Understanding the QB Situation

Posted: October 7th, 2013 | Author: | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 183 Comments »

Michael Vick won the QB job this summer. Nick Foles was the backup.

Vick got hurt yesterday. Foles replaced him. It sounds like Vick will miss at least one game. The guys on the NFL Network this morning saw the highlight of Vick’s injury and noted that the closer the injury is to the butt cheek, the more problematic the hamstring strain. Vick was grabbing pretty high. He could very well miss a couple of games.

Vick is still the starting QB for the Eagles. He won the job this summer fair and square. He was up and down this season, but hadn’t played poorly enough to warrant getting benched. Some of his critics felt he deserved that, but mostly those folks just hate him no matter what he does.

Foles will play 1.5 or 2.5 games with Vick sidelined. That’s hardly enough time to figure anything out definitively, but it can give you some hints. If Foles plays great and the offense starts to really score points, Foles might get to keep the job. Chip Kelly said as much at his PC today. He joked that if Foles goes 100 for 100 with 27 TDs, he will stay the starter. Reporters tried to get a more realistic feel for what Foles could do to keep the job. Kelly wasn’t about to offer specifics.

As I see it, Foles would have to play so well that you simply couldn’t put him back on the bench. Is that likely to happen? No. Possible? Sure.

Chip Kelly is balancing short term and long term goals. Vick isn’t part of the long term plans. But he played well this summer. You have to reward him for that. Kelly doesn’t want to send the message to his players that results will be ignored when they conflict with age, salary and/or draft status. Kelly preaches the importance of competition. In order for players to believe this, Kelly must reward the players who earn roles.

At the same time, personnel evaluation is constantly changing. Remember how good Jamar Chaney looked in his first 2 games? Sadly, that was the best he ever played for the Eagles. Michael Vick struggled in the summer of 2010, as the backup QB. He got on the field in Green Bay and looked like a star. He then played great for most of that year. Todd Herremans struggled the first 3 games of this year. Then he made an adjustment and was much better vs Denver. Still haven’t studied him from the Giants game.

Vick won the job this summer, but that doesn’t mean he’s entitled to keep the job. Foles finished 2nd in the QB competition, but that doesn’t mean he can’t steal the job away from Vick. Foles also could lose his spot to Matt Barkley. You judge players on how they play. You don’t ignore track records and what happened previously that year, but you try to stay in the moment as best you can. That’s fair to all players involved and also keeps you from blindly sticking by someone that is struggling at that moment.

This isn’t to say you bench a player the instant he struggles. That would be silly. This is where a player’s history has to be factored in. If he’s got a good track record, you are going to be more patient. You have some proof that he has done his job well and might be able to do so again.

Kelly isn’t looking to bench Vick. Kelly is simply being honest. If Foles comes in and plays lights out, you can’t ignore that just because Vick was better in the preseason.

The obvious argument here is going to be what is lights out. The anti-Vick crowd will set the bar low. The pro-Vick crowd will set the bar high. Chip Kelly won’t have specific stats or goals. He’s going to make a judgment call based on what he sees. Kelly hasn’t shown any bias in his handling of the QBs so far (except for being anti-GJ Kinne!!!). I think we can trust that Kelly will make the right call. Not all fans will agree with him, but that’s to be expected.

As for the long term, Kelly is still searching for “his QB”. Payton/Brees. Belichick/Brady. Kelly/???. I do not see a likely scenario where Vick returns to the Eagles as the starter. He will turn 34 next summer. That’s just not a guy you build around. Foles and Barkley have a chance to be the guy, but neither guy has done anything to this point that makes you think he is the likely answer. “Likely” is the key word. Would you bet a big chunk of cash on either guy right now?

But as I mentioned before…personnel evaluation changes constantly. Foles could thrive in his playing time. Barkley will get extra practice reps with Vick hurt. Maybe the light goes on for him and he wows the coaches in practice. As it currently stands, I’d have QB as the #1 need for the Eagles heading into 2014. You must know for sure that you’ve got “the guy” or you must have the attitude that you’re looking for him.

Plenty can change between now and January. And it probably will.


183 Comments on “Understanding the QB Situation”

  1. 1 Yuri said at 6:55 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    I sense a new blog name springing up from this. Come on, Brian Solomon!

  2. 2 Vick or Nick said at 2:09 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Vick or Nick!!!

  3. 3 bdbd20 said at 7:01 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Just for kicks, what’s your gut feeling on the order of next year’s QB draft (assuming they all come out)?

    Ted, Taj, Murray, Mariota, Carr, Manziel?

  4. 4 holeplug said at 8:29 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    In Peter King’s MMQB column today he talked to a scout that said as many as 9 QBs could have first round grades this year if they all come out.

  5. 5 shah8 said at 9:11 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    I saw that. BS. No draft is ever that deep in QBs, and there are no for sure transcendent talents this year, as far as I am aware.

  6. 6 D3FB said at 12:14 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Bridgewater is pretty damn close.

  7. 7 D3FB said at 12:16 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    I’d say Teddy, Tajh, Hundley, Mariota, Murray, Manziel, followed by a pick-em of Fales/Mettenberger/Carr/Morris

  8. 8 deg0ey said at 2:14 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    Okay, so here’s the fun question – how much are you prepared to pay to move up and get one of the ‘top’ guys? I know this will change and is purely hypothetical, but if the draft were tomorrow the Eagles would pick 12th. The draft order would be as follows:

    1. Giants
    2. Jaguars
    3. Steelers
    4. Bucs
    5. Falcons
    6. Panthers
    7. Vikings
    8. Redskins
    9. Rams
    10. Chargers
    11. Raiders
    12. Eagles

    My guess (based on what we know now) is that, with that draft order, three of Bridgewater, Boyd, Hundley and Mariota would go top-5. With that in mind, you probably only have to trade up to 6 or 8 to get the fourth guy (depending on whether the Vikings trade with the Steelers or Falcons) which is likely not a prohibitive move if Chip sees something he likes.

    One thing’s for sure, though, it’ll be an interesting draft 🙂

  9. 9 D3FB said at 3:22 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    Way too far out w/ too many variables, i.e. final draft position, who comes out vs stays, how guys finish out the year to try and guess a worthy compensation package to move up

  10. 10 Daniel Lee said at 7:09 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Is safety or cornerback the next big need? OLB?

  11. 11 TommyLawlor said at 7:11 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    I think OLB is key. Must be able to get to the QB.

  12. 12 Weapon Y said at 1:15 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    After being a long-time Graham supporter, I’ve decided it’s in the best interest of the team to trade him for another role player in the secondary, DL, or even wide receiver. Clearly, he can’t be a stud in this system. Trade him and make room for a legit OLB. Problem is I think CB is a much bigger need now than OLB. We can get by with our OLBs. We are getting killed by our CBs and safeties. There might have to be a few waves of the defensive transformation. Secondary could be next year, and linebackers the year after. Hopefully, we already have something on the DL.

  13. 13 GEagle said at 7:25 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Same… B dot Grizzle is my man, but they are just stunting his growth with this BS Trent Cole crap…had Brandon been given Coles snap in the first five games, we might have a good pass rusher by now……

    I like Graham, but I can’t take seeing him buried on our bench for a guy with zero potential. Cole is playing because he gets paid, and it stinks!!!! Just trade him at this point…l Nate and Graham for Byrd….we can’t use either player, and the bills finally realized that they are going to lose Byrd for nothing lol…if only this were the nba lol

  14. 14 ACViking said at 7:09 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Re: The Yardstick


    I’m assuming that the implicit bottom-line in your express standard of measure is: “How Does The Offense Perform”?

    Not Foles’ stats v. Vick’s stats, per se.

    Kelly mentioned a few games back — in regard to a couple of drives that ended in FGs — that the team “didn’t score.”

    If the Offense is knocking out TDs and not turning over the ball, that would seem to be optimal in Kelly’s world.

    Just wondering.

  15. 15 TommyLawlor said at 7:14 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Yes, but…gotta be careful about that. How much is due to the new QB and how much is player’s getting more comfortable in system and executing better?

    TDs will be key to watch, but can give you a false positive if it turns out the skill players simply got better due to time and not the QB change. And honestly, it is tricky sometimes to figure out why things got better. Good coaches figure that out. Bad coaches don’t and get fired.

  16. 16 A_T_G said at 7:25 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    I am intrigued to see what Foles can do with an opportunity. I realize he didn’t beat Vick out during camp, but sometimes getting into a game can change coaches perceptions. I hope to see him make good decisions and get positive plays consistently, even if he doesn’t have Vick’s speed.

  17. 17 Iskar36 said at 8:33 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Haha. Well played sir.

  18. 18 mksp said at 7:25 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    You forgot “Manning/Manning”….

  19. 19 TommyLawlor said at 7:35 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    I thought about doing that, but wasn’t sure if everyone would get the joke.

  20. 20 Telmert said at 7:25 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    I think the interesting part of this QB competition is that Chip is new to the NFL and new to virtually every player on the team. And the two QBs could not be more different. Foles is not a threat running the read option. Vick doesn’t do well with anticipation throws.

    A QB competition is not really to determine who is the best QB – the coach’s goal is to win games, not award a best QB medal. He wants the guy who will lead the team to the most points in his system with the collection of players they have at hand. In this case, Chip had way more projection than most coaches do – what will work in the NFL? For him, the decision on the starting QB was also about the core of the system he was going to run.

    When he made the decision, he thought that starting Vick with a system focusing on his strengths would be more effective than a Foles-centric offense, given the rest of the roster. Now he’ll get some ability to compare in live action and evaluate the total impact – how defenses scheme differently, the impact on the running game, the success of plays that Vick can’t run, taking out plays that Foles runs poorly, the speed of the offense, the impact of longer or shorter drives on the defense, etc.

  21. 21 BlindChow said at 9:04 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    It’ll be interesting. I think ultimately his goal is to have a system similar to what he was running with Vick, but I’m excited to see some new things this week if Foles starts.

  22. 22 xlGmanlx said at 7:34 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Not saying one way or the other, but lets not get blinded by a W against a now 0-5 team. QB’s get too much credit in a win and too much blame in a loss. Wins against TB and the ginas won’t show anything.

  23. 23 TommyLawlor said at 7:36 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Totally agree.

  24. 24 Enslaved Meth Cook said at 7:42 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    And yet Wins are all that count

  25. 25 mksp said at 7:43 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Not when it comes to evaluating QBs.

  26. 26 Enslaved Meth Cook said at 8:19 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    yes when evaluating QBs, if a QB cant win a game what good is he?

  27. 27 mksp said at 10:28 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    You sound like the type of guy who blames Romo for losing to Denver 51-48 because he threw a bad INT at the end.

  28. 28 Enslaved Meth Cook said at 12:45 AM on October 9th, 2013:

    romo won that game his team lost it

  29. 29 mksp said at 7:43 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    I think a good performance against a top-15 Tampa Bay defense would probably mean something.

    The trick with the giants is that Vick didn’t throw the ball well whereas Foles did (IMO).

  30. 30 jshort said at 10:11 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    just watched the game again. If they throw the flag on Cole for the head hit on Manning. The one where the ball bounces off a OL helmet, for int. This game could have gone much different

  31. 31 fran35 said at 9:42 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    I agree, the Giants are weak. However, TB has a legit defense despite their anemic offense

  32. 32 the guy said at 7:46 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Official “the guy” ruling: Too early to say if Foles is the guy. Need more starts to make that determination.

  33. 33 D3FB said at 12:12 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    He makes his triumphant return!

  34. 34 GvilleEagleFan said at 12:58 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    I was at the game in Tampa last year, going again this year. Let’s hope we have an even better game!

  35. 35 D3FB said at 2:54 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    I was more referring to the guy returning to the comment section, but you and foles do your thing an get us another W.

  36. 36 Mac said at 2:19 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    Thank you the guy for offering this insight. I can think of no one more qualified to rule in this matter.

  37. 37 BlindChow said at 7:54 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Well, I guess we know ESPN Blogger Kevin Seifert’s agenda. (NFL Week 5 Quarterback Report)

    Michael Vick
    Passer rating: 69.0
    QBR: 96.6
    Briefly: The high QBR was a result of 79 rushing yards. Five of Vick’s seven rushes converted first downs, but in the end, the Philadelphia Eagles were trailing when a hamstring injury forced him from the game.

    Nick Foles
    Passer rating: 114.9
    QBR: 84.6
    Briefly: Foles impressively threw two touchdown passes in the fourth quarter to key the Eagles’ victory over the New York Giants. He completed 6 of 7 passes on third down and beat maximum coverage (with four-man pass rushes) on both scores.

    The Eagles were trailing when Vick left the game??

  38. 38 Anders said at 7:59 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    No, we was leading 16-7.

    Also QBR the ESPN stat is such a crappy stat that it should be outlawed to be quoted on places like this

  39. 39 BlindChow said at 9:01 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    What don’t you like about QBR?

  40. 40 the guy said at 9:17 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    QBR once asked to borrow $20 from me, and then pretended like it never happened when I came up short of cash at the bar. Never again.

  41. 41 shah8 said at 9:19 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    It can be really, really, situational. It punishes indifferent QB play in the fourth quarter of a blowout, and gives credits for cleaning up their own mess, etc, etc. Also, it’s not that transparent–we don’t fully know how it’s composed.

    Would be interested in which of Foles third down completions went for a first. Without having to look at the drive by drive thingie at ESPN again.

  42. 42 shah8 said at 11:13 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Well, I took a quick gander about the third down completions. Two of six did not go for first down, along with a sack on one other third down. One of the six was the DJax TD. Looking at the broader picture, there were third downs that were lost because of bad running plays, and a couple of those first downs were of six and out variety, I think.

  43. 43 holeplug said at 9:56 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    It wouldn’t be that bad if they just took out the idiotic clutch stuff

  44. 44 A_T_G said at 10:14 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    On the plus side, it has a non-stupid scale. How hard would it have been to add in one last step to multiply the QB rating by 100/148.2?

  45. 45 BlindChow said at 10:33 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    The metric QB rating! That’s what they used in NFL Europe.

  46. 46 Matthew Verhoog said at 8:53 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    What’s the point of an arbitrary scale if it’s not a round number? To confuse the slightly informed ?

  47. 47 Nah__Roots said at 9:22 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    lol. How hard is it to look at the box score?

  48. 48 Bob Brewer said at 8:02 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Giants at 0-5 note in a pretty good spot for getting Clowney

  49. 49 Anders said at 8:12 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Clowney might not be a top 5 pick any more.

    Right now players who have performed better than Clowney (and he has still been good):

    Matthews (part of the Clay and Casey Matthews family)
    Vic Beasley
    Sammy Watkins
    Mike Evans

    I doubt the Giants would take a WR or QB and Beasley do not have the typical Giants size at DE.

    I think the Giants if the pick first would try to trade down with a very QB needy team and then take a guy like Matthews or Lewan to protect their franchise QB

  50. 50 BlindChow said at 8:58 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    If Eli doesn’t improve, I can totally see them taking a QB. I think they’re a BPA team, and you don’t get a shot at a top QB very often.

  51. 51 Richard O'Connor said at 10:09 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Yeah, I’ve only seen Clowney play a little bit and he’s been pretty much a non-factor. I don’t really follow minor league football so I don’t know how to judge, but I didn’t see anything special.

  52. 52 phillychuck said at 8:11 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    I’m looking at Michael Nebrich in 2015 :).

    OK, I’ve only seen one of his games, and he does play for Fordham. But he’s really, really accurate and a good runner. Might be a 6th or 7th round sleeper in that draft.

  53. 53 Pennguino said at 8:12 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    QB is the number 1 need in 2014. So tell me again how playing Vick helps that in any way? You play Foles and see if he has the qualities you want or need to run whatever system you will run. If he plays lights out then you have your QB for the next decade. If he plays well but doesn’t tickle your fancy then you have Barkley as insurance next year if you can’t get the QB you want in the draft. If he stinks it up then you roll with Matt. I don’t think he is anywhere ready to start but you might need to know.

  54. 54 A_T_G said at 8:37 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Playing Vick has shown the players that Kelly rewards effort, keeps his word, and isn’t willing to sacrifice the future for the present. These are pretty important factors when you are asking a bunch of 20-something’s to put their health and meal ticket on the line.

  55. 55 BlindChow said at 8:55 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    I think Kelly wants to establish his vision on offense, which appears to involve a fast, mobile QB with a big arm. That means starting Vick, so the receivers, offensive linemen, and running backs get a feel for how he wants his offense to work, even if Vick isn’t there next year (obviously, if this is the case, it would appear Foles wouldn’t be the answer).

    I think it’s the same theory behind establishing a 2-gap 3-4 on defense: it’s what he ultimately wants to wind up with, so they might as well get started installing it now, as opposed to installing one thing this year, then installing yet another thing later.

    That’s my take on things, anyway.

  56. 56 Pennguino said at 10:55 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Thx. I can see what you are getting at. It makes sense but it also goes against what Kelly has said as far as seeing what he has and playing to their strengths.

    I guess he wanted to play to what his heart tells him (Option/Running QB) before he commits to what he actually has. Hopefully he keeps an open mind to what his offense can look like with a non running QB.

  57. 57 bill said at 8:16 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Made sense and I wanted to agree with you, but there are two data points that make it less than obvious for me: 1. Matt Barkley. You can say “value pick” and “4th rounder” all you want, but the reality is this is a re-building team that needs quality and depth at pretty much every position. If Barkley lacks the two big qualities you want in your QB as a position, it makes no sense to take him over some other project who has those qualities; and 2. Kelly’s “repetitive accuracy” statement. At the time it was said, it didn’t give him any benefit (such as hiding a draft preference), and if he was doing it to hide a draft preference for 2014, I’m not sure how much good it would do given his obvious preference for mobility.
    The hypothesis that makes the most sense to me is that Kelly is merely establishing a culture of competition this year; he really doesn’t care about the finished product this year (hence Vinny Curry and Fletcher Cox being completely misused).
    We’ll see going forward, though.

  58. 58 ztom6 said at 9:05 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    They’ve got plenty of needs. Pass rusher and safety are way up there as well.

  59. 59 Pennguino said at 10:47 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Safety and OLB is definitely up there. Was just reiterating what Tommy was saying but didn’t get into it deeper in the post.

  60. 60 ojdiddoit said at 8:54 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Foles runs Kellys offense much smoother,more naturally and with more command than Vick.These and a dozen other reasons are why Foles should be running this offense and not 1yr stop gap soon to be 34 year old,injury prone Qb

  61. 61 shah8 said at 9:05 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    And again, you have to be in a position to get a QB who’s *good*. Just because you want to upgrade, even if it’s completely on a youth basis, a worthwhile player has to be available. Not only that, that player has to be available in the context of other other players who might be even better. Think about it in historical terms. Take the Vikings in 2011. They had just one, very raw QB in Joe Webb, so they *had* to add a QB, even if they thought to keep Webb as a starter! So they went into the draft pretty much totally in terms of getting a QB. Not only that, Rick Speilman fell in love with one QB who almost certainly had a second round grade at best. There was also some talk of Washington getting Ponder (but given Shanahan and his proclivities, I can sort of see it, since Ponder was always a roll out sort of QB and thus fits into the kind of Shanahan/Kubiak sort of offense. However, I doubt Shanahan would have overlooked Ponder’s issues) so the Vikings decided to just get their guy and be sure. And do you know what? There was Nick Fairley picked with the next draft selection. Given what the Viking’s defensive line is like these days, and just how much they miss Pat Williams, what with Guion being a bad interior player and Sharif Floyd sitting behind Kevin Williams, that was just a very bad mistake. And it wasn’t just Fairly–The NEXT FIVE PICKS after Ponder are all starters contributing heavily to their team’s success!

    If the Vikings had just gone after the best talent, even if Joe Webb (or Donovan McNabb) wound up tanking the season, which I don’t think was likely, since the two of them have better stats than Ponder that year (and aside from Dmac’s first start, they’ve never looked as bad), then the Vikings would have had an easy choice to make in terms of picking up RGIII or trading up for him. Leading to a far better today for Vikingstan than the current little panic of picking up a QB who’s not going to know the system, for just the one year contract.

    At the end of the day, you simply cannot just commit to the idea of drafting some young pretty thing and hope for the best. When both your strongest needs are elsewheres–WR/Defense, you can’t be picking marginal QB simply because you don’t want to resign an old guy. You might feel it’s a purgatory, but it is, what it is.

  62. 62 A_T_G said at 9:22 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Odd. Up until your last two sentences, I thought you were making a good argument for setting the table for Foles next year.

  63. 63 shah8 said at 9:40 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Foles can’t play. If he *could* play, I’d take him seriously. That anybody even thinks he can play, despite his record last year, the play on tape, and the very marginal stats that left him among worst of young QBs last year, well, that’s a function of people really hating Vick, with the never-dimming fires of a thousand sexually repressed nuns. Oh, and yes, the traditional love Philly has for under-talented backups going back, well, two decades now.

    I have very little actual fear that Foles will be successful against Tampa. If Foles genuinely does well, I will be very pleasantly surprised, particularly if it’s a sustainable type where a full scheme is run successfully, honestly beating defenses, and not just using worked out individual plays. The Patriots managed to score on them, but everyone else, including Drew Brees, had to work for their scores. And Schiano is fighting for his job (or his future placement) with every game. Realistically, we’re going to be dependent on the Buc offense to be terrible. Unless the players just quit on Schiano.

  64. 64 xeynon said at 9:51 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Last year, Foles was a rookie who played six games, with a patchwork offensive line, a corps of skill players missing its best guys, and a defense so bad he knew he’d have to put up 30 points to win every week. I’d say those are pretty substantial extenuating circumstances. He also didn’t play nearly as badly as you suggest – his numbers were actually pretty much commensurate to those that Vick put up working with a better supporting cast, and ranked up there among the best ever posted by a rookie quarterback. I think that’s misleading, as he had advantages that rookies in earlier eras didn’t, but while he wasn’t Russell Wilson, he wasn’t Blaine Gabbert either. Like you, I have my doubts about his viability as a long term high end starter – his inability to throw the deep ball is an Achilles heel that will sink him unless he pulls off a Tom Brady-esque improvement in that part of his game. But you’re being unduly harsh on him. Brady Quinn, Caleb Hanie, Tyler Thigpen – these are guys who flat out can’t play. Foles is at the very least a competent NFL backup.

  65. 65 shah8 said at 10:02 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    /me rolls eyes.

    He didn’t score very many TDs. He did have plenty of TOs. He couldn’t even claim to be less injury-prone. The play on tape reflected that, because you can see why he wasn’t prolific or secure.

    And no, he doesn’t make quick reads, nor does he really get the ball out fast or with anticipation. You wouldn’t even want him to be doing that outside of set-piece play design. The “touch” is the same “touch” that all weaker QBs have. Easy catch balls are easy to catch, including for the guys wearing the wrong colors. I’d rather have the cannon.

    He plays a lot better (and with actual football acumen) than Ponder or Gabbert does, but he has the tools of neither of them. And generally? It always catches up with you.

  66. 66 xeynon said at 12:30 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Didn’t catch up with Joe Montana, Tom Brady, or Kurt Warner. Not saying Foles is in their class, because I don’t think he is or ever will be, but three of the greatest of all time are guys who wouldn’t pass your “tools” test.

    Situational awareness, anticipation, instincts, accuracy, poise under pressure, work ethic, etc. are all “tools” that matter as much as sheer physical talent. If success were all about the latter JaMarcus Russell and Ryan Leaf would be on their way to Canton and Brady, Montana, and Warner would’ve played their entire careers in Canada or in the Arena League.

  67. 67 A_T_G said at 9:59 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Take solace in the fact that you are not talking to one that hates Vick here. I would prefer he was starting this week, on my fantasy team as well.

    I would argue that, in a very limited sample, his performance in the second half was “sustainable type where a full scheme is run successfully, honestly beating defenses, and not just using worked out individual plays” more so than Vick in the first half.

    I would hate to think any Eagles fan would “fear that Foles will be successful” but I think we should both be optimistic he will be.

    By the way, what is Joe Webb doing now?

  68. 68 shah8 said at 10:15 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    If Foles had played better than Vick, he would not have given up the lead. If he struck fear into anyone’s hearts, the Giants wouldn’t have been attempting to shut the run game so thoroughly. And realistically, if the run game during the second half of the Giants is representative of what the run game will look at in Tampa, he will almost certainly not be able to make up for that. And Tampa has some real shutdownability when it comes to the run.

    I know people think my appreciation of Joe Webb is silly. I’d cream my panties if Chip Kelly got him (even at WR), and I say that with no shame. In a sense, I bring him up all the time, especially on Football Outsiders, specifically to mock people who literally can’t tell which QB is actually physically capable of doing the job. It was a very safe bet because if the Vikings had *not* landed Freeman, Webb was almost certain to start again at QB–because he was the *only* QB on the roster with starting caliber tools. It’s not like Vikings management did not see Cassel’s liabilities. How much money would want to bet that that the Bills inquired about Webb (discretely, of course) recently?

  69. 69 Jerry Goldstein said at 10:31 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Yo man, what NFL team do you scout for?

  70. 70 A_T_G said at 10:54 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    What does that add to the conversation?

  71. 71 Jerry Goldstein said at 11:36 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    About as much as Shah has ever added to any conversation, anywhere. Except it wasn’t 3 paragraphs long.

  72. 72 A_T_G said at 10:33 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    You bring up a player who was seen as more valuable as a wide receiver with one career catch than he was as a QB on a team that is literally signing a guy off the street as an example of how OTHERS can’t objectively evaluate QB skills? Have you swayed many opinions?

    The Giants DID sell out to stop the run, and they paid for it to the tune of a 115 QB rating and a loss.

  73. 73 shah8 said at 10:46 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Yup, yup, yup.

    Like I said, this is one of those easy meat thing. I can be wrong, for the stuff I can’t see, like absorption of the playbook. So there can still be egg on my face.

    However, I *do* have a good record for accurate judgement, football, politics, tea, whatever. That’s the only reason anyone has ever listened to a nobody. Like specifically mentioning in a Football Outsider thread about season predictions that Schaub is very likely to have a bad year, and that gamblers should take their spots on Texans games.

    I’ll say it again, since it always seems to bounce off people’s metaphorical ears: Joe Webb has actual NFL starters tools. Joe Webb actually shows them on the field, and both the stats and the tape reflect that. The number of QBs who can credibly claim a potential to play at a high level during an NFL game is less than 32. Thus, there is a *very* low chance that another team won’t move him back to QB after he becomes a free agent this offseason.

  74. 74 A_T_G said at 10:53 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Fair enough, I certainly have no reason to root against the young man. His odds are looking pretty long, though.

  75. 75 Andy124 said at 10:36 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    If Foles had played better than Vick, he would not have given up the lead.
    Totally. With Vick’s speed there’s no way he would have let NYG score those TD’s in the 3rd.

  76. 76 anon said at 11:15 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Was going to say the same thing (except the joe webb part). I like Foles, but it wasn’t looking good at all until we started getting turnovers. He played w/ short fields, but made some good plays for TDs can’t take that away.

    Honestly, last year in the TB game i thought Foles would be the future b/c Vick was terrible.

    Kelly should get coach of the year for the change in vick from last year to this year.

  77. 77 Pennguino said at 12:03 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    You really are in love with yourself aren’t you. Completely blind to what actually happened in the third. Blind or you have your head stuck somewhere where you can’t see.

    First drive:

    Foles converts on a 3rd and 10. He hits Celek for 11 yards (2-13) leaving a 3rd and 2. McCoy gets stuffed for 6 yards. Yep, all FF (Foles Fault).

    Second Drive:

    3rd and 10. He hits Desean for 9 yards leading him to where he needed to go, but Desean stops his momentum and tries to curl it back into the inside failing to reach the line to gain. Again, FF.

    Third Drive:

    Field Goal! Which happens to be the exact amount of points Vick earned in the 1st quarter even though he had 0, yes ZERO passing yards. At least Foles had 60 yards passing in the third.

    So let me borrow a Vickscuse….Foles doesn’t play defense….Foles didn’t throw a pick 6 to cause them to lose the lead. Not unlike Vick. He had 2 TO’s that were returned for 6 points losing the lead or breaking a tie.

    You are so clueless about Foles it’s really sad.

    “And realistically, if the run game during the second half of the Giants is representative of what the run game will look at in Tampa, he will almost certainly not be able to make up for that.”

    History lesson. Tampa Last year had the Number 1, Yes ONE rush defense in the league when Foles beat them. As a matter of Fact he led the Eagles in rushing in that game. He also accounted for 98.5% of the yards and he scored all three touchdowns.

    This is what he did


    So before you start to run your mouth on what you think you know, you might want to install a sight glass in your stomach so at least you can see where you are going you no talent hack. You are embarrassing to the men and women who support Vick.

  78. 78 anon said at 12:30 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    TB’s secondary looks a little different this year wouldn’t you agree?

    I think it sucks that we’re going to have Vick/Foles arguments for the rest of the season, i’d rather enjoy the win be thankful that we have 2 viable QBs and a winnable schedule. It’s that the fanbase is so divided over something we have no control over.

  79. 79 Pennguino said at 2:19 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Oh yea…They are a lot better this year. Should be a tough game. The equalizer is that Foles has starters playing with him this year. Should be a great battle. I hope that he destroys TB. But realistically I expect a 16-20 Game with the Eagles winning. I think there will be some ugly to be spread around.

  80. 80 RIP Worms said at 12:41 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Waiting patiently for the return of Tuesday Night Football.

  81. 81 planetx1971 said at 2:54 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Wow. Did Foles run someone in your family over? You have “Very little fear Foles will play well in Tampa”? As an Eagles fan, shouldn’t you fear that he WON’T play well? I question your loyalt sir. As well as the hue of green your blood SHOULD be.

  82. 82 xeynon said at 9:39 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    This team is likely to have a top 15 pick in a QB heavy draft. You can argue that none of these QBs are sure fire stars, and you’d be correct, because there’s no such thing, but they are all getting high grades from scouts, even guys like Manziel who were previously thought not to be NFL prospects. It looks likely that there will be a confluence of need and opportunity here. That’s not the same situation the Vikings were in – nobody rated Ponder that highly, and he was part of a poor QB draft class.

  83. 83 D3FB said at 12:07 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    I’d wait until they have to declare to state that it’s actually a QB heavy draft. If Hundley, Mariotta, JFF, all stay in school, it won’t be terribly deep. Bridgewater and Boyd are both legit top 5 picks, but Fales, Mettenberger, Carr, and Morris are all more up in the air type players, that most won’t have strong opinions on until months of heavy tape study in the late spring.

  84. 84 xeynon said at 12:22 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Fair enough, but even if the QB class is made up only of seniors and underclassmen who are sure bets to declare (looking in your direction, Johnny Football), it’s still going to be a moderately strong QB class. All those highly touted juniors coming out is the difference between moderately strong and historically strong.

  85. 85 D3FB said at 2:53 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    well put

  86. 86 Sean Scheinfeld said at 9:14 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Even though Mariota has played in Chip Kelly’s offense, I’m not sure he’s the best fit for the NFL version of it. It’s not a ‘that might work in college’ thing, it’s more what we’ve seen so far from the NFL version. I think Tajh Boyd might be that elusive and oft-debated “best fit.” Feel free to agree or point out how wrong I am. My father has never had any problem doing the latter.

  87. 87 holeplug said at 10:06 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    why wouldn’t he be a good fit?

  88. 88 A Big Butt and a Smile said at 9:24 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    lol. Only in Philly.

  89. 89 xeynon said at 9:25 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Very good analysis Tommy. I agree that Vick won the job in the summer and hasn’t played poorly enough to warrant benching, and also that unless the offense shows significant improvement under Foles he shouldn’t be “Wally Pipped”. Also agree that the chance to get more information on what Foles can and cannot do in this offense will be invaluable. I specifically want to see how he plays against a defense that has the ability to take away what he does best.

    The more info on Foles and/or Barkley we have going into the offseason, the easier it is to formulate a strategy for the 2014 draft/free agency period, which will be absolutely critical for the future of the Kelly regime.

  90. 90 planetx1971 said at 9:35 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    However this QB situation shakes out, and for the record I wanted the best man to win & Vick did. That said, this is what I loved watching Foles. I LOVE that he can throw a touch pass. Watching Vick I only remember weeny Scud Missiles. Also, I’m no expert, but it seems to me that Mike is an “Reactionary” QB & waits for a receiver to get some seperation before launching said Scud missile. I would suspect it’s only logical that contributes to his holding the ball 3+ seconds. Ahold its also REALLY nice to see a QB be anticipatory atleast some of the time. NOT a Vick hater, just pointing out some things I liked.

  91. 91 A_T_G said at 9:46 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Not to see it get lost in the QB talk, did Davis make an adjustment during the second half? We held the Giants offense pretty well the first half, then they came back out and found some things that worked. After the two TD drives, though those TDs started turning into INTs.

  92. 92 BlindChow said at 10:30 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Hopefully the All-22 answers all.

  93. 93 Mitchell said at 9:52 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    What happened with Barkley that not many people think he can win the starting job for the Eagles? I have been sensing lately, that not too many people think he could be the guy.

  94. 94 Ark87 said at 10:51 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    He’s a forgotten man this year for sure. Part of that is he has a lot of common with Foles but doesn’t really do anything better (which is fine as a rookie). He is a lower draft pick in a weaker QB class than Foles, so I think people are falling into the trap of thinking he is a lesser version of Foles (who is not a strong fanchise QB candidate either). Matt also failed to make much of an impression in the preseason (again, fine for a rookie).

    I haven’t written him off though, he can make a big sophomore leap mentally, physically, and health wise. My understanding is his arm strength may improve as he gets further removed from that shoulder injury and continues the nfl strength and conditioning training, plus mechanics. He will definitely be a player in the competition next year.

  95. 95 anon said at 11:06 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Yeah he looked terrible in pre-season / TC. Hopefully its an experience issue — his arm should get stronger, he gets the ball out really quickly, but he had a lot of issues throwing the ball.

  96. 96 ICDogg said at 7:59 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    With more core strength he’ll be able to get more distance and zip on his throws.

  97. 97 fran35 said at 1:01 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    Listening to reporters who are on the field during practice, they say that Barkley’s arm looks markedly better. He has been rehabbing it alot as well. Hopefully he gets there, but he did not impress me at all.

  98. 98 ICDogg said at 7:58 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    I still have hopes for him.

  99. 99 Telmert said at 10:13 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    I thought Barkley was the best of the three QBs this preseason at running Chip’s system (i.e. before the snap). He impressed at at taking command of the team to get them lined up and making adjustments. Also looks promising at making pre-snap reads and getting the ball out (like the Salas bubble screen TD). I thought his problems were with the more standard NFL plays. He’s just not ready for the speed of the NFL and will have to learn to compensate for a mediocre arm. A few years ago (before Luck/Wilson/etc.) everyone would have expected him to wear a baseball cap on game day for 2 years.

    We’ll find out whether Chip thinks he can develop in April.

  100. 100 scratcherk said at 9:53 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Off topic: I would love Rex Ryan as DC next year. SIGH.

  101. 101 anon said at 11:04 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    He might still have a HC job. Hopefully gus bradley is on a short leash.

  102. 102 Gary said at 11:10 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    Unfortunately I see Davis getting at least another year no matter what happens this season.

  103. 103 GEagle said at 7:38 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    Yeah cuz he is SOOO horrible. The nerve of him to not have this unit playing like the steel curtain. Doesn’t he know it’s week 5 and he is coaching 5 future hall of famers?

  104. 104 anon said at 11:37 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    we have a better record than atl.

  105. 105 Tim Caulk Turk said at 11:57 PM on October 7th, 2013:

    How can Foles get the chance if Vick is on the field. I wouldn’t say Vick outplayed him on the preseason

  106. 106 SteveH said at 12:53 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    I hope somebody fucking wins the job for good so I don’t have to keep wading through these dumpster-fire arguments over which quarterback we should play.

  107. 107 Corry said at 7:46 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    This. Can’t up vote this enough.

  108. 108 LeQuan Glover said at 1:59 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    I heavily disagree with the premise on several fundamental levels. First off, how do we know it’s not “likely”? Every time Foles has gotten an opportunity to step onto the field, he’s produced. Secondly, I think everyone(and Chip) mis-evaluated what transpired at training camp. Nick Foles didn’t play up to Michael Vick. Michael Vick played up to Nick Foles, and it was unsustainable. Vick simply can’t make those QB throws on a consistent basis(like the ones Foles made to Djax and Celek yesterday) and the reason is simple: Vick doesn’t trust his receivers. There are tight windows, and you’re not always going to be perfect. But Foles is able to put it up there, and he trusts his receivers to go get it. Honestly, ever since the first half of the Chargers game, I feel like Michael Vick’s played poor as Chip asked him to be more of a pocket passer. Of course, the O-Line as I alluded to is poor, and our receivers probably aren’t getting completely open, but this is the NFL, we shouldn’t expect them to. Gimme the 6’6 kid that can throw a football, anticipate it and make plays.

    As for the Read-Option? Vick’s surprisingly terrible at it. Get Washington out of your heads and think back to every time we ran the Read-Option. Vick’s runs didn’t come from the Option, they came from a passing play that turned into a scramble. Whether it’s faking or whether it’s keeping, defenses are able to read Michael Vick. You can tell because the defensive lines are able to converge on McCoy. That wasn’t a Foles thing, it was mostly the O-Line suckage and defenses are literally *able* to read Vick. They aren’t confused. Vick does a poor job of “selling” the hand off.

  109. 109 holeplug said at 10:00 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    read option is working just fine. its the one thing Vick does really well. averaging over 8 ypp through first 3 games with it

  110. 110 anon said at 10:07 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    yeah we have the second highest yards per attempt.

  111. 111 shah8 said at 2:22 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    apropros thread:


  112. 112 A_T_G said at 7:18 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Wait, Vick falls between Brady and Manning on the career stats axis? And the three of them are are slightly behind Cam Newton? And the best career stats out there have been accumulated by two guys with almost 3 seasons between them?

    It is humorous, but clearly this was created by someone who does not belong to the XKCD funny AND accurate school of thought.

  113. 113 ICDogg said at 7:40 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Apparently they are using the NFL career “approximate value” as you find in pro-football-reference.com

  114. 114 jshort said at 8:21 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Ya know whats funny, When Vick grabs the back of his leg, giant fans are cheering along with half the fans watching the game in Phillly.

  115. 115 ICDogg said at 7:44 AM on October 8th, 2013:


  116. 116 GEagle said at 7:07 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Eags aren’t drafting a QB..take that to the bank!!!

    we turned down valuable compensation from Tampa and KC (heard it was a 2nd and a 5th) during the owners meeting. We turned down the Browns and a coupe other teams inquiries during the preseason…

    For a team that’s trying to win a division in a year that we will allegedly draft a QB, extra draft pics are GOLD..we turned Down Gold that could have given us the ammunition to draft a QB so that FOles could only play a few games when Vick in hurt? I call BS!!!!

    I also the despise the Chip needs “His” QB talk….what a joke! If FOles is a young quality starter in the making(I don’t know that he is), but since multiple franchise personel people seem to think is I won’t rule it out….then I don’t believe there is an NFL coach alive, that has a young QB, but wants to trade him, because he isn’t fast enough….I think that’s insane!!!
    So damn hard to find a QB, yet I’m supposed to believe that Chip will go fishing for a young QB again, just because FOles isn’t fast enough…If Nick proves he can play, then he is, Chips guy….if he can! we will draft a QB…I bet the former!!!

  117. 117 GEagle said at 7:18 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    So FOles didn’t set the world on I fire as a rookie…guess he needed more time to develope as a pro style QB…how did all those fast QBs who tore up the league as rookie, now that they have to develope into a more pro style throwing QBs? RG3? Cam? Kapernick?……just cause F olds hasn’t proven to be the answer yet, doesn’t mean he can’t or won’t…..

    if FOles can be a good NFL starter, then Chip will tailor his system. QB is too hard to find. If you have one, you aren’t going to go fishing for another one because the one you have isn’t fast enough….I. Think Chip is SMARTER. Then THAT!

  118. 118 anon said at 8:56 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    I guess coaches don’t see him in practice, didn’t have all TC and Pre-season to see him play. If he didnt play well enough in those instances when he had a chance to win the job what makes you think he’d play well enough now. I hope he does for the team, but to think that Foles is getting shafted I just don’t see it. He has another chance to win the job (which Kelly knew would come at some point during the season, which is why he says you need 2 QBs) let’s see if he takes it.

  119. 119 GEagle said at 9:08 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Chip Kelly an hour after drafting Barkley: “QBs are like Teabags, you never know what you really have until you put them in Hot water”

    Does that answer your question? I’m only judging the situation from what OUR coach said….Practice is NOT the equivalent of HOT WATER!!

  120. 120 anon said at 9:54 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    yeah and that’s the last thing he’s said about mb.

  121. 121 GEagle said at 7:51 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Eagles won’t draft a QB in 2014 unless they trade FOles..since I don’t believe that will happen, then, I think talking about drafting a QB in rd 1 is useless…
    But if we were going that route, I would hope its Hundley..

    Drafting a QB is such a crap shoot, that I think it’s Assenine to think we have a yoûng starting QB, but we will discard him because he isn’t fast enough, and try to draft and develope a QB all over again? I think it’s crazy talk IF and only IF, ole scan prove to play in this league…

    To hard to find a starting QB, draft is an I exact science…you don’t trade away FOles unless you believe that if you miss in the draft, that Barkley can play for you! and I. Doubt Barkley can prove that by April…

    IfFoes style of play is good enough to turn down valuable draft pics that could give us the ammunition to get our QB, just so he can play the 3 games Vick will miss, then I don’t buy for one second that FOles style of play can’t work for Chip…
    …QB is so hard to find and then develope that I think a QB transcends a good coaches scheme. if FOles is a player, a good coach will tailor the offense around him…especially when you have the second best back in the NFL who tore the league up two years ago in Andy’s antiquated offense…Shady put up 1600 and 20 TDs without the read option..

    AP never used a read option and racked up 2000 yards, playing next to Pinder against 8 in the box..
    Brady is slower then Foles…the patriots have a good run game, running out oft he same exact formation Chip uses…

    It’s a joke to think Chip needs a fast QB just to get production out of the second best back in football…and since I think more of our coach! then such senseless stupidity, I’m under the assumption that if FOles isn’t a starting NFL QB, then we will fleece an organization for a 2nd round pick, BUT IF Foles IS a starting NFL QB, then Chip will tailor is offense to FOles…
    The question ISNT, can FOles be Chips guy, the QUESTION is can FOles be a quality NFL. Starter, if the answer is yes, he is our future and we will take 5th and 6th Round fliers on QBs. If the answer is no, then we will trade FOles and draft a QB high….but it’s too damn hard to find a QB. Who can lead your team for the next day, to be getting rid of young kids, just because texted aren’t fast enough…maybe I could understand it if your RBs were Bryce and Polk, but when you have Shady McCoy, you can do without the read option and he will still be productive…
    Can’t play QB for Chip? That went out the window when we drafted Barkley as our 3rd QB and when we turned down about 5 different franchises calls for FOles…a team with this many holes, wouldn’t turn down extra valuable draft picks for a guy that can’t be Chips guy, in a year we allegedly are going to draft a QB in round one, just so he can play for 3 games when Vick gets hurt coming off a 4-12 season…I. Don’t believe that AT ALL!!

    If FOles is a starter, Chip I will make it work around him..

    If FOles isn’t a starter, then we will fleece a team out of a 2nd n 5th round pick
    but FOles being an NFL starter, but NOT being a Chip guy, is just crazy talk to my ears

  122. 122 GEagle said at 8:18 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    for me, this is the most exciting week of the season…When you don’t have good enough players to compete for a SB, then I become more interested in identifying young players to build around, and that can’t happen if you don’t play them.

    Do I KNOW that FOles can be a starting QB that a franchise can build around, hell NO…but I I know that NO ONE else has a clue at this point either. so it’s very exciting for me, seeing what this kid can do in his sophomore season. I would prefer, actually putting the kid in the best position to prove himself, which entails an offseason and a SEASON with him as the focus…since we aren’t getting that, I have to take what crumbs that Vicks injuries provide, and that makes this week very exciting for me…However, I hate these 1 or two week auditions…when a young kid isn’t done growing, he needs game time to grow, make mistakes, correct them, grow from them..which FOles isn’t getting because of Vick..

    Because some QBs have had rookie success, people think that Foles should have shown more by now, but it’s a mistake to rule him out at this point..Sure some mobile QBs came in as rookies, ran around and had big years..RG3, Kapernick, Cam Newton….but how are those guys doing after their rookie season when they are all being asked to grow the pro style QB part of their games? NOT very good,,,
    Luck had a good rookie year, but he is that rare talent…MOST PRO style QBs need years of seasoning before they can arrive. Aaron Rodgers would have been garbage if he was asked to play as a rookie in FOles I situation..Aaron Rodgers wouldn’t have been ready as a sophomore to do what FOles just did to the Giants…Peyton, Aikmen, those guys had horrible rookie seasons,…Just because FOles hasn’t set the league on fire yet, it’s dumb to already put limits on I his game and think we know where his game will max out at…

    Hopefully this kid will get the continuity and game time needed to be able to have a clue what he can and can’t be…but if we discard every pro style QB after a year or two, it could be a decade before we find a guy who not only can be the man, but prove to be the man right away, feeding our need for instant gratification..

    I despise the “Chips guy” talk,..QB is too hard to find. There isn’t even enough to go around to all 30 franchises…I don’t think our coach is an idiot. So NO, I dont think he would discard a guy who might be a franchise guy just because he isn’t fast enough…Barkley draft! and turning down KC,Tampa,Cleveland, and who knows who else, should have proven that by now…

    If he couldn’t be “Chips” guy, then we would be sitting here with an extra 2nd n 5th round pick watching Dixon or Barkley play this week…”I know you need two QBs in this league” BS!!! Teams making a Super Bowl run can make that statement, not Chip….Chip NEEDS. 1 QB first, and if FOles couldn’t be the future, then he would be gone by now because other personel people from multiple franchises around the league sure seem to value him

  123. 123 eagleyankfan said at 8:27 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Geagle – I’m not sure I can take anymore of your logical posts. Give Foles an extended look in real games? You sir, are obviously insane. We don’t do that here. We judge a QB’s fate by a preseason game.

  124. 124 GEagle said at 8:33 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Lol sorry…il get with the program. FOLES sucks! He can’t play QB for Chip! A backup QB for 3 games Vick gets hurt is more v luable then extra draft pick in a year that EVERYONE is convinced we are drafting a QB high…who cares who franchise personel people all around the league would give up good value for the kid, he hasn’t set the league on fire in his first 7 games…might as well just cut him lol

  125. 125 eagleyankfan said at 8:39 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    That’s the spirit!! 🙂

  126. 126 GEagle said at 8:42 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Lol…dude, get with the program. Its 2013…don’t you know that down voting me is the cool thing to do?

  127. 127 fran35 said at 1:53 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    Foles *sucks*. Joe Webb is the *best* QB prospect to come along since Mike Vick.

  128. 128 Jerry Goldstein said at 11:57 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    But Shah says he’s garbage and won’t amount to anything in this league. We all know he’s a football genius.

  129. 129 eagleyankfan said at 8:20 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Hey look — a 3rd anti-Foles article. You can say I’m anti-Vick but I feel I’m more realistic about what I’m seeing. Quote – ” You don’t ignore track records and what happened previously that year” — um, wasn’t Vick benched last year? I guess we’ll ignor that little fact. Has Vick be playing lights out? NO. He’s been “ok”. My point continues to be — Foles can be “OK” as well AND you’ll have your answer for next year. Another quote “but neither guy has done anything to this point that makes you think he is the likely answer” .. how can either of them do anything if their not playing in a REAL game? So, you’re judging is by ignoring Vick’s injurieds/Vick’s benching and his “ok” game playing(I’m not talking stats, I’m talking Wins/Loses) BUT Foles has to be lights out? Give me a break.

  130. 130 GEagle said at 8:22 AM on October 8th, 2013:


  131. 131 anon said at 8:48 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Foles was also benched last year. I think last year’s performance is irrelevant for both players but if you look at the numbers they were equally as bad. Vick won the QB competition so the job is his. He hasn’t played bad enough to lose and the guys love him — i think it sends a bad message to the lockerroom if he wins the comp. then gets benched for someone that plays just as good as he does.

    If Foles plays great for 2 games then its a different conversation, but i don’t think you can make too much out of one half of play.

  132. 132 eagleyankfan said at 8:56 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    But — nobody is saying grade Foles on 1/2 of a game. All I’m saying is — Foles COULD be the guy. Foles COULD be a bust. But just because Vick goes down, we now read that we need to start grading QB’s in college. I’m saying — why? Shouldn’t we grade what we have here first? I agree 100% that last year means squat. I do have to ask though — Vick is NOT playing great. Why does Foles HAVE to play great to win the job? It can’t be that Vick is a proven winner. Do you expect Vick to suddenly play great? Vick is who is we all thought he’d be(and I do like the guy) — he’s just not great, nor a proven winner(judging by recent games). To your point that people love Vick etc. etc.(which I get) but what do you do next year? Have a QB that nobody likes? I’m not sure that holds water. You are right though, Vick hasn’t played bad. He’s been ok. I think Foles can be OK as well.

  133. 133 eagleyankfan said at 9:03 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    That brings me to my question. Why can’t Foles play for 4 to 6 games right now? Cause Vick gives us the best chance to win? Eagles were 1-3 under Vick. Two things: 1) I’m not saying Foles would be 4-0. Heck, maybe not even 1-3. 2) I’m not saying Foles WINS the next 4-6 games. BUT — we’ll know more about Foles. So — what’s the WORST case scenario if Foles plays a few games?

  134. 134 anon said at 9:06 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    i think we learned about Foles in pre-season. If Foles had won in pre-season, gone 1-3 would you still want to see what Vick could do in the offense?

  135. 135 eagleyankfan said at 9:15 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    We learned about Foles in preseason? How exactly? The 1 int? Is that what we’re grading him on? So we’re not grading Vick on the 1st game with his INT to end the first drive? BUT more to the point — No — I would not want Vick in. I already know what Vick can do. What I don’t know, is what Foles can do. Vick was LIGHTS out in pre-season. Where is that play now? It’s not there because you can’t over judge play in the preseason.

  136. 136 GEagle said at 9:27 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    I’m shedding tears of Joy reading your posts this morning. YOU complete me!!!! Lol

    We know Vick isn’t good enough, and we have a kid who has shown some promise and who we DONT know if is good enough. I don’t think either makes us that much better this year, so why in the world wouldn’t we want to find out who this kid is, when there is no drastic drop off, and when we aren’t competing for a SB heading into a good QB draft? It’s Maddening to me!!!!

    Everywhge I turn I have to read about investing a first round pick in a QB, from people that don’t even want to put in the time to find out what we have in the one we drafted in the 3rd round a year ago…3rd round isn’t exactly chopped liver. Drafting a QB in round 1 for a team with our holes is such a huge decision…yet people can just pound the table for it, without wanting to make an INFORMED decision, about what we really have, and what we really need? And for what? A 33yr old who has been good, but we all know isn’t going to be good enough? INSANITY!!!!

  137. 137 Joseph Dubyk said at 9:45 AM on October 8th, 2013:


  138. 138 anon said at 10:24 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    it’s commentors what do we know, its unclear whether FO feels that way.

  139. 139 OregonDucker said at 1:37 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    All three QBs can shine in Chip’s offense. The one who makes quick decisions, is accurate, does not telegraph pass target (Foles and Barkley), and does NOT turn the ball over is your best bet.

    We all know what Vick can/cannot do. Let’s see what Foles and Barkley can do.

  140. 140 anon said at 10:03 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    No — he’s also getting graded on the 3 fumbles and the fact that he didn’t throw the ball downfield. Not saying he didn’t play well.

    The Vick pick was a hale mary to end the half (a move he hasn’t made since). Foles’ pick was a bad throw in the end zone after a botched snap — which would you rather have in a game?

    Let’s not pretend Foles didn’t make mistakes in pre-season.

  141. 141 eagleyankfan said at 1:20 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    Foles had 3 fumbles in the pre-season? I missed all three of those. But I still think you’re missing my point. I saw what Vick can do — and it’s unspectacular. I know that Vick is not the future. Why not play Foles? IF Foles stinks — then, well, we can start reading articles about grading QB’s in the draft.

  142. 142 fran35 said at 2:01 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    Throw the ball downfield?? Did you happen to see the 21 yard out that he threw ON THE MONEY to Desean to get us into FG range? That was the hardest throw to make in football, and he feathered a beauty. And he did that ice cold off the bench.
    Again, for the record–Foles may not be anything better that a career back up. But he already shows alot more big boy QB skills than Vick has. I think the kid deseves a chance.
    F*ck, put the lunch lady back there to see what she’s got, the point is that we know what Vick can do. Give someone else a chance to fail.

  143. 143 eagleyankfan said at 9:20 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    If I was to imagine — swapping Vick and Foles roles to this point, I’d say Foles has been “ok” and he can still learn. I can’t say that about Vick. Vick has not shown that he’s growing after the first four games. If he has, I missed it. Seems as though he’s running more instead of reading the defense and finding mis-matches.

  144. 144 anon said at 10:00 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    What about let’s see what Vick can do in the system, it’s practically made for him. Kelly needs a mobile QB to open up running lanes so shady can have 500 yds through 5 games, which opens the passing lanes giving djax the same amount of yds. there’s always opportunity cost.

  145. 145 Jerry Goldstein said at 1:08 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    An absurd comment. If the system is MADE for Vick then why is he just doing “OK”? I guess it’s a step up from atrocious, which is what he was last year. Is that all a perfect system does for Vick? Upgrades him from atrocious to OK?

    Shady McCoy is an excellent running back and to say he could only be doing so well because we have Vick is a disservice to Shady. Throughout NFL history there have been explosive running games with pocket passers. This argument doesn’t hold water.

  146. 146 anon said at 9:05 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    My point was you can’t fire a guy and replace him with someone performs about the same — how does that make all the other starters feel about their jobs?

    The stuff about winning I don’t think i buy, without those 4 turnovers we don’t win this game and we’re probably having a different conversation. I really only put 1 loss on Vick (KC). There’s no way we beat denver and SD was b/c of bad D, bad time management and a missed FG.

    Vick has played worlds better this year than last year and is doing pretty great considering the weapons. Thankfully in this game TEs caught the ball, there were no o-line penalties that took away TDs and the D got 4 takeaways, you can’t say that about any other game we’ve played so i think it’s unfair to say Vick isn’t a winner, it’s not like Foles beat all odds to come away with the win — it’s a team game.

  147. 147 eagleyankfan said at 9:10 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    That’s fair re: Vick. Let’s ask though, we know the Giants are brutal defensively. Vick have any TD passes vs. a brutal defense or was he “running” all the time? Did Foles have 2 td throws? It’s ok to say Celek got lucky(because I was surprised he caught it too)…but one could say — Foles put the ball in a place where only Celek could catch it. Maybe even a throw Vick couldn’t make.

  148. 148 anon said at 9:57 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    we had rushing tds, i think those are worth 7 too, somehow we put up 16 without passing. how many rush yds / rush tds did we have with Foles? But you know what? Who cares. we won, that’s all that matters to me.

  149. 149 GEagle said at 9:13 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    How did benching Alex smith for an unproven kid, when Alex was playing well and DIDT lose the job work out for the eventual NFC east Champs last year?
    You know what kind of message that sends? No play is ever safe! Mind you Ps and Qs at all times because starting today, doesn’t guarentee you a start next week…

  150. 150 anon said at 9:57 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    that’s funny, b/c at best Foles is Alex Smith so your analogy is sort of backwards.

  151. 151 Jerry Goldstein said at 1:11 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    Why are you wasting you prescience on football when there are world problems in need of solving?

  152. 152 eagleyankfan said at 1:22 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    Maybe Foles IS Alex Smith and can be successful?

  153. 153 Jerry Goldstein said at 1:10 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    When you have two QBs that are capable of running the offense in similarly effective ways do you go with the guy that is 33 and will be gone next year or the guy that is 23 and still has 2 years on his rookie contract?

  154. 154 GEagle said at 9:19 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    And I would rather see OK from a kid who is still growing, and isn’t even close to being a finished product, then seeing OK from a stop gap band aid on the down swing of his career….

    Sorry but when an inexperienced kid comes in out passes the ball better then our 1-3 33yr old veteran, I want to see more out of the kid….I have even defended Vicks play this year…but I just watched a kid with Moxy and poise! come in the game Cold, with limited practice reps and show promise when our QB couldn’t complete passes against a bad secondary

  155. 155 eagleyankfan said at 9:28 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    You mean the guy who came in and threw a red-zone TD to DJ? I’m with you. He could have easily tanked this game coming in fresh off the bench. Instead, we saw some poise.

  156. 156 Joseph Dubyk said at 9:43 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    good post

  157. 157 Jerry Goldstein said at 12:03 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    Foles was benched last year? When was that? The last game he missed with a broken hand? That’s not a benching.

  158. 158 Joseph Dubyk said at 9:42 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    eaglesyank you’re making too much sense , quit it!!!!!

    For real though, this is what I was saying in preseason… Chip Kelly’s 1st mistake was thinking he could change Vick into a good passer… He will make many more rookie college mistakes, just hopes he just makes them year 1

  159. 159 Jerry Goldstein said at 12:01 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    Tommy liked Foles last year but has given in to the Vick lovers decree that you cannot criticize their God-King and if you like Foles but not Vick you are a racist. Tommy used to be legit.

  160. 160 eagleyankfan said at 9:25 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    What to make of this TB team? Winless. Sent their QB packing. A coach that people are raising questions about. Coming off a by week. Have a stud wr in VJ.(drops some balls for a stud) and have a stud rb. This is a great match up. Can’t wait for this game. Will DJ get “Revis’d”? If so, who steps up on offense?

  161. 161 Tom33 said at 9:36 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Not to mention a defense that held Brees to 16 points and Brady to 23.

    I hope the Eagles can put 20-24 points on the board and win. It’s not a gimme though.

  162. 162 P_P_K said at 10:52 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    No, it is not a gimme. They have their backs against the wall in their own house. Except for the NE games, they have lost by close margins. This game could go either way.

  163. 163 Joseph Dubyk said at 9:40 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Vick has regressed big time the past 3 games. No TDs, low completion %, HORRIBLE RED ZONE passing, etc…. I don’t think Foles has to play super crazy to win the job.

  164. 164 Joseph Dubyk said at 9:57 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    But the fact remains since teams have gone to man coverage single high
    safety, Vick is 33-71 (46%), 1 TD, 3 turnovers (last 3 games).

  165. 165 Jerry Goldstein said at 1:14 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    Yeah b-b-but he won da competishun!!!

  166. 166 Joseph Dubyk said at 1:54 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    haha…and he can run fast too!!!! screw it, put Vick back in!

  167. 167 fran35 said at 2:09 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    He bout ta get dat swag back.

  168. 168 Joseph Dubyk said at 9:46 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Kelly got SEVERAL rude awakenings in the NFL. One of them was trying to take a mediocre QB and make him your star QB because he can run… And everyone says “Well, because Vick can run he makes the running game better! He fits Chip’s offense.!”

    Let me say this.. If Chip can’t establish a running game with a conventional QB. then hes not an offensive genius, he’s just a college coach and he should stay in the college ranks. Otherwise, use your “genius” to figure this thing out.

  169. 169 Tom33 said at 10:17 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Favorite things to do —
    1. File my taxes
    2. Go to the dentist
    3. Read the comments section on the Foles/Vick debate.

    Seriously, I think there is a huge “grass is greener” mentality here. Not just Vick/Foles, but also the QB position in general.

    If you could have your pick, how many teams really have a better option? Half? If you then factor in age and eliminate guys like Peyton, Brady, Brees/Romo/etc, what’s left? Less than 5 proven guys (Rogers, Ryan, Stafford (?), Cam (?), …) and some young guys who still have to demonstrate they are more than potential.

    I don’t understand why you can then expect that the results would be different with a new guy coming out of college. Sure, somebody will turn out to be a good/great player, but more will turn out to be someone who doesn’t make it. And unless you find the next Peyton, I’m sure everyone will still find faults with and hate on that guy (Eli, Schaub, Romo, Rivers the past couple of years,…). Or we could hope to get someone as good as #5 was, and then we’d be just as happy with that person as we were then, right?

    So, why not just sit back and let this play out without all the back and forth internet hate? Unless I’m wrong, I don’t think Bel Biv Devoe, GEAGLE, or any of the other guys that post regularly with strong opinions are going to read a post and change their mind. They’re probably not the ones making the decision, either. So, can’t we just have a Rodney King moment here for a week or 2 and see what happens with Foles in for an injured Vick? It will make reading the comments much more enjoyable and enlightening. After that, the debate can resume with even more “facts” at the disposal of both sides.

    Or not, but at least I tried.

  170. 170 Corry said at 10:48 AM on October 8th, 2013:

    Wait wait wait…Bel Biv Devoe posts in this blog? I loved those guys!

  171. 171 Tom33 said at 1:59 PM on October 8th, 2013:


    now ya know.

  172. 172 fran35 said at 2:11 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    HAHA. Best. Post. Of. The. Day.

  173. 173 GermanEagle said at 2:18 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    No offense, but can we please stop these Vick/Foles articles. I think the Eagle has been beaten to death and I rather not do my tax return tonight. *jk

  174. 174 Iskar36 said at 2:48 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    I understand the frustration of having the same conversations with people in the comments section about Vick/Foles, especially because it seems everyone has a view one way or the other and is unwilling to budge from that view. Still, regardless of which view point you have, the QB conversation is probably the most important one in regards to this team moving towards the future. Whatever happens there, whether it is Vick, Foles, Barkley, a draft pick, FA, or trade (or UDFA, just so I’m covering all basis…) will have a very significant impact on the team. So while rehashing the same conversation over and over may not be great, I can’t blame Tommy for writing about it, particularly when the conversation becomes relevant.

  175. 175 A_T_G said at 3:02 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    Oh, I see how it is. You are just dismissing Sopoaga’s chances before the competition even takes place? And don’t give me those trite stereotypes about him either. Those are just perpetuated by the media. Just because he is Hawaiian does NOT mean he is going to get his receivers laid out.

  176. 176 Iskar36 said at 3:05 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    Haha, damn it. I knew I was forgetting someone. I was considering added Lane Johnson to the list, but figured we still needed him at tackle before we can add him to the QB competition…. guess I forgot Sopoaga. I mean… we all know he has the arm strength, right?

  177. 177 anon said at 3:10 PM on October 8th, 2013:

    he’ll be tough to sack

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