What’s Going on at OG?
Posted: May 30th, 2015 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 216 Comments »Things have been awkward between Evan Mathis and the Eagles for about a year. He wants more money. The Eagles don’t feel he’s worth it.
Mathis was an afterthought when the Eagles signed him in July of 2011. He was signed to be the #3 OG (starters were Todd Herremans and Danny Watkins). Mathis was the backup LG in the first preseason game. Then he moved to backup RT for a game and back to the LG spot. Eventually Herremans was moved to RT (to replace Winston Justice/Austin Howard/Ryan Harris/King Dunlap). When that happened, Mathis took over at LG and he’s been there ever since.
Mathis is a good starting OG. PFF would have you believe he’s some kind of combination of Larry Allen, Randall McDaniel and Will Shields. As much as I like Mathis, he won’t be heading to Canton after his career. I don’t blame him for wanting the money. Football players have short careers. You have to strike while the iron is hot. The problem is that Mathis will turn 34 in November.
Aging OGs generally don’t get new deals from their current teams. And they rarely are in high demand by other teams. You can bet plenty of teams would like to have Mathis. The question is how many would want him at his current price of $5.5M, let alone at a higher price (which is what Mathis wants).
Initially I thought the Eagles would let Mathis and his agent look for another situation, with the understanding that if another team didn’t step up, he would remain an Eagle. Now I’m not so sure what is going on.
Former #Redskins RG Chris Chester to visit the #Falcons and #Eagles, per source.
— Adam Caplan (@caplannfl) May 29, 2015
Falcons signing Chris Chester to one-year, $2.8 million deal: The Atlanta Falcons are signing offensive guard … http://t.co/y1B0w6gAuB
— NationalFootballPost (@FootballPost) May 30, 2015
Chester is an athletic RG. The Eagles could have signed him and plugged him in at RG, letting Allen Barbre then take over at LG.
I don’t think Chester is the kid of player you sign for depth. He is 32. This is a guy you sign to be a starting OG for you.
I guess it is possible the Eagles could have signed him with the thought of he and Mathis being the starters, keeping Allen Barbre and Matt Tobin as the backups at OG/OT. I’m just not so sure what’s going on with Mathis and the Eagles. I am starting to think Mathis has played his last game as an Eagle. That’s just the vibe I’m getting. I don’t know anything for a fact.
I like Mathis as a player and as a person. I’d love to see things work out where he could finish his career as an Eagle. It doesn’t feel like that is going to happen.
There is no question that cutting or trading Mathis would weaken the OL. Obviously the coaching staff doesn’t see that as being as big a drop-off as you and I might. Maybe they felt Mathis started to show his age last year. We can only guess for now.
This is the time of year when teams are going to let go of veterans. There are going to be some effective starting OL hitting the market. It will be interesting to see if the Eagles pursue them or if Chester was an anomaly, a player the team really liked for some reason.
Stay tuned. This situation bears watching between now and September.
_
“if Chester was an anomaly, a player the team really liked for some reason.”
For some reason? Because he’s athletic and works well in a ZBS. Not too hard to divine.
I was referring to the combination of character, price, age, experience and other misc factors. Remember that Kelly can be picky about which players he likes.
Tommy, do you think it’s harder to evaluate which players Chip would want compared to the ones Andy would want because of all the criteria, or is it actually easier because having to check off so many boxes lowers the pool of candidates?
Tommy, below is a link of Jason Kelce on WIP on Thursday. He doesn’t sound real positive about Mathis, however he sees him being present at training camp.
If Mathis shows, would love to hear Chip’s first talk with him.
8:15 mark…
http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/audio/angelo-cataldi-and-the-morning-team/
Hypothetical: Chip – “So you are unhappy enough to hurt the team huh? As I have said many times before, we need committed players. Clean out your locker.”
Unfortunately, I have a sense this could be the outcome. I hope not, I like Mathis, at the same time, he seems like the last bad apple on the tree. And would accept such a move if his attitude is what it seems.
I think Mathis will come back cut like a beast and ready to go from the day training camp begins.
As an Eagle, he has never missed any mandatory events.
He knows he has Five Million reasons to come back and if he plays well he puts more reasons on film why he should be paid more.
To me, that sounds more logical of an ending to this story than what I’ve been reading.
I agree 100%. He’ll be in camp and he’ll play the season.
Who is the highest paid OG in the NFL? What is the average OG yearly salary? It seems Mathis is getting paid quite well but I have yet to see any comparisons.
According to this its Levitre, which is a terrible deal, and Mathis is 8th highest paid.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/cap-hit/guard/
That’s cap hit.
According to the same site Mathis is #3 in salary.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/base/guard/
According to the same, he is #10 in total cash outlay this year (of course a few guys have big signing bonuses, but for some others roster bonuses etc. push them higher), and #13 in average (though again, some of those guys won’t see the higher years where Mathis probably would have).
“There is no question that cutting or trading Mathis would weaken the OL. Obviously the coaching staff doesn’t see that as being as big a drop-off as you and I might.”
This is a huge problem. HUGE.
Best bet is to work out a Connor Barwin type deal with him. Maybe a very slight raise, give him some of his 2015 money immediately in the form of SB(with base salary reduced at the same rate) and guarantee some 2016 salary. Enough to toss him a bone but not give him any significant new money. I don’t personally like caving to re-negotiation demands but with our lack of depth and young players with potential, we need Mathis right now.
I wouldn’t even do that. Let him do his thing away from the team while it isn’t hurting anything, play/pay him as planned, and go about your business. Mathis hasn’t let his contract gripes diminish his level of play, so I’m good with having him back. I don’t think the Barwin situation applies here because we didn’t just sign an inferior player to Mathis to more guaranteed money in the same position group.
Yeah we don’t want to guarantee his contract 2016. Best case scenario is we draft a young OG early and then see if he is good enough to come in and start in TC and then you can cut Mathis at the end having paid nothing.
I’d just ride Mathis until his wheels fell off. Unless I see a diminished 2015, I don’t anticipate seeing a diminished 2016.
Or even better, Tobin shines taking one of the G spots indefinitely, Barbre becomes Herremans level and one of our UDFA shows alot of promise.
I think that’s best case scenario, and I really hope it works that way. If it pans out like that it allows us to go pass rusher in the first next year and get a G with one of our two third round picks.
Yes I do believe we need to draft a pass rusher high next year.
I wouldn’t guarantee more of his 2016 money. There is a good chance he may heavily decline in 2016.
I wouldn’t do anything contract wise untill you see what you have with Tobin, Barbre, the new UDFA’s, and Gardner in TC.
Besides the FO has the upper hand in this by far. He will lose ALOT of money for each day he misses in mandatory OTAs and TC. Apparently no team has tried to trade for him due to his age and salary. He knows that if he is cut another team won’t pay him what we are paying him. He really doesn’t have that much leverage.
Agreed. So let him sit out the non-mandatory stuff and then see what happens.
I really think that he will show up for TC. Him and Rosenhouse aren’t dumb. They know the money he will lose by skipping, and that he won’t get the same contract on another team. Especially at this point of the offseason.
Their play was to huff and puff hoping the Eagles would have paid more by now or that he would have been traded by now. Neither has happened. His stock around the NFL is clearly not as high as he thought. Him and Drew lost the game and now the best move for him in all aspects is to go to TC and join the team.
Connor Barwin was given an unexpected raise because he was awesome on and off the field. He never asked or expected it!
Mathis is acting the complete opposite. No Barwin deal for Mathis! Precedence.
Exactly right. CK wants to reward players who go above and beyond (on and off the field). Conner has done that, Mathis hasn’t.
That being said, I think Mathis will be a pro when he comes back for mandatory minicamp. Its business, not personal.
It would set a terrible precedent. You can’t do this, especially not for anyone other than a star player.
I’m sure from Mathis and his agent’s perspective, he is a star player.
From my mother’s perspective, I’m a star, too. That’s not how negotiations work, though.
At this point, Mathis gets NOTHING as far as Im concerned. no way should chip cave in to a 34yr olds bullshit request 4 months after becoming a GM
Kelly does not like Mathis’ attitude. Tough situation that could turn bad very quickly. Personally, I hope for the best but really expect the worse. Bummer.
If he hated it that much I think he would have nuked him off of the roster already. I don’t doubt they’d do something in the future, but we seem to be beyond the point to have anything anywhere near as good as Mathis on the field.
Doesn’t matter Mike. Attitude and commitment really matter. Otherwise, we might still have a certain WR.
I’m not intending to be confrontational. Just the facts from what I hear.
I get that you’re getting certain information from people, but this is no different than what Mathis did at the same time last year in terms of the cranky pants routine over the contract. Jackson was a one and gone with that business because they had a plan to match the production. I don’t think they can cover for not having Mathis this year.
But if the garbage continues going into mandatory camps, I can more see your point of view.
Mathis probably would have been cut already is was going to happen.. I don’t buy it, then again I don’t really care. I’ll be damned if I cry over a 34yr old…… chip had no problem getting rid of class act Todd Herremans and get nothing in return, yet mathis is still here… What’s chip waiting for? I dont believe it, like I dont believe the Mariota bullshit, but we’ll see
OD,I find your two posts together to portray Kelly in a light that I have yet to observe. I believe him when he says he wants to win, and I recall Mano’s player requirements: measurables, how he fits our system and character. A little slack is available on the latter if the first two are high. He said something like that. What I have yet to see is Kelly exert his authority merely to prove a point, and, if we all agree that Mathis is his best option, I haven’t seen Kelly cut off his nose to spite his face. Is Mathis’ absence from OTA’s really a distraction? Or is this a media-driven problem? Sure Kelly would prefer Mathis to be present, but how irked is he by his absence? Maybe I’m being naive, but if Kelly cuts Mathis and Sam is getting roughed up regularly because EM’s successor is green, that will reflect extremely negatively in the press and among fans, and I don’t for a second think Kelly cares too much about either party, but he has to answer to a very tolerant owner. When Jeffrey asks Chip, “How did that make us better?” I cannot see “locker room distraction” as a credible response.
I’d be curious to know if this situation would be any different had we added a mid round OLineman. When the Eagles passed on OLineman this year, I can imagine from Mathis’ perspective/his agents’ perspective that they figured they gained at least some leverage, making it more enticing to hold out a bit. Had we drafted someone, Mathis would have had much less leverage, at which point he may have been more inclined to show up.
If they had addressed O-line in the 3rd and taken Hicks in the 4th, we could be talking about a totally different scenario indeed.
If I knew TJ Clemmings was a healed up foot away from taking my job (or Chaz Green, Daryl Williams, Tre Jackson, or Arie Kouandjio), I’d be at work busting my butt.
Tobin and Barbre; not as worried by half.
Those three OL guys you listed aren’t ZBS fits.
I mentioned 5. Somebody had to fit! I just really don’t trust Tobin and Barbre.
Jackson, Williams, Arie.
Ok, so could we have used Clemmings or Green?
Clemmings foot is apparently going to fall off.
Also I think Green was a decent player, but he went way too early. He’s a nice primary backup at all OL spots but center. Like that’s his ceiling. He’s had health issues and didn’t have a ton of experience. He definetively wouldn’t have beat out Barbre or Tobin.
I will continue to repeat, the minute Morse, Fisher, Sambraillo all were taken in quick succession, there wasn’t an OL left who was going to start for this team this year.
Depressing. I don’t share your faith in the development of Tobin and Barbre has to demonstrate he has a desire to stay on the field. I’ll fully tip my cap to you on the matter if Tobin pans out, but I have major concerns about having enough quality on the o-line.
I need to know that we have five killers out there ready to start 80 combined games as unit this year.
On a side note, I may have told some folks on twitter the other day that Sambraillo is a better player than anybody on the Giants o-line during a discussion of worse injury Clady or Beatty.
Individual talent on the OL is perhaps the single most overrated factor in judging offensive line play.
There was always Collins! 🙂
Hicks would not have been available in the 4th.
Cincy “liked’ Hicks doesn’t move him up from a 4th / 5th guy based on the reporting going into the draft.
Who was reporting he was a 4th/5th? The games I watched he was a top 4th to the 3rd depending on what scheme you put him in. He has the mentality and enough physical skills to be a good player.
Every last mock draft that went that deep had Hicks going later than the 3rd. I didn’t see a single one with him in the first 3 rounds. That stuff about the Bengals taking him at the very next pick seems odd because they went ahead and took Paul Dawson with their comp pick at the end of the round. Dawson is a textbook Cincy (i.e. Burfict) guy anyway.
You know mocks are like 2% in the first round let alone the 3rd. Just like Clemmimgs was supposed to go in the first.
All of that being equal, I’d like him more a round later.
I would have too but he wasn’t going to be there.
But that can’t make me overpay for him. If I like a house that is worth $250,000, I’m not going to offer $300,000 for it because somebody else wants to offer $295,000
I don’t pay over assessed value.
I would, if it’s in a good safe neighborhood, with good schools and a nice front lawn with a hot milf across the street.
But your finances, or a team’s draft picks and/or salary cap space, are finite. So paying $300,000 for a $250,000 could leave you without the money to vacation, own a car, buy groceries, etc. Taking a 4th/5th round LB in the 3rd round has left you thinner than needed on the O-line.
So you want them to take someone they rated lower than Hicks, then lose him because he wasn’t available in the 4th? Makes no sense, they end up with someone rated lower than him just to not pay over “assessed” value.
Well, we got a 3rd for that 4th. So if it makes you feel better, you can say we got him for a 4th. 😉
Seems silly to be talking about mocks. Those things are a joke, especially for the later rounds. They are all about making headlines, no one making mocks is using team data or considering nearly as many factors as the teams have to do.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2015/profiles/jordan-hicks?id=2552315
http://walterfootball.com/draft2015OLB.php
He’s listed as 3rd to 5th round on Walter. I would have preferred to have paid on the bottom end of that range, not the top.
That’s the thing, it doesn’t matter what Walter says. At one point he had Ifo going on the first.
Ok, so Walter was wrong. And NFL.com as well?
And CBS had him @ # 124 overall.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/2015/OLB
I think that argument can be easily made, yes. I can totally see your point but I tnt think any OL would have been worth it there especially because they were more maulers than dancers.
I hear what you’re saying here, but I’m terrified that what we’ve got waiting at RG (and now maybe LG) is more turnstile than mauler / dancer.
The reporting going into this draft was shit. The report was that Cincy was about to take him. They weren’t just interested. They wanted him.
People are all over with him, however alot of teams recognize his talent. If it weren’t for constant injuries I think it’s possible he could have been widely recognized and agreed upon as a 3rd round pick.
For an example of how drastically different teams view prospects, there was an AFC scout that said his team didn’t even have Rowe on their board at all. They didn’t like his talent.
Add to the fact that you draft for what fits your scheme. We obviously like fast ILBs that can cover therefore we have Hicks rated higher then others. Other teams have other players rated higher then us.
Well I like getting more value for a lower pick, so I’d have preferred him in the 4th and think we overpaid by using a 3rd.
At that point his value was higher to the Eagles then other prospects. Look at his skill set and how well it projects to our D. It is similar to Alonso and Kendricks in ways. More similar to Alonso though.
Instead of ILB being a hole next year due to Kendricks departure there will be a young skilled ILB that has had a year to prepare there.
Simply due to skill fit his value was higher because alot of the OL didn’t have as good as a skill fit.
The draft isn’t just about talent, it’s about finding the talent that fits your scheme, which is what makes some players value higher then need picks or maybe picks that are slightly more talented.
Yes, we lack a 2nd round draft pick next because we overpaid in the Bradford / Foles deal.
I hope we’re not in a trend that scheme fit trumps market value in terms of what we pay for guys we want.
It was the money more than the pick that bothered me. But I have to say that at this point I see much more potential for 2015 with Bradford at the helm than Foles. The fact that the coaches felt the same only confirms my concerns over Foles. Love him as a #culture guy, but he is not wired for this offense.
How do you know we overpaid? We couldn’t get him any other way.
What if he lights it up next year. Did we overpay then? It’s only the most important position on the team
Kelly thinks he can be our franchise QB. That’s worth alot. We didn’t overpay.
This value thing that alot of fans have is just soooo wrong.
We were told when we traded McCoy for only Alonzo that part of what we “got back” was the cap space for losing Shady’s deal and that’s why we didn’t get a draft pick as well.
Why didn’t that apply for taking on Bradford’s money in giving up Foles?
Because what applies for 1 trade doesn’t mean it will apply for another.
We are talking about a potential franchise QB not a freaken RB. There are teams in this league that have been floundering around for years trying to get one.
Bills + franchise QB equals very good team.
Eagles + franchise QB equals very good team.
The list goes on. Who gives a flying fuck if you lost a 2nd round pick to get a potential franchise QB. You need a franchise QB in the league to win a SB.
This was the cheapest way to do it. How can people possibly argue about the value?
How much would it cost to get MM?
How much do you think a franchise QB cost? If it works it could boost us to true SB contenders.
We agree on something today.
Problem with the Draftnik process is they have no access to interviews or the work the players do in the film room and in private work outs. Players with very high ‘football IQ’ who do well in that setting get no +points, compared to a guy who runs 0.05 second faster 40, when in general the former is probably a bigger factor.
If the Eagles had him with a 2nd round grade, then i am very happy they drafted him where they did, there really where no players other than Clemmings (injuries were a factor – again draftniks have limited access) that i wanted there.
I mean Hicks has a 2nd round type body for an ILB, high character, work ethic and ‘IQ’. Questions are over health and ability to get off blocks but the Eagles are obviously ok with both.
I don’t care what round grade the Eagles had on him, the best available data indicates he was a 4th or 5th round player. If and when the NFL properly starts compelling teams to release their draft boards to the public after the draft, I’ll start using that data to assess a team’s ability to glean value from picks rather than the draftnicks assessment of it, but I 100% am not trusting a team’s spoken “we had him rated high” nonsense as equating to value until I see where the entire 32 league had a given guy stacked on their boards.
Well teams will never release draft boards, and frankly that still would prove nothing. Teams stack their boards based on their needs and scheme and individual fits. Sheppard according to draftnik’s should have been a 3/4th round pick but went in the 6th. The consensus best player in the draft goes pick no.6 this year.
Draftnik’s and to an extent Tommy are really fun and its a great way to get to know players and feel engaged in the process. But each team has dozens of scouts, they talk to coach’s, see practices, have medical access, do 1-1 interviews, private work outs. They have so much information that a guy who has watched 2-3 game tapes has no access to.
‘Getting Value’ in the 3-7th round is irrelevant to long term success. Getting the right players who can make your team better is all that is important. The Seahawks get crap draft grades every year for ‘reaching’ but they hit and hit and hit on their late round guys.
If the Eagles projected in their process that Hicks could be a quality starter in 2 years time, and the best OL on the board was a fringe starter/back up type, then drafting Hicks was a great pick.
And the Bengals (one of the better drafting teams in the NFL these days), were taking him the pick later – they had told media people they were going to take him if available there, and immediately traded out when we took the pick.
How do you know the Bengals saying that wasn’t purely done to keep teams from figuring out the Bengals preferred Paul Dawson, who they took at the end of that round?
And Seattle has earned the benefit of the doubt with their success. Until we have that level of success, I’m not taking a team’s comments about a guy’s value at face value. I just won’t. So again, until I have better data provided by teams I’ll keep going with the best available info to assess the extent to which a team maximized its ability to add the highest level of talent to its roster.
And if we didn’t have a clown car of players behind Mathis (who could be cut) at guard, I’d be less irked over the Hicks 3rd round / later round value deficit.
Well a lot of teams tell media guys who they plan to take on the prevision that they don’t say until the pick is made. This allows them to have little nuggets of information ready to support their pick. I think there were enough different sources saying it that there is a decent chance he goes the pick later.
I did not even have Hicks on my radar – did not focus on ILB’s after the Kiko trade. But having watched a couple of games, listened to him speak, compared his combine numbers he looks like a 3rd round pick to me if you are happy with his medical (which the Eagles obviously were).
going with ‘best available’ data often leads to incorrect conclusions, especially when there are people with significantly more data which will completely change the situation. (eg Clemmings medical situation)
I remember Da’Rick Rogers in 2013. People were calling him a fringe 1st guy, and he goes undrafted because we did not have access to important information.
I think you may be irked due to exaggerating the “clown car” of players. We have a solid OL. As long as we aren’t running a different combo of players out there every other game, we’ll be ok.
Maybe. But I have major ?s with the RG spot.
They have picked up enough players and had long enough to work with the others that at this point if no one is ready by September, I’d be concerned about the coaching staff. Either the talent eval or ability to coach players up would be lacking (or both). But it’s a long way until then.
I’ll wait 2-3 years to judge draft picks.
In terms of bust / not bust, I agree. But in terms of where you took them vs. where you could have taken them and other guys; that can be done now.
Huh? Why would/should teams release their draft boards?
Hicks was a solid pick. The blogosphere is not known for it’s overall IQ, not sure I would trust them anymore than the teams you mistrust. Clearly the Eagles have a very different template for evaluating injury risk and treatment. Pretty clear from the tape that Hicks would have been rated higher by most if it weren’t for his injuries. He’s an ideal pick for a team with short term depth, looking for longer term starters. Exactly the same as the OL, except he was rated higher than any lineman still on the board,.
Because the release of that data after the draft would give us all a better ability to judge reach / steal vs. everybody else’s board and what teams to praise vs. what teams to rip.
It’s discussions like these why I don’t even bother getting involved predraft. Danny Watkins was widely considered the best guard in his class, if not the best linemen. I remember one tv analyst saying he was going to make the pro bowl as a rookie.
I remember Tommy thinking the third round was high for Foles. The draft is such a crap shoot.
But your best available data pales in comparison to the available data that teams have at their disposal. You shouldn’t be so dismissive that they know things that you don’t. Doesn’t mean they’re right and doesn’t mean they’re wrong but they’re not looking at Walter Football and such.
Then they can feel free to publish it for view. If not, it’s unverified BS.
Good points, especially that we look for what fits our scheme. For a lot of positions on D, we are mainly competing with 5-8 other teams who are looking for similar skill sets.
He has no leverage.No team wants his contract. He is getting paid $5.5 million this year, Damn good money. Hope he has a good attitude if/when he returns.
Your assuming a mid-round rookie would be a better option than guys already on the roster and who know the offense and Kelly’s zone blocking.
Kelly isn’t starting a rookie on the O-line – unless they’re a freak like Johnson.
I agree with Tommy. Unfortunately I don’t see this ending well betwen him & the team. I can easily see him being outright released in the very near future.
I like Mathis a lot as an Eagle and he seemed like a nice enough guy. I was hoping he and the team could reach some agreement. I didn’t realize, until now, he is due to make $5.5m this year. That’s a lot of money for a 34 year-old player. Hell, that’s a lot of money for anyone.
I will never argue that anyone should decline whatever money his skills can provide. It may be ridiculous that athletes make more in one season what teachers can make it their career, but such is the free market and I’m ok with that. It’s hard to imagine a younger Evan, though, maybe in high school or college, thinking, “Golly, if I ever fulfill my dream of being in the NFL, I sure hope my career lasts so long that when I’m 34 years-old I can complain because $5,500,000 a season isn’t enough.”
I actually think he has a pretty low contract for a starting guard. Just had read that some where anyway.
You raise a good point. I did a quick search and found this: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/cap-hit/guard/
Someone more knowledgeable could delineate the difference between cap-hit and actual salary. If the link is near accurate, Mathis is doing pretty well for himself.
you are correct, that is the cap hit, but that factors in the bonus which was paid out prior (when contract signed).
this link is more reflective of the $ the player is actually seeing this year:
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/cash/guard/
Mathis still doing very, very well. Making $5.5M this year, as noted elsewhere on this thread, which is the same as Marshal Yanda (also in conversation for best OG in NFL).
Mathis is also literally the oldest starting G in the NFL. All of those guys ahead of him are also pro-bowl caliber, so it’s not as if chumps are making more than him. Aside from Iupati and Franklin (who just signed this year and is seeing most of the $ in his 1st year), players ranked 3 through 15 are all within $2.5M of each other.
Great stuff, KB, thanks.
http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2015/5/30/8692673/eagles-trade-rumors-evan-mathis-2015-nfl-draft-dolphins-lions-drew-rosenhaus-agent
i don’t know what’s going on at OG, but i do know that i just preordered Eagles Almanac!
but seriously i hope mathis comes back.
I’m fine with the Eagles not giving Mathis more $$, he has a contract that pays him very fairly. However, he is a very good player and therefore I want the Eagles and him to bury the hatchet and come to a resolution…this season is very important and weakening the OL would be a dumb move since it is linchpin for our offense…if Chip lets him go, again he better have a backup plan and it better work out. You can only change personnel so much in one year and not be impacted by it…
Well, yeah. Mathis is not obligated to show up until the last minicamp June 16-18. I anticipate that’s when he’ll show up. I anticipate this is annoying to Chip, but ultimately I think Mathis stays an Eagle for the year.
You give in to ransom demands once, then you’re going to get ransom demands from lots of people (and i cannot imagine Chip considering such a thing for even a second.) He fits an “athletic, downfield blocking” system only, had some issues last year, turns 34 in the season and i believe his $5.5 M becomes guaranteed on the first day of the season. Rosenhaus gets no new money unless Evan gets a new contract, even if it’s for less $$ than the current one. Evan could care less about Chip’s reaction, he’s got this year, maybe next year left anyhow, what are they going to do to him? High stakes play by Rosenhaus for a new cut, not really bright by Evan as his downside looks worse than his upside, but hey, maybe he gets lucky. Chip is probably figuring “if I cut him now, I’ll have to cut the next one who handles it this way. Make it stop here.”
This will end with the Eagles releasing Mathis who will sign with another team at a lower salary.
But, Rosenhaus got a cut of his Eagles contract and will get a cut of his new, smaller contract as well. So at least Rosenhaus will come out ahead.
Which is all Drew is thinking about… ever.
That’s not 100% fair. Any agent is concerned with the new contract, but they’re also thinking about the overall number (because it looks good to prospective clients).
Mathis is looking for a higher guarantee -maybe that means a lower salary this year but bigger signing bonus. So he pockets -say, 5 million bonus plus 2 million salary. That’s better for him and (theoretically) the team. Rosenhaus can negotiate a backloaded deal -say, 6 million in year 3. That would make it look like he got his client a 3 year/15 million deal -even though he’s not seeing a dime of that last year.
Now he go to potential clients and say “hey, I got this 33 year old OL this great deal.” And he can turn to another team and say “Look at the Mathis deal, that was for an old guy. This young guy should get twice as much.”
No doubt that Rosenhaus is a douche. But he’s just doing his job. He’s not acting against the interest of his client at all.
How does that in any way conflict with what Andy said?
It’s not fair to say that the only thing (“all”) Rosenhaus is thinking about is getting his cut of a new contract.
He’s concerned with several things -including doing what his client wants him to do.
Plus, the implication is that Rosenhaus is somehow more avaricious than other agents is not accurate. He’s no different than anybody else in his position.
Not exactly concerned with being fair to Drew Wreckmyhouse.
Blaming the agent gives the players and the owners a free pass. Any conflict is on those parties, not the agent.
Yes. Drew’s reputations is totally undeserved, and agents would never manipulate a client for their own gain.
What’s his reputation amongst players? You know, the only people who count. Do you think he should go around worrying what people think [son]?
And, no, agents don’t manipulate players for their own advantage.
The guy is a jerk, no question. He just happens to have a job where that’s a positive.
Personally I don’t feel any concern over Losing Mathis.. The impression I get is chips is taking the Vikings stance against AP, Mathis either plays for us or he plays for no one…hopefully it’s the stance chip takes… Make sure as soon as he becomes GM to set a precedent that we don’t negotiate with terrorist..
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And I don’t feel bad for mathis, chip talkng this stance is saving mathis from himself and the poor advice he is getting from Rosenhause (DIDNT we get rid of most of Rosenhause clients on our roster?).. If Mathis gets his way, he will get cut and the next team won’t pay him as much as his current salary. Every GM in the league knows he has no leverage.
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clearly NO ONE wants to trade for Evan and give him a raise, which is what you have to be willing to do to trade for him… Mathis better get it in his dumb head that he is t goingto make more then 5mil this year, but if he keeps this up, he could end up playing for a shitty team making a little more then half of his current contracted 5mil
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Chip be foolish to cut mathis, it hurts us and it will hurt Evan. Both parties will Lose…hopefully chip sets a precedent now, while protecting our OL and Mathis from his own stupidity,..dude is getting some poor advice. I understanding fighting to make more for your family.. But not to the point where he is risking the 5milliom he is set to make…. It has come to the point that He is crazy to think there is ANY chance of him making more then he is contracted to make… Only questions left are does he want to make less? And what team does he want to play for? I hear Oakland is beautiful this time of year…LOL
I think the interest in Chester was to make a point. I wanted to sign him, but oh well.
Think because we got no one in the draft when we were planning/expecting to, we will be watching the waver wire intently to see if there are any 1 year rentals we can bring in to compete to start or be a top backup.
I certainly hope so.
The same could be said if they drafted two offensive lineman…we have a big board of players who aren’t signed and we assign them all grades.. When a player is available who we have a solid grade on, we will have interest, regardless of how strong or weak we are at a position,… When a player gets waived, we scout him, put him on our board and assign him a grade… When a player is available who we have a positive grade on, We will have interest…
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Every year we will have our eye on the waiver wire..One mans trash is another mans treasure
Going to share something Fran Duffy tweeted out earlier today – is a round table discussion about ‘talent’, both in general and from an NFL perspective.
http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2015/05/30/rsp-roundtable-on-the-nature-of-talent-wdan-hatman-kyle-crabbs-sigmund-bloom/
It is a really interesting discussion and brings up some facinating thoughts and angles about how we misjudge what talent means and the factors need to allow it to translate.
For wee2424:
Don’t concentrate too much on the Maxwell signing. He was a starter and is replacing a starter. Most likely, he will at least be a decent starter. You seem to think he’ll be All-Star caliber. Well, he’s definitely being paid by it (see Winner’s Curse).
The main problem is not swapping two proven players, Williams and Maxwell, but rather that we are replacing two starters with unproven players, rookies and guys who’ve played in limited action and had never managed to win starting positions on other teams, and were let go by those teams. The odds of two unproven guys stepping up to be competent starters is low.
Thus, assuming Maxwell plays as well or better than Williams, but there are two liabilities at the other secondary positions, the secondary could decline as a whole.
Of course, if you assume Maxwell is the second coming of Darrelle Revis, that Rowe turns into Patrick Peterson II, that one of the other players learns how to play safety, then sure, we’ll be great!
But really, what is more likely?
The Football Outsiders ranking has nothing to do with name recognition, they have people who chart every single play, notebook in hand, and grade them according to situation (down/distance). The ranking is based on performance against the pass.
I’m going to reprint this on the main thread in case anyone else is interested.
I think Maxwell is a decent upgrade on what we had before, and while his contract seems rich – in 2 years time it will be pretty standard for an above average corner with the way the cap is growing and increasing (30% cap increase means that what used to be an $8mil player is now an $11mil one.)
I think it is entirely possible that the secondary is pretty similar to what we had in 2014 in total quality. However we knew that Williams is an average CB and that Fletcher was worse, and there was little to no chance of them significantly improving.
What we do have a chance that some of our guys ‘might’ be better. People forget to take into account a 2nd year Watkins and Reynolds and a ‘fitter’ Wolff (possibly) can take significant strides forward. We have 3 talented rookies who will give good depth and one might break out in camp. Thurmond is talented if he can stay healthy. Boykin is not battling injury. Jenkins and Carroll are year 2 in the system.
I have no confidence at this stage in saying any of these guys will be better than Fletcher and Allen, but there is a decent chance at least 1 or hopefully 2 can be better this year, and IF that happens we will be a better secondary unit. New DB coach with a good track record may be able to improve things as well.
I agree. We’re rolling the dice, and we could end up upgrading, or we could end up taking a step backwards. Keeping Fletcher, Williams and Allen would ensure continued mediocrity. I would be stoked to see Wolff live up to his flashes and Rowe or one of other dudes step up. If Maxwell becomes our Revis, I’ll buy a jersey.
It does annoy me when the hometowners assume the dice is going to come up 7 or 11 and shout down anyone who cautions against that assumption!
Your thoughts are pretty muddy or just your wording. I think what you mean is that Maxwell and Williams are a wash, and anyone else is a downgrade of Fletcher. I seemed to be the biggest promoter of Williams on this site, and I font think that is even close to true. I also think that you could throw any udfa OL at rcb and get better play than you go from Fletcher when it mattered last year. I seriously think whoever wins that job should be a significant upgrade.
FS on the other hand. Not looking so hot. Either way I think the defsene will get better everywhere else which will carry over.
I have been a Big Cary “C-Dub” Williams fan, and I think he will have a nice year playing next to a good safety in seattle… But he isn’t on Byroms Level… Fletcher on the other hand Isnt very good, and I doubt it will be hard for Carroll or Thurmond to provide an upgraded from Fletcher…
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Also don’t think it will be that hard for a young player to at least reach Nate Allen level.. He didn’t set the bar very high…
Allen is the definition of mediocre. Just look it up, he should have a picture there. Honestly I would feel better if he were here.
Yeah Allen gets a bad rap – and he was poor at times in his Eagles Career, but in 2014 he was a solid league average free safety…. (yes the league sucks at safety these days). A big group of guys will compete there and we just need to hope someone stands up and takes the position with good play.
i’m glad he is gone…he was a “crutch”, I guy we settle on because we can count on him being mediocre. I’m thrilled he is gone, it will force us to find another safety that can play. Whether it’s a young kids who step up, a veteran CB like Thurmond moving to safety, or safety being a key priority next offseason…we aggressively went after,Devin McCourty, the top safety on the market, and that makes me feel better about the safety issue then I have felt in years. that tells us we acknowledge the problem, we arent looking to settle for Mediocre, amd we are willing to spend money on the problem If need be…
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If by the end of this seasom we have 3 of 4 quality starting DBs in place, I will be happy… Going into next offseason being 1 DB away from having a quality secondary is good progress as far as I’m concerned,,, but we have so many young players, that I womt at all be surprised to see two kids step up… Either way, I think we will see significant improvement in the secondary from last season..
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I have no clue how anyone can look at the defense and not think it will be significantly better then last year
It seems you got the gist of my thoughts.
I don’t think it’s as easy to replace starters, even lower-tier ones, as you seem to. Fletcher blew some huge plays, but how much of that is luck, scheme, and teammate versus some kind of irredeemable weakness of his? I do not actually think we will upgrade at his position, although I do think we will have less highly visible gaffes there.
I see no evidence we will be better at DL or LB or FS or CB, so I’m not sure where the improvement is coming from.
I see kiko as a huge addition to improve ilb. Especially with the injuries there last year. Maxwell imho is far superior to anything last year. The line is one year older. I see a bunch of guys who were just like Bradley before he started for us at rcb. I think Graham in a full time role can be a real pass rushing force ( 8-10 sacks).
Maybe I’m wearing green glasses, but I don’t think so. I’m worried about QB and OL.
Thing is, I liked DeMeco, and he’s hurt. Kiko had a great rookie year, but I’m not sure how much of that we can count on. So, that position has two big question marks.
Graham, he’s shown some major flashes, but only time will tell if he can really be a full-time starter. The rest of the line, I would think pretty much is what they are.
Hopefully LB and DL will be good–there is potential, at least!
OL we should be ok unless there are injuries.
QB is, well, yeah… (to clarify: I’m not expecting anything, but maybe Bradford and Kelly will make beautiful music together, who knows?)
I think coaching had a big thing to do with it too. Having a new DB coach should help a bit with technique. We’ve got some good athletes there, hopefully they’ll get the most out of them.
Well that’s one way to lower your OL’s average age, but I’m not sure it’s the route I would have taken…
They haven’t actually released Mathis…..yet.
Just like they haven’t pushed Mychal Kendricks and Brandon Boykin off the side… yet.
I tend to get a little angsty about how things have gone lately with the roster but really I am genuinely curious how it’s going to end up, and for every decision I think makes little or no sense they make one that I really like, so I guess this is the wild ride we all knew was coming when Chip came on board.
If it means no more weekly article about it from Kempski, I’m aboard.
Sean Lee a “ball of energy”. Should be well rested…
Be surprised if he makes it thru preseason without getting injured
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dallas allegedly is movng Mincy to DT and looking to start Gregory at RE week 1, which means Jason Peters will murder that kid in week 2.. Murray will Rush for 200yards if they start Randy Gregory
Comparing Murray and Shadys career numbers are stunning..
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You can’t find two more evenly matched RB’s..
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If you take an average of how many yards and TDs they averaged per year, the only difference is shady gained like 1’yard more per season,
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murray averages 1100’and some change and 7 TDs a year for the last 4 years
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Shady averages 1100 and some,change yards(1’yard more then Murray) and 7’TDs per year for the last 6 seasons
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Eerily similar numbers.. On one hand shady has proven it for two extra seasons, on the other hand Murray having two years less of wear and Tear is Pretty significant in “Running back years”.. Shady has probably suffered less injuries then Murray
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Demarco converted 6 of 6 TD attempts,last year from the one yard line. Hello Short yard improvement, hello redzone improvemet
Wonder if we see any surprise June 1st cuts tomorrow?
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The Media gets to watch Bradford throw 7 on 7 tomorrow, and chip and a few players will address the media again… Kind of crappy since only 1 work day has practiced since they last addressed the media(players were off on Friday)
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Hopefully we don’t see the media,disgrace that we saw,Thursday, it may have been a rock Bottom for our Local media.. What im talking about is Bradford was having a media scrum Thursday, and instead of every reporter being there to talk to our starting QB, about half the media was busy interviewing TEBOW during his media scrum…. What type of a media hack. Chooses to go interview TEBOW,who is the replacement for GJ Kinneys #4 QB/Summer arm, instead of going to talk to the starting QB who has only spoken twice since becoming an eagle?… That’s media rock bottom as far as I’m concerned, can’t imagine them stooping any lower then that
To the fans who have the opinion that the Eagles are going to cut Mathis, why hasn’t it happened yet? If Mathis is going to be cut, what are they waiting for?
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Its pretty clear by now that no one is giving us anything worth a damn for a mathis.. no one in their right mind would give up Value for Mathis and give him a new deal paying him more then 5.5mil.. I don’t even think anyone wants to give up any value to pay the 34 his current contract, let alone rip that contract up and pay him more, has he lost his mind?
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I’m also not sure Mathis is as valuable to all the teams as he is to us… mathis is a smaller guard who is perfect for our offense. In OUR Offense he is one of the very Elite Guards in the NFL, yet I’m not sure that he,would be the best guard in the NFL No matter what team or what system he plays in… So while we value him as an Elite Guard, Im not sure many other franchises value him as much as we do…
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Someone better talk some sense into Mathis, I like the guy, but he is getting poor advice. For someone who wants to make more money for his family, I do not want to see this blow up in his face and him getting lowballed by his next team and we end up losing him, while he makes less then what we would have paid him, instead of more…. What he is doing makes no sense, he is steering us into a Lose/Lose situation… We Lose a quality starter, and Mathis loses money because everyone knows he has zero leverage and I see no chance that anyone pays him the 5.5mil we will pay him, let alone pay him more then 5.5’mil…
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mathis is getting poor advice. The ONLY winner in this is his Grimey agent who will get commission on a new deal even if its not even as good of a deal as the one his agent is advising him to scoff at…… Not to mention Mathis is being extremely stupid and short sited, this city loves Mathis and his Personality, if he shuts his mouth and plays out his career with the Eagles, he will have his choice of local media jobs when he retires…instead he is getting played by his greedy agent. Hope this man wakes the hell up and snaps back into reality…
our system isn’t very different from other systems where there’s zone blocking. that said i think chip learned after cutting djax you don’t just give away assets bc they could end up on your rivals.
Nothing has changed, nothing new has happened…Chip had no problem cutting Herremans who was a class act and a Warrior for us…. if we were going to cut Mathis, I assume it would have happened already… I see No reason to keep playing this dance, and eventually decide to waive him in July…don’t see what we have to gain by waiting to cut him…
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Part of me wamts Mathis to get his wish, get waived and end up signing with the Raiders for like 3mil (2.5 less then what we were paying him)
There will be OL injuries in other camps. Someone loses a starter, suddenly trading for Mathis becomes an intriguing option. No rush to cut him.
That’s a good point too.
Is there anything significant to gain from waiting TIL June 1st to cut Mathis?
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Unless there is anything to gain, I can’t see chip putting up with this distraction longer then he has to if It’s going to end with us waiving him anyway..
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Mathis and TEBOW are really the only “distractions this year”… Why would we let Mathis be a distraction up Til now, if we are just going to cut him anyway?
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hopefully it’s resolved soon, one way or another.. remove what’s left of the distractions…
June first cuts really don’t do anything unless you hard against the cap. The dead money comes off this year or next and with automatic cap roll over it really does not do anything.
I doubt the Eagles are cutting Mathis any time soon – this has been going on for 2 years and they have not moved on, if they were planning to would have happened already.
We don’t need to pay him a $ until September so make a decision then if he is being a problem.
Ok so there would be nothing to gain by waiting for June 1st to cut him… That strengthens my believe that we,are taking coach Zimmers stance on Adrian Peterson “Mathis can play for the Eagles or he can retire”.. And I’m fine if that’s how chip decides to play it.. He can’t get strong armed into a new contract by a 34yr old, 4 months after becoming a GM..
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either way, we can bet that this annoys chip. hopefully he bites his tongue for the next month, Mathis comes in when he is obligated to financially, and being around all his teammates so close to the season gets him to play and perform even if he doesnt win this game of chicken..
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as a fan, obviously I want Mathis to play for the Eagles, but I feel he is in a Lose/Lose situation and at this stage, there won’t be an outcome of him making more then the 5.5mil he is contracted to make now.. if getting waived meant that he would go on and get some 7mil deal from another team, as a man, I would be,happy for a 34yr old being able to provide more for his family, but I don’t view that as a realistic ending at this stage… I’m worried that everyone will lose from this game of chicken and the ON!Y winner will be the slimey agent…. it would be a damn shame for us to have to cut Mathis, and then Evan is forced to sign a contract with someone else making a mil and a half less then what he would have been able to provide for his family had he honored our contract…l it would be a damn shame if we lose a top Guard, and then watch him Lose money, while his agent still walks away with commission… if the Eagles have to lose a top guard, hopefully a 34yr old is able to get a better contract out of this,, but it will be a damn shame if this miscalculation causes the slimy agent to walk away as the only winner
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How many Rosenhause clients left on the Roster,. This he represents Brashad Perriman, if true Im even more thankful for Agholor…
You could make the case that they are waiting to sign a suitable replacement (as Chester might have been), but I don’t think they’re intent on cutting Mathis this season.
If thats the case, I would hope they would be a little more aggressive then to finally flirt with 32yr old chester at the end of May…
Re: Mathis v. Bradford
Generally, most comments seem to be down on Mathis for whatever it is he’s doing — holding out, wanting more money, demanding a trade . . . whatever.
He wants more money. Consensus seems to be he should be grateful with the $5.5 million under the contract he signed a few years back . . . and how dare he want more money.
Sam Bradford, who’s accomplished very little in the NFL, is getting $13 million this season.
No one’s insisting he should take, say, a 50% pay-cut because he he’s been *available* to play in about 50% of his team’s games during his first five years in the NFL.
Why is that? Why is no one criticizing Bradford for not being reasonable and giving money back?
Because he signed a sacred contract? And he’s just being a *man* by honoring its terms?
So, the argument goes, Mathis should also *man* up — like Bradford — and honor his contract?
Others have remarked that for teams, “honoring” a contract is very different than for players.
And if Chip Kelly doesn’t like it, too bad. Kelly hasn’t won any SBs . . . I don’t see him offering to take a pay cut.
So, why you mad?
I don’t think anyone is down on Mathis. its just that no one expects the team to pay him more money. Most fans just want the situation resolved; whether it is Mathis showing up or getting traded. Preferably showing up…
“Why you mad?”
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Pet peeve, I guess, because of the hypocrisy inherent in being critical of Mathis — or even seeking “resolution.”
That Kelly’s annoyed is in part the product of marrying GM responsibilities to coaching. The conflict of interest is obvious.
But so many fans, ridiculously, side with ownership.
No matter what business anyone on this board’s in, they want to get paid — or should — every penny of their worth. So what if there’s a written contract. Companies and employer’s disregard them in every corner of commerce every day.
I think it’s great that Mathis is trying (whatever he’s trying). It reflects, rightly or not, that he doesn’t give a damn about the team or the fans . . . .
(Not saying he doesn’t care about his teammates. I believe he does. And I don’t think any of them have a problem with what he’s doing — ’cause tomorrow, they can be cut.)
I don’t blame either side really…. I see where both are coming from but I wont panic till Mathis starts skipping mandatory training.
Can’t see Kelly allowing that to happen.
Kelly might not be as flexible but how these things typically go is the player skips the mini-camp, misses a day or two of training camp(the 2-practices a day sessions before the new CBA) and then when the player sees he’s giving up $30K a day(a lot even for football players) they tuck their tails between their legs and report. Some times, in an attempt to smooth things over, teams will forgive the fines.
I think most of us favor the players but favor the team we root for more. That is contradictory and confusing but human.
Well as with so many things in life – market forces decide how much players will get paid.
We traded a No.2 pick, Foles and some loose change for Bradford, showing his contract represents value still to NFL teams.
No one has traded for Mathis – showing he is being paid market value. (which is top 10 guard money). Comparing QB’s money to other positions is meaningless, it is a totally different (and dysfunctional) market.
I understand Mathis’ perspective, he wants more guaranteed money, because he knows he only has limited time left and another injury or a small dip in form this year and the Eagles will cut him in 2016, and he will struggle at that point to find a market to get paid what he is due then.
Problem is the Eagles don’t want to extend or increase is guaranteed $ for those same reasons, and frankly they have him by the balls.
I worked as a civil servant for a number of years, under a union contract. The union and employer decided on a pay scale and on any benefit packages. We did not have a say in any of it. There were occasional opportunities to be seconded to a higher-paying position, but those were temporary. Union fees were deducted right from the first pay cheque, before we were even eligible to join, as auxiliary types. When the contract had to be renewed, during my last couple of years, a raise of 1.5 percent, over 3 years, was agreed upon. with the loss of some dental benefits. Neither the employer or union revealed all of the facets to us, until after we voted. Almost immediately after ratification, the union dues were increased to 1.6 percent, annually. The employees either lived with this contract, which we did not sign individually, or we quit. Life is not fair. Get used to it.
EDIT. Except for vacation time, we also worked year-round.
Well it depends job to job and sector to sector, If there is a shortage of skilled employee’s then wages go up and up. My brother works in high end server management programming – and he gets 10-20% pay rises every year because there is so much competition for his skills, unfortunately for me i have to work a hell of a lot harder to get a raise – yay for having to move jobs/sectors every 2 years to get what you are worth.
Not a greaty advertisement for unions and their “leaders!”
Some people think a civil service job means a gravy train. Not. Also, the our union’s paid employees were represented by a different union and had a higher wage scale than we did!
I think some civil union jobs are better than others.
NFL isn’t a free market. It’s not even close.
Franchise Tag.
Salary Cap.
Rookie Wage scale.
Market has very very little to do with payer compensation in the NFL.
It’s also a monopoly, due to government subsidies over the years. One reason competitor leagues don’t arise is that the economies of scale reached by the NFL (and other big sports) due to state and local subsidies in building enormous stadiums and a lot of other, less visible government hand-outs.
Absent those subsidies, the NFL would have (had)legitimate competition from other leagues, and players would have more leverage. Paradoxically, the top-end players would probably see their money decreased, as none of the leagues would be as awash in cash as the NFL currently is.
First off, I want to dispel a myth that the players and the media likes to perpetuate. Teams are honoring a player’s contract when they release a player. The contract and the collective bargaining agreement gives them that right. A player does not have an equal right to holdout. They are contractually obligated to participate in mandatory activities and the idea/”justification” that a hold-out has some type of moral justification because teams aren’t held to the same standard is ludicrous. The players’ union agreed to the CBA. The players signed the contract. If they wanted more guaranteed money or incentives that would have increased their salary based on performance, they could have negotiated that upon signing. They would have had to give up something, likely smaller base salaries. They’re trying to maximize the base on the initial negotiation and then get the other things by holding out. It’s not justified and in the vast majority of cases, I fully support teams not playing the game.
Thjat said, it’s all about leverage. The Eagles traded for Bradford at his salary and gave up a 2nd round pick in the process. They have every contractual right to release Bradford if they don’t want to pay him his scheduled large salary but the incentive is not there for them to do it. Usually, Mathis would have very little leverage. He’s a 34-year old guard who if the Eagles released would most likely not be able to find a team willing to pay him what he’s scheduled to make with the Eagles. Let’s not pretend though that he doesn’t have ways to technically fulfill his contract and still protest his salary. He could milk any little scrape or bruise for all it’s worth and sit games out. He could not show dedication in training. Some players intentionally play like crap. So you say, well if he’s doing that, then just cut him already. Ideally, the Eagles could afford to that. They’ve put themselves in the bad position of needing him enough this year that they have to consider re-negotiating his contract. Ideally they’d have in-house options ready to replace them. Maybe they feel Tobin is ready to step up. IMO they can’t afford to just let Mathis go.
“Teams are honoring a player’s contract when they release a player.”
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Obviously. Teams have the right to cut players.
Where’s it written that players don’t have the legal right to withhold their services in hopes of getting more money?
Sure they can, if they want to accumulate the significant fines that the collective bargaining agreement allows the team to assign. For mini-camps, it’s $10K the first day, $20K the second, and $30K the third. For training camp, it’s $30K a day. For the regular season, it’s their pro-rated salary per week. If they want to make a statement by holding out, then that is their right but teams have a right to penalize them for not fulfilling their contract. Since most players that hold out are doing so in an attempt to make more money, at some point holding out becomes self-defeating.
Just because it has been collectively bargained doesn’t mean it’s fair. The players need better representation. Immediately.
They just had a chance to get rid of DeMaurice Smith and they re-elected him as leader of the NFLPA. As far as “fair”, that’s all a matter of opinion.
I’m getting the impression that you’ve never collectively bargained. You don’t get everything you want. You don’t get everything you deserve. And the way things are going in this country, if you have a union at all, it probably means that the employer would screw you over much worse if they could. Fair? Sure, it’s an opinion question. But in my opinion, not a single tear should be shed for the poor millionaire owners.
Of course you don’t get everything you want. The NFLPA prioritized some issues and de-prioritized others. They prioritized silly issues like easier training camps and caved on more significant issues like the commissioner’s authority and the overall percentage of revenues that went to the players. They get no sympathy from me now that the owners are exercising the rights the players agreed to in the collective bargaining agreement.
“… if you have a union at all, it probably means that the employer would screw you over much worse if the could.”
Possibly true. It could also mean you’re in a labor intensive industry that is producing a commodity product / service, and that the union will help facilicate the demise of that particular company by ensuring that its labor costs are not competitive.
Not “siding” with the owners or anyone else, just pointing out the harsh reality.
That’s a whole different argument. It’s perfectly valid to argue money should be guaranteed even if a player is released. Commercial reality is that this would likely mean contracts in general would be smaller.
If you want greater protection for players in this area (perfectly reasonable) blame the union, but you have to know it wouldn’t come without a downside.
Teams are allowed to cut players and players are allowed to hold out. It is not immoral to hold out if you don’t like your contract. Repeat, it is not immoral to hold out if you don’t like your contract. Repeat, it is not immoral to hold out if you don’t like your contract.
I hate the “players’ union negotiated it” card. It’s like the people who blame “Congress” whenever someone claims about some sort of injustice. There is a reason normal people lose out to big business and NFL players lose out to owners in these negotiations. It’s because they aren’t fair.
It is not immoral to hold out if you don’t like your contract.
Didn’t say it was immoral to hold out. I’d said that there isn’t a “moral” justification to holding out and arguing that because teams have the CBA negotiated right to cut players isn’t any type of justification for the player to violate his contract and trigger the fines and possible other actions allowable by the CBA. The whole “immoral”/”moral”, “fair”/”unfair” structure is just what people use to try to give their opinions on how things should be some higher standing than someone else’s opinion.
100% guaranteed contracts are not a CBA thing – they are what players and teams agree, (it is the same in the NBA/MLB). It just so happens because the injury and fall off risks are so high in the NFL that teams are unwilling to give more than 3 years guaranteed to anyone.
I am shocked players do no say i will sign a 2 or 3 year deal only, what if any money they loose this year they make up for with the rising cap in 2-3 years time – and it gives them control and flexibility. Want those huge headline contracts however.
Please. The word you need is “lose”. Not loose. Don’t want to nag, but we wouldn’t want to see the same mistake repeated. ;~)
Dyslexia for the win ^^, fixed it.
One of my children has a difficult time with a type of dyslexia. Words on paper are hard. He has no problem with a computer screen, however. Something to do with light.
Well, they’re sort of a CBA thing as in that in some other leagues(the NBA for example) the base salary is almost always fully guaranteed(for 1st round picks – not counting option years) while in the NFL the individual teams negotiate the amount and structure of guaranteed money.
It should be understood that saying the structure is unfair, is opinion. No one has said that owners’ taking advantage of their leverage is illegal. Of course, in these conversations, we tacitly make reference to ethical principles which are not universal as well as selectively applied.
This has been poorly written–I feel like my fingers are full of marbles.
All good points. What I think I know about Landry as a coach, he would not have lost sleep over what Mathis is doing, and I doubt Kelly is either. Before Landry was a coach, he played in the NFL, and I doubt that he was a hardline management guy. He demanded meticulous attention to every last detail on the field, and I do believe that some of Landry’s players openly complained at how cold and uncaring he came across, but even they had to concede that his demanding approach paid dividends. I guess I’m among the people that are somewhat sympathetic to Mathis, but, realistically, he’s got very little leverage. He’s probably over-paying for representation, and he will undoubtedly be in camp. Unless of course Kelly fires him.
“I guess I’m among the people that are somewhat sympathetic to Mathis, but, realistically, he’s got very little leverage.”
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Two of us.
3. I think he’s always doing the right things on the field, probably always doing the right things to train, but want to scare up more cash at a time when he’s not required to be at work.
I still wouldn’t up his deal, but I’d let him blow off as much steam as he needs to during the non-mandatory work.
It won’t happen with as large as the fines are for missing camp, but I wouldn’t mind if he sat out until about 3 weeks are left until the regular season. He’s a vet, he can keep himself in shape.
He could also play ball quietly until he vests week 1, then play the “too hurt to practice” card and see what the team would do. The “TO rule” only lets a team suspend you for 4 games in that case.
Mentioned this as a possibility in my mega-rant below. The possibility of him purposely milking injuries. As far as vesting goes, players can only exercise the right for termination pay once in their career. I’m not sure if Mathis has exercised that right at any of his previous stops.
Count me out amongst the “feel sorry” group. You sign a contract, you honor a contract. I don’t care if you’re grossly overpaid and grossly underpaid. I get contract aren’t guaranteed – but you(and rep) are responsible for the contract — if you don’t like it, shame on you for signing it in the first place….
Being halfway between sympathetic and cynical, I wonder if his situation isn’t at least partly the fault of his agent. As we know, agents are paid up front and a new contract would offer another 10 or 12 or 15 or 20 percent for the agent. Mathis is an intelligent guy and must understand dollars versus his age, in the NFL, yet persists in his confusing behaviour.
With the greatest of respect, I don’t see your point. Bradford is honouring his contract. If anyone has an issue with Mathis, it’s because they want him to honour his. There is no cognitive disonance or mental gymnastics at work here.
Beyond that, the most common opinion I’ve heard on Mathis is genuine bewilderment about what he hopes to achieve. It’s vanishingly unlikely he would get a superior contract on the open market. I suspect he’s being badly advised.
I don’t grudge him wanting more money. Just don’t think anyone will give him it*.
*apart from Oakland, I guess. But Raiders be cray.
He won’t get more money. He might be able to get more guaranteed money.
Possible, but if I’m Evan I’d like my chances of getting value out of the contract he has with the Eagles. Not like they have a young stud lined up to replace him. Contract dispute aside, I think we’d be banking on him starting this year and next.
That’s all well and good, but did you see what Condit did to Alves’s nose?!
And how ’bout a guy from your neck of the woods (close enough category) Till with a sweet KO.
Only saw the main event. Condit is awesome, but I still kinda hate the fact it wasnt Jordan Mein in there with him. If that kid had a jaw/good sense he’d be epic.
I’d watch Condit against anyone though. Diaz fight sucked, but other than that he’s always been a ton of fun.
Agree about Mein. That guy is very good and conducting violence. All three (Condit, Alves, Mein) are great to watch.
I remember when Alves was a young pup of a prospect, getting triangle choked by undersized Spencer the king Fisher. His career has been one crazy ride.
I remember winning some good money betting Alves to upset Matt Hughes…. Since he lost to GSP at UFC 100 his career hasn’t been as great as it was supposed to be
condit is praying Rory McDonald wins the title from LAwlor, because Rory has been desperately trying to get a rematch with Condit for years since he gave him his first loss.. No shame losing to Condit especially when Rory was so young, but for some weird reason he felt Embarressed by that loss and is dying to get a rematch…he has been practically obsessed with getting a Condit rematch…….Condit could get lucky and see Rory win the title in which case the champion would be itching to give Condit a title shot… If LAwlor beats Rory, a Condit may have to win another fight before the title shot, but if Rory wins you can count on Condit being his first title challenger
Diaz fight wasmt as exciting as expected, but Condit put on a gorgeous display of Muy Thai Combinations… He was throwing some extremely creative combos at Diaz, mixing Kicks, punches, elbows and knees masterfully….it was an extremely Discaplined, technical display of MUY Thai brilliance, so while it wasn’t the blood bath people anticipated, I enjoyed the technical aspect of that match up
I’m sure Alves is visiting a plastic surgeon today…condit disproved the myth that you can,stab someone’s brain with their nose bone.. “Mob Deep” would have been so proud
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Charles Oliviera looked like an invincible monster,against a very tough Nick Letz.. For a 145lb featherweight, “Do Bronx” Oliviera fought like a monster, he was literally waking thru Lentz punches, eating them like a terminator who kept moving forward to throw brutal standing elbows.. Looks like Do Brox has grown up into a serious,contemder.. For a 145lb man, he looked scary on Saturday….
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Two amazing fights thankfully saved the show from that boring Jimmo crap where he single handed almost put the entire crowd to sleep
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Rony Jason displayed some serious high level JU jitsu, sinking in that triangle choke/arm bar… Some seriously slick Ju jitsu from the Nogueira blackbelt
I haven’t been reading the same posts you have, so I haven’t seen people really down on him for wanting more money. I’ve seen people disappointed in him for thinking he actually has a chance to get more money. I’ve seen people disappointed that he’d think skipping voluntary workouts would help him get the more money he desires.
It’s disappointing (imo) because he seems like such a smart guy and these don’t seem like very smart moves.
I’m one of those guys you seem to be reffering to, so I’ll respond. Bradford is beng paid based on an existing contract. Mathis is being paid based on an existing contract. Sam is at the OTA, Evan is not. That’s why I’m ok with the QB but not with the OG.
I’m fine with Bradford taking it as slow as he needs to if it will increase his odds of a healthy career moving forward, my only hope is that he is far along enough in the recovery/conditioning process to at least be able to get some good work in during the joint practice with the Ravens… for a QB having to return from a lengthy injury, learning a new offense, I imagine it’s extremely valuable for him to get a week of testing himself, and his command for this offense against defenders who are all hungry trying to make a Ravens roster…. Bradford being a full participant for joint practices would be huge for us…
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but with a brand new stable of young DBs battling for roster spots, it’s a damn good year for the joint practices. It’s good for the young DBs, but more important it’s good Intel for the coaches who will Probably have to make the most difficult roster decisions since they became Eagle coaches..This year is going to be much harder to make this roster then the last two years, and that’s a testament to the improved depth… There are going to be,some good players who won’t make this team..
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also like all the joint practice work all those young Offensve lineman will get…
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Well said…
I had forgotten about joint practices. I hope the Ravens really test our D and our O.
Amazing that a college coach came to the NFL and his first 3 seasons he was able to secure joint practices, I don’t know of any pro coaches that do this every summer…..since then the Cowboys and Skins have had joint practices, and now the Giants are holding joint practice with the Bengals. Hard to argue that chip hasn’t influenced this when the Giants hAvent had joint practices in like a decade since Shockey was trying to fight half the Jets players… Seems like Chip influencing the division to me,…
For those talking about contracts and fair value, This weeks OTC podcast is specifically about how players and agents are shooting themselves in the foot by signing long 5-7 year deals so they get those big wow $60-100mil signing figures but rather should be going after 3 year deals, because beyond that there is almost no upside for the player – if he plays well with the cap going up he will be below market value – if he plays badly he gets cut.
Players should realise what they are often signing – which are 2-3 year deals with then 2-4 years worth of team options at often what will be below market value at the time.
With the new CBA there is very little motivation for teams in this situation to give in to players – if he holds out then the player looses money and the team loose very little (top vets rarely need huge amounts of work in OTA’s and early TC since they can prepare their bodies and have generally good technique). The only players who can get away with holding out are franchise corner stones which would cripple their teams if they are not playing.
Revis figured this out well. Even his option year with NE was so high as to be exorbitant. Thereby making it a short term deal.
Revis has maximised his value unlike any player in NFL history, and because he was so good and so impactful he could dictate terms every year. The fact that for the last 4 years he has been on contracts that are basically 1 year deals with punitive options after that has allowed him to cash in again and again.
Plenty players worse than Revis could maximize their contracts better.
Revis knows this.
He might have learned at the feet of Deion Sanders.
Haha Deion said in an interview he was amazed at how good Revis was at managing his situation to maximise his $$ figure.
What’s in it for teams to go along with the approach you suggest?
Would teams lose any advantage currently enjoyed?
Would shorter deals be neutral vis-a-vis current custom for teams?
Would teams gain any sort of advantage?
The splashy chunks of money mean more for the agent.
If the teams want longer deals, they should guarantee more of the late years as the early years are often protected by dead money anyway.
Is shady always on this MTV “Ridiculuosness show”, or did I just happen to catch the one episode shady and Drydek trashed the Eagles on MTV?
Fuck that skateboard riding piece of shit. I hope his ass gets iced by an 18 wheeler that runs him the fuck over.
One of the best truck-drivin’ movies and songs, ever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnRwQjTYfGI
Yeah i think that was the first and only time that he’s appeared on the show. Somebody mentioned that he was gonna do the taping in a thread a few days ago
Shame the set didn’t collapse on him like a Dallas Cowboy practice tent in a storm.
[…] Mathis has decided to not attend voluntary practices. It’s also being reported that Mathis eventually coming back to the team isn’t as much of a slam dunk as some fans think it i…. The possibility of Mathis not returning are increasing with each practice he […]