The McRibs Conundrum
Posted: November 16th, 2011 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 61 Comments »That’s what you get when Shady McCoy talks about Mike Vick’s ribs. Big Red says Vick was hurt on the second play of the game. McCoy says it happened later. Donovan McNabb doesn’t believe it happened at all. I think LBJ and Sam Giancana had someone do it before the game even started to teach Vick a lesson. Someone get Gil Grissom to cut Vick open, do his thing, and tell us exactly when it happened.
This is one “controversy” that just doesn’t interest me all that much. Maybe the ribs were partially broken early and it was a later hit that really did the trick. Maybe Vick was going on adrenaline early and overcame the pain. Maybe the Eagles made up the story to cover for his poor game. I don’t know and it really doesn’t seem like a point worth obsessing on.
Vick had a bad game, ribs or not.
Vick has broken ribs.
We’re still 3-6.
Should Vick have told the staff about the injury? Yes. We all know he’s tough, but they might have changed the playcalling if he gave them a heads up. I’m sure his fear was getting pulled.
Is a crappy Vick better than a healthy Vince Young? Good question. In the past, no. Right now? I have no idea. Vince has just a handful of snaps this year. He hasn’t had a chance to get going, but also hasn’t looked good. I don’t know what to expect from him.
Who do I want on Sunday night, Vick or Vince? I don’t have a strong preference. It would be interesting to see Vince run the offense, but that might turn ugly vs the Giants. Then again, we didn’t exactly light them up with Vick back in September.
Vick didn’t practice. Vince and Mike Kafka split reps. Can’t make too much of that. Primary cure for broken ribs is rest. We’ll see where Mike is on Saturday and Sunday. And who knows…maybe having him sit and watch would be a good thing. Something isn’t clicking for him this year. Maybe being an outsider for a whole game would be helpful.
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Chad Hall got moved to the active roster and Jarrad Page was cut. So long nice guy/bad tackler.
What about steve smith? Maclin has a sore shoulder and leg so he might be a longshot for Sunday. I’m sure that’s why smith is sticking around.
Hall lacks talent and speed, but will give maximum effort. Also, remember that he and Vince had good chemistry this summer. Maybe that will carry over to the regular season, should Vince be the starter. How funny would it be to see those two deliver big plays?
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Kevin Kolb said he was able to call out some of our plays to help his defense. Mixed feelings on stuff like this. First, the defensive players who do extensive tape study know what is coming a lot more often than we think. Stopping the play is the trick. Hell, how many times did we know Emmitt Smith was running left? He seemed to do okay.
Still, Arizona played us better than anyone else this season. I’m sure the loss of DeSean and injuries to Mac, Vick were the primary reasons, but Kolb might have been very helpful as well. I hadn’t really made too much of him knowing the playbook. Every little advantage you can get helps.
Should we ask steve smith for Giants plays? Look under the table. I’m sure that’s where he is.
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Lots of questions about Reid and his future. I’m working on some posts on the subject. I think it is far too complex a situation to say “keep him” or “he’s gotta go”. Can’t think with your gut on this. We’re talking about the future of the franchise.
After 1994, Rich Kotite had to go. It was clear to everyone.
After 1998, Ray Rhodes had to go. It was clear to everyone.
Reid bashers will say it is clear now, but that’s simply not the case. It may very well be time for him to go, but it is far from clear to anyone being truly objective. Neither Kotite nor Rhodes had winning seasons in his final 2 years. Neither coach had a good relationship with a good starting QB. Players were eagerly leaving the Eagles in both of those years. There are major differences in then and where we are now. Jeff Lurie has some really tough decisions to make in a couple of months.
And I stick by my notion that we need to see how things play out this year to get the best idea of what’s going on with Reid and the team. Kotite lost his final 7 games. Rhodes went 3-13 in his final year, with an offense that was historically bad.
please…save your strongest comments on the subject for my Reid posts…don’t waste your good material right now. I am working on the pro/con posts as we speak. Not sure when they’ll be finished, but soon.
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Draft talk. Feel free to ask questions and discuss scenarios. I will put up a full draft post sometime this week. I will answer questions as best I can, but I’m going to save long answers for a full on thread, that way people can find the info easier if they go back to search later on.
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Someone brought up STs play in the last comments section. I don’t know what schematic changes Bobby April has made. I think Colt Anderson and Akeem Jordan are doing a terrific job of getting off blocks/avoiding blockers and then finishing plays when they get down to the returner.
The short kicks by Henry helped in CHI. Hester was a stationary target when we got to him. Not sure about Henery’s punting. Hang time could be a help. Maybe he’s doing a strong job with his directional kicking. April was a big fan of that, as I recall.
Toss up: If Maclin can’t play and DeSean is held to less than 5 catches as usual, who has more catches: Chad Hall or Riley Cooper and Steve Smith combined? I really hope they activate Hall and just cut Smith.
I honestly think Chad Hall. And I wouldn’t be surprised if Smith is cut once Maclin is healthy.
I think Reid and Castillo should get the entire 2012 season until we look at firing them. This team is going to through a scheme change on defense, and history has shown that that can take an entire season to work out the kinks and get the right personnel in. Granted switching to wide 9 is a far cry from going 4-3 to 3-4 but I think it would be bad for our defense as a whole to fire Castillo and have 4 different defensive coordinators in 5 seasons. Consistency counts for something right?
I think that is true for an unestablished team because not only are they going through coaching changes, they also don’t have the talent needed to be successful. For the Eagles though, as a regular playoff team, they are not afforded that luxury of a year (or two as you suggest) to tweak things to become successful. So far, Castillo has been a bad defensive coordinator, and frankly, we have taken a step back from last years defense (which resulted in firing a coach). As for AR, as the head coach of the football team, he had the choice of who to hire and what changes in schemes he wanted to make. The fact that it failed is on him. You can debate whether to fire him or not, but he doesn’t get a pass because this is year one of a scheme/coaching change.
I don’t know that that is true that the Eagles are not afforded the luxury of a year or two to tweak the system. If Laurie knew what could happen this year, or if he is just patient, and decides to let things play out, I am pretty sure all will be forgiven next year if we look like the team we were all hoping for this year.
I just don’t see how you can go from a team that made the playoffs last year (and was considered a very legitimate contender), go out and sign big time free agents, have huge expectations going into the season and end up 3-6 so far and think, “well, that’s ok. We made some scheme changes. Let’s give it another year.” We have regressed from last year. At the end of the season they might not ultimately hold AR and Castillo accountable by firing them both, but there is absolutely no way they sit back and say “egh, lets just give it another year.” They will absolutely make some adjustments, either schematically or by firing people.
Well, I think one thing that defines the Redskin follies is the knee jerk signing of new free agents every year. Some of the guys we brought int his year are undeniably talented, some of the guys we already had are too, and some of the Eagles coaches (along the lines) are tops in the NFL.
With those conditions, I think there’s a lot of sense to weathering this year’s storm and giving it another year to plug the remaining holes bring everyone onto the same page in the new systems. The only problem there is that your D coordinator may just not be good enough, in which case you can’t really keep him, but by cutting him you can’t avoid forcing the guys to learn a new system either.
I’ll put it to you this way: If Juan was Jim, and we ended this season 3-13, I’d say don’t change much this offseason. Just replace the obviously incompetent players and focus on letting the rest grow into the system.
First off, give JJ a bit of credit. If he was coaching, our defense would be completely different. I’m not saying he would all of a sudden make us a playoff contender, but he is by far a better coach than Castillo. Second off, IF, and I emphasize if, our defense was playing this poorly with JJ as coach, you can be sure that JJ would hear some criticism. There have been some clear moments were Juan has been outcoached. Just because we like JJ and he has a history of quality coaching doesn’t mean he would have been above criticism and questioning. I can’t stand that attitude. When a coach or a player is not doing his job well, he should be rightfully criticized, whether the guy is a hall of famer or just some guy picked up off the street. Sure, the hall of famers have built up some forgiveness, but if the season ended today with JJ the coach instead of Castillo and we have looked like we have this season, not making changes would absolutely be a mistake. Again, those changes don’t have to come in the form of firing someone, but there better be some unbiased self evaluation that leads to necessary adjustments rather than just saying “egh, too bad. There is always next year.”
The problem with this approach is that leaving Reid and Castillo in for the 2012 season has the potential to set back the team for many years. If we have a suspicion that Reid has made too many mistakes lately and that Castillo is flat-out incompetent, wouldn’t it be better to move on prior to the 2012 season and give the new head coach an extra year of building time, and the new high draft picks? If we let Reid & co waste those draft picks, it will make the eventual new regime that much less effective.
And Castillo is hardly the definition of “continuity”. They disrupted that continuity already after firing Sean McDermott; doing the same to Castillo will hardly be a monumentous mistake.
I haven’t posted here since the waning moments of the Arizona loss. It was an extremely difficult loss and its been too angering for me to return and read discussions on the subject. I feel a little better now. At least, well enough to read and respond to issues regarding the upcoming game and subsequent games thereafter.
I will never, ever, EVER root for an Eagles loss. Especially against a bitter, hated rival like the Giants. But I will sadly admit that there is a part of me–especially in light of Vick’s apparent injury–that is just saying, “all right, pack it in. Avoid catastrophic injuries if you can. Get your young guys a lot of reps. Don’t plan on winning any more games. Wind up with a top-10 pick in addition to a high 2nd from ARZ and a high 4th from TB. Readjust and reload.”
That part of me makes me SICK, to be honest. The notion of even thinking about “tanking” this season, in mid-November, makes me want to punch myself directly in the ear. Sigh. So, so frustrated right now.
The way I see it, if you are a fan of a football team, you can’t ever root for the team to lose. That being said, when you are eliminated from the playoffs, whether it is mathematically or in this case, realistically, I think the focus should switch from rooting for a win to rooting for progress and seeing young guys and the core of the team succeed and develop. To me, even when we are mathematically eliminated, I will be yelling at the TV when we do something wrong and will be celebrating each touchdown, but at the end of the day, a win or loss will not affect me as much as seeing how our core players perform throughout the game.
The way I deal with this is I root like heck for them to win prior to the game and during the game, but, if they lose, I don’t get as mad when I think about moving up the draft board, and that, for the most part, a win would be meaningless in terms of playoff chances.
Ditto.
I wasn’t mad after the Chicago loss, I was frustrated. I was pissed off like hell at the Cardinals loss. They played just about the worst football I’ve seen under the Reid era. I no longer suffer all week when the lose because of their record, but when they play to that level of awfulness, I can’t help but get pissed.
Well put.
When a guy is performing so poorly that fans are having legitimate debates as to whether he is some sort of Benedict Arnold impostor here to sabotage our team….its time to go.
At least Benedict was driven by the love for a major hottie.
Maybe he has the hots for Rooney Mara.
When a guy is performing so poorly that fans are having legitimate debates as to whether he is some sort of Benedict Arnold impostor here to sabotage our team….its time to go.
Do you think Hall will be active on Sunday? And if he is, who gets deactivated, Smith or Cooper? On one hand Smith has been a major disappointment and has had a lot of bad plays, on the other hand, he has actually caught a few passes this season. I can’t imagine the coaching staff is happy with either player right now, but is no production really better than bad production?
Mac will be inactive and Hall would get his spot.
“Should we ask steve smith for Giants plays?”
I read this as: “Should we ask steve smith if he still plays for the Giants?”
My dyslexia = their double agent!
Well done, sir.
Are we at the point of the season where starting Kafka makes more long-term sense if Vick can’t go? Does anyone believe that Vince Young will be on the team next year?
I couldn’t agree more. In fact, I think whoever starts under Center on Sunday night should be incredibly indicative of how concerned Reid is about his job. Perhaps, on paper, Young gives us a better chance to win. But the smarter long-term decision is to get a better look at what Kafka offers for the long run.
So, does Reid have the confidence in his job safety to make the smart ‘long term’ move? Or does he go with the (arguable) best chance to win in VY?
This was my thought too. Do I want a banged up Vick or Young? Well, no. I want the guy that will still be with the team and will benefit from the reps. Not to mention I trust Kafka more than I do Young.
My only concern with starting Kafka (and I am pro starting Kafka mind you) is that you may be feeding him to the wolves with the Giants D-line.
Perhaps this is an opportunity for the boys up front who do the dirty work to teach Vince a lesson about keeping his trap shut.
I think it would be a great way to see if Kafka has what it takes to be a true NFL QB. It would also answer the question of whether or not the Eagles need to target a QB in the draft. Although your plan has its merits as well . . .
Well let’s see, behind the beleaguered and injured QB, we have a choice:
* The young and inexperienced starter the Eagles drafted and think well of.
* The athletic and talented QB with a history of success, just not with the Eagles. He also has a checkered past which led to his arrival here, though he hasn’t impressed since.
We’re also arguing about:
* Why the defense keeps letting us down.
* Which receiver will let us down.
* Why they won’t put the ball in the hands of their star RB but instead keep endlessly passing even when it makes no sense.
Maybe it really is time for a change.
I don’t think that makes sense until you have 7 or 8 losses, but it’s a legitimate question. I think Kafka’s the guy you want to bring along that way, but I’d like to see Young get a good start in before saying Kafka’s our QB of the future.
I think the thing with Kolb identifying our plays is being overblown. Sure, he may have identified some of them, but if I remember correctly each team involved in that trade sent a player. I’m sure DRC was able to identify a few things as well.
Disagree. It is simple. Reid must stay. Any players that don’t play hard for the next 7 games must go. Reid is like Donovan back in his prime – 90th percentile. Easily good enough to get the job done, and very little chance of getting an upgrade if we lose him.
Really succinct and I couldn’t agree more.
Just like you can stick a fork in #5 as he’s done, so stick that same fork in Andy.
We need young, eager blood, with new ideas and without the stubborness – someone who will actually put players in the right positions, not just say so.
Another Harbaugh.
Change for the sake of change is almost always a bad idea.
And every time Reid says “I need to put players in the right positions” what you should hear is “I’m not going to throw my players under the bus.” It’s a perfect non-answer.
FWIW people in Baltimore are not huge on Harbaugh
Come on, be serious. There is no way Reid is sharing a fork.
90th percentile would have won a championship after 13 years.
Unsurprisingly, that’s wrong.
As a side note, Cowher won in his 14th year.
Cowher ran the ball with his star back and didn’t promote an offensive coordinator to DC. Show me the trophy Andy.
Go ahead and list all the coaches that won a super bowl after their fifth year coaching a team. You’ll find it almost never happens.
Put yourself in Miami’s position. They will almost certainly fire Sparano. Who would you want to take over, Gruden, Fisher or Reid?
They’ll hire Reid, and he’s a good hire for a team looking to go from crap to respectable. Belichek will take him apart twice a year though, and he’ll flame out much quicker in that tough division.
Or… more likely… Reid is offered the job, and turns it down. He goes to Indy who has the number one draft pick, selects Andrew Luck and uses his formula to dominate their greatest opposition (wade phillips) and makes the playoffs every year for 15 straight years and wins 3 Super Bowls.
If Polian is out perhaps. I can’t see Andy taking a position where he doesn’t have control over personnel moves.
Just to get a way from the way this season is turning out (mostly because it enrages me even though I’ve mostly given up), I have a draft question…
I know a lot of people are hoping to draft a LB early. Some say WR to replace Jackson, while others say DT or CB. However, is it possible that we draft a QB early. Like first/second round early?
Here’s my reasoning…
1) Kafka, while most likely a competent back-up, doesn’t strike me as a possible starter. I know the coaches really like him, but do you really see him as a starter? I do not.
2a) Vick will have a realistic 4 years left after this year. (I believe it’s actually longer, but I think he or the team can opt out at least a year early). That means at the end of his contract, the draftee will be ready to go. Hopefully on an Aaron Rodgers type career path (which would be awesome).
2b) Vick is NEVER going to last an entire season. He plays with reckless abandon, which is great, but it also opens him up for a lot of hits. This goes back to point #1. Kafka is a competent back-up, but does anyone think he could carry this team to the playoffs should Vick miss the season?
3) This looks like it could be a great year to draft a QB. Obviously, Andrew Luck will not be an option (I hope we aren’t that terrible anyways), but it looks like Jones, Moore, Weeden, Barkley, etc. all possibly coming out, this could be a very strong draft for the position.
Thoughts? Am I nuts?
I don’t think you are nuts, but I do think with better playcalling Vick could get the job done, and I don’t know that there are many guys who could flourish with the playcalling we currently have.
I’m not looking to replace Vick NOW or any time soon. This is more about having a guy ready for the future. Think Noah building the Ark before it rained.
QB is always a possibility. Eagles considered taking a QB last year if one of the guys fell down the board. Didn’t happen.
I think the team would draft the right guy. They won’t go for just anyone. Has to be a player Reid really likes. Not sure who that is right now. Gotta really study these guys closely.
Which guy would they have considered?
Didn’t Andy Dalton and Colin Kaepernick fall down into the 2nd round last year?
I was thinking something similar today myself. I wouldn’t be surprised if the eagles did draft a qb in round 2 next year. If young is outta here, there’s an extra spot for a qb.
Tommy:
It’s clear — as you wrote — something’s not clicked for Vick this year. Missed OTA and mini-camps? Who knows.
QUESTION . . .
Assume Kolb had been unloaded last year, instead of McNabb.
1. Would D-Mac be as bad w/ the Eagles as he’s been w/ the Skins and Vikes?
2. Would the Eagles be better — at least this year — w/ D-Mac over Tin-Can Mike?
Even a degraded Donnie couldn’t possibly commit as many TOs as Vick this year.
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Sorry, but besides arguing that the Eagles should do whatever they can to draft RGIII, this is what the season’s come to for me.
And this is season 42 as chair-throwing Eagles fan. This season’s been like no other — except may ’94.
McNabb had to go. He and the team grew apart over his last few years. Donovan had the physical skills to still play at a high level, but not the mindset. Football is very much a mental/emotional game. If you aren’t 100 percent committed to the team, it will show. Donnie is playing for Donnie these days. Kills me to see him going through this stuff. He was a great Eagle.
I am very conflicted about Reid. He is like the Donovan McNabb of coaches. He has some qualities you love, and some serious flaws that are somehow completely oblivious to him, but smart opponents know and exploit. You really want to root for him because he is a “good guy”, but in your heart you keep waiting for the inevitable collapse and heartbreak. I have been a Reid supporter for years, but I don’t think anyone has the political capital inside the organization to stop the bonehead moves at either the tactical or strategic level. Just like Donnie, I think he could win it all if he was surrounded by good people and acted more as a role player than the main character. With three good coordinators running their groups, and a real GM defining the team’s long term vision, I could see him finally in a role that suits his strengths as a leader, spokesperson, and motivator.
I think that’s a valid comparison.
Remember those good old days when used to beat up on bad teams? When our offense sucked 98% of the time but would end up scoring on 3-4 big plays? Remember when our defense couldn’t get off the field unless they created a turnover? Remember when teams couldn’t run on us but they were able to abuse our CBs, get 100+ yards from their TEs and kill us with WR/RB screens? Remember when we used to win 10-11 games a season, be hyped up about our team and then get crushed by playoff caliber teams? Ahhh those were good days.
Tommy – what are the odds that Reid, Mornhinweg, and Doug Pederson can do for Young what they did for Vick? Give those guys credit, they can work some magic with quarterbacks (Vick’s current regression notwithstanding). Vince Young is physically more gifted than Kafka – maybe it’s Young who goes through the metamorphosis (I’m sorry), if Reidhinweg gets to mould him. Given a week, and the fact that the Giants have effectively zero tape on VY, that puts us at some advantage, especially when you think about the fact that it’s a division game and anything can happen.
Vick came in and “lit up” the Pack last year, and he wasn’t even getting the first team reps. Maybe that’s what happens this week. Not saying we’ll win – our defense still needs to figure out that Victor Cruz, as effeminate as his stupid salsa dancing TD dance may be, should be form tackled, as opposed to forearm tackled – but a shootout is not completely impossible….is it?
By the way – does anyone else hate Victor Cruz just for that dance? I can’t stand the guy. I’d take a 15 yard penalty for anyone who wants to “interrupt” that little fiesta party after he inevitably scores this weekend.
Tommy,
I was pondering the other day, where have all the quality undrafted free agent contributors on this team?
JJ is no longer even sniffing the field, Mikell is gone, etc. Is that something Andy has lost focus on? Or that Howie only cares about stockpiling late round picks as opposed to finding UDFA gems?
Reid definitely has had a bad season, and his top defensive draft picks have been bad for a while. The problem is that he has relaxed his old maxims and has not found a new set to operate from. I think Phil Sheridan has it right in todays paper. The Eagles are soft, somewhat lacking in character as well as toughness, the personnel does not ideally fit with the coaching philosophy. The Eagles have lost their way. The decision to keep Reid should be made based on whether he can find his way back, fast.
The Eagles let go of Dawkins, Runyan, Vincent etc because their talent was fading. Fine. But where are those players who have the leadership and the talent to galvanize the rest of the team in the fourth quarter and who by sheer dint of commitment will not yield. I look at Roseman and see a whiz kid with the magic touch to accumulate draft picks through labyrinthian trading strategies and he sure must be a political genius to get to where he did. But does he understand what it takes to grind another team into the dirt? Who on the Eagles understands that?
At this point of the season, witnessing what he have thus far, I would like Young to start against the Giants.
Vick is beat up right now and I do believe that with Young in the game, Andy and Marty would have to run due to necessity (hopefully). It would also give this team a chance to get their man- hood back. Forget the “must win” talk. Let them go out there and try and beat up on someone for a game win or lose to release some of the frustration and tension of this season.
The strength of this team right now is in the running game. It’s the only thing they do well. Pound the ball with Shady, Brown and Lewis and run bootleg and delayed draws and option runs with Vince. Limit his attempts (15-18) and go with the running game, clock eating and ball possession type offence.
Its no secret the games we won, Shady got his touches. Running the ball primarily (even into 8 man fronts) would give you better match-ups and opportunities on the outside. Take a couple of chances deep to Jackson, Maclin (if available), Celek thru the course of the game. I think if Vick’s in there, Andy will go back to the normal gameplan. At least this type of strategy gives them a chance to limit the bonehead play that has plagued them this season.
I don’t understand why Chas Henry was not discussed? We know he was recruited as a QB on the college level, and that Reid was just hidding him on the roster as our Punter. I mean, not a lot of QB’s can make the type of throw he hit Colt Anderson on.