The Biggest Pieces
Posted: December 1st, 2016 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 294 Comments »You need 2 things to win in the NFL…the right coach and the right QB. You can question Carson Wentz’s ceiling, but it should be obvious to just about everyone that he is very talented and can at the least be a good starter. Things are less certain with Doug Pederson.
I like Pederson. I think he’s done a good job this year. I certainly don’t agree with all of his decisions, gameday or otherwise, but I think he’s been more right than wrong this season. There are a few key things you have to keep in mind. First, one of the reasons he was hired was to change the atmosphere in the building. The organization had lost the family/friendly vibe under Chip Kelly. Jeffrey Lurie and Andy Reid worked hard for years to build that up and it was important for Lurie to find a coach who could help restore that. I think Pederson has done a good job of that.
Pederson was asked to have the team compete right away. Many new coaches love to change players and rebuild the roster right away. That let’s them find “their guys” and build the team how they want it. Pederson inherited a team that was too good to rebuild. He embraced the players that were already in Philly. Think about the starting lineup in the season opener of 2015 vs 2016. There weren’t many changes. The coaching staff kept an open mind, even with disappointing players like Marcus Smith and Josh Huff. Pederson and his assistants brought out the best in some players over the summer.
The other big item for Pederson was to draft and develop a QB. Obviously this is something Pederson probably already wanted to do, but with Sam Bradford and Chase Daniel in place you could see a coach possibly not wanting to use a lot of draft resources to add another QB. Pederson quickly fell in love with Carson Wentz as a prospect and was all-in on going up to get him.
If you simply focus on the W-L record, Pederson gets a C or something in that range. I think Lurie and Howie Roseman are looking at the big picture and all that was asked of Pederson. As much as they want him to win this year, they also know developing Wentz is the biggest thing that will help the Eagles to get back to being one of the best teams in the league. So let’s talk about that.
Wentz is on pace to throw 570 passes this year. Donovan McNabb only threw more than that once in his career, and that came when he threw 571 in his 10th season. It seems crazy to have Wentz throw that much when you consider that Eagles receivers are not having a great year and the offensive line has had four different starting lineups and we’re not even in December yet. Just run the ball, play good defense and try to keep games close, right? Not if you’re trying to test/teach/develop a QB.
I wrote my PE.com column on Pederson’s efforts to develop Wentz.
We’ll review Wentz in-depth once the season is over. For now I’ll put it in simple terms. Carson Wentz isn’t like any other rookie QB I’ve ever seen play for the Eagles. He reminds me of Donovan McNabb from the 2000 season, but that was Year 2 for Donnie Mac. More current guys like Kevin Kolb, Nick Foles and Matt Barkley pale in comparison. Forget about just the physical stuff. I’m talking about overall performance. And remember that Wentz was the #3 QB throughout the offseason.
Back to Pederson for a minute. One thing that hurts him is his PCs. He seems like a genuinely good guy and he wants to be honest. He wants to answer questions. Pederson does an awful job of answering questions at times. Somewhere between his brain and his vocal chords, things get lost in translation and he gives some bizarre answers. He also tries to be Mr. Positive in the PCs. “I’m gonna love on him” is an answer that should never be used again. Save that for when your kids screw up, not your millionaire employees. I don’t want Pederson to turn into Bruce Arians and start ripping players, but he does need to choose his words more carefully. Fair or not, coaches are judged by fans and the media and that perception can be important.
I think you can already see enough signs that Wentz is the right QB. We probably won’t have a real good feel for Pederson until after the 2017 season. I’m cautiously optimistic, but next year should offer more proof, one way or the other.
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” ‘I’m gonna love on him’ is an answer that should never be used again. Save that for when your kids screw up, not your millionaire employees.”
Man I haven’t laughed that hard in weeks. Good point.
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Wentz’s performance has really eased the transition to a new coach this year. Doug has had his ups and downs, especially in PCs and brain-fart game decisions, but he’s done well at adjusting from mistakes and has a great opportunity in front of him to grow as a coach with the chance to groom a franchise quarterback.
have we made two guys head coaches that should be OCs?
今天办公室里几个男女在讨论用避孕套的好处和坏处，男方坚决抵制避孕套，女方大力支持使用避孕套，双方各持一词不分伯仲，这时我们办公室一个大姐问我平日用套套吗？我说:我……我…我都是包皮打个结。当时讨论就结束了。
I think for me it also stings less this year because we were supposed to just be competitive and this is no longer the NFCLeast.
Giants might be the worst 8-3 team I have ever seen but the cowboys and redskins are legitimately good teams. NFC East has somehow become the best division in football and our 2nd place schedule of Seahawks and Atlanta is pretty brutal. Think we will end up having the toughest strength of schedule I’m the nfl by a significant distance.. even having played the 0-16 Browns.
Id say the AFC West is the best in football. Good point about strength of schedule….we had a cupcake week one and ever since then it seems every opponent is really good every week.
Some might point to the cup cake Dallas has faced. Even so, they have done their job. Kudos to Dallas I guess. It’s not like they had to face Seattle in Seattle….
should have had Case Keenum and the Rams in London. Thanks Pat Shurmur
Ehh, I wouldn’t mind running more when we are only down one score with over a full quarter left to go (and our defense can’t get a stop).
Seriously, they only ran the ball twice after Wentz’s interception in the 3rd quarter. That’s ridiculous. We need a “Strip Doug of Playcalling” movement.
Yeah, I saw “Not if you’re trying to test/teach/develop a QB,” and immediately thought *other than Russel Wilson or Ben Roethlisberger*. Heck, I don’t think Dak is as good as Carson, but he may end up being the better pro, because he *is* being developed correctly. Not too much on his plate. Let the OL and run game dictate. Only have to get creative in the passing game occasionally.
So far, it doesn’t seem to be destroying Wentz. But these game plans are exactly how you ruin a rookie QB’s confidence (and possibly body). I understand that the Eagles’ OL and RB positions are horrible, but perhaps that’s something they should have thought of before deciding to start Wentz this season. My biggest hope for the season is still that Wentz makes it out healthy and confident.
For this reason, I wouldnt mind the draft going CB-OL-RB or any rearrangement of that order. They have to understand Carson needs help, its obvious. Give him the most help possible with more line protection and another RB to run the ball. On another note, I wish Smallwood would get more touches because he does look to have some skills out there.
and keep the same WR’s?
I believe we have the 1st pick in the 4th, so that may be a good spot to grab a WR with a veteran in FA.
we need first round talent
This may be the best summary of this team honestly. Just don’t have the game changers. I agree also with what you said about Lurie sending mixed messages about competing now but also wanting to rebuild.
I’m with you on oline and cb being much higher need that wr. Though, I don’t see rb as being a need. I think if the last game showed me anything it’s that Wentz can make mediocre WRs who can actually catch a football look good enough to win games. What he really needs is some friggin protection.
Sounds like the experts don’t expect it to be a good OL year. Hopefully that changes, because honestly, 1st rd OL is best case scenario for me. Usually not a big fan of 1st rd RBs, but would be okay with it this year if the evaluations warrant it. I have a feeling that CB is going to be a “make-do” position (ala LB in Andy’s regime) in Schwartz’s scheme. If the evaluations work out, they could go that way, but I think they’d rather focus their resources elsewhere.
I think Howie’s going to have to work some of his unconventional magic again this year. They’re going to sign/trade for some value WRs and perhaps (if possible) a relatively splashy OL. Maybe a vet value RB, but I think RB will definitely get at least a day two pick, no matter what. Other than that, (and QB, DT, and safety), there’s no position that wouldn’t be made better by a playmaker. They’ll be in good position to really take the BPA in the mid to late first.
I think its an easier pill to swallow if the RB is 20 or later. If the pick is higher than that maybe CB or OL. How about just BPA like Anon posted below!
Not a fan of the current “coddle” movement that has embraced the US. I think Wentz should have been named the starter once he was drafted. Rams should have done the same thing. These two young men will be fine. No hugging needed. No hand holding or no camp fire singing. No evidence to support ‘coddling’ or throwing them in the fire just my opinion.
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I’ll never understand the “so far” and “destroying” comment. Egads. If Wentz can’t handle adversity then the Eagles drafted the wrong guy.
Well, that’s fine. It’s a post-fact world. But reality and history show that QBs can and do get gunshy when they get annihilated by 300 pound men who sprint faster than 99% of the human population. They begin to hear footsteps. Their eye-level starts to drift down. This is not a conscious process. It’s like touching a hot coal. You do it once, and you’ll have an involuntary reaction the next time the opportunity arises.
QBs in the NFL have an awful lot on their plates as rookies. Very few of them are ever successful. And a lot of that has to do with how they’re developed in my opinion. It’s not “coddling.” It’s about actually acknowledging reality. Again – I understand. The “reality-based world” is passé again. But I prefer it to the alternative.
Teaching bad habits = good
That said, I have had misgivings about Lurie’s desire to recreate a family atmosphere ever since Chip was fired. Andy didn’t have to be the cuddly teddy bear until after he was allowed to establish a rep for strict discipline. Doug is coming in having to “balance” this right from the get go. I put quotes on “balance” because the context indicates that there is a finger on one side of the scale. Can’t say there’s causation there, but the empirical results from the season (and off-field stuff) certainly don’t dispel my concerns that discipline has suffered from these circumstances.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/96/95/4d/96954d0f38c240f72564e27bef42d933.jpg
As much as WR is a need, we really need to focus on shoring up the OL for the future. Keeping Peters is fine, but we need to invest in good backups. Lane is one strike away from being out of the league. I wouldn’t be opposed to going LT in round 1.
We already saw the drop in efficiency when Lane left. We had to change our offense to help on that side.
Weak draft for OL. Not bad at the top for skill players. OL and WR in Free Agency for me; WR and CB, along with edge rusher and Center in the mid rounds if the draft falls that way. I’m sure RB will be addressed as well with Mathews saving 4M if cut. Very deep draft at RB.
Pederson has been alright. He’s playing with a rookie QB who played 23 games at North Dakota State. He lost his probowl RT, had to play with a 5th round rookie, and then lost him for the season. Kelce’s play has been erratic and the team has no offensive weapons other than a 33 year old Sproles. Agholor was a a disappointment last year and DGB was a cast away by the Titans. Ertz is probably just a mediocre TE, and the interior of the OL can’t be relied on to get a push at the LOS.
At most you can fault him for being over-agressive. I know some people didnt like the screen call against Dallas or the QB draw on 4th down vs NYG. But those plays only look bad in hindsight. They might have been good calls in theory that were blown up by exceptional plays by the opposing D.
Ertz is really the big disappointment among the playmakers. We already knew what we had, but Ertz was paid like a pro-bowl TE. Not sure he’s even top 15 right now.
His salary puts him at 6th in the league (not taking into account any bonuses, etc).
In 2014, he was 11th in yards for a TE; in 2015, he was 7th.
In 2016, he is 2-3 yards/catch worse, and currently 21st in yards. I kind of assume that’s more on Wentz/play design than him.
I’ll give you some of that, but the lack of broken tackles is alarming.
that’s just not who he is. he’s a possession TE. By far the best hands on the team. Vastly improved at blocking. We’ve probably forgot what a bad TE looks like in philly.
Keith Jackson might argue the reverse.
Last really good receiving TE this team had. Bavaro was still a very good blocker but he wasn’t the same caliber receiver by the time he got here.
Lewis and Celek had their moments but they weren’t real weapons that other teams to really worry about let alone double team.
He’s a mid-tier guy getting paid top-tier dollars. That is the only issue with Ertz. That his he has had his share of injuries the last few years. Not missed that much time but he is banged up a lot.
All TE gest banged up, Gronk, Graham, it’s a tough/physical position to play. When he was used as a primary target last year he was capable of putting up 100yds a game. Think a big problem is that since the OL sucks TEs have to block otherwise see no excuse for him not being the most targeted player on the team.
Fair point but he has one game where his production is really above average usually coupled with a few underwhelming ones.
Not that I feel like defending him all that much, but he also suffered a pretty serious injury early in the season. It shouldn’t make that big of a difference, but it might be a contributing factor along with those you identify.
You bring up a good point- play design.
If we know our WR’s suck (they do) how do we not scheme to go TE heavy? Or, are we doing so, but opposing defense’s are keying on the TE passing game?
He isn’t if you look at any of the numbers based on production right now. Some of that is due to time missed but he has been disappointing this year too.
no one on the offense has numbers you can be proud of, it’s a losing team.
Thank you Tommy for clarifying that we are NOT a team in rebuild mode. Yes, anytime you start a rookie QB it indicates your offense will undergo some changes and experience growing pains. However, I believe Wentz has exceeded expectations and is playing at or above the level as Sam Bradford. If Sammy was our starting QB would we be talking about being in rebuild mode? Furthermore, would we be more/less critical of the teams overall performance. My guess is that we would be ripping the team more.
All this to say I don’t believe we need to go crazy with negative comments. We don’t. But when you talk rebuild it gives players a pass to not perform at optimal levels. We have far, far too many proven and highly compensated vets to set such low expectations. I don’t know how anyone who has watched all our games this year can honestly say they are pleased with the results thus far. Wentz is one of the few bright spots. I had no delusions of greatness for this team and am still optimistic for our future, but we are certainly not in rebuild mode.
So you’re saying — you had no expectations of this team because of the rookie qb(and rookie coach) and that you’re optimistic about the future. (rebuilding or status quo? Either one…). Since there are so many new coaches you can call it a “let’s see what we have in the players this year”. I guess that’s ok but that leads too 2017…(see below)
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No team, in the history of the nfl, comes out and says they are rebuilding. No team in the history of the NFL drafts and starts a QB and says we’re NOT competing this year.
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T-law goes on to say “too good”….I won’t call him delusional, just mis-guided hope :). Spring of 2017 we’ll find out “how good” the players were from last year, that are still on the team in 2017. In 2017 we should see a lot more turnover in the roster than 2016. Coaches will have a better feel for what they want(and who they don’t want).
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Call 2016 whatever you’d like. 100% agree with T-law – 2017 is extremely important. Handful of players(and a few coaches) need to be questioned about ability…
Something I am often remiss in not saying: good read Tommy, always refreshing to read perspectives that aren’t based purely on generating clicks but on explaining insights into the game and off-field action in a relatable way.
“Pederson inherited a team that was too good to rebuild.” — I don’t agree with that at all. This years performance is my evidence. Very few players with talent doesn’t = too good to rebuild. Mix that with players you expected to play well are playing below their anticipated skill level = a below .500 team….
Your last point undermines your first. If players expected to play well are playing below their skill level, then TL is right, and your HC hire is getting paid to change that. I don’t think anybody disagrees with your first point, but I think we are all angry, disappointed, flummoxed by the repeated mental errors and gaffes which is a reflection n the HC in large part.
The team already had a good dline in place, one good LB, one good S… to which they added another good LB and another good S. This defense is one good CB away from consistently looking good week in and week out. The other thing the defense needs is some young blood on the dline.
On offense, Pederson and Lurie misjudged the quality of Peters and assumed they had 2 high end OTs. The interior oline was weak, but they tried to fix that with Brooks in FA. I don’t think anyone was ready to argue that RB isn’t a strength, and prior to the season people seemed to assume that Agholor was an unknown quantity with potential, and the rest of the WR corpse was pretty bad. This draft we need to get 2 oline, and maybe get another one in FA (we should have acquired Mitchell Schwartz in last year’s FA pool ((and yes I know that means you let Peters walk or trade him, but I think that would have been better for this team))).
If this team had stayed healthy, and drug free… they would still easily be in the playoff hunt. Wentz isn’t good enough yet to work with the depleted offensive resources available and still pull out the win, and like I mentioned in the first paragraph this defense is a good unit that has had a couple bad games.
I LOVE what you did: wide receiver corpse! Never was a typo so profoundly correct.
They still need an elite DE pass rusher – Graham, Curry, Barwin and Smith are not it. They need 2 good CB IMO and another good coverage LB. Teams continue to eat us alive since our rush does not get home enough and our coverage is mediocre to poor.
I’d love to see the team come up with 2 good CBs in one off-season, but I’m not sure if that’s possible. I have no problem adding a talented DE, but with the current rank of 11 overall in sacks and 17 overall in rushing yards allowed I think these guys are doing a good job. There’s always room for improvement.
We did it with Lito and Brown in the same draft. Its not impossible and isn’t that why Roseman et al. get paid the big bucks? Shouldn’t we have high expectations or find someone else who can do better? Sick of the excuses to be honest.
The point is we need 2 good CB starters to have the consistently strong defense we all want especially in today’s pass first game.
One of the main reasons why our pass rush is not consistent is we lack that elite pass rusher. Think how Von Miller impacts a game etc. They are hard to find, but can you imagine pairing an elite DE with Graham on the other side and Logan & Cox in the middle. Now you’re talking better production and consistency. We were hoping Curry was that guy, but it does not appear so unfortunately.
I think Pederson’s challenge may be as complex and difficult as his rookie QB’s. Wentz has DP and others to lean on, learn from and, by-default, blame and shame when things go sideways. The buck stops at HC, and expecting Doug to get a feel for all of the hats the HC wears, AND bring along his pupil may be a bit much. As has been pointed out numerous times, there is scant depth across the roster, and a few too many 2nd tier talents in starting roles.
I know that DP was an Andy Reid acolyte, but I don’t know if Doug is as organizationally competent as his mentor. Reid could focus on play design and tutor DMAC and set a serious but positive tone for player execution accountability. He had his flaws and his team had its share of bad performances, but those usually felt like aberrations rather than standard fare. I think this is where Doug and Howie and Joe Douglas need to be in each others’ heads. Reid was a bit dogmatic about passing first, and Doug doesn’t feel like he’s strongly committed to any particular strategy for his offense. A dogmatist is inherently more detailed and specific than a more flexible person, but the former is likely to settle for less.
Many of us were chagrined by the games that appeared ripe for running and we didn’t. That was when AR seemed unable or unwilling to adequately adapt, but I reckon he felt that veering away from his core convictions was admitting defeat. So Doug needs to know exactly the player types, both athletically and mentally, that can thrive in his game plan. Personally, I hope he is fond of running early and often. That might put a player like Jason Kelce on the outs, but JK has had a fine career, and his best performances may be in the rearview. (Sorry for rambling.)
If we are being honest about where the team is at this year, even fans like myself who thought we should compete for the division title this year expected the division to be bad again, with the Eagles hopefully sneaking in the playoffs winning a bad division with 9 wins..
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But if you told all The fans that thought we would contend for the divisipn that our rivals were going to win 10-12 games, I doubt many people would have still had playoff aspirations going into this season..
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At best this Eagles team was going to sneak into the playoffs after winning a weak division….. To almòst everyone’s surprise the NFC East is one of the top divisions in the league and I don’t know how many eagke fans would have thought that this years team would have been able to win one of the toughest divisions in the league..
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Lane Johnson needs to take his share of the blame after this team has been on a steady decline since he was suspended. Lane has a lot of work to do making it up to playërs, coaches and fans
Everybody including Lurie himself refused to use the ‘rebuilding’ term but it was even before trading for the pick and drafting Wentz.
I’m board with the general outline and strategical thinking especially drafting Wentz and trading Bradford. It is not only going to rely upon Pederson being the right coach (give him a C+ so far with the only games where I thought he did a poor job were the Giants’ game and the Seahawks’ game) but most importantly Roseman giving it in the draft especially with their high draft picks.
They can’t afford to have a real dud in the 1st round the next 2 years if they want to contend in 2 years.
Think Lurie is a big part of the problem. Instead of doing rebuilding Lurie wants to compete every year so there’s always this mixed thing going on.
Agreed. Although they did it with the Wentz & Bradford moves. The bigger issue was all of the contracts & extensions that Roseman gave out last season.
We needed a QB. It’s funny previously Howie says “teams that trade up generally lose out”, last year “let’s trade 2 drafts for Wentz”.
EVen with Bradford trade it’s like ok Sam’s our QB we aren’t rebuilding, we “retooled” for the 3yrd straight year and approached the season as legit contenders in the division. Then bradford trade came along and it was like oh – i guess we are rebuilding, except chase daniel is so bad you have to start wentz.
Then we win 3 games and it’s like no this team is legit we’re not rebuilding. Then we lost 6-8 and then we’re like well of course this team is rebuilding, we’re looking at the future, who wants to be here?
To me the much bigger issue than Lurie or Pederson is Roseman. He had a very mixed track record here especially in the draft.
As the season has unfolded, a lot of his moves last offseason can be second-guessed too.
The way the division looked going into the season, it was too tempting not to try to compete.
But this isn’t the NBA. You can find great talent with mid first round picks. Also trading up for the #2 pick to draft QB and getting rid of Bradford is pretty much rebuilding. What would you have done differently?
It’s just semantics. You never tell your team you are rebuilding, because you’re telling them you’re wasting their season.
You’re a Bradford supporter. If we were all in this year we keep him, we dumped him for a draft pick. How much further should we have gone?
I guess I just don’t see a differentiation in the actual “get better” formula. Work on what you can with what you have, add as much talent as you can when you can.
I don’t really see any aging commodities who had trade value on our team. Anything more than that you are just cutting people to replace them with other people nobody wants. What moves should we have made to go all the way rebuild mode in your opinion.
It’s a shame that we won’t be playing meaningful football in December again especially after the 3-0 start and having Minnesota’s pick.
Not meaningful for 2016. If we see the young players improve, it will have value.
I’m also interested to see how this team does in the NFC rematches especially vs Redskins & Giants.
First game vs Giants was one of the worst coaching performances by the head coach and staff I can remember by this team over the past decade. Curious to see what adjustments Pederson makes.
Ditto on coming out and playing better early on. Pederson specifically mentioned it this week a few times. This team on both sides of the ball has been coming out flat since the Pittsburgh game.
We’re going to get smacked. Skins have had our number for years, and that’s before they had Jamison Crowder – who looks like a beast.
Dallas – would love to keep that game close but they’re clicking on all cylinders right now.
Giants – winnable. On think CK was able to do was trounce the Giants twice a year. That said they’re 8-4 so…
“If we see the young players improve” Who? What first or second year player is really “coming on”. Jalen Mills? Vaitai?
You already mentioned two. DGB, Semalo, Vaeo, Marcus Smith, Burton, Agholor, Treggs, Terrence Brooks, Jalen Watkins.
Part of the process is finding out who will quit, and who will fight until the last whistle.
Happens man- building for the next year; our 3-0 start skewed expectations. If you would have told me at the beginning of the year we would have beaten the Steelers, Falcons and Vikings, I’d consider it a win. Our team needs to grow and develop. This takes time.
It’s a shame b/c browns have our what could be top 5 pick
We have a QB so its still worth it IMHO.
Need to really root for a Vikings’ epic collapse and a top 10 pick.
Not gonna happen. Their remaining schedule is pretty easy.
They should go at least 3-2. I’m hoping 1-4.
If Gary Kubiak can win a Super Bowl, then Doug Pederson seems good enough to get the job done. Bill Belichick aside, a genius head coach is not a prerequisite for a winning program. Solid game management and personal relationships count most.
As long as the Eagles get the equivalent of Ware, Miller, Talib, Harris, Ward, etc. – I think you are right. Same way Brian BIllick won in Baltimore.
Also need tremendous, o-line, demarius thomas and other WRs that can catch, etc. That team was stacked at every position, except QB.
Speaking of Kubiak – did you see him trying to decide what to do at the end of that OT period vs KC when he eventually tried the 62 yard FG? I think you could see the oil leaking out of his brain as he went through the various scenarios. Felt bad for the guy.
My prayers go out to Reno Mahe and his family after his 3-year old daughter died yesterday. #sad.
I read that she was hung. That’s the reason I put cord safety cleats up high and wrap the cords around them when the blinds are open. It’s devastating to think about something so terrible happening to a young child.
Tommy, not sure I like the throwing 40 passes a game is developing a QB narrative.
In the beginning of the year we ran the ball a lot, threw short passes (a lot of short passes), used Wentz’s old playbook, etc. That was bringing along a QB (sort of like Big ben).
My issue is that Wentz clearly has mechanical issues that affect his intermediate and deep ball passing as well as his bubble screen game. Throwing 40 times a game just reinforces those bad mechanics (and leads to a lot of turnovers). Seeing Wentz now with the training wheels off makes me understand why Pederson’s plan was what it was in the beginning. Think mentally wentz is there but he needs some time to fix his mechanics. Wonder if that’s harder throwing the ball 40 times a game.
Your argument is that an additional 200 throws over the course of a season is going to permanently ingrain mechanics in a 23 year old that will be irreversible.
Nah.
It’s eliminating overstriding and some tweaks to the motion.
This isn’t Tim Tebow. This is pretty common stuff.
Where have you been? Haven’t seen much of you recently. Don’t tell me you got a real job!
The Bleacher Report freelancing is eating up most of my Eagles related time.
I’m still lurking.
Where do his current mechanics fall on the spectrum of [Tim Tebow < Colin Kaepernick < … < Aaron Rodgers]
I think he’s closer to he AR spectrum, just happens that the downside of his mechanics (overthrows) are picks and i think teams are waiting on those balls now.
It’s all supremely fixable. He’ll never be Brees or Rodgers but you clean up the overstriding and shorten the motion just a tad and it’s not a problem.
The bubble screen issues are a combination on being a half tick slow on reading the RPOs (everybody screams about to many bubbles, but it’s RPOs not straight bubbles) and I’m not sure he’s getting a consistent target point from his WR’s.
why can’t he be Brees or Rodgers (or Ben) one day?
Accuracy.
you can make that comparison after 11 games? How many times did Ben even throw his first year.
I posted this summary of Ben’s first two seasons about 3 months ago:
Big Ben averaged 22 attempts per game for his first two seasons, and was
sacked a total of 52 times over those two seasons, or about 2
times/game. In his rookie year, he had exactly one game where his team
gained less than 100 yards rushing, and had 10 games where his team
gained more than 150 yards rushing. He had two games, including one
against the Eagles, where his team ran for over 220 yards. In contrast,
the Steelers had 12 games his rookie season where they passed for less
than 200 yards (there’s an issue with the stats here that I don’t have
the time to suss out, but I’ll note that Ben didn’t play in 2 games that
season, and played only part of another; some of those passing stats
may belong to other QBs, but I don’t think it changes the ultimate
point.) So when Ben was developing, the Steelers were very conservative
with the passing game, and relied heavily on the run game, and didn’t
expose him to hits or situations that could have really attacked his
confidence.
It’s actually a pretty safe bet to say he’ll never be as accurate as Brees or Rodgers or as effective as Ben. Very few will be.
48 QBs have been taken in the 1st two rounds since 2004. How many of them are as good as those guys? Scroll down the list below. (spoiler: none)
http://www.newsday.com/sports/football/nfl-draft-how-these-48-qbs-have-done-1.2829033
He’s never going to have laser accuracy, also those two probably have the two quickest releases in history.
How many extra sacks / pressures does it take for a person to get gun shy?
This was the whole reason we were going to take the Aaron Rodgers approach.
He’s not getting plowed under. Even on Monday he had decent enough protection.
I think there’s at least some level of biological influence on this. For example, I’m convinced Brett Favre had some sort of impairment that didn’t let his body develop subconscious aversions.
I’m only half-joking about that, too.
HC and QB are two very important elements, but the others again are those involved in evaluating, acquiring and developing the talent. The first two fall into the scouts, analysts and GM buckets and the third one falls on the HC, but also position coaches and fellow players.
Yes, we let DJax go for nothing and Maclin left for the big bucks, but another big part of that problem is the guys we’ve selected at the WR position, with the exception of Matthews, have flopped. Algholor, Huff, Austin, Randle, Givens etc. So it is the combo of questionable personnel decisions AND bad talent evaluation and/or development.
Yes, we traded McCoy for less than he was worth (Kiko), but the guys brought in at that position, with the exception of Sproles, have also been largely disappointing. Murray was a horrible fit for our offense and/or misused in the scheme. Matthews is good when healthy, but rarely healthy and largely one dimensional. Polk, Barner and Smallwood are not headliners. It was tthe combination of poor personnel decisions coupled with questionable talent evaluation and acquisition.
For Pederson and Wentz to matter and have a legit chance to succeed here, those problems need to be fixed. Roseman, Douglas, the scouts, the analysts, the position coaches et al. need to prove they can evaluate, acquire and develop talent consistently.
Starts w/ oline. Run game look great when OL is great (See atlanta game, first 3 games of the season). No oline cant run, can’t pass.
Agreed, but…
Who evaluates which OL the Eagles should pursue? What are those evaluations based on? Are we a run first ball control offense? Pass first big play offense? Hybrid? What skills do Eagle OL all need to have to succeed here?
Who is in charge of acquiring those OL? Is it via FA? Draft? UDFA? Trade? Are there home grown options we could extend instead? How are these decisions made? What are the criteria for choosing one over the other? What are the cap implications? What needs to change on the current roster to make room for these OL?
Who is responsible for developing those OL? HC? Position coaches? Player mentors? All of the above? How are new players integrated into the Eagles? What is our team culture based on? Are we “loving up” these players? Or are we challenging them and holding them accountable consistently? What are the strategies and tactics deployed to help the talent develop?
Look at Roseman’s FA signings, contact extensions and draftees performances so far:
FA:
McKelvin – mediocre to poor. Carroll – mediocre to poor. Brooks (OG) – pretty good. Wiz – ok. Givens & Randle – horrible. Brooks (CB) – ok to mediocre. McLeod – good. Bradham – pretty good. Watkins – ok. Daniel – ok.
Contract Extensions:
Graham – good. Cox – pretty good. Curry – mediocre to poor. Ertz – ok. Johnson – ok (marked down due to 2nd PED suspension).
Draftees:
Smallwood – ok. Wentz – good. VItai – ok. Mills – ok to pretty good. Seumalo – TBD. Countess – gone. McCalister and Walker – IR, TBD.
Brooks (OG), Wentz, Cox, Graham, Bradham and McLeod are hits and Johnson will continue to be if he can keep his nose clean, 7 out of 24 so far. Several still have potential and/or are going through down years, but some were just bad choices.
Not terrible and 11 games is still a limited sample size, but there is room for improvement IMO.
Way too early to judge this draft class, at least the guys that are still here.
I would even hold on judging Howie this year. Wait till next year after the staff has had a full season to evaluate the team, league and the (2017)draft.
Although its fair to point out some of the contracts look like bust right now.
Understandable position. Roseman is going to be here regardless so we’re going to get the chance to re-evaluate several times. To me, he has a very mixed record during his whole tenure here as both the main guy having final say (now in his second stint in that role) and working in collaboration with Reid who had final say. The only season Roseman was not involved at all was 2015 with Chip fully in charge.
McKelvin and Brooks were signings based on Schwartz’s input as he coached them in Buffalo. Don’t forget about Tulloch, the forgotten man.
He’s forgotten because he is cooked unfortunately. A total meh signing.
So, if Schwartz recommends a player, Roseman is not responsible for signing them? No, he has final sayand needs to do his diligence just like on every other player, make sure it is a good fit and has a high chance of success. Both have not panned out so far. That is on him.
Would you consider the Chase Daniel signing on Howie too?
Absolutely. Roseman has full control. There is no one he answers to except Lurie. He is responsible for what is done on his watch.
Again, just because Schwartz or Pederson recommend a player be acquired does not mean Roseman is allowed to abdicate his role and responsibilities.
The recommendation carries weight, sure, and some blame can be allocated to Schwartz or Pederson for putting the names forward if they flop, but, in the end, the buck stops with Roseman.
Even though he’s not the GM?
He has final say on the roster and personnel. He is the executive VP for football operations. In that capacity he also controls cap management, scouting, contract negotiations and sports science components for the organization plus working with Lurie on hiring/firing decisions. For example, he was deeply involved in hiring both Chip and Pederson. He is the GM+
counting folks like Givens and Randle in the denominator seems a little unfair. These are guys they took a flyer on. Is Carroll really poor given his contract?
Think he’s been a bit harsh. But to be fair we’ve tried high priced FAs, bargain basement FAs, high draft picks, low draft picks, secondary in philly i just a cursed unit.
true and it’s been less than stellar. But I think Howie has done a good job mining for mid level talent, sets up good contracts they can purge, and I think/hope that if you let him and Doug go at it for 2-3 years we will see a difference. I think it’s really hard to evaluate fairly when Chip (and maybe Howie was part of this, but if so at Chip’s behest) just so, so badly tilted the draft strategy.
Anyway, so I get it, there’s a lack of talent but I’m not going to bemoan it I’ll just go along for the ride. There’s enough other things for me to bemoan.
personally i think talent-wise were on par w/ a lot of other teams. Think (a) b/c of OL injuries and (b) WR underperformance the team looks bad. Ironically Sam left this team to go to the eagles of the midwest (good defense, no OL, no WRs).
Ray Rhodes is smiling. When he signed Troy Vincent and paired him with Bobby Taylor, with Dawkins between them, our secondary was rock solid…maybe the best in Eagles history.
and Michael Lewis who had good potential but chased the coin in SF and pretty quickly washed out. If Jenkins and McLeod can hold on and Mills can keep improving, we may be able to get a 2nd CB to complete the circle. Wish Rowe was still here.
This is a good draft for CBs. I wouldn’t mind double dipping
It is probably because they only need to cover our lowly receivers in practice.
From the reports I saw, they were brought in to push/challenge the young guns and help stabilize a weak position so we could get through this rebuild year in a less painful manner. They flopped on all counts and were cut before the season even started. They had none of the attitude, dedication or work ethic one would want to have around young impressionable talents. Bad personnel decisions IMO.
Bringing Carroll back when you already knew he was mediocre at best was I guess a “last resort” move. Sometimes you get what you pay for, he was cheap and available for very good reasons.
What is going to be the most important thing in terms of Rosemans off season actions this year, are the talent evaluators he brought in to manage the scounting and draft prep. We talk about these things as if though its Roseman himself who is sitting in the film room and writing out scouting reports on players, but of course its not. Drafting well doesnt require Roseman to have superior talent evaluation skills. It requires him to hire the people, who do. Wether he did that or not is a question ce can only begin to see answered after next season.
Agreed, which is why I mentioned the scouts and analysts several times in my above posts. Roseman is still responsible in the end for the decisions and results.
You’re not weighting things properly.
A Wentz hit is equivalent to a sixth round safety not making the team.
Givens and Randle got a combined like 500k guaranteed.
McKelvin’s bad and paid too much but it’s a one year rental.
Carrol costs peanuts and is a servicable starter, that’s solid.
The draft is about as well as could hope given lack of picks.
Jaylen was already back.
Curry’s deal sucks.
He had to massively churn the roster with two hands tied behind his back. He’s done way more good than bad this time around.
Oh and we got a 1 for Sleeves.
But again, some of the reasons hands are tied behind backs is due to Roseman’s own doing in his role as GM with final say in 2013, 2014 and 2016 not to mention deep involvement with the Dream Team and other mistakes earlier under Reid.
Part of the reason we had to “churn the roster” with so many FA and take “flyers” on others is due to the poor job of drafting, talent development, cap allocation and roster management.
The only year Roseman was not involved was 2015. Not everything is his fault, Chip did a good amount of damage in his one year in control, but Roseman is hardly blameless either and needs to be better moving forward.
The Dream Team had no long lasting impact.
The cap issues were because Chip lost his damn mind.
Chip also strongly impacted 13/14, because only choir boys from the Pac12 isn’t exactly Howie’s MO.
Howie’s not blameless, but Ozzie Newsome has had some poopy drafts the last five years, Bellicheck the GM has made life harder than need be on Bellicheck the coach, and the Packers would have had at least one more superbowl in the last decade if they weren’t so anti-FA.
Howie’s one of the best at strategy and trades. They’ve agressively brought in scouting talent. This isn’t 15 with a clueless czar and undermanned scouting department.
Wentz/Bradford go a long way but he has had a lot of ‘misses’ too and that was the issue here before both in the draft and especially in FA.
Not really that concerned about the 1-yr deals or late round picks either.
Roseman was always good at managing the cap & contracts but I still have serious doubts but him making the final say on player personnel. Certainly not the worst but far from the best either.
Peg him around 18-20 right now if you were grading and evaluating GM right now based on what they had done their last 3 years.
That’s what Douglas, Wiedl, Patch, and Mueller are for.
Scouting department is loaded up with experienced high level guys.
Who would have thought that we’d be missing McNabb’s worm burners one day. #sarcasm
I think we all knew it’s better to miss low.
The worst thing about 5 was when he’d start cold, and you’d just know he wasn’t going to be able to hit the broad side of a barn that day; but Andy was still going to dial up 40 passes, and we’d have 3 straight incompletions, or sometimes there’d be a crappy draw play on 2nd and 10…
You are absolutely correct. I remember that all too well.
When we still had season tickets, you could sometimes see in warmups whether he was accurate that day or not. Sometimes he was deadly and others he wouldnt be able to hit receivers standing still 20 yards away.
I love them a lot more than the Wentz passes that sail over the receivers heads.
We still get them from Wentz
I do not root for injuries just reporting news: Gronk had back surgery, out for about 8 weeks. Could be back for SB. Pats already used their IR returnee designation, so need to either IR him (and he’s done) or keep him on the 53. I’d keep him, it’s not like they won’t still get a bye with 52.
damn BB fucking w/ my fantasy team. Same think every year with Gronk.
Wow, that is just wrong!
what is wrong?
I just feel bad for them. And no, I don’t like them.
Ex-Jets RB Joe McKnight was murdered in the New Orleans area on Thursday afternoon. He tried out for the Texans in the summer of 2015. McKnight was a college star at USC, and an excellent NFL special teamer. He was only 28.
This is crazy to me. Can’t begrudge nfl players for carrying guns.
Reading between the lines of several news releases on this, it appears there is more than meets the eye in this situation. I guess we’ll find out in a few days.
Road Rage Murder in Nola. Sad
Okay, looking for a little pretend football advice. Pick 2:
Doug Martin vs SD
R. Jennings vs PIT
James Starks vs HOU
Rob Kelley vs ARI
I have the D. Martin and R. Jennings tandem in a league – let’s say it’s no bueno. I’d go with R. Jennings and Rob Kelley.
Think you got a feeling last week for James Starks’ performance.
18 team league?
There is another starting back who is a lock, but who I would rather not discuss.
A random thought came across my mind the other day:
Do you think it was the right decision to retire #5?
The number or the player? I think the team made the right move in both instances. Especially when you compare 5’s run to the seasons after (and before) it. If we were the patriots or the steelers maybe you don’t, but we aren’t them.
All those numbers wiil come back one day .. has to .. back as a premium number or elite.. ot something premiere like that.. generate extra resoect or revenue
Blasphemy
Nah, it will be the highest honor to wear a ‘retired’ number
Yes. I’m a fan. Dumb comments, worm burners, air guitars, etc. But I’m still a fan.
Me too .. surprised that Pederson has Wentz throwing more than AR overwhelmed DMac
More interesting is our de facto retirement of #12, especially considering Randall won a total of one playoff game with the team and departed under some pretty ugly circumstances.
And I do believe Jeffrey Lurie’s desire to mend fences with the face of his franchise during most of his tenure influenced the decision to a degree. I also wonder if the Eagles would make the same decision today, multiple DUIs later.
Legitimately very goodish great QB for an excellent team with sustained success. I still love 5.
Wow, saw this on BGN, did we really only have 7 drives the whole game?
what do we root for tonight? armageddon?
I’m rooting for Bane to destroy the stadium surface and send both teams into a bottomless pit of death.
Na i would wait till the Cowboys play the redskins for that to happen… although maybe it should be the Giants… a friend pointed out that winning games unconvincingly or random fluke plays is the MO of Eli superbowl winning campaigns… and the universe wants Eli to have 3x the SB wins of Payton.
But those games don’t also help the Vikings lose out.
Surely Bradford check downs on 3rd down should be able to take care of that?
I know i should root for dallas… but.. i.. just cant…
“You need 2 things to win in the NFL”
And the Eagles have neither. John Kruk has one.
zeke fumble, vikings ball
And he fell back on the ball but was too weak to maintain it on the ground. Soft player, soft college background, soft team, soft fan base.
official review? are u kidding/
BOOOOOOOOOOOO
but we should be rooting for the “boys” right?
That won’t be said out loud.
Well f*ck NO!
So I tried to weigh the benefits of who I want to lose tonight
Cowgirls losing is always a win in my book but even if they lose now the NFC standings most likely won’t change in the future anyway.
Vikings losing means that we have a higher chance of getting a better player so we can get better and beat the shit out of the Cowgirls…
Yeaaaaaa lets root for a tie.
F Dallas
So fucking tired of seeing Dak Prescott get to stand in the gott damn pocket for 4 or 5 seconds and throw to a wide fucking open Dez Bryant.
I believe that is directly related to how often and how successfully they run the ball. Most defenses, even a disciplined one like Minnesota, will cheat the pass rush to not get run over. It is disgusting, and I want the Eagles to replicate it.
Sigh i know we want the Vikings to loose, but i just cannot help cheering for whatever team the Cowboys are playing against. Its an instinctive gut thing – i tried to listen to my head but my heart hates the cowboys too much.
I was about to type this exact sentiment. It feels like rooting for your dog to get cancer so you will be able to stop paying a pet premium on your rent. Sure, it pays dividends in the long run, but it feels distasteful.
hahahahahahahahahahahah. Bring it back Hitchens!
Good ol’ Ced.
How many third downs has Bradford thrown short of the sticks tonight? At least three.
At least 50% of them. I certainly don’t miss that garbage.
A.L.E.X. (Air Less EXpected): A stat which “measures the average difference between how far a quarterback threw a pass (air yards) and how many yards he needed for a first down.”
Kessler #34
Bradford #30
Wentz #28
Brady #3
Rodgers #2
Rothlisberger #1
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/alex/2016/2016-alex-midseason-report
amazing stat
Good stat, poorly named. It should be called Short Against Must Make Immediate Expectation.
Named after Alex Smith, of course, who after years of competing with Sleeves decided to up and leave the throne and is ranked at #11 now!
The interesting stat from that page, to me at least, is the average need column. Very telling.
Hmm? Not really getting much out of that column, myself.
Dallas was holding big time on that last play.
Can we get some balls to Diggs? TIA
In relation with my earlier #5 post. I would have never raised that question if Donovan hasn’t made a complete fool out of his after retiring with football.
and bradford is injured.
So we won’t get a second round pick next year. Or are the conditions of our trade solely relating to the team success of the Vikings?
success
Well
If the Cowboys win the Super Bowl I might just quit watching football. Ever. Again.
i certainly wont get sunday ticket
eh who’m i kidding, i’ll get it no matter what. they have me by the balls
For me it depends on whether i have to see Kapernick kneeling every game (joke).
Imagine the Dak hype for a year?
Has been a dream of mine to drop everything and go teach diving around south east asia for a year or 2. Cowboys winning the SB would make that less of a dream and more of a necessary step… although frankly each day i am more tempted to go for 4 years….
I’m slow. Was that a reference to our fascist takeover? And, while I’m at it, how many southeast asians do you reckon are willing to pay to learn how to dive?
Slow mo that hit looked pretty bad
why cant dak get one of those shots
Great OL, and good pocket awareness and scramble ability makes him pretty hard to get on the floor…
That’s the worst thing about sleeves 0 pocket awareness. I couldn’t even put my fingers on it before, why so many sacks and sack fumbles, no pocket awareness
Another dumbass throw by Bradford
I cant stand dez, but he’s a star reciever, just imagine if the eagles had one reciever that could catch
Nah, only high character guys here. We had TO and couldn’t even handle him. Same w djax.
Third and 1 – they gotta run. No room to throw short of the sticks.
Cowgirls offence seems so weird tonight… feels like they can do what they want and yet they are at the end of the 3rd quarter pretty much with 7 points, 4 punts and TO and 186 yards total.
And yet, I want the Cowboys to win, as disgusting as that is.
If I was a member of the Minny defense, I would be absolutely disgusted with the offense after the number of opportunities they’ve given them. Unreal.
finally calling all these holdings against the cowboys
I want this set of referees for the rest of the year doing Eagles games. I know there is the ‘holding happens on every play’ claim people throw out but it drives me nuts watching Eagles rushers being held on every pass down and it not getting called.
Cris is coming dangerously close to speaking critically of Dallas.
One thing Dallas has definitely had this year is luck. They get so many things seem to just go their way, it’s incredible. This replay they’re about to overturn for example giving them the ball on the 10 yard line.
My bad. 8 yard line. Horseshoes shoved up their asses.
Can Captain checkdown lead the Vikings for 2 glorious field goals to win the game? I am feeling a last minute field goal miss to give the Cowboys this game.
That’s pretty much game.
I got to say, right now it feels a little greedy hoping for more than a first and fourth.
It was always better for us to have Vikings loose as many games as possible. 16th pick and a 4th, is worth more than the 32nd and a 2nd round pick.
You can always trade back and pick up a 2nd if you want it.
i think the 32nd and a 2nd might be a bit better than a mid 1st and a 4th, just from a value standpoint, but late 1st and a 3rd, definitely not worth it
The high 1st is always going to be the better value. Much better, in fact.
No, I think Fufina was correct. Remember, that second would be one pick away from the third round.
I worded t poorly, but my intent was to marvel at the robbery committed by Howie.
I’d have upvoted this if you had spelled “lose” correctly.
I’m happy that DAL will win this game. Just want to point out that giving that turnover to DAL, when the exact same thing happened to MIN earlier in the game is bogus. The ball carrier fumbles, goes to the ground, regains possession briefly, then the ball is stolen. That happened to Zeke and it happened to that MIN tight end. Yet DAL was awarded the turnover. BS.
dumb ref smh
Lucky ass cowboys
If they keep getting game altering calls their way through the playoffs, I refuse to watch the NFL until they do something about the refs. It’s getting ridiculous.
Good they did us a favor… Even if we don’t make the playoffs, for the sake of our draft pick I will root for every team to beat the Vikings..
..
What’s best for the Eagles has to trump my hatred of the Cowboys
man howie for prez. After his 3rd short of the sticks throw on 3rd down and All troughout the game i kept thinking …How did we manage to get a first for sammy B? It is getting clear now that unless he has a dallas caliber OL the guy just cant get it done. Great arm, probably great guy but..With that good of a defense and still nothing.. Always thought it was the system, tje lack of running game, the wr etc but no its the sleeves
My only regret is that we didn’t trade him to Dallas before the draft. They would have Romo and Bradford competing to steal the most money and would not have Dak forgiving the sins of bad cap management.
Well, that and the evening with the hookers, hamsters, and car battery but I will save those comments for the peer-reviewed medical journals.
If you’re spending that much time with Nelson Agholor, at least convince him to try another sport.
In fairness, you probably wouldn’t be confident holding the ball at that point after TJ Clemmings looking like the most Incompetant pass blocking OL in the NFL getting you murdered all game. Holy crap that dude can’t block anyone and he has been starting for weeks now. Vaitai has been LIGHTYEARS better than that dude.
..
Sams love of Checkdowns can be infuriating, but that OL is a friggin TRAINWRECK… SAM isn’t the most durable QB, I think they really need him to get the ball out fast enough to protect himself. losing a game because he threw another check down is bad.. But SAM getting hurt after what they gave up for him at this point in the season would be a disaster for Minnesota, then again another loss or two and their season is over anyway…
Remember all of us wanting Clemmings. Sad! I mean they have 0 running game, and no real receivers except for diggs who is always hurt.
Last year they had the same 5 o-line start all 16 games.
Yeah At this point in his career, he is what he is, but holy crap is that dude unlucky.. After years of injuries stuck in football hell (Rams), the Eagles get him away from the Rams and this kid finally stays healthy only his one year in philly happens to be right when chip finished purging the offense of Desean, Maclin and Shady while going into the season without any starting Caliber Guards to block for the QB… Then SAM gets traded to a contender like the Vikings, only it came at a time with NO A.P, a starting Tackle retired, and if that’s not bad enough as soon as Bradford get to the Vikings his OL start dropping like flies,,. Holy crap is that kid unlucky when it comes to everything about Football with the exception of money lol
..
He threw checkdowns all game not that his protection gave him much of a choice, but he uncorked a gorgeous pass that the TE dropped in the ENDZONE. That was a BIGTIME throw, a precise Laser in the ENDZONe between 3 Defenders were only the TE could get it, but the TE Wasnt able to come down with it blowing The Should be TD catch resulting in a FG, while all the other QB had to do to throw a TD pass was get to the 10 yard line, throw a screen to a wide open DEZ with the CB inexplicably playing 10 yards off him even tho they were in the redzone, and watch DEZ walk into the end zone with ease…
.
Before Sams career ends, just once im curious to see how good he can be with top 15 OL and a decent arsenal of weapons. Just out of curiosity, I’d like to see what a talented passer like him looks like in a good situation before his career ends
Clemmings foot was supposed to explode!
no i totally agree that the OL is a mess and that he had no time so def. agree with that. but On the other hand idk after seing sammy for 2 years in philly there are some obvious patterns. Emerging. The same feeling i had yesterday rooting for MIN i had in previous years Barely putting up 15 on dallas is … But again im not saying he’s bad or cant play, great arm and all, you see flashes but can you win with this guy ? maybe his first rams years with no weapons and bad OL ruined him.. idk
It wasn’t just in Philly–he did the same thing before. He has always been this way, at least in the NFL. Reason I didn’t like him being brought here.
What’s most annoying is people who continuously blame one player for the sins of everyone. Aaron Rogers looks like crap when his OL can’t block. Russell Wilson has to run for his life. Before he was injured Adrian Peterson averaged less than 3 yards per carry. Sammy has taken a pounding every game yet hangs in, demonstrating 10 times more courage than most folks here will ever possess. And the coaches call the plays!
https://www.yahoo.com/news/3-old-daughter-ex-nfl-160557116.html?.tsrc=fauxdal
Awful. Really terrible.
Is the officiating getting at an all time low, or does it just seem that way?
.
Feel like the Refs took the fun out of too many games this season and im not just talking about Eagles game,,, It’s bad when the refs were so horrible that it leaves you with a bad taste even in games where you have no rooting interest.. But the dallas win was good for our draft pick so while I shouldn’t complain too much…
..
But if im being honest, I don’t ever remeber the refs having this big of a negative impact on my fandom like this year.. I don’t know if it’s the refs, but this has been the least enjoyable football season I have experienced in a long time and it has nothing to do with Eagles struggles. Even when Eagles are bad, I always really enjoy the rest of the NFL season, but for whatever reason this season has been a dissapointment like I never experienced before..
..
Only playing 16 games, each game is too damn important to allow refs to have such a big impact on the outcome. Coaches no longer are given a few years of Patience to build. Outcomes of games are too important. We can’t allow officiating to screw with people’s livelyhood. You either provide results in the NFL, or you won’t have a job for long,. I don’t know what the answer is, full time Refs? I dunno… But next years officiating has to be signifcantly better than what it’s been this year. This can’t continue
..
When you start really being bothered by officiating in games where you don’t even care who wins, that’s when you know there is a problem
Get rid of the automatic TV timeouts after kickoffs, etc. Compensate by expanding the frequency/scope of reviews (networks can go to commercial then).
The timeout after kickoff is egregious.
It makes the product borderline unwatchable. Once an extra point clears the uprights, I know it’s going to be about 20 minutes until football happens again.
That’s why the NFL invented red zone.
During kick offs, I usually get a snack or go piss. My son had an interesting idea — if a ko goes through the uprights it’s good for 1 point.
When is the last time a game was unable to be televised because of equipment failure? No one remembers, right? Because it is too costly if it happens, networks spend enough to ensure that it does not happen.
If the league made that level of investment, they could have a rock solid system, a dedicated camera following each player and a dedicated official watching it in a booth.
The TV feed catches so may things that the officials on the field miss. So, the officiating should build on their model.
Do we REALLY want that? I’ll bet you any amount of money that some of the very best players of all time were also some of the very best cheaters. Best OL ever? Probably jump a lot, hold a lot. Best DL ever? Probably jump a lot, illegally use the hands a lot. Etc. Etc. Etc.
I say think the best recourse is to take it old school. Stop over complicating everything. Give the refs less BS to concern themselves over, and maybe add an official or two. Half the problem with everything today is that every solution to an issue creates 20 more problems. Maybe shit is just a little too complicated in general.
Not to harp on you, but that solution adds millions in costs a year to the NFL, making it unrealistic. The number of game day employees added starts at 44, but in reality it is closer to 100. Costs go on. On top of that, it just doesn’t sound like it would produce gameplay that I would enjoy.
While we’re at it, take away phones from players and don’t let webjournalists cover the league. Then we can have our heroes back.
I didn’t actually suggest changing anything technology-wise that they have now. My old school suggestion relates to the wording of the rule book. It has gone from simple and easy to read, to a bible of useless legalese.
Being a broadcast engineer, cockamamey plans like this actually end up making me more money. So in that respect, I am all for it.
Okay, I misunderstood. I am not sure about your proposal. They tweak these things for a variety of reasons. Player safety has played a role, emphasizing offense, protecting the golden boys. Maybe instant replay is a bust, but can you really go back to the way it was?
The language on a completed pass:
“ARTICLE 3. COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS
A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:
secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
maintains control of the ball after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, until he has the ball long enough to clearly become a runner. A player has the ball long enough to become a runner when, after his second foot is on the ground, he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact of an opponent, tucking the ball away, turning up field, or taking additional steps (see 3-2-7-Item 2).
Note: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession.
If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body to the ground, it is not a catch.
Item 1. Player Going to the Ground. A player is considered to be going to the ground if he does not remain upright long enough to demonstrate that he is clearly a runner. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.
Item 2. Sideline Catches. If a player goes to the ground out-of-bounds (with or without contact by an opponent) in the process of making a catch at the sideline, he must maintain complete and continuous control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, or the pass is incomplete.
Item 3. End Zone Catches. The requirements for a catch in the end zone are the same as the requirements for a catch in the field of play.
Note: In the field of play, if a catch of a forward pass has been completed, after which contact by a defender causes the ball to become loose before the runner is down by contact, it is a fumble, and the ball remains alive. In the end zone, the same action is a touchdown, since the receiver completed the catch beyond the goal line prior to the loss of possession, and the ball is dead when the catch is completed.
Item 4. Ball Touches Ground. If the ball touches the ground after the player secures control of it, it is a catch, provided that the player continues to maintain control.
Item 5. Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.
Item 6. Carried Out of Bounds. If a player, who is in possession of the ball, is held up and carried out of bounds by an opponent before both feet or any part of his body other than his hands touches the ground inbounds, it is a completed or intercepted pass. It is not necessary for the player to maintain control of the ball when he lands out of bounds.
ARTICLE 4. INCOMPLETE PASS
Any forward pass (legal or illegal) is incomplete and the ball is dead immediately if the pass strikes the ground or goes out of bounds. An incomplete pass is a loss of down, and the ball returns to the previous spot.
Note: If there is any question whether a forward pass is complete, intercepted, or incomplete, it is to be ruled incomplete.”
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That right there is the BS legalese I am referring to.
yea, i like the idea that we could put the officiating crew in a position to catch everything on the field to call a truly fair game.
but on the other hand…. the penalties…. good god, we’d never make it through a game when there’s a penalty on every play.
sure, the players would be forced to cope with this, clean up your game, or youre going to be out of a job, but i’m with you – there are better ways to solve this.
I think the cost would be insignificant to the league. They print money at will.
But to the larger point, no we probably don’t want that. My point is that they have the ability to catch every penalty in real time. The question really is whether we want that.
You say no, that great players gave always cheated.
If we accept that as desirable, how do we justify complaining when that player is an opponent? How do we blame refs for deciding the outcome of a game when we accept that we can’t have accuracy cutting into profit margins?
That is a suggestion that separates the fans from the owners. The billionaires are choking on their caviar, and the fans are yelling, “Fuckin’ A!”. The emphasis on the revenue contorts the sport and probably exacerbates fan rage.
What’s true in football is also true in life.
The refs in general are in a bad place. There have been rule changes and and an increase in outside scrutiny and emphasis on getting everything perfect. I think it has definitely HAS negatively impacted them.
Yeah I think it’s pretty similar to the ags situation
i’ve been very uninterested in football this year.
super excited to see what Wentz can do, but its painful to watch when no one can catch the damn ball. he seems to have all of the right tools, even if he has a tendency to overthrow into a few INTs. he’s been fun to watch, and thats all i really want. but goddamn, everyone else on the team is just bringing the fun back down. ok, not *everyone* but you know what i mean.
officiating is just awful. the refs have had a huge impact on a number of eagles games this year, can’t imagine what is happening to the other 14?-15? games each week… seeing Cam Newton get assaulted over and over again was pretty sickening. seeing the refs miss an obvious call on Bradford in the recent game, and remembering the head of officiating on the cowboys party bus thing….
the rule book is too long, complex, and subjective to be consistently applied by too few refs of questionable ability. simplify the rules, get rid of subjective interpretations of those rules, and get enough people that know what they are doing to observe and enforce rules with consistency. while you are at it, get rid of the penalties that have been sucking fun out of the game. let players celebrate doing something good.
the games are getting too long, and there are too many interruptions. i don’t need to see the game move like its chip kelly’s offense, but seeing 5 minutes of commercials any time there is a break in play, and then seeing 5 minutes of commercials for a tv timeout (is the only reason i can think play was stopped a few times) its just getting out of hand.
i hate seeing players injured, but its also ridiculous that everything comes to a grinding halt when there is an injury, only to see the guy back on the field one play later. like, you just laid on the field for 15 minutes while we watched the same commercial we have seen 32 times already in the past 3 hours, and you are just going to come back in the game like nothing happened???
the point about officiating comes back to this, too. we want the game to be called right, and called fairly, but penalties slow the game down, and reviews are even worse. now there are automatic reviews for just about everything. its good to get it right, but don’t take so damn long!
football on any day besides sunday is a goddamn travesty and i don’t know how the league lets this happen. MNF? ok, i can deal with that if i have to. Thursday? you can go right ahead and fuck off with that.
Night games are just killer for me. when the game ends at 11:30, its pretty much a guarantee that the following day is going to be miserable. When we end up losing, even more so. When the loss is because of officiating nonsense, its even worse.
i’m still super excited for the future of this team, and want to enjoy watching wentz grow into a (assuming to be) pretty good QB.
but lately, i find myself saying “i have other things to do today than devote 5 hours of my life getting upset over football. i’d rather mow the lawn instead.”
the league is absolutely not in an exciting place right now.
I gave up on live Eagles football. Fall Sunday afternoons spent playing with my kids have been much more profitable, I can skip games that are garbage and watch when I decide it’s time to watch. It’s been a positive life change.
i really like this idea. i’m going to have to get into this habit.
unfortunately, i’m in NY territory for TV, so i can’t get a lot of games local to DVR them (have to sling from parents in south jersey).
i think i’m going to have to move my slingbox at the parents to a box with a DVR or something..
That’s a good way to go. NFL rewind has it’s limitations (and isn’t cheap), but if you have someone else who wants it and can split the cost… well, it works for me.
downside to this approach is that you leech off of someone else’s tv, in fact – you are controlling the TV from somewhere else. if my parents are trying to watch TV, i would be interrupting their show, more or less making them sit there and watch the DVR feed of the game haha.
kinda leaves me to have to replay it when they are not using the TV at the time. which probably leads to me staying up all night…
its really a shame that the league (or the broadcast channels) don’t replay these games out of market or on a website or something.
The NFL could have a nice new revenue stream by hosting the games online for a reasonable price per game. If the networks are upset about it… they could always let the networks do that at a price per game and give the NFL some of the cash.
That would be great for the fans and very successful, but they make a whole lot more selling exclusive out of market rights for all the games to DirecTV. DirecTV pays something like 1.5 billion per year to the NFL for NFL Sunday ticket.
A manta among football coaches is, don’t leave the game up to the officials because they make mistakes, too — just like the teams.
Yeah, but I hate this saying. Both teams are trying to win as hard as they can. Both teams want to be up by two scores and trying to take it out of the ref’s hands. Both teams have great players and great coaches.
Im with you. Its such a tired saying. Most of these games can come down to just a handfull of plays. If it so happens to be one of the plays affected by the officiating then yes, refs can win or lose a game.
This idea is going to sound crazy at first, but I think a balanced way to take away some of the worst officiating calls would be to remove two of the most egregious “judgement call” penalties from the game.
To benefit the offense: no more holding penalties.
To benefit the defense: no more pass interference.
In my opinion, those calls represent some of the most awful gut checks to fans watching the game.
By removing the two types of penalties at the same time, you increase protection for quarterbacks but make it harder for receivers to get open… which in theory increases the value of the run game as well, which also protects quarterbacks.
that seems rough, it would just become a grab/hold fest. But OPI needs to better equate to DPI. There is a huge incentive for WR to commit OPI.
Really the refs should just be full time. Grand father for x years in it so that refs with other jobs can keep them, but then after that time, no. So you lose a few who would rather be lawyers or whatever. I can’t imagine that there is no benefit to being full time.
A lot of plays are already hold/grab fests anyway.
Interesting idea. There is a hold on virtually every single play, so it’s pretty much called at refs discretion now. I think PI needs to be a penalty because otherwise the wrs would get mugged on every play. Eliminating it would destroy completely the passing game in the League.
Maybe there could be some greater allowance? Something like the 3 second rule in basketball? A player can hold for three-Mississippi but no more? Perhaps the refs only call the most outrageous penalties and let a lot more slide? I don’t really know, but you raise a good point.
They would still be able to call defensive holding penalties, which are less of a game changer than PI. Therefore, I don’t think it would destroy passing… because quarterbacks will have more time to find an open receiver. What it would do for certain, is change the way that WR position is played and the type of player you would want.
Part of the reason for these ideas is exactly what you said about holding (everyone does it). And there are teams that use the lack of PI calls to their advantage by overplaying on defense based on the knowledge that officials won’t call everything, and that certain players who are “good” can get away with more.
I’m just thinking it would level the playing field by getting rid of some of the more subjective calls.
I’m digging the whole idea of reinventing penalty calls. I still don’t have a sense of what I would like done, but I definitely agree with you about taking some of the subjectivity out of the calls. I can’t remember a season like this one, where after every significant play there’s a pause where I wait to find out if a flag has been thrown. Seems like even the tv announcers are more on edge, making more overt statements about no flags on a play.
Thers a huge and growing database of ref mistakes
I would advise not jumping into the tank with the coaches and mantas.
Looks like one of the smart moves of Jerry Jones career has been his patience allowing Jason Garrett to grow into the head coach he is today, especially because it wasn’t always roses and Unicorns, there were a lot of rough times and failures under Jason Garrett especially early in his career, but shockingly impatient Jerry stuck with Jason Garrett understanding that an inexperienced head coach would need to grow into the job which can take years and for the last few years, it looks like they are starting to benefit from the years of stability and scheme continuity, the last few years they have been a formidable team accept for stretches without their starting QB..
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What makes hiring a coach such an important decision, is that typically that coach will need a few years of stability to really build a team while allowing the players ton master their schemes which only happens with time and repetition … Coaching changes bring scheme changes, and you can’t really expect to see the best your roster is capable of 10 games into coaching/scheme changes, unless you do what the Giamts and Bucs did promoting tbeir offensive coordinator to HC which allowed the players scheme continuity even tho they changed coaches… Dak clearly has more talent around him on offense than Wentz, but just as important, most of the players around Dak have years and years of experience playing in Jason Garretts offense, while Wentz’s veterans are like 10 games into playing in the offense Pederson brought to philly
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I think of a kid like Jordan Hicks who i think the world of and has played some good ball this year even tho he is only in his second season, 11 games into a scheme that couldn’t be any more different than the defense he played in last year….as much as I like Hicks now, I can’t wait to see what this kid will be come like his 4th NFL season after he has been in this defense a few years..
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Unless Doug Pederson is egregiously Incompetant to the point where they recognize his hire as a blatant mistake that they have no choice but to immediately correct (which I highly doubt), fans need to chill out with the fire Doug crap because we won’t even stand of becoming a legit contender without coaching stability and the scheme continuity that comes with it, and this is compounded exponential when you are at the beginning of a young QBs development.. Assuming Doug improves and grows into a great head coach, the most realistic blueprint is building towards becoming a contender by year 3 so that we have a window of a few years to contend while our QB is on a rookie salary…. Unless Doug Pederson is so Incompetant that you can’t allow him to coach another year, allowing Wentz and these players to grow in these current schemes is our quickest path to seeing the type of eagle team we are desperate to see
Well, it couldn’t hurt…
https://twitter.com/ochocinco/status/804758527499714561
Bring TO in too.
TO had his own issues w. drops. Wonder who would be a better WR right now, TO or Nelson Ags?
TO and Chad would still be better than Ags right now. TO did have drop issues but his work ethic and in-game mentality were top notch.
TO was arguably the Eagles Best WR ever. Ags arguably worst. . TO got ripped off by that BullSchit Cowboys i always miss you so ill grab you from behind horse collar cheap shot.
TO is a borderline HoFer. Ags?! Not so much..
Ags is just borderline.
TO is definitely borderline, maybe over the line.
I would still take to all day
If I was the betting man I would take the Eagles at +1 all day.
Yea I’m all over that action.
Are there any Temple University alums among us? I expect no immediate replies because you’re most likely zoned in on this potential rout of a good Navy team. Navy wears their physicality on their sleeve, and Temple is threatening to break their will. Temple should achieve their first ever conference championship, and become a ranked squad at the same time. If you’re getting bored watching mediocre Eagles, checkout Philadelphia’s Temple University Owls!
Well, as an Army fan, I can’t say I’m too upset that your Owls injured Navy’s QB and RB a week before the Army-Navy game.
Not just an Army fan.
If memory serves, you’re an Army vet . . .
And many thanks for that!
Much appreciated – and good memory!
Was doing some data digging and in 2012 Jason Avant had 53 catches on 71 targets and *0* drops.
Jason Jason where art thou Jason.
HANDS.
As bad as Agholar has been, we are lucky that its still so ridiculously early in his career that I refuse to call the kid a bust. I don’t know that he is a bust at all, All we do know is that clearly this kid Wasnt ready to be thrust into a starting role from day 1 after drafting him, and that doesn’t Neccessarily make him a bust at all. As bad as it looks for Nelson this year, he is a smart kid, with legit pro skills who is still way yoûng in his transition to the pros to have a chance at eventually realizing his pro potemtial. If this was the first half of his 4th season, waive the white flag on his career, but a case can be made that it’s chip and now Howies fault asking too much from a draft pick before he was ready for it….
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I have seen too many young players go thru hell early in their careers failing to live up to immediate and often unrealistic expectations from this cities media/Fanbase to call Agholar a bust because he has struggled to be a starting WRs only a season and a half removed from College… I have seen too many players like Brandon Graham, josh Huff, Marcus Smith who all went thru hell because they weren’t ready to immediately contribute early in their careers but went on to become quality players. Brandon Graham was the poster child for “Busts” in this city and now he is one of our best defenders,. Josh Huff felt every bit of our wrath as Agholar during the first two years of his career until finding growing to begin contributing for Us in year 3 before screwing it all up of course, Marcus smith was considered a bust the moment he was drafted lol Couldnt see the field for two years under the last regime, but he has started to contribute under this new regime during his 3rd NFL season
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Agholar has infuriated me all season, but how mad can I be when we clrealy asked too much of the Kid too soon in his career before he was ready to really handle it? Not Every Great First round pick was ready to do big things in his first two NFL seasons…. Im sure the Jags are glad they didn’t give up on Marquis Lee after his second season.
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Going thru hell in this city as a young player and perservering probably had a good impact making BG stronger. hopefully our wrath doesnt break Agholar. If he can eventually break through and become the player he was supposed to be, im sure he will be much stronger for it.
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Same goes for DGB, he even has more of an excuse having to deal with a scheme change on the fly so early in his NFL career… No idea why we didn’t build on all the success DGB had in that opening drive against the Packers. Very interested in seeing what DGB looks like in year 3 after an entire season and an offseason to get comfortable in a west coast offense which can be complicated and wordy, for a young WR
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Right now, our WRs are a real weakness, but I don’t think these kids are a lost cause, I just think they were thrust into a bigger role sooner than they were ready to handle it, and that doesn’t neccessarily make you a bust.
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Small silver linning to Nesons infuriating sophmore season
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Hopefully HOWIE can trade for Brandon Marshall to buy us some time to find out exactly what we have in our young WRs before having to invest more draft picks or overpay for some expensive free agent…. Hopefully the Jets are willing to give up Marshall since they have Enunwa and Decker coming back from injury…
“By putting so much on Wentz so early in his career, do the Eagles run the risk of damaging him?
“Yes. I always worry about that,” Jaworski responded. “And I’ve said over the last couple of weeks, they have to come out and be more balanced. If he’s going to continue to be put in those known passing situations — third-and-7 or plus — there’s a reason defensive coordinators call third-and-7-plus ‘disaster down.’ There’s a reason: It’s disaster for a quarterback.”
Lots of other interesting things in the article. Love Jenkins.
Read more at http://www.phillymag.com/birds247/2016/12/03/philadelphia-eagles-carson-wentz-zach-ertz-malcolm-jenkins/#CcOjflCUH0RMkZLq.99
i mean it’s a chicken and egg problem. When losing and your o-line sucks and your 2 starting backs are banged up you can’t run the ball 40 times a game.
Watching tv show BLUE BLOODS .. donnie wahlburg, Magnum PI, fuccckkkin whoopi Goldberg, one cliché after another..its literally making me vomit. Sickening collection of holier than thou smug schit
Id rather watch Agholor dropping passes