Full Circle

Posted: June 21st, 2016 | Author: | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 65 Comments »

Back in 2003 I was a very serious Eagles fan, but I didn’t do any writing. I had thought about starting a website, although that was more to write about the draft than the Eagles. It never really occurred to me that I would have people who wanted to know my thoughts on the Eagles. The draft was a different story. There were no internet videos back then. I taped games relentlessly and then studied them and wrote notes on hundreds of prospects. I didn’t post them anywhere, but that was okay. I did it for my own curiosity and then shared my thoughts with other football fans that I talked to.

The Eagles had a pair of top free agents in the 2003 offseason, DE Hugh Douglas and OLB Shawn Barber. I did not want the team to lose either guy. Hugh was one of my favorite players. He was a terrific DE and also had a great personality. Hugh made football fun. He was easily the team’s top pass rusher so it was critical to keep him. Barber was coming off his only season as an Eagle and had been a stud at WLB. He was fast and made plays, just what you want from that position.

I lived in NC (as I still do) and there wasn’t a lot of news on the status of Douglas and Barber as we headed to free agency. I was desperate to get some info. It occurred to me that Philly radio and TV might have some good rumors so I decided to join the Eagles Message Board. Surely some die-hard fans would be willing to share nuggets with those of us long distance fans.

As I read various threads looking for my info, I noticed questions from other fans that I knew the answer to. I began answering questions. I went back the next day and answered more. And more the next day. It wasn’t too much longer before I began starting threads on free agency and the draft. That’s how I began writing about the Eagles. The person most responsible for that is Hugh Douglas. And that makes this so funny.

Hugh is referring to a piece I wrote for PE.com on the Top 10 DL of the past 30 years. The Fletcher Cox contract extension got all of us to thinking about where he currently stood among the best Eagles D-linemen and where he might finish.

Here is my Top 10

1. Reggie White
2. Jerome Brown
3. Clyde Simmons
4. Trent Cole
5. Fletcher Cox
6. Corey Simon
7. William Fuller
8. Hugh Douglas
9. Andy Harmon
10. Hollis Thomas

I wrote out some thoughts in the piece. I’ll share some more here.

The top two guys are obvious. Go read the piece for my thoughts on them. Things get tricky after that. You have to understand that all of these players are really good. The Eagles have had a lot of good DL over the years.

I went with Simmons #3 because he was so good from 1989-1992. He started all 64 games and had 55 sacks in that span. The defense was outstanding in those years, including the amazing 1991 season. Simmons played for the Eagles for 8 years and had 76 sacks in his career, which is 3rd all time in team history. Simmons also made some crazy plays. He picked off 2 passes and scored 4 TDs with the Eagles.

Cole was next on the list. If we’re going strictly on talent, Cole shouldn’t be this high. Hugh was more talented. Cole got ranked that high for a couple of reasons. First, he played 10 years and I do think longevity counts when doing these rankings. Cole started 145 games for the Eagles and was a rock for the DL. Every week you knew #58 would be the RDE and would play as if his life depended on it. He had 85.5 sacks in his Eagles career, second only to Reggie in team history.

I also went with Cole that high because he was a terrific run defender. He was tough when run plays came at him and relentless in chasing the ball when plays went away from him. Hugh was a good run defender in his own right, but Cole was outstanding.

Corey Simon at #6 is the ranking I’m sure that most find questionable so let’s talk about this. I am not a fan of Corey Simon the person. The Eagles put the franchise tag on him after the 2004 season. It became evident he wasn’t coming back so the Eagles negotiated a trade with the Ravens. The Eagles would get a 2nd and 3rd round pick in return. That was exciting news. Unfortunately Simon would not agree to a deal with the Ravens (who were offering good money) so the trade was off. Other teams wouldn’t bite so the Eagles rescinded the tag and Simon signed with the Colts.

Jerk.

It is easy to focus on the nasty end with Simon and forget how good he was early on. Simon was drafted 6th overall in 2000 and that wasn’t an accident. He was a dominant player at Florida State. I was ecstatic when the Eagles took him. The DL needed a stud in the middle. Hollis Thomas was a good run defender, but a limited playmaker. Simon had the quickness to get off the ball and make plays in the backfield.

As a rookie, Simon had 9.5 sacks and 2 FFs. Jerome Brown’s best season…10.5 sacks, no FFs. In fact, Brown never had a FF in his career, which amazes me with how disruptive he was. Don’t look at the stats and think I’m saying Simon was as good as Brown. I just want you to realize how good Simon was at one point. In his second year, he had 7.5 sacks and 4 FFs. That’s a big FF total for a DT.

I didn’t rely solely on memories when compiling this list. I went back and watched old games to make sure I was fair to all the players. I forgot just how quick and disruptive Simon was at his peak. I think one thing that hurt Simon was the emergence of Darwin Walker in 2002. The problem is that both Simon and Walker were best suited at 3-technique. Neither guy liked doing the dirty work of taking on double teams. Simon was at his best playing beside Hollis Thomas, who was a NT.

In the wild card game vs Tampa after the 2000 season, John Madden talked about how Simon was going to be a “special DT” and great player. Simon was quick, athletic and disruptive. He was in excellent shape and looked worlds different from the guy who played in the Super Bowl. Simon of 2000-01 was a terrific DT. Instead of building on that and becoming a great player, he flat-lined. He was a good starter for all 5 years, but he never became what was expected.

Simon started 78 of 80 games for the Eagles. The team was Top 10 in scoring defense in each of those years and Top 10 in yards allowed in 4 of the 5 seasons. Simon racked up 32 sacks and 8 FFs, both excellent totals for a DT. Simon went to one Pro Bowl and was considered one of the best DTs in the league in each of those seasons.

While he didn’t turn out to be the great player we expected, Simon was a good player for the Eagles. He was outstanding early on and a big reason the Eagles defense was so good from 2000-2004.

William Fuller is one of my favorite Eagles. He wasn’t huge or a great athlete, but was a tough, productive player from 1994-1996. He played with a lot of different linemen in 3 years.

Greg Townsend
Refrigerator Perry
Burt Grossman
Leonard Renfro
Mike Mamula
Rhett Hall
Kevin Johnson
Ronnie Dixon
Daniel Stubbs
Hollis Thomas
Greg Jefferson
Darrion Conner

Andy Harmon started in 1994 and 1995, but was hurt in 1996. Despite playing with that interesting cast of characters, the Eagles finished Top 5 in the league in defense each year and Fuller was a key reason. He had 35.5 sacks and 12 FFs in that span. He also was the foundation of the run defense, by anchoring against TEs and RTs on a regular basis. Fuller was a Pro Bowl player in each of his seasons as an Eagle. The only downside to him is a lack of longevity.

I have Hugh in the #8 spot. You can easily make an argument for him to go higher. He was an excellent pass rusher. I loved the fact he used to get down in a 4-point stance. So many guys wanted to get in a track stance. Hugh squatted down and then exploded at the snap. It made him fun to watch because he wasn’t just a cookie cutter player. He was Hugh. And very good. He went to the Pro Bowl from 2000-2002 and had 37 sacks in that span. Hugh never had a stud pass rusher on the opposite side of him. Simon pushed the pocket up the middle, but the Eagles weren’t loaded with pass rushers aside from them.

Harmon was a terrific interior pass rusher. He was 6-4, 280, which is an unusual build for a DT. Harmon played DE in college and was drafted to be a DE. He wasn’t a stout run defender, but was an active, disruptive DT. Harmon has more sacks than any DT in Eagles history with 39.5.

I went with Thomas to round out the list. He is the only guy here who was primarily a run defender. You could make an argument that Mike Patterson should have this spot, but I went with Thomas since he showed the ability to make some plays and be a run stuffer. Thomas came into the league about 310 pounds. He was slightly bigger than than when he played his final season with the Eagles in 2005. Early on, Thomas had some quickness and could make plays.

The key thing to remember in this discussion is that there is no right and wrong. Reggie and Jerome are the top two. After that, you can make a lot of different arguments based on how you look at things.

The biggest takeaway for me is that we’ve been very lucky over the years. The Eagles have had a lot of outstanding DL. I can’t wait to see this year’s group and how they play in the 4-3. Should be a lot of fun.

Oh…and some good news. Hugh won’t be hunting me down.

_

65 Comments on “Full Circle”

  1. 1 Full Circle - said at 12:09 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    […] Tommy Lawlor Back in 2003 I was a very serious Eagles fan, but I didn’t do any writing. I had thought […]

  2. 2 ICDogg said at 12:57 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    That’s pretty cool.

  3. 3 FairOaks said at 2:48 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    Very cool. There are definitely arguments for who should be ranked 3-8… but I would agree with Douglas to a point — I’d put him above Simon and Fuller for sure. He had 44.5 sacks as an Eagle, and a longer tenure / peak than those two. Much harder to put him above Cole, mostly based on longevity as an Eagle. But if you are going to give Cole credit for longevity and effort, you have to put Hugh over Simon on both counts as well.

    Simon had terrific talent, but the last season or two he was never in shape to start the season and had to work himself into shape during the year. That last summer he had bloated weightwise and was nowhere near worth a franchise tag, as he was no longer a pass rush threat. There was probably something medical going on; he played one season (no sacks) in Indy, spent another on IR, and retired after a comeback attempt a couple years later due to polyarthritis.

  4. 4 Eagles News: Philadelphia turned down a future first round pick in order to draft Fletcher Cox ‹ King James said at 7:05 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    […] Full Circle – Iggles BlitzCole was next on the list. If we’re going strictly on talent, Cole shouldn’t be this high. Hugh was more talented. Cole got ranked that high for a couple of reasons. First, he played 10 years and I do think longevity counts when doing these rankings. Cole started 145 games for the Eagles and was a rock for the DL. Every week you knew #58 would be the RDE and would play as if his life depended on it. He had 85.5 sacks in his Eagles career, second only to Reggie in team history. I also went with Cole that high because he was a terrific run defender. He was tough when run plays came at him and relentless in chasing the ball when plays went away from him. Hugh was a good run defender in his own right, but Cole was outstanding. […]

  5. 5 Cafone said at 7:24 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    I thought Patterson might make the list.

  6. 6 eagleyankfan said at 7:29 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    So I wasted a tweet to Hugh giving him T-Laws address. Oh well….No mention of Golic. Thank goodness…rightfully treated as the redheaded step child…

  7. 7 Media Mike said at 7:41 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    Mike Pitts > Mike Golic

  8. 8 MattE said at 8:46 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    Top-10 Ex-Eagles TV Personalities:
    1) Herm Edwards
    2) Herm Edwards
    3) Herm Edwards
    4) Herm Edwards
    5) Herm Edwards
    6) Herm Edwards
    7) Herm Edwards
    8) Herm Edwards
    9) Golic
    10) Jaws

  9. 9 Media Mike said at 8:51 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    You’re very disrespectful.

    https://soundofphilly.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/brian-dawkins-2.jpg

  10. 10 MattE said at 8:56 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    ^^^^fixed, phew. good catch. But i still think of Dawkins as active in the sense that he could most likely beat the sh*t out of Father-Time himself.

    ….howeva, i just LOVE Herm on TV.

  11. 11 Bert's Bells said at 11:12 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    Did you see the bit when they asked him about fantasy football and he couldn’t wrap his head around the #2 RB being more important than the QB? Hilarious.

  12. 12 MattE said at 11:37 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    who Herm? I don’t see Herm being a numbers guy lol

  13. 13 Bert's Bells said at 12:48 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    Herm, yes. He is definitely not a fantasy football guy.

  14. 14 Ryan Rambo said at 3:17 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    Arm Pits > Mike Golic

  15. 15 Media Mike said at 7:41 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    Hugh Douglas has a lot of jokes for a guy who didn’t play hard in the Super Bowl.

  16. 16 A_T_G said at 7:57 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    Did anyone forward Hugh’s tweet to Simon and Cole?

  17. 17 D3FB said at 8:36 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    Pandemonium will ensue next week when Donnie Jones gets his heart broken after Tommy ranks Sav Rocca ahead of him in the “Best Eagles Punters of the Last 30 years” article.

    Sorry Donnie, Sav brings the pain!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYyOvoolACo

  18. 18 MattE said at 8:51 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    We need a Top-10 Hits List, i.e. S. Brown/R. Bush, C. Bednarik/F. Gifford, etc.

  19. 19 Media Mike said at 9:43 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    1 – Bednarik on Gifford
    2 – Keith Byars on Pepper Johnson

  20. 20 Bert's Bells said at 11:10 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    Dawkins/Crumpler

  21. 21 Media Mike said at 11:13 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    Epic

  22. 22 MattE said at 11:43 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    who did dawkins suplex?

  23. 23 Media Mike said at 11:51 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    Santana Moss or Laver-eous Coles I think.

  24. 24 FairOaks said at 2:45 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    Who didn’t he?

  25. 25 Gian GEAGLE said at 3:15 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    It looked like Kevin Randleman suplexing the best fighter to ever walk this plant (Fedor Emelienenko), dropping him on his neck…

  26. 26 P_P_K said at 4:09 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    That was awesome.

  27. 27 Media Mike said at 4:15 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    The other great Dawkins hit that comes to mind is when he terminated Ike Hilliard mid-air.

  28. 28 Froogal Stoodent said at 11:23 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    This one! 🙂

  29. 29 D3FB said at 11:48 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    Sheldon on Reggie Bush.

  30. 30 Media Mike said at 11:51 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    Amazing hit, but it can’t be top two because it didn’t knock out some d-bag POS New Yorker

  31. 31 Ben said at 12:12 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TYZ7YQWup4

    Yes, this was a memorable hit for sure !!!

  32. 32 P_P_K said at 4:09 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    Wasn’t that hit on the cover of SI?

  33. 33 Froogal Stoodent said at 11:22 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    Yep.

  34. 34 A_T_G said at 8:24 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    Cardboard box.

  35. 35 A**neck said at 1:16 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    Wes Hopkins/Everybody

  36. 36 Media Mike said at 2:43 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    House of pain game. Classic.

  37. 37 Eagle Talon said at 10:17 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    Andre Waters ( the Original #20) on just about anyone.

  38. 38 Media Mike said at 10:37 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    Shame it wasn’t on Dan Dierdorf in the MNF booth for talking shit.

  39. 39 Mark F said at 1:44 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    Murderleg

  40. 40 Tumtum said at 2:32 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    He can take a mean hit too!

  41. 41 Deep Release said at 9:11 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    Ahhh… the ol’ EMB!! Good times… good memories!

    – Drinkin’ at the Lincoln

  42. 42 ChoTime said at 11:15 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    Cool to interact with Hugh. I would have said he lost 2 spots because of getting his a$$ kicked by TO 🙂

  43. 43 BobSmith77 said at 2:28 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    Takedown Owens. 2 pts.

  44. 44 P_P_K said at 4:09 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    If you know a takedown is 2 points, you must have wrestled.

  45. 45 Sean Stott said at 7:21 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    next time you mention wrestling please include a trigger warning.

    I just got flashbacks of exercising in a 100*F gym in sweatpants and a sweatshirt, against people way above my weight class (103/112), 3 hours a day, even on Fridays. Then when you were an ounce over the day of the tournament, you were spitting in a cup and jump roping in the steamed shower rooms, hoping an urge to poop hits you.

    Oh god…

  46. 46 P_P_K said at 7:34 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    We wore those old “rubber suits,” made of heavy nylon or something, and worked out in the steamy showers to sweat. Oh yea, I can still taste the chewing gum version of Exlax.

  47. 47 Eagles News: Philadelphia turned down a future first round pick in order to draft Fletcher Cox | NFL Feeds To The Fans said at 11:53 AM on June 21st, 2016:

    […] Full Circle – Iggles BlitzCole was next on the list. If we’re going strictly on talent, Cole shouldn’t be this high. Hugh was more talented. Cole got ranked that high for a couple of reasons. First, he played 10 years and I do think longevity counts when doing these rankings. Cole started 145 games for the Eagles and was a rock for the DL. Every week you knew #58 would be the RDE and would play as if his life depended on it. He had 85.5 sacks in his Eagles career, second only to Reggie in team history. I also went with Cole that high because he was a terrific run defender. He was tough when run plays came at him and relentless in chasing the ball when plays went away from him. Hugh was a good run defender in his own right, but Cole was outstanding. […]

  48. 48 Ben said at 12:09 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    For a few minutes I was thinking Hugh was going to go full on Warren Sapp on Tommy, and then got to the end where he admitted he was joking.
    Thank god, as one Woron is too many.

    Also, I can’t wait to see Cox rumbling up the list after he is unleashed this season.
    I would hope that Cox can get into one of the top three spots when it’s all said and done.

  49. 49 BobSmith77 said at 2:27 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    Glad to see you did this list Tommy and that Hugh Douglas won’t drive up to NC from Atlanta to try to fight you.

  50. 50 Tumtum said at 2:31 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    Interesting you joined the EMB around about the same time I did. By the time I found your stuff it felt like you had been around since the beginning of time. I actually used to just search your posts for all the good nuggets.

    I miss EMB.

  51. 51 P_P_K said at 4:08 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    I would go on EMB just to read his posts. But I’m blanking on your user name, T-Law.

  52. 52 ChoTime said at 5:13 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    Wasn’t it goeagles99 or something?

  53. 53 P_P_K said at 7:36 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    Sounds right. I think Tommy had more than one name during his time there. Then we had something like Eagles Blog, Iggles Blog, Iggles Blitz. Lawlor has more bookmarks on my computer than anyone.

  54. 54 Tumtum said at 7:28 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    Deleted cho has it

  55. 55 BobSmith77 said at 2:32 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    I’d rank Cox lower simply because it is still really about his potential and what you expect him to do.

    Cole was one of my favorite players here because he was always played hard week in week out. The issue is that given his size he wore down considerably as the season went on. Reminded me a lot of Utley in that regard – led by example on the field, quiet off of it; not a show boater on the field; almost played to hard & inevitably wore down as the season went on (Cole’s sacks/ability to rush the passer and Utley’s power numbers)

  56. 56 unhinged said at 4:25 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    This is subjective territory, but I would defy anyone to explain or show evidence for putting any of the players TL ranked below Cox, higher than him. You may expect much more from him than he has shown thus far, but I am sold on the dude. He’s Buddy Ryan material. I liked Cole a lot, but a good number of TC’s sacks came on blitzes, which work against him in a straight-up comparison. This is no slight on Curry or Graham, but if TC and Cox were in their primes together, the havoc that DL could create is a beautiful thing to ponder.

  57. 57 Dude said at 10:45 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    I remember Utley putting up some numbers in October of ’08.

    I was a huge Utley fan. I loved him, Howard, Chooch, JRoll, Werth, the whole gang. I know I will get hated to death over this, but there is no doubt in my mind that steroids played a big role in that ’08 WS title. Howard, Utley, and Chooch putting up career numbers, then suddenly… POOF, the numbers are gone. Chooch is the only one that got busted, but Utley and Howard started getting those chronic injuries that are associated with steroid use. I’ll even go a step further, put on my tinfiol hat, and say that MLB knew about Utley and Howard. They let them go, and just busted Chooch, because they were two of the biggest stars in MLB at the time.

    Or maybe I’m full of shit. Maybe.

  58. 58 Dave said at 3:42 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    Tommy, I remember having some banter with you on the EMB. It’s funny, I haven’t been on there in over a decade, but my username and password still worked. When I looked up my account, I found a message in my inbox from you in 2004 when I ripped on an inflammatory article from ProFootballTalk.

    Rereading my message response, it’s funny now how much I respected the journalists in 2004. Twelve years later, sports journalism based on fact-checking, interviews, and research, has has given way to statistical fallacies, agenda-driven opinions presented as facts, and click-bait journalizm.

  59. 59 Bert's Bells said at 5:12 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    If New England can do it, so can the Eagles!

  60. 60 Dave said at 5:21 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    I was always an optimist.

  61. 61 A_T_G said at 8:26 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    Another great read. I gotta say, you are killing it this offseason, Tommy.

  62. 62 Dave said at 9:21 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    Dorenbos was awesome on TV tonight. The guy has so much charisma and talent.

  63. 63 Aaron said at 9:32 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    56th

  64. 64 Sean Stott said at 9:57 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    https://twitter.com/nbcagt/status/745421392644964353

    The sheer mechanical skill to do those tricks is insane. No wonder he’s a great long snapper.

  65. 65 Ark87 said at 10:31 PM on June 21st, 2016:

    Dorenbos is one of my favorite Eagles, such a crazy background story, and you hand the guy a camera and he will get you gold, used to love the little features he put together for the website or Eagles TV or w/e. Just a real unique guy that you’re happy is an Eagle.