DGR – Offense vs Giants
Posted: October 30th, 2013 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 135 Comments »I’ll post defensive notes later tonight.
Quick non-DGR comment…Reuben Frank reported last night that the Eagles will likely add a CB off someone’s practice squad to fill the roster vacancy (after trading Sopoaga). Need CB depth so that’s smart.
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No points. 201 total yards. I think that says it all.
Last week was a disaster primarily due to a nightmare performance by Nick Foles. This week was more of a team effort. QBs, skill players and linemen all had a hand in this debacle. Total offensive letdown. On the bright side, it is great to see the guys working together so well.
I totally agree with Chip Kelly that Sunday’s struggles were more about execution than scheme or talent. There were some simple mistakes and some critical mistakes. When you do have the 3rd string QB in, you need the supporting cast to pick up their level of play. Help the young guy out. That didn’t happen at all. Think about it…were there any highlight plays? Did anyone make a great catch? Did the runners do anything special? Players struggled to do the average, let alone anything more.
I think Michael Vick’s early INT and Matt Barkley’s fumble both really hurt the team beyond being turnovers. The Vick INT was deflating because it sent an immediate signal that we weren’t going to see good Vick. The offense then got a spark when Barkley came in, but his fumble was crushing. A TD there cuts the score to 12-7 and gives the Eagles a ton of momentum. Instead, it felt like Lucy pulling the football out as Charlie Brown went to kick it. Foiled again.
Circumstances didn’t help. The Eagles only had one drive start beyond the 40 yards line (Eagles 41). 8 drives started at the 21 or worse. A pair of drives started inside the 10-yard line. The offense wasn’t able to move the chains and sustain drives. 5 of 11 drives were 3 plays or less. There were no explosive plays to make up for that. The Eagles only had one play of more than 20 yards (Avant – 25). Think about this for a minute. LeSean McCoy and DeSean Jackson combined for 27 touches and they had just one play that gained more than 10 yards. I thought that was literally impossible.
Sadly, I was wrong.
Poor field position + only one sustained drive + only one big play = no offensive points. Ugh.
Plays
* 2nd/10. Maehl and Casey were out far left…with Lane Johnson. Vick fired the ball to Casey, who then had Maehl and Johnson block for him on a screen. Got 11 yds. We saw the OTs lining up out wide this summer. Don’t think we’ve seen it so far this year.
* 1st/GL. Kelly decided to throw for TD late in the half. Called a simple play with only 2 men out. Ertz runs a drag from the backside. DJax runs quick play on the front side. Play action goes right and QB moves left. Receivers didn’t appear to be open. Barkley hesitated rather than just throwing the ball away. Got strip-sacked and the Giants made a great recovery on the sideline, inches from being out of bounds. Disaster.
* 4th/10. Barkley got another errant snap. Couldn’t catch it. Had to bend down and grab it. Got the ball and re-set his feet. Threw the ball quickly. Had some pressure so he couldn’t make normal reads. Actually chose the right receiver, Avant, but the pass was over his head.
* 3rd/8. Late 3rd Qtr. DJax caught a pass over the middle. Was closing in on the 1st down line and a defender came up. DJax didn’t go for the line. Instead of going upfield, he flattened his angle and ran parallel to the LOS. Failed to get a 1st down and forced the team to punt. Critical mistake. Had an easy 1st down if he just stayed upfield. Really infuriated me.
MISC
* 0-1 in the Red Zone.
* Only 6 plays of 10 yds or more. Shocking.
* 3-12 on 3rd downs.
Players
QB
VICK – Bad game. Wasn’t right physically and that affected him mentally. You could see from the first pass play of the game that Vick was shaky. Wasn’t comfortable running. So he stood in the pocket and threw a ball over the middle, hoping for a completion. I literally don’t know what Vick was thinking. Celek had given no indication of turning back to the inside. The QB cannot hope a receiver just does something. You can’t throw that ball over the middle like that and hope. Vick had Casey wide open in the flat to start the 2nd series. Decided to look downfield instead and ended up taking a sack. Called for intentional grounding on the 3rd series. Vick got pressure up the middle. Had room to run, but his hammy had just gotten re-aggravated so Vick couldn’t run. Threw the ball away, but wasn’t outside the tackle box.
6-9-31. Completed 2 passes to DeSean, 1 to Casey, 2 to Shady and 1 to Brown. Made a good throw to Ertz on 3rd/5, but the Giants LB made a good play to break it up.
BARKLEY – Another week and another chance to come off the bench. Came into the game with 2:24 left in the half. First snap was off to the left. Barkley didn’t panic. Got control of the ball, looked up and found Celek for a 9-yd gain. Hit DJax on an out route for a gain of 13. Threw that from the far hash to the sideline. Wasn’t a rocket, but showed an NFL arm. Tried to hit Shady on a wheel route. Put some air under the ball so Shady could get to it. LB hit Shady as he went for the ball so there was a flag. Had interesting play late in the half. Dropped back. Clean pocket. For some reason, drifted to his right. That gave good rush angle to DE and he got to Barkley quickly. Matt stayed focused downfield and hit Avant with a good throw. Loved the focus and poise, but needs to stay in a clean pocket. Did a poor job on 3rd down on opening drive of the 2nd half. Had Riley wide open on drag route. Didn’t see him til late and took a sack. Had at least 4 seconds to throw the ball, but never got it out.
One issue that I noticed is that Barkley’s footwork can get sloppy when he’s pressured. That led to some off-target throws. Quarterbacks must be able to throw from a variety of platforms. They can’t count on a clean pocket. You want the quarterback to use proper mechanics most of the time, but there will be occasions when he needs to be able to make good throws while off-balance or leaning in one direction or twisting to avoid rushers. This is something for Barkley to work on. He missed open receivers with erratic throws in these situations. There was pressure, but good NFL QBs know how to deal with pressure and still get the ball to their guy.
More than a few reporters asked about Barkley and the read-option. Barkley didn’t run the ball and some have speculated that Barkley wasn’t making good reads. Chip Kelly said in his PC that there was only one mistake, on a play where Barkley was running the read-option with Bryce Brown. Kelly has said a few times that just because a play looks like the read-option doesn’t mean it is. Some are a straight hand-off. Others might involve the option to throw a quick screen.
Barkley finished 17-26-158 in the air. No TDs and one INT. I thought he showed some good things. Arm was once again solid. Generally dealt with pressure well. Read his progressions. Found the open guy most of the time, which shows good field vision. Made the one critical disaster late in the 1st half when he failed to throw the ball away. My biggest complaint with Matt is typical of young QBs. Sometimes is slow to find the right guy. Other times is just slow to get the ball out. Just throwing the ball away on the sack/fumble disaster would have made a huge difference. Sometimes giving up on a play is the smart decision.
Aside from the fumble, there was only one play from Barkley that upset me. He dropped back on a 3rd/5 play. Riley Cooper ran a shallow cross and was wide open. Barkley should have hit him for an easy first down. For some reason, Barkley didn’t see him in time and the offense wasn’t able to move the chains. Gotta pull that trigger and get the ball out.
I’m no closer to knowing what to make of his NFL future. Shows some good skills, but has played almost 3 Qtrs and has yet to produce one single point. That’s not good.
RB
SHADY – Shut down by the Giants. And partially himself. 15-48 on the ground. 4-18 as a receiver. Made some poor decisions. The offensive struggles had Shady trying to hit home runs. Too often he ran into trouble when the team just needed him to get upfield and maximize his carries. That’s the heaven and hell of a runner like McCoy. You can’t totally change him. You must let him freelance. You just hope he shows good situational awareness and knows there are games when every yard is precious and moving the chains is more important than trying for big plays. Drove me nuts with run in the mid-3rd Qtr. Was 2nd/7. Took ball and headed left. Was able to turn upfield. Had room in front of him. Needed to run off Todd’s backside (was trying to block 2nd level defender). Easy 1st down. Instead, Shady stops and tries a cutback move, with defenders right in that area. Went right to them. 3rd down run got stuffed. Punt. Made good blitz pickup of Beason on 3rd/5 in the mid-2nd Qtr. Gave Vick a clean pocket.
B BROWN – Caught screen on 3rd series. Had defenders on him quickly so there was just a minimal gain. Quiet day as a runner, but did have one impressive run. Got the ball on 3rd/1. Outside zone play. Went wide and ran through arm tackle. Turned upfield and powered through 3 tacklers to get 1.5 yards. Very good effort. Finished with 3 carries for -1 yd.
TE
CELEK – Pretty good game as a blocker. Only 2-17 as a receiver. Helped to seal the right side on 3rd/1 run where Shady got a couple of yards. Good block on 3rd Qtr run to the right side where Shady went for 9 yds. Did a good job of blocking DEs on 3rd Qtr runs.
ERTZ – Had early 3rd/5 pass come his way. Wasn’t able to make that grab because the LB trailing him reached around and hit the ball. That was good defense. Barkley tried to hit him on crossing route late in the half. DL tipped the ball and Ertz wasn’t able to get it after that. Still came close, but trajectory had changed and his hands were under the ball. Would have been a gain of 15 to 20 yds. Had solid in-line block of 94 on 3rd Qtr run play. Showing some progress in that area. Did have 1 catch for 5 yds.
CASEY – Got mixed into the offense on the 2nd and 3rd series. Would line up in the backfield mostly and then release into a pass route. Lined up out wide and caught a quick screen. Got upfield for a gain of 11. It was good to see Casey mixed in more than usual.
WR
D JACKSON – Strange game. 8-63. Mostly short catches. One for 10, one for 13. Lots of screens. Did okay on those plays. Got RAC yds, but failed to break loose and jump-start the offense with a big play. Had good block of DB in early 3rd Qtr and let Shady get wide for solid run. As I covered earlier, failure to move the chains on 3rd Qtr catch and run really upset me. 1st down was right there and DeSean didn’t sell out to get it.
AVANT – Good numbers at 3-54 for the day. Had a good day as a blocker, on runs and screens. Had some very good blocks on WR screens. Caught 14-yd pass late in the half. That put the Eagles down at the 2. Caught pass over the middle on 2nd/19. Got 25 yds on the play. Made one critical mistake. Called for OPI in the mid-4th. Legit call. Used hand to push DB down the field so he could come back to the ball. That was on a 4th down and it turned a conversion into 4th/very long.
COOPER – Caught pass in the late 3rd Qtr. Circled back to get away from defenders. Ended up losing almost 2 yards on the play. This was not the game to give away yards and try for big plays. Caught another short pass. Ended 2-13. Solid as a blocker, but didn’t have any standout moments that I saw.
D JOHNSON – Caught short pass over the middle in the early 4th.
MAEHL – No passes came his way, but was effective as a blocker.
OL
* Joseph got a sack when he split Todd and Lane Johnson. Both thought other guy had him. Not sure who was at fault.
PETERS – A bad omen on Sunday happened on the 2nd play of the game. Peters pulled to the inside and went to block the MLB. Jon Beason knocked Peters back. When 240 beats 340…not a good sign. Beason then tackled Shady and only gave up a yard. A better block and Shady gets at least 5 yds. Failed to get good block on JPP on 3rd Qtr run to his side. Let JPP go inside and that limited Brown to a yard. Peters did a good job in pass pro.
MATHIS – Pulled outside to the left on 3rd Qtr run and slammed Rolle to the ground. Loved seeing that. He and Kelce doubled the NT a lot and won that battle. Mathis had his usual impressive game.
KELCE – Strange game. Had several errant snaps. Low snap to Vick in the 2nd Qtr. Bad snap on Barkley’s first play. Got beat by Jenkins with a club move late in the half, but recovered and blocked him just enough to keep Matt clean. Called for false start in the early 3rd Qtr. I didn’t really see what drew the flag. Odd call. Pulled outside left on 3rd/1 in the 3rd Qtr and blocked Beason so Brown could move the chains. Did a good job as a blocker, but the errors hurt.
HERREMANS – Got driven back by Joseph on early pass play. That led to Vick’s grounding penalty. Got pushed back by Joseph a couple of times. Mostly Todd re-set his feet and anchored after giving up the initial ground. Also understand that Todd had him 1-on-1. Kelce and Mathis were doubling the NT. Picked up DE who was looping to the inside on a stunt. Gave Barkley a clean pocket. Pretty solid, with a few sloppy plays.
JOHNSON – Kiwanuka got free from his block to directly cause the grounding penalty, but Lane had done his job early on the play. As Vick drifted deeper in the pocket, Kiwi had an easy angle to get to him. Lane had blocked based on where he thought Vick would be and not where Vick drifted to. Beaten by Tuck for TFL on 2nd Qtr run play. Had some struggles with Tuck, who is a crafty veteran. Lined up way out right on screen pass to DJax late in the half. Wasn’t able to control JPP on 3rd/2 run to the right side. Shady got tackled for a loss. Not Johnson’s best day. Good news is that Tuck wasn’t physically overwhelming him. Tuck used some good moves and tricks to beat Johnson. As Lane gets experience, he’ll handle that stuff better. Also liked that Johnson didn’t panic when beaten. Came back ready to do his job on the next play. Some guys struggle with their confidence. Not Johnson.
BARBRE – DNP
*
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Don’t forget about the O-line in the draft, Howie.
I’m probably in the minority, but I’m not real worried by the o-line. They’ve been above average in run blocking, and have struggled some in pass blocking. But it’s hard to determine just how much of that is on them, and how much is on the scheme and the QBs. We know that on some option plays, the oline is supposed to run block – they don’t know whether the QB has kept it for a (supposedly) quick throw. So those plays may look like poor pass-blocking, but it’s really on the QB to get it out quickly. In that respect, Vick is well below league average, Barkley is a rook, and Foles is wildly inconsistent. Furthermore, you have the issue of pocket awareness. As Tommy points out at least twice in the article, the QB’s movement in the pocket can turn a good block into a whiff. Once again, I rank Vick near the bottom of the league in terms of pocket awareness, Foles is about average to slightly below, and Barkley is a rook. On top of that, the three QBs all have different tendencies, and the oline hasn’t been able to get used to one QB’s tendencies.
All of which is a long-winded way of saying I don’t think the pass rush pressure is all on the oline, so I’m not nearly as down on them as many are. They’re by no means dominant, but they’re good enough, and they can probably get by with drafting and developing some projects for the next few years, with an occasional FA Band-Aid thrown in. I think, organizationally, they’ve shown a preference for FA O linemen. That might change with Kelly, but I think it’s part of the overall general plan.
i think concerns about the OL are more about the future. Peters is having a down year after a year off due to a big injury. he’s getting up there in age too.
herremans is starting to age, and mathis is also on the older side, granted he has a little more tread on the tire so to speak.
i dont think that Roots is saying that we need to pick an OL to start immediately to replace one of the guys we have now, but rather to pick a mid-round guy whom we can groom into a solid role in a few years.
i keep hearing guys say barkley has a noodle arm (who ever writes the rotoworld updates and some other media guys have said it), i dont see that at all. I think he has a better arm then kolb did. not by much tho..
yea, i have no idea what his arm strength is. he didn’t really attempt many downfield throws, but on all the throws he attempted in the game, i didn’t really see any lack of arm strength… it was more about a rookie 4th rd pick playing like.. well.. a rookie.
Kolb has a better arm. What sunk Kolb was his pocket presence.
Did note that 13 yard out immediately. That’s a throw I never see Foles try. It wasn’t that great, but at least Barkley has this bread and water play in his repertoire. Right now, it’s still not particularly strong enough. Remember, it’s about being able to do all of the basic plays a QB needs to make, and it’s also about having margins so that you can still make the easier passes when you don’t have clean pockets or on the run, etc, etc.
I thought the play at the end of the half summed up the game in a nutshell. First and goal from the 2 with at least 2 timeouts left and a minute on the clock. First – they call a quick timeout instead of burning some clock. Then on 1st down the naked bootleg call with a 3rd string QB. And Barkley goes and completes the sh&t-show by holding the ball forever and eventually losing it (instead of just throwing it away). Poor clock mgt, questionable play-call, bad decision-making, and awful execution. I think that pretty much sums up the day.
It was Reid 2.0. Maybe it’s something in the water there.
Those of us who grew up drinking Schmidt’s and Ortleib’s know that water will kill your brain cells.
Little typo I think:
5 of 11 drives were 2 plays or less.
Good stuff as always. Easily the best writer in Eagles blogdom, which is saying a lot.
I’m ready to argue Tommy is the best Eagles writer in any sphere. Seriously. There’s some skilled guys who make their living writing about the Eagles, but I can’t think of any sportswriter who combines the insight, talent, knowledge, and humor as T-Law. I keep waiting for someone to snag him away from us. Until then, here’s a toast to Iggles Blitz. We’ve got a great thing going here.
“We saw the OTs lining up out wide this summer.
Don’t think we’ve seen it so far this year.”
Didn’t we see them have the OTs out wide at some point during the Redskins game? I could be mistaken, but I thought we did see this at least once sometime this season.
I think you’re correct. It was double wide split OTs with 3 oline in the soft chewy center.
That’s what I remember.
Question…which is the bigger disappointment this season? The performance of the offense in the past two weeks, or the absence of the Helmet 2 Helmet show?
Discuss
absence of the H2H show. I expected to listen to the wonderful voice of Tommy Lawlor twice each week and instead its maybe once every blue moon
I blame Jimmy for both.
Forget this Eagles season being weird because of the playcalling/performance, it’s the lack of audio goodness multiple times a week. I hate having to think for myself.
In the paraphrased words of Chip: we need more repetitive accuracy!
If only that damn Kempski would put aside the Grey Poupon and step out of his car during lunch sometimes.
Not only that, they finally got the volume levels thing sorted out! It was going to amazing! It was going to be glorious!
Then…silence…
i get that Tommy is only doing this part time out of the goodness of his eagles loving heart, but maybe we need to find a way to get him some money out of this? like if the H2H show had a whole ton of ads, or a corporate sponsor (think ads at the beginning/end of the podcast)?
eh, i dunno. i love the stuff that Tommy gives out to us, and i wish that there was more of a way that he could be compensated for what he does. ideally, something that doesn’t involve the site requiring a paid subscription…
I agree with Bill Barnwell here:
I think that’s the biggest difference between what Kelly was able to do at Oregon and what he might need to do to succeed in the long term in Philadelphia: His offense will require a good quarterback. At Oregon, Kelly basically ran through a series of middling options at quarterback and got great work from just about everybody he tried: Dennis Dixon, Jeremiah Masoli, and Darron Thomas all had success with Kelly as relatively unheralded (or, in Dixon’s case, relatively unsuccessful) options at quarterback. Marcus Mariota was a three-star recruit coming out of Hawaii, but he was the most productive quarterback Kelly had at Oregon, and that was as an 18-year-old redshirt freshman.
At the professional level, the windows Kelly’s offense creates are smaller, and the decision-making his quarterback needs to perform has to be done faster and more reliably than the speed at which his current options operate. Foles misses too many big plays. Vick holds on to the ball too long and isn’t accurate. Barkley is a project at best. Philadelphia’s quarterback of the future — the guy who will eventually prove whether the Kelly offense can sink or swim in Philadelphia — isn’t on the roster right now.
http://www.grantland.com/
So, if they get a really good QB, the offense will be good? Wow. Groundbreaking analysis.
This team has been averaging over 400 yards/game this year, and even after the past couple of weeks it is still at 397/game. Does that mean they will average 500-600 with a good QB?
I think the flavor of the day is to take shots at Kelly because he hasn’t “paid his dues”. And as fans, we are always happy to oblige when we are unhappy with the results. What I have seen is that the team has put up points with both Vick and Foles, and moved the ball with Barkley. Even when all 3 are not perfect. I think this is a very good sign.
I do agree with the author’s assessement that our franchise QB is currently not on the roster.
Eeeehhh, as far as my tea reading goes, Vick *is* the quarterback on the roster. I don’t think Kelly ever comes here without both Vick and Shady being here, and I think many of the fans drastically underestimate to the extent that anti-Vick fan sentiment is merely indulged by the coaching staff and management.
One thing people just has to come to grips with, is that for Vick not to be the guy, there has to be an alternative. You can’t just say Barkley and Foles are better, and repeat stuff like “gets the ball out quick, and more accurate and better reader”, because that’s not true, and it’s not true for coaches, because they care about their professional reputation and want wins. Philly’s management situation is just not like the situation in Minnesota, where Rick Speilman virtually locked in Ponder as the starting QB. Most places don’t really do that, because valuable team members like Percy Harvin eventually wants out (and I suspect Jared Allen, who has commented with some acidity about Ponder needing to do better).
When people are talking about “not on the roster”, they’re talking way in advance of the draft, where you don’t know who’s even going to come out early, with only one quality upper-classman (Bridgewater) likely to come out, the others (Boyd, B. Miller) being of iffy quality. Of the sophomores, only Manziel is very likely to come out, and he’ll be drafted by some team wanting to sell jerseys. Beyond the question of whether he’ll come out, Mariota is just really overrated right now. He’s not a particularly refined passer. He merely has an NFL arm, and not something great. He also is merely a good runner, with neither the top speed of Kaepernick or RGIII or the agility of Cam Newton, Joe Webb, or Manziel. Ultimately, he’s really not even as good a prospect as either Manuel or Geno Smith. Ultimately, I think the 2014 QB draft is basically Bridgewater and nobody else of NFL starting import. Deep in backups, not really in high quality starters.
With the draft being the way it is…Let’s just assume that Mariota is better than I think he is, and doesn’t drop. How likely do any of you really think it will be that the Eagles will have the top five-ten pick it would take to grab one of the two best prospects? If you think, well, that’s not very likely, then ask yourself, how likely do you think Chip Kelly would be happy with starting a raw project, say, Braxton Miller? Or a Josh Johnson level prospect like Tajh Boyd? Wouldn’t Kelly be happier signing Tyrod Taylor than drafting either Boyd or Miller, if you thought about it?
Looking to free agency, even including the quality QBs I expect to be resigned, like Jay Cutler, is there a single starting caliber free agent, forget quality beyond that, who doesn’t have an injury history beyond Josh Freeman? A major reason Tarvaris Jackson has had less of a solid career than he has had is because he really is fragile, compared to Vick getting most of his injuries from real beatings.
I fully expect the Eagles to do their due diligence in trying to move on from Vick in the offseason. In general though, the Eagles management is going to want a *real* option. They aren’t as much for pretty boys like Kansas City or Arizona, and they think a losing product is much worse than one where the QB is viscerally hated by a segment of the population. Therefore, don’t be surprised if Vick is here next year.
That’s a whole lot of words to say “I love Mike Vick”.
Sure I like Mike Vick. I love watching him play.
I like competence at the QB position even more.
I Genuinly don’t understand how anyone enjoys watching him play….even when I was a kid playing Madden 2002 and Vick was the fast guy in the game, everyone who played as Vick would just run for 270 yards, I NEVER played that way…I. Would get a kick out of using his speed to play the right way, the way a winning QB should play…use his escabaility to buy time and find guys down field, and if I’m running a QB draw or something(rarely) I would always run out of bounds or slide…I played a video game more responsibly then Mike Vick plays QB…I didn’t want to risk losing him for my video game team, yet he NEVER did everything in his power to not risk letting down his team mates or an entire Eagles nation….it boggles my mind how people can enjoy watch him make a mockery of the QB position…plays with no Rythm, doesn’t play responsible enough on a consistent basis, makes costly ridiculous mistakes because he always tries to do too much..basically watching him play QB in a messy ROLLERCOASTER rides….he isn’t a good QB, the question in a given game won’t be will he be a good QB today, it’s simply will he make enough monster plays to overcome his short comings….and I think I have Reached my limit…
….
Yet hours ago I have to hear quotes like “the hamstring isn’t as bad as last time”….here we go again, give me a damn break. How about you sit your old ass down til ATleast the bye week, and not hold this team hostage for the next few weeks…I can’t take it!! Mike Vick just makes me want to fast forward thru the season
**shrugs**
Before he was with the Eagles, Vick, near singlehandedly, dragged low talented Atlanta teams past the first round of the playoffs. Watch some old tape, and you can see why his career numbers are low.
With the Eagles, Vick led the Eagles to a couple of the greatest games in franchise history, generating quite a few good memories.
At his best, Vick represented one way to be best at the QB position, and generally, he commands respect from opposing defenses. In fact, Vick is one of the guys, unlike Peyton or Brady, who’ve changed the way the game is played, in terms of forcing defenses to develop a theoretical line of thought specifically for QBs that could rush and pass as well as Vick could.
You can go on your periodic rants all you want, GEAGLE, but you could see it last Sunday. The defense lined up with respect to even an hobbled Vick, and they did not do so for Barkley. Football Outsiders can make all the smart remarks they’d like, but all such folks do is rely on context free statistics, because all they are really there for is to help convince gamblers to gamble. And you know? The sort of analysis where people make systemic breakdowns of what’s going on all-22 is usually absent when people talk about inaccurate, holds the ball too long, etc, etc. It’s usually all talk, with all the cleverness of sending chain emails full of lies and misleading claims. The same with talking about how every backup level QB is better than Vick (or McNabb), and then moving onto the next great hope when the current one inevitably betrays such fans. I’m fully capable of enjoying Vick and knowing him for being a flawed QB, just as I could anyone else. Nobody is flawless, but generally, all of Vick’s actual flaws has to do with his height, one way or another, in particular, throwing on the run.
People in the 2020s? They’ll be downloading old Vick games from the Cloud, likely even more than they would Brady, or um…”Matty Ice”… It’s a good show, win or lose. A mockery? well…I guess for you, it is.
I’m with you as far as enjoying watching Vick play when he is “on”. I don’t know how you can’t marvel at some of his escapes and runs, or when he throws a laser that travels 50 yards in fractions of a second.
My issue is with the inconsistency, and probably related, the durability. He’s no good to a team on the sideline, and it’s likely to only get worse as he gets older.
If, as Mr. Viking says, Kelly’s offense is predicated on a QB who can (and will) run consistently, I think that may be a fatal flaw. I just don’t think history proves that you can play for long with that style. Whether it was Randall, Steve Young, Mike Vick, or even RG3, there are too many big, fast people trying to hurt you that will eventually succeed.
I also loved watching Vick play when he was at his athletic best, both in ATL and here when he was becoming a better passer. My main beef – which is related to the inconsistency – was that the offense rarely had rhythm with Vick. This seems like a crucial ingredient in successful offensive teams. This was also a problem with McNabb, but he found a happy balance between running and passing for a stretch of years during his career (Reid was also to blame for this).
I guess this is the long way of saying that I don’t think Vick has a great feel for the game, and that’s important – especially in Kelly’s offense.
The best thing about Vick on Madden was rolling back 20 yards and to the left before throwing a perfect pass 40 yards downfield (while still moving back and to the left). Now that’s repetitive accuracy.
Vick wasn’t here though. He either renegotiated or was cut. It seems like if Kelly really did want him, he wouldn’t have risked losing him like that, no?
That was kinda my point. Had Vick already been cut, do you think Kelly comes here?
I definitely can’t prove they wouldn’t have backed down if Vick refused to negotiate. Kelly did say something along the lines of “there weren’t many other options” at the press conference of the renegotiation, but that might not be how he really feels.
Can’t build an offense around a 10-game-per-season QB.
Just can’t.
Well, again, what are the alternatives? Say the Rams get rid of Sam Bradford. Does he have a better injury history than Vick? Does Cutler? What about Peyton Manning? He hasn’t missed a game, but do you think he’d survive–at all, without a reasonably high performing line? Peyton’s dinged-up even now.
Would you rather have Josh Freeman? Or Vick plus an actual capable athletic QB behind him?
A chi lo dice….that’s a tricky one because it’s a saying. Translates to “tell me about it” even tho the words mean “who you telling”
Or, “fugedahboutit”
Mienkia those peppers…..fugedahboutit
completely agree. but, unless foles or barkley has shown you enough to think we could build an offense around them, he’s still the best option this year and possibly even next as sad as that is.
I hear what you’re saying. I want to move on from Vick just as much as all the guys calling for Foles, ect the past two years. But, I agree with you. Foles and Barkley have not shown me that they are better QBs than Vick, as flawed as he is, and I think way too many people assume it’s a foregone conclusion that Kelly will move on from Vick next year just because.
I understand. I was just pointing out that this has been a fairly successful offense for the first 6 weeks. The other point is – I just hate the whole notion of “we just need a franchise QB”. What does that mean? One of the 5 or 6 guys who have won Super Bowls and are perennial Pro-Bowlers? As TL asked earlier this week, is Matt Ryan a FQB or is it the guys around him? How about Andy Dalton? I think Kelly’s offense will work with competent play (as it already has). It won’t work with incompetent play (like they’ve gotten the past 2 weeks and vs KC). And to think, just because you draft a guy early on day 1, you can now say “Franchise QB – check” and move on is ludicrous.
My real gripe is how a group of fans (and reporters) are so ready to throw Foles away on one bad, terrible, awful game. I’m not saying he’s the answer, but a lot of people were writing articles about Vick permanently losing his starting job a few days before the Dallas game. Bill Walsh used to say that it took 30 starts before you could evaluate a QB. I think Foles has less than 10. It is too early to know one way or another on him, much less Barkley, but they should just hit the reset button and start all over again at the bottom of the learning curve? I was kind of hoping there would be some carry-over from this year.
Kelly’s system will work with a QB who can throw well and run well.
There just aren’t many QBs in North America who can do both at an NFL level.
Kelly offense, since his time at UNH, always required a QB will to run the ball more than 100 times per season.
(Forget his story about about how he turned UNH’s offense in to a passing offense with QB Ricky Santos. Santos ran the ball 350 times in 3 seasons under Kelly — about the same per game as all his Oregon QBs did.)
That’s very interesting about Santos and thank you for digging that up. We’re about to get a lot more data about how Kelly’s offense works with a traditional style quarterback. I’m hoping for the best.
Incidentally, Santos had a 40 time of 4.90, roughly the same as Barkley. He had a very low average yards/carry in his time at UNH as well, so it seems that it’s not the “threat of a big run” that made the offense work, as has been suggested about Kelly’s scheme with Vick.
Not sure how often Santos slid after his 2-3 yard gains, however. Who knows, perhaps sliding is what kept his average so low.
good analogy. I played against Santos while at U. Del, and those weren’t exactly “designed runs”. Remember, he played with the guy who set the WR record at any level (Dave Ball). As teams sold out to stop the big passes, Santos would take what they gave (a few yards at a time). Just a heady player.
There is a difference between “always required” and “always had.” I don’t think I’m off base in suggesting the sample size here is a little small for definitive conclusions. (And I know people will make them anyway.)
The offense ran fine with Foles until the game when he couldn’t complete a pass. Perhaps if he could run, it wouldn’t have mattered (a la Vick in his last 3 games), but it certainly couldn’t work without a quarterback who could do neither.
I hope it’s not too taboo to make the same post on multiple sites, but it seems appropriate here:
I know we live in a rush to judgement culture. Everybody wants to be the first to predict the future so they can say I told you so and feel smart*, and they feel no real consequences for being wrong. Some of us preach patience, but it falls on deaf ears blind eyes. Maybe they’ll listen to Jason Avant.
“I still believe in Nick,” Avant said. “One game doesn’t define you. Whether you blow it up and throw for 400 yards and five touchdowns or play badly, it’s not going to define you. It’s what you do over an extended period of time.
“That’s when you begin to learn a person’s character and what type of player they are. Then you can make an educated assessment of a player rather than taking one game and saying, ‘I knew it. He’s not all that.’
“We believe in [Foles]. We’ve been here every day with him. We’ve been in training camp with him. We were with him last year. He has the tools to be a really good player. And he’s refining those tools and doing everything he can to put himself in position to become the best player he can be. And hopefully, the best player on Sunday.”
Just thought that was a pretty cool quote by Avant that I wanted to share here.
*Note: That urge to feel smart is actually a hardwired survival mechanism. No shame in that. I saw it on tv, so it must be true.
i think that both Foles and Barkley are too inexperienced enough to be able to make the decisions that this offense requires. will getting better at the decision making side of the game overcome their physical limitations? who knows.
I wonder how much of playing the role of “Option QB” — back from the late ’60s with the Wishbone and Veer to today’s Read-Option — is about the QB’s own sense of confidence that he not only will run with the ball, but is a threat to break off long runs. The requirement of being a very good passer’s a given.
Defenses will always be happy to hit the QB a few extra times. Requirement to be a good rusher is also a given, as you well know.
The offensive line starting with Jason Peters is not very good,he is a shell of his former self,Kelce is being dominated and Herremans decline continues..Hell King Dunlop is looking good right about now
Is it bad that I was watching Rams Hawks the other night and thinking about how I wish Shady would run like Stacey? I.E take the N – S run when it is there.
The Rams OL were opening the holes for that game.
are you implying that our OL was not opening holes for Shady/Brown vs the Giants?
http://chipwagon.typepad.com/eagles/2013/10/whats-wrong-with-the-run-game-spoiler-alert-it-aint-the-scheme.html
this shows 5 different examples of where the OL opened up holes that were just fine for either back to run through. they instead bounce it out wide and take a loss or zero on the play.
of course, the OL is not without their own execution errors (see later on in that link for examples of that as well).
Every player leaves plays on the field. It’s not enough to say that there were plays to be had. What’s more important was whether if there was a consistent inability to find the hole, or whether it was just that those were just plays left on the field, just like in any other game.
In general, when people aren’t confident in the execution of other people’s plays, they tend to leave more plays on the field. Much of the game, the OL was relatively ineffective in making clean executions of blocks.
i’m… not sure i understand what you are getting at. sorry, long day over here : /
Chipwagon is great. i thin Lesean has been pressing and not trusting the scheme. same issue as last week.
Yes! I was thinking the same thing! They would put Richardson in, and he didn’t have anywhere near as much success. Stacy looked fearless just charging up the middle.
Re: McCoy and N-S Running
Tumtum remarked in a comment about how the Rams’ RB Zach Stacey ran well against the Seahawks on MNF going N-S . . . adding he’d like to see McCoy do more of that.
Does anyone want to comment on whether McCoy is simply not a N-S runner by nature, regardless of scheme?
Or does Kelly’s scheme, i.e., the QB in shotgun with a RB to his side, invites E-W running by Eagles’ backs . . . and in McCoy’s case, exaggerates his instinct to dance and move laterally?
i just posted this below in response to Tumtum:
http://chipwagon.typepad.com/eagles/2013/10/whats-wrong-with-the-run-game-spoiler-alert-it-aint-the-scheme.html
there are 5 examples of the OL opening up some decent holes that Shady/Bryce could run through. They might not get 20 yards, but as chip says “OL gets you 2, back gets you 2”, i think there was more than a good enough hole.
i dont know how good this guy’s writing is (seems pretty good to me), but the examples given with screenshots of the play developing kind of speak for themselves.
you do bring up an interesting point:
“the QB in shotgun with a RB to his side, invites E-W running by Eagles’ backs”. most of these plays are DESIGNED for the back to go laterally across the QB to get the ball at the handoff and then continue laterally to the right gap and then shoot through it. i think you might be on to something that this is exaggerating mccoy’s instincts.
it is odd, though, that he had so much success earlier in the season running what look to me to be the same exact plays and trusting the call (actually going where he’s supposed to go).
Early season behavior seems inconsistent with the past 3-4 games. Or at least confusing. Totally agree.
Regarding the screen shots, on at least one of those plays when the hole looked to exist between Kelse and Mathis, if you give it a second look, the off-side DT — whom Kelse(?) tried to cut played the block really well and is moving toward the apparent hole. If McCoy had cut it up inside, I think he’d have run smack-dab into the defender.
That aside, I think Bryce Brown would flourish — or at least do better — in an I-formation system with the QB under center. He’s so short on the experience of just running and picking holes. As instinctual as being a RB is, there’s an art to reading defenses — even at the incredible speeds with which those guys move.
absolutely right – i dont think ANY of the plays in the screenshots given would be big gaining plays. but i think there was enough of a hole in each that we could have gotten a couple of yards out of the play, or at least back to the LOS. i believe that all of the plays shown went for 0 or negative yards.
i just hate seeing so many negative plays (both in the run game and the sacks in the passing game)
So counter-instinctual, except on short yardage, for McCoy to just put his head down.
If he breaks just 2 or 3 for 15-20 yards, all the rest of his plays are forgotten.
Why aren’t we seeing even 2-3 McCoy downfield ankle-breaking specials?
good point, thats just not his game.
yeah was hoping bb could be that n-s running change of pace back — nope.
Is Polk still active on game days? I’d like to see Kelly, if McCoy and Brown aren’t hitting the holes, to have them sit out a series and give Polk a shot. If he does something with it, then leave him in for awhile.
Obviously you don’t want your best players on the bench, but it may be necessary if they’re not playing their best.
I agree with Chip’s assessment. He’s just trying to hit too many home runs, probably to compensate for the QB performances the last couple games.
Shady knows how to take what’s there and usually has good judgement about when to get what you can and when to dance. That judgement hasn’t been there in the last little bit, but I think that’s the exception rather than the new norm with him.
The most difficult part of fixing a problem is accurately identifying it. I believe that has been done, so hopefully the fix will be on full display on Sunday.
Tough call.
McCoy’s greatness comes from his stop-on-a-dime-and-find-a-new-hole ability. He’s generally not a 1-cut runner.
Will be interesting to see if whatever voodoo the Eagles come up with for McCoy, it increases his production.
Right now, I think we need to be concerned about the health and survivability of Foles and Barkley. If worst comes to worst, we may well be begging for Vince Young in a few weeks. Oakland’s DL comes after the QB, and they have a bit of talent in the backfield.
I think not doing *something* about the lack of WR talent is going to haunt us. The lack of easy throws to high YAC receivers are a big reason why our QBs are hit so often.
I think not doing *something* about the lack of WR talent is going to haunt us. The lack of easy throws to high YAC receivers are a big reason why our QBs are hit so often.
this.
i was hoping that Cooper’s size would make him a good redzone target and his blocking abilities could help him contribute consistently on the field. well, he does seem to block well, but outside of that, nothing. i’d rather see a TE take his snaps… same quality of blocking with more of a receiving threat?
What could we do about WRs?
Well, I was kind of hoping that we’d get somebody else’s problems, like Kenny Britt or sumptin’.
In that case, would it really be worth the potential headaches to upgrade a team that’s still going to be flawed and inexperienced in new schemes? I think if there was a nobrainer upgrade at any position, the eagles would always pounce.
they could have at least brought some people in but they didn’t even try which is what got me.
i dont think we should expect any changes until the offseason. (now that the trade deadline has passed, i dont think we have much of a choice, lol).
i dont know what our options will be in FA or the draft, but i’m hoping for somebody.
my ideal scenario would be that Maclin is fully healed and comes back on a 1 to 2 year deal to prove himself and we draft a guy who can come in and contribute immediately in 3-4 WR sets occasionally and gets to learn the speed of the game for a year and have us make a hard decision to bring back Maclin again or to just go forward with the new kid.
Shah8 . . .
Your Vince Young reference is a welcomed dose of irony.
He’s right there with Pat Ryan on the list of QBs who will never be invited back to Philadelphia.
On the other hand, maybe he’d do better in a Kelly offense than a WCO?
kind of off topic, but i’m digging the Disqus avatar you got setup. nice!
The compliments belong to:
1. BlindChow who designed it and offered it to me (created in a deep, dark of night).
2. Baloophi who, after spending all day Sunday enhancing his senses, came up with the idea that I needed an Avatar . . . and BlindChow answered. (A couple others made suggestions, too.)
my hats are off to the both of them!
Noticed it too…awesome! Love AC’s explanation below too 🙂
Do you think Tebow is more likely than Young? The sort of jobless QBs out there that I can think of off-hand would get destroyed here. We’d probably actually end up signing Dennis Dixon and just throw him out there.
Or, so help me God, GJ Kinne.
I’m enjoying your disaster scenarios.
The list of commenters here, and IgglesBlog, over the years who’ve begged for a BIG and TALENTED wide receiver is long and illustrious.
If we stacked $1 bills equaling the number of comments along this line, I think we’d reach beyond the moon.
1st down was right there and DeSean didn’t sell out to get it. — That’s my knock on him especially if he’s to be considered a number 1 WR. I know he’s not — but peeps are ‘OK’ with him avoiding injury and not selling out. It’s not what I’m ok with….
Attn: BlindChow, aka The Avatar Man.
You received a really nice compliment from TheRogerPodacter.
Your work is duly noticed.
God bless you for doing these offensive DGRs…you are a stronger man then me…I watched these games a few times, but iM usually fast forwarding thru most of our offensive drives and just watch the defense…
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Barkley said something the other day, that makes it not surprising to see him struggle with footwork. When asked about adjusting to the NFL game, most QBs talk about how they have to get used to smaller windows that close up quicker then they did in college…Barkley says he wasn’t phased by that and for him, he needs to get used to how fast everyone in the front 7 is..If he is still antsy because he isn’t used to the speed of the pass rushers yet, an average sized guy who is just finally getting his arm strength back after such a COSTLY injury is probably going to show some erratic footwork until he gets used to it and settles in…seems like he needs to take some big hits, get up and realize that his arm is still attached to his body…
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It’s so early, he has only been given scraps for preperation, I have no idea what to make of him yet, and it’s going to be a long time before anyone gets me to pass judgement on him,because I literally don’t even know what to say….although i can say that watching him on Sunday! at no point did his “weak arm” pop into my mind, other then this one player where he through an absolute Laser to Avant on the right side, that looked like it even caught Avant by surprise, even if he made the catch….I.didnt see Chad Pennington out there, and since the knock on him was that he was the perfect QB except the weak arm, I guess Sunday was encouraging,,,
….
Tom, I would have liked to hear your thoughts on Chip running some plays for left handed QBs with right handed Barkley and FOles instead of inverting the play to the other side? For example, Barkleys fumble in the redzone, when we asked him to roll left and throw across his body? In your oppinion was it a simple case of those plays needed to be run to the side of the field with the most space? And if so, wouldn’t it be wise to NOT ask that of young inexperienced kids? Or am I over reacting?
still didn’t throw the ball away.
Absolutely!! Putting blame on Chip doesn’t excuse Barkley..Both were at fault…
Walterfootball updates his mock every Wednesday..the flavor of the week for the eagles is:
RD1) Johnny dochebag
Rd2) Brandon Coleman Rutgers WR
Rd3) deon Buccanon Safety out of Washington state
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Thoughts?
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I literally know nothing about the Safety,,.can anyone speak on him?
I would hate Coleman in the 2nd
Agreed. He might have a good combine and his stock might rise though until then I still think he’s a 3rd round pick.
It’s so depressing to be reading comments about next years’ draft and this year is only half over. Less if you count the playoffs. PLAYOFFS?
I said the same thing almost two weeks ago. You can’t really blame people for that when we couldn’t score a TD or much less move the damn ball.
I talked draft in May. I talk draft year round.
Yup..why wouldn’t people want to talk about prospects during the college season?
3rd? He is a new Marvin McNutt, 6th round pick type right now imo.
I know of him but haven’t seen enough of him yet, but from what I read he is a fast touchdown machine with an explosive first step. The negatives I read about him are that he can lack concentration at times and drop the occasional wide open ball, or get lazy at the end of a route but that generally he had first round talent with flaws that are fixable with coaching and experience…I don’t know if he is a good second round pick or not but Walter had Allen Robinson going early 3rd down, and I would gladly take him in round two which is where I expect him to end up….
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Austin Jenkins for me would be a steal in round two
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So curious to see when and in what order Sammy, Evans and Lee end up coming off the board…
From what I read about Buccanon, he sounds like Cary Williams at safety. It doesn’t help that the only tape available on him is against Oregon so I’ll refrain from posting my opinions on him.
Lol yeah i will assume that the Oregon tape isn’t very encouraging
It’s douchebag, you douchebag.
I need some fantasy bye week help…
..
Pryor at home vs. Eagles defense that has grown for 4 straight weeks??
Or…
Nick Foles at the black hole, playing against a defense that plays and hits, HARD at home????
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Who do I start with Stafford on a bye?
When in doubt, be a homer.
Remember, they won’t have to deal with the homefield disadvantage this week.
Yeah I love that aspect of it which is pretty damn sad if you think about it…
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Had I known this would play out like it has I would have started a money pool for when will the Eagles win their first home game, and who will be the QB to take the most snaps in that game and have everyone buy blocks. LOL The eventual prize would have been lucrative considering how much we suck at our corporate hell hole..
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Right now, my guess would be Nick FOles beating the redskins on NOV 17th to snap the streak lol
Jake Locker!
Are you in a futures league . . .
you should add Johnny Cretino
Haha I wish I could start calling him that and have everyone know what I’m talking about….little idiot douche…perfect!! I just have a hard time envisioning Jason peters being happy to block for that little shit 🙂
I’ve said before that, depending on how the cards fall, he could be here next year.
He could be Fran Tarkenton II.
And Tarkenton brought lots of attitude with him from UGa.
Of course, Tarkenton was a preacher’s son. Johnny C, not so much.
I have never seen Tarketon play, but Johnny football reminds me of a young Romo combined with Favre. Maybe that is how Tarketon played
Tarkenton seldom ran, but was practically uncatchable in the backfield. He could extend a play 7-8-9 seconds until a receiver came open downfield.
A Roy:
Great clip.
HOWEVER . . .Tarkenton actually held the record for most yards rushing in a career by a QB with 3,674 (over 18 years), until Randall Cunningham broke it in his 7th season in 1992.
All but 230 of those yards by Scrambling Fran were accumulated during his first 12 seasons.
I must be remembering him in the second half of his career. Think he ended up as a Giant.
“Not so much”….might be an understatement. I can already see him pissing me off out in old city one night
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He looks like a good QB to me, but I just have images of him running around and getting destroyed by some Monster LB…When I try to envision his best case scenario “‘ceiling” I picture drew Brees running around reckless like romo…It works for Russel Wilson because he is a borderline impeccable decision maker, and I can’t see Johnny harnessing his wild cocky side enough consistently to be Russell Wilson instead of becoming TOny “FRAUDELENT fools gold” Romo!!!!
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There is so much bust potential involved with drafting the best college QBs high that it always petrifies me. We have a 3rd round sophomore and a 4th round rookie that we haven’t invested enough in developing to be able to say that they aren’t the answer…I can’t be on board with bringing more young QBs into the fold if you aren’t even going to try and bother developing the ones you just drafted in the past two years who combined have 10 games of experience…
Always go against the Eagles. Consider it a consolation prize if they do poorly.
I call it ’emotional hedge’. Pryor is your man, my friend.
Favorite quote today:
“If I start thinking long term, I may not be here long term.” – Chip Kelly
If Kelly isn’t thinking long term, he won’t be here long term. His quote seems too cute by half.
Ray Rhodes thought only about today. His teams grew worse and worse.
Is that who Kelly’s trying to emulate?
I don’t think that was his point.
He’s not gonna say he’s thinking long term in the middle of the season. (Although it worked for Shanahan last year)
I’m sure when his first season in the NFL ends, he will have a chance to think long term.
I think he’s using his usual rhetorical tricks to avoid giving up information while still providing something quotable.
I hope so. I’m definitely with AC in that the myopic approach for a coach is what you sell to the players, but should not be the whole truth.
I think it’s just an extension of his “win today” thing… It doesn’t mean he lacks plans or strategy, but it’s not going to trump his attempts to win this week. The overarching strategy will come out in how he deals with the players he has, the rate at which he introduces new things, etc. (e.g. there are certainly plays in his playbook that he’s holding back for them to be more effective when he uses them – if he was purely “win today” he’d use all his best trick plays etc. in week 1).
Besides, the question was about QB plans in the offseason, right? If he’s spending time worrying about that he’s distracted.
I think Chip is still getting a handle on being an NFL coach and how to handle the ancillary responsibilities, like saying the right things during interviews. When he was at Oregon, he was practically king of the castle; the big dude in a small town. As long as his team was winning, he could say or do most anything. Very different being in the pros, especially in Philly, where everything is under a microscope and every Sunday is a biblical judgement day. Amongst other things, he’s going to have to learn how to talk to the press.
“Let me ask you a serious question. When are you going to stop asking me the same exact question?”
I’m thinking the CB spoken of who might be poached off another team’s Practice Squad is Khalid Wooten.
Chip Kelly is pretty much the running oriented version of Andy Reid.
The Eagles excuse for losing this week…the Sixers won.
Beating the 2 time champs — great way to start the season for a young team.
Not when the goal is to lose 70+. lol
I was talking about the Sixers, the discussion about Chip’s long term plans is somewhere else.
I kid, I kid.
Hey Anders, this one’s for you:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/10/31/earl-thomas-sets-sights-on-defensive-player-of-the-year-award/
why do you want to hurt so many people?
Earl Thomas is having a great year, sure, but that does not change my earlier comments about Earl Thomas was grosly overrated the other years?
Every player can improve and Earl Thomas playing much better this year than he has ever done. This is the first year imo where Thomas is living up to his draft position.
You know what’s a constructive use of time? Lamenting non-stop about a draft decision made by Joe Banner and Andy Reid almost 4 years ago regarding a player whose position isn’t terribly valuable.
Looks like Peters is slowly declining. He’s not the top tackle in the NFL anymore but still in top 5. Thank god we have Lane as his future replacement. However, Herremans has clearly lost a step and we should be looking for his replacement asap. Shady had some bad reads with the holes vs the Giants, kept trying to take it outside when the holes were there for him in the inside. Bryce Brown also having same problems. If we can get the running game straightened out it will help the passing game.
Wouldn’t mind seeing Polk taking a few more snaps… He might not hit home runs but he’ll hit the holes. It’s so hard to tell on just a few carries a game but I’ve not been impressed by Brown this year.