The First Rule of Bounty Club is…

Posted: March 2nd, 2012 | Author: | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 56 Comments »

The story of the day is Gregg Williams and the Saints being found guilty of putting bounties on opposing players.  Uh, wow.

This kind of thing had a bizarre charm back when Buddy did it in the late 1980s.  Doing it in the NFL right now when player safety is such a focal point…insane.  The first reaction by many was that a lot of teams do something like this.  I don’t doubt that to a certain extent, but openly paying players for putting people out of games on a weekly basis seems a bit extreme.

Where did the money come from you might ask?  Oddly, it was delivered to Williams by G. Gordon Liddy and Howard Hunt in black bags.  Williams would then disperse it as he saw fit.  Nixon can’t be stopped even from the grave!

Okay, that last part was a little embellished (as in completely).  I’m not sure at this point we do know where the money came from.  I’m sure that will be interesting to find out.  Now that the story is out, people will dig relentlessly.

Word did get out tonight that Williams had the same kind of system when he ran the Skins defense from 2004-2007.  Does anyone recall any significant injuries vs the Skins back then?  TO got hurt vs Dallas in 2004.  Westy got hurt vs the Skins in 2003.  I’m drawing a blank on the Skins games during the Williams tenure.

The biggest angle to this in my mind is the playoff game where the Saints beat the ever living crap out of Brett Favre.  MLB Jonathan Vilma had offered $10K to any Saint who took him out.  Heck, I’d have done it before the game if I knew that offer was on the table.  Favre was really never the same after that game.  Nor the Vikings now that I think about it.

The talk on Twitter is that the NFL will come down very hard on the Saints and Williams.  The Saints don’t have a 1st round pick this year (traded to the Pats last year).  The thinking is that the NFL will take away New Orleans 2nd rounder this year and 1st rounder next year.  Vilma may get suspended.  Williams will most certainly get suspended.  There were some people calling for him to be banned from the NFL.  I’m not sure about that,  but how long is a fair suspension?  It has to be more than 4 games.  8?  16?  You wonder what Jeff Fisher and the Rams will do.

There could be additional penalties to the Saints beyond the draft picks.  If Steve Spagnuolo has one ounce of self respect, he’ll resign immediately and come beg Juan Castillo for a spot on his staff.  Okay, joking aside…you have to wonder if Spags will have any buyer’s remorse now.  Drew Brees is getting insulted by the GM in contract talks.  There may be player suspensions.  The team will lose draft picks.  The team may lose a key free agent or two.  Will game officials be affected by this?  You’d think the story will have to plant a seed in the back of their heads.

It will be interesting to see how this whole story shakes out.  Not a lot of Eagles angles to this, but I blame Bill Belichick and think we ought to be made Super Bowl champs for 2004 anyway.

* * * * *

The Skins are going to use the Franchise Tag on TE Fred Davis.  That means LaRon Landry will hit the street.  Someone on Twitter asked about the Eagles making an incentive laden offer to Landry.  Interesting idea.

I think LaRon is a bit nuts after reading some recent articles on him and seeing his muscles.  There’s big and then there’s “what the hell is wrong with you” big.  Landry looks like a guy who figured out how to lift weights while he slept.

I have no interest in going after him with a long term deal.  Landry hasn’t stayed healthy the last two years and he’s a bit of a maverick.  That’s not the guy I want to pay big money to.  Now, if the rest of the league feels the same way and Landry was willing to come here cheap for a year, I’d be interested in that.  Landry is incredibly talented.  He hits like a ton of bricks.  Oddly, his biggest weakness may be sloppy tackling.  He wouldn’t solve that issue.  He would just make some big time hits to counter the misses.

I think some team will roll the dice on him with a big deal.  Teams are desperate for good Safeties.  I would suggest that he could reunite with Gregg Williams in St. Louis, but…

* * * * *

Jimmy Bama points out that the Cowboys could use pick 14 on a DE and Fletcher Cox could be a target of theirs.  Jerks.  Leave that poor young man alone.  He wants to come to Philly.

56 Comments on “The First Rule of Bounty Club is…”

  1. 1 Raul Estrada said at 11:01 PM on March 2nd, 2012:

    Well, during the time that Williams was there, they had a guy by the name of Sean Taylor, who was feared as a major headhunter. Karma’s a mutha considering that the Redskins lost Taylor by being killed off the field. Their defense wasn’t as tough after that.

  2. 2 ChaosOnion said at 11:10 PM on March 2nd, 2012:

    You want and Eagles angle? It is more of an Eagles history angle.

    Gregg Williams and Jim Schwartz (another coach behaving badly with players behaving badly) were coaches under Jeff Fisher. Jeff Fisher got his start under Buddy Ryan. Fisher coached in Philly from 1988-90. The Bounty Bowl game was in 1989.

  3. 3 TommyLawlor said at 11:25 PM on March 2nd, 2012:

    Gregg coached under Buddy in Houston in 1993. Learned directly from the master.

  4. 4 Mac said at 10:42 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    This quote probably explains it best…

    Mace Windu: There’s no doubt. It was a lord Sith.
    Yoda: Always two there are. A master and a apprentice. No more, no less.
    Mace Windu: But which was destroyed? The master or the apprentice?

  5. 5 Joe Murphy said at 11:12 PM on March 2nd, 2012:

    I’m a believer in banning Williams. It’s obvious that the message about concussions and long term debilitating effects are not getting through to many in the league. If the NFL and its players don’t start taking this deadly serious the league might not be around in any form we’d recognize down the line. The ban might not have to be lifetime, but it’s got to be indefinite so that any coach or leader in the NFL would seriously consider if it’s worth risking their career.

  6. 6 TommyLawlor said at 11:26 PM on March 2nd, 2012:

    Good perspective.

  7. 7 ChaosOnion said at 12:01 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    This is so far beyond just Greg Williams. This is a failure by the entire New Orleans Saints organization. If the NFL wants to seriously send a message, if they want to get the attention of the league and the fans and be serious about player safety, they would begin by vacating the Super Bowl XLIII championship.

    The bounty, a system paying players to intentionally assault other players, was run by the coaching staff. Williams organized it. Payton new about it and did nothing to stop it so he condoned it. This is not the sort of thing that can go on in a locker room without everyone knowing. All the players knew. Shame on Brees for allowing his team to go head hunting other QBs like Warner and Favre. He must have really wanted that ring. If the coaches knew and the players knew, then the FO and ownership knew as well. This was known and condoned by every level of the New Orleans Saints organization.

    This was not a group of rogue players or a rogue coach. This was the entire organization, from the top down. Banning Williams is making him the scapegoat. The best way to punish the entire organization is to vacate their Super Bowl. The best way to communicate to the 31 other teams that this type of behavior will not be tolerated is to vacate their Super Bowl.

    A vacated Super Bowl XLIII would stand as a true testament to the NFLs commitment to player safety. It will never happen because it is all predicated upon the NFL being “serious about player safety.”

  8. 8 hallcr3 said at 3:54 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    Was it really the entire organization? I can’t help but to think if it was, we would’ve found out a lot sooner. That’s a lot of people not saying anything.

  9. 9 ChaosOnion said at 7:48 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    * We know all the coaches new from the investigation.
    * We know at least defensive players knew from the investigation.
    * In a locker room, if all the coaches know and the defensive players know, then the offensive players know.
    * If all the coaches and all the players knew, the staff knew and the front office knew. They may not have known directly, but they “knew” and chose to turn a blind eye.

    This whole thing stinks because I look at it as blatant cheating to win a championship.

  10. 10 James Coe said at 4:57 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    I don’t really see vacating the SB as being in anybody’s best interests (especially the league – what, do we just pretend that year never happened?). You really want to hurt the organisation? Don’t let them tag Brees and take away all of their draft picks in 2012 – that’d hurt.

  11. 11 ChaosOnion said at 8:09 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    Do both.

    Taking away their QB and their draft picks hurts their future team. It does not hurt the players, coaches, staff and executives that benefited from this behavior by winning an NFL Championship.

    Declaring NO forfeit and awarding Super Bowl XLIII to IND would be pretending the season did not happen. Maintaining 2009 as the year without an NFL Championship would make future fans and players ask “Why?”

    Q: Why is there no NFL Champion in 2009?
    A: The 2009 New Orleans Saints organization was found to violate the CBA by providing improper benefits in the form of injury bounties against opposing players. Not only was this negligent in the pursuit of player safety, the team benefited directly from this form of behavior in the 2009 playoffs. In this face of these actions, the NFL was forced to strip the New Orleans Saints of their NFC Divisional Round, NFC Championship and Super Bowl XLIII victories.

  12. 12 the guy said at 11:22 PM on March 2nd, 2012:

    Nope, don’t really care about this scandal.

    I would, however, like to discuss how the Patriots have fared ever since they had to stop cheating. I don’t care if it really had anything to do with 2004. I don’t care if the Eagles get a Super Bowl win with an asterisk. I just want fans of the other teams to shut up.

  13. 13 Jim Reynolds said at 11:31 PM on March 2nd, 2012:

    Here’s what I consider the upper end of likely penalties:

    Saints – loss of 2012 2nd round and 2013 1st and 2nd round picks
    Gregg Williams – lifetime ban
    Sean Payton – 1 year suspension
    Mickey Loomis – $1M+ fine (no idea what he makes per year)
    Vilma – multi-game suspension (don’t think they’ll come down on him as hard, nor should they)

    Personally, I think all of these would be justified. This wasn’t a one time thing. It went on for 3 years. I’ll be surprised if the league is more heavy handed than this. I’ll be equally surprised if it’s as lenient as letting Williams and Payton off with couple/four game suspensions.

    This is the perfect opportunity for Goodell to demonstrate the NFL is serious about player safety, and equally concerned when coaches are involved as when it’s James Harrison taking someone’s head off.

  14. 14 TommyLawlor said at 11:38 PM on March 2nd, 2012:

    Could the NFL get away with a lifetime ban for Williams…legally? Could suspend him for 2 yrs and at his age that might as well be a lifetime ban.

    No way Payton gets banned for a year. Just can’t see the league doing that to him. I’m not defending Sean. Just don’t see that as a likely outcome.

  15. 15 Jason_E said at 12:02 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    I think it’s more likely that Greg Williams gets suspended for one year and MAYBE Payton gets suspended for 2-4 games. There could also be legal suits that end up stemming from this. Who’s to say in ten years players like Farve and Warner won’t try to sue for some post-concussive symptoms they may suffer? (I hope they don’t have any ill effects later in life)

    Not to mention the Feds. I could see this somehow constituting illegal gambling. The IRS as well. From the sounds of it, money was put in by players, coaches, and maybe more. I doubt anyone claimed all this money.

  16. 16 Kristopher Cebula said at 1:19 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    statute of limitations would probably be up after 10 years. it might even be up now for a charge like assault

  17. 17 Jamie said at 12:10 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    “Could the NFL get away with a lifetime ban for Williams…legally?”

    I don’t see why not. The NFL is an organization that has rules. He broke the rules. Plus he’s now a known threat to personnel safety, making him a safety liability. Of course, I’m not a lawyer either and anything I say shows I know nothing about the law.

  18. 18 Kristopher Cebula said at 1:13 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    i’d say they’d probably levy a heavy fine and a big suspension. maybe 8 games to a year. if he gets caught again, he’d probably face a lifetime ban.

  19. 19 James Coe said at 5:00 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    But if the news about the Redskins is true, this is already his second offense. I think they need to give Williams a lifetime ban, pwn the Saints by taking a large number of draft picks from them and then take away the Redskins 1st rounder because they’re kinda implicated too (and it would make life better for us :p)

  20. 20 sonofdman said at 7:41 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    Re taking away the Redskins first rounder – awesome idea! I wish you worked for the league!

  21. 21 Mac said at 10:51 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    The best argument I’ve seen is the Pete Rose lifetime ban.

  22. 22 Jim Reynolds said at 10:57 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    Ask Dexter Manley about lifetime bans. If they can do it to a player, they can do it to a coach.

    If Payton gets off with a 1-2 game suspension, that will be seen as sweeping it under the rug. There’s apparently email and possibly other documentation showing Payton knew about the practice and did nothing. If the league disciplines players involved but only slaps Payton on the wrist, the NFLPA won’t be happy.

  23. 23 Ace said at 11:03 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    It’s a labor law issue. Williams is guilty of violating NFL rules AND, from what I understand, the CBA which, in turn, makes the league in violation of their contract with the players.

    It’s would have to litigated for a definitive answer, but there’s no statute saying a company can’t bar a person from future employment.

  24. 24 Jamie said at 12:05 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    I don’t see why Sean Payton should be excused in this deal. He knew it was going on and let it continue. He’s just as guilty as Williams is in my opinion.
    I wonder if some DA could see this as a chance to make a name for himself/herself by bringing criminal charges against these guys, like being an accessory to assault causing bodily injury.
    Not only does it make Eagles fans think back to Buddy’s days here and Bounty Bowl I and II, but it makes me think back to the NFCCG against Carolina back in the 2003 season, and that cheap shot that injured McNabb. Kurt Warner said he thinks it goes on all over the league.

  25. 25 sonofdman said at 7:42 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    I still can’t believe that there was no penalty on that cheap shot to McNabb.

  26. 26 Mac said at 10:52 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    Word… and part of the reason I am 100% in favor of an idea that will NEVER be implemented by the NFL.

    It’s quite simple… you injure a player, and you’re out until that player comes back to play again. If his career is over, so is yours. If he misses one game due to concussion so do you. If he can’t practice this week… neither can you.

    It’s too simple, and too perfectly fair.

  27. 27 BC1968 said at 11:38 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    Maybe, only if it’s a hit that is followed by a penalty and a fine.

  28. 28 Mac said at 1:10 PM on March 3rd, 2012:

    That would improve things… but what I’m talking about is making it so simple that players get benched for an injury with or without intent. I’m advocating a leveling of the playing field in a way that would change the game. Championships would no longer be won just by being lucky enough to stay healthy.

    And the protection would go both ways. Does MJD lower his head and hit a LB in the chin and he’s concussed… then MJD is out until that LB is cleared to play.

  29. 29 Steve H said at 12:59 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    You know its a shame the Saints had to be the one to go and do something like this, they worked so hard to get the always a loser stigma off and now this…

    I think you’ve got to come down at least a little bit hard but I would come down hardest on Williams.

  30. 30 Steve H said at 1:01 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    Oh and Laron Landry looks like a fool in those pictures. If his gametape was half as good as his workout routine he’d be one of the elite safeties in the NFL. Stop preening and start watching some tape!

  31. 31 Sjampen said at 1:52 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    I hear that the Eagles Barry Rubin does a wonderful job when it comes to adding muscle. Maybe thats our angle? Landry doesn’t want money, thats a fools wish, he just wants a gym membership and Barry Rubin as his personal trainer. Oh, and the opportunity to play SAM or MIKE once in a while so he gets to compare his muscles with the big boys.

    I think we should offer him a 4 year, 8 mill contract, with a key to Rubins house. That’ll get Landry to forget a plane ticket and just run here, Forrest Gump Style.

  32. 32 the guy said at 3:00 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    I seriously cannot believe the fans of a team that inspired the the term “Bounty Bowl” are actually having this discussion without irony.

    Does this lead anywhere that fans want to go?

  33. 33 sonofdman said at 7:45 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    I know. Personally, I am trying to reconcile the disgust I feel for Williams and the Saints organization with the fond memories and good feelings that I feel when remembering the Bounty Bowl.

  34. 34 TommyLawlor said at 8:48 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    Think they’ll ban Buddy Ryan from coaching in the league?

  35. 35 Thunder_lips said at 8:57 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    A lifetime ban for Buddy, his children, and his children’s children!

  36. 36 TommyLawlor said at 12:19 PM on March 3rd, 2012:

    Or we could just make Rob get a haircut and take a shower. That’d be punishment enough.

  37. 37 Linky, March 3, 2012: I’m paying $10 to anyone that breaks competing bloggers’ typing fingers – Blogging the bEast said at 6:15 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    […] The first rule of bounty club is… – Tommy Lawlor, IgglesBlitz This kind of thing had a bizarre charm back when Buddy did it in the late 1980s.  Doing it in the NFL right now when player safety is such a focal point…insane.  The first reaction by many was that a lot of teams do something like this.  I don’t doubt that to a certain extent, but openly paying players for putting people out of games on a weekly basis seems a bit extreme. […]

  38. 38 izzylangfan said at 6:44 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    ” I am honored that the Philadelphia Eagles organization perceives me as a franchise player.” Who does that sound like. DJax? Drew Rosenhouse? I never heard those guys talk this way. This is obviously stage managed. Before Vick signed his deal after being franchised the feel of the conversation was completely different. It seems like either the Eagles want DJax to play nice for a year under the franchise tender and show he can be both a good teammate and a good player before giving him the long term deal, or the Eagles convinced him that it is best to not mouth off and let the Eagles trade him so he can get the deal he wants. Signing a long term deal this year seems the most remote of the three possibilities to me.

    Good old Roger makes such a big deal over integrity. Not that he shouldn’t. But in my view he has been more of a self righteous schmuck. Now we get to see what he is really made of. Williams was putting out bounties on opposing players for YEARS. He should be banned from the NFL for life. And all those other players, coaches and owners. What about them. Just trying to injure another player intentionally on one play should merit a stiff penalty. But for doing it over multiple games, a season, multiple seasons – what penalty is correct there. Not just a few games. Not just 5 games – thats only one more than if you got caught smoking pot. And its not just players but coaches – head coaches who knew about it and let it continue and owners who let it continue and lied to NFL investigators. These are people who cheated and perhaps caused serious injuries and maybe ended careers. If the Saints lose a second this year and a first next year and three guys get suspended three games this year – that is sweeping it under the rug.

  39. 39 BreakinAnklez said at 7:47 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    Give them the “death penalty”. Vacate all their 2012 draft picks and no playoff participation for 2 years.

  40. 40 Mac said at 10:53 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    College football has done things like that, so there certainly is precedence.

  41. 41 BC1968 said at 11:39 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    Just make them have Mike Ditka run their draft this year.

  42. 42 JRO91 said at 8:28 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    I look at it as one less team the eagles will have to deal with on their way to the SB. Just need Eli to fall down a flight of stairs and Rodgers to slip a disc while “discount double checking” and the Eagles path just got a lot easier!!!

  43. 43 Eric Weaver said at 10:21 AM on March 3rd, 2012:


    This is off-topic but I know you were high on Sean Spence pre-Combine. Is he still a consideration for OLB in the 3/4 round range? Mayock described him as one of the more instinctual linebackers in this draft.

  44. 44 Eric Weaver said at 10:23 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    I haven’t read any specific reports, but according to ESPN, the bounties were a pool the players put together.

    I would think Williams would be suspended, possible loss of draft picks and team fine and specific players may get suspensions. Beyond that, I don’t think you can do much more.

    Loomis should be fired though. There appears to be some negligence there as he did not do what he was told to do by the owner.

  45. 45 Mac said at 10:59 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    I have an idea that will NEVER be implemented by the NFL.

    It’s quite simple… you injure a player, and you’re out until that player comes back to play again. If his career is over, so is yours. If he misses one game due to concussion so do you. If he can’t practice this week… neither can you.

    It’s too simple, and too perfectly fair.

    Let the players choose/create their own fate.

    If a team starts hiring “head hunters” like they do in the NHL then penalize them with a smaller roster. If it can be proven that they hired and activated a player specifically to harm other players on the field, then the team is cut down to a 50 man roster for the remainder of the current year and next year. -5 players to the roster for each following offense. The franchise owner would be punished with say… a 10 million dollar fine. ~This “complication” to the rule is just to make penalties severe enough to stop potential abuse of the system.

  46. 46 James Coe said at 11:53 AM on March 3rd, 2012:

    That doesn’t necessarily work though…You can never prove if somebody set out to cause an injury and perfectly legal tackles can cause injuries due to no fault of anybody.

  47. 47 Mac said at 1:07 PM on March 3rd, 2012:

    It works super easy. You perform the tackle, they get hurt, you can’t play or practice. It’s super simple and has nothing to do with intent.

  48. 48 D3FB said at 3:45 PM on March 3rd, 2012:

    So Nick Barnett should never be able to play because he was doing his job and made a tackle on Leonard Weaver last year?

  49. 49 Mac said at 4:28 PM on March 3rd, 2012:

    That’s how I see it… that’s called Justice, which most people don’t actually want.

    Career over = Career over

    I suppose to be fair, you could put it in the hands of the injured player to overturn the Justice with Forgiveness.

    Justice is a cold thing… but in the end doesn’t Nick Barnett “hypothetically” make out better than Weaver anyway? After all, he maintains all of his physical gifts and possibly goes on to have a career in Canada or an Indoor league.

  50. 50 D3FB said at 5:07 PM on March 3rd, 2012:

    Thats not justice!


  51. 51 Mac said at 5:16 PM on March 3rd, 2012:

    That Justice will have more impact in the NFL than my idea… that’s for sure.

  52. 52 James Coe said at 3:52 AM on March 4th, 2012:

    You may as well just ban guys from tackling. Nobody’s going to risk hitting anyone if there’s the chance he lands awkwardly and gets injured (i.e. ever)

    There’s a reason it’ll never be implemented by the NFL and it’s nothing to do with them being stupid.

  53. 53 Mac said at 10:58 AM on March 6th, 2012:

    A good form tackle shouldn’t be injurious to anyone, with the possible exception of guys who have been previously injured. I would like to see more proper tackles in the NFL instead of highlight reel hits. Jared Page should stand as a paragon for the Eagles Defensive coaches driving this bandwagon.


    I guess I’m just giving an extremist example. I can see your point that the tackle in question would have to be reviewed by a board because there would be cases of accidental injury.

  54. 54 ACViking said at 12:59 PM on March 3rd, 2012:

    RE: What should Goodell & the NFL do?

    The Saints’ bounty scheme lasted 3 years. The Redskins (Williams’ prior team) had the same bounty scheme for his time there, which was about 3 years.

    That’s 6 straight years worth of, at a minimum, all the defensive players on two teams participating — willingly or not — in a bounty system.

    During those 6 years, the amount of turnover in personnel for both teams was probably pretty significant. That means players in the bounty system moved on to other teams.

    Does anyone think the players who left the ‘Skins and Saints for other teams never spoke about a very formalized, coach-driven bounty system?

    SO . . . WHAT DOES GOODELL DO, besides punishing somehow the Saints organization, Williams and Peyton?

    If the NFL and Goodell are serious about injuries and *legal* compliance with the CBA . . . EVERY TEAM is investigated for bounty activities.

    [The Eagles of 2011 will have no problem passing . . . just run some highlights of their tackling this year.]


    OVERKILL? I don’t think so.

    This is about legal liability — both civil and criminal.

    The NFL is notice that unlawful conduct (CBA violations / possible IRS violations) is ongoing.

    The foundation for the unlawful conduct is — arguably — behavior on the field that falls *OUTSIDE* the accepted standards of the sport, as defined by the rule book.

    Players who spear, hit above the shoulders, go head hunting . . . they’re potentially inviting not just civil liability but criminal prosecution.

    And the NFL, on notice and taking no further action, may be deemed to ratify that conduct — making the NFL liable for any unlawful/illegal action.

    Sure, it’s just an argument.

    But when the next player is paralyzed or worse because of an illegal hit, the NFL could be on the hook.

    And the question will be, “what did you do when you found out about the coach-sponsored bounty on two teams, with other players saying it happens all over the league.”

  55. 55 Mac said at 3:14 PM on March 3rd, 2012:

    The buck has to stop somewhere. If the NFL does nothing/not enough then I’m sure the law makers will be more than happy to get some publicity out of this. Look at the ridiculous circus they’ve had with baseball and ‘roids.

  56. 56 Mac said at 3:15 PM on March 3rd, 2012:

    Maybe DeSean and Drew will lead the way filing a civil suit against Dunta Robinson.