Back To Work
Posted: December 26th, 2012 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 116 Comments »Christmas break is over. Time to put away the Spiderman bike with training wheels and get back into the flow of discussing our beloved Eagles. Our 4-11 Eagles. Ugh, that just sounds so very depressing.
Nick Foles was moved to IR due to his broken hand. Antonio Dixon was signed to a 2-year deal to replace him. Interesting move. Dixon does somewhat know the defense so it could be a simple move because of that. You also wonder if this move is a signal about the future. Would the Eagles head back to a 2-gap system in the future? Could Dixon be looked at as a NT, whether 4-3 or 3-4?
Fletcher Cox and Mychal Kendricks both suffered concussions on Sunday. Derek Landri will start in place of Cox, if Fletch can’t go. Akeem Jordan would replace Kendricks if he can’t go.
The big story, of course, is the return of Michael Vick to the starting lineup. What will this be like? The coaches normally run a more conservative offense against the Giants. I hope that trend continues. It would be good to see Vick play in a game where we have a pair of good RBs and we run somewhat of a balanced offense. The OL is playing better than they did when Vick got hurt.
It would be nice to get to see Vick play in this setting so that we could get some idea of whether we should have any interest in bringing him back in 2013 on a cheap deal. I don’t prefer that idea, but some fans do. My hang-up is that Vick has a decade’s worth of bad habits that just aren’t going away no matter how much the offense changes. If Vick could play a clean game and lead the offense to 27 to 30 points, maybe that would change my mind.
It will be interesting to see how the offense looks with Vick compared to what it looked like with Foles. Mike is getting the same OL and set of skill players. Foles has led the offense to 20 or more points in 4 of the last 5 games. They’ve topped 400 yards a couple of times. Maclin and Avant are playing their best football of the year. How much changes with Mike at the helm and are the changes good or bad?
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There are more Chip Kelly to the Eagles reports coming out. I’ll get into that stuff later. I still think this is all speculation right now.
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There is a stud LT in action in a bowl game tonight. Eric Fisher of Central Michigan plays in the Little Caesars Bowl. David Syvertsen offered some thoughts on him.
I like Fisher quite a bit. Big frame. Very good run blocker. Tenacious. The Eagles would not take him at #4, but if we blow it and pull out a win on Sunday, we could fall as low as #8. At that point, maybe Fisher is a possibility.
Speaking of Sunday…will it be an upset if the Eagles win? The Giants look terrible these days. Being a Giants fan must be crazy. They literally don’t know which team will show up on every Sunday.
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Jimmy Bama put up a post on Barry Cofield’s big tackle of Maclin on the WR screen from Sunday.
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How friggin weird is it to think Andy Reid will only be here for 5 or 6 more days? It is almost hard for my brain to grasp that idea.
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1.The Dixon signing is a big head scratcher. How can it NOT be indicative of future plans (which I’m sure the Eagles would deny that they have a coach and scheme planned out while Big Red is still in the building)?
2. Foles was playing with a messed up hand, I wonder how much it was affecting his play.
3. Vick feels like he can go out and break records. God I hope it’s not a turnover record. Then again, a great game simultaneously creates QB controversy and gives Vick leverage against a pay cut (I’d rather have Vick be cheapish veteran competition while being a viable option for a coach that prefers mobile QB’s).
I’m of the opinion that the Eagles have their coach and scheme already. MAY THE SPECULATION BEGIN!
Dixon’s been on the street for a few weeks. With all the Eagles’ injuries, the team could have brought him back (it seems like) several times over.
As for QB Vick, if he could have stayed healthy, done a better job at reading the blitz, and not turned the ball over the past two years — when the O-line was healthy and when it wasn’t — I’d be interested in seeing what the next coach thinks about MV at QB.
But Andy Reid bet his job on Mike Vick as the Eagles starting QB — being healthy, playing well, and winning. Andy’s gone.
Jim Mora bet on Vick. Mora was canned.
Dan Reeves bet on Vick. Reeves was fired.
T-Law’s takeaway is the right one.
So the question, I guess, is why would (and should) a new coach bet his and the Eagles’ future on Mike Vick?
Well put. Although in fairness…Mora and Reeves had the right idea how to use Vick on the field. They didn’t handle him correctly off the field. With Reid, it was the exact opposite.
If a new coach could combine the concepts…maybe…MAYBE…Vick would be in his best ever position to succeed.
That’s the case for him. I’m still hesitant to fully buy in, but I do think we have to acknowledge the great strides he’s made off the field and that he will try to do what the coaches want.
I agree with you and Tommy on Mike Vick. But I’m sticking with my guns here…if we get Chip Kelly, a coach that loves to run with creative scheme, a mobile QB greatly amplifies your running game (Kempski illustrates this pretty well in his break down of Alfred Morris’ uncontested TD run in which the threat of RGIII’s mobility neutralized Mychal Kendricks). If you have DJax keeping safeties deep, and a mobile QB as a running threat, cannot afford to sell out to stop the feature running game. Now the alternative is a less mobile QB that has some issues with the deep ball (hoping we can fix those up in the off-season). Lets face it, all eyes will be on Shady in a run-happy Foles-led offense.
What is Foles value if we were to trade him? Would you want to trade him? If we had a D that only gave up 17 to 20 ppg, and an O that turned the ball over half as much. I think we’d be pretty happy with Foles.
I like Nick. If he improves in a few areas he could be a franchise QB. But for now he doesn’t ideally compliment a run-centric offense in my mind. A balanced Offense however….he could be quite effective. Certainly good enough to win games if we can tighten that turnover differential up.
I do wonder what we could get for him given the tape he has put out. Given the state of QB’s in this league, yet the read-option trend…maybe a 3rd? People will want to see him conquer those deep throw issues before they part with more than that. I might have green shades on though.
We just spent a 3 on him. You don’t think he’s at least done enough to surpass that?
Personally I’d have no interest in trading him so soon. But hypothetically, I wouldn’t accept anything less than a 2 considering the whole return on investment thing.
Me neither, we MIGHT have a franchise QB in the kid, and until we know that he isn’t…no way would I trade him.
Re: Vick’s Last (?) Stand
I love the almost literary backdrop of Vick versus the Giants in what’s likely his last game here.
Vick’s best 15 minutes of regular-season football in green — and I think the greatest quarter by any Eagles QB because of the situation — came in the 4th Q of the Birds’ Third Miracle at the Meadowlands in 2010. What Vick did in those 15 minutes outdid even his MNF performance against the ‘Skins because of the context.
I love the match-up this weekend because Vick used every last bit of his 2010 magical pixy dust to win MM-III. That 4th quarter was the crescendo to a story that began about 18 months earlier.
But the next week was that disastrous Tuesday night game against the
Vikings. And Vick has never been the same QB since.
So this Sunday, in what what may his last game here, Vick squares off against the same team against which he left literally everything he had — including that magic dust of his — on the field 2 years ago to secure a once-in-a-lifetime victory.
He wrote the best 15 minutes of regular-season football by an Eagles QB ever. He won’t be forgotten here as long as there’s football.
So very true (and nicely stated). Vick’s final 8 minutes of magic in that game have haunted him and us since then.
I *knew* the Eagles were going to win it all after that game … and pretty much right up until the Riley Cooper underthrow. James Jones had a drop that should have put the Packers up 28-6, and the fact Vick was leading us back against Green Bay the way he did against the Giants, well, it was just all lining up …
*Sigh*
As much as I want that top OT, I’d really like to smash these guys with BG having a monster game and JPP getting handled.
That would be nice.
Is there a blue chip CB in the draft? We kind of need someone that can stand up to #1 receivers for the future. Or even someone to take the lesser of these outstanding WR tandems in their rookie year.
I kinda think the era of the great CB is over. Rules favor the offense way too much now. Teams may be better off getting pass-rushers and safeties. I’d really be weary of spending a high pick on a CB.
Still, there are times I’m not sure if our D has donned the Kelly Green and is just camoflaged on the field or did the receiver really get THAT open (yeah I understand those are broken coverages and not a sign of incompetent cover-skills). I’m just saying, we had a season where one of our corners was a journeyman…it wasn’t pretty. Our starting corners next season could potentially be Curtis Marsh and Brandon Hughes, Yikes!
I really think DRC will be back. We won’t overpay, but I think the organization will take a chance on him. I wouldn’t mind seeing Nnamdi back there (at a reduced salary) with our new DL scheme. He’s not elite, but I think he’s smart enough to keep things under control. Better safety play and pass-rush will help. Scoring would also be nice.
Ark 87 . . .
Conjuring memories of Eagle greats like DEs Mel Tom, Richard Harris, and Will Wynn. And DTs like Gary Pettigrew, Ernest Calloway, and Don Hultz.
Forgettable all . . . except Mel Tom — who in a 42-7 home-opening loss to the Cowboys in ’72 delivered a forearm to the head of Roger Staubach after he threw an INT. No penalty called.
I’m incredibly saddened that I can’t find a video of that on the internet (one that excludes the horrible beating of the rest of the game anyway)!
I was there. It was, at that point, a typical Eagles home game against the Cowboys — over in the 2nd Q.
However . . . Al Nelson returned a missed FG 102 yards for a TD in the 4th Q with the Eagles down by 42. A highlight moment of the pre-Vermeil era.
Tommy, what’s your opinion on Mike Glennon. QB NC State
Talented, but inconsistent. At his best, reminds you of Matt Ryan. At his worst, Matt LeBlanc. Okay, that was a bit of an exaggeration, but his bad days are rough. Won’t be a QB that every team loves. Those who are old school and want the big pocket passer will have definite interest.
Matt LeBlanc . . . top comment of the year for T-Law!
Re: Read Option is all the Rage
No QB in the NFL would be a better read-option QB than Mike Vick circa 2004 (minus the off-field stuff).
In 2012, the Redskins and Seahawks have used the read option to run to the playoffs with rookie QBs.
But how long will the read option be anything more than a gimmick-scheme that’s solved by DCs with a full off-season to break it down.
Mike Vick will be 33 next season. If — hypothetically — we go with Chip Kelly, will the Eagles be “a day late and a dollar short” in moving to a hybrid read-option scheme?
Looking at the 6 AFC playoff teams, everyone has a pocket passing QB. All but Brady and Manning can scramble some. All 6 offenses are conventional by current standards.
In the NFC, SF would be winning with Smith or Kappernick — but CK’s the flavor of the day and running some read-option. Seattle’s doing that with Wilson. And if the ‘Skins qualify, they are too with Griffin. The rest of the teams either in or on the bubble have mobile pocket passers (save Manning II).
The defenses Kappernick, Wilson and maybe Griffin play in the post season will be tougher than in the regular season — something Randall Cunningham saw 3 years in a row. And doubly so next season.
So is a new coach with a read-option bent the way to go? Is Mike Vick the way to go? Is Vick in the same class as Griffin and Wilson at this point, given age and habits?
Or is something more conservative in the way of an offensive scheme the way to go?
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T-Law:
We await your solution to these mysteries of the NFL universe.
And you may have only a week or so, maybe less, to unlock the answer!
One note about keeping Vick…that would be a short term solution. The Eagles would add someone else in the draft and have that player compete with Foles for the backup spot.
Excellent question about the read-option. I want to tackle that question in a post. I’m highly confused about a few things. Just when you think you have the game of football figured out,…BOOM…it changes.
Isnt that the beauty of the game? How we all said you need to pass to win in the NFL, suddenly great running teams are leading the NFL again.
I’m still a Neanderthal when it comes to winning in the NFL: Punch the other team in the mouth early, often, and with reckless disregard and the passing game will open up.
Whether I’m in the minority or not makes no difference. I continue to believe that — absent a HOF QB — success is built on being physical as hell up front.
Jon Runyan-esque, as it were.
Its funny when you look at Alex Smiths stats, they are fantastic this year, completing 70% of his passes for 8 ypa and over 2:1 td:int ratio
Yup and they were almost everyone’s pic as the number one team in the league. Now they may not even be the number one team in the division!
I, for one, really enjoyed watching JPP chase after the wrong option again and again in the ‘skins game. Who would have thought a gimmicky concept can become the bread and butter of an offense?
You won’t see that next season, after the NFL has had a chance to dissect and defend that play.
What we’ll see are LBs taking the heads off of QBs and running backs, whether they have the ball or not.
[See austinfan comment above]
It’s like the wishbone. Eventually, as high school kids grew faster, more colleges could defend the edge — not just the Miamis, OUs, and Nebraskas.
In the NFL, it seems defensive adjustments that completely destroy these kinds of throw-back offenses happen at warp speed after 1 offseason.
Didn’t Wilson just destroy what most will agree is the best defense in football. Not to mention he beat the Pats arguably the best team in the AFC, and RG3 beat the Ravens. It’s not like they haven’t beaten any quality competition while running the read option. Not to mention even Tebow won and made the playoffs running the read option, not saying he is as good as the aforementioned. The AFC is not sending any read option guys because no QB in the AFC runs the read option, so your point is not a fair assessment. However, out of 16 teams in the NFC four of them run the read option (maybe 5 with TB, but I have not seen them do it much). Out of the 6 playoff spots available to those 16 teams, it appears 3 of them will be teams will that run the read option. 2 of these teams with rookie QBs on teams that were not good last year. So that wraps up to 3/4 read option teams making the playoffs and only 3/11 conventional teams making the playoffs.
I thought I was clear: Give the NFL an off-season — then let’s see what happens.
I’m not buying into a gimmick offense (gimmick at this point) that’s led to exactly 1 team qualifying for the playoffs as of today and hasn’t been vetted by an off-season of 32 teams tearing it apart for weaknesses.
If it works next year, great. Then let’s talk.
Unfortunately, we don’t have another year to wait.
As for Tebow, the Denver defense — as it is this season — carried that team. Kept them in games at least. The Jets must have seen something in the scheme they didn’t like. Yes, the Jets are disfunctional. But Ryan et al are paid to win — not surrender.
I really can’t put much stock into whether into whether or not the Jets made the right decision, since Rex doesn’t care about offense and Sporano shouldn’t be an OC.
Also, which is the 1 team? Both SF and Seattle run the read option. Granted, SF wasn’t running it all season, but they did win some big games while running it, like in Chicago and at NE.
Other than that we will have to continue this debate next season and see who was right.
SF has also lost two of the past 4 games! Sea and Was both have RBs that are having phenomenal years. Sea has one of the best defenses in the league. There are a host of reasons why those teams are winning that don’t involve the read option. Besides, sea doesn’t really run it as a significant part of their offense. Vick has more attempts per game than Wilson. Sea “uses” it, but they don’t run it. Its more of a wrinkle. Wash and SF are the only teams that utilize it as a key portion of their offensive game plan.
The real reason those two teams are have success is because of how well their QBs are protecting the football, one thing Vick doesn’t do. Plus they are accurate, another thing Vick has never been but for about 7 games 2 ears ago before Minn showed the world that blitzing Vick rendered him an avg QB.
“SF has lost two of the past 4 games” So what these were division away games. No system is perfect and every team has losses. They are still making the playoffs and they beat premier competition when running the read option.
The RBs benefit from the read option. Willis McGahee was a yard shy of 1200 last year running the read option, and that’s coming off a year in which he had 380 yards total. The read option isn’t just about the QB. It’s helps RBs and WRs by causing hesitation in the defense. You must not watch much SEA because they use it plenty. Wilson just hands off the ball or rushes himself so it doesn’t show up in pass attempts.
The QBs are playing well, but you can’t ignore the system. Luck leads the league in picks (or close to it) due to the system and what he is asked to do. Running the read option does not require QBs to drop back read a defense and go through progressions. The QB has a primary read. If he sees it, he throws it. If not he can hand the ball off or keep it himself.
So what? They aren’t doing any better with this new wonder system is what. Now losses don’t matter?
Wilson has 40’fewer attempts than RG3 and even fewer on a per game basis than Kap. Like I said, sea uses it but it isn’t their offense the way it is in Wash and SF.
Lynch has over 1200 yds and 12 tds last year. He’s just found a new home in Sea. McGhee ran for 380 yds on 100 carries. When he ran for 1200 it was on 260. He also didn’t produce any more tds. In fact his numbers in Balt this great before getting hurt were pretty much identical to those in Den. Frank Gore is no more productive now than at any other point in his career. My point, good RBs are going to get theirs regardless of read option as long as they get the ball.
Read option is flavor du jour, just like the wildcat was. This will have more longevity because its provides more options, but defensive coordinators will attack it in creative ways that render it a part of an offense rather than the focal point. It’s exactly why Oregon doesn’t generally have success against elite defenses in college. Those same big, fast, strong guys are precisely the ones that continue in in the NFL.
Because the guys running it in the league now are rookies, their offenses have only slowly been open to them. This means that new wrinkles are constantly being added that defensive coordinators do not have much tape to go on. The NFL is about tentencies and preparation. You can only “trick” opponents so long. I suspect between familiarity and the beating that QBs take the read option will be marginal for certain teams in a matter of two years give or take.
So what? They aren’t doing any better with this new wonder system is what. Now losses don’t matter? Division games are against familiar opponents who have seen it first hand. Coincidence? I think not.
Wilson has 40’fewer attempts than RG3 and even fewer on a per game basis than Kap. Like I said, sea uses it but it isn’t their offense the way it is in Wash and SF.
Lynch has over 1200 yds and 12 tds last year. He’s just found a new home in Sea. McGhee ran for 380 yds on 100 carries. When he ran for 1200 it was on 260. He also didn’t produce any more tds. In fact his numbers in Balt this great before getting hurt were pretty much identical to those in Den. Frank Gore is no more productive now than at any other point in his career. My point, good RBs are going to get theirs regardless of read option as long as they get the ball.
Read option is flavor du jour, just like the wildcat was. This will have more longevity because its provides more options, but defensive coordinators will attack it in creative ways that render it a part of an offense rather than the focal point. It’s exactly why Oregon doesn’t generally have success against elite defenses in college. Those same big, fast, strong guys are precisely the ones that continue in in the NFL.
Because the guys running it in the league now are rookies, their offenses have only slowly been open to them. This means that new wrinkles are constantly being added that defensive coordinators do not have much tape to go on. The NFL is about tentencies and preparation. You can only “trick” opponents so long. I suspect between familiarity and the beating that QBs take the read option will be marginal for certain teams in a matter of two years give or take.
I really don’t get your correlation between pass attempts and the read option. Running the read option does mean you throw the ball a lot. Nor does it mean you only run the ball out of it. Also, Wilson’s attempts are down because in the beginning he was hidden, and he did not finish his last three games, due to being ahead by such a large margin.
In regards to Willis, he averaged a yard better per attempt, and it was pointed out by several analysts that the system was a contributing factor. He admitted as much himself.
The wildcat was different. It did not utilize players with the skill set to be actual QBs. However, the read option is being used by smart athletic QBs, who can throw.
I could definitely picture Mike coming out and blowing the doors off the Giants. McCoy and Vick have played very well against them, and I could see the two of them putting together a big game. Vick still has the ability to look like a top 10 QB for a game, and I think he’ll do that here; he just can’t do it regularly. They’ll post a meaningless victory against a listless team and screw themselves with draft position. Would have preferred to see Trent Edwards come out and show if he can be the #2 next year.
Eagles can only fall as low as 8th. From 4 to 8 shouldn’t be significant fall this year.
I saw elsewhere we could only fall to 7… how do you figure 8?
it just reduces the value of the pick, no matter what you want to do with it–use it, flip it, whatever. With one of the teams (or maybe 2) taking a QB in the top 3 purely out of need, like KC or Jacksonville, you might be able to choose from the top 2 or 3 BPA’s in the entire draft at 4. At 8, surely one, or both would be gone. Now, maybe the Eagles’ favorite player is there at 8, or they don’t even like what is available there, and trade back further, but in that case, they’d be flipping the pick to fill out the roster, and could conceivably get more with the 4th.
Personally, I’m not enamored with the top 5 talent, but I wouldn’t mind picking up an extra second, third or late rounder. This draft has a lot of NFL talent at safety; I’d draft 2 or 3, maybe Elam, Rambo and take a flyer on the Honey Badger in the 6th or 7th as a nickel specialist/safety/chess piece. Of my favorite prospects, Jesse Williams & Star would be guys I’d pick at 4 to man the nose in a 3-4. I like Banks at CB, but I’m not sure he’s worth a pick that high.
Clearly dropping back is dropping back. The fact that we can’t fall below 8th should feel good. There are some years when a win can send you back an additional 4 or 5 spots. Teams bunch up in the 7-9/8-8 range. At 4-11, we’re not all clustered up.
T-Law:
Have to disagree on a drop from 4 to 8.
As a GM, aren’t more players to choice from better?
I understand *The Board* concept and that many players hold comparable grades.
But in 2006, the Eagles could have had Ngato over Bunkley with just one more loss (not that they’d have taken him). But they’d have had the choice.
I don’t know. Seems like it’d be better to have more options.
Tommy, I don’t get why one game of Vick putting up 27- 30 would sway you either way on your decision to keep Vick. It’s not like he has never done it before as the QB for the Eagles. Vick has his short comings, but what QB doesn’t. My biggest problem with a lot of fans right now are that they kill Vick for his short comings, but have all the hope in the world that Foles will undoubtedly get over his. Vick is what he is at this point, but he can still play at a high level in this league. To say one game is make or break sounds silly to me. Also, if he does not put up 27-30, but instead puts up 17 and wins, many fans will cry out that Vick was less productive than Foles, ignoring the fact Vick is not facing a bottom 3 or 4 secondary.
Different points in the career. Not only is vick older, but Vick’s problems have been around for years. To be fair, he only started trying to fix anything when he became an Eagle learning under Andy Reid, MM, and Doug Pedersen. But still he had 2011, a full off-season and half of 2012 to if not fix these issues, atleast improve in these areas. Hasn’t happened. Accurate or not, most people are convinced that Vick won’t be heightening his game at this point in his career. Foles is a rookie. The public perception of Foles and Vick is consistent with the general perception that rookie tend to get better, and that veterans tend to go the other way.
Heightening his game- yet another issue he is not going to change.
How ’bout the Rack? That’s legal in the US now.
an unfortunately appropriate yet unintentional choice of words on my part, nice catch hahaha
All rookies don’t make a big leap. I see many fans think Foles’ short comings are easily fixable. I am not so sure. I am not saying they can’t, but they are not to be glossed over. My point is yes Vick has short comings, but so do many SB winning QBs. Ben holds on to the ball too long and is oft injured. The same can be said of Rodgers in regards to trying to make a play. Eli can be erratic, and shows the inability to get the ball out there at times. I get that Foles has potential, just how much is yet to be seen. However, I don’t get the notion that Foles would be so much better in a balanced offense in which he was only asked to throw 25 times per games, yet the same can’t be said about Vick. He didn’t have a big play offense down in Atlanta, and was very successful.
Absolutely right, there are no guarantees with Foles. And the coaching change actually makes regression a very possible outcome as well. It is entirely possible that Foles makes no progress on his deficiencies and that Mike Vick will be the best hope for winning atleast for the short term (hopefully with a renegotiated contract). Heck, Vick could be a very good option in the right system. But again, most Eagles fans are hoping for Nick Foles to develop into our long term solution as franchise QB, if not, it doesn’t look like we will see one until 2014 atleast. It won’t be easy, but things like arm strength and accuracy CAN be improved with mechanics, conditioning, and building chemistry/timing with his receivers.
But like you said, not all rookies make that LEAP, most don’t infact, which is why the average NFL career is about 3.5-6 years long (depending on your source). But I can hope haha.
I am glad someone sees where I am coming from, and again just because Foles isn’t the guy in 2013 does not mean he couldn’t take over in 2014 or 2015. This will give him more time to fix those mechanics, similar to how GB tooled Rodgers. I just want to t=know the best guy is going into the season as the starter. I don’t want to be one of those teams experimenting with an overachieving young guy hoping to be 8-8, while seeing flashes that keep him the starter for another year.
I’m not sure I buy a defense of Vick predicated on the fact that other SB winning QB’s have shortcomings, as well. Eli, Ben & Aaron all had SB rings before they turned 30–Ben & Eli had 2 of them! They made signature plays in those games as well–even during the first Superbowl, which he’s largely thought to have been a caretaker QB for, Rothelisberger made some big 3rd down plays.
I’d love for Vick to be the guy we thought he’d transformed into, but he is what he is at this point. It’s been floated that his best chance of sticking with the Eagles is the hiring of Chip Kelly. I contend that while Vick might be able to do some of the physical things Kelly would want, his body would not be able to take the punishment, and his ball security would be an even bigger issue than it was in Andy’s system–where it was pretty big. I’m thinking Vick could set a new NFL record for fumbles, if he were able to survive 16 games of a Kelly offense.
Wholeheartedly agree about Foles, though. Very big holes in his game. He plays very deliberately, and I’ll believe the “it’s just mechanics” thing about the deep ball when he can change his mechanics and fix it. Say what you want about a dink-and-dunk west coast offense, but the NFL’s high powered attacks are based on “shot plays”–which is why Colin Kaepernick is starting over Alex Smith, why Russell Wilson is starting over Matt Flynn, and why Desean Jackson is getting paid 10 mil. You need a QB that can threaten a team deep in today’s NFL.
Granted there are QBs who won SBs at a young age, but what about those who took a little longer, like Elway and Peyton. These guys were great in their own rite but needed things to fall the right way. If our defense was able to hold on to just one of the leads in the game they lost in 2011, who knows what would have happened. As far as Vick holding up he was knocked out this year due to a concussion. That can happen to anyone. Not to mention he took arguably the worst beating of any QB before getting a concussion, and got back up. Foles has only played 6 games, took significantly less punishment, and is already injured. Injuries happen. Having Foles over Vick does not guarantee that the starter will stay healthy. Therefore I want the best man available at the position, and if he goes down, that’s why we have backups.
I appreciate the toughness, but the guy plays the game too hard for his body, and brings the injuries on himself, like Bob Sanders. He’s broken ribs how many times as the Eagles starter? Hand, thumb, head, whatever. It’s always something. Hanging onto the ball, running around trying to make a play, like in a sandlot exacerbates the protection problems. He hasn’t learned how to slide after how many years? That’s just embarrassing. Wasn’t the play he got concussed on a free play b/c of a defensive holding by Morris Claiborne? When there was nothing there downfield, he took off and ran for 3 yards before having 320 pounds of Jay Ratliff pancake him into the turf. That was a FREE PLAY! There was no need to possibly absorb punishment for 3 lousy yards.
Elway and Peyton were top QB’s in their era, before winning a SB. Except for 2010, Vick has never been a top QB. He’s been a dangerous football player that can run and throw, but never a consistent top QB of an offense. To think he’s going to do that now, is just too wishful for me.
I’m fully expecting Vick to come out and play with reckless abandon. I’m thinking we’re going to see something similar to when he came into the game to relieve Kolb in the GB game. The point is, no one can win like that week to week in the NFL. Nobody.
There are some fans out there that hate Vick just because of who he is but I really liked Vick since his Atlanta days. And I felt that he was treated unfairly by the media after he served his time. I also felt like he made great progress in his life and took responsibility for the mistakes that he made in his life. That being said I’m an Eagles fan and I know Vick’s along with Reid’s time is over in Philly. They’ve done some good things together (mostly in 2010) but its time to move on for all parties. One of the reasons I want both Reid and Vick to leave is that I feel they would do better in a different setting
Notice I said…”If Vick could play a clean game and lead the offense to 27 to 30 points, maybe that would change my mind.”
The part about the clean game is key. No turnovers. No dumb almost-turnovers.
Also, we’re talking about him playing really well in a balanced offense and then projecting into that kind of an offense in 2013. We’re not talking about another year of him/Andy/Marty throwing 42 passes a game.
Finally…”maybe that would change my mind”. I might watch the performance and still see too much of the Vick of the last 2 years and say no thank you. I’m trying to keep an open mind here, but that doesn’t mean that a good game will definitely change my way of thinking.
I think Vick is going to be pressing to impress and look possessed. I’d be impressed if he stayed within the offense, but I’m expecting a mess and to end up distressed, with Vick possibly concussed. Yes.
It doesn’t matter what Vick does against the Giants:
1) he’s not worth $16M
2) he’s 33 next year
3) he can’t stay healthy
4) he can’t grow in height or suddenly learn to quickly read a defense.
Vick worked hard, improved his game, but what we’ve seen since the end of 2010 is that he’s just too old to develop a feel for the pocket (Foles as a rookie has a better feel for pressure) or to rapidly go through his progressions and anticipate a WR coming open. He’s not even a good stop gap because of his durability issues, he doesn’t see himself as a backup (shades of McNabb) and he’s no longer the uber athlete that could make the read option unstoppable (until he broke down).
1) My point was why should it matter what he does against the Giants
2) He’s younger than some of the best QBs in the league and still has all the physical tools
3) Who could’ve stayed healthy with the beating he was taking? With a better system he could last an entire season (No doubt he can take a hit and get back up)
4) Wilson and Brees are short, but run in better systems. Wilson’s play calls are designed to get him better throwing lanes. Look at Brees has struggled without Payton.
Vick’s pocket presence issues can be assisted with play calling and better line play. Many times this year he barely had a pocket to be aware within. Also, if he wasn’t asked to do so many 7 step drops, WRs would come open quicker. I agree he isn’t what he used to be physically, however he is still the second fastest QBs in the league and has a better arm than most.
He may not be an Eagle next year, but I do not believe he is done, and I think he will show that he is a better QB than any other option we have in 2013.
2) he doesn’t have the mental tools, which are more important!
3) exactly how many seasons has Vick played full year in his career? You realize that the beating he’s taken actually effects him going forward. It’s not like he can just magically reverse all these injuries.
4)!he Saints are struggling without Payton. Brees is going to throw for 5000 yds and 40 tds and under 20 ints. I’ll take that struggling any day.
Vick has never had pocket presence because he’s always relied on athleticism. You aren’t changing that now that he’s taken a physical beating and constantly looking over his shoulder.
Forget Vick, he won’t negotiate to be a backup and they’re not paying him $16M.
He got his chance, proved he’s no more than a mediocre pocket QB, he could win behind a good OL with a solid running game and receivers who can get deep, but heck, so could a lot of QBs.
If he was 28, you could invest another year trying to develop his pocket skills, but at age 33, with a horrible history of getting injured, why bother?
Vick can’t run the read option, he’d have to learn to make the reads on the option, which takes a while to become instinctive, and the read option is DOA anyway, as a DC I’d attack it simply by having my DE or LB hit the QB every time they run the play, don’t worry about personal fouls, refs will be more reluctant to call anything but a blow to the head when the QB is acting as a RB. After you hit the QB 3 or 4 times, the opposing HC will tell his OC to stop risking their franchise. Same way Buddy destroyed the “chuck and duck,” kill the head and the body follows, kill the QB and the read option becomes just another failed gimmick.
Right. That’s why running the read option has put 2 rookie QBs and a first time starting 2nd year QB into the playoffs (No faith in Dallas). I will not argue whether or not Vick can run the read option because I have never seen him do it, however it does work. In the past 2 years it has gotten Tebow, RG3, Wilson, and Kap to the postseason. Not to mention Cam has looked really good as of late. There are more QBs able to actually run this system, and soon it may even result in a SB. Then all the conventional dropback passing rhetoric will finally be done with.
Also, in order to succeed with WRs who can get deep, you need to be able to throw the deep ball. Something the young guy can’t do all too well.
Vick ran the read option at V-Tech. Played in a National Title Game._____________
But for every Wilson and Griffin, there are Brady, Manning, Flacco, Dalton, Luck, and Schaub going to the playoffs.
Let’s see how this offense does in the post-season . . . when the best of the best defenses are scheming, with greater focus, on trying to take the heads off of Wilson and Griffin.
_____________
You make a great point that college football is filled with read-option guys.
How many of these guys to you keep on the Eagles roster to fill in for Vick after he suffers his first of 2 or 3 injuries starting in TC?
I never watched Vick in college so I wouldn’t know what he ran. I am also not saying we should keep Vick to become a read option team. I was just pointing out that it’s not necessarily a gimmick if you have the right personnel and QB.
I agree there will always be a place for the dropback passer in football. I just don’t think that’s the only way to win anymore. Here are 3 young QBs doing it another way, and I believe Cam will be there once he gets some better coaching and talent around him.
You bring up the competition Wilson and RG3 will be facing, but didn’t Wilson put 42 on SF, arguably the best D in the league. RG3 beat Baltimore. These are wins against quality playoff teams. You are the second guy to bring up playoff defenses, but really what defenses are you referring to? The Falcons? Green Bay? Minnesota? None of these defense scream top 5. Nor are they known to punch people in the mouth.
Cam is the only guy who can run it because he’s bigger than most of the guys tackling him, but as Culpepper showed, even big athletic QBs break down, see McNabb and Big Ben as well.
Wilson hardly runs it, it’s more of a sideshow with him. Same way pocket QBs will run a QB draw per game just to keep the defense honest.
With RGIII, it’s a rookie QB gimmick which will not be around by year 3 because he’s too valuable to risk, he already had a close call and he doesn’t have the body to take a pounding.
As pro DCs get to see this, they’ll practice against it in the offseason and stop it the same way the top college defenses stop it, and QBs will take a beating. It worked this year because it’s such a novelty.
Culpepper didn’t break down so much as he tore everthing ending with CL in a knee and was never the same. Maybe not relevant to your point though, as I tend to agree for the most part.
Top college defenses stop it with better talent and winning the battle upfront. Wilson uses it plenty, especially in crucial situations. I get the skepticism that this can work long term. Players such as McNabb and Vick have come and gone after being predicted to change the league. However, there have not been QBs like the ones we are seeing now. RGIII is every bit as fast as Vick, but much more accurate and wants to throw. Running the read option doesn’t mean that every play is read option just like running a conventional offense doesn’t mean every play is a 3 step drop. However with these new QBs who have the ability to be pocket passers, but the talent to run the ball I do not see the read option going anywhere. Minus the obvious getting the QB hurt, there are a lot of benefits. RBs get initial hesitation. WRs and TEs go against safeties who are stuck looking in the backfield. I get the well just kill the QB, but that won’t work in the NFL, a league that protects their QBs among all else. Peyton, Brady, and Brees are soon to be out of the league. (Due to age) Wilson, RG3, Cam, and Kap are soon to be the faces of the NFL. Do you really think the league will allow them to be viciously pommeled when they don’t have the ball in their hands. It’s not like we are talking about a QB option where the QB is already running out in space. These QBs are in shotgun behind center when they make the decision to hand it off. If they keep it sure they get popped, but if they hand it off and get hit that will be 15 yards easy. And I get if you were DC you would eat those 15 yards, but what bout the subsequent fines and suspensions. No player is going to listen to you when you are now putting their livelihood at stake for one hit in one game that may do nothing but result in 15 yards and a first down.
The league will allow it for the same reason you can pummel a pocket QB who holds the ball too long (Vick, Big Ben) – the read option requires the QB to hold the ball until the defense commits – but NFL defenders are a lot faster than college defenders and will get a lot of free shots.
Remember, once DCs start analyzing the read option they’ll recognize clues that QBs subconsciously give when making the decision to keep or toss, and they’ll have their players focusing on those signals. Teams hesitate right now because they didn’t practice against the read option in the offseason – and with all the college QBs out there, teams can add a 4th QB just to give their defense a good look at the play.
The read option will always be used, the way Seattle does it, a couple times a game – Wilson’s success is primarily due to the threat posed by Lynch in the running game, which makes play action and bootlegs effective, if Lynch got hurt, Wilson would look ordinary in a hurry.
The difference being QBs that hold onto the ball still have the ball when they are getting hit. And really subconscious clues, don’t make me laugh. These QBs are deciding whether or not to keep it based on what the defense shows. That’s why it’s called a read option. It isn’t called predetermined QB draw. That would just be a QB draw. Also, remember the QB is in shotgun with the option of handing off the ball. If he hands the ball off very seldom if ever is a D lineman going to be quick enough to hit the QB and not draw a flag.
I think alot of folks are reading too much into the signing of Dixon. I mean Flethcer Cox does have a concussion and might not play vs the giants
Hopefully Fletch won’t be out for 2 years
For me, 1 game isn’t going to change my mind about what has been 2 years of mediocre to poor QB work. We all know Vick can be sensational when he’s on his game but he has too many deficiencies for me to want him to come back. Even if I didn’t like Nick Foles I’d rather give the snaps next year to a youngster than to someone who’s a 1 or 2 year rental.
Re: Chip Kelly to Tampa – 2012
One question occurs to me about the Kelly-to-Tampa story, if it’s true.
I don’t know why he backed out . . . but:
Why does Kelly agree to coach a team with a 6′ 6″ 250lb pocket-passing QB?
Are the alleged nuptials (before the groom ran home) an indication that Kelly is NOT wedded at all to the *running sheme* portion of his high-tempo offense, just the high-tempo part?
He have said him self that the running game is the foundation of his scheme
Okay. Granted.
But where would a 250 lb QB who runs a 4.94 in the 40 ydd at the Combine fit into that scheme?
I’m all for running the ball first (being a self-described Neanderthal from the Jim Brown/Jim Taylor/Leroy Kelly/Tom Matte era).
But if Chip Kelly went to Tampa, then he was NOT — could NOT — run the hybrid read-option scheme the way he does at Oregon.
Not the same way, at least.
I think one of Kelly’s strengths is that he can adapt his scheme to his QB. Also he does not really run the read-option that much compared to what you saw from Cam Newton, Tim Tebow or RG3, but instead its a more zone based rushing attack with some added power rushing by pulling guards.
It does seem like a lot of ppl confuse the stuff Kelly does with the offense Urban Meyer or Gus Malzahn uses where the QB runs a ton.
yea, I was confused at first my self, but I have a serious man crush on Chip Kelly and therefor read a ton about his offense.
Somebody linked to a site called fishduck.com the other day, really great read about the Ducks offense and defense.
“If the DE chases the RB, (Above) then the QB pulls the ball and runs through the gap from where the DE was. So it doesn’t matter where the DE goes…the ball ain’t here! As a defensive coordinator you don’t want the QB running down the backside of your defense and picking up big yards, thus most defenses will force the handoff to the RB by sitting in the gap.”
How do you stop the Oregon Offense? It is the same way as any other offense and it’s simple. Defeat the blocks. By announcing the play in advance with the formation–we experience more negative plays losing yardage than anyone else. (Above) Yet that element of the offense is what makes us one of the most explosive offenses in the nation!
“A big reason for the success of the play is BECAUSE we announce it in advance with our IZR formation. Defenses over-react to where the play is going, and it creates huge gaps elsewhere. The RBs in this offense are to check the gap we are attacking, but take a quick look around; if another hole opens up elsewhere that is better—he has the green light to
go for it!”
“The final component that makes the Inside Zone Read work so well are all the complimentary plays, the ancillary plays that spin off the IZR formation. We may line up in an IZR formation, but then throw the bubble screen to the sideline. (above) We may run a power play to the other side of the LOS when the defense is so focused upon stopping the IZR gap. (The power play has become another bread-and-butter running play that we’ll look at in a future report) We have speed double option plays that run the other direction from where the IZR looks to be attacking. Finally we have a devastating set of play-action passes that begin with the Ducks lining up in the IZR formation and beginning to run the mesh, only to rear up and throw to a wide open WR for huge plays.”
“t is evident that while these examples show the preparation and execution of the Cardinal defense — it takes more than a few strategies like these to stop Oregon. This is the closest that Oregon has come to seeing defensive talent similar to the Auburns, Ohio States, or LSUs of the past.”
“Stanford’s defensive linemen are aligned in a “Bear” front meaning that the defensive ends are lined up in the tackle-guard gap, or “B-Gap.” The Cardinal D-Line complicate matters by pinching down on the offensive line, which will set up some problems for Oregon’s blocking scheme.”
“One of Oregon’s schematic advantages comes from adding a blocker to the playside through reading the backside
defender. Stanford realized that Oregon was reading the interior defenders, so they simply took the interior defender away from the backside of the defensive line.”
Was just watching some old Vick highlights. Man, that guy is so talented. Just so damn talented. I think Foles is going to be a legitimate NFL starter someday and that he’s already progressed to the point where time on the bench isn’t really going to benefit him. He needs to play.
But the more I mull things over, the more I think a Vick/Kelly marriage might work really well…for a couple of seasons at least.
Kelly’s offense, though high octane and high tempo, is run based. And I don’t just mean the read-option (Which I think will be a short-lived NFL offensive tool). If Vick got to hand the ball off 30 plus times a game, and throw it 20-25 times, maybe less, that could be the perfect recipe for success for Vick’s talents AND shortcomings.
It really bugs me that people talk about how good Wilson and RGIII have been, but don’t take into account that they’re running the exact type of balanced, run to set up the pass offense we all want to see the Eagles employ. If Vick OR Foles had that, they’d do far better than they have to this point.
Balance is good.
If Kelly wants to come in and run a balanced pro-style offense, then let’s get him — assuming he’s a great organizer, motivator, delegates well, can relate to 28 year-old millionaires, has the sense to bring in coordinators with lots of NFL experience . . . and he can adapt.
Dick Vermeil ran the Veer at UCLA (split backs / read-option off the dive play). He came to the NFL and ran a pro-style offense. What made him great was his ability to motivate, organize, and adapt.
_____________
But if getting Kelly is about being the Eagles “smarter than everyone else” by getting the best guy in the universe running the read-option, then that would be very disappointing.
” great organizer, motivator, delegates well” I know he can do this 3 things. Chip Kelly runs the most well organized trainings in all of football, he seems like a great motivator and he knows not to interfere with the defense and just let his coordinator fix that.
Also as I replied above, Kelly does not really run the read-option, but a zone option scheme (zone option reminds alot of how Shanahan likes to run, read a zone and attack that) .
Anders:
Yes on the name of Kelly’s offense.
He calls it a *hybrid* read-option offense (I believe). Nothing like the veer, ‘bone, or wildcat. The pass is a big part, too.
I’m warming up to the idea of Chip Kelly. Even though as fans we really have no idea what we are getting or who we’d truly want as coach because of guys like Reid and Mike Smith that are out there and are fine head coaches who we really don’t know well before they get a shot, the things I read about Kelly and the Patriots and offensive innovation, and Kelly not caring about glad-handing the Oregon boosters I liked.
I think Kelly is maybe the only guy who keeps Vick around. And strangely, I believe Vick is both the source of many of our problems the past two seasons, and possibly the best quarterback for this team in 2013. I think they could make a good pair, those two.
I appreciate the above comments on Kelly. I think if we covet him, it’s for the right reasons. We need more than just an offensive innovator. Need an overall leader.
http://fishduck.com/2012/04/coach-chip-kelly-explains-the-oregon-spread-offense/
Read this. Its a great read on how Kelly thinks football. He make it sound so simple.
This was suppose to be a reply to D3Keith and Im not sure why it says Im a Guest
It’s showing me Anders, and I saw where you posted that link elsewhere. I’m on it like Bluebonnet.
yea I just read it and posted it on BGN. Its such a great read. His ideas seems so simple yet so refreshing compared to AR (and I love AR)
I think it’s fantastic that before he even finishes the first paragraph, he talks about his job being to put players in a position to succeed. That “whoosh!” sound you just heard is the hackles of every Reid basher in Eagles nation being raised.
T-Law:
Mike Vick has never proven himself to be a franchise QB for a number of reasons — all of which you’ve recited ad nauseum.
Why would the Eagles bet their season next year on a 33 year-old QB who’s injury prone, poor at reading the blitz, inclined to run first when receivers are open downfield (a lot).
Do you see the Eagles defense stepping up several notches to pre-McD days? That would make keeping Vick more digestible.
But let’s move on. The Vick experiment failed because Vick failed. (Naysayers: O-line in place all last year . . . but MV had the same problems as this year.)
T-Law, no more Christmas Breaks for you, clearly there has been a build up of crap (thoughts of Eagles) on our minds that we now need to get out of our systems all at once. You provide a valuable community service, responsibility sir!
Hear, hear.
Vick is going rogue on Sunday. Bet on it. He’s going to play like Atlanta-style Vick and hope it looks like RGIII. Did you see his comments in praise of Griffin?
I like Vick and am in the minority who hopes he could return next year under a smaller contract and a offensive coach who can play to his strengths. But I think Vick has to go for self here and will be auditioning for a 2013 job, not trying to hand off to McCoy and Brown however many times. Not that MM would call a bunch of run plays anyway.
But what are his strengths at 32+?
I think he still can throw it on a rope, and even a slower Vick is still faster than most QBs.
Perhaps he could flourish in an offense that’s either simplified, or forces him to get the ball out more quickly so delayed blind-side blitzes don’t murder him.
I’m probably reaching, but part of me watches RGIII and thinks Vick can still do most of that … except maybe the throw-five-interceptions-over-the-course-of-a-season part.
The thing is, Vick’s perceived lack of strengths at 32+ may not command him much on the open market, not even a guarantee of a starting job. In which case, we might as well — depending on who the new coach is and if he wants Vick — let him stay in town and compete with Foles for the job. I don’t think Vick ending up as a backup after losing a competition is quite the PR disaster McNabb was/would have been.
I just don’t want to be too quick to dismiss the possibility that Vick might be the best QB for this team in 2013 and Philly might be the best city for him.
That said, I’ve warmed up to Foles. And everything has to do with the hire anyway. There is still a foundation of decent talent on both sides of the ball so it’s really all about getting it to function like a winning team would. But having an above-average quarterback would be nice too.
Anybody like the idea of using our top pick on one of these QBs? Maybe even trading back and ending up with Smith?
The QBs might shoot up the board late, although there’s not that much competition out there. Arizona. Jets. Maybe Bills and Jags.
I saw Glennon mentioned, but I don’t see much point in using a 2nd or later on a guy who can do what Foles can do.
Also we might dip into the free-agent waters. Any intriguing reclamation projects? Sorry to be the guy who mentions Mark Sanchez and Geno Smith+Chip Kelly in the same post, as though big names solve all problems.
I’d be happy with Joeckel plus Peters, Kelce, Herremans back and Foles at QB … and I realize it’s premature to really analyze until we hire the coach … I guess I just asked like 14 questions in stream-of-consciousness form so nobody will really answer. Lol.
I really couldn’t be more against “reaching” for a QB in the first round. I know you have to do everything, and expend all the resources you can to make sure you get the right guy to lead your franchise at QB. But I feel like using a high pick on a questionable prospect like Smith or Barkley or Glennon is just a poor allocation of said resources. Especially when you already have a good, but still clearly flawed, young project in Foles.
Interesting. I’m not sure where I stand yet.
On one hand, if you don’t fall in love with Smith or Barkley, then by all means, roll with Foles. On the other, not being Luck or Griffin might not be a good enough reason to pass on drafting a QB with first-round talent.
If neither has categorically more upside than Foles, or Foles plus whichever potential 10-year starter at a position like T that we could draft, then fine. But with having a franchise QB basically being the end-all be-all anymore, we might want to take this opportunity to put more than one egg in our basketball, especially if we’re looking at 7-9 and pick No. 14 the next time a Luck/Griffin-type prospect comes out.
I hear ya. At this point, it basically boils down to what you think of Nick Foles. I think he’s shown enough that he needs to play, with a full complement of starting players around him, to determine his long-term future.
But every draft is different. This is a year where “first round talent” doesn’t mean what it did in other years. Especially last year. Smith and/or Barkley probably wouldn’t have been in the conversation as first round picks last year. They’re forced up draft boards because it’s a weak class and teams prioritize QB (rightly so). That scares the heck out of me, and makes me extremely hesitant about committing a high value resource to bringing in a guy who would, to me, be Foles version 2.0.
FWIW, I’d be intrigued to see Foles on a team that leans on a McCoy/Brown-led running game and a great OL, and a respectable defense.
Re: Chip Kelly — Passing Demon (or “Anders made me do it”)
Kelly’s Oregon offense this year was led by freshman QB Marcus Mariota.
Mariota attempted 312 passes in 12 games or about 26 per game, with an 8.05 avg per attempt. (As a team, the Ducks attempted 349 passes.)
By comparison, Georgia’s Aaron Murray — playing an NFL style offense — attempted 353 passes in 13 games . . . or about 27 per game.
Seems very intriguing.
But I still want to know more about why Oregon’s offense was stoned by Auburn in 2010 and Stanford in 2012.
I know Stanford won this year because they won the LOS and I think it was the same with Auburn. The closest example I can give to this is why the Giants won over the Pats in SB 2007/2008 season
RE: Auburn – Nick Fairley. Also, there were several INTs in the first quarter.
There hasn’t been a move that I want the Eagles to make more the past several years than releasing Vick this offseason. Vick has become a turnover machine who is banged-up most of the time & has missed a lot of game time since ’11.
Time to go in a different direction for several reasons including a new coaching staff and offensive coordinator in here next year.
Even if Vick stayed and Kelly came in as the coach, what is the maximum upside potential in that scenario? I say 9 wins and a possible wildcard birth next year and that is if almost everything breaks right next year which almost never happens to an NFL team. Much more likely Vick misses a decent chunk of time again & the Eagles end up at 6-7 wins in that scenario with a weaker schedule.
I don’t agree that everything has to break right to reach 9 wins. We’ve got 4 wins after everything broke about as wrong as could possibly have happened. I think 8-9 wins is the median for a team with these players (healthy) and an at least competent coach. 10-11 if everything breaks right and we shed the demons of the past.
How would the defense improve that much next year to enable them to win 10-11 games?
They have won 4 games this year and only done so by the skin of their teeth in each of those wins. There hasn’t been a single game this year where the Eagles have won by double digits either.
This is just a bad team that has a pretty serious rebuilding job in front of it and there isn’t going to be a QB in the draft or via FA/coach who come in next year that will enable this team to win in double digits.
I am not a ‘doom and gloomer’ who thinks the Eagles are going to be moribund for years to come but I just see how this team wins 10+ games next year.
I would be satisfied if they were competitive, figured out what the answer at QB might be over the next few years, and began to rebuild this sieve of a defense.
Haven’t they also lost by the skin of their teeth? I just think with injuries, scheme, etc., it’s been about the worst year possible for this collection of players. They’re of course partly to blame, but there’s no way that this team is as lacking in talent as teams like Jacksonville, Cleveland, etc. The current record is as bad as it can possibly get.
I’m not saying this is a championship team, I’m saying, that at least 8-8 is what would be expected without the worst or best happening. 10 wins is achievable if everything goes right. That’s best case, given what we have now. That’s really not saying all that much. I see this as a 7-9 win team, with 10-11 being EVERYTHING hitting just right. In other words, every time the wind blows, the other team has a turnover instead of us, as it has seemed this whole year.
They have lost 3 games where they could have tied it with one score (FG or TD/PAT)
Steelers L, 16-14
Lions L, 26-23 (OT)
Skins L, 27-20
7 of their losses have been by double digits. This is just a bad team that has had their problems compounded by so many injuries on the offensive-side of the ball.
3-6 with Vick as their starter and even if they catch some breaks in those games above they might have a max of 6 wins going into the final week.
Eh, you have to go a little beneath the surface if you want to use this season’s results to predict the future.
Personally I would throw out just about everything post-Castillo. The team starting a very green Foles, Dallas Reynolds, Bryce Brown et. al. is not the team that will be running out there most of next season.
Bottom line, there’s enough talent to be competitive, if the draft and the new coach are any good, and Peters/Kelce/Herremans are all back to form.
I agree it’s a bad team, but I think it has a lot more pieces than most rebuilding teams. Not being certain about the QB is a big issue no doubt, but I would think this team could be competitive (and there’s not often a ton of difference between 6-10 and 10-6 in the NFL) right away, even with Foles, if they are well-coached, disciplined and take advantage of the talent already here.
Considering the Eagles tend to be in a constant state of rebuild, they don’t have to tear down so much as refresh at a lot of positions. Guys who have been bad the past two years but had been good beforehand might deserve one more shot in a new scheme. Or you might say why waste that year, go completely bear cupboard like the Colts and perhaps get similar results.
I do agree here:”I would be satisfied if they were competitive, figured out what the answer at QB might be over the next few years.”
But because of the talent of the pieces already in place, that doesn’t have to be the ceiling. This is not Jacksonville, even though the team has nearly the same record. Taking some of these same parts and using them more efficiently could produce wildly different results IMO.
Oh I don’t think we can know the maximum upside since we don’t know how Kelly’s offense would play in the NFL, and we don’t know who’s running the D.
This is an offseason where expectations and wants will skew all over the place. We are going to have to trust the new regime.
If Kelly would rather have Vick for 1-2 more years than Foles, what can we do but wait and see? If Mike Zimmer or whoever wants Alex Smith and McCoy/Brown and a stout D, how can we argue? If someone comes in and develops Foles, it’s hard to look at that as bad, given the other QB options.
The only thing I feel at this point is that this team, er, group of players, just with the OL healthy and most of the same personnel back — perhaps with some added safeties — should be better than 4-5 wins. By several.
Vick has run read options offense last yr in atlanta when he rush for 1,000 there highlight of that. It not the question can it be substantial long time.
So….no Eagles made the probowl….and that seem about right….well scratch that. Mathis deserved the probowl more than Snee.
Per John Gonzalez at CSNPhilly:
“While he talked with reporters about returning to Philly, one of his teammates walked by and shouted, ‘Welcome back, Dix.'”
soo…..we replaced Cox with Dix and signed Dix to a 2 year contract in hopes of having the Cox and Dix tandem.