Quick Coaching Update: Kelly, Reid, O’Brien
Posted: January 3rd, 2013 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 76 Comments »It is now official that the Eagles will meet with Chip Kelly. The Eagles haven’t confirmed this, but multiple reports have said he’s one of 3 teams in the hunt. The Bills are another. The final team is the Browns…and Mr. Joe Banner.
Should we worry that Banner and Lurie are going head-to-head for Kelly, assuming he is the top target for both guys? Absolutely. The Browns have a new owner in Jimmy Haslam. I’m sure he and Banner want to make a great hire. Haslam is a huge Tennessee Volunteers fan. Back in 2010 he watched Oregon go to Knoxville and beat his beloved Vols 48-13. I think Haslam will be easily sold on Kelly as a great coaching candidate.
Banner would love to get the best of Lurie and the Eagles and steal away Kelly. Banner and Lurie were lifelong friends, but things got complicated in the last 2 years and Lurie sided with Andy Reid in a bizarre football love triangle. That set in motion the events that led to Banner hitting the road to Cleveland. I don’t know that Banner and Lurie are enemies. That seems a bit melodramatic, but Joe is anti-Eagle right now and would love to hire Kelly.
From Chip Kelly’s perspective, which situation is better? Hard to say. I think working for Jeff Lurie would appeal to him. Lurie will spend money. He’s hands-on enough that you can have a good relationship with him, but Lurie won’t micro-manage and pretend he’s a football genius. Haslam is a complete unknown. Most new owners want to be involved (Lurie was that way) and can step on some toes as they figure out what they’re doing.
I won’t do a full personnel breakdown because that would take a great deal of time and be very subjective. I do think both teams have some pieces that Kelly will like on offense. I’m sure he’d love the 1-2 punch of Shady and Bryce. I think he’d love the Eagles athletic OL. Celek is his kind of TE. I’m not sure about the WRs. My guess is that Kelly would prefer bigger guys, but he might really enjoy coaching someone with DeSean’s speed.
The Browns have a good OL that Kelly would like. Trent Richardson is a stud RB, but isn’t exactly what Kelly is used to. I think Kelly would like the Browns set of big WRs. They would need to upgrade at TE.
As for QB…neither team is ideal. Both Nick Foles and Brandon Weeden are pocket passers. We actually might have an advantage here. The Eagles spent a 3rd round pick on Foles. The team would love for him to be the starter of the future, but if he’s only a backup…that’s fine for a 3rd round pick. Weeden was a 1st round pick. He’s older. The Browns would probably hate to think of him as the guy who will keep the job until Kelly finds “his guy”.
Here’s the thing about QB…Kelly is a gifted offensive mind. He has built offenses around RBs and QBs. He’s had QBs run a ton and not all that much. He can and will adjust to his personnel. Kelly has a vision in his head for what he wants an offense to be. I don’t know exactly what that is. In college, it involves a mobile QB that can run just enough to affect the defense and open things up for the other players. We don’t yet know if that model is sustainable in the NFL. RG3 took a beating this year. Do you want to risk having your franchise QB getting hit that much?
For the short term, Kelly could go with Nick Foles as the starter. He would then look to the draft and try to find someone who is a better fit for what he wants to do. This is a poor group of top QBs so the pick might come in the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th round. Even that player won’t be a sure thing. We might have to wait for 2014 before Kelly could find the QB he really wants.
Or maybe he and Foles would hit it off. Maybe Kelly would sign some FA and love that guy. You never know. We need to hear Kelly talk about his vision for an NFL offense. He won’t do that until he’s hired somewhere. My guess is that he’d love a guy like Colin Kaepernick. Colin has a strong arm. He’s mobile. He’s also big enough that he can take hits and deal with them.
If the Eagles hire Chip Kelly, we’ll start talking about possible draft targets. Until the hiring, let’s concentrate on the coaching side of things. The bottom line is that there is a lot of mystery with Kelly and what he’ll want to do.
More than a few people have asked about Michael Vick. I don’t think Kelly would want him. Vick is a great athlete and has the mobility that Kelly would probably love. However, Vick also takes too many sacks and turns the ball over too much. Kelly is fanatical about sacks. He can’t stand negative plays. In Kelly’s mind, the QB should make a quick read and throw the pass or get rid of the ball if no one is open. Vick has bad habits that go back to Virginia Tech because coaches looked to him to be a playmaker and not a QB who simply ran the offense.
Kelly also would have to wonder what the upside is to keeping Vick. Clearly Vick is too old to be a player you build around. He’s a short term fix. Kelly might prefer a young QB that he can control better on and off the field. Vick is a Reid guy. After a bad game would Vick say something that accidentally or intentionally questioned Kelly vs Reid. The young or new QB is more likely to stay on message and say what Kelly wants. And of course, money is a huge issue. Vick would have to take a huge pay cut to even be worth possibly keeping. He might not want to do that. Vick might feel he could do better getting cut and hitting the open market.
I didn’t cover defense with either team because I don’t know Kelly’s feelings there. I’m sure there are players on both rosters that he would love and a few he’d hate. He would hire a veteran defensive guru to run that side of things. Kelly just needs to know that the team he’s joining has some defensive pieces to work with. Both the Eagles and Browns do. Guys like Cox, Graham, Thornton, Curry, and Kendricks are very young and have bright futures. Veterans like Cole, Ryans, Jenkins, and DRC have all been to a Pro Bowl.
What about misc factors? Both teams have good stadiums. Both have rabid fanbases. My guess is that Kelly would prefer to live in Philly, but that’s just a hunch. He’s been in Oregon and New Hampshire for the last 15 years. Moving to a big city will be an adjustment no matter which one he picks. I would think the Eagles would have an advantage in being in the NFC East. That means lots of TV games. The AFC North is the black ‘n blue division. Chip wouldn’t play that way, but I don’t know that he’d want to be playing those type teams if he had a choice. Weather should also be less of a factor with the Eagles.
The presence of Howie Roseman could hurt or help matters. Cleveland just fired Tom Heckert. They need someone to run their Personnel Dept. Kelly could help hire that guy, but there would be some unknowns. Roseman is established. He’s got scouts in place that he knows. Howie could talk to Kelly about specifics. Here is our grading system. Here’s why we picked the guys we did. This is how things work. Since Kelly is new to the NFL, he might like that foundation already being in place.
Of course, there was the report that Bill Belichick doesn’t like Howie Roseman and that could sour things. Chip Kelly has a relationship with Belichick and could ask his advice about teams and owners/GMs. We’ll know if Kelly takes the job that the report was likely bogus and more speculation rather than fact.
I think the Eagles should have the upper hand in the fight for Chip Kelly, but the over-eager duo of Banner and Haslam could change that if they blow him away with money and power. Normally Joe is a shrewd negotiator, but if he’s a bit desperate here, watch out.
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Andy Reid has met with KC. Next up is Arizona and San Diego. I think he could do great things in KC if he hired the right defensive coordinator. San Diego is probably the place he’d prefer to go.
Arizona seems least likely because I don’t know that the Bidwills will want to pay big money for a coach. Reid isn’t going to be cheap.
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BGN has a report up on Bill O’Brien and the Eagles. Penn State beat writer David Jones was on 97.5 and said if the Eagles offer him the job “He’s gone”.
This remains the most complex angle to the coaching search. O’Brien has publicly stated that he’s staying put. Part of what makes him such an attractive candidate is that he’s handled himself with great integrity through a very trying year at PSU. If he’s willing to leave…do you want him as much? This is reminiscent of the old Groucho Marx saying that “I would never join a country club that would have someone like me as a member”.
By staying, O’Brien makes you want him more. By being open to leaving, is O’Brien just another coach fighting for the next dollar and the next move up the coaching ladder?
Adam Caplan reported that he’s heard several teams want to meet with O’Brien. No one still knows anything from O’Brien’s point of view. Will he interview? Is he open to leaving?
And of course there is the reported buyout of $9.2M that some team would have to pay just to hire O’Brien away. Crazy situation.
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David Syvertsen has your list of NFL prospects to watch in tonight’s Fiesta Bowl…Oregon vs Kansas State.
You may also want to pay attention to the Oregon coach. I hear he’s thinking about taking an NFL job or something like that.
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i thought you said it was bill O’Brien that didnt like howie?
You’re absolutely right. I fixed the piece. The Belichick/Howie angle still is worth watching because Kelly is semi-friendly with Belichick. Thanks for the heads up, though. Easy to get confused.
I think Howie’s a plus in terms of the Chip Kelly sales pitch.
To your point, Tommy, he can sit there in the interview and explain exactly how he can go get the players that Kelly wants (he’s orchestrated a number of trades and high-stakes free agent signings… many of which haven’t worked out, but that’s another story). He can also introduce the scouts, show off the war-room, etc.
The Browns still have to hire someone to do it – which is a whole other level of complexity to their off-season. They will also have to explain why they fired Heckert (in one way or another). One “sneaky Banner” move would be to have Bill Polian flash-mob the interview…
True, Banner is an ass. Howie has friendlier negotiation skills it would seem if you go on reputation anyway.
Bill Polian flash mob? Easily the best line of the day.
Just to reply to my own post (that’s not tacky, right?)…
It occurs to me the elephant in the room (so to speak) is Banner. Chip Kelly sits down with Haslam, Banner and has to discern what each of their roles are, PLUS the un-hired GM.
With the Eagles, Chip Kelly sits down with Lurie (a very hands-off owner), Roseman (a GM with a track record), and Smolenski (the business operations side of the Eagles). There’s no mystery GM to deal with, and no mystery to what the Eagles president does. Banner – in many ways – is like an additional GM, so Kelly would have to figure out what powers Banner actually has, what powers whoever is hired as GM has, and what powers he himself would have in that paradigm. The Eagles – by comparison and as advertised by Lurie himself – are more streamlined… by exactly one less Banner.
Nice updates…Banner scares the hell out of me. I’ve finally come around to accepting Kelly as the most exciting candidate with tremendous potential, and along comes Banner….DAMMIT! I swear he has it out for us. AR in KC, that’d be weird huh? No QB with a feature RB. Zona needs a guy like Reid. He deeply believes that winning the trenches wins ball games. His drafting has reflected that philosophy over the years. He brought on the most reputable line coaches in the league and gave them each a first round pick. Unfortunately something went very wrond in year 2 with Wash and Mudd’s unit was ravaged by injuries. We didnt win the trenches in any phase, 4-11 follows naturally. Let Reid work with Kolb, and bring in that Line-first mentality.
A couple of notes:
I do think the Kelly will evaluate the tape as cogs within the system; Vick within the system, DJax within the Reid system, so forth and on. Broadly speaking, I think much of 2011 and 2012 will be viewed very much as a failure of coach and scheme, and I think Kelly will be asking himself more about “what can I do with *these* players? Better than Reidwise?” I do not think that Kelly will be very interested in falling in love with any players or hating them.
Broadly speaking–I think Maclin is in the most trouble, careerwise. Simply doesn’t do some of the things he really needs to be able(and wants) to do. Strong whiff of “thinks he’s more talented and indispensable than he is.” I think DJax is fine, he’s a more fundamentally sound receiver than people give him credit for, and is more comparable to Steve Smith (the good one) than Steve Wallace, say.
You know I disagree with you on Vick, but I think your statement about sacks is untenable. If anything, that’s going to be bigger issue for Foles, if it is for either QB. The deep metrics, for what they are worth, suggested that the line was a strong candidate for the worst in the league. As for the classic “runs into sacks” line, just watch Ponder enough times. Vick ain’t Romo in the pocket, but he’s not horrible–his actions are a result of the usual height issues. Brees and Wilson effectively do the same thing, with Brees being most willing to climb the pocket, since he’s not a running option as well. Last issue is Reid’s scheme that has everyone guessing that sooner or later, one of those long developing plays will give up a drive-killing sack with defensive-integrity-compromising delayed or hidden blitzes.
One quick thing with Foles. Yeah, he’s slow on his feet and that’s going to be a problem in most schemes, but what’s going to kill him in Kelly’s eyes is that he’s a slow decision maker, with a longer windup to boot. Snap, snap, snap is the way Kelly wants to travel. Those quick passes aren’t going to be those jumpable one-read slants, screens or outs. Foles will have at least a bunch of two or more read quick passes to do in that scheme.
I don’t know if you mean to do this, but often it comes across as if you are directly comparing Vick and Foles. If so, can’t do that. Vick is a 10-year vet. He’s been with the Eagles for 4 years. Foles is a rookie. You have to judge them accordingly.
Also…Vick has never been an efficient passer. Why would we think that’s going to change while playing for a new coach in a new system? Vick is an athletic guy who has improved as a passer, but even in the most friendly system…he is still going to have some old habits. This isn’t the same thing as teaching Tiki Barber to hold the ball higher. That’s purely physical. Vick’s QB issues are physical, mental, and emotional.
I do agree on your point about the players being judged as individuals and not part of a system, but you can’t just assume that in a new system all the bad stuff goes away. It would be great if it did, but all too often those habits don’t go away.
Yeah, I don’t do that.
Talent is talent is talent, and the rookie has to play his way onto the field. Generally when they don’t have to (and when they don’t seem to have great talent) it usually doesn’t work out. Not only does it not work out, you get nasty clashes between fans who like runts, and the more realistic ones. As such, when I read “Vick’s QB issues are physical, mental, and emotional”, I simply disregard it as exaggeration. Is he suffering from an arm limitation? You know, like Fitzpatrick or something? No? Is he less than mobile? No? On and down the list. He’s short and he has small hands. You can’t teach height, and you can’t teach bigger hands. However, you can’t teach what he does have. Mental? Like Romo’s brainfarts at the worst times–worse than Vick? And you know, Gabbert is the best example of emotionally inadequate, along with Alex Smith or JaMarcus Russell.
Foles is a rookie, but more importantly, he is a rookie with little upside, and you cannot have missed how marginal his physical skills are to where they need to be. With his slow self, no matter how well he moves in the pocket, he’s going to be taking huge number of unnecessary sacks, for example. And that’s just a start. Foles can start over McElroy, but he will not start over a legit QB, which does include Vick. I don’t think he’ll start over any of the late first top second round picks this year, either. EJ Manuel coming? I don’t think Foles can beat him out unless Manuel is *really* inaccurate.
so Howie could be a detriment to the hiring of o’brien AND kelly? can someone explain why he’s still here?
Both guys are tied to Belichick. The rumor is that Belichick doesn’t like him. I have my doubts on the validity of the rumor. We’ll see.
i think that i’d rather have mike mccoy anyway but if Howie is a potential sticking point for some coaches, then it would be a dissappointment
I also doubt that rumor
Les Bowen just rted an article by a Browns beat writer saying that the Browns will make Kelly “an offer he can’t refuse” if everything goes well. I hope the Eagles at least get a chance to talk to him before Kelly makes any kind of a decision. Hopefully Casey Matthews is right and that Kelly wants to be on the East Coast and that he comes to Philly.
I wonder what the new coaching change will mean for Graham’s future. I feel like he’s one of those guys that is a pure 4-3 DE. He has shown promise this year, but not enough that you wouldn’t change the defense for him. If the team goes to a 3-4, I can see him spending the rest of his Eagles career on the bench. If he gets traded, the Eagles will get no where near his potential value.
What makes the Giants DL coach/scouting so special? I can’t think of any DE that they’ve drafted in the past 5 years that hasn’t worked out.
Maybe Roseman wanted JPP. But AR likes those smaller, quicker DEs?
Anyway . . . after the season, Graham talked about playing as a stand-up rush LB/DE. He seemed to suggest that he played upright at UM.
T-Law . . . is that right? Did Graham play much stand-up rush DE/LB in college?
JPP was every online scout’s whipping boy in the draft. A physically gifted player who had success in college because he used speed rushes against inferior talent.
How about “armchair” GMs or stat-geeks. I recall reading too many online posts citing “SackSEER” as the definitive scouting tool for the DEs. What a joke, similar to “math” wizards at the big banks whose models couldn’t identify credit risks
The question with JPP was simply lack of experience.
He had only played one season at South Florida before the draft. Had 47 tackles, 6.5 sacks, 10 stuffs, which is good but not great production. Nor did he have a tremendous workout.
He was a projection pick, with a lot of upside but a lot of downside.
I had Graham 1st, Morgan 2nd, JPP 3rd.
I knew Graham would be a pass rusher, Morgan would be your typical LDE (hold the edge, give you decent but not great pass rush), JPP was a total shot in the dark. I though Graham at TE was a better gamble and can’t believe Howie passed him to take Harbor later, though again, Graham was really raw, so AR may not have wanted him, but Harbor was small college.
Graham ended up with 38 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 3 stuffs in about half the defensive snaps that Trent Cole or JPP got this season.
I read an article after the 2010 draft and it quoted Reid stating that HR brought Graham to his attention, that and the fact that the Eagles place(d) high value on Senior Bowl attendees.
Your comment seems to run smack into the “revisionist history” exercise that some in the media are seeing at the Nova Care Complex.
Re: Banner v. Howie — Better Negotiator?
Ark87 mentioned that, by reputation among players’ agents, HR is easier to negotiate with than Banner was — so maybe that’s an advantage for the Eagles. (In hindsight, were all the extensions HR negotiated so pleasantly with the players’ agents after 2011 the right thing to do?)
In the context of a coaching search, though, I think Banner’s point of reference for all his *hard balling* is not the coach’s agent. It’s the competition.
Banner, if desperate, will — as T-Law alluded — do whatever it takes to get his guy.
Banner got the Nova Care complex for Lurie.
He got the Linc for Lurie.
He got Kearse for Lurie.
He got TO for Lurie — and in a pretty tough fight with the Ravens, too.
Banner’s negotiated at some very lofty levels in his time in green. HR’s not in that class yet.
If needed, I’d guess that Banner — and especially Haslam — have plenty of charm and lots of very polished negotiating skills to use. More than HR and JL.
Hence, Banner — reportedly — lined up the first interview with Kelly. I continue to think he and Haslem won’t let him out of the room until he signs a contract, unless Kelly tells them to pound sand.
Great points. If Banner has the financial backing (Haslam) and the will (a promising candidate in Kelly/possible vendetta against philly) there is little doubt he could Pony up the charm and cash to not “let him out of the room” as they say.
Wouldn’t even surprise me if Banner wasn’t THAT interested in Chip, and just wants to drive up Chip’s price to make us grossly over-pay.
I haven’t thought of Banner potentially just driving up the price for Chip. Good point.
While he may drive the price up, that doesn’t really hurt us much in the long run. There’s no salary cap, so forcing us to pay more for a coach has no competitive advantage. Does it hurt Lurie? Sure, but that’s nothing that would ever impact the team. And despite Haslam’s deep pockets, the Eagles are a more valuable franchise in a (much) larger market and can afford the hit.
Sort of depends. Lurie isn’t made out of money. http://www.forbes.com/pictures/eddf45hmlk/jeffrey-lurie-2/
He isn’t one of the big boys when it comes to throwing money around. Most of Lurie’s wealth was accumulated through this franchise. This isn’t a rich boy’s hobby, this is a living. He must draw lines on a budget even if it is not a cap. Blowing the bank on the HC could hinder our ability to compete to hire an experienced coaching staff (most importantly a DC) to advise Chip in his transition to the NFL.
That said, I doubt Banner will do all of this. Chances are Roseman won’t get in a ludicrous bidding war and actually end up leaving Banner with the bill. Overpaying a rookie coach that doesn’t work out (and lets face it no body does in Cleveland) is a great way to get fired. I doubt that this will come down to a bidding war between the Browns and the Eagles. If it does, it would almost certainly be earnest pursuit by both parties.
“O’Brien has publicly stated that he’s staying put.”
Not exactly. Whenever someone asks him about leaving he either answers in the present tense (“I am the PSU coach and that’s what I’m focused on”) or he throws in the word “plan” (“I plan on being the PSU coach next season”). As far as I know, there isn’t a quote where he just flat out states “I will be here next year.”
Do you think Geno Smith would be of interest of CK?
I really do hope the Browns sign Kelly – that way the Eagles can’t! The thought of a college coach with ZERO NFL experience is kind of scarey. And the thought of another coach with a sack full of gimmicky plays and yet one more “mobile” QB is almost enough to drive me to drink (fortunately there are plenty of taxi drivers that will drive me to – and from – the bar!)! I like what O’Brien has done this year with Penn State and he has the NFL experience (under the master cheater!) to go along with it. But, at the end of the day, I just want somebody hired so we can get an idea of the new staff he’s bringing in and see the rest of the coaching staff (except for Duce!) pack up and get out! I also can’t wait to see an inkling of the new “philosophy” the head coach will bring in. It’s just odd to be excited about the off-season!
If you haven’t read Tommy’s previous article on Chip yet, you really should. It may not completely change your mind about him, but it should at least ease some of your fears about Chip’s coaching style and offense. One thing that has become clear about him is that he works his offense around the players he has in place. So, you shouldn’t expect him to run his Oregon offense as it currently is if he doesn’t make the leap to the NFL. Everything from recent interviews and stories about him seem to show that he definitely is not a “scheme” type of coach.
While hiring a coach without NFL experience may not be ideal, the most important thing will be to hire one that has the ability to be a great leader and will surround himself with quality coordinators and assistants.
“[S]urround himself with quality coordinators and assistants” but that’s the rub with Kelly having no NFL experience. Does he have the contacts/knowledge to identify the good assistants and coordinators
He already seems to have contacts in the NFL. Him choosing the right assistants, however, remains to be seen. Guys that have been coaching at these ranks for years don’t always make great personnel decision either. We would have to just wait and see if we ever get to this point. I think that the main key here is that, despite who the organization chooses, that person is going to be a big question mark as to his ability to lead this team to the top again, regardless of his NFL experience.
Good points, but don’t over value Kelly meeting with or doing seminars for NFL coaches as developing a knowledge base. I think that experience comes from coaches going against each other or watching film of another team an seeing what’s being done. I recall Reid saying he liked JJ because JJ was DC with the Colts when Green Bay played them and the Colts D stymied the Packers.
I think something to consider is that not only are most of us fans excited to see what Chip Kelly can do in the NFL, but I can imagine that a lot of coaches are excited to see what he does in the NFL. And I’m sure some of them would be more than happy to be a part of whatever Kelly brings to the NFL.
Another to consider is Harbaugh brought in several college coaches to run his NFL team, and it worked out quite nicely.
Take a look at the resumes of Harbaugh’s staff and you’ll notice that most (especially the primary assistants like OC & DC) had significant NFL experience prior to Stanford
I remember fans were so excited about Spurrier. I think in general they gushed over Spurrier even more than the people who gush over Kelly. That said Kelly is INTERESTING although maybe not THE guy for the Eagles.
After watching last nights game I am not sure my heart would make it through a season with C Kelly as the coach. Time of possession is not something he cares about until the end of the 4th quarter (when he finally slowed the game down to run the clock out).
The three and outs and the sub 60 second scoring drives were just mind racking. I could not imagine being a Defensive player in his system as you would be on the field for most of the game…
I remember back when the Eagles turned pass happy under Reid and we would three and out leaving JJ’s boys on the field for series after series with no break…
I am not sure it works in the NFL…. Maybe it does but the Defense had better be ready to be on the field a lot.
I think we are better off with Mike McCoy and a more conventional offense.
From the outside looking in, I don’t view Kelly as the guy they have to get. He’s not a terrific fit (he’s arguably not even a good fit) for Foles but people who can’t commit to Nick naturally don’t even care about that. Of course I agree Roseman could not be committed to Foles but I am in the minority.
That’s why I think O’Brien, McCoy and maybe even Arians should be part of the conversation, not just we have to beat out Browns for Chip Kelly.
Don’t over think this process. I’m sure the Eagles have done their homework on all the candidates, they have an idea of the market cost (and can afford to pay), and the interview process is a lot like dating, you have to be careful not to fall in love, rather, determine if there is mutual compatibility.
What you don’t want is to compete for a coach, if he isn’t convinced that you’re the right fit (as long as you’re competitive on finances), you aren’t and therefore there’s no point over pursuing that candidate. So it’s not a question, or shouldn’t be a question of “beating out” Joe, it should simply come down to whether you’re on the same page with Chip or anyone else – and if he’s more comfortable with Lurie et al than Haslam et al then he’ll come to Philly.
Great point!
There’s a lot to chew on in what you say.
For example, no one, no matter who he is, can know what Cleveland’s going to be like with a new owner like Haslam. A Jerry Jones? Or a Bob Kraft? Impossible to know.
Conversely, a coach knows what to expect — at least from the outside looking in — from Lurie. But can anyone really know about Roseman — he’s been a ladder climber in Philadelphia (not intended pejoratively).
Comfort at a gut level may only go so far.
Comfort intellectually, in terms of promised management styles, also goes only so far. Kelly at least knows from the Browns side that who runs the personnel side remains an open question.
And Kelly — presumably — has also done his homework. Who wouldn’t love to know what he’s heard from his friends in Boston.
The one common denominator between the Birds and Cleveland is Banner.
I assume Banner’s pitch is the Eagles were winners when he was there as CEO. (That’d be his selling point.) Since Lurie’s been CEO, not so much, and Roseman the personnel chief, not so much either (though small sample set).
As an aside, the Kelly situation has quickly evolved in the kind of “Horse Race” media coverage we get during presidential elections.
Which means the what we read from the media will generally be worthless.
Maybe I’m a homer, but I can’t imagine that any coach would look at the Browns and the Eagles’ organizations and pick the Browns. At least if the coach is a winner. The Cleveland job would probably be easier, with lower expectations. Come to Philly and you better do at least as good as Reid did or you are going to be considered a failure.
If you talk to a Browns fan they’d probably say the same thing.
No doubt they’ve got a great fanbase but most are realistic about the state of their team.
If Reid’s got a choice, I’d pick San Diego in a heartbeat. You get Phillip Rivers and that weather. You might have the extra stress of a potential franchise move to LA, I guess, but out of all the options SD seems the less stressful.
He may not have a choice, I heard SD wasn’t interested in him…. but yes, SD is a wonderful place to live if you can afford it.
Hey, if a guy who’s never been more than a quarterbacks coach can hire Jim Johnson, anything is possible. As much as we want a great defense, a great defensive mind should not be our first criteria when picking a coach. Any one of the guys in contention right now can have a great or a poor defensive coordinator. Nothing about any of them suggests one way or the other.
No one wants to see Reid at the beach.
OT: I’m just watching the sugar bowl. Could Teddy Bridgewater be of potential interest for the Eagles in 2013?!
Absolutely.
If Reid coaches KC, does that help or hurt our chances of trading for Dwayne Bowe, or Eric Berry? (Bowe might be a FA)
Would Reid screw us by taking Luke Jockel with the #1 pick? I bet Reid isn’t interested in taking a QB this year with that pick.
I bet it would open the door for us to trade some Vets with KC.
As far as potential coaches, why isn’t Brian Billick in the mix? He built one of the best defenses of all time with Ed Reed and Ray Lewis in Baltimore.
Given the way Reid has worked with people like Heckert, I would say it helps our chances. But then again, if I’m Bowe, I’m thinking twice about leaving KC.
I sincerely doubt that whatever Reid does with his pick will be intended to do anything other than help his new team.
As for Billick, he did not build that defense. He was an offensive coach. Former OC at Minnesota when they broke all kinds of records with Cunningham, Moss, etc. That defense was Marvin Lewis’s defense, as built by Ozzie Newsome and company. Billick had little to do with it. If you’re looking for a defensive savior, you’re completely looking in the wrong place.
Ah thanks, that’s a shame. We really need a great DC, hope whoever is the next Coach can figure that one out.
When it comes to free agents, I’d target Loadholt, btw, especially if we think we can get a difference maker on the DL in the draft.
I’d prefer to draft Joeckel and see what the young guys can do when given more PT on the defensive line. Loadholt is purely a RT whereas Joeckel has the potential to move to LT and replace Peters (which will need to be done in the next few years even if he does come back from the Achilles problem).
Totally in agreement with you. We have some Dlineman at each spot who are capable of starting. If Peters doesn’t come back we don’t have anyone capable of starting at LT. There probably isn’t anyone decent enough to pick up in FA for LT either.
Biggest problem will be if AR sees Joeckel as the best draft choice and takes him #1. It would not surprise me one bit.
If that’s the case then we should pick up one of the Defensive play makers and hope for the best in 2nd or 3rd round, but I’ve heard there are not many great LT prospects in this draft.
Kelly might be the choice but it’s not that clearcut to me. Maybe Kelly is the top choice for the Browns and the Eagles but I don’t know that is true. He’s not the only candidate anyway. Is he really this slam dunk the media is portraying in the Browns vs Eagles coaching searches? I don’t think there is a slam dunk. It’s not like Kelly is a known thing in the pros. Personally, I think O’Brien is the guy for me if I had to say there was one but he’s not totally known either.
Has anyone asked how much good will there may be out there for Banner? There may be a trail of tears, but I don’t see anybody that truly knows him to be salivating at the thought of answering to him.
Re: Reid – Heckert rumors / the Roseman factor
T-Law:
The media is reporting that Reid is asking (but not insisting, per some reports) that Hecker’s his guy on the GM side. [LaMonte’s a busy guy.]
Here’s what I don’t understand.
Back in ’09, the Eagles let Heckert leave so Roseman could take his spot.
Roseman, by all accounts, was a Banner guy.
So was it Banner who pushed Heckert out and Roseman up? Did Reid lose a power struggle with Banner?
If so, that seems odd because a bit more than two years later, Banner’s out and Roseman gets more authority. (And Lurie becomes more active after his marriage dissolves.)
Did Banner lose a power struggle with Reid?
Now, Lurie’s putting out the word that Roseman’s not been responsible for the bad drafts in ’10 and ’11.
But Roseman had Banner’s ear — at least in ’10 and probably ’11.
So if Banner’s to blame in part (as some seem to think Lurie’s suggesting), along with Reid, exactly who was whispering in Banner’s ear? Seems like Roseman would have been the guy — not Reid and the coaches.
Maybe you could delve a bit more into some of this.
Also, from the outside looking in, the Eagles have not been a particularly stable for the past 3 years. Almost to the point of asking, what the hell’s goin’ on out there?
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Austinfan . . . your thoughts are invited, too.
The real story hasn’t come out, but Lurie knows it.
I don’t think Banner had that much influence on personnel decisions, a least the draft side, though he had big input on the money/value equation concerning free agents. Banner just wouldn’t have a lot of information on draft picks, but he’d work with the NFL personnel guys on free agent evaluation.
Andy was reportedly angling for more control over personnel, he obviously had a lot of input into draft picks, especially in the early rounds, so I would suspect he wanted more say over free agents. However, when Washburn and Mudd came in, they seemed to influence a lot of choices for good and bad (Babin, cutting Teo, but then again, was Sean the primary reason they traded Gocong and Sheldon? – for Mudd, signing Mathis, drafting Watkings, Kelce, Vandervelde). Banner engineered the cap room for the 2011 FA spree, but who decided which players to buy?
I doubt Howie had a lot of authority in 2010, he was replacing Heckert who’d lost his battle for influence, he was seen as Banner’s protege, and his opinion was probably discounted in the war room. However, from Lurie’s words, his opinion on the draft board was noted by the one guy who counted.
I think the draft battles may have come down to the draft board each year, you have to rank players, and if Andy and his position coaches had too much influence, they may have over riden scouting opinions – and especially with regard to BPA v who can contribute quickly.
It’s obvious that things changed in 2012, no free agent signings except Bell and that was basically desperation, a lot of draft picks were more long-term potential and didn’t exactly fit Mudd/Washburn (Curry, Kelly, Washington), and some fliers (Foles, Brown) who weren’t expected to dress in 2012. Picking up Menkin was another long-term move. The only “need” move was trading for Ryans, and that was good value. Cox was immediate help but more about his long-term potential.
You know the more I think on it, the more I like Mike Mccoy or Mike Zimmer over Chip Kelly. I can’t put my finger on it, but I just feel like Kelly is going to want to be involved in this new wave of mobile quarterbacks in the NFL, and I’d rather not have a round peg square hole situation so far as personel goes.
I would love to see what Kelly could do with this offense. I think DJax could be one of the best players in this league if we could find interesting ways to get him the ball. I don’t see why you are so down on Vick playing for Kelly. If Foles can be the place holder until Kelly finds his guy a year or two from now, why not keep Vick? I don’t think Vick is the long term answer, but he is a better QB than Foles currently.
I think it’s debatable whether Vick is better than Foles at the moment. Foles had a higher QB rating, better completion percentage, and lower interception percentage despite playing with inferior players for most of his time as the starter. Vick was slightly better on other metrics (TD%, YPA, etc.) but it’s not clear that he’s a lot better than Foles as a passer right now. And given his declining running ability and propensity for injuries and fumbles when he does run with the ball, I’m not sure his mobility makes up for it. Add in the Foles is 23 and may have significant capacity for improvement whereas Vick is what he is at this point and I think it’s pretty clearly a no-brainer that Foles is the way to go next year even if you’re not confident he’s a long term solution (and I think such skepticism is perfectly reasonable).
The YPA play a huge factor. It’s much easier to have a higher completion percentage when you are not throwing the ball down field. Add to the fact Foles played the Bucs, Panthers, and Redskins twice. All three of these teams were bad on defense, especially in the secondary. People make the mistake of looking at only the numbers, instead of what the QB is asked to do and the competition he faces. I believe in the eye test, and my eye test tells me Vick is the better of the two right now. He has a much better arm than Foles, and fans keep making the mistake that just because Vick is slower, does not mean he is slow. Once again I do not think Vick is the long term solution. I think he is a better QB now and therefore gives us the best shot to win in 2013.
Vick’s YPA was 6.7. Foles’ was 6.4. That’s hardly a huge discrepancy, particularly when we factor in the fact that Vick played most of his games with Jackson, the best home run threat on the team, and Foles didn’t play with him at all.
As for the defenses, it’s true Foles played against some bad ones, but he also played against a couple of good ones (Cincy and Carolina). And Vick played against his fair share of crappy pass defenses (NO, Atlanta, Cleveland, Detroit, etc.) and didn’t exactly light them up – again playing with better skill talent behind a healthier O line.
The “eye test” tells me Foles needs to develop a better deep ball and feel for defenses if he wants to be a long term starter. But it also tells me Vick is a poor decision maker with spotty accuracy who has trouble throwing over the top of the pocket and for all his mobility lacks a feel for pressure or where to move around in the pocket. He’s not good enough, and given his age there is no reason to waste any more time starting him IMO.
I think Foles not having DJax hid how truly inept his deep ball capabilities are. Also, Cleveland and Atlanta are much better defenses than the Skins and Bucs. Remember Vick would have lit up Detroit had receivers not dropped TD passes.
Foles deficiencies extend beyond the deep ball. Initially he seemed to make quick decision and get rid of the ball quickly. However, I have stated numerous times that I believed he was choosing his WRs prior to exiting the huddle. Since then he has tried going through his progressions and been increasingly hesitant.
Cleveland was a bottom ten defense in both passing yardage allowed and DVOA vs. the pass. Atlanta was bottom 10 in yardage allowed and middle of the pack in DVOA. New Orleans, against whom Vick also struggled, had a historically bad pass defense – dead last in the NFL in both yardage allowed and DVOA vs. the pass.
I’m not saying Foles is the future at QB. I think that’s yet to be determined, and I think the front office would be wise not to put all their eggs in that basket. What I am saying is that Vick, since he’s a mediocre quarterback right now and at age 33 is only going to go downhill physically, is definitely not the future, especially for what’s going to be a young, rebuilding team.
I have to think the Eagles offer a more attractive situation than the Browns. As Lurie said, they have a winning tradition of late, whereas with only a few blips the Browns have been a league punching bag since they came back in 1999 despite repeated changes in ownership, management, coaching, and personnel. Moreover Lurie has proven that A.)he’s patient and willing to give a coach time to build, B.)he handles things with class and professionalism and is good to work for, C.)he’s not a meddler, and D.)he’s willing to spend money on scouting, free agents, etc. Haslam is a complete unknown on all those fronts.
That said, I like Kelly a lot but if to get him Banner is willing to fork over a ridiculous contract, and/or complete control of the player personnel side of the team, I say let him have him. No coach should have unchallenged power in an organization (even the Patriots have seen their drafts suffer since Belichick took charge of them). And there are other good candidates out there.
I had similar thoughts on the organizations. The way I could see that working in their favor is if Haslan and Banner are able to frame it as a chance to be part of something special. The coach that is able to turn the Browns into a winning organization will have a bronze statue erected in his image. If they are able to get Chip to buy in that the ownership and management pieces are in place, they might be able to convince him that he is the final piece to create something special. That is how I would present it, anyway.
The counter argument, of course, is that the Eagles have a track record that we can actually deliver those things and Chip won’t find himself as the next in a long line of failed men who have tried to resurrect that franchise. I am sure the prospect of finding oneself powerless to implement ones vision and seeing ones reputation tarnished is frightening. We need to make sure that image is what he sees in Cleveland.
That, combined with subtle hints that Joe has a history of doing unsavory things with woodland animals should seal the deal.
This is to all:
I think everyone is watching the Fiesta Bowl getting a look at Kelly and the Oregon “Experience.” I would love to hear thoughts on Kelly, the Oregon offense, the game, etc.
The KR to open the game was an exciting play and no better way to start the game (the fan shots on TV of the K State crowd was priceless). However, I was very bothered by Kelly going for 2 and this reminded me that he does things like that frequently. I don’t think he would be so aggressive in the NFL, but it makes me wonder about his judgment. Some might like that, but I don’t.
It was mentioned in an earlier post that potential coaching staff might be attracted to work with Kelly b/c he’s an innovator. This may be true, but I believe it is equally possible that plenty of NFL types would be motivated to go against Kelly, if he were ever to take an NFL job, to “show him up” and prove that he is best suited to the college game.
i don’t really have a problem with a coach who is willing to take risk
The reason Oregon’s playing tonight and not Monday night is because he went for it on 4th and 1 from Stanford’s 7 in the 1st qtr instead of kicking the FG. Sometimes you have to go by the book. Madden used to say that the first points are the hardest. The risk taking can be exciting, but also your undoing. Just ask Sam Rutigliano.
Don’t agree. Football is a game of calculated risks, and if the payoff from a touchdown outweighs the risks of not getting any points, I want my coach to go for it every time. There is no guarantee whatsoever that Kelly electing to kick a field goal in that situation would have changed the outcome of the game.
Me neither. Belichick takes risks like that all the time, and I think people who have analyzed such things have demonstrated that it is usually the higher percentage play to do so.
Looking forward to a write up on the 1-pt Safety…
That’s it. I want Kelly just so I can see and learn new things. Who else here has seen the 1 pt safety?