More on CBs
Posted: April 21st, 2014 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 148 Comments »I expect the Eagles to draft a CB, as early as the 1st round or possibly in the middle rounds. They have a pair of starters in place for 2014, but there is a need to upgrade the position for the long haul. So let’s talk about what the Eagles are looking for.
Bill Davis and Chip Kelly haven’t offered exact information, but they have talked about wanting big corners. Davis also wants physical corners. The goal in his defense is for the corner to play tight and affect the receiver. Don’t give him a clean release. You can do this by jamming the receiver or by playing press coverage and simply not giving him room to work with. Bump ‘n run and press coverage are not the same thing. Press doesn’t mean there has to be contact. The CB can simply line up on top of the receiver and then mirror his steps at the release. Some players/coaches are hesitant with jamming receivers for fear of missing and getting burned. By pressing, the receiver is affected in a less risky way.
I’m not going to talk about every top CB prospect. I’m going to focus on a few guys from different areas of the draft.
We know DBs coach John Lovett was at the Pro Day for Darqueze Dennard. The Eagles have to be interested in the Michigan State star. He is a top shelf cover corner, even though he lacks the ideal size/speed ratio. Dennard is 5-11, 199, but only ran 4.51. That’s not fast for a guy who isn’t huge. Another concern for the Eagles is that his arms are only 30 1/4. They would prefer 32 or 33 inches.
Watch Dennard’s game tape and you’ll see why he’s so highly thought of.
He has outstanding man cover skills. Dennard can be physical with receivers. He can play the ball. He has good instincts. Plus, he’s ultra-competitive. He wants to make every play. Dennard is a solid hitter and tackler. He will play the run. I could see the Eagles considering him at 22.
The 2nd round player I like is Bashaud Breeland from Clemson. He ran 4.62 at the Combine and re-timed 4.57 at his Pro Day. That hurts his value since he’s only 5-11, 197. He does have 31 3/4 arms. Breeland is quick, agile and has very good feet. He has outstanding ball skills. That’s something the Eagles value. They like a CB who can knock the ball away in the air. They teach very specific techniques for this. Breeland does it naturally, but could get even better with good coaching.
Breeland plays right, left and in the slot. That’s the kind of versatility the Eagles value. He will hit and tackle. He was booted from the FSU game for hitting Jameis Winston in the head. You don’t like that, but at least there is no hesitation before contact. If Breeland was a hair faster, he could be a 1st round player. His lack of long speed is an issue on deep routes. Breeland excels when allowed to press and be physical with receivers.
The more I watch Stanley Jean-Baptiste, the more he’s grown on me. I still have concerns with him athletically, but he’s good at what he does…being physical with receivers. SJB wants to bump, grab, push and anything else he can do to keep players from getting a clean release.
There was a discussion about SJB not being aggressive enough as a hitter and tackler. I watched several of his games over the weekend. In 3 of them, he took on a pulling O-lineman. That’s not something a wuss does. SJB does hesitate before getting into some piles. I don’t know if there is a previous injury from this or what, but he will hit and tackle in open space.
The Eagles were at his Pro Day. They have to love a guy that is 6-3, 218 with 32 3/8 arms. That’s a huge CB that can affect plays just by being in an area. He did only run 4.61 at the Combine, but that’s more acceptable for a guy that is 218 pounds.
I wouldn’t want SJB until the 3rd round. The Eagles might feel different and taking him in the late 2nd wouldn’t be the worst thing ever. He’s just not my ideal guy, but if Davis wants huge corners and thinks SJB is a great fit, that makes sense.
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I’m still trying to figure out some other corners. Putting a value on small school guys like Pierre Desir and Walt Aikens is tough. Both are big and athletic. Phillip Gaines from Rice is a freak athlete that I need to study more. Dontae Johnson from NC State was mis-used in college so his tape isn’t ideal. They played him off most of the time, despite the fact he’s an ideal press corner.
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The Eagles offseason program kicks off today. The one bit of news is this.
Eagles All Pro LG Evan Mathis is expected to be a no-show when team kicks off voluntary offseason workout program this week.
— Paul Domowitch (@pdomo) April 21, 2014
I thought this situation had gone away, but apparently not. We’ll see if anything comes of it. I sure hope not. Mathis is one of my favorite Eagles and he’s a darn good player.
Stay tuned.
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Two of my mind round favorites are Jaylen Watkins and Terrence Mitchell
You dare temp the gods and draft another “other brother”? Lol
Watkins can actually play, he fits the Eagles mold of versatile players at he has played both FS and CB.
I know..I like the kid too…just breaking balls
with the run on WR in RD 1 Dennard might very well be available at 22. I don’t expect sconces to be on the roster next year so Dennard at 22 might not be a bad idea.
With this mathis situation and djax being jettisoned this has been a pretty ugly offseason for iggles fan. Seems like bad omens all around for the draft. I hope i’m wrong but i suspect the draft might turn out to be a dumpster fire as well.
T-Law — great great stuff!!!
Rotoworld has a mock draft saying Dennard would be a week 1 starter for the Eagles. I don’t know how true that is but they apparently like Dennard.
I ride or die with defense, but drafting a CB in the first 3 rounds would probably piss me off…if a rd 1 CB falls to 54, I understand you have to strongly consider it, but I really hope we don’t get a corner before round 4…if your front 7 isn’t in place, who cares about the secondary? Use this draft to get right up front and give your secondary players some help……Richard Sherman is going to get got playing without a pass rush
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With Jenkins in Philly. I think our CB will finally get to do what we signed them to do, press and battle WR at the LOS..wouldn’t be surprised if allowing them to play their game provides us with better CB play than we got last year
Problem is, you cant reach for a WR or OLB at 22, so if Lee, Beckham, Cooks, Evans and Watkins is gone at 22 along with Clowney, Barr and Mack, what do you do (assume no trade back)
if all of those wrs are gone and Barr and you can’t trade back then someone fell like ebron or gilbert or mosely or Haha.
Luckily SOMEONE is gonna be there at 22 that we really really like. I guess that’s the plus of a deep draft.
Oh I totally agree….that’s why I been pounding the table HARD for trade back…22 is just horrible for us!! If all them are gone, than a DT would have fallen to us I assume…honestly, either I’m reaching for Marcus or Attaboy, or I’m scooping a TE up I guess…maybe A-Rob….if he were in school another year he probably wouldn’t last til 22…all I know, is our first pick better have pro bowl potential
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George…def agree that Gilbert is someone to be happy about, but he won’t last til 22. Don’t care for Dennard or Roby…I like Fuller, but I don’t like him at 22….
The only corner i have a 1st rd grade on is gilbert, but he won’t last until us. IF he is there though, and that is a longshot, I’d love him. Has all the measurables, plus is versatile and is great in the return game. I’d love him if he somehow slips to 22. But ither than that, nobody else
It’s crazy, that is like the round two and three prospects so much more than what will be available at 22….so I’d probably reach for someone like A-Rob or Marcus smith! but I’d prefer to trade that silly 22nd pick to the dolphins for you know who 🙂
I’m down for that
Jenkins isn’t the answer but I would also really hate to see them take a big CB with their first or second pick.
I ride or die with defense, but drafting a CB in the first 3 rounds would probably piss me off…if a rd 1 CB falls to 54, I understand you have to strongly consider it, but I really hope we don’t get a corner before round 4…if your front 7 isn’t in place, who cares about the secondary? Use this draft to get right up front and give your secondary players some help……Richard Sherman is going to get got playing without a pass rush
Correction: 89 babies so going young wasn’t part of the plan
I don’t like drafting older guys, mostly out of a heavy preference for drafting younger guys (so awesome the Shady and Mac have been around forever and they’re still so young), but I don’t think the FO is bothered by it as much. If a player can be in their primes for the duration of 2 contracts, I think they’re happy. So basically a higher round guy that you project for immediate impact I think they would pull the trigger. You probably don’t take an older project to stash away on the practice squad or special teams though.
Can’t disagree….my beef really is drafting a 23yr old who lacks serious polish. I view the draft as two types of picks:
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1) Plug and Play draft picks..Mike Evans, Khalil Mack! Odell Beckham
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2) The upside, high value picks that need to be brought on slowly but may really pay off for you down the road…
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In THIS draft, with 100 Underclassmen, some of which are serious WR prospects, I don’t know how happy I can be with a 23 year old who lacks as much polish as KB….I can’t really call him a plug and play player, and if we are going with the upside type of pick, I feel we are better served gettng Chip one of these 20-21yr old super athletes…
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If KB was 21, it be a no BRAINER for me….but he lacks soooo much polish at age 23, that it worries me
Yeah, KB would get no separation in the NFL…like ever, he would only get “open” in the classic sense against zone and busted coverage. The rest of the time “open” will be all about him getting in position and a well placed ball, such that he can catch the ball with a guy all over him. Those types of pitch and catches where the CB has perfect coverage and you just say, that’s not even fair… He was doing some of this in college, but for a lot of young bigger guys, it takes time to adjust that to the nfl. Time he might not have. That’s why it’s important for him to meet with the coaches for them to judge how natural he is and how fast he can pick it up. You really gotta be a bully with measurables like his. I’d be willing to risk our (late) second round pick on him if he was there. Probably not a first. There will be younger guys who are a surer thing at #22, I think.
Can’t agree more….it also probably hurts him that he isn’t really a screen guy either, which is important in this offense…I’d rather have Moncreif or A-Rob blocking for a Screen or catching the screen
Hehe unsullied…nice GOT reference.
Well, hopefully Paul Domowitch’s report was as simple an issue of having a bad source. Sounds like Evan Mathis WILL be there.
Also, just to be clear, these are voluntary workouts, and while you always prefer having everyone there, every year, there are a few guys who don’t show up for one reason or another but end up showing up without a problem for TC.
https://twitter.com/Tim_McManus/status/458244834424532992
Apparently Evan Mathis is having fun with the media:
https://twitter.com/pdomo/status/458251715629043712
I’m not sure, but I think he skipped voluntary workouts last year or the year before in favor of working with his team at the gym he owns. So I don’t even think it would be much of a statement even if he were absent.
Converselt, it is a statement that he is attending.
I love this team. great group of guys. especially that oline.
How bout we get a first rounder at a fourth or fifth round discount and take aaron colvin from oklahoma. We don’t need him this year (just like tommy admitted when he said take fuller in the first rd couple weeks ago).
Otherwise, I like Antone Exum, Terence Mitchell and Dontae Johnson in the fourth-fifth round range… w Antone and Dontae possibly being switched to safety.
Watkins doesn’t thrill me … watched him get beat up by Benjamin pretty bad and the Bama wrs and Lsu wrs.
Dunno if chip looks at small school guys but desir would interest me if he lasted to the third round for sure … or walt aikens from liberty in the seventh if he lasts that long. was pretty grabby at the senior bowl practices.
Looking at our meetings, workouts, interviews … its pretty apparent we are stressing wrs and olbs early, corners and ilbs and guards in the mid rounds, and tes and dt and d ends late. doubt they like this years’ weak safety class aside from a dontae johnson or exum who are corners w significant experience at safety. Brock Vereen looks good on tape and is athletic as hell but dont know if we have any interest late.
Love Mitchell! but Exum is significantly better prospect…T Mitch is my 5th round fall back guy….yeah I like Vereen but not til 6th round Jonathon Dowling range…think AiKENS will go in the 5th, but I like him…
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You are spot on….
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WR/LBs early
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Secondary/OL in mid rounds..
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DTs and TEs late….
Sucks Niners are gonna scoop up Brandon Thomas and Aaron Colvin like they did last year w allthose extra picks … cant they just trade 22 for that late second and couple thirds ….
What do you think of Ryan Shazer at 22 if Barr, Ebron, Mosely, Gilbert, ODB, Evans off the board …….will chip see that uber athleticism and say bpa? is he too little to be the thumper next to kendricks? what if we aren’t sold on kendricks? I’m having nightmares we end up w Mosely/Shazer at 22 if we can’t find a trade partner. just force a wr at that point.
Need Houston or Jax or Raiders to jump the browns at 26 and pay us even if Fat andy wants to trade back too to get his second back. we gotta match fat andy’s trade offer to trade back. Then we need someteam to fall in love w Jimmy G or Savage or Ealy or Roby and trade w us again.
Do you think Colt Lyeria is even on the eagles board in the 7th round? Matt Waldman has him as his number one rated te just based on game tape which made me freaking happy as shit and pissed all at once if we took him off the board …. Waldman is also super high on Latimer and Galoon from Michigan and sneakily Norwood from bama. sees the upside w moncrief and robinson and bryant. not a fan of benjamin and not too high on lee.
Saw Cosell really jocking Moncrief at end of second or third round … also loved ODB and Robinson ….
Saw Jeremiah tweeting pass rushers gonna get pushed up … if KVN, Marcus, and Attaboy all go before 54 not not not going to be happy … think KVN is a lock to go by 40 and attaboy could get grabbed by the ravens ….
Barr is definitely possible at 22. Dunno what I want more though … Barr or an extra third and more.
Man I don’t know what to think of Shazier….I’d love to have him on 3rd down, because the league is trending to where you need smaller RBs who can really run and cover on 3rd down, but I really really struggle seeing how we could play him in our base…
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See no chance Chip plays him at ROLB, And I’m even struggle to see how he could replace Meco, and play with Kendrick, especially since it seems like our Multi front defense will use a smaller NT than the 340lb everyone wants….no idea what we will think about that kid…I like him, but I can get similar 3rd down subpackage coverage from later picks like Telvin or Kirksey…..
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I assume, if we draft him, it’s because we expect him to replace Meco eventually. But I struggle seeing him in that role, so I don’t even know what to tell you about him…your guess is probably better than mine..I’m stumped by him
Dunno wtf to think about Lyerla…I know that if he wasn’t a maniac and stayed in school I’d probably be wishing we draft him in round 2….he is that type of talent….but Chip really really has the inside scoop on that kid. If Chip thinks we can help him get his life together, than I’m sure we would pounce on him he is just too talented to not take in round 7…but for all we know, Chip may think that kid is a lost cause and just too far gone…
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In a dream world Alll the Oregon kids like T.Mitch, Hart, Dat,Lyerla, the safety, Lokombo all go Undrafted because you know they are signing with philly..
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I also can’t help thinking that if we didn’t want Lyerla, Chip would ATleast do that kid a solid, invite him for a visit, try to help drum up some type of interest for that kid…instead Lyerla is like the forgotten man..never hear anything about it….and I kind of like it that way
I’m actually starting to hear chatter about Marcus and Attaucho In round 1 which makes me nervous…saw A Mock that had him going to Dallas In round 1 ahead of Barr who went 18 to Jets….
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Pass rusher is probably the very most important thing for us…and it’s extremely valued and Jerrremiah is probably right about our boys going higher because it’s so week with pass rushers,
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If we are going to consider Dee Ford or Kony at 22, then it’d just draft Marcus and get it over with….think both Marcus and Attaboy are better prospects than Ford
What’s not to like about Dennard? Looks like he can do it all.
I’ve been impressed by the random game tape I’ve seen.
Some questions about how well his style of play will carry over to the NFL.
This. Dennard is so grabby that it scares a lot of people.
And he’s so slow that if he doesn’t grab people he’ll get burned all day.
I’ve said before that if you want a CB to start day-1, he’s probably the guy to draft because he’s the most pro ready, but if you can afford to have a guy sit for a while then steer clear ’cause he has pretty minimal upside.
We’ll said….we have the teachers in place and the stopgap corners in place to swing for the fences and go with Later round CB raw, but with high upside and let our coaches turn him into a player
That’s sort of the story of our current CBS. They were very good when the refs were letting a little contact slide.
I know another guy who ran low 4.5s and is really grabby. He talks a lot of trash and is a world champion.
Yup – and on a team where they prefer having specialists than guys who are versatile that can work fine. The Eagles are not that team (as Tommy pointed out the other day) and that’s why I think it’s strange that they’d have interest.
I don’t see it with Dennard….think the eagles would prefer Robys upside, maybe even Fuller,.,.but unless Gilbert falls, I’d be pretty surprised if we drafted a CB in round 1
He also happen to be four inches taller, his arms are two inches longer and jumps two inches higher. Much harder to throw over on those deep routes where long speed comes into play.
I figured someone would point that out :P. I just like being contraryian when people get over excited about foot speed in speedos.
L.O.B!
L.o.Z LEGIOn OF ZOOM(Chip Kelly offense!!)
CBs who run slower than 4.5 tend to drop in the draft, since a lot of teams like to leave their CB on an island, and a slower guy is trouble waiting to happen (remember Dimitri Patterson, solid CB with deep help, toast without it).
Eagles keep both safeties off the LOS so they can give CBs deep help, that means the ability to press and close on the ball quickly and tackle in space is more important than deep speed – so they can bargain hunt in the 2nd and 3rd rounds and even find starting CBs later in the draft.
In the same fashion, they don’t need a great Safety who can play CF.
On the other hand, it also means the front seven has to be able to stop the run without safety help, DBs job in run support is to come up and close quickly to tackle AFTER they first take care of coverage responsibilities – take away the deep play, but the front seven is responsible for controlling the opponent’s rushing game – and that’s why they’ll probably add another 300 lb DE prospect and a replacement for Meco in 2015.
Tommy, I’d be interested in your thoughts after watching Walt Aiken.
I put together a 4 round draft board, in case anyone is interested in ripping me a new a** hole. Just one thing to keep in mind, this board is based on an average of where OTHER people ranked players. I just compiled a bunch of numbers and spit it out on paper. This is with the Eagles in mind, but it’s certainly not specific to them. There will be players on this board who I’m sure the Eagles won’t have on their board.
Nice work. started my own but haven’t finished cause I went till later rounds.
dunno if you need to break the rounds down as much as you did but can’t hurt. only critique is you may have included too many prospects (qbs and rbs especially) … some of the guys eagles may not even look at bc of measurables/fit like the midget corner verrett. not gonna critique grades bc “each their own” but your grades aren’t bad by any means. Though Shaq was a few rounds high. good stuff.
Same as me Barr is the pick if he falls. trouble comes if Mosely is till there what will eagles do vs. a wr they like. hope we trade back.
Yeah, I didn’t really tailor it to the Eagles exactly. I was going to do that but it would have taken A LOT more time. Essentially, I looked at 7 or 8 mock drafts / player rankings from various (reputable) sites. I then figured out an average ranking for each player and charted them accordingly. So the guys who I ranked as top 5 prospects had an average ranking or mock position between 1.0 and 5.0. EVERY player on my board had a ranking of 125 or higher. 125.1 didn’t make the cut.
I italicized guys who visited or worked out for the Eagles. In rounds two or three you see some players are in bold. In column 1C (top 30) the players in bold have a 22 or better ranking. 22, because that’s where the Eagles pick. So even though there 9 players in that top 30 category, only 3 have grades that would make them worth the #22 pick (in theory). Same thing in rounds 2 and 3. I didn’t bother doing that in round 4 because the Eagles pick at #122 and I only included players with rankings 125 or better.
AWESOME WORK! You need to remove Benjamin from your board however.
Wow, great work. I would love to see Tommy build on this idea with comments and favorites on draft day.
Yes, I mentioned this in a comment a couple weeks back. That’s what made me think to do one of my own. I would love to see Tommy’s board, specific to the Eagles.
Where’s Marcus Smith? Couldn’t spot him.
Capital work, by the way.
He’s in row 3A (Top 90) under OLB. Converting the spreadsheet from Excel to a JPG did screw up some of the formatting.
That’s good.
Question….has anyone ever been to the draft? Me and my buds were thinking bout going, wondering if anyone ever went and can speak on it?
going to nba draft when the hink king lands us wiggins and vonlah somehow
if eagles trade back you might lke day 2 (rounds 2-3) alot more.
Very true….considering I don’t even want the Eagles to pick in round 1, waiting til round two may be the power move…isn’t rd 1 on a Thursday anyway?
ewwwwww….. Giant fans.
Eh..ZacKley!!!
I was thinking of attending the draft. Let me know if you’re going and we can catch up?!
Which day were u planning? My friends are talking round 1, but I don’t know how I feel about that. I have work the next morrningl and considering I prefer us not drafting in round 1 I dunno if it’s worth it for me…but if I can talk one of my friends into driving down on day two, I’ll def make sure I post and give you the heads up. Should know by monday
Day 2 is better . . . you at least get two rounds.
Right…plus I’m hoping we pick ATleast 3 times that day
I was thinking day 1, but I heard it’s either hit or miss to get on actually. Apart from the long lines…!
Day 2 should be more relaxed. Just holla back and we could also have some beers!
Spear the first loser in an Eli jersey you see!
Curious as to why Jace Amaro gets no play in philly? I like Casey and expect him to have a bigger role this year, but with so many fans talking crap about Case Dogg, I’m surprised drafting Amaro as the “move” TE gets no play? I’d rather Sefarian Jenkins but I view him as Celek replacement wher as I view Jace as Casey Hback replacement
“One guy told me that even though it’s not publicly known, he was
arrested the night before, and another came right out and told me he was
currently high. Plus, one of the corners we had at the top of our board
immediately told us he’s planning on stabbing someone at a nightclub
next week. This was a particularly forthright class.”
http://www.theonion.com/articles/jaguars-surprised-by-string-of-prospects-openly-di,35822/
The Onion made the mistake by making this article about the Jags and before the draft. They should have made it about the guys the Niners actually pick in a few weeks.
So I’m curious how this fits into the ‘versatility’ angle from the other day. I would’ve thought Chip/Billy would prefer guys who /can/ press but are also capable of operating out of other looks – the guys listed above are pretty much exclusively press-man guys. I would’ve thought they’d be more likely to focus on players that are capable of press-man but also have the athleticism to play zone and off-man when needed.
For that reason I’d rather see Roby or Fuller in the first round than Dennard – not too sure about second round guys, though.
Doesn’t press require more athleticism than zone or off?
More athleticism to stick with the guy down the field, maybe, but not as much if you give him a big shove at the start and don’t let him get a clean release – then you just have to be in the general area and the disruption to his route will have the QB wary to throw in your direction.
Ehh I like Roby as a second rounder but he’s kind of a reach in the first round.
I dunno – his upside is pretty ridiculous and he was largely considered the top CB in this class before last season; tail end of the first seems about right to me.
I worry about the rating of anybody going into Ohio State because of that program being overrated to begin with along with Urban Meyer being fluffed 24/7 by all of the Notre Dame idiots who are still pining away for him to to Dead End, Indiana to coach their team.
So was Matt Barkley and Lee at some point. His physical tools are there but he’s not mentally there yet. Inconsistency isn’t what you want from a CB.
Where people are ranked prior to the season isn’t worth anything.
http://www.sbnation.com/nfl-mock-draft/2013/8/22/4646960/2014-nfl-draft-top-100-big-board
Lol. Purifoy, DAT, and Coleman in the top 75.
McCuller at 29, Sutton at 15, Hubbard at 22.
That is true – although my point was largely predicated on the fact that it’s only due to widespread overreaction to a (relative) down year that he’s not still there. I accept that he’s not the most pro-ready prospect, and that the top-10 ranking from your link is clearly no longer accurate, but if he was drafted top-20 I wouldn’t be at all surprised.
Personally I would be shocked. He is on the aggregate viewed as the fifth best corner. Fuller has the fewest holes and is the most pro ready as well as the most versatile, Dennard is the most physical, Gilbert is bigger and just as athletic plus is a dynamic return man, and if Verrett were 2 inches taller he would be a top 10 pick.
That seems fair – I think Gilbert’s gonna be the first CB off the board and then after that I’d have Roby and Fuller about even, although some teams might have Dennard or Verrett ahead if they particularly want a big guy or a small guy. I still think 20-40 is the most likely area for him, I just wouldn’t be particularly surprised if someone took him earlier than that.
To each his own, but I’ll take the over on pick 40.
Which prospects are getting the most play in the press for the Eagles? Those are the players we can remove from our board….No shot in hell that the media knows who we like with the 22nd pick when they could barely figure out who we liked with the 4th pick….KB is being too often connected to us, and I take that as a good sign, since I don’t really want him in philly……
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However, it’s been a long time since the birds spend. First round pick on someone who doesn’t play in the trenches,…
OBJ OBJ OBJ!!!!!!
Don’t you mean….ODB,ODB ODB!!!
Or he’s just a happy dude that just got One BJ.
Well played sir
After 4 doubles the bartender asked him if he was celebrating the BJ. He said that he was just trying ti get the taste out if his mouth. Old joke.
One a day keeps the doctor away 😉
Benjamin @ 22 to the Eagles might get a TV busted.
I heard that!!! If they are going to take him at 22, then just reach for Robinson…..then again, drafting ANYONE besides Barr at 22 is going to piss me off unless someone crazy like Gilbert,Donald,Ebron fall ..gotta trade that pick….would love to see Lewan fall, I’d scoop him up real quick and dangle him in the dolphins face on June 1st or you know who lol
I don’t Lewan. He’s a massive piece of human garbage. Threatening to rape a girl for bringing forth legitimate rape charges is a cowardly act. I’ll be up on my feet cheering once Lewan gets his knee blown out.
He’s not going to fit a locker room unless you have him supervised 24/7/365. Especially after the Incognito drama, then again Big Ben got away with it so…some desperate team will pick him up despite him being a scumbag.
Don’t want a OT…I want a OT to trade to Miami
Praying for NO QBs drafted In top 5…want all those teams squirming to have to jump the texans at the top of round 2 for a QB because they were greedy and took Sammy Watkins,Clowney,Greg Robinson and Mack at the top of the draft….so that all those early round two teams will have to jump the texans for a QB…..so If we can trade back with the Niners,broncos or Seahawks who are all in trying to win a SB, we could end up trading back twice from 22 and getting a kings ransom:
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Trade back to 30 so Niners can get a top WR or CB…and then trade back from 30 because someone will most likely Jump the texans…so our first pick wouldn’t come til top ten in round two…
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Of course this is all made easier of say the Vikings take a DE/OT at 7, and then want to jump ahead of Cleveland at 24 to steal a falling QB…Vikings were pretty darn agressive last year drafting 3’timea in round 1….but moving all the way up to 22 from like #7 in round 2 is pretty darn expensive…we probably need someone like Teddy to fall to 22 to Make a team think about giving up some costly compensation….
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Never thought I’d be jealous of Browns fans…those mofos have more picks than Hinkie In round two
GE —
If you were the Eagles’ GM, what is the least you’d accept to trade back at each 1st-Rd slot after No. 22?
For example, in your comment, you say trade back to No. 30.
What’s the least you’d accept?
I ask because, post-draft 2013, Roseman went on record saying the Birds looked at trading back but didn’t like any of the offers enough.
If a couple of QB’s fall i think we should be able to get a Pick 35 and 67 from the Raiders, or something like 40, 72 and 5th from someone like the Vikings.
Here is the chart.
http://walterfootball.com/draftchart.php
MM —
I should have been more clear in my question.
The chart’s a tool. How far off the suggested values would you go . . . etc.
This year…I’d practically accept any compensation as long as it’s a pick in this years draft
Honestly.,,I’m taking the best offer, don’t even care if it’s not that great…there is quality to be he all over this draft….I’d take a friggin 4th to trade back to 30, and I would never say that in a normal year..I’m auctioning that pick and accept whatever the best deal is, no matter how little…their are friggin 6th round picks I’m drooling over this year..I don’t want anyone at 22, if I were to keep the pick I would reach for someone anyway..so y thumb my nose at any compensation? Rather trade back, just so the medi shuts up about me reaching for someone I really want like Marcus. Or A Rob
Eagles trade up, jump the dolphins, draft the OL the dolphins plan on drafting, and hold him hostage til Miami allows Dion to come home! E true Hollywood story
Re: Kelvin Benjamin v. Beckham and Cooks and Robinson
A few years ago, Football outsiders came up with a formula for projecting a RB’s success in the NFL based on his pre-draft 40 time and weight. (This is FO’s theory, not mine.)
Here’s a discussion.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/27/sports/football/27score.html?_r=0
Don’t know if FO came up with a similar formula for WRs.
But using the weight/speed equation for RBs, Benjamin — based on his Combine results — projects better, albeit by 2-3 percent, than receivers like A-Rob, OBjr, and BC. That’s using A-Rob’s Pro Day numbers, too, I believe.
RB is a very different position than WR in today’s NFL.
(Not so much back in the ’60s when, for example, the 1964 draft produced two HOF WRs — Paul Warfield and Charlie Taylor — who both played RB in college.)
But this formula at least puts a WR’s weight and speed in some context versus bigger and smaller players at the same position.
Is there any variable in that equation for having hands of stone?
WR is different that RB.
Noted in my comment.
I’m more focused on the mantra by some that Benjamin is not fast enough.
That’s all I’m looking at.
(On the videos at 24/7, some of the balls KB dropped were scary.)
Yeah, the 40 times from him really don’t worry me at all. The number on him that were really scary were all of the agility numbers that measured how fast he can change directions and such. I’m not sure how those are factored in the RB group, but Benjamin’s are brutal.
Read the NYTimes article.
In short, it says that — per Football Outsiders — the 40 is the key predictor of success. The agility-drill times are not useful, even though coaches have the opposite view. [Coaches should not be on the personnel side, I guess.]
That is really fascinating. I’ll have to give that a more in-depth look.
That’s putting it mildly. They’re horrendous.
To be fair, Benjamin weighs more than Evans. We saw how Robinson did at his pro day when he shed about 15 pounds. IMO, Evans has a better lower-body and only slightly better upper-body. If either players bust, I think Benjamin would transition easier to TE.
No variable for RBs’ vision either. But apparently, FO believes its a fair predictor.
That’s FO’s story and they’re stickin’ to it.
FURTHER NOTE:
Applying FO’s formula to Mike Evans, he is only 2 points better than Benjamin.
For the some historical comparison . . . Calvin Johnson’s Combine numbers put him 31 points ahead of Evans.
Now that’s context.
Don’t think Jerry Rice had very good straight-line speed either.
Jerry Rice was not slow. He ran in the 4.4s as a prospect.
Same thing like how Tom Brady was not slow as a young player. In that case, the 5.22s was not actually representative. If it had, he would have never displaced Drew Bledsoe, in part because Bledsoe was a liability as a statue. Even for QBs, forty times matter. Tolerable speeds are way up there, but more than about 5.05 seconds, and people aren’t going to want to draft you or draft you high.
“Rice’s record-breaking season at Mississippi Valley caught the attention of many NFL scouts, but his speed (reportedly only 4.692 in the 40-yard dash)…”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Rice
Or, from the man himself:
“”No way. It was like 4.5,” Rice said.”
http://www.sfgate.com/raiders/article/History-points-to-speed-over-TDs-3164091.php
Darren McFadden wasn’t particularly successful, essentially because he didn’t have the hips he had to have, if he wanted to manage his height. I wonder if he shouldn’t have been a QB–strong arm? good hands?
All of these guys who are invited to the combine, are filtered through tape, so most fast or big guys who aren’t that good aren’t included. So if you filter for skill, the obviously the more physically talented people of the same skill level are going to be the best prospects.
That being said, forty times (with good splits) are pretty key here, if you want a difference maker at RB. More so than weight. Good RBs affect the game by being a viable big play threat. Mike Tolbert can have all the fans he wants, but because he doesn’t have the speed of Marshawn Lynch, he can never be a real star at RB.
Looked at through these lens, you can see how this is just not that true for WR. Forty times are important here, but there is far more space above 4.45 seconds before the guy is just too slow. One WR can beast at 4.55 seconds, while Toby Gerhart can only be a pedestrian starting caliber RB with the same speed and weight. Also, of course, people who can’t catch seems to be way overdrafted all the time. It’s one thing to be an inconsistent catcher, like Bebe Thomas or Terrelle Owens, but it’s quite another to not have a natural feel for it like Troy Williamson, Darius Heyward-Bey, Stephen Hill. I also imagine that quickness and agility drills have heightened importance for WRs compared to RBs.
S8:
Of course you’re right. McFadden’s numbers speak for themselves.
But this was Football Outsider’s thing back in 2008. Don’t know if FO stands by it anymore.
I’m just looking for a way to put in perspective the speed of a big WR vs. a lighter WR.
Do you think the formula — forget success — is a fair way to compare skill-position players for speed in a football setting?
___________
Good stuff, by the way. Very good.
Re: Paging D3FB (and former college room/team-mate D3Center)
Seems a player’s 40 time — I’m thinking of Kelvin Benjamin at the moment — is as much about technique over the first 10 yards as anything. At least, good technique could be worth as much as a .1 reduction over the full distance.
How important is the first 10 yards to a WR in running his route? Generally, he’s running under control, right?
If we’re talking a 9 route against press or bump-and-run coverage, what’s more important . . . the first 10 yards or the last 25 yards?
Benjamin’s a big guy. I assume, the laws of inertia being what they are, he takes longer to get to top speed than Brandon Cooks.
But what about after 15 yards on a go-route?
Just curious what your thoughts are on making sense of how the 40, when broken into segments and factoring in technique, offers a useful predictor to personnel folks.
Compare with this man:
http://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?i=6496
Here is Stephen White (former DE for the Bucs and Jets, who was the sixth round choice by the Eagles in 96, but never made the roster) who does a great series of breakdowns for SBN take on Benjamins speed:
“Well, what about a guy who is also 6’5, 240 pounds with good top-end speed and pretty good hands? That’s what you get with Kelvin Benjamin.Where he differs the most from Megatron is Benjamin, with a 4.61 40 time, is slower than Johnson. What you see watching the games is that Benjamin is slow at the beginning of the route, but once he got a head of steam, he ran by cornerbacks on a regular basis.That got me thinking. I went back to look up Benjamin’s 10-yard split for his 40 time. Sure enough, it was a slow 1.66. For perspective, Sammy Watkins’ 10-yard split was 1.53; Mike Evans’ split was 1.60. Jarvis Landry had a slightly better 1.65 split, but ended up with a slower 4.77 time for his 40. The fact that Benjamin was still able to run a 4.61 also confirmed to me that once he gets rolling, he eats up ground like Rick Ross on some lemon pepper wings.”
White is a fan of Benjamin, I personally am not. To me the first 10 yards are the most important. The ability to eat up any cushion the defender has is vital. If you can get the corner to open his hips and come out of his backpedal, you immediately have won the route on: ins, outs, comebacks, double moves, slants. The only time his speed coming in the last 25 helps would be on post, flags and go routes. Corners in the NFL will keep him from hitting his full stride, they are far more adapt at using the sideline as a defender, bump and run, forcing a receiver to “weave” his route. All these things will keep Benjamin from reaching his top gear most of the time.
To think of it another way: If a car doesn’t accelerate from 0-60mph well, and takes a long time to get to 100mph, well I frankly don’t care how well it goes from 60-100, passing on the highway isn’t that hard.
All Benjamin has to do is *do well enough* at the basic WR stuff, though. And eat off of mistakes where he can use his long speed otherwise, and he’d still be an extremely useful No2 receiver. Provided that good enough wiggle and good enough hands ever show.
For the shorter routes he uses his size to get open.
Im a ben fan, with him, cooper,ertz, celek on the field we will be dominate running the ball and in the red zone and still a major threat passing
Get defenses fearing that run and the blocking of the skill players but wait.. they can also throw it with those guys just as effectively. We will wear down defenses and man handle them
That is an interesting point. Are CBs less likely to jam receivers when there is a 50/50 chance that the receiver’s assignment is to block the CB? He would be playing right into the offense’s hands, so to speak.
Well there are two ways the receiver could choose to deal with this. One you engage with the corner immediately, and hope to lock him up. The pros are you don’t have to worry about stalk blocking him down the field, the cons are a good corner will either get off the block or take the outside shoulder of the receiver and force the runner back inside.
The other option is to try to “run him off”. You try to get him to turn and run with you and turn his back to the play before he reads run motion. You hope to get him 10,15,20 yards down field before he notices. The downside to this is the corner is oftentimes in trail technique so when he does smell a rat, you are no longer between him and the ball carrier.
Off man coverage leaves the defense very exposed when the QB scrambles and runs, also if the receiver does block your corner, he’s now blocking him 10 yards down the field.. Zone coverage allows for the best ability to defend the run by the secondary as they should all be facing the LOS at all times.
Here`s an idea; what about the big 6`5“ man just knock the smaller CB flat on the ground? That`s what bigger offensive players are supposed to do to smaller defensive players. If it`s a pass play ,do it w/in the 5 yrd limit. If it`s a run, do it whereever they meet.
Yea I mean why don’t 6’6 330lbs OT’s just knock those smaller DE’s on the ground every play? I mean they are bigger right?
Those situations are a little different cause of the proximity and positioning of the players.But I also do wonder why , with the size advantage(and with it,strength), that those extremely large players are not able to dominate, on almost every play. Must have to do with coaching, conditioning, leverage, speed, agility, maybe even attidude…the nasty factor.
This is chock full of good information. From it, is it correct to infer that a corner would be more likely to give a receiver a clean release when playing against a team that runs a lot and stresses WR blocking?
If a CB is in press? Against a run heavy team he would most likely try to jam as he would get the extra half second to peak in the backfield. Seattle isn’t going to play say Carolina and suddenly decide to play Tampa 2 because they feel it gives them an advantage. For teams that are more multiple on defense, really it’s just about mixing it up and keeping the OC from guessing what you are going to call. I personally would play cover 3, while mixing in both off and press man.
Interesting, thanks. I love coming here for stuff like this. I enjoy the games so much more as I get more things to watch.
Im not a super fan of Benjamin (get him in 3rd and I have no problems), but that break down got me to watch him again and I still do not like him, but can see why people like him.
Round 1 Pick 32 (SEA): Allen Robinson, WR, Penn State (A-)
Round 2 Pick 22: Deone Bucannon, SS, Washington State (A-)
Round 2 Pick 32 (SEA): Marcus Smith, DE, Louisville (A-)
Round 3 Pick 22: Stanley Jean-Baptiste, CB, Nebraska (A)
Round 4 Pick 22: Shayne Skov, ILB, Stanford (A)
Round 4 Pick 32 (SEA): Antone Exum, CB, Virginia Tech (B)
Round 5 Pick 22: Brandon Coleman, WR, Rutgers (A)
Round 7 Pick 22: Logan Thomas, QB, Virginia Tech (B-)
Here’s my daily draft submission. Tried to infuse talent everywhere on defense. Enjoy.
well thats not bad, if thats what we got, i d be excited. Allen robinson would be dope.. and to get coleman in the 5gth? that would be niice as well…
Personally not a fan of the Robinson pick, SJB, Skov, Exum (health) and Coleman pick
So, my whole draft 🙁
Simply put, Dont expect an early CB. Just dont see the need and i see WR after WR thats better then the CBs…
Next year we might have Nolan Caroll and Boykin as only CBs, we already need 1 now, in 1 year we need at least 2
Carey Williams will still be under contract next year.. right now we need ZERO CBs… fletch is a FA after this season..
Just watch Allen Robinson tape for the first time and my pants got real tight. Playing at 220, 208 or somewhere in between, sign me up for this kid in the first. I also am a big fan of Odell.
The SBJ tape was more impressive than the last one, I thought. He got to press more and looked better doing it.
Breeland was fun to watch. No hesitation at all about throwing his body around. Good tight coverage throughout. He didn’t get challenged deep, though.
And finally, Dennard shows why he is the top prospect of the three. I recommend watching that one last. The other two will be much less enjoyable after that one.
You’ll enjoy these
http://draftbreakdown.com/video/kyle-fuller-vs-alabama-2013/
http://draftbreakdown.com/video/kyle-fuller-vs-georgia-tech-2013/
Lots of Benji conversation. My thought on these WRs is i’m ok with all of them if drafted at the right spot. Benji is what he is — deep ball / jump ball and redzone. It’s unclear to me whether he can run routes and how effective he’d be — his agility stats are pretty terrible comparatively — so for that reason i don’t like him as much as guys that run routes. While you can’t teach size lots of big guys don’t make it in the league.
He seems to have good hands, i’d be fine with him if he wasn’t just a better Riley Cooper. I don’t think Cooper is anything special as a route runner, I do think Kelly wants interchangeable pieces — guys that can run routes and block, etc. But maybe we have Maclin / Sproles as route runners and Benji / Coop on outside? All that said I love evans — maybe there’s not much difference…