So Much Better
Posted: June 16th, 2017 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 112 Comments »
The Eagles receiving corps has to be the most improved unit in the league. This group looked good on paper and played that way in the OTAs and minicamp.
Alshon Jeffery played like a #1 receiver. He caught just about everything that came his way. He made contested catches. He made spectacular catches. He even hauled in a deep ball or two. The Eagles gave Jeffery a lot of money and right now that looks like money well-spent. Carson Wentz has a top shelf weapon to go to in the passing game. That could be huge for Wentz’s development.
Torrey Smith hasn’t done anything spectacular, but he’s shown the speed the Eagles lacked last year. Beyond that, Smith is a skilled vertical receiver. He and Wentz are working on the subtleties of how to complete those deep balls. Smith is teaching Wentz what he considers open to be and where to put the ball so he can go make a play on it.
Jordan Matthews, the Eagles best receiver the last couple of years, was hurt and didn’t play. Doug Pederson said he could go if this was the regular season so it sounds like the team is just being careful. Unless his leg falls off, I’m willing to count on Matthews to play well.
Nelson Agholor has embraced the challenge of this offseason. He could have pouted about losing his starting job, but did just the opposite. He has responded really well to the coaching of Mike Groh and is playing the best football of his young career. Admittedly, that bar is set low, but it is still better than seeing him struggle again. Agholor hasn’t been great. Let’s not overdo this. Simply put, he’s making plays, not mistakes. The best thing is that Agholor has played a lot in the slot with Matthews out. He now is showing he can contribute in the slot or outside. That’s important for a player who won’t be the primary receiver. He needs to be able to fit into whatever spot is open for that series or that game.
The Mack Hollins hype train seems to have settled down quite a bit. I don’t know if he did anything or people just got used to seeing him play well. Hollns has shown that he is more than a STer who has some pass-catching talent. He is a talented WR. We’ll see how he does in Training Camp, but he looks like a player that can contribute as a rookie, on offense and STs.
Bryce Treggs played well in the minicamp. I don’t know if the light suddenly went on for him or what, but he started making plays. Treggs has to stand out in order to win a roster spot. He needs to play like he did this week throughout the month of August.
Marcus Johnson has gotten some positive notes. UDFA Greg Ward has had some good moments. He could develop into a slot receiver. Donnel Pumphrey has worked as a slot receiver quite a bit. He isn’t officially a WR, but could be a contributor in the slot role this season. He’s got the potential to be a playmaker.
There are two clear disappointments. DGB and Shelton Gibson have struggled. Unlike Agholor, DGB doesn’t seem to be embracing the increased level of competition. He might be more focused on the idea that he’s going to be out of a job. Last year he made the Eagles roster because of potential. That’s not good enough this year. He has to produce. He can turn things around in Training Camp, but I wouldn’t count on it. Gibson just seems like the overwhelmed rookie. Mental confusion has led to physical problems, mainly dropped passes. He needs to play better in August to have any shot at a roster spot, or more likely, to secure a spot on the practice squad.
I don’t think anyone will mistake this group for the ’99 Rams anytime soon. That’s fine. Just make sure no one mistakes them for the 2016 Eagles.
_
If, as it now appears, there’s going to be a numbers problem at WR at cut-down time, who goes? Who is tradeable? Who is kept to potentially replace either of the 2 receivers only assured to be here for 1 more year? Not easy answers at this point.
My guess is we keep: Jeffrey, Smith, Matthews, Agholor and Hollins, with Gibson, Treggs and Johnson/Ward hitting the PS.
Alshon, Smith, Ags, and Hollins are all locks baring something unforseen.
JMatt is tradeable. Ags seems to be improving while playing there (still dropping passes but so does JMATT) you’ve also go Burton, Ertz, Pumphrey who can all line up there. I don’t think it happens because he’s a rental but they should at least be listening.
Gibson is tough. He’s not playing well. Doesn’t seem like he’s going to be ready to contribute right now. I’d worry about getting him through waivers especially if he flashes at all in PS because he’s got a defined sticking skill. If Bryce Treggs didn’t clear waivers last year I wouldn’t be hopeful Gibson will either. This might be a prime candidate for a he stubbed his toe IR.
PS: Probably gonna keep 2. Ward seems likely. Gibson if he keeps playing awful. Otherwise Marcus Johnson vs the rest of the fringe guys in the league for the other spot
Gibson is playing terribly. A WR who can’t catch is useless. It doesn’t matter how fast they are. This team has enough wide receivers with drop issues. If another team wants to take him off the ps… Good luck.
He was a WR in college and not a bad one. His catching is mainly mental at this point
I’ve been somewhat of an optimist with Ags for the upcoming season… Basically saying that he has everything going for him this year to turn it around. We’ll see. I understand these things are mental but its a fundamental skill that shouldn’t be this big of an issue in the nfl.
Maybe I see things through rose colored glasses, but I am also hopeful that Ags turns it around.
He has just about everything going for him this year to turn it around, which I hope he does. Doesn’t mean he will, and I’m not holding my breath, but if something doesn’t click for him this year it never will.
He’s a guy with talent but who came out of school early and is raw and had a rough spring.
Also Tedd Ginn’s had a pretty ok career for being a fast guy who can’t catch.
But a WR that ran 3 routes in college should be able to learn the playbook, run all of the routes naturally so they don’t have to second guess their routes and catch the ball.
Cut his bum ass already.
WHY ISN’T DILLON GORDON BEATING OUT JASON PETERS!!!!?
I’d settle for anybody beating out Jason Kelce
That’s like aborting a baby before Dad takes his pants off.
I’m not saying to cut him. Just that if someone takes him of the practice squad oh well.
I believe he’s only dropping catches in drills? A bit of an overreaction don’t you think?
Yeah, he might all of a sudden get better when the level of difficulty increases profoundly.
I’ll take the anti-Jordan Matthews.
All I’m saying is I think he is headed for the practice squad. I’m not going to get upset if another team wants a receiver that can’t catch. Apparently there are those who will be upset about that.
Ok? He hasn’t played a single snap in preseason yet so lets write him off because he’s a rookie struggling in practice. Apparently you have to be perfect in practice as a rookie.
Perfect? Maybe below average would nice. Dropping tons of passes when no one is on you is not even college level bad. Look I’d love to see him do well, and we’ll see how TC and PS goes, but its beyond frustrating to have yet another wr with drop issues.
You’re taking practice way too seriously. If we went by just practice notes, Jordan Matthews would have been already resigned a year ago. Gibson has his flaws and most of them won’t be ironed out in 2 weeks or even a year.
We’ll see. I just wish his issues weren’t drops. Route running, sure fine whatever.
Ags has dropped a shit ton of balls this spring but he’s going to break out this year.
Gibson has dropped a shit ton of balls this spring but he’s not even worth the practice squad.
I don’t get it either
All of this constant negative press covfefe is ruining the Eagles.
NA was a first round pick and has starting experience. He is way ahead of Gibson at this point and is pretty much guaranteed a roster spot. Supposing they both start catching the ball consistently, who is better? My point about Ags was that he has everything going for him to put up better numbers this year. He has to figure out how to catch for sure, but I don’t think Gibson would be at the same level if he can catch and is given the same chances.
At their ceilings Gibson is a better player.
Wow, people are really having a hard time with you saying that as of now it looks like he won’t have a problem making it through waivers…
I mean, if during camp he actually looks like a guy who didn’t just wander in off the street, opinions will change, but I guess you aren’t allowed to make a prediction based on how things look to you right now?
I know, its like I told someone their gf is ugly. I want to see the draft picks pan out as much as anyone, but the reality is that late round draft picks aren’t likely to.
He’s “only” dropping catches in drills. Drill with nobody around him and he still can’t catch the ball.
Yet he’s not dropping catches in team scrimmages. Go back to your cave.
Keep making shit up! It’s been reported he’s been dropping balls in every drill. If he can’t catch a ball just standing there, he can’t catch a ball on the field. Go back to your boyfriend’s crotch.
I’d echo what was said upthread that he stopped with the drops as the week went on.
Do you think there’s a point in which Smith doesn’t distinguish himself enough from a young player behind him like Hollins that we let him go? We would have Ags for depth on the outside if he shows enough… I guess we would also need a young player at on the fringe that we really like to ditch a solid receiver. So yeah that’s a couple conditions that would have to happen. Seems like Smith is safer than I thought.
I think Hollins would have to play out of his mind, holy shit this guy is going to the Hall of Fame level to earn starting status week 1. Let him earn his way on the field.
Torrey’s a professional WR, who by all accounts seems like a good dude, who is doing well, and gives a shit. They gave him a Rueben Randle contract but he’s not having a Rueben Randle camp.
I know he had a good rookie camp but ST ace and a 200 snaps on offense is probably a more reasonable rookie year role for a guy with 81 catches in college.
Any news on Byron Marshall? I thought he switched to WR. Also, i had a question as to what is the benefit of putting Pumphrey in the slot as a wr. Just curious.
I don’t think I’ve seen anyone say anything about Marshall all spring.
He and Paul Turner are both in the top 70 or so but probably have to really stand out to force their way onto the PS or 53.
They seem to view Pumphrey as more of a gadget guy than RB. Think Dexter McCluster/Deanthony Thomas.
agree that Gibson is a prime candidate for mystery IR at this point, learn the system. hopefully TC goes better
I don’t get the notion that Jmatt is tradeable. Sure he ain’t T.O but he is a talented young player, that finishes the year on a rookie deal. He is probably going to have a very solid year, but volume will be down. His number should be damn reasonable. For a team that gave Cooper 30 mil, I don’t get why we would want to dump this kid.
Because he might cost $40 or $45 instead. And the Cooper deal was a disgrace.
Same name, different team.
Because they should in no way extend JMatt. Nice guy. Works hard. Not gonna be worth the contract.
What kind of contract would you deem him worthy of?
5-6 mil AAV. He’s just not a dynamic player. He’s a slot only WR. He lacks gamebreaking ability and it’s not like he’s got Avants hands (and pretty much runs the same route tree avant did).
Let me put it this way. If Jordan’s knee falls off tomorrow, the Eagles could easily duplicate his production with a combination of Ags, Burton and Pumphrey. You don’t give guys 8-10 mil (which is what he’s going to get) if they’re replaceable.
what if (huge speculation here) that the WRs are really, truly improved this year. We’re predicting big #s for Alshon, reasonable #s for Smith, and the TEs. We expect sproles & probably pumphrey to get some catches too.
what i’m getting at is that i don’t think JMatt is going to get nearly the numbers that he has gotten in previous years. He’s a workhorse type WR that needs to get a lot of throws per game.
I think he’s going to get a lot fewer catches this year, and thats going to look worse for him on paper, statistics wise.
do you think something like that sounds about right? do you think that might drive his value down some?
though truth be told, i’m not sure i would want to spend 5-6 M on him, either. I’d rather that money go to someone like Alshon.
His targets will go down but I’m not sure by a ton. We’re still probably going to throw 550 times. Smith isn’t really a volume guy. The backs probably still see similar usage rate to last year.
The two guys who could eat into his targets in a big way are Ertz and Pumphrey. Ertz and he tend to work similar parts of the field/routes. If Ertz starts going off before Decemeber that could have an impact. With Pumphrey we don’t know exactly what this gadget role is going to entail from a receving standpoint. If it’s bubbles mainly whne in the slot then it won’t hurt JMatt cuz he doesn’t do shit on them anyways, but if they decide to start using him on those shallow crossers because he’s a more dynamic YAC threat then it could hurt JMatt.
Volume probably down a bit but efficiency could creep up.
Mohammed Sanu (can play outside so not a perfect comp) was 800-5TD in his best year and had his workload cut in half his contract year still got $7.2 AAV, factor in two years of inflation and that’s probably the floor of 8mil I’d expect for JMatt.
I was thinking 7, but your numbers are fine for me too. Just not so sure he is a lock to get a big payday, so not sure why we would want to just dump him.
I dont think we need to worry about Gibson being picked up by anyone else. Why would anyone want to pick him off of waivers? If he has looked this bad, there is no appeal. Remember, all teams have late round rookies who struggle and doesnt make the cut – if someone picks up Gibson it just means there is another struggling rookie with potential out there that we can find room for. Which would be just as fine.
I think we are over-thinking this. 6 Wrs. Alshon, Smith, Matthews, Ags, Hollis, Gibson.
Gibson is having his challenges, but I’ve read that he’s improved a bit in the last few practices. and he’s a rook, and training camp has not yet started.
Marcus Johnson is the only wild card in my book. And if they do trade Matthews and keep 6, he makes it.
I’m 50/50 on trading Jmat.
Otherwise, I assume chalk.
I think they keep JMatt and watch how Ags, Smith and the rookies develop. If they most play well, they let JMatt walk next year. It’s not worth a 4th rounder to trade him. I’d only trade for a CB but don’t see a team letting go of a decent one
53 man WRs. Jeffery, Smith, Matthews, Agholor, Hollins. That is it. Other rookie to PS hopefully.
Don’t forget the “who gets hurt?” part of that statement.
Keep – Alshon, Torrey, Ags, Hollins, Gibson, one rando
trade – Matthews
cut – everybody else
Gibson has shown absolutely nothing to be kept on the roster. After the venom towards dropping passes the past few years, what justification do you have keeping the guy that has caught like one pass all of camp?
Because his drops haven’t shown up in game situations yet, he was only dropping things badly in drills, and they drafted him high enough that he’s not likely to stay on the P squad without getting taken away. He also might have enough special teams ability to want to keep around to see how he continues to improve.
Ha, “he was only dropping the ball when he was wearing shorts, without a defender on the field! Other teams are going to want him on their 53!”
I say if he doesn’t improve in August, we take the (extremely low) risk of PS’ing him. Based on the Bryce Treggs precedent, he probably would’ve had a better shot at making a roster by not practicing at all!
But that’s only for now. He may look better in drills in camp. And put down better game tape. There is a lot of time between now and the day we cut from 90 to 53.
Definitely. All bets are off if he actually looks okay in August.
After all, *takes off hat and wipes away tear* we all remember what happened to Mostert…
Unfair cut in favor of trash!
Yeah, Gibson’s looked bad enough in camp that no one is going to poach him if we stash him on the practice squad. They won’t want him on the roster if he can’t catch a football…
cya Treggs. You and DGB will have plenty of stool time at the bar.
He will get his chance during camp
M. Johnson, Treggs, Turner, Ward. After being in WR wasteland, it’s difficult to see players start to develop,be on the cusp of making the team, get caught in the numbers game at cut-down & then blossom for another team. I suppose that’s acceptable if the WR’s who make the team over them are All-Pros for the Eagles for years going forward. But it’s uncertain if any are All-Pros or will even be with the team for more than a year or two.
From BGN: Wentz and the primary wrs are working out and hanging together in ND https://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2017/6/16/15815768/carson-wentz-alshon-jeffery-eagles-players-north-dakota-torrey-smith-quarterback-passing-camp-work
Cool, right?
Maybe, just maybe, Wentz becomes the qb we hope he can be behind a healthy line that protects him. Jefferey puts up huge numbers, Smith becomes a dangerous deep threat, and someone (anyone) becomes a dependable slot receiver, all the while Blount and Sproles produce a dynamic run game. Plus, the D line becomes a mini-Gang Green, Hicks becomes a Pro Bowl lb, and the d-backs surprise everyone with solid play.
I had earlier figured the Eagles to be an 8 or 9 win team, but if these pieces fall into place, they could be an 11-5 team. And if Jason Peters says they’re good enough to contend for the Super Bowl, well, he’s too much of a bad-ass for me to argue. Fly Eagles Fly.
you left out the part where Pederson becomes Bill Walsh, but otherwise I’m right there with you!
Oh, man, you’re taking it to a whole new level!
Is it bad that I expect this of him?
Do you mean Carson? Or my crazy posts?
Carson, lol. Sorry about the confusion there!
13-3
Save this post. Eagles go 13-3 and we all buy you drinks.
That can’t be right, Wentz has “sucked” in practice so 11-5 is right.
Yes, IF our QB becomes an elite QB, our WRs and RBs all put up elite production, our oline stays completely healthy, our Dline rivals one of the best dlines ever assembled, our MLB becomes a probowler and our CBs surprise everyone and play well, we’ll definitely be a good team. And, while I’m on board with a lot of that actually happening, you essentially listed the entire team and said if all these players play extremely well we’ll be a good team. I’m pretty sure that’s true for all teams in every years.
Darn you, man, you’ve ruined my fantasy.
“I don’t think anyone will mistake this group for the ’99 Rams anytime soon.”
A team that needed the refs to cheat Tampa out of a win in the NFC title game? That was 100% a catch by Bert Emanuel.
Yeah but F that Tampa team. And Tampa in general. I’d have thought you’d be the conductor of the “F-Tampa” train.
What a shitty city and set of teams.
I generally dislike that Tampa team, but with a few bits of context.
I’m a big Warren Sapp fan because I was 100% convinced the Eagles were going to draft him in 1995, but we moved up for nonsense Mike Mamula instead while Tampa wound up with a Warren Sapp / Derrick Brooks sampler platter courtesy of extra picks…….our extra picks.
I absolutely detest Kurt Warner. The bagger story is cool and all that, but the guy didn’t deserve to be in the HOF. I especially detest him because use his devout nature to one particular type of religion as some type of universal measuring stick of being a good person. His anti-evolution tweeting also allowed stupid people to remain ignorant on vital science.
Well if you detest KW for reasons outside the lines, Sapp gives you way more ammo. I am so glad he never wore the eagles jersey.
Chris Baker
Joe Theisman
Chris Samuels
Trent Williams
Pierre Garcon
Mark Rypin
Dan Snyder
Bigoted Mascot
Eli Manning
Phil Simms
JPP
Lawrence Taylor
Jeremy Shockey
Odell Beckham
Wife beating kicker
Tiki Barber
Michael Strahan
Jason Seahorn
Bill Parcells
Plexiglas Burress
Tom Coughlin
Jimmy Johnson
Michael Irvin
Jerry Jones
Dak Prescott
Ziggy Elliot
Moose Johnston
Neon Deion Sanders
Brian Urlacher
Jim Miller
Fog
Darren Sharper
Bryce Paup
Joe Webb
Lomas Brown
Michael Vick
DeAngelo Hall
Brian Finneran
Tyson Clabo
John Fourcade
Scam Newton
Jake DelHomme
Kurt Coleman
*Philly Brown
Ronde Barber
Joe Jurevicius
Rusell Okung
Kurt Warner
Adam Archuleta
Kaep
Randy Cross
Jim Harbaugh
Jed York
Denise DeBartolo York
Dan Dierdorf
Dan Marino
Larry Csonka
Ricky Williams
Sean McDermott
Rob Johnson
Boomer
Julian Eddleman
Aaron Hernandez
Vince Young
Bud Adams
Fred Taylor
Arian Foster
The whole Isray family
Bill Cowher
Chuck Noll
Terry Bradshaw
Lynn Swann
Jerome Bettis
Troy Palumalo
James Harrison
Jimmy Haslem
Art Modell
Ray Rice
Chris Henry
Bill Romanowski
Fans that argued Terrell Davis into the HOF
Eric Weddle
Lyle Alzado
Barret Robbins
Jovan Belcher
W
O
W
…
Actually impressive. Eli was in there , not sure why ..
..
But you do agree that Sapp is a world class jack assss , worthless annoying as a commentator, jerk on the field, 6kids from 5 women and doesnt pay child support … he’s like the poster, make that billboard for the cliché
..
Anyhoo, giant fans barely brag about LT any more, and he was way better and less worse than Sapp as far as losers go.
.
Im gonna google some of these cats you’ve pointed out ..but I’m not gonna get all wrapped up in it. .
..Save to say that id bet a huge % of the dopes that bought Sapp jersies are now far too ashamed to ever wear them
You’re 100% correct on Sapp, but here is why I like him.
– He’s who I wanted us to draft when we moved up and took Mamula the human skid mark. Sapp is in the HOF while Mamula couldn’t stop being drunk 24-7.
– He was the ONLY guy on Miami’s team in their bowl game who attempted to play well against bullshit Nebraska. That Nebraska team was complete trash and should have NEVER been gifted a national title of Penn State.
– His rant vs. Green Bay’s crybaby coach after the Chad Clifton incident was Godly. “Put a uniform on!”
1. Good pre-draft call.
2. Ok, i never picked up on that
3. I liked that rant also.. he probably only had 2 kids outside his marriage by then
And to clarify, this is my personal hate list. It doesn’t necessarily carry on to anybody else’s POV.
Double upvote FOG .. ha!!!! World class how you stuck that in ther, literally made me laff out loud
..id h ave fat andy’s sons in there … õops ther i go again
I’m not sure how far back you go, but the fog bowl game was such a massive kick in the crotch. That 88 team was REALLY exciting.
70s. Oh yes i was there. . Wilbert is my favorite all time player. Always wonder why they didn’t throw to Carmichael 40 times a game, was never a fan of polish rifle.
You have me beat by a few years. 77 birthday here, so my full memory of the Eagles start 85ish
I wudve said Terrell Davis even got Elway into The Hall.
Id also put mark McGuire on the list just in case
And
Of
Course
..
CHIP
You would’ve loved Wilbert.
Hilarious.
I’m glad you enjoyed that. Dave asked a question, so I felt obliged to answer.
And an amazing answer it is.
Thank you. I could give context for each and every one of them as well, but that’s a tad nutty even for me.
You absolutely forgot Heath Evans.
http://settingedge.com/sackskilldrives
Some stats to generate more hype for the new DL lineup.
Vinny Curry doesn’t see your point.
Whoa, Woj reporting that the Sixers are in advanced talks to move up to take Fultz with the #1 pick.
Sixers not playing around, and how useful will that swap with Sacramento end up being if they use #3 to get up to #1?
Next years starting 5 could be Embiid Saric Simmons Fultz and ?
#phillysportsstarsurnameendswithz
BEN Fultz 5
It’s an interesting setup for sure.
If Gibson’s appeal is that he’s fast and a ST guy, it seems to me that Treggs is gonna get his roster spot.
Or we might just carry 5 receivers, who knows. Treggs is going to have to distinguish himself more than he has I think to make the team this year.
It wasn’t an argument for Treggs as much as it was against Gibson.
I have to imagine the ‘Mack Hollins hype train’ doesn’t have many cars attached to it and that it doesn’t have much hauling capacity.
Cars might get added during camp. I’m just excited that he can catch the ball. That alone puts him ahead of half of the receivers on the team. Add in the special teams aspect and he’s looking like a solid draft pick.
funny that the guy that does nothing more than reliably catch the ball in drills becomes a fan favorite, haha.
(i’m on the train, here’s to this year’s Na Brown Award winner!)
I think he’s going to be a better pro than college player
Can any of the WRs play DB? They can’t be much worse at positioning on the ball on the Eagles’ DBs were last season.
Surprised that Tommy does not think Peters is HoF worthy yet. He’s been a dominant, pro-bowl OT his entire career and one the outright most athletic to play the position.
Might have to do with not winning a playoff game in all that time — that is when guys get more “known” to HoF voters, and Peters may not be in enough voters’ minds. Part of that is QB — he came at the end of the McNabb era, and the Eagles have gotten bursts of good play, but not consistently year-to-year. He may see Wentz as what gets him noticed more.
Tommy is just keeping him hungry.
Is this WR group good enough to make Wentz fantasy relevant?
“Simply put, he’s [Agholor is] making plays, not mistakes.”
Great wordplay to go along with the insightful analysis that is generally found on this page 🙂