Sunday Draft Review
Posted: April 30th, 2017 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 348 Comments »
The draft is over. The UDFAs have been signed. Let’s take a look at everything and I’ll offer some thoughts.
The picks:
1 – DE Derek Barnett – Tennessee – 6-3, 259
2 – CB Sidney Jones – Washington – 6-0, 186
3 – CB Rasul Douglas – West Virginia – 6-2, 209
4 – WR Mack Hollins – North Carolina – 6-4, 221
4 – RB Donnel Pumphrey – San Diego State – 5-8, 176
5 – WR Shelton Gibson – West Virginia – 5-11, 191
5 – LB Nate Gerry – Nebraska – 6-2, 218
6 – DT Elijah Qualls – Washington – 6-1, 313
Barnett can come in and challenge for a starting role right away. We know Brandon Graham will have one spot. Chris Long, Vinny Curry and Barnett will battle for the other spot. Barnett is young, but played a lot of football in his 3 years at Tennessee. He was highly productive. He is not a developmental pick (like Alex McCalister last year or Gerry this year). Barnett doesn’t have to change his body or his position. He’s coming here to contribute right away, whether as a starter or role player. He will get as much playing time as he earns. Or as little.
Should Jones play this year? Jimmy Bama wrote an interesting piece saying the Eagles should sit Jones…but for financial reasons not medical ones. This is an interesting argument that does make a lot of sense. I don’t know if that would be the right decision, though. The ultimate goal with Jones is to develop him as a football player, not being the best long term contractual position. Jones might benefit from getting on the field in 2017, even if we’re talking about being mixed in on a situational basis. Notice I said “might”.
You have multiple things to consider with Jones. First, there is the physical side of his rehab. He needs to get better and eventually go test his leg. He can run full speed on his own, but might benefit from being in a competitive environment like practice or a game. Most players won’t push themselves the same way in a workout as they would when going against another player. There is also the mental part of rehab. Jones has to develop confidence in his leg. That could be a slow process. If he starts that now, it could help him. If he first goes against good competition in the spring of 2018, that would be a long layoff.
There is also the football side. Jones might benefit from playing/practicing some this year. He would have ups and downs, but could learn from that and apply those lessons in 2018.
The Eagles love his long term potential. They are not going to rush him back. That said, they might think getting some action in this year is the best thing for his long term development. The key to all of this is how Jones heals. If there are any setbacks, sitting him the whole year makes a ton of sense. If he feels all the way back by mid-October, that leaves a lot of season to be played. It might be worth it to get him on the field.
I guess the other consideration in all of this is how Patrick Robinson, Jalen Mills, Ron Brooks and Rasul Douglas are playing. If they are actually getting the job done, you may want to leave them alone and not mess with a good thing. This doesn’t seem like a likely scenario, but why ruin things with reality?
Douglas will have a chance to compete for a starting job. I don’t think his transition to the NFL will be as easy as Barnett’s, but he will have much weaker competition. And I do think Douglas has the kind of competitive personality that will help him to battle for a job rather than settling for learning as a rookie. He will want to play.
Hollins will be on the field right away on STs. He can be a situational receiver. They got Bryce Treggs just before the start of the season and mixed him into the offense. Hollins will have a whole offseason and he will have the same type of role. He will be out there to run a few routes, likely with a focus on going deep. Obviously that won’t be all he does, but I think that he’ll run more vertical routes than anything else.
It took me a while to figure out who Hollins is like, but I finally did. He reminds me of a pair of former Chargers WRs. Malcom Floyd and Kasim Osgood were both about 6-5, 210. Floyd was a terrific #2/#3 receiver for years. In 11 years, he caught 321 passes, including 34 TDs. He averaged 17 yards per reception. Floyd never caught more than 56 passes in a season, but he was part of a good passing attack. Osgood only caught 45 passes in his 12-year career. 28 of those came in his first 2 years. At that point he and the Chargers realized he should focus on STs and he was great there for the rest of his career.
Howie Roseman said Hollins is not here just to be a STer. The Eagles see him as potentially a future starter. At his best, he would probably be Floyd, catching 40 passes for 600 yards and scoring 4 or 5 TDs. If he struggles as a receiver, he could still turn out to be someone like Osgood. That’s not ideal for a 4th round pick, but if he stuck around for a decade and was a critical part of a very good STs unit, that is more valuable than you think.
I need to write a long post on Pumphrey. He is too complex a subject to discuss like this. Joe Douglas did make one key point.
#Eagles Joe Douglas on Donnel Pumphrey: "Don't let size fool you. He's a little dog who thinks he's a big dog and plays that way."
— Dave Weinberg (@PressACWeinberg) April 29, 2017
It is easy to compare Pumphrey to Lorenzo Booker, the former Eagles minicamp legend. Pumphrey is small, but he is not a finesse runner. Booker (5-10, 191) was completely a finesse runner. He was good in space, but struggled in traffic and didn’t want to get hit. Pumphrey plays bigger than he is. He doesn’t shy from contact. He’s not taking on defender like Leonard Fournette, but isn’t running out of bound or out wide on every play either. He wants every yard he can get.
I still have concerns about spending a 4th round pick on a 176-pound RB, but Joe Douglas is correct in his evaluation that Pumphrey doesn’t play small. That gives him a chance to make it in this league. Attitude plays a huge part. DGB has great size, but doesn’t consistently play big. He will break tackles when he has the ball, but watch him compete for a jump ball against a 5-10 CB and you’d think they were the same size.
The Eagles wanted speed. They got Gibson. Like Hollins, he can stretch the field. There is a big difference in the two guys. Hollins is a vertical threat. Gibson is a threat every time he touches the ball. Not only is he fast, but Gibson is quick and very elusive.
@BIrvin_WVU11 Tell Reggie to scoop up @sheltongibson another WVU mountaineer☠️ pic.twitter.com/9y4j1r6HLj
— ♕RJ✭✭♚✭✭RIMANDO♕ (@Rimando408) February 28, 2017
Gibson can be a good situational receiver this year. He could be the KOR as well. Down the road, I think he could be a starting WR.
Can Nate Gerry make the transition from S to LB? The Eagles think so and I agree. He is 6-2, 218. You can play LB in the 225 to 235 range these days. Heck, Willie T. was 6-2, 220 when he came into the league and I’d say he had a pretty darn good career. Gerry isn’t going to get much bigger. He already has a thick neck and that tells you he’s filled out on his frame for the most part. Some guys are his size naturally and others are that size after bulking up. He had to work for his size.
I didn’t like this LB class very much. There just weren’t guys I found compelling. One thing I wanted was a player who used his hands well. You must be able to grab runners and receivers and tackle them. Too many LBs love to hit with their shoulders or use their arms like a club. i prefer LBs that use their hands. Makes you less likely to miss tackles. Gerry did a good job of this and that impressed hem.
He plays with a lot of attitude and that will help him in the transition. LBs have to be tough. It helps when they are mean/nasty. Gerry fits that profile. You watch him play and he looks like a jerk. I love that. It is possible that he won’t make a good transition to LB. He can move back to S. Gerry could be an effective backup in the NFL and could be very good on STs.
I thought DT Elijah Qualls was good value in the 6th round. I had him rated higher. I think the primary reason he fell is size. He’s short at 6-1. He has a lot of bulk on that frame at 313 pounds. And keep in mind that this was him being in good shape for the Combine. Maybe most importantly, he has short arms. They are just a notch under 32 inches.
You want OL and DL to have long arms so they can engage the player across from them and keep that person from getting into their frame. Qualls can get engulfed by blockers due to his short build and/or short arms. This wasn’t a huge problem in college, but the NFL is very different. When you go against the best of the best, every little thing can make a difference. Qualls short build won’t be as much of an issue in the Eagles scheme. He will be allowed to attack off the ball and shoot gaps. His job is to beat blocks rather than taking them on. I’m excited to see how he does in an aggressive scheme.
***
This post went longer than expected so I’ll write about the UDFAs later.
_
Always the best! Nice review, Tommy!
I was thinking the same thing.
I think the financial decision on Jones will likely align with the football decision. Highly unlikely a rookie cb comes back from an injury like this at full strength, and ready to make a significant contribution.
Considering the quality of our corners, it’s possible Jones on a learning curve will be better than who is on the field.
Quite possibly. But he’s not going to come on and carry the team on a playoff run.
Agreed.
Gerry’s attitude definitely pops out in tape. Pretty sure they are looking at him as another st staple. Maybe nickel lb as well. It’s looking like the team is hoping to save some money on special teamers without losing impact.
Makes you think they are maybe trying to follow a curve here. More TEs are coming out that can really run and catch, like Howard, Njoku and even Engram to the Giants this year, and they play an increasingly larger part in the passing game because they become mismatches with slower linebackers who also have to play they run, and because the rules just favor passing more these days. So maybe you need these linebackers who are essentially beefed up safeties, who can run and cover, but who still have the attitude to plug the hole and bring down a runner. Undersized players with tremendous speed and quickness like Honeybadger or this years Peppers are suddenly finding themselves in demand, and I imagine they though they were getting a player like that in Gerry, only much later in the draft. He might turn out to be a dude, why not.
If he could cover, he’d still be playing Safety….
… If he could cover receivers, sure.
13 INTs.
..probably not in single coverage though. As a LB he will have to cover TEs and RBs man to man.
The saints ” brandon cooked ” us with lattimore. Called it 2 months ago
And yet hes not even on the Saints
He’s not?
Patriots! So they traded up for cooks and cant even retain him in a few years.
Brandon Cooks is the verb in that sentence. It isn’t about him, it is about how they stole the guy we were targeting just before our pick.
It is small consolation that they messed up our pick and then frittered away the player. That might make it worse.
Apparently they got cooked with Mahomes.
Saints had the draft we should’ve had.
Picking 0 WRs?
I will shed exactly zero tears when the Saints can’t make the playoffs this year because their top corner isn’t playing and they’re getting smoked by the Bucs, Panthers, and Falcons. Muwhahaha
I dont have any issue with Jones sitting the year. Once he was injured I had already assumed that he would miss his season.
The Eagles got Douglas who is a good scheme fit to play this year and a couple of starting veterans. If we can more pass rush from the DE’s this year our CB play will be a lot better. 2018-19 though and the Eagles will have 3 really young CB’s.
Mack reminds me of former cinncy WR chris henry. a tall long situational deep threat/ 3rd WR.
he really can separate from DBs long should give carson an easy target at times.
Much better mental makeup, thicker and stronger, too. Decent comparison receiving wise, but he can be more valuable, imo.
Kinda reminds me a bit of Alvin Harper.
Chris T Jones
Booooo!
Hopefully he doesn’t ride in the back of pickup trucks with an enraged woman behind the wheel…….
yeah.. that went without saying lol
pumphrey reminds me of dion lewis. game not really built on speed but deception from cuts, jukes and acceleration.
dion was a lil slower n heavier than pumph though.
New reported UDFA signing – Randall Goforth, S, UCLA
And lo he said, “Go forth in safety young man.”
And so it was.
You know how sometimes you find yourself laughing at something that is fairly ludicrous…?
I live there.
If we ever have a roast of Tommy, you’ve got to be the mc.
The more I look at this draft, the less I like it.
It was decent. Barnett alone could make it a solid draft.
I feel just the opposite–the more I look at it the better I like it. If Jones gets his health back it could be a great draft.
If Barnett and Jones turn out to be difference makers the draft’s a success.
Wrong…think!! 😉
A draft pick is considered a successful choice if he develops into a solid starter / contributor in 2 or 3 years time (Source: Joe Banner)
Let’s say that both Barnett and Jones turn out to be pro bowlers and solidify the Eagles pass defense for the next ten years. You won’t be happy?
Care to elaborate?
We needed two CBs who could play day 1, we only drafted 1, and the one we drafted is a late third – hardly a guarantee.
Could make the argument that Dallas got the better CBs than us. Could make the argument Wash had the better draft than us and they picked behind us. They get Perine in the third ahead of us. Dallas get Lewis in third ahead of us.
Weren’t aggressive going after targets. That could work out, time will tell. Tank got picked two ahead of us. Lattimore three ahead of us. Cook two ahead of us. Kazee, King, Hunt, etc. picked ahead of us before our trade down.
Just looking at the list of who we took, it looks like we did fine position wise, but I am painfully reminded of past draft failures, so perhaps my lack of confidence in this class is a mix of past failures and seeing higher rated players at positions we needed get selected before us.
Not overly excited by any of the prospects. If Jones is healthy for a decade then I’ll change my tune. Barnett should be fine. The rest I don’t have a whole hell of a lot of faith in developing. Our track record for mid to late round picks is deplorable. Hopefully this class changes that.
I appreciate your points. I don’t know enough about college football to have many informed opinions. As such, I’m hopeful things will work out. In my less optimistic mood, I heartily agree with you.
I’m not thrilled with the Barnett pick at #14 considering DE was not a priority position. I don’t like that our #2 guy probably won’t see the field this year. Our #3 pick is a question mark at a position we needed an exclamation point. And the running back situation is still a huge weakness.
I hope my doubts are not warranted and a couple years from now Barnett will be erasing the memory of Reggie White, Jones and Douglas will be the second coming of Sheldon and Troy, and Pumphrey will be Sproles v.2. Time will tell.
I think we are better with mid to late round draft choices than early ones. Hicks was a 3rd rounder, Trent Cole and Celek were 5th rounders, Kelce a 6th rounder and Jaylen Mills and Beau Allen are 7th rounders. Agalhor, Marcus Smith, Danny Watkins, Jaiquan Jarrett, Eric Rowe, were all first or second rounders.
Trent Cole is about retired. Celek’s last year is this coming season. Agreed they were good picks, but nearly a decade has goje since they were drafted. If anything, we’re due from such a prolonged late round slump. Think Jimmy Krapski wrote an article on it a few months back.
Agreed. Underwhelming.
Nate Gerry reminds me of Kurt Coleman
I would love that.
Yes, I’m serious.
Serious question for the scouts or anyone with knowledge on the subject: what specific traits do they look at for bigger safeties successfully converting to LB? Obviously Gerry has to add 8-10 pounds. Is it hand usage, read and react close to the line ability? Seems like you could take any big safety and say bulk up and make LB. Must be certain distinctions. Thoughts?
I think it comes down to coverage ability.
Huh? All safeties can cover, but few LBs can. It must have more to do with their build/toughness/willingness to mix it up.
He ask about what determines if S is moved to LB at the next level. IMO Gerry doesn’t look like an NFL S just like Shaq Thomas isn’t an NFL S. If he had the desired range I think he would stay at S(Landon Collins).
IF a bigger/physical college S lacks the ability to drop into coverage they often end up as WIL, nickel and Dime LBs.
I think he’s asking about what makes a player succeed as a LB, not what makes them fail as a S.
I see that a lack of coverage ability (your answer) means you prob can’t make it as a safety. But not all of those guys will be successful as a LB (even if they bulk up). Any thoughts on what types of traits help players convert successfully?
I think it really depends on each specific player. I know its kind of a non answer.
Just shooting from the hip but maybe they hope Gerry playing S in college translates into him playing in space and covering guys out the backfield.
ChoTime is right, IMO. It’s about being comfortable with fighting your way through the trash at the line of scrimmage when necessary. As a safety, you aren’t necessarily going to have a OL assigned to you as primary block, even when you’re playside. As a playside LB, you can expect to have an OL looking for you, and it’s up to you to deal with it. The big part is sometimes you’ll lose (and get pancaked). You can’t let that affect how you play the next time you’re playside.
I wonder if the wide 9 makes that transition harder or easier. Seems like it would make it harder, but I have no real idea.
Landon Collins doesn’t even have the desired range; he’s horrible in coverage. He just happened to benefit for a lot of pass rush induced mistakes and an overall lucky year from several Giants.
On Jones, he probably won’t be ready to play until the back half of the season. So either the season is lost and you sit him for the rest of the year, or the corners we have are good enough to keep playing, and you sit him for the rest of the year. So I’m saying you should probably sit him for the year.
I would rather not have him be completely off if it can be avoided. Players taking that long a break can take longer to get it back. If he’s ready six games into the season, probably bite the bullet and let him play. If it’s deeper into the season… hopefully we can delay his being on the 53-man until the last five games of the season. That would avoid the year accruing, but still get him some practice time and maybe some game snaps which could hugely help in getting him ready for 2018.
We can’t just pick the last five games though, can we? Isn’t the specific windows for coming off of PUP or IR set by the rules?
It changed a bit in 2013 to give teams more flexibility.
http://www.sportsmedia101.com/newyorkgiants/2013/07/27/nfl-makes-minor-change-to-physically-unable-to-perform-pup-list-rules/
Basically, if on the regular-season PUP list, the player is out the first six games. After that, at any time during the next five weeks, the player can begin practicing. Once the player begins practicing, the team has 21 days to activate him to the 53-man roster, or leave him on the PUP list for the rest of the season.
So, that means that a player can come back as early as week 7, or as late as week 15 (which would be the 14th game). Obviously some depends on the player themselves — they could file a grievance if they felt they were being unfairly kept out. But it sure seems like the Eagles could wait 9 weeks to allow him to start practicing (which he is going to need scheme-wise at the very least), practice him during the game 10, bye week, and game 11 weeks, then activate him. If he needs longer to heal, then fine. The touchy part if he is ready say a week or to earlier; the Eagles will want to wait. But they will have a built-in excuse of wanting to “make sure” that the injury has healed.
Great info, great explanation. Thanks.
I think the Eagles are going to be good enough to battle for a playoff spot, probably a wildcard. If this is the case mid-way through the season, by which time our cornerbacks will have proven they are not good enough, Doug is going to have to make a big decision.
Report: 49ers & Eagles Discussed Trade For LB Mychal Kendricks, Deal Now Unlikely https://t.co/RiWwFYcJth https://t.co/AKRT5K8ufQ
They were asking for at least a 5th and no takers? Yeah, we aren’t getting anything for him. The post June 1 cut looks much more palatable, though.
At this point I’d rather keep him than cut him given our lack of depth.
That and unless he’s traded his salary is guaranteed.
Is this incorrect from the article?
“However, the Eagles could improve those figures to $5 million in cap savings and just $1.6 million in dead money by designating him as a post-June 1 release.”
Not quite right.
We still have the same amount of dead money, just over 2 years instead of 1
Well, that sucks.
Over the cap’s machine isn’t working right currently because it doesn’t calculate his guaranteed salary this year if cut (or fast forward the prorated signing bonus).
Best I can tell you save 2 million in a cut but have 4.5ish in dead money next year if you June 1 him. If you trade him it’s pretty similar just w/o the dead money in 2018
4.35 mill of his salary is guaranteed for 2017. Trading him saves 4.85 million, but when it happens affects how much will be be on this year’s cap. If it’s early enough they also save 150k workout bonus. Cutting him would only save the 650k, and have a net negative effect for this year.
I’m not as adamant about cleaning house as some people either. When you can’t get offers of a 5th rounder for a guy the point of getting value before he walks in free agency is sort of null and void, in my opinion.
Think we will get to see Elijah Qualls play fullback at all?
Nah, Pumphrey will have that on lock-down by week 2.
I like our draft more than others do it seems. There are 2 question mark picks in Pumphrey and Gerry, but that’s in the 4th and 5th rounds, not 1st or 2nd. I don’t mind taking experimental type guys that late. Beats Andy Reid taking Bryan Smith or nonsense like that in the 3rd.
I love that both Jones and Barnett are so young.
The only pick I had an issue with was Mack. I dont see Pumphrey as an experiment. I think he’s another 3rd down back which we seem to have a lot of at the moment.
Just curious, what is your issue with Mack?
He just wasnt my choice to be the first WR we drafted. And I was hoping they would get Marlon Mack at that spot.
Although I can see why they like Hollins. A lot of potential there
Fair enough. Your issue with it is value which is fair. I guess for me, from a player standpoint Mack seems like a quality player that fits a need and his strengths match the offensive needs, so I am OK with the player himself. The only player that I have significant concern about is Pumphrey since regardless of good or bad value from a draft position standpoint, his size/athleticism combination leave a lot to be desired.
The yearly wasted third round experimental third round pick under Reid was infuriating.
We hit on Westbrook and that seemed to be his sole focus in the 3rd round after that- take a “chance” and see what happens.
If there’s one thing Andy liked to do it was gamble. If that deep pass doesn’t work on 1st down, don’t worry, we can double down and throw it again on 2nd or 3rd down (they’ll never see it coming).
Throw it deep from the shotgun on 1st and second down, then play action on third.
Reid had a lot of misses, but was able to get foundational players at every stage of the draft. DJax in the mid-2nd before Bryan Smith. The next year they picked Shady in the 2nd round. Previous year: Celek 5th, 2005 Trent Cole 5th, Shawn Andrews, Sheldon Brown 2nd, Brian Westbrook 3rd, Donovan McNabb in his first pick. When someone like Bryan Smith busted, Reid could find a solid player for that spot in another draft or through pro player acquisition. As with KC he was able to come close to the Lombardi Trophy but not win it. McLane is correct in noting the lack of impact players now. You need to get some Pro Bowlers in the draft and fill the rest of the roster somehow.
How bout Curtis Marsh and Daniel Teo’Nesheim?? Not to mention Jaiquan Jarret in the 2nd. Pumphrey scares me, but he is a producer. Both receivers have speed and could be sleepers. I thought it was just an average draft initially, but the more I look at it, it’s growing on me. I’m amazed that we moved up 7 spots for Pumphrey and wouldn’t move 2 spots for Perine who is over 230 pounds and can catch the ball. Or what was wrong with Jeremy McNichols who was a workhorse for Boise?
I really like Rasul and Shelton in addition to our first 2 picks.
https://youtu.be/SfRlsGddmgo
1:02 thats how you rub it in haha
The White Snake cool nickname! Hes an Eagle now fellas no Trouser Snake nicknames lol
3:08 what a crack back ouch!
I can see what you mean about jerk T-Law lol Looks like a dude other teams are gonna hate coz hes gonna rub it in your face
Did he learn how to run through a tackle from Zach Ertz?
Haha i think thats the QB taking him down too.
I can totally see this dude as nasty dime LB. Just give him a chance to go after somebody.
better hands than the WR corps from last year.
I am one of those who wanted Allen over Barnett, and if the Jones pick shows no fear of injuries, it seems to be a case of believing the PR that Jernigan would have a comeback year, sign at a reasonable amount, and then be consistent afterwards when he’s never been consistent, what with Beau Allen banged up. Barnett could be good but seems to lack the athletic ability to be a star – he is an effort/ character player, the type that often takes longer to develop. Jones seems like the best pick to be a solid starter, with the highest ceiling. Rasul Douglas played well enough as a senior to be a long shot but is a long shot, as NFL corners generally play high school and he has a long list of mechanical problems he will learn against the best. Hollins seems low ceiling as a WR. Pumphrey will either be a case of Joe Douglas outsmarting everyone or a case of Joe Douglas thinking he’s outsmarting everyone (and not doing so).
I just read a DC column complaining that Bruce Allen doesn’t try to sell his strategy and picks to the press. I would like that here. For the Phillies every year Ed Wade would convince everyone he improved the team and fleeced someone, and after his first year here Pat Gillick told the press he failed. One of them won the title.
Oh come on. The whole idea of “selling to the press” is a bit much. What are they supposed to to? Philadelphia is one of the largest sports media markets in the country, and per capita far outstrips any of the other NFL markets, in terms of press pool coverage. You have 30 rabid reporters from national, local, and internet press, and Joe Douglas is supposed to stoically shake his head and say, “Not today, guys. I’m taking a cue from expert GM extraordinaire Bruce Allen. You’ll get no information about my draft board or thought process.” That’s silly. The market here is RABID and giving more information and access helps keep the fanbase energized. Maybe the Eagles should take more cues from the Redskins, like having a shitty website, start charging for access to training camp, or any other number of shitty things.
I think you need to point all of that deep organizational psychoanalysis at yourself. What’s the need to shit over everything? I don’t think you can say this was a perfect or even great draft, but it wasn’t a terrible one (a la Chicago Bears). I think legitimate criticisms can be offered without resorting to a complete deconstruction of every possible detail. I mean, the stuff about “NFL corners generally play high school” is REALLY stretching it. Along with your assumption that Timmy Jernigan is far more inconsistent than Jonathan Allen, a kid with a huge injury red flag who has never played a down in the NFL. News flash: Jernigan has shown more in the NFL than Allen has to date.
I think the people who feel the need to shit all over EVERY SINGLE MOVE EVERY SINGLE GODDAMNED TIME need to really ask themselves why they need to always do that.
1. Agreed that they did better than the Bears. If that’s your standard, great;
2. Jernigan v. Allen point unrelated to what any working scout thinks. Allen a 1st round pick, Jernigan and your third moves you up in the third, an inconsistent player on a ‘rebuilding’ team on a walk year, perhaps an ok pickup but not a reason not to pick DT;
3. NFL corners indeed play in high school, as do WRs, a problem that would be solved if Rasul Douglas picked up the position faster than he has.
If you want to concoct these rationalizations using logic like “Jernigan has shown more in the NFL than Allen has to date” you will have it appears plenty more time to do it.
Everyone is not given the same opportunities. Rasul Douglas was the kind of guy who at times was struggling to afford food. When you are literally starving during high school and college, excelling at football is not what you are focussed on. Lets get this young man in here on a professional program and diet and see how he does, when all he has to do is compete and improve his skills. I’ll put my money on the guy who overcame all that shit and made it this far.
I’m sure he’s a great guy, and part of the marketing plan is inserting ‘character’ narratives. You can like the players rather than being fussy about how the team performs.
Its not a narrative though, its a real issue. You dont perform well if you are eating four coin offer meals in a day. You dont stay after practice if you are worried about where you will get next months rent from. If you want to knock the guys potential because he didnt play in high school you should consider what his life was like at that point in time. Everyone does not have the same opportunities in life – even though there is a massive (right wing) movement in America who has propagandized that point and marketed it as an american ideal for three decades with the explicit purpose of making it seem fair to a losing middle class that some people sit on all the dough and the rest gets nothing.
The people who gave him the 4th and 5th round grade were recommending giving him a chance. You can draft a guy on day three and give him a chance. Whether it was practical for him to go out for football in high school, you pick people in the 3rd round that will perform well as starters and take the long shots later. I agree with your last point and don’t intend to get into politics here.
Yea me neither, sorry. I slipped up, ha.
So Bengals just drafted Mixon and already gave an extension to Giovanni Bernard. If we’re looking to trade for a player on the last year of his rookie contract, anyone else mighty interested in Jeremy Hill right now?
Funny thing is, every time I see something about Hill, people who watch the Bengals, mainly their own fans and division rival, says that Hill absolutely blows. Like, is really, really awful.
Never really felt that way about him. I can see that his avg. the past 2 years aren’t great, nor horrible to be fair, and he’s a pretty big back, probably used in short yard situations.
Id take a flier on him, maybe the Bengals would take Kendricks, since they have LB issues. Cant see them wanting Kelce.
As much as I passionately hate Hill because he’s stolen money from me; I’d be ok with him for Kendricks if we just want to run Hill this year for as many carries we can get out of him and then kick him to the curb.
His fumbling is vile however. Like the crowd will boo you until you refuse to show up to work vile.
Hill is a sucky sucky human being. And he owes me money for a few major f-up induced benchings that messed up my fantasy team on more than one occasion.
I know its not perfect comparision, but Warrick Dunn was 5-9 and around 170 at the combine in 1996.
more like 5-9 190…
http://www.sportsxchange.com/ds97/Analysis/TBDraft.htm
This article from his draft year put him at 5-8 and 176 pounds.
No that’s what I thought too but he officially weighed in at 176 at the combine. He played at 190 though once he got to the NFL.
The 190 might have been after a few years.
Brian Dawkins was 198 when drafted but after a few years was 220.
Yea dawkins’ upper body literally doubled in size after his first few years in the league
So you’re saying he’s gonna be like a quicker, more elusive Warrick Dunn?
I’m just curious what Pump’s top end weight can be before he loses speed / quickness.
Good recap. I’m still having ceiling issues with Barnett as I’m having trouble answering if after 3 years he’ll be
-the best pass rusher on this team
– the best pass rusher in this division
– one of the 2 or 3 best pass rushers in the conference
– a top 5 pass rusher in the NFL
I was hoping to get a guy of that stature (at any position we chose to draft) with such a premium pick. But I can’t see much of a chance that Barnett sucks unless we bring back Sean McDermott to make him drop in coverage and/or move around so much that he can’t refine any pass rushing moves.
I generally like the rest of who we drafted, with one exception, because I can see how all of these guys can contribute to making this team better over time.
My exception that I really, really, really hate the Gerry pick. I don’t like on his highlight tape RBs seem to be gaining additional yards after the point of contact with Gerry on far too many plays. His writeups also indicate a guy who had a lot of coverage issues. I have visions of screaming at him for poor coverage like I already do with Kendricks.
I’m also not looking forward to seeing a ton of cheap knockoff Foreman Mills jersey T-shirts with “Gerry” or “White Snake” all the F over people from Ridley, Bridgeport, Mayfair, and/or Vorhees.
“-the best pass rusher on this team
– the best pass rusher in this division
– one of the 2 or 3 best pass rushers in the conference
– a top 5 pass rusher in the NFL
I was hoping to get a guy of that stature (at any position we chose to draft) with such a premium pick. ”
– Unless we get the chance to pick a Myles Garrett talent, he will be
– Again, depends on who the other teams can draft. Right now consider age, great chance he will be the best in 3 years.
– Now you begin to ask too much of pick 14 in any draft. I doubt he will be better than Vic Beasley or Danielle Hunter as pure pass rusher.
– There is some guys named Von Miller, Mack, Garrett that makes it super hard for any guy to be top 5.
Overall I think you expect way too much for pick 14. Expecting anything more than a very very good player is stupid.
look at any first round. Great and very very good players are the exception. Expecting anything more than a starter is rigging your opinion for disapproval.
I love the Gerry pick. Feels like a Ravens sort of pick. The ravens, for years, have had a defensenot just with good players, but with a certain mentality, a mindset, of aggression, relentlessness and nasty toughness. One thing that all the draftees this year seem to have is that sort of mental toughness and competetive spirit. YOu cant measure that at the combine, but it means a whole lot. And Gerry has it. #culture.
Agree wholeheartedly. But Media Mike knows a lot more about finding LBs than the Ozzie Newsome school folks.
“Weak in coverage” – well Media Mike, true or false, safety coverage isn’t the same as LB coverage?
Well, he is a total protection, obviously, so skepticism is fair enough. But as a lb he is not unathletic, and I just like his mentality and the idea of a defense full of guys who are mean jerks. We’ll see how far that takes him, I guess, but there is not nothing there.
Sure thing. I just hate the hate. Ha
I like violent defenders as well, but I’m just not able to project the guy to the extent the team is choosing to. Those clips don’t show me any level of the closing speed and stop a RB dead in his tracks level of tackling I want to see from a S or LB.
Any chance you’d like to register your disagreement with a topic point with a topic counter argument, as Ankerstjernen just did, or are you insistent on making another cock faced personal attack type comment? I’m really happy to discuss why I like or don’t like certain players / things back and forth with anybody on here, but you seem to delight in making a complete smug and condescending fuck out of yourself. I get that you’re into being relativistic with picks whereas I’m more judgmental, but that doesn’t mean you need to continue to make ad hominem attacks in my directly over a philosophical difference. My choice to forcefully / aggressively explain my point of view on a topic doesn’t necessitate a jerked off personal attack from you. Seriously, go fuck yourself if you’d like to keep making “But Media Mike knows……..” type comments.
I apologize. I honestly did not intend to be as hurtful as my comment apparently felt to you.
Hope you’re having a good day despite this and I will quit it with the snark toward you. Seriously.
Go birds.
Thank you. Sincerely. I try my best to keep my topical disagreements with folks on here topical.
I can see the mindset, but I don’t see it married to any appreciable level of talent.
Isnt that sort of what you expect at that point in the draft though? Mediocre athleticism in a well-wired prospect? Hm. I guess we’ll see. I mean, if he turns out to be off the team in three months, I wont be particularly surprised either.
All-Pro is a bit of a stretch at 14, but there have been some.
You’re right; there have been some. One of the things this team really lacks is enough top level talent, so I’m desperate to see them do so when picking higher than they’re likely to for a good number of years.
I would have preferred them to move up if they wanted to add top talent. He looks more like a future solid starter than a game changer.
I had myself 100% convinced that Corey Davis was going to fall to us at 14, so’d have the stud player and the remaining draft capital. 9 picks ahead of us isn’t exactly “stealing our guy” like what New Orleans did with Cooks, but good lord did the Titans taking Davis at 5 really ruin my night.
I felt the same way. Barnett was my second choice though. But it doesnt feel anywhere close at this moment. I had settled on Davis too.
Yeah, I saw a mock the night before the draft that had him at 27 and I thought “OMG it’s happening!!!”
I was sold on that guy, too.
I saw the comments about Gerry’s poor coverage abilities too, but I am hoping that maybe coverage abilities that were considered poor for a safety may be considered decent for a linebacker.
Given the increase in speed across the board in all positions from the NFL to college he might be facing RBs/TEs in the NFL that run much better and faster routes than Purdue’s, Indiana’s, and Northwestern’s “skill” players ever did.
For those who were interested in/wanted John Ross – and I was OK with that idea from time to time through the process – now that the draft is over, I really am glad we got Gibson in the 5th instead of Ross in the 1rst.
Granted, I’m not saying they are the same player, or that Gibson is as fast. Duh.
But, to me Gibson gives you the same function without the injury risk, and he has potential to be functionally just as good as a RAC guy from short/intermediate passes as Ross – if not better.
Yep. If Gibson had gone back and taken the next step he would have been compared to Ross, Corey Coleman or Taywan Taylor (depending on how much of a jump he took). He’s the right kind of day 3 pick, skills to contribute now and if he takes the next step, big ceiling.
Sounds like you are describing Pumphrey to a “T”
🙂
I think that would be to a “t”
(small t)
Big fighT, liTTle dog
What’s the big upside? 5 manufactured touches a game?
Probably better than trying to force the ball to DGB all game long and watching him come up short against the little guys.
I’m neutral on the pick- they saw something they liked, and went for it. Were there other options on the board? Yes, absolutely. But this pick isn’t about this year, it’s about developing a player and plugging them into a situation.
Maybe he plays this year- maybe he doesn’t. I tend to think (minus an injury or major setback) that they will bring him along slowly and let him add muscle to his frame. Sproles, Smallwood, Marshall (if things don’t work out at WR for him) and anyone else that they bring in can be higher on the depth chart.
The Sproles comparison is too easy- but regardless of what we think, that little dude keeps proving people wrong. Give him a chance.
And perhaps we can get him up to 8 touches a game; he improved his bench, why not his touch per game average?
PS. For a little dude to put up 8 reps at 225 while weighing 169, that ain’t so bad. He’s going to need more mass, but an NFL strength staff should help to get that done.
I love Gibson. I think he has Mike Wallace type potential. The guy has underrated body control and hands as well. Not only can he get deep, but he can adjust to the ball in the air. I can see him as a starter in a couple of years
It will be interesting to see if Latitmore ends up having chronic hammys that really limit his career. And ditto for Johnathan Allen with his injury – how long will he be able to play significant time, and how will he handle being bowled over by Pumphrey the first time?
Will John Ross be a on and off the field guy most of his career?
Will those who say Barnett actually has a decent shot to be better than Garret end up being right?
Will Dalvin Cook be able to stay out of trouble, healthy, and avoid chronic fumbleitis?
These things will heavily impact the Barnett pick in the future, in addition of course to his own development, and performance.
You’re right, this is why it takes a couple years to evaluate a draft.
It’s always hard to separate method from result (which most people project in their evaluations) in the early stages. IE, maybe Trubisky ends up being a great QB, but it’s fair game at this stage to say the Bears got hosed and don’t seem to know what they’re doing.
So maybe a guy like Allen at least gets through his first contract with good health, but that doesn’t mean there wasn’t great risk at the time of the pick. I think people think of draft picks as pre-determined scratch off lottery tickets that you slowly reveal if it ends up being a winner or not over time. But it’s more like dropping a plinko chip and watching crazy turns throughout a career, and if you’re drafting Allen, you’re just hoping it doesn’t land on early retirement.
The Gerry and Pumphrey picks still don’t make sense. Hollins will be 24 in September.
If you describe a Jim Schwartz defender, you pretty much describe Gerry.
He will be a WILL LB /Dime safety for us, so size is not as important (if they can get him to 225, he wont be much smaller than Lavonte David.
Am I reading too much into things to say this draft has all the signs of not being BPA at all? Best-fit players at positions of need, drafted a round earlier than they usually would be.
BPA is concept you can not apply in a vacuum.
When people say BPA, they often mean “Best player who fit the scheme and a position of need”
Agreed.
We (fans) often base our boards off of the media- we don’t know how they had these guys rated and slotted to go. Add in the complexity of draft runs and other players getting selected before a team thinks that they will- sometimes you just have to go for who you want and live with the ire of the fandom and media.
Maybe we wait to get Jones, and then lose him. We’ve heard it leaked that other teams would have selected the guys that we did; maybe that’s true, maybe it’s not. But they targeted certain players, got some of them, missed others- and this is what we have. This team isn’t a finished product, and they are certainly building for the future while trying to stay competitive in the present.
If BPA was real, there wouldnt be much reason to trade back which essentially means you are punting on taking the BPA
Think outside of Pumphrey and Gerry every player the Eagles drafted was taken in where pre draft projections had them or later.
Generally when you go to pick you have multiple players with the same grade on the board, and then you take them depending on roster needs and positional value.
How does Gerry coverage ability stack up against a 1st round hybrid defender like Jabrill Peppers who doesn’t have the greatest reputation when it comes to coverage ability?
great read. I’m never a fan of comparing draft pics to players already in the nfl. I believe in letting them find their own way instead of giving false expectations.
Gotta laugh about all those post draft grades. It’s almost as useless (though entertaining at times) as mock drafts.
The Draft remains and will always be a crapshoot and only 50% of the draftees will have a life in the NFL.
If you could already tell whom of the Eagles draft picks will be a solid contributor in a couple of years time I will wholeheartedly congratulate for being Nostradamus!!
Grade away!
Just one plus, huh? Negadelphian.
a case in point is the Giants drafting a TE in the 1st round. One article called it a steal and said the Giants have loaded up a hybrid weapon for Eli. A different article said it was a bad pick because the guy can’t block and there won’t be enough passes for all the big name receivers the Giants have now. They weakened the O line for little return.
Gameplan: Eli count to 1 and throw the ball up really high.
I think they call that a Re-Plax-ing Sunday.
It doesn’t seem like Joe Mathis, DE from Washington signed with anyone which really surprises me. Was really hoping the Eagles would sign him or Carroll Phillips as another developmental pass rusher.
The lack of OT picks in the draft and in UDFA tells me the Eagles are really high on Vaitai and Dillon.
I thought he signed with Dallas
He signed with the Texans
https://twitter.com/joe_sahil_IV/status/858496402862637056
OT: Not sure who has kids here but this happened and I feel everyone should know:
https://youtu.be/PFtHeo7oMSU
Ima just leave this here and let the people decide…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXca4WcCzlo
I wonder if we will sign Jason McCourty to a Leodis McKelvin type contract?
Going to have to bring in some more help for our secondary, especially if we get an injury. That’s the one area of our team that is in serious trouble if the injury bug hits us.
Great writeup Tommy. Would love to hear your feedback on the WR corps. We played 5 last season. We signed 2 (Jeffrey, T. Smith) in the off season and drafted 2 (Hollins and Gibson). If you add in Jordan Matthews that leaves us 5.
don’t forget that it’s almost financially impossible to cut Agholar so there’s a fairly large chance that he’s still here as well this year
“almost financially impossible” – Howie Roseman chuckles at that phrase. Psh….ha…please
As much of a wizard as Howie is he can’t do anything about the fact that it would cost us millions more to cut Agholar than it would to keep him.
We only kept 5 last year because none of them did anything on Special teams. They will keep 6 this year because of Hollins and Gibson on teams. Apologies to those that assume Agholor will be cut – he should be, but he doesn’t have to be.
and they announced moving rb to slot wr…
Defensive line battles are the most anti-climactic battles because of rotations. They’re basically just battling for a bigger share of the snaps. I don’t worry about it because everyone will be getting on the field to show what they got during the season, they will all contribute. I just want them to be creative at getting them on the field. I would really like to see Graham-Cox-Curry-Barnett on 3rd and long.
Ironically, the exact opposite of offensive line battles.
Yeah, I always feel a slight bit of anxiety when we have 2 solid players that are very close to each other competing because one of their talents will be wasted unless the other guy gets injured. But D-line and running backs, by all means, you can’t get enough quality players. Everyone will get to contribute, and they will keep each other relatively healthy if we have a good rotation.
Why do people want to take Jernigan off the field lol? Especially for Curry?
That’s fair. I really liked what Curry did against guards. He has an even better 3 cone than Barnett who is vaunted for his 3-cone. Curry is quick off the ball and his agility is trouble for a lot of guards. The road grader guard is dying out because Defensive ends are taking Offensive tackles out much wider, leaving interior linemen with a lot of space to man, and a lot of space for interior pass rushers to work with. Curry was quite effective with a shorter path to the QB, and the troubles he gave guards, just because of his location in the interior, was much more disruptive for QB’s. That’s the part that a lot of people overlook with Curry. His film looks the same, guy gets off the ball fast as ever, he’s a handful, he just doesn’t get home, and his disruptiveness isn’t as big a factor when he’s not in the QB’s face. He’s lined up too far out. This is why I was initially down on Barnett in our system, on paper they are very similar. On tape Barnett bends around the edge infinitely better. So I came around.
Just saw the McManus article about how the Vikings jumped the Eagles to draft Cook. If that’s true, I might have to become a Vikings fan because they were the magic of this year’s Eagles draft… giving us a 1st round pick, boosting it to 14, and then making sure we did not draft Cook. WOW! Go VIKES!!!
Breaking News:
GE has hurt his left ankle in a non-contact drill. X rays came back negative.
Looks like a high ankle sprain.
GE is questionable for his Stag do on Saturday.
Easy on the pain meds brosuf!
I am liking Pumphrey’s running style, low and fluid, Sproles always strikes me as more of jump cut style (wasted vertical movement) vs. the low fluid move, i.e. Arian Foster I thought always looked effortless in makes moves left to right and putting 1 foot down and going.
Yeah, if you watch his highlights, it’s as if someone digitally isolated his legs, and are playing the video of his legs at 3x fast forward speed, while the rest of the video – every other player, the football, and even Pump’s upper body are at normal speed!
expected faster than 4.48 just watching him
He packed weight on for the combine. Was 169 at the senior bowl
i think 170ish might be his ultimate playing weight down the road anyway…… ala Taylor Gabriel-ish build?
Maybe build, but he’s not as fast as Gabriel.
i am becoming a bit obsessed with Pumphrey and his style, wondering just how was he able to produce at that size. Fluid is a good way to describe a lot of his runs. Like water finding the path of least resistance. He sees where the hole will be but it is not as simple as “find hole, go through hole, and bam, you are free on the other side” – those holes are hard to come by.
He seems to not necessarily be looking for an open hole that is shaped like a cylinder with two open ends. He rather is content finding holes that are cone shaped, with the end closest to him open, and the far end closed (so not a typical “hole”). To a lot of backs this might not look like a good hole because it is closing in on three sides fast. But Pumphrey attacks such an opening without hesitation. The cone might be 6 or 8 yards long, so if he reaches the far end of the cone, the pointy end, he gains his 6 yard average at least.
So many of his runs are like this, one after another, him getting 6 yards while being swallowed up. He does not knock anyone over for the 6 yards, and likely does not make a cut to make someone miss for the 6 yards, but he does find the gap he could squeeze through before getting swallowed up for the 6 yards. Those 6 yards are as far as 6 yards gained by cutting on a dime or knocking someone over.
But there is just such a good chance these cone like holes will close up a lot faster in the pros, and that just an hand from a 330 pound DT will be able to reach out and knock him off balance or over as he crosses the line of scrimmage.
I think he averaged about 6 YPC, so good call. But Warrick Dunn averaged more like 7 YPC. 😉
“i am becoming a bit obsessed with Pumphrey and his style, wondering just how was he able to produce at that size.”
It is fascinating.
Gerry: 13 INTs in three seasons as a starter at SS is quite impressive. I realize that the position affords many opportunities for tipped balls, but I watched his highlights and maybe two INTs were off of tipped balls. He’s a good tackler, and he very well could be a Willie T in coverage. With Hicks, frankly, we’ll have two Willie Ts.
I like the pick but Gerry will always be on the light side as a LB, and will struggle with dealing with shifty backs because he really is quite stiff, even if he has good enough straight line speed. He has a defined ceiling, but that is not a problem with a late round pick, especially if they can play special teams and be solid cheap depth and a position of need.
I am hoping for a Deone Buchannon (ARI) type of transition, i remember we were linked to him quite a bit a few years ago and he has found a nice role for the Cardinals
Sounds like we added some:
much needed speed and quickness to our offense.
A player at every position group in our front 7. Cheap backüp DT that can pair with one of last years UDFA DTs giving us Inexpensive backups that will hopefully allow us to pay Jernigan to remain in philly past this season
Two top 100 corners and the top pass rusher( in terms of production)building up our pass defense which has been holding us back for too long
Continuing to replenish the ST talent for Fipp to continue producing quality special teams units that have really helped us win a lot games while rarely being the reason we lose games.
No one knows which One of these kids will bust, and which will exceed expectations, but they did accomplish almòst everything we needed to accomplish in this draft in terms of building up the positions that reallly needed it. The only positional complaint is we didn’t get a kid who has a chance of becoming a starting RB unless they actually struck gold with The Undrafted RB
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We succeeded in creating some serous competition to make this team at the WR position which was much needed. The talent/Depth at WR now is night and day different compared to what we had in training camp last summer
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Created a lot of camp competition at DE which is one of most important positions in the league, but becomes even more important in schwartz defense that is so reliant on an elite DL rotation.
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We might be a little too young to be one of the better teams in 2017 in terms of the CB position, that remains to be seen, but at least we added some legit talent to our CB room, and created an interesting camp competition amongst the yoûng corners.
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Didn’t draft any OLineman, but i Think there is a lot to be excited about in terms of the OL camp competition/depth this summer.Nice combo of quality veterans and young talent, most of which comes with NFL game experience
I read Tommy very subtlety saying that we didn’t get any starters … noting comparisons to schit players. Underwreight LB, 6’1″DT with arms of s 5’8″ guy. ..
the bills fired their GM the day after the draft? WTF
Decision was likely made months ago, but they kept him on for continuity through the draft.
That’s insane to me. I get that sometimes you have to keep your scouts in place until after the draft, but a GM?
logistically just seems crazy
“It’s not you, it’s us. You’re a great guy, and you shouldn’t get discouraged and give up. You’ll make some team very happy some day. Just not us.”
apparently writing was on the wall even before the draft.
Schefter was saying how it is not uncommon to see scouting personnel being let go presently being that “now” is essentially the “end of their season”
Not a good franchise. It’s so easy to sort of take basic competence for granted, but so many of the franchises are amateurish. Because owning one of the 32 teams at the highest level of the sport is not based on merit.
Sad but true
Add McDermott into the situation. Who is behind hiring him and how much say did he get in the draft? Is he now a lame duck coach? Would hate being a Bills fan right now.
Can’t wait to start hearing the names that would even accept an interview with the Bills, signing on to be a GM that didn’t get to hire the brand new coach, DIDNT get to choose which playefs to retain, didn’t get to choose the free agents, and didn’t get to draft his players lol.
I imagine that the Next Bills GM will either have ZERO GM experience, or he will have a horrendous track record as a GM. 99% of the work has been done. You could literally be the 2017 GM of the Bills and it probably wouldn’t make much of a difference
..
The next GM has to either be happy with McDermott, or push the Owner to fire McDermott after a year. congrats, they have become more dysfunctional than the Browns. While KcDermott and the players have to wonder all year whether they have a lame duck coach
Chip Kelly qualifies for both criteria!
As any FYI; Pat Kirwan (via Vic Carrucchi I think) has stated that McDermott demanded full control over all functions (draft / roster) at the expense of Whaley being shut out as a pre-condition of his hire. And if you remember, Whaley wasn’t even aware that Pegula was going to fire Rex.
that being said you would figure the Bills would have been the ones to draft Aguayo (K) last year lol
I think this is true in all the sports.
And life.
Except they have a better legacy than us
if you mean “even more snakebitten and tortured fan-base” sure. Also if you completely omit our pre-merger history
Loved that team and will argue its in the ‘best all time’ group .. we only went twice and it causes people to claim HOF for coach .. goin 4 in a row is for sure All Time. Losing them all is cooler than winning once. .. (tough idea i know,
But certainly wining twice wud be far better)
Not in any way that actually matters. Don’t see a lot of hardware on the shelf there.
Not as bad as firing him one day before the draft.
would have been better after the 1st Rd pick…. now that would show franchise stability
Could it be that he was GM in name only and kept on the payroll for informational security? Still a mess, but it would explain the timing.
Probably not considering they fired the GM and ALL his scouts, so im not really sure who else would be making that decision If it wasn’t the GM or some head scout. 1st time coach McDermott?
But I guess When you are that dysfunctional we probably can’t put it past them
The alternative is that the owner had no plans of firing them, saw the draft outcome and instantly decided to fire everyone the next day? That might actually be worse.
Hahaha its really bad when we aren’t sure which is worse
Only extremely dysfunctional organizations fire their GM prior to the draft and then use his evaluations to make their selections. Most places wait until their work is done (post draft) before implementing a new team of scouts for the following year.
Though the timing seems strange, that’s the best way to do it.
Actually I think what they usually do is change the GM, but keep the scouts in place until after the draft, because the GM job ismt just about the draft. GMs need to be a prominent voice in the coaching search(hiring McDermott) and signing free agents/deciding which playërs to allow to walk… So waiting Til after the draft to fire your GM essentially means that the new GM has NOTHING to do with the 2017 Bills…. I wouldnt call that Normal. Or sometning that would make them Less Dysfunctional.
Sure, but someone has to pull the trigger on draft day- trades, final selections, etc. Do you promote and try someone that has never been in that position before, while they also know that they are on the way out the door?
That’s why new GM’s are typically hired after the season, NOT after the draft. That’s not normal. It’s more normal to keep the scouts in place until the GM you hired can get to replacing the scouts with his people after the draft
..
It’s not at all less dysfunctional to wait Til the draft to fire your GM, especially when you hired a new coach a few months ago. So what quality established GM wants to take a job where you no Imput in hiring the new HC months ago, so you are either stuck with him or you have to get the owner to be ok with firing him after a year so you can hire your guy. Just like its not normal that a new GM had NO Imput whatsoever on any of the personal for an incoming season… It’s much less dysfunctipnal to hire a New GM first Who then runs the coachng search, who then gets to decide which playërs he wants to retain for the start of his regime, and which playërs to łet walk in free agency. Then you want your new GM to begin his era making the free agent decisions. Then you get to the draft and the new,GM makes decisions based on the old scouting department, and after the draft he gets to work putting together his own scouting staff
..
We saw this exact thng play out with the Sixers hiring Colangelo. It’s why he publically credits the scouting staff he had in place when he took the job for the drafting of Luwawu and Korkmaz, but from after the draft Til now he has been working on building his own scouting department…
…
Not sure why the hell the owner DIDNT want to fire the GM after the season, yet prefered to do it now. But he probably won’t have a long line of established NFL GM’s linning up to sign on for this job when the new GM will almost have nothîng to do with the 2017 season. highly dysfunctional behavior And I’d love to hear what type of answer he could come up with for why he didn’t want to fire the GM at the end of the season, prefferinf to fire him after the draft.
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“Someone has to pull the trigger on the draft decision”… thats normally the new GMs job who Will also be the new GM during the upcoming season which Bills Owner now put him in position where the new GM will have almost nothing to do with the upcoming season. You can let the new GM make the draft decisiins based Off the Intel gathered by the scouts in place. And then fire the scouts after the draft so the new GM can get to work hiring his own scouts and front office personal, Thats much more normal than the what this Bills owner did
It buys the new GM at least an additional year to “build” his own scouting department and draft selections. It doesn’t bode well for McDermott, though I’m not sure if it was the GM or the owner that really wanted him there anyway…….
I hope they don’t pick up the option on Watkins, that would be the icing on the cake.
You can’t normalize this dysfunction
..
Notice how the Colts and Titans are making changes to their scouting deprtments after the draft (NORMAL), while Bills are the only team firing their GM after the draft (Not Normal)
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Can’t wait to see what underwhelming GM candidate they get to take this job and then see how many years before they fire him considering he has nothing to do with his first year on the job, im gonna laugh if they hire a new GM in two years
Yeah, but I think dysfunctional is a given here. Only the degree is in question.
Imagine the damage a disgruntled former GM who read all of the scouting report and helped set the draft board could do. Even if his vision doesn’t carry on without him, he know which guys scouts like and which guys they don’t. That info isn’t going to all change weeks before.
That’s not the argument dude. The Dysfunction is not hiring the new GM first and foremost after the season, THAT dysfunction is why you don’t see GM’s fired right before or right after the draft
I think the particular issue in Buffalo is that Whaley, as sucky as he is, was the only guy who was able to coordinate the scouting and build the board prior to the hire of McDermott. We all knew Rex was getting fired for a while.
So the timing, as you correctly pointed out as embarrassing, was necessitated by the other elements of the hiring and firing cycle.
Re: Redskins
I think it’s relatively common to fire scouts etc. right after the draft (you don’t want them going to other teams with knowledge of the draft strategy, like you say). But it’s really rare to see GMs fired then.
Of course, that didn’t stop the Redskins from firing theirs in the middle of the process.
Hiring a true GM is harder when they can’t pick their coach. We’ll see how this goes, I guess. Normally you want the GM first, and as soon as possible. But they hired a coach, who was never going to be able to run a full draft strategy. Maybe they decided to try to work together, but figured out partway through that it wasn’t going to work long-term.
a week after the Buffalo Sabres fire their GM?
both teams owned by same guy.
Hopefully they’re able to hire Ron Rivera as the GM because McDermott proved to be completely useless without Rivera’s scheme and tutelage coupled with lucking into some pro bowl / all pro level talent.
He’s got neither in Buffalo.
They probably don’t stand much of a chance until the owner gets his act together
Cleveland II………..moral of the story; beware of franchised based in the Great Lakes.
Green Bay has done OK
Aaron Rogers is a powerful perfume
But Detroit, Chicago, Buffalo, and Cleveland are all putrid organizations as of late. I’ll take the 4:1 ratio……….and it might be 5:0 if you listen to Packer fans (legitimate) complaints that their front office is wasting Rodgers’s prime.
Do you send disparaging fan letters to McDermott that mock his ability as a coach?
No, I wouldn’t want to harass him directly. But if people want to bring up his name and act like the 2010 red zone debacle isn’t the defining moment of his football career (due to it taking place here and 31 other franchises / fan bases being worthless and unimportant), I’m forced to call attention to the fact that 2010’s red zone debacle can never be erased.
Much better than firing him before the draft (cough…WFT…cough). There are always shakeups right after the draft. Usually not on that scale, but if they planned to move on from him, they’re actually better doing it after the draft than before.
You know that was supposed to get Washington’s whole plan exposed to the league so they wouldn’t be able to take premium players (I wanted) before we could.
Then they still got Moreau in the 3rd, Perrine in the 4th, and Sprinkle in the 5th. Those were my guys!
Sprinkle seems like a smart guy. Just heard (BGN podcast) that he was suspended from his bowl game for stealing from the shop that the bowl had given him gift cards for. That takes a very special kind of smart.
I had completely missed this from LaCanfora:
https://twitter.com/JasonLaCanfora/status/859068199865905152
“Final straw for Whaley I’m told was 1st round pick. Owner stumped hard for Mahomes. Loved him. Bills trade down w/KC; Chiefs take QB there.”
Um… so the owner had not made the decision to fire him, but then the GM not picking the player the owner wanted was the last straw? If so… the Bills dysfunction is just beginning. Yikes.
Very curious to see how RB and CB shape up for the season. Seems a little scary.
it’s ok, it’s not a finished product yet…
Let’s hope not. It’s also possible the brass can’t come up with anything worthwhile and they throw in the towel, figuring the future is a multi-year project anyway.
I think they’ll be quite active in looking to add player who makes sense because they’ve got potential and/or affordability after they’re cut elsewhere.
That’s likely the plan and it could score us a corner or rb that is “good enough for now.”
And I’m fine with that as long as they can add long term starters via the draft.
Hopefully, Jones is one of those guys and it would be incredible if Douglas was another. Maybe for this year score a vet rb who still has some fuel in the tank, and get our workhorse in next years draft.
If any of these dudes want to play for vet minimum, I’d be willing to have them in here.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/running-back/available/
Yup, those are the guys who can carry the ball and keep Defenses from keying on Carson throwing.
It is, but you can’t fix the whole team in one off season. We all knew they weren’t going to be able to address every position group to our full satisfaction.
Way more worried about CB than RB.
LOL! Trubisky went to the Bulls/Celtics game and was brutally Boooed by the hometown Chicago fans. Yet we will never stop hearing about how a couple Eagles fans booed Donovan at the draft
“Yet we will never stop hearing about how a couple Eagles fans booed Donovan at the draft”
Mostly because Eagles fans will bring it up whenever they whine about other teams.
And every Christmas someone brings up Santa and snowballs…
Writers who actually use that example as part of their thesis are laughable .. same with any writer who quotes that dope who uttered dream team
If McNabb was a bust, the GEAGLEz of the world would be trumpeting how “smart Eagles fans were” by booing 5.
1guy with painted face booed DMac … that guy and his redneck bud shud actually stand up and say he was wrong. .. wonder if hit’s identity is known ..
Is that “Sean from Springfield” who always calls the radio and is always at games in the makeup?
Glad to refer to him as Sean from Springprofiled
I’m fired up, but I draw the line at cosplay.
Or Ronnie from Ronkonkoma .. probable Gints or Boys fan trolling as an eagle to provide some low hanging fruit for dumbass writers who need to wreck us
The way I read that is they boo’d him on the jumbotron, but then when they realized he was actually there, a lot of people started cheering.
Jamaal Charles visiting Broncos tomorrow
Time keeps rollin and Tommy keeps putting up quality articles.
#warriormentality
#FueledByFunions
#PBRisMyCo-Pilot
Dont forget to add Jernigan when you talk about this years draft results. Albeit for one year…
That’s why I have to remain doubtful of the “value” in adding Jernigan. If he was just a one year rental, I don’t feel like we got value for him. If he signs here and produces strongly in that spot, I think we got great value.
same as any draft pick really. if they produce, great pick. if not then not good value
True, but at least we get 4 years of those guys developing…….hopefully.
Jefferey also signed for one year. I read somewhere, though, that his intention is to play the year then sign a mutli-year deal with the Eagles
After reading this i feel like we didn’t get any starters
It is very well possible that on opening day 2018 Barnett, Jones, Douglas, and Qualls are all starting.
You think Qualls beats out Jerningan?
No, I think Jernigan isn’t retained because he wants big money on the open market and we’re still not paying that much for DT. Like I’ll honestly be shocked if he’s back.
And Gibson is an interesting name for a starter. If we don’t retain Alshon, we could go WR early next year and mix and match with a few guys.
Jernigan is going to get paid by us if he plays well. Out with the mediocre players and in with the good ones.
http://overthecap.com/position/4-3-defensive-tackle/
Where would you slot him on AAV here? He’s going to be just as good, and probably better than, Tyrone Crawford who got 5 / $45 mil. Now if you can get him down at Linvall Joseph money 5 / $31, you’re more talking my language.
Barnett will be in the rotation — he will play a lot.
Douglas will probably be a starter almost by default, unless he really struggled with the transition.
It isn’t even close to good enough, but Brooks / Robinson / Mills to start the year as the “top” 3 CBs simply just might be what it has to be.
Sigh…
Yeah, it isn’t anywhere good enough. But it also isn’t finished yet.
I just responded to another post of yours using the phrase “good enough for now.” Great minds think alike.
Trust the process?
I don’t think Sidney Jones will have a caveat in a sponsor deal that awards him for being rookie of the year.
Year 40
A man after my own heart.
If you respect Mel Kipers acumen, he has the Eagles as the best draft out of the NFC East teams
..
Is Booger McFarlan crazy for liking Barnett more than Myles Garrett? Claims that Barnett’s tape is significantly better. I wouldn’t know either way
.
I haven’t seen many national people that are down on the Eagles draft haul
..
Day 1 starters is not how you realistically measure The success of a draft
I think everyone stopped reading after “If you respect Mel Kipers acumen”
Remember, the player who Mel Kiper and Billy Tobin battled over was Trev Alberts. Complete bust of a player.
Could never remember which Tobin it was. He couldn’t stand Kiper. Can you imagine how he’d react today with every Tom, Dick, & Harry a draft expert. Oops………..
His successor in that job, Bill Pollian, has a hard enough time getting called out on BS when he’s hosting on Sirius.
To actually state out loud that Marvin Harrison was a far better player than TO is beyond stupid.
On board with your viewpoint all the way !!
OMG,those words have never been type on this blog before!!!
Generally goes without saying regarding Mr Lawlor .. but i come for the good insights in the comments
my comment was about you being “On board with your viewpoint all the way !!” with gEAglE,
Not our illutrious leader
THAT was a 1st on EaglesBlitz.
Im a big Geagle fan also actually. . Id read his blog
Not but it is very important too including getting meaningful production from them in their rookie years.
well, if it makes you feel better, most of the time when you feel like you drafted a bunch of starters, you’re delusional. So lets call this growth?
Decent chance Barnett and Douglas start. Hollins or Gibson could end up starting as well.
I’m thinking we have new starter at RB too.
Also, Sidney Jones has a chance of being more than “just a starter”. He could be our #1 cornerback, a position that we’ve technically had on paper but really haven’t had filled by a #1 cornerback for years.
I think he will be the number 1 CB. Just not this year.
Yeah, but this is our “make the playoffs” year. He’ll be ready for the Super Bowl run in 2018-19.
Man it’s going to be sweet going into next year’s draft and not needing a #1 cornerback. Hopefully one of these other scrubs proves good enough to be a competent #2.
The only way this team is a Super Bowl contender in 2018 is if this draft was a home run.
I would bet meaningful dollars against that.
Yeah, but this draft was a home run if Barnett becomes a solid starter and Sidney Jones lives up to his potential as a top NFL cornerback. I could see that happening.
Whether Barnett starts or doesn’t, the way Schwartz rotates, it means little. If he sits while someone else is rotating, then it’s a bad sign. I think he’ll see regular shifts.
AKA; not what Marcus Smith was doing as a rookie.
Barnett might not be a flashy athlete, but he looks like a sound football player with good athletic ability and an understanding of how to play the game. I like the player, but I’m even more enamored of the investment at a vital position in a player who should be a DE so long as we run any form of 4 man front for defense.
MS2 is a tale of what could have been… so much athletic ability that just hasn’t materialized in any good action on the field.
Actually, it means more than a little. Schwartz rotaters, but the 2nd line doesn’t get near the snaps that the first line gets.
Check out the snap counts: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/phi/2016-snap-counts.htm Cox and Graham, who weren’t injured, played 75% of the snaps. Even Barwin who began to have his snaps curtailed played 70% of the snaps. Curry, who took some of Barwin’s snaps and also rotated to DT on passing downs, only played 42% of the team’s snaps.
So yeah, they rotate, but if you are not on the 1st line you are getting around 1 snap for every 3 snaps the starters get.
Good point. Love to see the more advanced numbers but Graham only 1.5 sacks in the final 8 weeks (0.5 the last 7 games).
Seemed to hit a bit of a wall & wasn’t quite the same dynamic player he was in Sept/Oct.
I remember hearing that he had lost nearly 5 pounds by the end of the season which was some of that bulk/muscle he had added last offseason.
Another narrative is that by that time, O-coordinators had realized the key to the Eagles’ D is to attack the cornerbacks with quick hitters and so sacks would be harder to come by.
How to explain the disappearance of Vinnie? He must’ve had a lingering injury that slowed him down. He had a great first step before last season. I do still believe though that Barnett may not start but will see at least as much action as Barwin did.
I am not going to say Curry played great last year, but part of the disappearance can be attributed to not being on the field. He was a 2nd team DE so he was only in there for 25% of the snaps at DE for most of the season. His snaps at DE did go a little higher than that at the end of the season thanks to Barwin wearing out, but he just wasn’t out there most of the time.
You can’t give a guy 1 out of every 4 snaps and expect him to put up the numbers of a starter, expecially when he is taking those snaps with Steven Means and Marcus Smith rather than Fletcher Cox and Brandon Graham.
Maybe Billy Davis used him more creatively in blitz packages? It seems like Schwartz is very vanilla in that department.
Comedy answer: the only way for Curry to hit expectations now would be to confirm his future Hall of Fame status by trading him to the Patriots. He’d become the greatest ever overnight.
The thing I like about Barnett is that he’s good at sacking the quarterback.
I understand that a lot of people see a negative here. Barnett gets by on skills. He’s got the hand fighting skills and the ability to turn and lean like a pro. They would rather have more of a physical freak with enormous upside. The idea is that skills can be taught but size and athleticism cannot.
I see the argument, but on the other hand, Barnett is really good at sacking the quarterback. He’s already got that. Those aren’t skills that are going to go away. His sack numbers may be “inflated” because he’s so good at finishing, but personally I am a bit tired of judging our pass rush by hurries and FO stats. We got a guy who is extremely skilled at getting to the quarterback and finishes the job when he gets there. I am very happy about it.
I’m torn. I don’t see him being a bust and a I don’t see him being more than a 6 to 8 sack guy in the NFL.
but that lean man! did you see the lean?!
Serious question, did you see anyone in this year’s draft who was more than a 6 to 8 sack guy?
That’s a great question. Garrett is so inconsistent in terms of production, he might not be either. Some of the round 2 level (even if reached for in round 1) DEs might also maxed out as those types of dudes.
I guess it was a bad year to be really in need of a DE and look at one as your best option at 14. There isn’t even a good hindsight scenario I can give you for taking a DE at 43.
I really don’t dislike Barnett in and of himself, I’m just really stuck on not seeing a path to star/super-stardom for him.
For perspective, only six (6) 4-3 defensive ends had more than 8 sacks last year and none were taken in the first round.
12.5 – Danielle Hunter, DE – 3rd round
11.5 – Cliff Avril, DE – 3rd round
11.5 – Cameron Wake, DE – undrafted
9.5 – Mario Addison, DE – undrafted
9 – Trent Murphy, DE – 2nd round
8.5 – Olivier Vernon, DE – 3rd round
It seems OLBs in a 3-4 are the ones getting the most sacks as they tend to be moved around to create mismatches. Many are also the high first round picks Von Miller, Khalil Mack, Joey Bosa.
That’s going to be really interesting going forward about keeping 1st round positional value on 4-3 DE or not.
That’s what o hate about 3-4, it’s almost impossible to get an old unless you pay out of your nose or draft in top of first round. Lots of one dimensional pass rushers in the mid rounds
The guy is only 20. He will get stronger and faster.
That to me is the question especially his ability to effectively play the run and maintain point of attack.
He did play, and shine, in the SEC. It’s not like he’s been playing poor competition.
Which he was quite good at in college. Fully expect him to be solid against the run, fits the system well.
Novel concept.
Some athletic abilities seem to be specific to football, and not really measurable by the metrics they measure at the combine. The thing you always hear scouts talk about with pass rushers is their “bend” when they rush the passer. It seems like Barnett has that in spades when you watch the tape, and his sack numbers back that up.
Smith 5th year option not being picked up.
Luck if his 4th year option gets picked up
http://boards.dallascowboys.com/topic/74681-the-beast-the-least-and-the-yeast-in-the-east/
The Eagles lost Jackson but brought in Jeffery and Torrey Smith and upgraded their receiver corps for Wentz who proved he was worth that pick last season
Huh? Jackson was long gone.
Surprised you on Cowboys site:/ lol
Yeah idk what that is about. Both him and Mac have been gone for awhile now.
Lol….I never post there, but since I live here in Dallas I like to stay up on my INTEL. 🙂 Always interested to see what they think of the rest of our division.
haha nice. Keep the undercover work up:) lol
Lol aye aye Cappin’
friends close, enemies closer
There’s plenty of bad posts from Eagles forums without adding one from a Dallas forum.
So don’t read it jackass. 🙂
http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2017/5/1/15510646/nfl-draft-analyst-mack-hollins-steal-fourth-round-pick-eagles-philadelphia-wide-receiver-carolina D3, Im not the only one who thinks Hollins was a 2nd day prospect.
I mean, okay. But that can also mean you’re just not the only one who’s wrong…
It’s meant to provide some evidence that other notable football aficionados concurred with my thoughts. If not for his broken collarbone he very well could have gone on day 2. I most certainly can be wrong and in fact am wrong everyday. I’m not trying to be pompous or boastful.
I think it’s got a LOT to do with their special teams commitment.
Jamaal Charles anyone?