’ve been a part of a lot of football. I feel my overall comfort level in the huddle, on the field, is probably at an all-time high compared to where it’s been in the past.”
Bradford overflowed with optimism that afternoon. He explained that he could finally enjoy good health, how he fit into the scheme that Doug Pederson introduced, why the last seven games of 2015 should have offered encouragement, and how stability away from football would help him in on the field.
He felt at ease in the Philadelphia area, mastering the route from his South Jersey home to the team’s facility. He developed meaningful relationships with teammates. And he was a newlywed who looked forward to returning to a wife and two dogs each evening.
After injury and upheaval during the previous three years, Bradford sounded blissful. It was pointed out that the Eagles disrupted the harmony by drafting Carson Wentz and leaving his future uncertain.
“If that’s the worst that happens to me,” Bradford said, “I think I’ll be all right.”
The Eagles traded Bradford three days later.
I do believe Bradford was a different guy this summer. The demand for a trade was a dumb moment for him, but neither he nor the Eagles let that situation get out of hand so the relationship was repaired. Smart on both sides. We’ll never know how he would have played for the Eagles, but I’m guessing he would be having a good year.
Having Wentz and the 1st round pick is better, though.
This is one of those situations that really did seem to benefit everyone involved.
_
[…] Tommy Lawlor Carson Wentz is the real deal. I’ve said that a few times. Fans certainly believe it. Most of […]
I love that he’s capable of running but it isn’t a crutch for him. Even when he does break the pocket he tends to run parallel to the LoS in hopes of finding someone downfield ala Aaron Rodgers (not saying he’s that good, just has a similar style in that regard). He just makes phenomenal decisions that I had no expectation of him making at this point. He’s far more advanced than I anticipated. I think most of us thought he’d be more of a project than a polished prospect.
Having said that, I’m really hoping he doesn’t develop bad habits as a result of this terrible OL play w/o Lane.
Way too soon to conclude that the OL will be terrible with Vaitai taking over for Lane.
..
A 5th round rookie OT, making his debut on the road in a big division game probably isn’t the best way to judge what we really have in Vaitai… As he gets more and more comfortable with each week that passes, hopefully he proves to be much more capable than we currently think… It is certainly possible that he will prove to not be good enough, but we really don’t know that at all right now ..
..
The growth rate Vaitai displays the next few weeks will be so much more important than how he looked in the Washington game,
I’m not writing Vaitai’s football obituary nor am I trying to pretend to know things will be as bad as they were last week. I’m just saying I hope that situation – developing bad habits thanks to poor OL play – doesn’t happen. Andrew Luck looked to be the next Peyton Manning until he was thrust into the position he is now in. He’s far more of a gunslinger than a cerebral QB than anyone expected and I think a large part of that is the coaching and OL play he has received. Thankfully, our coaching seems to mesh perfectly with Wentz. Now we just need to hope the OL holds up.
I feel 100% safe in saying this guy (Wentz) is our future. I would love for Vaitai to turn a corner and be our future at RT.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/ready-for-the-chip-kelly-back-to-college-chatter-49ers-could-have-an-opening/
It has begun.
I hate Chip Kelly the NFL coach…but would be in love with Chip Kelly the head coach of the Nittany Lions.
“”He just keeps running the same shit and it isn’t fooling anybody,” one NFL executive said.”
Wonderful comment.
Dont care where he goes..let him live his great life.
I do not think Wentz is the next RGIII. I do believe Wentz will pan out to a certain level regardless of what happens.
However, the key, as it always is, remains how well the Eagles organization does in building a team around him to help him develop/succeed and so the team can become a consistent winner. And they need to do it asap because the major advantage of a young QB is their cheap contract under the cap. Once we have to pay Wentz the normal franchise QB rate, the team will then be harder pressed to effectively build around him.
The comparison relevant to Wentz may be Luck eventually. You see a QB who can run the offense, make all the throws, command respect etc., but the team around him is mediocre and thus the team does not win. Luck got paid and the Colts have a franchise QB, but they are going nowhere. That is my greatest concern with the Eagles and Wentz.
Sure, yes, we may have our franchise QB, but football is a TEAM sport and we need a team to win.
Andrew Luck = Eli Manning
Although, Eli still has two more Superbowl wins than Philly, so I’d take that!
The Giants won 2 Superbowls despite Eli, not because of him.
Okay, sure – just the guy throwing all those passes. Believe what you want – he won the games.
Yes, he won the games, as did every other player on their roster that has a ring. Is Eli the reason they won the games, absolutely not.
Proving the saying, Defense Wins Championships. Those Giants teams were part of the rule, not the exceptions.
Thing is, we already have pieces on Defense. We have a Franchise DT. We have a young, promising MLB. We have two good Safeties who can play five or six more years (in theory). We have a good DE. What we need is one good CB (Carroll and McKelvin are ok as #2s, Mills could develop into a CB #2 or 3) and this Defense has the pieces to be around Top 10 any given year.
We have our future LT under contract for a long time. We have a very good #2 WR in Matthews. Need that #1, we can have hope DGB develops into this role. We have a good, young TE (altough I don’t think he’ll ever be elite).
Long story short: of course, we need to draft well year in, year out. You always have to do that in the NFL. It will be more complicated to build a roster as soon as Wentz signs his deal, no doubt. But: we have him under control for 6 years. 4 years, 5th year option, Franchise Tag. I think if Wentz continues to play this way, Howie will sign a deal after year 3. He has 2 cheap years leverage + the tag. You can get a reasonable deal done with this kind of leverage (won’t be cheap nonetheless, don’t fool yourself).
The difference between the Colts and us is that the Colts had a terrible roster when they drafted Luck. They were the #1 overall pick for a reason. After Manning went down, there wasn’t much talent. They drafted terribly and never fixed their OL and their Defense. They never had an elite RB. All they had was Luck, good WRs and a very good CB in Davis. And they still reached the CCG. They got destroyed there two times, but that was their ceiling.
Now, Luck regressed a bit. But the biggest problem was drafting and coaching. I don’t think Pagano is even a solid HC, imo one of the worst in the league. Grigson can’t fix the problems on the roster. Luck won despite all of this. He can’t do it since last year.
We have to hope that Douglas and Weidl will improve our scouting and Howie keeps listen to them and keeps dealing like he did this offseason. We’ll be alright then, as long as Pederson keeps showing signs of being a good, at least solid HC and we have a good DC.
Very valid points. I agree our roster appears to be further along than Indys, but my point was where Indy is now is my greatest concern for the Eagles & Wentz. We may not be there now, but we’ve got work to do to avoid that ditch. Roseman needs to draft well and manage the roster contract allocations effectively.
For me Wentz passes the eye test and has that fabled “it”…whatever “it” is, he seems to have it.
The key will be stability and I mean good stability, not whatever that crap is in Indianapolis. If we can keep the same offensive coaching staff and improve the players around him without it turning into a constant revolving door, Wentz should continue to progress.
Regardless of the crappy outcome of the previous two games, Wentz has shown some amazing ability. I’m really excited for the future and feel like we finally have our franchise quarterback.
Mastering your commute –> finally learning how to play QB
One could read your detached narrative, Tommy, and conclude that Dan Snyder had a role in Griffin’s downward spiral, but I think that could be viewed as a kind synopsis. Snyder has spared no expense in trying to get his beloved Redskins to the top of the summit, displaying an almost obsessive reliance on spending…on FA’s, on HC’s, on former HC’s to serve as coordinators and position coaches. His mantra seemed to be that whoever spends the most wins the most. Couple that approach with a child’s impatience and an apparent unfamiliarity with groupthink dynamics and workplace atmospherics, and you get a dysfunctional franchise where an owner and his QB are BFF’s.
I am in no way relieving Griffin of his central role in his situation. I cannot excuse his stupidity and callous me-first personality, but when a young person is coddled and pampered and given what he wants by those in his immediate surroundings, adults who should know better, you end up with outsized egos with little self-awareness. Many exceptional athletes in our culture suffer these flaws because they were handled the very same way.
I think that whether we win or lose is less important than how we win or lose. If the team comes out sloppy with lots of penalties or the defense looks like it’s getting run over by a mac truck again, I might start reconsidering how happy I am with the Schwartz and Pederson hires… But it’s still early. Lots of season left for evaluation, but I’m not sure how well 3 strait messy games would sit with me.
“Having Wentz and the 1st round pick is better, though.
This is one of those situations that really did seem to benefit everyone involved”
..
Im cutting my reading down to once a day… but thats why i will always read and once our momentum is going again I’ll be reading re-rereading and re re re tard reading again
This was the stupidest topics I have ever seen addressed on this site…. Talk about apples and watermelons
.
The reason I wasn’t impressed while the world was going gaga over RG3’s rookie year is because I knew that the style of play he used to be successful was NOT conducive to sustained NFL success… There was only so long that the NFL would let RG3 get away with running around using zone reads like a chicken with its head cut off, while throwing to his first read all season.. There was no doubt that he would have some serious developing and evolving to do if he was going to sustain that level of QB play, and he never even flashed as much as a hint of him developing his pocket QB ability.
..
Wentz is almost the opposite, he can run, he can use his physical ability to make plays, but his QB intelligence and ability From the pocket is what has led to the “Wentz Wagon” hype, and those skills that made him successful, will always translate to NFL success…Wentz is using his legs to make plays at a drastically lessor rate than rookie QBs like mariota, RG3 and Cam who had to rely on their rushing ability so much more than what we are seeing from Wentz…. As gifted as Wentz is physically, his QB intelligence, accuracy and work ethic is what has made him special
..
Do we know that Carson won’t regress? no, we don’t know that, but if he does fail, it willl be for reasons that have little to do with why RG3 has imploded… The style of play he had initial success with was obviously not sustainable… That is an issue we don’t need to worry about with Wentz
..
Apples and watermelons
I think RG3’s failure is also indicative of how important it is to have the right coaching staff. Potential is a fragile thing. I have a lot more confidence in Doug than I would ever have in Shanahan, or his kid.
Shanahan’s kid isn’t doing so bad in ATL right now. RGIII was as much of the problem as Shanny was. I think thankfully Carson has a different mindset.
Yeah, sounds like RG3 never even really allowed shanny to coach him…. It doesn’t matter what type of coach you have. If the QB won’t allow himself to be coached, and uses his relationship with the owner to circumvent the coaches authority, you are doomed as an organization no matter who your coach is..
,,
Lol RG3 stormed into the coaches office and gave a PowerPoint presentation on the plays he was no longer willing to run, demanding them removed from the playbook…. Basically he didn’t want to run around any more, which sounds great, unless your a grossly flawed and underdeveloped as a pocket passer. Basically he demanded that he no longer run the plays he was actually good at executing, and shanny was aware of the fact that to he wasn’t ready to be the pocket passer he was demanding to be..
.
I wouldn’t want Shanny as our coach, but he was set up to fail with diva Rg3, dan Synder, and no draft picks.. I blame him less than the other two stooges
Would be great if we could pull out a W Sunday, even though i like sammy dollaz, would be a hell of a “get back” game.
Unlike WAS, Minny has a terrible OL so hopefully we can feast.
I like sam too, but on sunday I hate him.
Build Wentz an Elite OL and we won’t have to worry about some RG3 type implosion… The tell tale sigń of a clueless media member is when they put too much important in who has the best big name weapons, when NFL games are primarily decided in the trenches,
.
typically NFL WRs,TEs and RBs will get open given enough time to work from the Offensive line dominating in pass protection. Just look at the Cowboys passing game. Without DEZ bryant, their weapons are nothing Special at all.
.
Witten is old as dirt and a gloriied safety net at this stage of his career
Cole Beasley is a nice little weapon out of the slot, but he isn’t anything
special that can carry a passing game.
..
Terrence Williams: would you trade jordan Mathews or DGB for terrence Williams? Of course not…
.
Brice Butler is a nice young speed weapon who can be a solid #4 WR, but he ISNT scaring anyone either
..
As a whole, I’d call that an average group of weapons, yet the dallas passing game is doing just fine without DEZ Bryant, mainly because of the Offensive line giving Dak enough time and he has taken advantage of it making the right throws
.
On the opposite end of the spectrum we have the Colts who have the QB, they have enough weapons in place yet they are a disaster because their OL needs some serious help. Allegedly the coach and GM have been at odds over this same topic with Grigson prioritizing weapons, while the coach wanted OL help
…
Look at the Giants compared to Cowboys. Odell, Sterling, Cruz are so much better than Cole Beasly, Terrence Williams and Brice Butler. It’s not even close, big advantage to the Giants, yet I view the Giants as one of the easiest games on our schedule, and I see Dallas as a way tougher test, and it really only comes down to 1 reason.. The trenches!
..
There is no need for me to fear ODB or give a shit about the Giants dangerous weapons, when I already know and it has been proven repeatedly that Newhouse,Jerry, Richburg, PUGH, and Flowers CAN NOT BLOCK THE EAGLES Defensive Line…. Yet the lessor Cowboys weapons worry me a lot more because the dallas OL has won its share of Battles against our DL..
..
So when it comes to Wentz’s future, because of the age of some of our starting offensive lineman, our primary focus this offseason should be stock piling an excessive amount of OL talent… I’d like to draft two future starting OLineman, while also bringing back veterans JP and Barbie doll for another year assuming they sustain their level of play and health throughout this season… Even if Seumalo and Vaitai prove to be future starters, I’d still want to add two more OL. I want to see the offensive line be one of our deepest and most talented positions of the 2017 Eagles… Once we have Wentz and a young Elite OL in place, we will be relevant for the next decade
Eddie Lacy needs surgery, he has been placed on IR
..
Hopefully the Packers won’t have rebounded and gotten their act together by the time they come to Philly.. I’d consider us a 4 or 5 point favorite if Green Bay was coming to philly this weekend
Im not convinced we can cover Nelson and Cobb and whatever no named WR they throw at us
If the packers OL doesn’t get healthy and start playing well, all the flashy weapons in the world won’t mean much, especially on the road
didn’t the Packers cut one of their OL starters right before the season?
sounds like a Chip Kelly move
All pro Josh Sitton left guard
the eagles will not be favored over anyone the rest of the year, save the giants maybe.
You’re probably right, though if they play strong they could end up as favorites at home over the ‘Skins. Still, I don’t want to upvote because you’ve ruined my day.
they traded for Davis RB from Chiefs. I don’t know if he’s any good, but they tried to lessen the loss.
Not as good as spencer ware who isn’t as good as jamaal charles.
I hope Wentz and RG3 have a rookie season in common. I”ll be psyched if the Eagles go 9-6, and thrilled if Carson is ROY. Especially because he would beat out Zeke Elliott.
Not sure if 9-7 will qualify for the Playoffs as I don’t think Chase frigging Daniel will win the other remaining game of the regular season.
Interesting read.
http://www.dailynorseman.com/2016/10/20/13326672/minnesota-vikings-philadelphia-eagles-week-7-preview
It was OK. The best part was in the picks section at the end though.
“Buccaneers over 49ERS
Why does picking the winner of this game feel a lot like voting in the upcoming election?”
“Shanahan had to change his offense to fit RG3. One of the reasons the Eagles were so high on Wentz is that he fit what Pederson wanted to do.”
I believe the term you’re looking for is “dumb down” in terms of what Washington did for RGme.
Random hypothetical:
Kendricks and a 3rd for Brandon Marshall. Do you pull the trigger?
No, Marshall will be 33 next year with a $7.5M salary. Kendricks for Marshall without the 3rd would be OK.
I’d do a deal for Eric Decker, still in his prime plus “value”. Not going to help you this year but who cares about this year really.
his hip and shoulder just fell off
That made me chuckle.
like a spree shooter
I think he said he will retire if he gets traded again
The lb?
The key difference is that a lot of RG3’s success could be attributed to his running. He was never able to develop into a QB who could stay in the pocket and slice defenses.
So far, Wentz has shown that he is capable of staying in the pocket and making plays.
“success” based on running is fleeting and the ultimate NFL version of fool’s gold.
Correct. Wentz has shown us he can succeed without relying on his legs, so I’m not too worried.
Yup. That’s the next level type play we need from him.
“Last week against Washington was a much different story. With rookie
Halapoulivaati Vaitai (aka Big V) in for Johnson, the Redskins brought
extra blitzers on only five of Wentz’s passes. They still pressured
Wentz on 38% of his dropbacks and recorded five sacks.” — yuck
Wentz should be able to learn how to unload the ball earlier in the future to cut down on some of those sacks. Especially the last two.
Unload it to who? Covered receivers who can’t win one-on-one matchups? Or unload it like Eli or Luck into double and triple coverage and pray the ball isn’t intercepted? Or just throw it out-of-bounds?
If the line cannot block, it’s up to Pederson to adjust the playbook and/or replace ineffective players more so than Wentz getting rid of the ball earlier. Now if the line blocks better, I agree it falls on Wentz’s shoulders to get rid of the ball faster to avoid getting hit.
Throwing it out of bounds would be preferable to taking hits. Either we save the yards or we draw roughing flags.
I totally hear you on the WR issues and playing calling adjustments needed.
Throw it at players’ feet like eli does 10 times a game.
https://twitter.com/BrandonGowton/status/789111538846167041
Please make it happen Doug. We need change and we need it NOW.
He played 81% of the snaps last week and supplanted Ags in 2 receiver sets.
And would have had a decent gain if not for a bad call on Wendell Smallwood.
81% is not either of these
99.99%
100%
You can’t tell me what to feel!!
I feel the same way.
The most underrated part about DGB is his YAC ability. He has already broken more tackles than Ertz has in his whole Eagles career
Sad but so true.
学习带来乐趣，谢谢博主！
Old friend Matt Barkley is about to get into the game for the Bears after the Packers may have killed Brian Hoyer.
Didn’t realize he was on the bears till now
I’m not sure what Rodgers looks like with a week’s preparation in between games, but if tonight’s game is any indication, I totally get why he suddenly looks like a normal human being. His receivers get no separation, he has no running game, and his receivers apparently have butter fingers.
I’m not sure what Wentz looks like with a week’s preparation in between games, but if tonight’s game is any indication, I totally get why he suddenly looks like a normal human being. His receivers get no separation, he has no running game, and his receivers apparently have butter fingers.
And we have BTB 110yd penalty games…Heard Morelli had to have rotator cuff surgery after that lions game.
(that was kind of my point of pointing that out).
So I had this thought… If I were Carson Wentz, and I knew I was getting drafted in the first round, I wouldn’t want to go to Cleveland, the place where all hopeful qbs go to die. So when I visit the Browns, I’d want to look not worthy of a number 2 pick. If Wentz actually did this, it would be really smart. Wentz is really smart… Might explain why the Cleveland scouts loved him and the rest of the team couldn’t see what the scouts saw.
That’s… very creative.