Dion Jordan
Posted: January 16th, 2014 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 139 Comments »The offseason means lots of crazy rumors. So let’s talk about an interesting one.
Here is what Dolphins beat writer Armando Salguero posted on Twitter.
I’m told 1 thing Tom Gamble would’ve recommended if he interviewed for Dolphins GM was switch back to 3-4. Thinks Dion Jordan 3-4 stud.
To piggyback on previous Dion Jordan/Gamble tweet, Eagles have No. 22 in 1st rd. Wouldn’t surprise me if they try to trade that for Jordan.
Jordan played for Chip Kelly and Gamble loves him. Jordan in Miami was Jeff Ireland’s pick not new GM’s.
Would the Dolphins really give up on Jordan after just one season? Should the Eagles be interested?
Jeff Ireland is out as GM. That is the key to all of this. He’s the guy who traded up to get Dion Jordan. I thought that was a strange move at the time since Miami is a 4-3 team and I saw Jordan as a LB, not a pure DE. I listed him in my draft rankings as an OLB.
We have no idea what coach Joe Philbin or DC Kevin Coyle thought of the Jordan pick. If Ireland pushed him on them, they may be willing to cut him loose. If they were also on board with the pick, they will be more inclined to keep Jordan.
The Dolphins don’t have a new GM yet so nothing is going to happen until that issue is resolved. We have no idea if the new guy was high on Jordan last April or more lukewarm on him. Also, we don’t know how the new GM will see the status of the team. If an aggressive guy takes over and sees the Dolphins as just a couple of players away from contention, he may be more willing to make the deal and get the extra pick. Miami must fix their OL and their should be some good quality OL to be had.
The Eagles could make an offer of Brandon Graham and the #22 pick. Graham would give the Dolphins a good backup DE and it would enhance his value since he’d be back in the 4-3. Miami has a good young DE in Olivier Vernon and a good older DE in Cam Wake (or Derek Wake as he was known to us Penn State fans). Graham would replace Jordan in the 3-man rotation.
There is lots of logic to this trade scenario. But you just wonder if the Dolphins would be willing to let Jordan go so quickly. The guy has special potential. Do you bail on that after just one year? Of course, I thought the special potential was more in the 3-4.
If the Dolphins are willing to let him go, should the Eagles be concerned? Caveat emptor? If this was anyone other than Jordan, yes. The reason that I give Jordan a pass is that Chip Kelly coached the guy for 4 years at Oregon. He knows if Jordan is a good person, hard worker and that kind of stuff. If Kelly is okay with him, I’m on board.
I would be thrilled if the Eagles could deal #22 and Graham (or something like that) to get Jordan. I think he would be a terrific addition to the defense. He’s the kind of special athlete this defense needs. You can’t expect huge results right away since he’d be new to the attack, but he would be a key contributor.
While this is a fun rumor and does make some actual sense, I don’t see it as likely. I just don’t think a team is going to move on from a talent like Jordan after one season.
The best hope is that the new GM has more of a 4-3 background and doesn’t see Jordan as an ideal fit. It would also help if the new GM saw the AFC East as a division for the taking.
“The Pats are declining. The Jets are treading water. The Bills still need more talent. If Miami is aggressive this offseason, they could win the division next year. DE is already a strength for the Dolphins. Why not use one of those resources to fix the OL?”
Keep your fingers crossed, but don’t expect this to happen.
_
How does Jordan compare to Barr this year? Barr may go around the same area as Jordan did but are their skill sets similar? Is one better in an area than another?
Barr has a good frame for a WR too. Who can catch better?
Jordan is better in space. I also think he’s got better body control.
Barr is very good, but I’d put him a notch below.
What do you think about Kony Ealy? Are the Aldon Smith comparisons warranted, or is it just a tenuous connection based on position and alma mater?
If a 3-4 team drafts Ealy, I’d rather see him play DE than OLB…
Barr is more your prototypical almost exclusively pass rushing ROLB, while Dion is the hybrid dropping LOLB.
I’m in the process of ordering my custom Dion Jordon jersey.
Will he get #95?
Kendricks has that locked down. He wore #96 at Oregon, I say he dukes it out with Bennie Logan’s beard for the right to it
Since Chung will be gone, maybe we can list him as a safety and give him 23. That would be kinda cool.
Kendricks might be upset..
Overthecap.com says Miami face 10M in dead money if they trade him. Would they really go for that?
Addendum: that’s 10M 2014, with an additional 6M rolled into 2015, if I’m reading it right. they’d have to really hate him to cut into the cap that much.
The cap ramifications are the real stumbling block to something like this. More likely they’ll give him another year and see what he can do. If they don’t like what they see they trade him with less of a cap hit. Although his lack of production would also decrease his value.
not true,
Dion Jordan’s dead money is 16 mill this year for negative 12 mill in cap space.
If he is cut/traded this year, there is no dead money next year.
I’m just going by what overthecap says.
that is what overthecap says.
Missed this as I’ve been away from the pc… Yes and no… I think we’ve both misread it. his cap number for next year is 16M, but if you go on the calculator for the dolphins and trade him, it becomes 10M for 2014. I assumed that meant the other 6 gets pushed into 2015, but it doesn’t look like that’s the case. So in a trade I think his cap hit is 10M.
http://overthecap.com/calculator/?Team=Dolphins
Obviously they would have to weigh in the financial side of it. I don’t know how tight they are against the Cap.
Could the Eagles make a deal with the Dolphins where they would pay Jordan what the Dolphins owe him? If the Eagles really wanted him that badly, I’d assume they would be willing to pick up the tab for him. I don’t know if there’s any NFL rule that forces the team that traded a player to still pay his salary, but let me know if there is. It would make sense for the Eagles to offer to alleviate the Dolphins of that financial burden and just assume the obligation of paying him themselves.
Nah, you can’t do that in the NFL.
/me raises my hand…
not that I believe us to be so worthy of real luck.
I think Dion Jordan can be our Bruce Irvin, and mabe perhaps better. Major potential upgrade on Barwin, while Barwin stays and teaches the pup.
Wow, finally one of those “WE SHOULD TRADE GRAHAM AND A FIRST FOR [recognizable name]” I could actually really get behind. Of course that means it’ll never happen, but what can you do?
Think Chip could feed Bill Lazor a few lines before he heads down there? “This Jordan kid looks like he’d really struggle against our O in practice – I know just the guy we can load him off on…”
Every time I see Dion Jordan I think I am looking at Plaxico Burress. Seriously. 22+ seems ridiculously high to me.
Speaking of top 5 picks last year, I just saw that the Chiefs GM publicly said he wanted Eric Fisher to get bigger and stronger. Sort of a no brainer, but strange he would call him out like that. Curious if you have watched enough of Fisher to compare him to Johnson, Tommy? Its a pretty apples to apples comparison. Would love to know who took the edge in year one (my gut feeling is Lane).
Didn’t watch much Fisher. Want to do that when things quiet down in the offseason. Fun to compare him to Lane.
Joeckel too, and maybe even the rookie linemen who were drafted later like Chance Warmack, Kyle Long, Justin Pugh, Larry Warford, Jordan Mills, etc. I’m a big Lane fan (although I wanted Warmack at draft time), so I’m curious to see how he compares with the rest of the rookie OL group.
My immediate reaction is that i’m not trading a first round pick, but we do have a late pick. I haven’t really gotten into the draft prospects yet, but i would just hate missing out on picking in the first, even at #22. I could go for Graham and a 2nd for Jordan or Graham and a 1st for Jordan and a 2nd(maybe 3rd), but when it comes to first round draft picks, I want us to come out of that trade the clear winner and NEVER giving up a future 1st.
Going off of his draft projections rather than his first year’s production, I’d say Jordan is significantly better than any OLB prospect we could feasibly get at pick 22. And because that’s where I’m thinking I’d like to see our first round pick invested anyway, I’d be all for it.
Imagine for a moment that we went back in time to draft day last year and I said “We can have Lane Johnson AND Dion Jordan, for two firsts and Brandon Graham.” You would tell me “no”?
2012 draft was historically weak … 2013 historically strong. argument could be made that dion would go much closer to 10 in this draft
Also dion hasn’t shown much pass rushing ability in college .. it was more of a projection … Barr has shown more on the field in terms of edge rusher and thats what we need … Mack too.
I love Dion but I’m not convinced by any stretch that he has double digit sack potential or can set the edge…
Don’t forget that he wasn’t asked to rush the passer as much in college, since he was needed in coverage and could shut down a variety of threats. He was quick of the snap with incredible bend to get around tackles on the corner, and was able to reliably make plays against the run by igniting of the snap to flatten the line. Kid also had some nice moves to get inside to the passer.
We all know this is a rumor. And likely won’t amount to anything more than an interesting postseason discussion. But it is really hard to argue against it from the Eagles perspective.
Not arguing with your evaluation of Barr nor Mack. Every mock draft I’ve looked at has both of those guys going long before our selection. So again, did Dion project worse than the guys we actually have a reasonable expectation of drafting?
I posted this in the previous comments section:
“I understand that people loved Dion Jordan last year and that he was drafted onto a team that has him slightly out of position as a 4-3 DE, but are we so sure that his complete lack of production was due to him being misused rather than him being overrated last year? Is that risk really worth a first round pick? Keep in mind, we are also talking about a guy who TOTALED 14.5 sacks in four years at Oregon.
To me, I’d be extremely curious about what Jordan could do in our defense as an OLB, but there is no way I would be trading a first round pick for him after the season he had, regardless of whether or not he was misused, and even if we got him cheap, based on his limited production as an elite pass rusher even in college, I would be skeptical of relying on him to be the elite pass rusher our defense needs until he is able to go out and prove it. His skills seem to me that they would be better suited for Barwin’s role right now.
Also, keep in mind that IF it is true that he is playing out of position and that’s the sole reason for his lack of production, he will continue to produce poorly in Miami and we can get him cheap the following year. I’d rather wait a year and get him without risking a first round pick than have a repeat the Trent Richardson deal.”
Part of the issue with Trent was the whole midseason trade aspect. Few people look good after one of those.
Trent’s completely lost his explosion. Maybe he’s nicked up and he just needs some time off to heal. Maybe he needs to dial it back in the weight room. Maybe he’s just hit the RB cliff sooner than most. It will be interesting to see if he can’t have a big bounceback year in 14.
As Indy I would of taken the Richardson deal 100x out of 100x over this fictional and fun scenario.
? You would give up a first round pick for 2.9 yards per carry and 3 TDs in 14 games? Really? The guy got effectively benched by the end of the season
Or am I misreading your response? Are you saying you’d prefer doing the Colts deal than the Eagles-Miami deal?
In hindsight it’s pretty clear Indy got robbed, but at the time Richardson was a #3 pick whose lack of production had been blamed on injury and playing for the Browns.
The Browns part in particular would be pretty compelling if you wanted to talk yourself into it.
I guess that’s my point. There are reasons to be interested in Jordan, but being drafted 3 is not sufficient reason. You do have to consider the possibility that he is a bust even in the right system. His poor season last year should impact his value.
Didn’t even realize as I typed it how exactly that would describe the hypothetical trade where Jordan turns out to be a bust, wow haha
You’re exactly right, you’d have to wonder why Miami would part with the guy so soon if they did.
The main reason would be the new GM molding the team. He gets an extra first or second rounder to take “his” guys and unloads a player that doesn’t fit the system they run with limited production. There are several GM’s who would make that choice, whether it’s correct or not.
Not disagreeing with the rest of your post, but just pointing out that, given some of Chip and Billy’s statements in the past, it’s possible that “elite pass rusher” is not necessarily what they want from the OLB position. Some of their comments lead me to believe that they want the deception and flexibility of having either OLB be the pass rusher, depending on circumstances. That flexibility and deception seem to tie in very well with Chip’s offensive philosophy.
Whether I read too much into a few statements remains to be seen, but just wanted to point out that we don’t know yet what the vision for the defense really is. Elite pass rusher at OLB seems like the common sense need for this defense, but Chip’s all about challenging common sense when has a reason to.
Not that I think it’s likely, due to the cap ramifications (on Miami’s end), but it seems much more likely that it would be Vinny Curry who’d be the current player going the other way in any deal. He’s the guy who’s got a boat load of potential as a 4-3 DE, but who is really mis-used here as 2-gap lineman. If I were Miami, I’d far prefer Curry to Graham, who’d have to bulk up again to be ready to play as 4-3 DE. Curry’s first step makes him very disruptive when he’s allowed to 1-gap.
Didn’t even think about Curry. He could be trade material. Not so sure I’d deal him and 22 straight up for Jordan. That’s a steep price.
What about Curry, a 2nd and a case of PBR?
You can’t just randomly throw in a case of PBR when we are discussing serious scenarios here… A) We would never part with a case of this elixir, it has too much inherent value. B) It simply skews the deal way too much, and we would be greatly overpaying for Jordan. No sane GM does that deal.
Yeah. Now if the PBR were coming back to us…
All kidding aside, I think if a deal gets made, it’ll get made on draft day when Roseman can eval Jordan vs. who’s currently available. Too much uncertainty with Jordan’s performance.
Half case of PBR then, having halved the value of the PBR, whilst simultaneously getting blitzed enough to foolishly part with the rest.
If Miami was adamant in preferring Curry to Graham (which I would), then I’d have to think real hard about it. I’d much rather, as an Eagles fan, trade Graham because he’s past the developmental stage and still hasn’t become a starter. Curry still has promise though. He just needs to bulk up a little more and work on technique a little. His ceiling is Justin Smith (another 3-4 DE, roughly 285 lbs). We don’t know if he’ll get there though. Obviously we can’t get everything we want, but that would be ideal. If I was sold on Dion Jordan as a starting OLB, I’d trade either of them.
Hard to believe a team would give up on a player just one year into their career, especially when that players was the #3 overall pick.
But just as an intellectual exercise, and if they were looking to trade, I think the market would be limited considering only 3-4 teams would be interested and the Dolphins will be reluctant to trade inside the conference. I would think it would be a draft day trade because the Eagles (or another team) will be holding most of cards. It may only take a 2nd rounder + a traditional 4-3 DE to get the job done. I doubt there are many teams out there that would be willing to give up a 1st round draft pick
I don’t think a Jordan trade really means that the team is giving up on the player. Who is “the team”?
The new GM will decide personnel matters. It will now be his job on the line. Why should he feel any allegiance at all to the former GM’s picks? The last thing the Dolphins, and especially a new GM, should be looking for is continuity. They fired Jeff Ireland for a reason.
Yeah, if they really are as dysfunctional as some claim, they could have extra motivation to do this. “Ireland was so bad, our new GM got rid of his 1st round pick after one year…”
Still don’t think they do it, given the cap ramifications.
Because no one operates in a vacuum. The Dolphins traded up to get Jordan. It may have been Ireland’s brain child but it still makes the ENTIRE organization look pretty bad if they trade him after one season. I would imagine the new GM would need ownership approval to make the trade because of the PR hit the Dolphins would take if he is traded.
Brandon Graham and a 2nd for Dion Jordan. I was just thinking about this earlier .. we really need an outside pass rusher but the two best ones will be long gone by our pick. The value at that pick will be at the Safety position. Such a trade will fill both holes. Of course this is all very hypothetical and almost entirely unlikely but that’s the fun of the off season.
It’s not nice of you to tease GEAGLE like this, Tommy.
Re: Philbin on Jordan Right After the 2013 Draft
Here’s a link to a April 26, 2013 post-draft interview of Miami coach Joe Philbin, principally about Dion Jordan.
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-04-26/sports/sfl-joe-philbin-transcript-20130425_1_jonathan-martin-roster-things
Philbin’s key quote: “I was all for it [the trade]. We [Ireland and I] talked about it. We discussed it. . . . ”
Regardless, Philbin doesn’t especially gush about the move or Jordan. But that could just be how he is.
Interesting he’d make the DeMarcus Ware comparison. He was a 3-4 stud but not nearly as impactful when moved to the 4-3.
Yes! This is a Great trade for both sides. Brandon Graham is only 25 and a perfect fit for what they want to do and a proven commodity with upside. There isn’t a player we could get with the 22nd pick that has the unique blend of size, athleticism, character, experience and endurance to play as many snaps as a Chip Kelly Offense demands of its Defense. This deal is good for both the Birds and the Fins, as well as good for Brandon and Dion.
Dion Jordon is has the same size as Trent Murphy, only with more speed, bend, wingspan and proficiency in coverage. We want an impact player on defense – but we are being shortsided if we only view that in terms of pass-rush. Above all we want an impact player with the versatility to impact games no matter what matchup is on the field.
Tommy, how does Jordan project as a pass rusher from OLB? I remember him being great in coverage and an overall athlete but he only had 14 sacks at Oregon. Does he have the potential to be a force off the edge or is he more of a jack of all trades, Barwin role?
Great first step and better closing speed. Only question is technique and bulk (for the run).
And those can both be worked on. He’s had a year of NFL strength training so he’s probably some bulk already.
Yeah, you pull the trigger if you believe in Jordan’s desire to succeed because then he’ll do the rest of what it takes to be an impact player.
I remember an interview Chip gave about Jordan sometime last year where he talked about him being a very special and dedicated person. And no one would know that better than his old coach.
I proposed this trade two months ago, assuming that Ireland would be gone, lets hope it goes down.
I’d trade Vinny + #22 all day long. Steep price, but worth it for a true playmaker. I don’t think MIA bites at Graham+ #22 considering the cap implications, trade up, etc.
Yeah… I’d fear we’d have to sweeten the pot for the Dolphins to sell this to their hard-of-hearing fanbase.
As in, #22, Brandon Graham, and a 5th or something.
From their perspective, they’d essentially be dropping 19 spots in the first round (last year’s #2) for #22 and Graham… that’s probably not enough for them.
Curry in the mix? He could be a bigger star in the 4-3
I’d say Graham is more likely, only because of their current positions with us. If you traded Curry + 22, you now have a rotational gap to fill with those snaps he got this year (maybe draft a NT and have Logan play DE, or Kruger develops into that). Then you’d have Dion and (likely) still Cole sharing some snaps at that “leo” position. Graham would be buried and useless to us.
Saving Curry keeps our DL depth available and frees up those snaps for Dion (he’d replace Cole, and Cole would replace the ’13 Graham in the new lineup)
Also, if we give up a player AND a 1st rd pick, I’d also ask for a late round pick in return.
I know very little about the NFL. But I figure there’s as much chance of the Dolphins trading Jordan as Barr slipping out of the top dozen picks.
Not sure there’s anything else to talk about here, but speculating on seemingly inplausible things has to be considered a bit silly, no?
Welcome to the off-season. Where the stories aren’t plausible and the points don’t matter.
only if Arod was 10 years younger since he’s not doing anything this year, maybe he’d want to put a chin strap…that’s about the same odds as Jordan coming to the Eagles…
Remember also, Chip Kelly said in a press conference that he had the player ranked where they came off the board. Meaning he had Dion at 3.
The other big question in all of this, and since I didn’t watch a single Miami game, how did Dion do?
1 sack, not a DE + shoulder injury.
If he can get 11-5 out of Matt Cassell at QB, I say the Pats aren’t in decline until Belicheck decides to move on.
But don’t tell Miami I said that.
That is definitely too good to be true. I don’t want to give myself false hopes like I did with Boldin back in the days.
The 10 million + cap hit being bandied about is true, but slanted. That hit is accelerated true, but you must also account for our first round pick. Cap money that would otherwise be dedicated is now replaced with a reasonable rookie contract. So I think the deal, financially, isn’t so far apart.
I don’t think it works that way from Miami’s perspective. At least for 2014, they get an additional $10 million cap hit for trading Jordan (mostly the acceleration of his signing bonus all into this year) + the cap cost to sign whoever they would draft at #22. It may be a savings long-term if the #22 guy is cheaper than Jordan in subsequent years, but that’s down the road.
I think a new GM is doing exactly that – planning over the next couple years. They don’t expect to turn around an organization overnight, but to steadily right the ship over time. Don’t forget, keeping him means they take a 5 million dollar cap hit next year and perpetuate the same drama- only now the previous GMs mistake becomes the new GMs problem.
Or…the new GM can take a 5 million dollar hit, blame it on the last guy, and get a young proven (and versatile) DE in Graham that fits better into their defensive rotation, and get a top rookie prospect tied into an affordable rookie contract -saving you from having to pay as much for that position for the next 3-5 years. Clean house and start fresh with a proven young player who helps you right away and two first round draft picks. What would Hinkie do?
Re: How Rare Would a Dion Jordan Trade Be?
Unprecedented.
Since the first common in 1967, not a single Top-5 selection has ever been traded after one season. None.
The closest would be the first-overall pick in 1973 draft, DE John Matuzak by the Houston Oilers. Six games into Matuzak’s second season, Oilers head coach Sid Gilman — at the behest of defensive coordinator Bum Phillips — found a willing trade partner in Kansas City.
The Chiefs swapped the very stout DT Curley Culp for Matuzak (who had signed a futures contract with the WFL). Once Culp reached Houston, Bum Phillips immediately implemented his 1-gap 3-4 defense, with Culp on the nose. The NFL was never the same.
Only two Top-5 picks have been traded after their second season.
The first time came when the St. Louis Cardinals traded their 1972 4th-overall pick WR Ahmad Rashad (f/k/a Bobby Moore) from Oregon after the ’73 season to Buffalo for former rookie of the year QB Dennis Shaw — a product of San Diego State. The Cardinals were entering the second year of the Don Coryell era — Shaw’s college coach at SDS — and were not happy with the performance of 1973 starting QB Jim Hart. But Hart raised his game, while Shaw’s sagged. The Cards went 10-4, reached the playoffs for the first time in 27 years . . . YES, 27 years!!! . . . and Hart became a Pro Bowl QB.
The other trade came after the ’77 season. The Chargers gave up (again) the 4th overall pick, RB Joe Washington from Oklahoma, for the rights to the Colts All Pro RB from Penn State, Lydell Mitchell. Washington may best be remembered for his first start with the Colts on Monday Night Football against the Patriots in a downpour. Washington rushed the ball 16 times for 53 yards, threw a HB-option for a 54-yard TD, caught 2 passes for 41 and a TD, and
returned a KO 90 yards for the winning TD.
(I’ve excluded draft-day deals or holdouts, like Elway in ’83, QB Jim Everett in ’87, and OLB Cornelius Bennett in ’87.)
Trent Richardson was traded in September this year. He was a 2012 3rd overall draft pick.
D3FB:
Thank you for the addition.
But let me clarify my point: “No Top-5 pick has ever been traded in the OFF-SEASON after just 1 year.”
Ok I figured there was something I was missing. I was a bit confused as to how you would miss such a recent example. That makes more sense.
D3FB:
I’m a knucklehead for not listing Richardson, regardless. He’s the closest any Top-5 pick has come to being traded in his first profession off-season.
By the way, your comment yesterday on the kid from WCU — primo stuff.
Thanks. Another local kid to keep an eye on as a camp body type is Zach Zulli. He’s from Collegeville, PA. Played in my high school conference at Perkiomen Valley. Went off to Shippensburg and has led that high flying offense to big numbers. He was the QB that led the offense to the type of numbers that got their OC hired at Oklahoma State. Quick release, good decision maker, decent wheels, ok arm, but slight frame.
You’ve seen ZZ up close. He’s he compare size-wise to Johnny Pigskin . . . best guestimate?
It’s been a few years but I’m a shade over six foot and he was pretty close in height. Weight wise he’s put on some since high school where he probably played closer to 170, I’d guess he is probably around the 200lbs mark. He had and still has a pretty lean frame but its wiry and he’ll probably only ever be able to get up around 210ish. One aspect people seriously underestimate with college football players is how much weight can fluctuate within a season. Players typically show up in August right where you want them to be, then proceed to lose between 5-15lbs over the course of camp, which is then slowly put back on over the course of the season.
Speed wise he always gave us fits in HS as they were an early adopter of the read option spread attack. He probably ran and still runs in the mid 4.7s.
Here’s a highlight film of his junior year just to give you a taste. (I had completely forgotten about him until I was watching game film of Bloomsburg DE/TE/former basketball player Larry Webster)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBzNdDzY_QM
totally forgot about that. wonder if cle just ate all of that dead money.
To be clear:
No Top-5 pick has ever been traded in the OFF-SEASON after his rookie year.
Trent Richardson played 2 games with Cleveland before getting traded.
Buccs never won a game where the temp was below 40 degrees at kickoff…until…
I get your point that GMs in the past haven’t made a trade like this one, but I disagree with the false conclusion that they can’t – or even that they shouldn’t.
I can agree with your facts, but conclude that the main reason that GMs haven’t traded top draft picks during their first 3 years is because the GMs professional reputation is tied with the success of the pick. Which isn’t the case in this instance with Miami.
BC:
I don’t think I took a position, one way or the other, on whether such a trade *should* be made. I definitely didn’t mean to do so.
I meant only to point out that, in the 47 years since the common draft began, no top-5 pick has ever been traded after his rookie season (but before the start of year 2).
My point was just an historical one — with no judgmental freight intended. I regret for any confusion.
So, Miami jumps ahead of us to steal Dion Jordan from us, when in reality they should have done what I thought they were doing… namely, steal Lane Johnson. Then, in an effort to right the ship they trade the talented but ill fitting Dion Jordan to us to add a crucial element to our defense.
Conclusion: Won’t happen
Real life reasoning: Two wrongs don’t make a right (and/or) Don’t cut off your nose to spite your face. No GM wants to be the guy who cut the kid who became a perennial all pro. If you trade Dion Jordan, you might end up being that guy.
I wonder if we could get Tom Gamble to take the job, trade us Dion for Patrick Chung, then resign and return to the Eagles.
I can’t believe Mr. Lurie hasn’t offered you a job yet.
I think he has trouble looking me in the eye as a result of the in-home LASIK. I tried to show him where my eyes are now located, but he still seemed weird about it.
That explains it. Oh well, we do enjoy having you here on the blog. BTW cool shades!
I laughed way too hard at this
Dion and their first for Patrick. He’s worth it for all the info he could feed them on the Pats.
Sort of like how we secretly have Joe Banner working for us now. In fact, it’s so secret, even he doesn’t know he is.
The Man-sneerian Candidate?
Assuming the Dolphins were even interested, the Eagles would have to decide whether Jordan is better than this year’s group of OLBs: Barr, Mack, Van Noy, etc. Jordan does have freakish athleticism, but he’s never at any point shown that he is a freakish football player. I look at him as a faster, younger Connor Barwin. Not bad, but doesn’t blow me away. It’s nice that he is very good in coverage (even as a nickel corner at Oregon occasionally), but he must be able to win one-on-one battles consistently. I don’t know if he can do that. I am worried that he struggled to get on the field last year. I wouldn’t be mad if the Eagles did give up their pick to get him because he is very comparable to this year’s rookie class of OLBs. But I’m not super confident in him. He’s a huge gamble at the very least.
The question isn’t simply if he is better (he is), but is he better than someone we could expect to get at 22. Mack, Barr, Van Noy, Mosely, Murphy will all likely be gone before 22. It is the possibility of one of them slipping to us vs the certainty of Jordon in Midnight Green. Every new player is a gamble. Dion Jordon is less of a gamble with more upside for what Kelly hopes our defense to become.
Mack and Barr will be gone before #22, but I believe Van Noy and Murphy will still be on the board – I think they’re end of 1st round / top of 2nd round guys. In fact, both might be good targets if we trade back from #22 into the 28 – 42 range.
Mosely – I believe – is more an MLB type (vs. pass rush, OLB).
I think you could ask if you’d prefer Dion Jordan to Barr or Mack, since similar (if not more) resources would be required to acquire them. I’d probably go with Jordan because Chip Kelly knows what he’s getting but that’s just me.
Neither are worth a first round pick.
Just a quick thought about trading back from #22 and possible compensation– say we did trade the #22 pick to a team which is either still playing this weekend, or a different team which would be starting on round 2 of draft selections.
Question: what is a “fair” trade assessment in moving back from #22
Would it be possible to drop from 22 to 30, pick up #30, and their 2nd round pick this year (while keeping ours intact)? Or, would this be a case where #1’s are exchanged this year, in addition to their 1st round pick next year, plus additional compensation this year (at least their 4th round pick in addition to ideas above)?
I just don’t know, but having an additional 2nd round pick this year, plus another form of compensation for round 2 or above next year sure sounds like fun to me!
On a side note– I still cringe while thinking of the 2010 draft. 1-1st, 2-2nds, 2-3rds, 3-4ths……… man, this sucks!
Van Noy will likely be around. Murphy just isn’t a great 34 OLB to me. He’s tall, physical, and has a great motor. He’s not a super athlete, and he doesn’t have a dynamic first step. Personally I think he profiles much better as a 43 DE. Hell I’ve seen people who want him to put on 20lbs and compare him to Justin Smith.
A first round pick AND Graham? No way! 3rd and Graham or just a #2, I’d take all day, but not a #1!
a straight up 2 that is later in that round….no way would any sane person from the Dolphins would do that deal….If we could get jordan that cheap…..i would do it in a cocaine heart beat…..
dude, who gives a F*** about Brandon Graham.
here’s the thing. #22 plus a productive player in a 4-3 system implies that Jordan is still #3 pick in the draft value to the Dolphins, and he’s not. I think if I were the Dolphins I’d take #22 straight, almost certainly can pick up a player that will have more impact (player that fits better) than Dion that way.
No it doesn’t, not considering they traded up for him and there are significant cap implications.
How significant? 1st round picks aren’t that prohibitive. And yes trading up for a player that doesn’t fit is humiliating, but that was a now defunct GM’s stupidity. Jordan isn’t worth a #3 pick to them anymore, so we’d be dumb to pay them that price.
Seriously? Its not enough to land the ideal impact player for a position of need, you want him at a discount?
Dion has limited value for them. Graham has limited value for us. If he were available to be drafted by us with the 22nd pick this year, we would in a heartbeat. If Graham (or Curry) is the price to get him for the 22nd pick, what are we haggling over. Take the win.
We are getting value. We should offer value. Fair value. The best thing would be for both teams to feel like they won. Would be great to develop a new trading relationship with Miami – both teams could benefit greatly.
I think everyone is getting a bit carried away with how valuable Dion is. Dion went at the top of a pretty weak draft (on the top end). He has potential, that’s it. Very much not a sure thing. 1 year in, he’s only added more doubts to his resume. The biggest being durability. He simply isn’t that big of an asset to the dolphins. They can get impact with #22. We can get impact with Dion. Neither is a sure thing. Sounds fair to me. If that trade doesn’t happen, that’s fine, we have lots of other things we can address with #22 and Dolphins are stuck, oh well.
I’ve seen anywhere from $10mm to $16mm.
jeez, didn’t know you could blow that much cap on a rookie contract anymore. Must have been a massive signing bonus that distributes through the cap of following years.
i still think dion jordan can be a special players… in a 3-4… dolphins are a 4-3.. so nobody is degrading dion here…
He could be worth a #3 to us still, as a fit in our system, just not the Dolphins. Wouldn’t be very wise to overpay on our part.
well u wont get a special player that was just taken at #3 by under payig for him.. lol.. its gotta be fair.
id do it. graham is out of place here, we def think he gets traded this year.
Another thing worth noting is that I think Chip Kelly models his defense largely as if he was game planning against his own offense. If he had to take on himself in a game, he’d hae to deal with a versatile group of offensive players that would move so fast he couldn’t make substitutions. His defensive players need to be versatile and the defense needs to be able to function without substitutions if necessary. For that reason, I can understand why a player like Dion Jordan would appeal to him. He can be a 3-4 DE, 4-3 DE, 3-4 OLB, 4-3 OLB, or nickel cornerback. Chip could switch from odd fronts to even fronts, and even add a nickel corner, on the fly without having to substitute. If he had to face his clone, a versatile player like Jordan (assuming he does pan out, and I’ve stated my doubts) in theory would be a great piece to add.
Hey what do you think of the eagles signing michael johnson to play OLB… hes kind of a dion jordan type.. real long and tall.. good pass rusher..
vinny curry, brandon graham and bryce brown could all get dealt this offseason… could get some nice value for curry…
would you trade Graham, Curry, and Brown for Jordan?
no. id trade them all separate.
Re: PAGING D3FB . . . Paging D3FB
Bloomsburg DE Larry Webster? What’s your take? Size, speed, explosion, projection?
The last time a Bloomburg player projected into the NFL draft, it was 2006 and his name was Jahri Evans. The Eagles swapped 4th Rd picks with the Saints so the Birds could trade up to the top of the round to select Max Jean-Gilles.
The Saints patiently waited and drafted Evans with the Eagles choice. Ugh.
So . . . all you know, think you know, and project to know on Webster. Please.
As a Bloomsburg alum, I can tell you that I don’t remember hearing much positive talk about him. Either he is overhyped, or he wasn’t at Bloomsburg 15 years ago.
He got in some trouble but it sounds like it was just knucklehead booze and weed stuff and nothing too malicious.
I haven’t heard anything about BU football since I was a student, I was just making a joke. Thanks for the actual worthwhile info. I’ll be rooting for the kid.
Long road to the payoff but worth it. Kudos.
His dad won a ring playing DL for the Ravens in 01. He measured in at the Shrine Bowl this week at 6’5 and three quarters On film you can see he’s tall and athletic. Only played two years of college football after switching over from basketball. He’s incredibly raw. Wins by overwhelming his opponents with his size and speed (remember this is D2 so he’s a big ass DE at that level). I think not having played much college football his instincts are pretty average but that can come with experience. Has ok get off but his 2 point stance is too high and can get some more explosion with some work there. At the moment I think he’s a bit gangly to be an OLB and like him more as a 43 end, although it’s not like he couldn’t play standing up, but I haven’t seen him drop at all. Personally I think he’s a very end of the draft or UDFA kind of guy who you P-squad, ir-redshirt, or 53rd man innactive for a year and hope that you can get him stronger and more experienced. Some like him a little more than me but I think he’s an ok project type.
At the Shrine Bowl this week word is alot of teams are going to have him work out as a TE because of his basketball background. He was PSAC East defensive player of the year in BB. The draftniks down there this week seem to think he probably has the tools but is gonna have to be tucked away in a back drawer til he has more experience and weight room time.
Here’s somebody who specializes in small school guys take from early this year:
http://nfldraftdiamonds.com/diamond-in-the-rough-de-larry-webster-bloomsburg/
And here is the film of him vs. Zulli that is a good matchup, and also the only available film from 2013.
http://draftbreakdown.com/video/larry-webster-vs-shippensburg-2013/
D3FB:
You’re a fine writer . . . and a very good scout. Thank you for taking the time. Very much appreciated.
dion jordan paired with connor barwin would be very fun to watch… and if they sign someone like michael johnson or brian orakpo along with a S, then we are riding the hype train all the way into the new season.. lol..
The fact that we are hearing about this before it happens make me think there is almost certainly nothing to it. When is the last time there was a conversation about a trade and then that trade actually happened? The Eagles don’t work that way.
I know……but deep down inside we’re hoping it does.
Yeah, me too.
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/red_zone/Chip-Kellys-top-15-quotes-in-his-first-year-as-Eagles-head-coach.html
Must read IMO.
The best part about Chip’s pressers is if he gets annoyed at a reporter he still totally disses them but does it in a humorous way so no one gets mad.
I didn’t like Dion in last years draft. I was actually super stoked the dolphins traded up for him instead of Lane. I wanted Lane.
After one very uninspiring rookie season. Still no interest.
Off topic, but is it still too early for me to apply for the Cleveland Browns HC position?
I’m sure Banner wants to steal anything/everything from Philly. So no…its not too late yet.
Guy who can’t play the run with little to no pass rush lifetime pass rush production, and a bum shoulder….no thanks. I don’t see him as a true replacement to Cole and he certainly isn’t replacing Barwin’s ability to hold the edge. Teams will stack a te over him and attack all day.
The reason why he went a “fit” for the 4-3 was because he couldn’t play the run. That inability kept him from playing early in the season. I remember fins analysts on Sirius talking about how disappoint it was to see their #3 pick playing so little because of a deficiency. I think he has a fit as a down and distance specialist in the league, but not a staple of your defense. I’d rather take my shot with #22. I would give up the second, but not the first
Frankly, I thought Jordan was overrated last year, and he’s certainly overrated now. He played at 225 lbs in college, bulked up to 248 for the Combine but couldn’t lift, and didn’t test as well as Barwin, nor was he as good a pass rusher as Barwin in college (who played DE as a senior after converting from TE).
Jordan 6’6 248 4.54 1.61 4.35 7.02 32 10’2
Barwin 6’3 256 4.54 1.55 21 4.18 6.87 40 10’8
Note the lack of leg explosion at his relatively light weight, not a good thing for a pass rusher.
Jordan’s last 8 games of the season 11-5, with 1 sack off the bench when presumably he was 100% (if he wasn’t, he may be damaged goods).
At Miami, they didn’t try him at LB, he couldn’t beat out Phlip Wheeler?
Point is he may be a talented player, but he’s not Von Miller, heck, he may not even be Barwin (he’ll be better in coverage, but is he physical enough to hold the edge against the run?). His best position is SOLB in the 3-4 because there’s no evidence that he’s an elite pass rusher and is more valuable playing in space.
Graham, Curry and a 3rd rd pick.