The Freak Show
Posted: April 23rd, 2013 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 85 Comments »Chip Kelly wants big guys. He also wants athletes. Let’s take a look at some guys who could be of interest to him. First up are some special athletes that we’ve already discussed quite a bit:
QB EJ Manuel
RB Knile Davis
RB Kerwynn Williams
WR Tavon Austin
WR Marquise Goodwin
WR Ryan Swope
OT Lane Johnson
OT Terron Armstead
LB Jamie Collins
LB/DE Ziggy Ansah
LB Dion Jordan
LB Barkevious Mingo
LB Corey Lemonier
LB Michael Buchanan
S Eric Reid
S TJ McDonald
Now for some others…
DE Margus Hunt – SMU – 6-8, 277 — Hunt might be the most Chip Kelly guy in the whole NFL draft. He is huge. His workout numbers are freakishly good:
4.60 in the 40… 38 reps… 34.5 VJ… 10-1 BJ… 7.07 in the 3-cone.
This is a guy that can run, jump, bend, turn, explode, and has upper body strength. Hunt would be our prime target at pick 35 except for one issue…he will turn 26 this summer. That means Hunt is at his physical peak. The Eagles still could take him, but that age will affect his draft value.
In the past, I’ve written that Hunt didn’t impress me. He was a workout warrior. I watched more tape and he grew on me. The coaches said he got much better as the season went on. That would match up with what I saw on tape. Hunt blocked 17 kicks in his career so he offers impact on STs as well as defense. Really intriguing player.
ATH Lawrence Okoye – 6-5, 304 — I have no idea what to make of Okoye. He is huge and athletic, which makes him of interest. However, he isn’t a football player. I would have no problem with the Eagles risking a 7th round pick on him. Okoye could become a good OL or DL with that size/speed. It is easier to learn DE, but having the aggressive personality for that role is a whole other story. Here’s the info from Gil Brandt:
“An Olympic discus thrower, Okoye reportedly turned down an offer to attend Oxford University to try out for the NFL. He ran the 40-yard dash in 4.88 and 4.78 seconds. He performed the short shuttle in 4.38 seconds, had a 10-foot-5 broad jump and a 35-inch vertical jump. His arms were measured to be 35 inches long.”
TE Travis Kelce – Cincinnati – 6-5, 255 — Kelce is a former QB who became a very good TE in 2012. Kelly will love his size, skills, and athletic ability. Here’s the info from Gil Brandt:
“Kelce (6-foot-5 1/4, 250 pounds) ran the 40-yard dash in 4.62 and 4.65 seconds. He had a 35-inch vertical jump and a 10-foot-4 broad jump. He did the short shuttle in 4.47 seconds and the three-cone drill in 7.12 seconds. Due to the sports hernia injury, I’m told that the scouts on hand didn’t think Kelce was in optimum condition for the workout. He got sick after running his 40s, and did not run any routes. He was able to catch passes while in a stationary position during the workout.”
RB Latavius Murray – UCF – 6-3, 223 — Big RB who stood out to me while watching him play in the Texas vs The Nation all star game. UCF tape is impressive as well. Here’s his workout info:
“Murray ran the 40-yard dash in 4.40 and 4.38 seconds. He had a 10-foot-4 broad jump and a 36-inch vertical jump. He did the short shuttle in 4.36 seconds and the three-cone drill in 6.81 seconds. He also performed 22 lifts of 225 pounds on the bench press. Murray was not at the combine, but has had a lot of workouts with NFL teams. This is a hot prospect right now and will be a draftable guy later this month.”
S Cooper Taylor – Richmond – 6-5, 228 — Big time player at a small school. Transferred from Georgia Tech and had a good career for the Spiders. There were times when he looked like the best player on the field. Other times he was inconsistent. There is no doubt that he’s big and athletic. The scoop:
“Taylor ran 4.58 and 4.49, did 36½” in the vertical, 10-foot-7 in the broad jump, 4.29 in the short-shuttle, 6.96 in the three-cone and 23 reps on the bench press.”
RB George Winn -Cincinnati – 5-10, 218 — He lacks ideal agility, which you can see on tape and his 3-cone/SS workout times. Winn has good size and is a north-south runner. He can be effective when he’s able to attack the LOS. He runs hard, stays behind his pads, and doesn’t waste motion. Some RBs dance when they don’t need to. Winn runs straight until someone is in his way. Here is an argument for him, showing his explosiveness.
LB/DE Mike Catapano – Princeton – 6-4, 271 — Ivy League Def. POY. Talented pass rusher who has NFL ability. And athleticism.
“At his pro day, Catapano (6-foot-3 7/8, 271 pounds) ran the 40-yard dash in 4.75 seconds on each attempt. He had a 37 1/2-inch vertical jump and a 9-foot-8 broad jump. He ran the short shuttle in 4.31 seconds and the three-cone drill in 7.09 seconds. Catapano threw the bar up 33 times on the bench press (225 pounds).”
TE Josh Hill – Idaho State – 6-5, 246 — Productive I-AA player, but the numbers don’t match his workout. Only averaged 9 yards per reception, not enough for a guy with his athletic ability.
“He posted a time of 4.66 seconds in the 40-yard dash and a 4.19 short shuttle run. He had a 36 ½ vertical jump and a 10-foot-7 broad jump. He took part in positional workouts with Idaho State quarterback Kevin Yost throwing the ball to him.”
WR Brice Butler – 6-3, 214 – San Diego State — USC transfer. Failed to post huge numbers at SDSU (24-346-4), but absolutely showed NFL athleticism at his Pro Day:
“Butler ran the 40-yard dash in 4.37 and 4.41 seconds, had a 39-inch vertical, a 10-foot-9 broad jump, and 4.40-second short shuttle and 6.70 three-cone drill. He’s a bit of a long strider but he caught the ball well.”
WR Marcus Davis – 6-4, 226 – Virginia Tech — Averaged more than 18 yards per catch for the Hokies. Big WR with excellent athleticism. Had a very good workout at his Pro Day:
” Davis ran the 40-yard dash in 4.50 and 4.48 seconds. He had a 39-inch vertical jump and did the short shuttle in 4.20 seconds. Davis really worked out well.”
WR Terrell Sinkfield – Northern Iowa – 6-0, 199 — Dynamic athlete, but his production is mediocre. Has career numbers of 76-1092-10. His Pro Day numbers showed much more:
” Sinkfield ran the 40 in 4.33, 4.36 and 4.38 seconds (initially, 4.19 was his reported 40 time). The 13 teams present determined Sinkfield’s official 40 time, and that time goes out to all the teams. Sinkfield also had a 40 1/2-inch vertical and 11-foot-5 broad jump, a 4.18-second short shuttle and 6.94-second three-cone drill, and had 12 strength lifts of 225 pounds on the bench. Sinkfield looked good in the receiver drills.”
RB Kendial Lawrence – Missouri – 5-9, 194 — Chip Kelly does like small RBs. Lawrence was productive and would be a good fit in Kelly’s offense. His Pro Day numbers were very impressive:
“Lawrence — who was not invited to the combine — ran the 40 in 4.33 and 4.45 seconds. He had a 37-inch vertical jump and a 10-foot-5 broad jump. He did the short shuttle in 4.33 seconds and the three-cone drill in 6.95 seconds. He also performed 19 lifts of 225 pounds on the bench press. Lawrence is a small running back, but looked good in the workout and displayed quickness. Because of his pro day performance, Lawrence could be selected as high as the seventh round or get a look as a rookie free-agent pickup.”
S Don Jones – Arkansas State – 5-11, 191 — Another smaller guy, but Kelly seems somewhat open to that. Jones was a very good player for ASU and had a good Pro Day:
“Jones ran a 4.42- and 4.40-second 40-yard dash, had a 42-inch vertical jump and 10-foot-7 broad jump. He ran the short-shuttle in 4.48 seconds, the three-cone drill in 7.19 seconds and had 17 reps of 225 pounds. He’s described as one of those fifth or sixth defensive backs due to his speed.’
QB Jeff Tuel – Washington State – 6-3, 218 — Up and down career at WSU, but has NFL talent. Very athletic QB.
“Tuel ran the 40 in 4.60 and 4.65 seconds. He had a 4.12-second short shuttle and a 6.90-second three-cone drill. He had a 32-inch vertical jump and a 9-foot-3 broad jump. Tuel had a great pro day, and I suspect that he will have a strong showing when he has a workout with the New England Patriots on March 22.”
WR Charles Johnson – Grand Valley State – 6-2, 215 — Caught 31 TDs over the last 2 years. Dominated D2 competition. Had a great showing at his Pro Day, but does have some issues:
“Johnson (6-foot-2, 215 pounds) ran the 40-yard dash in 4.38 and 4.39 seconds. He had a 4.31-second short shuttle and 6.96-second three-cone drill. He had a 39 1/2-inch vertical jump and an 11-foot-1 broad jump. He performed 14 lifts of 225 pounds on the bench press. The receivers coaches from the Arizona Cardinals and New York Jets were present in Allendale, Mich. for the workout.
Johnson’s pro-day efforts would have placed him among the top performers at the combine inthe 40, vertical jump and broad jump. Before his pro day, Johnson had guaranteed that he’d run a 4.39, reports MLive.com.
Johnson does have a red flag, having bounced around between different schools. He initially went to Eastern Kentucky, where he was suspended. He then attended Antelope Valley Community College (Calif.) in 2008, took a season off in 2009, and was at Grand Valley State starting in 2010.”
DE Glenn Foster – Illinois – 6-3, 286 — Played DT for the Illini, but would be a 5-tech DE for the Eagles. Only had 4 sacks in his career, but his Pro Day showed top athleticim:
“Foster ran the 40-yard dash in 4.82 and 4.79 seconds, had a 4.45-second short shuttle and a 7.15-second three-cone drill. He recorded a 39 1/2-inch vertical jump and a 10-foot-9 broad jump. He also had 29 lifts of 225 pounds on the bench press. Foster was not invited to the NFL Scouting Combine. Foster had a fantastic workout, and he would have been the top performer in his position group at the combine in thevertical jump and broad jump. Foster will have a lot of scouts scrambling back to the film room to see why he didn’t have a better draft grade and wasn’t invited to the combine.”
* * * * *
Jimmy Beast did a really interesting thing today. He did a mock draft, pick by pick, with detailed write-ups for each pick. For the Eagles, he took LB Dion Jordan.
I know some of you hate the Jordan pick. You have various reasons and that’s fine. There is risk involved. You can argue that the Eagles should go for X or Y or Z (Kelly’s favorite), but in the end…there are no truly safe picks in this Top 10.
Lance Zierlein wrote a piece trying to explain why guys with limited production are so highly coveted this year. He offers a pretty good explanation.
_
No mention of Denard Robinson?
This.
I would love to get him in the third. I think he could be a fantastic playmaker for Kelly. I know Tommy likes the idea of Tavon Austin (as do I), but I think Denard could provide a lot of the same things. Obviously Tavon is more of a receiver than a runner, whereas I’d view Denard as the opposite, but both are fast and dangerous with the balls in their hands. Obviously it’s a huge projection regarding his receiving abilities, but I think Denard could be successful with 5-6 catches and a similar number of targets in the slot a game.
3rd is too high for a guy who’s learning his new position. I remember people talking about him lasting till the 6th.
Denard will be an Eagles target, but I didn’t think he posted great numbers. There is no question the guy is a very gifted athlete. And he could be a dangerous slot receiver.
Chip: “Tie your F’in shoes a$$h***E”
Tommy one thing with Okoye, he did play rugby so the physical part should be no problem
I thought rugby was a sissy game that foreigners played
(ducks for safety)
Just joking. That’s a great point and really does make a difference. Adjusting to the physicality of football is the hardest part. Anyone with a rugby background can take and give a hit. I’ve never played, but I did use to drink with the rugby team in college. Fun, bizarre parties.
a good long story about him http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/apr/15/lawrence-okoye-nfl-draft-discus
Mention the rugby part in the end. Apperantly he is pretty smart as well as he was able to get into Oxford and study law
In my mock draft the Eagles got all the players.
All of them.
LOL
ALL YOUR PLAYER BELONG TO US.
From Adam Schefter “Feeling is OTs Luke Joeckel and Eric Fisher will be first two players picked Thursday night. Then Oakland’s turn…”
Looks like Jordan might be able to fall to us after all.
I’m trying not to let myself get too excited, but that is very encouraging.
“S Don Jones – Arkansas State – 5-11, 101 — Another smaller guy”
Heh. Somebody get that man some pudding!
I just fed him a lot of pudding and re-weighed him. Jones is now 191. You may have saved his life. Kudos.
The thing that struck me most watching tape of Margus Hunt is how awkward he looks when he runs. He’s so upright; I honestly don’t understand how he’s able to run so fast with that technique.
Couple of good nuggets up at:
http://eaglesblog.net/
interesting notes on Tavon and Nick Foles. I get the sense that while Chip regards athleticism as a positive thing, everyone does, it isn’t like he doesn’t value things like pocket-presence and good decision making among other traditional QB skills/attributes. Ideally you want it all. But ultimately he will take the most effective football player. To put some context to this, I believe Chip is among the people who prefers Andrew Luck over RGIII. Both are awesome and have it all, but Luck is a barely more refined as a passer while RGIII has slightly better athleticism (he used it better imo at least).
Also I think Peter King’s comment is about perspective. I commented a while back that I’m ok with Geno if Chip REALLY likes him, but honestly the way I see it, if we take him, he isn’t a clear upgrade over our current options in year 1. And since he would be battling a year 2 player….they could battle for years as the each develop.
I think the real take away here is you don’t use your #4 on a guy that is a little too close to your other young QB’s. You only do this if you have nothing or the prospect is a crystal clear upgrade.
S Don Jones – Arkansas State – 5-11, 101 ……..17 reps at 225…this guy have no legs? he sure must be strong…
Can anyone shed some more light on Marcus Davis — big tall fast great vert … what round is he projected; weaknesses, etc???:
WR Marcus Davis – 6-4, 226 – Virginia Tech — Averaged more than 18 yards per catch for the Hokies. Big WR with excellent athleticism. Had a very good workout at his Pro Day:
“ Davis ran the 40-yard dash in 4.50 and
4.48 seconds. He had a 39-inch vertical jump and did the short shuttle
in 4.20 seconds. Davis really worked out well.”
Overview
Davis was a quarterback and receiver in high school (while
also playing defense), and dipped his feet into both positions in his
first year in Blacksburg. He moved from quarterback to receiver in order
to make an instant impact, rather than sitting on the bench behind
starter Tyrod Taylor. Unfortunately, a right shoulder injury during
preseason practices forced Davis to redshirt the season. He managed only
five catches for 125 yards the following year, including an 80-yard
touchdown against Boston College. Davis’ role grew a bit in 2010,
starting two of the 14 games he played and catching 19 passes for 239
yards and two scores. He took another step forward in 2011, getting the
call for eight starts in 14 contests (though he missed significant parts
of two games with a sprained right foot), finishing third on the team
in receiving (30-510, 5 TD). As a senior, Davis totaled 51 catches for
953 yards (18.69 yards per catch) and five touchdowns.
Analysis
Strengths Possesses prototypical size and speed
combination to be an outside NFL starter. Smooth runner off the line and
turns on a second gear downfield that allows him to separate. His size
overwhelms smaller cornerbacks, can fight through their advances and go
over the top to take away the jump ball. Uses his body to shield corners
on slants. Flashes the footwork to stop and separate on out routes
after pushing his man upfield. Good concentration to track the ball over
his shoulder on deep balls. Can be a bullish runner after the catch,
also capable of spinning away from tackles after a stop route then turn
on the jets. Has the size and length to dominate corners in the run
game.
Weaknesses Still learning the position, must take
advantage of increased opportunities and experience as a senior and show
scouts he can handle the complexity of NFL offenses. Body-catches
passes thrown into his frame. Want-to as a blocker is severly lacking.
Does not attack targets or lock onto smaller defenders often enough,
will throw a shoulder instead of using his hands. Has lapses in
concentration. Must consistently run out his routes, even when he knows
he’s not the primary target.
NFL Comparison Tommy Streeter
Bottom Line This former quarterback has an elite
combination of size and speed, but has only flashed those skills. Davis’
combine performance could considerably boost his draft stock, even
though he isn’t overly refined as a receiver at this point. Even though
he lacks in various aspects of the game, it’s hard to imagine a team not
taking a chance on him in the middle rounds.
Yep just read that as well. Sounds like he was benched for not blocking. Chip won’t like that at all for a big wr. But I really like that he was a qb … shows he is smart and can understand schemes … probably isnt a rep guy. His measurables are intriguiging.
If he was available in the 6th I would seriously consider him.
Watched his whole career because I’m a Hokie and forced myself to suffer through the last few seasons. Hard to judge Davis because the VT offense was so horrendous. The knock on him is that he wasn’t big on blocking as a WR… but I would think it’s hard to be motivated to block as a WR when your offense is sputtering so far out of control.
A 6′ 5” safety?!?! Would Cooper Taylor be the tallest Safety in league? I like the idea of him against tight ends if he can cover.
As a Spider, I humbly submit we’re all poison and should be avoided like the plague.
I hear Cooper Taylor can make a barrel and hem your pants at the same time…
I think you’re going to get fined by the Commissioner for that. Jokes detrimental to the league.
Honestly, with all of these new offense-friendly rules, I don’t know how I’m supposed to post anymore.
Hey Tommy, long time reader but first time poster. I’m surprised you didn’t have Ty Powell on the list as well. From the list, I’ve seen Latavius Murray and Charles Johnson play… on youtube. Here’s hoping that Howie drafts one or all of them.
Funny story, I was trying to see what the hype for Margus Hunt was and watched the SMU vs UCF game. Instead of Margus Hunt, I see Latavius Murray running hard and getting TDs so I look him up instead. I like his skillset, a north-south runner with speed that is also decent as a receiver and blocker. Would love for us to draft him.
I couldn’t tell much from the videos I’ve seen some Charles Johnson. I think he looked a bit like Maclin in some of the videos except he plays bigger than Maclin.
I mentioned Ty Powell earlier. He played some safety in college so I think he could cover and you already mentioned his pass rushing in a earlier post.I like him as a project OLB that could develop into both OLB spots.Would the Eagles be interested in him or do you think it’s still early to give up on Brandon Graham and Trent Cole?
Powell impressed the heck out of me at the Senior Bowl. Good football player. Good athlete. But he’s 6-2. That’s short to Kelly. Would Chip be willing to take him or not? These are the kinds of things we don’t know. Chip prefers tall players, but does that mean no short guys or what…
Per our latest “Eagles checking in with Tavon Austin” rumor, what do people think about the following trade back scenarios?
If the top 3 go:
1) Joeckel
2) Fisher
3) Floyd
We might be in a position to set Detroit (#5), Arizona (#7), San Diego (#11) and possibly Miami (#12… pending Branden Albert) against each other.
– If we trade with Detroit, we might pick up a 4th and a 6th (assuming slightly less value than last year’s Cleveland/Minnesota swap at #3). Then we could either trade again for someone coveting Jordan, or simply take him.
– If we trade with Arizona, we might pick up a little more (add a 7th to the 4th and 6th rounder?, or their 3rd and 6th?). We might still get Jordan (much less likely), probably get Ansah, and almost assuredly Tavon Austin – unless someone else trades with Cleveland to get in front of us (NYJ?).
– If we trade with San Diego or Miami, I assume we’d get much more (at least a 3rd and change, maybe a 2nd?), but also be looking at likely none of Dion Jordan, Tavon Austin, or Ziggy Ansah, and probably looking at Mingo, Warmack or Star – nice players, but not as potentially impactful (to me, anyway).
I guess I’m not sure if the extra compensation we’d get to drop to 11th or 12th is worth the drop in talent (obviously pending how the board develops and how much San Diego or Miami offers for #4). If we drop one spot and can still take Jordan – that’s great. If we drop 3 spots, I still think we can get an impact player (possibly Jordan, but almost certainly our choice of Ansah or Austin). If we drop any further, I’d worry that we’d be in that talent plateau where pick #11 is just as good as #25…
EXTRA THOUGHT: Do people think we’d be in a better or worse trade position if Lane Johnson goes 2nd instead of Fisher?
My intuition is that Fisher is higher on more boards overall, especially teams with man blocking. He’s a much more refined player and definitely the better player right now. So if Lane went second, the Eagles would be better off.
Good point. In my follow-up to Isky’s great response, I wondered whether the perceived Eagles’ preference has any bearing… as in, if teams think we’re more likely to draft Johnson than Fisher, would it lower the price if Fisher was available (not Johnson). But I do guess the more important factor is which guy is rated higher for more teams.
In terms of my own preference between the two (as potential Eagles), I like Johnson’s upside, athleticism, and familiarity with an up-tempo offense more than Fisher’s more game-ready skills but lack of experience against better athletes. In a greater sense, I’m not sure either guy’s skill-set is that much better than a couple of the round 2 targets (Kyle Long, Justin “T-Rex” Pugh, Menelik Watson)… ergo, I would trade for more picks, take Jordan, and/or climb aboard the Tavon train…
My personal preference is to trade back to 11 or 12. I think you still would have a great chance at drafting Tavon if that’s who you wanted, plus I think many people may argue that Warmack and Star are equally talented players as the guys taken earlier. Warmack’s issue is he is playing a less valued position and Star’s issue is that he had the heart issue (which appears to be cleared). I’ve seen plenty of people argue Star is the best DT in this draft, and is a better prospect than Floyd for example (although, I wouldn’t be surprised to see any of those 3 guys, Tavon, Chance, or Star, drafted in the top 10, while someone we don’t expect to make it out of the top 10 falls).
The way I see it, no one in the top of the draft is a sure thing. When you take a step back and look at these players individually rather than in the context of “top 10 in this draft” talent, whether you love Jordan or not, or strongly believe in Johnson’s upside, these guys have very significant red flags. That certainly doesn’t mean they will be busts or will not succeed in the NFL by any means. They could end up dominating and being impact players. The point is, they have significant concerns that could also lead to them being busts. Since this group of top end talent is considered relatively weak compared to previous years (where we have seen plenty of sure-thing prospects fail), I’d rather add valuable picks in this draft in the 2nd or 3rd round, especially because I’m not sure the drop off in talent, moving from 4 to 12, is all that significant.
As for your Lane Johnson vs. Fisher question, I guess it really comes down to how the teams view Fisher vs. Johnson. If teams have similar ratings on the OTs as most draftboards, Fisher is the higher rated player and that would probably improve the trade position we are in. Of course, Tommy for example has Johnson rated higher, and for all we know, teams may feel similarly about those two players. If we assume for most teams that Fisher is the higher rated player (which would be entirely based on the majority of draft boards and not necessarily what teams really feel), I’d think it would only help our bargaining position. Honestly, I’d love for there to be a scenario where both Fisher and Jordan make it to our pick. I’m not sure there is any likelihood of that happening at all, but I think that would probably put us in the best position to make a trade happen (or if you really like either player, you could draft them).
Good points all around.
So you’d pull the trigger on whatever trade nets the most, and then follow your board at 11 or 12. Also – to your point – it seems like one of my “targets” could slip down there anyway…. especially if Buffalo really takes Nassib, and the Jets take Geno.
RE: Star, I don’t know what it is that I do or don’t see in him, but for some reason the “boom” of his boom or bust doesn’t seem as boomy as others.
RE: Fisher or Johnson having more value to us if available at #4, I wonder if the league perception in our interest in Fisher makes a difference. As an example, if it seems much more likely that we’d take Johnson (as opposed to Fisher), does that lower the price of our pick?
To Neil’s point below, I suppose the more important metric is which guy the other teams have rated higher, but I do wonder if the “if you don’t trade for this pick we’re going to take him” bluff is weakened if it’s Fisher and not Jordan.
The one thing I should have added is that my strategy of trading down assumes that you would get reasonable value in return for the trade down (it will be less than the trade value chart, but if we are moving from 4 to 12, a 2nd round or at least an impressive deal involving a 3rd round pick plus more has to be involved).
I guess it may have a small effect, but I think the overwhelming majority of the value of that pick comes from other team’s interest in that player. For example, If teams are worried that the Lions will take Fisher if he gets to them, they will try to trade in front of them. In terms of the Lions however, if they are worried we have a trade in place with a team like Arizona, but they want Fisher, they could consider trading up with us by offering a slightly better deal than what Arizona would offer.
Yeah… that’s why we should cross our fingers for two tackles and Floyd in front of us. It’s possible Oakland trades out and we wind up with Joeckel, Fisher, Johnson… then I guess we take Jordan and move on.
It would be great if we can drop down and pick up another 2nd. In a perfect world, we would trade that pick, too, in an attempt to “ladder up” for next year… though that depends on who we take with our first and how the board looks at the end of day 1.
Oakland should be looking to trade down regardless of who gets picked. 2 reasons – a) they don’t have a 2nd round pick, and b) Is anyone else going to pick Floyd? He’s not a prototypical 3-4 guy and most of the Ds in the top 10 are 3-4 (bar Detroit who is loaded at DT). Even if they trade down and miss Floyd, ANYONE could upgrade their team it’s so awful. So I think Oakland trades down to whomever is most desperate. I’m picking Detroit as someone who would be comfortable enough to move up a couple of spots, leapfrog us who might pick Lane, and nab him for themselves.
And then we can take Milliner. No one agrees with me, but I don’t care…Jordan and Austin are fantasy land picks in my opinion.
Okay, I got some thoughts here.
I’m really not sold on anybody at #4. Every single one of them has got red flags and there’s no slam-dunk guy that’s a must have. I think that makes it much easier to accept a trade-down if there’s a player another team really covets. If we’re stuck at 4 and can’t get any interest in a trade at all, then I’ll take whoever has the highest upside (which pretty much narrows it down to one of Johnson, Jordan or Ansah)
If the first three picks go as you predict (a reasonable suggestion), that means we can afford to trade back to #6 whilst still being guaranteed one of the three guys I’d be targeting. If we assume that the Browns aren’t looking to trade up, the next best thing would be Arizona where you’re still pretty likely to hit one of those three and failing that you take Austin.
It’s all pretty simple at that point because we’re still dealing in picks where the number of guys that have been selected is smaller than the number of guys you’re happy to have.
I don’t see the Chargers as a legit team to move up. They’ve got enough desire, but I don’t think they’ve got enough picks.
That leaves Miami. If they offer a second and a third, I’d rip their arm off and worry about the board afterward. If not, it becomes a slightly trickier decision. The first thing to consider is what do we think the Eagles will have as their draft board? If I were compiling it, I’d go with something like:
1 – Jordan
2 – Johnson
3 – Joeckel
4 – Fisher
5 – Ansah
6 – Austin
7 – Mingo
8 – Rhodes
9 – Cooper
10 – Warmack
11 – Milliner
I don’t think the Eagles will have Floyd on their board since he’s pretty redundant when you already have Cox, but he should go in that range. There’s a chance Star (imo the most overrated player in the draft) comes off the board somewhere up there too. Maybe Buffalo or the Jets draft a QB.
I think, having gone through the exercise of actually making a board, a trade down to 12 still pretty much guarantees the Eagles a decent player, almost certainly one of their top-10, possibly Austin or Mingo are still available, if not I’d be pretty stoked with Rhodes who should still be there. I think the benefit of an extra pick in the mid-second (assuming that’s what Miami would be giving up) makes that a pretty enticing trade.
The situation you haven’t mentioned (and my personal preference) is the Jets. They’ve just got an extra first round pick and have a chance to make some real improvements on their team. Their biggest needs (outside of quarterback) are LB, CB and WR. The latter two are pretty deep this year, so maybe they feel like trading up from 9 to grab Dion and taking Geno at 13 (assuming he falls; best available CB, of which there will be a few in that range, if he doesn’t) is the best way to address things. A trade back to 9 is pretty much the ideal combination of maximising compensation whilst also staying within range of getting an impact player at the top of the draft.
To elaborate a little further on my Star opinions, he’s somebody I really don’t want to end up on the Eagles. My reasoning is not that I think he’s a bad player (he clearly isn’t) but I happen to think there are a whole bunch of better players at the top of this draft and he’ll almost certainly be gone by the pick range that I’d be comfortable drafting him.
You know, having not actually fashioned my own board, our boards are remarkably similar! I like it!
I like putting Rhodes up where you have him… do you think other teams have him that high? I only ask for value purposes…
I also think we’re on the same page re: Star (per my muddled thoughts below)… though I don’t think there are many other people on that page.
Lastly, per your board, there’s an interesting article at Eagles Rewind regarding relative value (and a nifty chart)…
http://eaglesrewind.com/2013/04/23/short-post-odds-and-ends/
Typical that the TE with the best name has the lowest projected ability. Why do the quality names never correspond to the best talent?
I like his chart there and I like his conclusion, but, having read some of his stuff before, I think he’s being hamstrung by the available scouting reports. Those grades aren’t being compiled by people using the same scale; some people are going to overlook production in favour of overwhelming upside and some are going to ignore the fact that someone like Lane Johnson has enormous potential because of his lack of experience and the fact that you can’t be sure he’ll pan out.
In short, I’m definitely with him on Cards or Jets as the ideal trade partners, though I don’t think I’d be targeting the same players as he would (as you can presumably tell from my previous attempt at a board).
Yeah, he’s definitely meta-scouting (which, to be fair, is the extent of my scouting), but it is interesting to at least attempt to quantify things. As a visual learner, I appreciate a fancy graph.
If you’re a visual learner, you should check my video of Johnathan ‘oh-how-I-love-him’ Hankins http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izFaSRoIt9Q
Methinks the extra “h” in “Johnathan” stands for “handful.”
That is a big, athletic man. I especially liked the stiff arm at 2:27… perhaps you give him the ball on third and short.
Good work on the video – the “focus” spot before each play is especially helpful, as is the lack of a dubstep soundtrack. Nicely done!
Heh the spot was because I’ve seen so many film cut-ups where you’re just expected to know who the guy is and it really annoys me.
Honestly, though, Hankins is gonna slide because of some legitimate concerns about his fitness/endurance (to put it bluntly, he’s pretty fat) but I really think that if he lands on the right team, with the right strength and conditioning program, we’ll eventually be talking about him as the best DT to come out of this draft.
I think its pretty apparent from eagles interviews and workouts and sources and what Chip wants via versatility and what we need on the dline that the eagles covet STAR much higher than you. That’s neither here nor there but if your board is your board thats fine, if its what the eagles board looks like that is different.
I agree about not needing another fletcher cox but the philly/florida connection, tough competition, and talent would be hard to pass on w Floyd. Probably also true for Richardson although I believe he may be the better talent.
I would prefer dropping to 12 — you get a lot – most likely one of dolphins 2ds and 3ds or a 2d 4th and 6th. This draft’s strength is in that second round-third round range. Need one or two more picks and can get strong players at TE, OL, S, DL, or Corner. After the 3 tackles and Jordan I dont see a must-have elite talent in this draft nor do I believe the eagles do. What we get at 9 not much different than player we get at 12. These teams will do some wacky things (Geno, Nassib, Fluker, Miliner) in the top 11 so someone (Star, Ansah, Mingo, Austin, Sheldon, Cooper) will be there at 12. Plus you can turn around and draft a stud corner and safety with our extra dolphin picks to go w the ot/og and te from our original 2 and 3d rd picks.
Eagles Board
1. Jordan
2. Fisher
3. Joeckel
4. Johnson
5. Star
6. Floyd
7. Ansah
8. Austin
9. Mingo
10. Cooper
11. Warmack
12. Richardson
I have heard the eagles have a late first round grade on Miliner and the depth at corner this yr doesn’t make him an ideal selection.
Rhodes is pretty boom or bust and I’m not sure that Hayden or Trufant aren’t better. I don’t think he is in the eagles plans. They never met with him, worked him out or interview him.
Honestly, I think the hype surrounding Star is a media construct. Obviously different people look at/for different things when they’re watching tape on a prospect, but I haven’t seen anything in Star’s tape that makes me think he’s worth a top-5 pick. To be honest, I’d be pretty surprised if any team that isn’t the Jets takes him in the top-10. He’s not in the same league as Ngata or Suh and I’d even put him a notch below where Cox was when he came out. If I had to bet money on it now, I’d predict him going to Carolina at 14.
I get what you’re saying about what Chip wants regarding versatility on the line, but I still don’t think any prospect in this draft is a better fit for what the Eagles want than Hankins. He’s bigger than Star, he’s more athletic than Star, he’s better at playing two gaps than Star (something that Chip has mentioned as a specific priority).
Read what you will into the sources and workouts and interviews, but I’m sure any mention of Star is a smokescreen.
If I’m wrong, I’ll hold my hands up and take whatever criticism people want to give, but I don’t buy that the Eagles (or any other team, for that matter) will have as much interest in Star as the media would have us believe.
EDIT: The board I posted above was sort of an amalgamation of things I think the Eagles should do and things I think they will do. I put Rhodes and Milliner because I think they’re the best two CBs for what Chip supposedly wants to do. If you prefer to substitute them for a different pair of CBs then feel free.
I want no part of Marcus Davis, and I think Chip Kelly would not want him either. Marcus does not care one bit about blocking.
By the way, if Reid was still the Eagles’ coach, who would they take?
Ogltree to play as an undersized 4-3 Defensive End
Other athletic freaks:
Stoneburner, Jake (c) Ohio State 6-3 252 4.60 TE
32 ¼ 9 ¼ [4.60 1.60 18 4.27 7.12 34 9’8]
best short shuttle of any TE
Reed, Kyler Nebraska 6-3 225 4.48 H-back
4/14/90 31 10 ¼ [4.48 1.52 19 4.01 6.62 41 10’7]
elite WR numbers in a H-back’s body, underutilized
Willson, Luke Rice 6-5 251 4.53 TE
1/15/90 [4.53 1.53 23 4.28 7.04 38 10’2]
Schraeder, Ryan Valdosta State 6-7 304 5.13 OT
[5.13 1.75 24 4.69 7.47 31 9’2]
Tretter, JC (c) Cornell 6-4 307 5.08 OG
33 ¼ 10 [5.08 1.70 29 4.69 7.48 29 9’1]
Kush, Eric California (PA) 6-4 304 5.06 C
33 ¼ 9 ½ [5.06 1.73 25 4.35 7.40 30 9’0]
Williams, Nick (c) Stamford 6-4 309 4.91 DT
34 10 ¼ [4.91 1.63 28 4.65 7.55 33 9’3]
Smith, Jared (c) New Hampshire 6-3 302 5.08 DT
33 ½ 10 ½ [5.08 1.79 28 4.39 7.20 32 9’7]
Larsen, Cody Southern Utah 6-4 302 5.10 DT
[5.10 1.70 40 4.56 7.69 28 8’6]
Replogle, Adam Indiana 6-2 299 5.08 DT
32 9 ¼ [5.08 1.77 38 4.71 7.62 31 8’10]
Minter, Zach Montana State 6-1 301 4.88 DT
[4.88 1.74 31 4.37 7.54 34 8’11]
Goodman, Malliciah Clemson 6-4 276 4.78 DE
1/4/90 36 ¼ 11 [4.78 1.65 26 4.48 7.10 32 9’7]
Edwards, Lavar LSU 6-4 277 4.80 DE
35 ½ 10 [4.80 1.64 — 4.51 7.03 33 9’11]
Taylor, Devin South Carolina 6-7 266 4.73 DE
36 10 ¼ [4.73 1.60 14 4.30 6.89 35 10’8]
Anderson, Zach Northern Michigan 6-2 269 4.68 DE
[4.68 1.59 33 4.35 7.37 38 10’0]
Davis, Troy UCF 6-2 251 4.65 OLB
[4.65 1.58 24 4.14 7.03 31 9’9]
Falemalu,Paipai Hawaii 6-2 245 4.65 OLB
[4.65 1.63 24 4.33 6.87 37 10’2]
Means, Steve Buffalo 6-4 257 4.69 OLB
[4.691.64 21 4.31 7.26 38 10’8]
If we draft a guy named Luke Wilson I might be able to trick my wife into watching, at least once.
If that’s the case, maybe we should look into drafting that linebacker Shirtless Ryangosling.
I laughed hard at this.
I’m not a huge Bill Barnwell fan, but his is a pretty good article on how difficult it is for teams to consistently draft well: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9202430/bill-barnwell-inconsistency-nfl-draft. Worth a read.
Charles Johnson sounds really intriguing. That sounds like a thick build for a receiver with that speed, kind of like Malcolm Floyd last year. If The corners are getting bigger might as well get some receiver that are as well.
If only there was a player named Torrence Small in this draft.
I would like the Eagles to use a 7th on Okoye. He seems to be a Chip prototype… athletically and work ethic wise. My worry is how do you protect him on the practice squad… a possible landing spot?
ATTN: LOS ANGELES PEOPLE
I’m going to set up camp for round one of the draft on Thursday at Public House on Vermont in Los Feliz. Would love some company so I’m not the only one shouting and throwing things when we trade up with Oakland to take Jarvis Jones.
The draft starts at 5pm (Pacific) so I’ll be there a little before to test drive what I hope is a liberal happy hour policy. Lousy website here:
http://1739publichouse.com/
That means the rest of you get a much deserved break from my idiotic rantings… you’re welcome!
I’ll be there in one of my parallel universes.
Excellent. Depending on the drink specials, I should be in that parallel universe sometime before the Jets’ second pick…
the Eagles will also get the
Chiefs #1 for an all-you-can-eat-cheeseburger deal.
Knowing the Eagles, we’d somehow get the short end of this deal.
Like, in a cheeseburger-induced coma, Reid hits his head on the side of a toilet and, a la Doc Brown, has a vision of a flex capacitor… a 4 tight end set that revolutionizes the league and leads to 5 straight Super Bowls for the Chiefs.
The difference is Reid thinks flex…
Chip Kelly knows Flux.
I would love too! Would be great meeting some other from here. Even tho i don’t post AT all i live on here. I do live in Orange County though it it is quite a ways out. Im going to do my best
Traffic from OC to L.A. can’t be THAT bad, right?
Oof. Good luck, and hope to see you there!
Happy hour includes a free pizza! Planning on making it.
What about Mike Hermann, QB from Rensselaer? He’s E.J. Manuel’s size and can run. He accounted for 78% of RPI’s total offense. He’d be worth a 7th round pick.
If the eagles seemed to go all in with Chip Kelly, bought into not any system he has, but his football mind. So they might as well go and get players that fit with Kelly’s imagination, creativity. Austin on offense and Jordan on defense seem to be the two perfect players for Kelly’s imagination. Other top rated players might make good traditional football sense – “protect the blind side of the QB” or “get a DT that can collapse the pocket up the middle.” But two top rated players also just happen to be what seem to be perfect Kelly players.
From PFT “Sources close to me tell me that the Eagles also could become interested
in trading up. Which again should cover the entire universe of
possibilities.”
‘Tis the season of misinformation.
When “sources close to me” say the Eagles “also could become interested”, that’s about as definitive as it gets.
My sources can confirm your comment..
Now that we’ve both said it, I guess there’s also a buzz in some circles…
Many people around the league hear the same buzz.
SalPal is reporting the buzz, mostly generated by Salpal, has really died down.
If I only learned one thing since SALPAL started reporting for espn,
about 90 percent of what he says is incorrect and/or never ever happens.
Jags Owner: “We need a good player, not a sexy pick”
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/04/24/jaguars-owner-we-need-a-good-player-not-a-sexy-pick/
Tommy, I just got linked this gold mine of videos
http://vimeo.com/cripes/videos/page:8/sort:date
Its a freaking gold mine of info, from Bill Warsh talking offense, to Sean Payton talking QB, to Gregg Williams talking blizt to Rod Marinelli talking D.
Darius Slay is said to have a torn Meniscus
Surprised that Ace Sanders isntt alked about as a late round option for the birds
trade down, take Tavon,Warmack,or Mingo.. unless they are sold that Ziggy or Dion will be elite. maybe trade with Detroit first.. then a 2nd trade down to the range
If we are going Oline in round 1, I really hope its Cooper…The future Jason Peters of Guards!… especially since Guard is actually a real need, not a 4th Tackle on the depth chart WANT
If we draft a tackle early, the point wouldn’t be for him to be 4th on the depth chart. He would move in as the starter almost immediately with Herremans (who has been successful as a guard) would move to guard. So in essence, you are still filling that need at guard while also providing some very much needed depth at tackle if Peters has any issues.
+1
I understand that. However I think Cooper has more upside at guard, than Fisher and Joekel have at LT..I see Lane as the comperable Tackle Talent to Cooper at Guard. If the Eagles draft Cooper, it means they got some very valuable 2nd and probably 4th or 5th round compensation for trading down…a luxury we wouldnt get with drafting Fisher, Joekel or Lane Johnson…I like Herremans against DE’s more than I do against DT’s…any way you slice it, Todd had a bad showing last year, but playing next to a completely incompetant guard made it virtually impossible to play his best football. With a good-great RG, Todd is all the RT we need…Also with Clowney and the expected early run on QB’s, you very well could find yourself in Range for Jake Mathews, who I think would be the #1 Olineman in this class by the time the draft process took shape…Defense, you need the best individual player…Offense you need 5 guys that can form a cohesive Unit, which is why I think Historically so many 4th-6th round lineman have had great careers as starting lineman in the NFL.
……………….
I also happen to think Oline is probably the position with the least amount of seperation between 1st round and 2nd round in terms of talent…So I would much prefer waiting til round 2 to get our lineman. I also dont buy the injury concern. If your Olineman can run hurdles in April, and dont miss any of these frantic high paced workout, then they are no longer any more of an injury concern any other football player….Also, what happens if Watkins can reach his round 1 potential? Cant go into the season assuming Watkins will get back on track, but because of that possibility, I would prefer not drafting an Olineman in round 1…If you draft a Lane Johnson, who I believe in, its not a lock that he would be more ready to start in september than Watkins……..I dont se ehow can be happy with a Tackle in round 1, when we could have lineman who have played both Guard and Tackle in round 2..filling our depth with versatile lineman that can play multiple positions seems like a much better way to go
…………………
an Interesting Nugget: Is Merril Reese seems boderline obssessed with Terron Armstead, stating that he keeps hearing his name alot, and some people in the novacare complex allegedly believe that he could become the best Tackle in this draft class..I also hear that many teams have issues with his back problems, but I think its just a smear campaign, because its not intel that I have heard consistently from all 32 teams..Why does what Reese says matter to me? Because Reese last year was talking about Chris Polk being drated by the Eagles…and I dont think Merril just came to that conclusion on his own watching college football. Im sure that oppinion came from what he heard in gthe novacare complex..
………..
The way people dont Ignore King after he had us taking Watkins, I dont ignore Reese…UGH, wish I could just take a qualude and sleep til the beggining of the draft. Im getting way too antsy
No Sanders Commings?