The Jimmy Rumor Cont’d

Posted: March 2nd, 2014 | Author: | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 96 Comments »

Last night’s post about the DeSean Jackson trade rumor turned into a lengthy discussion. I’m putting this post up so you can continue it if you so desire. The longer a discussion gets, the more complicated it is to follow.

A few follow-up points.

* The argument for trading DeSean doesn’t pass judgment on him from a morals standpoint. No one is saying he’s a bad guy. The theory is that the Eagles may be tired of the drama that he brings with him. Drama doesn’t make you a bad guy. But it doesn’t mean that you’re a good long term fit somewhere.

* If the rumor is true, this is more than just Chip Kelly. Jeffrey Lurie, Howie Roseman and some of the assistants may not be DeSean’s biggest fans. “MAY” is the key word there. I don’t know this to be a fact. It is speculation. Clearly if the Eagles keep DeSean around, the organization is okay with him.

* Some of you wonder about trading DeSean because he’s such a special talent. Would it be wise to do that? This is where the discussion gets complicated. Jackson is arguably the fastest player in the league. He can be a major playmaker. At the same time, the guy has 32 TD catches in 6 years. Jackson’s speed is special. His potential is special. His production isn’t. Calvin Johnson has played one more year than DeSean and he’s got 66 TD catches. That’s special production. Pierre Garcon has been in the league the same time as DeSean and he’s got 25 TD catches.

All that said, there is no doubt that just by stepping on the field, DeSean impacts a game. His speed scares defenses.

The question then becomes how you quantify that into a measurable. The Eagles played without DeSean for a while in 2012 and did okay. The Eagles scored 33, 23, 13 and 20 points without him, but with Nick Foles at QB. DeSean is a weapon, but the offense can be productive without him. It is less scary for sure, but still can be productive.

DeSean is not so special that you can’t trade him. He’s just not. But I sure wouldn’t do it lightly. He is a unique talent and you don’t let go of those players unless the circumstances are right.

* I’ll put up a non-DeSean post later today.

_


  • eagleyankfan

    T-Law — you nailed this one the head. Kudos.

  • RobNE

    Bama says in his article that Jackson had his best season in 2013 and from an X’s and O’s standpoint trading Jackson doesn’t make a lot of sense. So then why are we talking about this?? Because sometimes he argues with his position coach and the management “may” be tired of what exactly?

    It is a lot more logical that Foles’ low cap number lets them pay the WR’s this year without having to ask Jackson to restructure.

    Of course all but like 10 people in the league “could” be traded. So what?

    I mean, this is just making up rumors. Which I don’t like because Jackson played really hard last year. Bama should go stir the pot for some other team. Where is the analysis about how he is so overpaid for his position and production and how we would replace that for 2014?

    This all just irritates me. I’m going to get our new puppy in a bit and get in a better mood. The offseason is too long and it was bad enough chasing the ghosts last year (Kelly’s offense won’t work), I’m not playing anymore on this subject.

    • Mark Saltveit

      The career year is exactly why you would trade him. There’s a good chance, at age 29, that he has peaked. Buy low, sell high.

      • Jernst

        This makes sense if DeSean truly is not in the plans over the next 3 years. If the team truly wants to move on from him, doesn’t think he’ll be productive for 3 more years, or thinks he’ll be more of a detriment/distraction, then, yea…buy low sell high. But, if you think he can be a productive #1 WR for 3 more years (not an outlandish assumption) then why trade away such a good asset for a crap shoot at a good replacement (a draft pick) that could just as easily be a bust.

        By the same theory, without any qualifications, why not trade McCoy right now after his break out year. Sell high and maximize the return of draft picks when you trade him. Of course, you wouldn’t even dream of trading McCoy though, because he’s a great weapon and will likely remain so over the next 3 years.

        These aren’t stocks. You don’t gain anything by simply maximizing their trade in value. The point of having a game breaking talent is to use him to win games not to trade him for the highest pick when you can. You trade players who are no longer scheme fits, no longer are affordable, are imminently in decline or who you anticipate leaving within the next year during free agency anyways without compensation.

        Jackson fits none of those molds. He’s our clear number 1 WR. He’s signed long term. He’s still a game breaking talent that doesn’t appear to be slowing down any and in fact appears to be more dialed in than ever. There’s no cap concerns at this time. He still helps the offense immensely. It’s reasonable to assume that his skills will not erode precipitously over the next 12 months. And, most importantly there’s no one that’s signed long term that is an obvious replacement for his production.

  • Cafone

    Kevin Curtis, Reggie Brown, Donte Stallworth, Greg Lewis, Todd Pinkston, Freddie Mitchell, James Thrash, Charles Johnson, Torrence Small, Jeff Graham, Irving Fryer.

    Other than TO, that is the list of wide receivers that started for the Philadelphia Eagles in the ten years before DeSean Jackson got here.

    I don’t think Jackson is perfect nor do I think he is the best receiver in the NFL. But people who think he can be replaced must be out of their gourds.

    At least most of you admit he’s special. But if it is apparently so easy to replace a special wide receiver, why did we have so much trouble replacing crappy wide receivers with decent ones for 10 years? Is this a new thing in the NFL where you just pick up quality starting wide receivers in the draft or off the waiver wire as easy as asking?

    • GermanEagle

      Word is the bird.

    • Weapon Y

      Nailed it dude. There are maybe eight receivers in the NFL who are better than DeSean Jackson. Yet people think somehow you can just draft a guy or sign an obscure free agent and get the same production. They’re downright delusional.

  • A Roy

    Stop The Insanity!
    There is no one on the roster you couldn’t build a case for trading. Has no one ever argued with their boss? The more this discussion goes on, the more it sounds like we don’t want a black rapper on the team because he doesn’t know his place. Have we learned nothing in the 40 years since Dick Allen?
    Cease.
    Desist.

  • GermanEagle

    * I’ll put up a non-DeSean post later today.

    Thanks.

    • Anthony Hart

      No way Jimmy posts that without having sources telling him it’s possible. I’ve been reading JImmy’s work for years and he’s not the Florio type who will just make up BS for clicks, he posted that for a reason. You can hate the idea all you want but I don’t think it’s fair to discount it.

  • zbone95

    Once d-jaxs speed goes away, he really has no tools to make him unique. Guys like Anquan Boldin last a long time because of their great hands and physicality. If the circumstances are right, they should trade him. Not saying they should, but if there is a can’t pass up opportunity they should strongly consider it.

    • Jernst

      getting rid of Desean before he turns 30 is probably a good move. Desean minus his speed will not be effective. The moment teams stop game planning around his speed with safety help, I think you pull the trigger and hope a dumb team like the Redskins ponies up for past production. But he’s 27 and will be 28 when the season starts. Next year would still probably be a year too early, but would at least be more reasonable. Trading DeSean in the off season where he goes from 29-30 yr of age would be ideal for me. That would give the stud WR we draft this year 2 years to acclimate into the starting role.

      • Neil

        Except every other team is aware of this too. That’s why next year would probably be the absolute latest the eagles could get good value, and still that might be too late.

        • Jernst

          Never say never in a league that involves the Redskins. There’s always a team that thinks they are one piece away. You’re right that his return via trade will go down every year, but a 29 y/o who let’s say is coming off of three straight 1,300+ yard performances will be in a lot higher demand than you think, even if all us arm chair GMs know that his speed will decline in the near future.

          At any rate, I’d prefer to keep his game breaking speed as a part of our potent offense through the next 2 years as I expect the Birds to contend over the near term future. I absolutely would not get rid of him this year with no clear cut replacement available. The goal is to improve. Maclin(coming off an ACL)/Cooper is doubtful to be an improvement on DeSean/Cooper.

          • Neil

            I don’t want to rely on another team being the fool. That’s not good business sense. 29 is old for a player who relies on speed. I have no problem with keeping him, but to think there’s someone who’s going to pay the same price for him at 29 and 27 doesn’t make sense. If you’re fine with keeping him and receiving less value in a trade later, I can understand that.

            The pick we get could go to improve anything though. I don’t think Maclin/Cooper would be a downgrade, but it would leave us open to catastrophy if Maclin gets hurt again. But the pick we acquire could go to another WR or the defense. It might not be the best decision for 2014, but it could be the best decision for 2015 and after.

          • Jernst

            Read what I said above…his return via trade will undoubtedly go down, but it will not plummet if he’s traded after his age 28 season as opposed to his age 26 season. Feel free to disagree with that sentiment, but at least respond to what I actually said. No where did I claim that someone would give the exact same value for him at 29 as they would at 27. I just don’t think the difference is so big that you get rid of him while he’s still the most explosive player on the offense and there’s no clear cut person to take his place.

          • Neil

            “Never say never in a league that involves the Redskins.”

            I read this as implying you think some dumb team will pony up the same value for a player 1 or 2 years older than now. I don’t think I was unreasonable.

            Jackson’s undersized and there’s nothing special about him besides his speed. Galloway put up impressive numbers, but I’m not sure he was doing it based on speed in his mid thirties. Even if he was, that’s the exception. Most players lose a step around thirty. Jackson has absolutely nothing to fall back on when his speed declines. He will go from interesting talent/defense stretcher to undersized, otherwise unremarkable receiver. I have to believe Jackson’s value would plummet from 28 on precipitously because teams would anticipate his decline in performance based on the way most fast players (think CBs) tend to burn out at that age. They would anticipate him being what he is right now for probably no more than three more seasons if we traded him today.

          • Jernst

            Again, if you read my above post you’ll see that I agree with you completely regarding DeSean without his special speed. In fact, I said, “getting rid of Desean before he turns 30 is probably a good move. Desean minus his speed will not be effective.”

            Where we disagree is on one simple point, that those facts make it a good idea to trade him for a mid to late first rounder this year. He’s in his prime and has multiple good years and multiple years of dangerous top end speed left.

            If he puts up 1,300 yards and 8-12 TDs in each of the next two years and he doesn’t appear to have noticably lost a step at 29 yrs of age (I think that’s a reasonable assumption) and we at that point decide to trade him, I believe that some team would be willing to give us a first round or high second round pick for him.

            If you disagree…fine…we can agree to disagree on that point. I just think it’s silly to trade away a dangerous WR in his prime because eventually (years from now) he will lose his speed.

            Eventually, LeSean McCoy will lose his speed and cutting ability too. And, RBs have a lot shorter half life than WRs. If we traded McCoy now we could get quite a ransom for him and save quite a bit of cap space. But, if we enjoyed his prime years of being a top RB for the next 3 years or so and then tried to trade him no one would give us the same bounty of picks that we’d get now. So, by the same logic shouldn’t we just trade McCoy now?

            Overall, I agree with the concept that one should get rid of a declining player one year too soon rather than one year too late. However, I don’t agree that you should get rid of an ascending player 3-4 years too soon because, if you wait till 1 year too soon, everyone else won’t give you the same amount of picks.

          • Neil

            “If he puts up 1,300 yards and 8-12 TDs in each of the next two years and he doesn’t appear to have noticably lost a step at 29 yrs of age (I think that’s a reasonable assumption) and we at that point decide to trade him, I believe that some team would be willing to give us a first round or high second round pick for him.”

            That’s a lot of assumptions, but even if they held true, yeah, I believe there’s no way we would get near a first for him. By the time he’s 31 in March, I anticipate him being a role player, backup or else out of the league. That’s four years from now. If we keep him for another two, a late second seems extremely optimistic. I don’t think a GM could responsibly anticipate more than 1 season of the Desean of now if we traded him at 29. You might get more than 1, but it’s impossible to predict, and losing your legs can happen in a flash.

          • Jernst

            Assuming that DeSean can duplicate his past performance in this offense for another 2 years doesn’t seem unreasonable for an assumption. And assuming that the fastest player in the league still looks fast at 29 years of age is probably something I’d be willing to bet heavily on. But, to each his own.

          • Neil

            Well, injuries. I don’t think he’s going to be the fastest player in the league anymore at 29 even if he doesn’t suffer any injuries, but he will probably still be fast enough to matter for another season or maybe two.

          • Jernst

            Well of course injuries change everything. If he accidentally strangles himself to death wrapping diamonds ’round his neck in his next rap video we’re all shit outa luck. But, injuries can happen to any player at any time. You can’t decide to trade a healthy player because he MIGHT get injured some time in the future.

            But, if you want to add assumptions to my position…assuming he stays healthy for 2 years, it’s reasonable to assume that he will continue to produce at similar levels for the next 2 years. And, I think it’s reasonable to expect a WR to not fall off a cliff speed-wise at 29 y/o like RB sometimes do.

          • Neil

            Sure. But he also might get distracted, or Kelly decides Maclin and Cooper and two TEs deserve more playing time. Or something I’m not even thinking of. If he gets the same playing time, doesn’t get injured, remains happy with his contract, yeah, I think your assumption about his performance is reasonable. But now I’m adding more assumptions.

          • Jernst

            For reference sake…Joey Galloway, a WR who relied on blazing speed,
            was 29 years old in 2000 when the Cowboys gave up 2 first round picks
            for him. The three years prior to that trade he put up (1997-1999)
            1049, 1047 and 335 yards. After leaving Dallas he went to Tampa and
            cracked 1000 yards in three straight seasons, his age 34-36 yr seasons.

            In no way do I believe we’d ever get 2 first
            round picks for Jackson in 2 years, but you’re acting like we’ll barely
            be able to squeeze out a 3rd round pick in 2016 for him if he continues
            with his current level of production is patently absurd.

    • GermanEagle

      Desean caught every ball thrown his way last season. So I’m not buying into this ‘he’s a one trick (speedy) pony’ yet.

      • Neil

        OK, so he has good hands. He runs pretty good routes. Let’s say in four years he’s still fast enough to play outside, but no way is he going to stretch the field still. I think a good comparison would be Avant. Slightly less reliable hands, worse routes, better speed, similar agility. Even smaller. He could probably be an OK 2 WR but would definitely be someone you could upgrade on. All of his RAC ability is derived from his special speed. You take that away and suddenly he’s just an undersized receiver.

        The eagles shouldn’t pull the trigger for less than a 1 right now. I think I’d take it though for a player who may be special in one (fleeting, shortlived) facet, good in most others but flawed in some others. Mainly size, cutting ability and being a possible distraction, albeit mainly to himself.

        This would be a move for the future, though, no two ways about it.

        • Jernst

          Did you just say that DeSean Jackson has “similar agility” to Jason Avant? I see the problem now…you’re not sure who DeSean Jackson is, are you?

          • Neil

            Number 13, right?

          • Jernst

            haha

  • Neil

    It’s interesting how riled up people get over this. Jimmy just wrote about a possibility. If you think his idea is stupid, fine, but why get so emotionally charged over it? I think we can all agree that Desean can be a headache. He’s shown that his effort has an off switch. If someone offered you a pick around, say, 20-25, why wouldn’t you consider it? There’re plenty of similar players you could get around there this year. Maybe not as special in one facet as Desean is, but more well rounded so of similar value.

    Sure, the draft pick is not guaranteed, but Desean has only about 3 years of elite speed left by my estimation and is getting paid a boatload.

    • Cafone

      There are plenty of similar players around 20-25? If there was any player in the draft guaranteed to deliver the same kind of production as DeSean Jackson he’d be gone long before 20-25.

      A team can always get lucky. We got Jackson in the 2nd round. But anyone who thinks that getting a player of Jackson’s quality in the latter half of the first round is some kind of lock, or even likely, would be advised to take another look at the list of Eagles first round draft picks over the last few decades. Going by that list, I’d say the chances of finding a player of equal value would be around 1 in 20.

      • Neil

        Cooks is a similar player and is projected to go in that range or a little later. You can’t bet on one guy, but thankfully there are plenty to choose from.

        Using your logic, we should just trade all our draft picks for proven veterans. 1 in 20, huh? If you’re convinced those are the odds, I understand your position.

        • Cafone

          Yes, I would trade our first round pick for a proven veteran around DeSean Jackson’s age that was in the top ten at his position. Wouldn’t you?

          (except maybe OG)

          • Neil

            Depends. Is his game built on speed? If so, no.

            But I don’t think Desean is top ten at his position, either. He’s a great player but has too many flaws to be considered so loftily.

          • Jernst

            My god, he’s not a 30 y/o RB with a ton of miles, he’s a 26 y/o WR in his prime…how slow do you anticipate him getting over the next 2 years?

          • Neil

            He’s going to be 28 this season.

          • Jernst

            my bad … My god, he’s not a 30 y/o RB with a ton of miles, he’s a 27 y/o WR in his prime…how slow do you anticipate him getting over the next 2 years?

          • Neil

            I think by 30 everyone can agree that his speed is not special anymore. There’s nothing really compelling about that prediction though besides that that’s when I see most players start to lose speed. Thing for Desean is he has no speed to lose.

          • Jernst

            So would most GMs. The reason they don’t is because teams aren’t stupid enough to get rid of 26 y.o. pro bowlers for 1st round picks in the 20-25 range of the round.

      • Jernst

        I have no idea why people who have watched such bad WRs for so long are able to so severely underestimate a WR that puts up 1300 yards and 9 TDs and scares the bejesus out of every defensive coordinator we face.

        Every draft its the same thing…all these weekend GMs come out and claim we should get rid of all of our best players because it would be so “easy” to just replace them with the picks we get in return for trading them away.

        Thank god these people are only allowed to post online and don’t actually have say in what the Eagles will do come draft weekend.

    • Insomniac

      I may or may not be wrong since I didn’t watch these players as often as our Eagles. Steve Smith, Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, and Joey Galloway didn’t really lose a step until they were 32. I’d say that’s pretty good.

      • Neil

        Yeah, Asomugha might be coloring my perceptions here.

        • Insomniac

          I heard eating lunch in your car everyday takes years off of your football life. Sports science at it’s finest.

          • Buge Halls

            Not bonding with and getting along with your teammates and staying aloof from them certainly is detrimental to your career! How well would you work out at your job if you never socialized whit anyone you work with?

  • Weapon Y

    Andy and Marty killed his production up through 2012 with stupid and predictable play calling. There’s a reason why DeSeans best year was with Chip Kelly as head coach. I think Tommy is looking at the wrong stat to measure special in touchdowns. DeSeans production isn’t as a red zone receiver, but a guy who will move the chains down the field consistenly. He is a special talent (top-10 in yards, come on man) in that regard. Think of him like a starting pitcher in baseball who gets you to just before the end where closers (Ertz, Celek, Cooper, Shady) finish the drive. Last year will be the norm if the Eagles don’t stupidly trade by far their best receiver.

  • Patrick

    I just can’t get behind trading your best players away, thats not how you become the best team in the league.

  • Telmert

    Jimmy covered the overall WR spending in his article, but did not touch on the particulars of DeSean’s salary. His cap hit for 2014 will be $12,75m (according to overtheap.com). That’s an increase of $3.75m over last year. And $3m more than any other player on the team, including Shady. He’ll have the #5 cap hit in the league among WRs this season. This is the first year they can trade him without taking a cap hit – they would actually recover $6.5m.

    Last year – his career year – he was 19th in catches, 9th in yards, 14th in TDs, 13th in YAC.

    He’s going into his 7th year in the league, will turn 28 during the season, weighs 175 lbs, and has had two concussions.

    I think the Eagles would be nuts not to evaluate whether they can get value for him. If things break right they could win the Super Bowl, but the reality is that they’re looking to build the team up to be a consistent top contender. Basically, the rest of Jackson’s contract is not guaranteed. Do we think that Jackson will be OK with that?

    Guys get older, contracts get bigger. You have to move on *before* the decline. Otherwise you end up with Rollins-Utley-Howard and for $46m/year 73 wins. Jeremiah Trotter was 25 when they let him go. We were all outraged but it turned out to be the right move.

    • Cafone

      I disagree with the idea of sacrificing now for the building of a consistent top contender. That’s loser talk, banner-speak.

      Running backs don’t usually last very long and LeSean McCoy is entering his sixth season. Maybe his loads were pretty light during the Andy Reid years, but how long is he going to last with Chip Kelly rushing him 300 times a year? The time to win is now. The Eagles need to take advantage of their LeSean McCoy window.

      • Neil

        I think you have to weigh the sacrifice with the benefit. We’re not tanking like the Sixers. If you get a WR or a defensive player to help the team out and kind of offset the loss of Desean in the near future, but you get a similar quality player for many more years after Desean would have lost effectiveness, it makes sense.

        We definitely shouldn’t pull the trigger if we think any less will happen.

      • Telmert

        IMO, managing your team around a window = loser talk. The Reuben Amaro method. If I have a trade opportunity for Jackson, and the return I get plus what I get for the extra cap money (free agent) makes me a better team today, and a better team in the future, I move him.

        • ICDogg

          And I would agree with that, if you somehow put together a trade like that, but I’m not seeing how that’s going to work.

    • Jernst

      In what universe was getting rid of Trotter the right move. Ineffective MLB play plagued this team until he came back 2 years later and made the pro-bowl while leading our defense to the Super Bowl. Just because he was misused in DC and then tore his ACL, doesn’t mean that the Eagles wouldn’t have been much better off keeping Trotter than going with Levon Kirkland, Barry Gardner and/or Mark Simoneou

  • Cafone

    How about this? We wait until we have someone on the roster who is better than DeSean Jackson, then we trade him. Then it won’t be like Dawkins where we could admit he was past his prime but sure missed him the following year when a replacement of similar quality didn’t magically appear in his place.

    • Neil

      You’re probably looking at a second or a third in a year or two and not a first. His value is only going down.

      • Jernst

        That’s fine. The object of having great players isn’t to get rid of them for the highest draft picks possible, it’s to play them and win games with them. Jackson gives the eagles a better chance at this time to succeed over the difference between a 1st round this year and a 2nd rounder 2 years from now.

  • Cliff

    To me, trading DJax just because his value is high now is analogous to South American soccer teams selling their best players to Europe when they develop. It’s a “smart” move, but doesn’t make your team any better on the field.

  • Cafone

    Players in the NFL younger than DeSean Jackson that lead him in career receiving yardage: 0

  • Cafone

    Perhaps the Eagles’ signing of career-backup, injury replacement Riley Cooper to a fairly lucrative long term deal could indicate their appreciation of the difficulty in finding quality wide receivers more than it indicates that they are ready to cast off the best one they have.

  • ACViking

    Re: D-Jax, Cooper & Foles — before/after the Bye

    In the “for what it’s worth column,” here’s how D-Jax and Coopoer did in games started and finished by Nick Foles (i.e., complete games), before and after the Bye Week.
    _____________

    In Foles’s 4 starts before the Bye Week (Wk 12):

    * D-Jax had 19 rec for 376 yds and 4 TDs
    Avg: 4.75 receptions per game, 19.7 ypr, and 1 TD per game

    * Cooper had 15 rec for 400 yds and 6 TDs
    Avg: 3.75 rec/game, 26.6 ypr, and 1.25 TDs per game
    _____________

    After the Bye, in Foles’s final 7 starts (and finishes) including the playoffs:

    * D-Jax had 27 rec for 400 yds and 2 TDs
    Avg: 3.85 rec/game, 14.8 ypr, and .25 TDs per game

    * Cooper had 22 rec for 311 yds and 2 TDs
    Avg: 2.2 rec/game, 14.1 ypr, and 1.6 TDs per game
    _____________

    No doubt there are lots of reasons for the clear drop in production by both Jackson and Cooper after the Bye Week.

    Ertz’s increased involvement and the increased use of Celek may be a couple.

    But, regardless, after the Bye Week, the passing game was not generating the same kind of Big Plays.
    _____________

    What does all this mean for D-Jax . . . .

    I’ll leave that to host T-Lawlor.

    • shah8

      Oh, that was clear…

      I’m too lazy to check right now, but split the bye week from week 12 to after the Minn game and the three games after.

      The difference was that coaching cracked down on the lofted passes. Defensive outfits were beginning to anticipate it, like Rashean Mathis in Detroit, and the interception potential was going up. Foles, in Chicago and Dallas, did not do any lofted balls or punt passes like the sideline pass to Desean @ GB(I believe). However, a Foles that doesn’t do any lofted balls, is a Foles that’s not passing that aggressively downfield outside of the numbers (or very far even inside the numbers), where DJax can really do his damage. Of course when down by a lot, the jump balls happened in the Saints playoff game, and that’s how we got the late lead.

      This was also true of Cooper, but Foles was a lot more likely to find him sneaking around in the end zone after holding the ball. If I remember right, the later TD passes to Cooper were all when Foles either held the ball or rolled to his right outside.

      Foles gotta make deep passes that hit players in some sort of reasonably stride. Wilson throws lots of high arc deep balls too, but the ball is a lot more typically behind the defense and the receiver only has to be slowing down to catch it.

      • ACViking

        “Oh, that was clear…”

        And that means what, exactly?

        • shah8

          Not meant in any sarcastic sense, meant confidence in what I said next. Sorry.

          • ACViking

            S8:

            Actually I thought the (less than meta-data) stats I posted support a running critique you’ve had on Foles.

          • shah8

            I have lots of critiques on Foles running, you’ll have to tell me which one! ?:~)

            In fact, I was working on a new one recently, but hypothetical only: That Foles will be more prone to shoulder injuries and/or concussions…

            For general, next year, we need to see Foles…

            1) Throw with a lot more confidence and twitch thinking. I know we’re supposed to keep the interceptions down, but it’s basically part of a proper QB’s game. The point is not to throw stupid interceptions. The problem isn’t just Foles holding onto the ball–it’s the overall conservatism. That includes which receivers/situations he threw to just as much as whether he threw at all.

            2) Gotta be more accurate outside the numbers with higher velocity, lower arc throws.

            3) Gotta be better in terms of agility. He is far too easy to bring down, and he needs to be far more capable of short yardage rushing (out of a pass play) and reset downs. We don’t have to expect him to grab seven, ten, fifteen yards. However, there is no reason he can’t get two or three.

            4) He can’t get rattled anymore. I’m not sure, but it seems like that if you manage to hit him on a regular basis, his mechanics and decision-making tends to go out the window. Get up, rub some dirt on the forming bruise and drink some lethe-juice. Play it again.

          • shah8

            Just came across something juicy in Benjamin Allbright’s twitter…

            He sez that there are three thumbs up/thumbs down rules that he follows…

            9 and 1/8 inch hands

            Dude has to be 22 or younger at draft (Foles/Wilson violate this, however, there is a very strong propensity for busts for older QB prospects)

            Has to throw roughly 55mph on the radar gun (doesn’t really do arm strength, per se, but it does probably measure basic coordination and zip)

            There have been people with small hands and older draft picks, but looking at the people going back to 2008, nobody who’s got beneath 54mph has ever been remotely successful.

            thought that was interesting…

          • Neil

            Man, what’s up with Foles throwing 57? I wouldn’t have expected that watching him his rookie year, but his velocity did seem better last season. Still not quite living up to 57 if Kaep can do 59.

    • D3Center

      You can’t discount the Detroit snow game in the states for the games after the bye because that severely limited the big play for potential for at least D-Jax. And the Oakland game helped to greatly inflate both of their stats in the first group of games. Although I don’t think those two games completely explain the differences they definitely contribute to it.

  • GEAGLE

    Jarius Byrd won’t be tagged an is hitting the open market. He is represented by Eugene Parker who bills fans notoriously hate for delivering Jason Peters to the Eagles lol..Parkets agency also recently aquired the agents that represent Boykin and Kendricks

    Btw, Worlids is represented by the agent who did the Barwin and Kelce deals

  • bsuperfi

    The really interesting part about the trade idea is that the eagles must think very highly of maclin. There’s very little chance the team could draft a wr early and have the production it needs to simply replace djax immediately. One could actually build a pretty good case that maclin could be a real player down the road. He seems to get better every year. He was a first round talent. He’d be In a spread, where he excelled in college (bubble screens and all). He largely played on a deteriorating and dysfunctional eagles team. Most of all, he’s versatile, which Kelly loves.

    I don’t see maclin turning into a top five or even ten receiver. But maybe top fifteen. Play him with a decent wr in cooper and an emerging high wr draft pick, with a breaking gout te like ertz and celek and shady to boot, and the options are scary. Just put the ball where he defense isn’t, per Kelly’s philosophy.

    So, if djax could be swapped for some good picks, I could see this being attractive to a team on the rise.

    All that said, I’d only trade djax for a high enough offer. But I wouldn’t be categorically opposed to fielding them.

  • austinfan

    The mistake people make is thinking you have to replace DeSean. In the past, Maclin stepped in when DeSean was injured and the offense didn’t miss a beat, not because they replaced DeSean, but because they adjusted the offense to use the skills of different players.

    DeSean has less value in Chip’s offense because he doesn’t use DeSean strictly as a deep threat, he has him run a lot of screens and underneath routes, the problem is DeSean isn’t special running those plays, he’s very fast, but without a clean lane he really doesn’t create on his own, the next arm tackle he breaks will be his first. Watch him on the end arounds, he’s not very good at cutting back, he depends on outrunning the defense.

    If they were to trade DeSean, I suspect Chip would be looking for a quick more than fast WR who can make big plays out of underneath routes – he has two legitimate deep threats (Cooper b/c of size, Maclin height and speed combo) that can keep safeties honest even if they don’t provide the same level of threat – but they don’t have the guy like Westbrook who can take a screen pass 60 yards.

    • shah8

      Man, that second para…

    • holeplug

      Cooper’s not really a deep threat. teams stuck their #2 corner on him with no safety help the entire year b/c they know he isn’t very good

      • Neil

        Yeah, but with Maclin in the fold that’s not going to be so different in the future with or without Jackson. If they really want to allocate a safety over Cooper we can surely run the ball on that look or throw to Maclin. If they have two deep safeties we’re running the ball practically 100% of the time.

      • austinfan

        And what did he average per catch?
        He’s not a dominant WR, but if you don’t give safety help he can burn you deep (and will get better with experience) because he had decent speed, good athleticism, and 6’3 222 lb WRs tend to win jump balls against 5’10 CBs.

  • Vick or Nick

    The only way I see the Eagles really seriously consider trading DJax is if him and his agent continue to pester the Eagles and Howie about getting more guaranteed money. Eagles aren’t having it.

  • GEAGLE

    Entire offseason should be about two things:
    1) putting FOles in the best position possible in his first year as the man
    .l
    2) improving the defenses ability to get off the field on 3rd and long
    ..
    If a move isn’t in in the best interest of one of those two things, I’m automatically against it

    • Jernst

      Agreed!! I can’t believe after so many years of hearing fans complain that all the Eagles ever did was lead the league in unused cap space, that now we have to endure fans calling for them to trade away their best weapons (and then promptly try to replace them with the very draft picks we obtained by trading them) all to save cap space while were still $20 mil under the cap. It’s bizarre, man.

      • GEAGLE

        Crazy isn’t it?

      • Insomniac

        I’m pretty sure the people who want to trade Djax is in the minority. However, if the Texans called and offered us the 1st pick this year…yea I’ll take the deal and run with it.

        • cliff henny

          seems like half the people on the trade DJ side, arent even in favor of trading, just in justifying it is a possibility. i’ll give it 1% possibility this year. now, ’15, if Mac comes back healthy and productive, draft devante adams in 2nd and 5th rdr like Landry (though saw his 4.7 time hasnt hurt him all that much-holding out hope it does), or make your own combo, light it up, then i’ll give rumors more legs.
          .
          now that writers dont have Vick, toss Jax name out and wait for the hits.

          • Insomniac

            I expect Landry to run better at his pro day so don’t get your hopes up of getting him on day 2.

        • Jernst

          Well yea…every player has a price. Hell if someone offered my their next 4 first rounders and 4 second rounders for Tom Brady I’d pull trigger at this point in his career. And, I’d give up DeSean for the #1 overall draft pick this year and rebuild the rest of the roster with the picks I got from trading back. But, that’s different than saying we SHOULD be looking to dump Jackson to the highest bidder just because, [insert reason that doesn't make sense to me here]

          • Insomniac

            Dump Djax because he’s a horrible rapper.

          • Jernst

            haha diamonds round my neck might be the worst song I’ve heard in a long time. Over/under on how long after he retires does Jackson last until he goes bankrupt?

          • D3FB

            Draft Meek Mill at 22!

  • nopain23

    First of all i don’t believe this rumor.
    But if watkins is sitting there at 6 and Oakland is willing to trade for Djax and our 22nd Howie would be crazy not to take that deal.
    Watkins is a beast. He’s aCOMPLETE receiver…plus we’ll have him on the cheap for a few years. Imagine watkins,cooper and maclin on the field at the same time with ertz and shady….one can only dream

  • SteveH

    I mean, what would good value for Jackson even be? Would we take a mid 1st rounder in this years draft? I’m just not really sure what his value is.

    • Neil

      I think good value would be somewhere in the twenties. That’s a little less than what Harvin pulled.

      • SteveH

        Personally I wouldn’t take that deal, but I can’t see a team offering more. IMO that would be the problem with trying to deal him, I doubt we’d get offered enough to make the deal worthwhile. There’s no way I’m letting him walk for less than something around pick 10~, unless it was a situation where it was a pick and a player.

  • izzylangfan

    The main thing about trading DeSean is that it just makes too much sense:
    1. You’re paying Cooper $5 million. They obviously want Maclin and if he has a good year they are going to pay him a good bit more than the $6 million he is getting this year. So do you really want to have another $12 million tied up in DeSean plus what ever it takes for the other 3 or 4 WRs one or two of which have to be at more than minimum salary. Everyone expects Ertz to come along this year and generally for Chip to be able to get more out of the TE position going forward. So do you really want to have $25 plus million tied up in this one position by the time you have to pay real money to the quarterback.
    2. DeSean, as you point out is not ideally productive. He gets taken out of games too easily at times. While he plays the slot a fair amount, he cannot do all of what you normally expect a slot receiver to do. He is not a productive red zone receiver. He has had a couple of subpar seasons with the suspicion that the cause was lack of effort.
    3. Drama is one thing, but damaging the team with lack of effort and holdouts is another.
    4. Chip is actually a good coach who can figure out ways to score without DeSean.

    I look for the Eagles to draft a pretty impressive WR in the first three rounds this year. I would bet DeSean is gone by the time the season starts in 2015. This year may be a bit too soon since it may take a year for a rookie WR to be ready and Mac could take a few games as well. Now if some team offers a first round pick, I would probably take it. Especially since this year is still probably too soon to reasonably expect a Super Bowl win. However, with a little luck and two hits in the defensive free agent market and two good defensive picks in the first three rounds of the draft, you never know. If we get another first for Desean and can add a defensive stud – it starts to look pretty good. Credit to Jimmy K. for thinking out of the box and turning what seemed like a wild idea into common sense.

    • GENETiC-FREAK

      You think DJax gets taken out of games.. Well wait when Cooper or Maclin become the number 1 receiver n see if they can be a factor all game with the CB n S on the top of them.. DJax aint Megatron but hes the best WR we have on this team with the stats n play to back it up

  • Ian Patrick

    i see this more as a way to get younger than it is to really shit on DJax. i think Kelly really wants Josh Gordon and covets size and speed. Gordon is big physical and a freak talent. i think this is more of a back 9 rumor than the whole nonsense T Law and Jimmy K are drumming up. i think they know his age is about to catch up with him. better to cash out and get younger than it is to over stay your welcome. that said, i do not care for the move because he is a proven playmaker. the only way i trade for him is a slightly better draftposition to a land a bonafide player or acquire an ascending player. like, im talking id want AJ green in return for the trade. that type of deal. or at least someone on that level of potential. i love gordon but he is very injury prone. jackson may be small, but overall his durability isnt too bad. ever since Kolb left thats been laid to bed a little bit.

  • Tom W

    Wow discussing more silly rumors. Yea lets create a giant hole at wr w only a kid on a one yr deal coming off an acl who is going to take biggest offer next yr and a wr3 who can’t beat man coverage and needs Djax to get single coverage. Djax contract allows us to get rid of him whenever we want but the kid just had a career yr. lesean was a big pain in the ass last offseason and says a ton of dumbshit on twitter … Lets trade him too. After they cut avant they are only spending alotta money at wr for one year ….beyond this yr it’s just Djax and coop. Really must be a slow news weekend. Sad our media is fueling flames of another superstar like they do habitually over last 20 yrs …..

  • gherbox

    Man, everyone getting butthurt on the fact that this is being discussed as a possibility.

  • Mac

    Jackson isn’t getting any younger… at some point you either trade or commit. It’s all about the offer on the table.

  • bridgecoach

    Setting all the emotion aside, these past two threads have produced some excellent and in depth debate. Kudos to Jimmy, Tommy and all those who have contributed to this discussion. No other fans have this kind of intelligent argument on their message boards. I’m especially proud to be an Eagles fan as I pour over everyone’s posts on each side. Really fantastic football talk!

    I think it is valuable to discuss possibilities. I want our Eagles to be the trailblazer (part of why I’m so enthusiastic to witness the Chip Kelly era); let the rest play catch-up. I want us to dare to be great.

    To that end, NFL player trades are rare. But if we have players who are valuable enough to other teams (or vice-versa) to make it worthwhile to trade – by all means – lets see if there is a deal, and money and wins to be made!

    I don’t think this about Jackson’s (or Dion Jordon’s) attitude or work ethic, I think it is about trade value. Would you trade DJ for Sammy Watkins? Would you trade him for Clowney? or Mack? Sure any of them could get injured and never play again, or maybe the rookies don’t convert to NFL players – balance the risk and and upside.