More Vick Talk
Posted: August 21st, 2013 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 141 Comments »The previous thread had more than 100 comments. It can get tough to carry on conversations at that point, so I decided to post a short thread with a couple of misc thoughts and some links.
In regard to the ongoing Vick discussion. I previously wrote that Vick isn’t a great QB. That doesn’t mean he hasn’t done some special things. Vick was the first visiting QB to win a playoff game at Lambeau Field (2002). He carried the 2004 Falcons to the NFC title game. He is the only QB to rush for 1,000 yards in a season.
The problem with trying to quantify Vick is that for so much of his career he didn’t fit the standard QB mold. In his 5 years as the full time starter in Atlanta, Vick never threw for 3,000 yards. He only attempted more than 400 passes once. In a full season with the Eagles, Donovan McNabb never attempted fewer than 443 passes. You cannot look at just TD passes, QB rating and completion percentage to figure those guys out. They were playing 2 very different versions of football.
It isn’t accurate to label Vick as just a mediocre QB any more than it is accurate to say he’s great. Vick is highly talented, but highly erratic. In Atlanta, they weren’t able to develop him as a passer, partly due to coaching, but also due to Vick’s failure to embrace football the way he should have. By his own words, he was the last in the building and the first out. That changed when he came to Philly and he’s grown quite a bit as a passer.
The problem is that Reid took things to the other extreme. He had Vick throwing too much. Vick simply isn’t meant to drop back 35 to 40 times a game.
We’re trying to take what we know of Vick based on 2001-2012 and project how he’ll do in 2013. Don’t do that.
If the Eagles had hired some other NFL coach, I’d say you’re right to focus on Vick’s past. I don’t care if the offense switched to even a run-heavy attack. Vick with another NFL coach would have likely been Vick.
Instead, Chip Kelly came to town. Chip is bringing a new offense and style of play to the NFL. We’ve never seen Vick in this offense or anything close to it. Think about the changes Vick had to deal with. He had the fly swatter devices at practice. He had to give up the long ball and focus on quick screens. Vick had to compete for the starting job for the first time since college. Kelly messed with his head in a lot of different ways. And Vick responded the right way.
Old Vick might show up in the fall, but the guy we’re seeing now is a Vick I’m not familiar with.
Some of you got into a debate on 2010 vs 2011. Let’s get one thing straight. The O-line was a mess in 2010. Mike McGlynn wasn’t good at C. Nick Cole was awful at RG. Winston Justice was erratic at RT. Even Jason Peters was a notch below where he is now. Vick played really well despite the fact he had a porous OL. In 2011 Howard Mudd came to town. He turned Jason Peters into the best LT in the league. Mudd got Evan Mathis off the street and turned him into a stud. Rookie Jason Kelce had a good year. Todd Herremans moved to RT and thrived. Danny Watkins at RG was the only erratic player up front. That OL was dominant at times.
The other debate about when “defenses figured Vick out” is tricky. The Giants blitzed DBs a ton in the Miracle at the Meadowlands and it worked great for 3 1/2 quarters. Vick unleashed some voodoo on them in the final 8 minutes. The next week the Vikings blitzed Antoine Winfield over and over and Vick had a bad game. Teams continued to blitz Vick in 2011. The results were up and down. You might remember Quintin Mikell strip-sacking Vick in the season opener. The Bills had success with blitzers. Dallas had no luck with blitzers. You can’t say defenses figured Vick out, but you also can’t say Vick figured out blitzers.
Enough of my yapping.
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Jimmy Bama did a hilarious post on Vick winning the QB competition. You’ll like this. Jason Kelce as a Wookie is priceless.
Sheil Kapadia offered up some thoughts on Vick being named the starter.
Tim McManus, All-American pretzel eater, wrote about how Vick thinks being pushed really helped him. I do think Kelly getting Vick out of his comfort zone was important.
Jeff McLane offers his thoughts on the situation.
Les Bowen wrote a fascinating piece on the fact that Vick has been a rejuvenated QB before. Caveat emptor.
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I promise we’ll get to other players on Wednesday.
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Tommy, I am glad you brought up Chip to this discussion. This is Chip’s decision and Vick earned it. Let’s see how it plays out.
I just started reading this link material posted by someone in your network… I believe it is a chapter in Chip’s book… very interesting…
http://fishduck.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Chip-complete.pdf
It was a transcript of a lecture he gave.
I hope either our tempo, play-calling, or formations make it harder for defenses to blitz, and easier for Vick to play.
Yep, that’s definitely a hope I share.
I would stake my fortune of Walmart store credit on it. Did you see that
double stack formation against New England? I would be shocked if any self
respecting defensive coordinator called a corner blitz against that.
yes and yes and yes, on all three accounts.
People seem to get misled by Vick’s age being too much worried about our long term future. Vick is 33, Brady is 36, Manning is 37. Does anyone think that either of the latter QBs will retire anytime soon?
Maybe Vick plays great this season and has 3 or 4 good years left in his tank. Then we can still worry about the big picture, however not before 2016/2017.
It’s a fair point, though I might argue that Vick has taken a bigger pounding over time, and that might become an issue for him.
Yes, I am aware of this. However there is hoping that the pounding on Vick will become less in Chip Kelly’s fas run (-based) offense.
If VIck can somehow limit brutal hits, there’s a pretty good chance he will be a QB in this league for years to come.
I do find these comments pretty inane. Vick has been a bottom 10 QB the past 2 seasons, and msses games every year. Comparing him to brady, manning and even romo and younger manning is laughable.
I see that your reading comprehension is not one of your strengths.
A) I was mainly comparing Vick’s age with other QBs in the NFL while B) I didn’t say that Vick is the second coming of Brady nor Manning, performance wise.
However it is not far-fetched at all claiming that Vick will have a few more (good) years ahead of him IF (and that’s a big “IF”) he takes care of his body by not exposing it to unnecessary hits.
Comparing vick’s age, and using only age, as an argument he can play for 3-4 more years
is so silly though, there are so many factors at stake. Chiefly, injury history and success, and that’s why it’s inane to mention other QBs.
It is against all evidence that Vick will NOT get injured, and NOT turn it over at a prodigious rate. Of course, he and Kelly get benefit of doubt for now. So it is pretty far fetched he can play for 3-4 more years, albeit still possible.
Everyone’s entitled to an opinion, though it might be wrong.
Absurd comment. You are talking about two HOF QBs who have made it their business to avoid hits and play smart. Neither puts their individual heroics above the team. The stuff Vick subjects his body to in one season surpasses what those two have faced their whole career thus far. The kicker is that you seem to think that Kelly’s offense will protect Vick more and thus extend his career….I guess you haven’t really watched the preseason. If anything, it is the opposite from where I sit. Vick has already taken a few huge hits and been slow to rise from them.
I completely agree that Vick won the QB battle with Foles. But lets not put the blinders on. The guy is a deeply flawed player who still has not learned how to be an NFL QB and protect himself for the team. I will make a few guarantees:
1) Vick will struggle deciding when to pitch or keep on the read option.
2) When he keeps it, players will BLAST him when he does not slide, but instead he dives.
3) Even if he pitches it, Vick is technically a “runner” at that point and defense will still BLAST him.
4) Vick will fumble frequently while attempting to perform these heroics.
5) Vick will be injured during these displays of his moronic unnecessary heroics.
6) Guys like you will be on here saying how it wasn’t Vick’s fault, it was Kelly’s schemes that are faulty and that if the coach would use Vick properly, he wouldn’t be hurt or tunr the ball over.
7) The whole cycle will start again.
Sigh……
I’d love to agree with you. However we both would be wrong then.
Yes sir. Please do not allow Vick’s body of work, which is only, what, 10 years, to influence your perception of reality. Look the other way, nothing to see there. The best prediction of future performance is definitely NOT past performance.
Give the guy his irrational preseason optimism for now. It will be gone by week 5.
Cerebral players get to play late in their career. QBs who’s FBI is a dangerous weapon get tomplayinti their late 30s
QBs who’s performance has declined for consecutive years usually don’t get to play late in to their 30’s.
Nothing usual about Vick. Will there ever be a talent that gets as many chances has he has gotten? 3 Coaches have looked at his talent, gushed over it, and that they would be the one to change him and be able to harness all his ability…Those 3 coaches crashed and burned believing in Vick…
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it’s kind of like that really hot Chick, but who is trashy and sleeps around. Every guy gets enchanted by her beauty and thinks they will be the one to change her….yet they get chewed up and spit out just like all the previous men.
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Hopefully Chip can be that rare man that can turn a hoe into a house wife..
Nothing to add, this post is just amazing for a million different reasons. I hope we see some beat writers quoting you!
It’s kind of half Bill Simmons, half Jason Whitlock.
Lol
What are you – 12 years old? Bragging and giggling one day about how clever you are to smuggle drugs into the stadium? Then bragging and giggling about sexually assaulting half the human race the next day?
Brady and Manning are completely different-style QBs. You can’t compare quick release pocket passers to a guy who holds onto the ball and scrambles around a lot in terms of wear-and-tear. More likely comparables are guys like Mark Brunell and McNabb who were backups or out of the league entirely by their mid-30s.
Why is it so hard for some people to simply read and comprehend? I did use the word ‘maybe’ and ‘IF’ multiple times when hoping that Vick plays great and not as careless with his body like in the past.
Also – and no offense to No.5 – I wouldn’t compare Vick to McNabb (or Brunell for that matter) as the former is probably the fittest (from a physical point of view) QB to ever play the game.
Comments do come quick and fast when Vick is the subject. Couldn’t get in on either of the previous 2 threads.
I too loved Jimmy’s photoshopping, Kelce looks more like Chewbaca than Chewbaca.
So true.
lol
Sort of an off topic question, but since the topic is really about whether Chip and Lazor can unlock Vick I shall deviate. I gotta know if anyone thinks Chip and Stoutland can unlock Danny Watkins in the same way. The new scheme seems to fit him in a favorable way; it’s simple and run based. I know we’re talking about a backup guard but I have to wonder if Chip can redeem some of the investment we made by drafting him.
To me the most exciting part of the whole Chip transition has been the possibility of rejuvenating some of the busted investments from the last couple of years. Does anybody know if Jaiquawn Jarret is available?
not really
The Jets are apparently very happy with Jaiquawn so far.
As for Watkins, I haven’t completely given up on him yet, but I haven’t seen any reason to be impressed by him yet.
Watkins has to really want it like Vick. He has to play smart and practice hard. Not sure he has the dedication to excellence that is demanded. I was not sure Vick had it either, so I was very surprised about his change in attitude and work ethic.
I always mean to pay attention to him during PS games, but my attention always goes elsewhere…Anyone know how Danny Boy has looked? I would rather not notice him than notice him so I guess that’s a positive
Well, he didn’t play last week because of a concussion. I seem to recall reading that he was solid the first week.
In some ways, unless Danny is stellar, I want him gone. He is a reminder of the faulty thinking that this front office and coach was guilty of the past few years.
I guess this is also why I wanted Vick gone so badly after last year. At some point, flashes of brilliance get out weighed by seemingly black-out periods of stupidity.
Nate Allen makes me feel that way…Him and Coleman are just reminders of the most disgracefully secondary to ever grace the midnight green
Tommy, how do you reconcile Kelly now saying “Vick wont be looking behind his shoulder” and “it’s not a one game deal”, with also saying a few weeks ago “Just because you’re the starter, you
still need to understand that it’s always on the line, It’s on the line every single day for you. So if I name Joe Jones the
starting quarterback and his first 50 passes are interceptions, I’d
better make sure I go to the No. 2 guy, right?” ?
I can’t stand this season knowing that Vick will have carte blanche to play like crap and not be benched. Kelly’s previous comments, and the fact he has less invested in Vick than his previous coaches, gave me hope, but his comments yesterday scared me.
Relax….WTH did you want I’m to say? “The minute Vick plays bad, Foles is coming in the game? he named Vick theQB, he wants To give him every chance to succeed, and making Vick feel like he has someone breathing down his next is not placing him in the best position…If Vick plays bad for a 3 or 4 game stretch fOles will get to play…but the job is Vicks to lose
Basically, he’s saying this isn’t an area where he’s going to be innovative. The starter is the starter and he not getting yanked because he makes a mistake. But a prolonged stretch of bad play will. Standard stuff. No coach is going to be more specific than that, nor should they.
Finlay, I think you are confused. Kelly said, “It’s not a one-game trial basis.” He did not say, “Imma roll wit Vick till I die!”
Though we all wish he talked like that.
Vick can have a bad game. Even a couple. But he won’t get to have a bad month. Kelly wants his points. If the offense isn’t scoring, there will be a change.
Kelly can’t put definitive numbers on this because you can’t factor in misc circumstances. Vick knows he can’t go out there and struggle. He’s allowed to make some mistakes, but if he starts to consistently have problems, he’ll get pulled.
And the same thing would apply to Foles behind him. Heck, it’s true for all players who get in games. You play well, you keep your job.
I like.Vick, but I love Chip.if anyone can make Vick, or Foles or Barkley for that matter, into a consistent, winning QB, I believe its Chippah.
That’s what they said about Reid.
Chip is not Reid. Period. And exclamation point!
Well, it’s hard to argue with a period and exclamation point, BUT, how many first round QB’s has come out Oregon?
Not saying I necessarily agree with him, but that kinda proves his point…Chip has made highly functional offenses out of lesser QBs over and over again at Oregon. It would appear that he doesn’t need a Peyton Manning to run a highly productive and efficient offense.
Not just QBs…but he did what he did without ever really having a top 10 recruiting class. although Marriotta is no slouch. Manziel actually was going to go to Oregon but Marriotta scared him off…what’s even more impressive to me then what Chip did with QBs at Oregon was what he did with Olineman. For a while Top Oline prospects shied away from Oregon because they felt playing Oline for Oregon didn’t translate well to the pro’s…Chip was never stealing top Linemen away from Alabama, yet he manage to always put together a High Octane run game…Funny how now what was thought of as a program that wouldn’t translate well to the NFL is now becoming the NFL
Reid and Kelly are the same in that respect. Every QB Reid has had was successful in his offense. When they left for another team, they never had the same success.
they are also the same in that they were both ahead of the game. Ried knew it was a passing league before the rest of the league, this led to his inflated Ego and him losing his damn mind and forgetting that run games even exist and just became enamored with Deep balls…
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Kelly seems to be the same type of head of his time guy. Hopefully it is proved this year on the field, and he is able to prolong his genius longer than Ried did, while finally bringing us the Parade we crave to see
Not denying that…maybe you edited your original post or I’m going insane…but I thought I was responding to someone who said, “how many top QBs came out of Oregon”…my point being if the offense functioned well with non-elite QBs that is a point in Kelly’s favor not against him. Just like it is (or was) a point in Reid’s favor.
Jernst…No, you’re not going insane. I changed it. It didn’t reflect my actual thought. As you kindly pointed out.
It is a lot easier to win without a top QB in college than it is in the pros. NFL defenses will eventually devour any offense that doesn’t pose a credible threat to throw the ball (look at Tebow). You can’t project college success onto the NFL game on a one-to-one basis.
You are correct. However, until two years ago, Reid was the preeminent groomer of QBs. So, in essence, although Reid really tanked the last few years, his reputation as an excellent teacher of QBs far surpasses that of Chip. Chip has shown nothing yet at the NFL level. Reid was extremely successful and to use Vick’s words, “his body of work speaks for itself”
I agree. I think some people are getting ahead of themselves with Chip. He hasn’t played one regular season game and already he’s being compared to Reid. People can criticize Reid all they want – me included – but he accomplished a lot. The team became unresponsive to him towards the end. It happens. It happened with Charlie Manuel too.
Only time will tell if Vick can run Kelly’s offense. I feel like we’ve talked an awful lot in the past few years about Vick “changing”. Personally, I would like to have a different conversation. But unfortunately, Kelly has decided to keep it going.
Ive been reading that in practice, Vick runs the up tempo read option best of all the QBs. We will see, I’m an optimist. why be jaded?
Why be Jaded?
Maybe you’re a really big Aerosmith fan?
why be jaded
Because you’re less likely to be hoodwinked or disappointed if you take a realistic view of things. I’ve lived through enough NFL seasons to develop a sense for what irrational optimism sounds like, and “Chip Kelly is a genius whose ideas will revolutionize the game and lift previously middling players to the heights of superstardom” sounds an awful lot like irrational optimism to me.
how’s the career of being negative nancy coming along?
Pretty well. I’ve been picking football games for 10 years now and come out ahead every year – sometimes well ahead. I don’t bet on the Eagles but if I did I’d be making money on them too. I predicted the “Dream Team” was going to go 8-8 when everybody else was making Super Bowl plans – was right about that. When I think the Eagles have a good team, I’ll say so – I expected the early 2000s teams to win 11+ games every year. I don’t think this Eagles team is very good. Leave aside the lack of an above average quarterback – this defense is not going to be good. Tons of new parts playing a new scheme for which several of the holdover players aren’t good fits, under a coordinator with a rather poor track record. No elite pass rushers and no elite coverage guys in a passing league. Several players who are declining or serious injury risks. What about this is spells “recipe for success” to you?
If you want to get carried away with preseason optimism, be my guest. As the saying goes, everybody starts 0-0. But don’t be surprised or disappointed when it turns out those of us who had more realistic expectations turn out to be correct.
“sounds an awful lot like irrational optimism to me.”
The phrase, “If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck” seems doubly appropriate.
While I’m agreeing with you in principle, I should point out that “irrational optimism” is stronger than I would word it.
I prefer to be optimistic and be disappointed than to presuppose disappointment and be suprised. I’m a rational optimist. I have seen the read option succeed beyond my own opinions, and have seen Chippah rise from nowhere to where he is. Past behavior is usually predictive of future success. Not always, but that’s a smart bet as far as I’m concerned.
Past behavior is usually predictive of future success.
I agree. Which is why I think it’s too optimistic to expect a team relying on several guys with questionable track records (Vick, Billy Davis, Kenny Phillips, Cary Williams, etc.) to outperform expectations based on those track records.
Why the hell do I have to wake up to his crap news?…Jarius Byrd signed his tender…sigh smh
Well, look on the bright side. If we’re not one of the worst 5 or 6 teams in the league, we’ll have a shot at the best non-QBs next year.
Yeah but we could still have to worry about Marriotta being available between picks 15-20
Sucks that it’s only Weds and we don’t play til Saturday. Now that all the pressure is off Foles shoulders, watch him come out Saturday and play the game of his life. Hopefully Vick continues his lights out play so the media can’t reignite the QB battle…
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Fox sports 1 new live NFL show, talked in depth about the Chip Kelly offense yesterday. Urlacher and Ronde Barber don’t seem very impressed. Urlacher called it basically a bunch of gimmicks all blended into one offense. NFL Referee Guru Mike Perriera talked in depth about how the NFL referees will judge the QB in the ZR options…League mandate last year stated that QBs will not be protected when they are running the ZR option…They will not be treated as defenseless recievers. Even when the QB gives it to the RB, but is pretending he still has the ball, defenses will still be able to tee off on the QB. All the former defensive players on the panel talked about how every defense is going to make it a point to hit Vick hard and often…It’s going to be crucial that when fenders chase after Vick and hit him even when he doesn’t have the ball, that Shady and the rest of the offense gash the defense for Big yards making them pay dearly for taking a shot at Vick…If defenders can take themselves out of the play to hit Vick, while there teammates stop this offense from moving the ball, then it’s oing to be a disaster and Vick won’t last two games…
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Shady has to make defenses pay a steep price everytime they waste one of their defenders, having him hit Vick when he doesn’t have the ball.
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The media only gets to cover half hour of practice, and then they get kicked out…which means now is when all the juicy stuff is being installed
Thanks for sharing the info from Ronde & Urlacher. I like everything you said in your post except this: “Now that all the pressure is off Foles shoulders, watch him come out Saturday and play the game of his life.”
You know I was Team Foles. You know I thought it would be better for the team long term for Foles to win the competition (not for Foles to be handed the job, but for him to actually win). I don’t want a Foles who plays better when there’s no pressure. I want a Foles who plays his best under the greatest pressure. If Foles can’t handle a friendly QB competition, how’s he ever going to handle the post-season? That’s not to say that I want Foles to play badly this weekend, but just to say that I don’t really care as much how Foles is playing now that pressure is off. Oh, another thing: now that the QB depth chart is established, Foles shouldn’t be playing with or against starters this weekend.
Foles is usually a gamer. he isn’t one of those guys that lights it up in practice and then Folds when the bright lights come on. There is no pressure like turning the ball over on your first drive, when you are only getting two drives total…kid constantly proves that he can handle pressure and get over big mistakes and not unwind…That’s one aspect of the kids game that I don’t worry about at all
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Foles isn’t going to play with or against Starters, that’s the point of naming the starter yesterday…Foles having the game of his life would have no impact on Chip Kelly and his decision, unfortunately You have to Know the media will try to make a dollar out of 15 cents, and I want some damn peace around he for a few weeks. I been living this battle for months now, I don’t want to hear the words QB competition again for ATleast another year….so while, Foles play won’t matter on Saturday, I can do without hearing every radio caller second guessing Chips decision, or Media trying to create controversy
Let’s be real. You’re going to keep hearing the words “QB Competition” and/or “QB Controversy” for a long time!
All it will take is for Vick to get hurt again or for Vick to have a poor stretch of play. I doubt you’re going to wait another year before you hear those words again!
ATleast give me two weeks of peace lol
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Just a small two week vacation from the Qb battle lol
So defenses are going to be allowed to tee off on a QB handing the ball off if they can claim they thought the QB still had the ball??? How will the affect the play action that Peyton Manning does (for example)? Does faking a run make a QB a more legitimate target than faking a pass??
Yes, Vick can be hit….You see plenty of plays where Vick hands the ball off to shady who runs right, while Vick pretends he still has the ball and runs left…when that happens, defenders can still Tee Off on Vick. When Vick was named the starter yesterday Shady gushed about how when he had the ball, Vick would still have two guys chasing him the opposite direction…In that scenario Vick can still be hit….We are going to run into a defense who thinks the way to stop it is to really rough up Vick, when that happens its going to be so damn important that our other 10 players make the defense pay, to the point that they can no longer afford to waste a defender on blasting Vick when he doesn’t have the ball…
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I’m confused by your last question about Manning. When he runs a play action and pretends to have handed the ball off, he still has the ball, he is still looking for WR to throw it to, so it’s still the primary goal of defenders to get to Manning and Hit him, of course they have to make sure their timing is on point. Hit Manning too Late after he throws the ball, and you are getting called for a 15yard penalty…A ZR QB won’t get that protection when he hands the ball off. there is no certain time frame that a defender has to hit the QB in when he is pretending to run with the ball…It’s fair game. they can blast Vick 3 seconds after he hands the ball off, but the sins an opportunity cost involved. A Defense would be taking one of its players out of the real play. So they will only have 10 players who are actually trying to stop the ball from advancing. If our Offense allows the defense to stop them only using 10 defenders, then it’s going to be a nightmare for Vick….This is why the Oline and Run game are so important to Chip..
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If Defenders waste a guy Teeing off on Vick when he doesn’t have the ball, and Shady keeps bashing the other 10 defenders for 20-30yard chunks at a time, see how Quickly a DC stops wasting a man on hitting Vick
It’s just a matter of not carrying out the fake after the handoff. I’m sure carrying out the fake helps keep a defender out of the play, but I don’t think it’s a make or break factor for the design of the plays, as the defender would still be frozen for a moment.
From early last season:
“One of the reasons the Washington Redskins rookie quarterback is taking such a beating is that he’s so good at pretending that he still has the ball after he’s handed it off. It gives defensive players freedom to clobber him over and over.
The solution: Stop pretending, if even it means toning down the trickery.
”Some of the option plays, just make it more clear to the refs – whatever refs we have – that I don’t have the ball because then they can’t hit me,” Griffin said Wednesday. ”I guess if I don’t come out with my hands up, then they think I have the ball and legally they can hit me.”
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/redskins-rg3-stop-selling-fake-210823871–nfl.html
I cant speak on this with certainty but we also keep in mind that it’s not always a case of running back runs to the right with the ball, and Vick runs left without the ball…..there will be times when Vick hands it off to the right but also runs right, or runs up the middle…In those situations its much more important that he sells the fake and Holds the fake long enough to take defenders out of the play….Theoretically I guess when he is running away from where Shady is running, he could throw his arms up in the air and exaggerate showing that he doesn’t have the ball..I could see the case for in that scenario not being allowed to tee off on Vick, but I don’t know it to be true or not…
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but the times that Vick has to sell the fake up the gut, or the same side as Shady, he is going to get hit. Often in the ZR’s the QBs become blockers for the ball carrier, and my guess is that’s one of the main reason that they have to allow defenses to hit the QB, but that’s just a guess
we wouldn’t run those options, or the CAR variant where they run cam off tackle.
most of vick’s ZR fakes are happening 5-7 yards behind the LoS. and the mesh point decision is typically based upon a step or shade from the DE or OLB (or whomever is read).
that’s the beauty of the modern ZR option as opposed to the traditional ZR where the QB went down the line and pitched the ball.
on those plays, the defensive counter was to just blow the QB up on every play. and if vick ever runs a standard option, defenses will try to do that.
ncaa is different from nfl, so even though chip had his qb’s run inside a few times, i doubt you’ll see that much at all from the eagles.
Exactly! The blow up the qb every play was an old defense against the old college triple option (fake dive, QB keeper around the edge with option to pitch). One guy takes the QB and clobbers him, the other defender clobbers the pitch man, regardless of who has the ball and whether or not it’s being pitched. The new ZR option plays you are seeing happen out of shot gun, pistol formations, where the mesh point is 4 yards behind the LOS and the QB faking having the ball is carried out 4-5 yards away from defenders and as soon as they start chasing him, he throws his hands up and makes it obvious he doesn’t have the ball. At this point you’ve already effectively blocked the man chasing the QB and the RB is long gone at that point.
That slight nuance that you shared about the modern ZR is an important key.
We are not going to run a ZR play that asks our 6ft 200 pound QB to take it up the middle as one of the options…I can guarantee you that
Foles I believe ran a same side ZR last week on the play shady went crazy, bouncing it left, leaving a trail of dead ankles and then bouncing it back right….but yeah, Haven’t see Chip call that yet for Vick
Exactly, just don’t carry out the fake all the way up until your getting hit. Run backwards and throw your hands up. If they chase you and you run backwards with your hands up they can’t continue to chase you and hit you. They can chase you….but no hitting…which would just make our ZR even deadlier. This is much more of a moot issue. As Chip said, they understand the rules of engagement and they know how to run their offense effectively within them.
GEagle, Kelly will address the Vick hits by optioning pass plays off the ZR. Perfect setup for screens. Green Bay tried the “hit the QB in ZR” against Kap and he killed them.
This! ^
Green Bay’s defense also stunk against everybody last year. Let’s not jump to conclusions based on one game, okay?
Yea, my thoughts exactly…so now every time a QB executes a hand off and fakes a bootleg it’s open season to jack him up as hard as possible. Doubt it.
exactly. Vick isn’t going to.hand the ball off and run right at the DE. The fake will only freeze the DE for.a.second, which is all Shady will.need. If after letting Shady go by the DE runs to Vick and slams him to the ground, he will not only get suspended, he might get tossed from the league.
Hyperbole much? lol.
Great stuff, Tommy. I’m glad you addressed 2014 in your previous post. I’m just going to sit back and watch all of this play out.
I have serious doubts about Vick:
– Doubt that he will stay healthy
– Doubt that he will stop his turnovers
– Doubt that he will actually still be in the NFL by 2016
That said: if Vick can somewhat put it all together under Chip and stay healthy enough we might be watching a special brand of NFL offense.
The one thing obvious is that Chip’s system is extremely QB friendly, whereas AR/MM made large demands on their QBs. Run oriented, with passes coming off the run, means fewer blitzes and a less intense pass rush. Fewer plays to memorize means running those plays with far more repetitions in practice, to where they become second nature. Replacing audibles with options means the QB has fewer pre-snap reads, and a simple decision tree post-snap, and that’s where practice reps come into play, you run through that decision tree again and again until it becomes second nature.
Just look at the % completions by BOTH QBs despite no Maclin, Cooper in and out of the lineup, a rookie TE in Ertz and no Peters. Or go back and look at Dixon before and after Chip at Oregon. The system isn’t foolproof (look at Barkley struggling to master it), but it makes life much easier for a competent QB.
Vick has great physical skills, and solid experience the last four years in playing QB (his experience before AR was less than ideal). He’ll never be Peyton or Brady, but Chip doesn’t ask his QB to BE the show, just RUN the show. He isn’t going to have Vick drop back and try to go through his progressions in 4 seconds behind a zone blocking OL that wasn’t built to sustain a pocket for long periods (unlike Castillo’s wall of lard). It’s bang bang, option 1, read XXX, option 2, option 3, done. Vick and Foles have shown they can execute this system at a high level, and with more practice and game experience, they should be even better as the season progresses.
Where Vick may run into trouble is if the Eagles’ defense is shoddy and he’s 10 points down in the middle of the 3rd Q and has to pass – but even then I suspect Chip has confidence that he can score quickly with his offense, including the run, and won’t revert to desperation “bombs away” playing calling that sets your QB up to be a pinata.
I believe this is the main point on Vick with the Chip offense. It is easier for him to see the defense and make good decisions. And I do think he understands the dedication to excellence demanded by Chip – Win the Day.
I am going to be looking at him real close on Sat. How does he behave on breakdowns? Is he sliding or throwing the ball away? Is he playing smart Chip football?
excellent points.
So, it’s too early to order a custom Teddy Bridgewater jersey?
Not if you think we will win less games than the Raiders, Jags, Browns, Jets
Here are all of the ten teams that I think realistically could be looking for a QB in 2014:
Eagles
Vikings
Rams
Cardinals
Bucs
Jags
Titans
Browns
Chargers
Raiders
I hope that not all of them will, but I think all of those could. Realistically, you might have an injury take place in one of the other 22 teams and suddenly another team that no one expected is also looking for a new (temporary or future) QB.
Yeah we could really see a QB feeding frenzy next year.
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Which is why I so desperately crave for Foles or Matt to prove that one is the definitive QB of the future. teams are going to fighting over QBs, trying to jump ahead of its competitors that teams who aren’t looking at QBs can really benefit. Not only will good players at other positions fall down the draft board further than their value, but there is big potential for trading back, getting more draft picks, and still end up with one of the guys you were targeting at the spot you traded away….
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We can become so much better next offseason if we don’t have to invest in a QB…..If Vick plays well, but Chip isn’t sold on either young gunner, then we could get into scenarios where we are forced to give up valuable draft picks moving up in the draft ahead of certain teams to get our QB, and that really stunts our rebuilding process….We could have a nice roster after one more offseason if we don’t have to worry about QBs…but if we still need to invest in QBs, it will definitely take us two more offseasons to really have the desired roster in place..
There are three best case scenarios for the Eagles:
– Vick plays extremely well and stays healthy. Eagles renew Vick. Vick continues to play well and stay healthy for another few years.
– Vick either doesn’t stay healthy or play well in 2013. Foles (or Barkley) takes over and shows enough that the Eagles don’t feel like they need to get a QB in 2014.
– Vick stinks, Foles stinks, Barkley stinks & so the overall team stinks. Eagles get a new QB in 2014.
Really, the defense will likely drag the team down a bit in 2013. If one or more QBs don’t show that they have it, the Eagles might be in a good position to take a good a QB in the 2014 draft. Still means that the Eagles won’t get a top defensive prospect, but completely rebuilding a team can take time.
I think it’s possible for Foles to sit the entire season, and Chip still be sold on him as our future. I don’t know that to be the case, but just cause Foles wouldn’t have proved it to me and you, doesn’t mean that he can’t possibly prove it to Chip….The world didn’t know that Kapernick was the Answer for Harbaugh, but there was no doubt in Jim’s mind…Kapernick proved it to Harbaugh in practice on a daily basis….So for me, that’s the best case scenario:
Vick playing some good football all year, and Foles not seeing a single start this year, yet still progressing and proving to chip on a daily basis that we don’t need to draft another QB….It would be awesome because if Foles doesn’t play another snap:
A) He can’t diminish the high value that his play has accrued. Right now, Foles has nice value league wide and that will only change if he gets in a game and plays bad
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B) Teams will have no idea what we are really thinking during the first round of next years draft. It helps when other teams have no idea if you need to draft a QB or you are perfectly happy with what you have
Jags are taking Clowney. Assuming he stays healthy, of course. I’m not sure the Vikings, Rams, and Titans are ready to give up on their young QB’s (unless they are Akili Smith bad).
Yikes. I understand that the Jags are a defensive team, but would they really go another year without taking a QB if they really need one next year? I understand them skipping the 2013 draft, but if they keep looking bad in 2013, Gus almost has to think about going with a QB in 2014.
I could see Vikes, Rams or Titans giving up on those young QBs. If any or all of those guys have a bad year and those teams have a chance to upgrade with an elite prospect, why not?
Like I said above, those are teams that we could see going after a QB. It’s a worst case scenario. Even in your reply, you only got the list down to 6 teams.
it won’t even be Gus’s decision. the Jags new GM did not draft Blaine Gabbert. Gabbert Ot working out will not reflect poorly on him. I can’t see anyway that Blaine isn’t replaced unless he has more showing like he had the last game bête he got hurt…I could see Oakland passing on a QB to take Clowney more than I could the Jags
Your points are certainly valid. I do believe AZ, Oak, Jax, and Cle are waiting for the 2014 draft to address their QB situations for the long term. I’m not sure any GM is gonna pass on Clowney at #1, regardless of the QB situation. Too much risk if he turns out to be a monster.
And don’t forget the surprise bad teams. What if Peyton gets hurt again, and the Broncos flop? They’d definitely have to be interested. Or better yet, the Cowboys crash and burn, and the old man fires the coaching staff and benches Romo? I reckon, one way or another, there will be another team or two added to that list by the end of the year.
I think the Cowboys are headed for a bad year. However, even after Jerry removes the entire coaching staff at the end of the year (all but guaranteed), I think Romo gets a pass. Jerru just gave him a big contract and Jerry the Owner is very hesitant to make Jerry the GM look bad.
People don’t want to hear this. Including the Eagles, there may be as many as TEN teams looking for a new QB in 2014! In that scenario, the best case is that the Eagles are only one of FOUR teams looking for a new QB. Still… will the Eagles lose enough or have enough draft ammunition to move up to get one of the elite QB prospects? It might be tough!
Dolphins cut the overpaid Richard Marshall..
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Marshall can play both Safety and Corner. hard nosed play but he only played 4 games last year because of a bad back.
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This isn’t a guy you would sign and pencil in as a starer, but I would rather see what he can do, then see more Marsh or Hughes…
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I doubt he’s interested in coming here as teh #4 CB.
The Eagles like their starters. They love Boykin. There is still a need for depth, but Marshall isn’t going to want that job.
I know he had like 1 good year in Arizona, but I can’t remember when that was or if Horton, or Davis was his DC at the time…Dude made 6million for four games last year.
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If Boykin continues to develope to the point where you can’t justify not playing him on the outside, can Bradley be moved into the slot? I swear I remember him seeing some time in the slot for the Rams, or did I make that up? Lol
No, you play him on the outside in base, then inside for nickel. It’s not worth the downgrade in the slot to have him outside for the sake of him being on the outside.
Wasn’t really talking about this season. I meant if Boykin continues to develope down the road..
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if Bradley Fletcher keeps showing tight coverage like he has up until this point and he stays healthy, then I want him as an Eae for the next 4 years. High Chacrecter locker room guy, who has really been covering well inspight of giving up completions….
I think it’s still going to be hard finding a better slot corner.
The question is, in that scenario would we already have a slot corner in Bradley Fletcher…or does Boykin playing on the outside turn Bradley into a 2nd string outside Corner
From what I’ve seen, I think I might rather have Williams come in to play outside in nickel, and Boykin and Fletcher out there all the time. Even though seeing a #24 out there still makes me cringe.
You can’t make that statement right now…we haven’t seen anything yet from Cary. If we got thenCary that played in last years playoffs than he is our best CB…if we got the Cary from last years regular season, then I’d probably agree with you….remains to be seen
I don’t think Williams has the quickness and hip turn to play inside. That was part of the issue we had with Nnamdi experiment the first year. (By the second year we all realized he couldn’t play outside or inside)
No, you’re mis-reading me. Williams sits for base D, comes in at corner so Boykin can slide to nickel.
I’m fine with the decision AS LONG AS Chip insists on being the coach, and dictating how his players play. I agree with AF (and others) that Chip’s system will minimize Vick’s decision-making and defense-reading flaws.
HOWEVER, Chip has to insist on Vick making the best decisions in terms of staying on the field. That means CK has to, at some point, say, “OK, I made you the starter, You’re going to learn to slide and go OB, because I’m not investing my time and this team’s future in you if you insist on getting broken ribs and concussions because you’re too stubborn and macho to protect yourself. Today we practice sliding for 15 minutes, and that number goes up every time you dive head-first into a linebacker. Are we clear?”
A Vick who protects himself and makes good decisions is a top-5 QB based on accuracy, arm-strength, and elusiveness. Is that possible?
No it’s not…but only because we are in a golden age of QBs. Vick won’t ever be top 5, but we don’t need him to be. He potentially can still be a very dangerous and effective QB, But its really going to take a Masterful coach who will really dummy down the game for a QB, while playing the puppetmaster who pulls the strings of the defense dictating what they can and cant do against us, limiting the exoctic defenses that they throw at Vick……
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But he won’t ever chose Vick over the guys that are in the top 5…Lucky for us, it looks like our Coach is so Brilliant that we can live without one of the very best QBs in the game. We need 16 games out of Shady and our 5 lineman…If we get that, we can do damage
Lucky for us, it looks like our Coach is so Brilliant that we can live without one of the very best QBs in the game
Look, I’m excited to see what Chip Kelly can do in the NFL too, but can we refrain from the revolutionary genius talk until we actually see how his system works in some real games? A lot of hot shot college coaches have come into the NFL over the years and most of them have not turned out to be Vince Lombardi crossed with Bill Walsh.
X –
Thank you.
If he doesn’t make too many mistakes (especially in the face of pressure), and stays relatively healthy, he can have a great season. It he makes too many mistakes, or gets injured, he won’t.
I think it really is that simple.
I’m actually less concerned with the mistakes than I am the injury. Chips coaching and play calling should really help Vick cut down on the mistakes…Unfortunately Chip hasn’t shown a hint of being able to get Vick to protect himself yet…It is still early though. Vick didn’t leave the pocket in the first game, and he only ran like twice during the panthers…
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What really sticks out to me is how big Foles is and how different it looks when he is getting hit, than when mike gets hit…Foles had a nice run, where he slid beautifully putting a cheesy smile on my face..but he also took off and Ran for a first down, without sliding…and you see that he is so big that it looks like he absorbs the hits really well. Baldi alluded to it when he took that late hit near our ENDZONE and drew the penalty….If Vick continues to dive head first, defenders will just maliciously dive and land on his back, or hit his head and give him concussions…That sliding rule is in place because everyone but Vick knows that QBs can’t survive playing the way Vick plays…
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if Chip and Vick can change this expensive bad habit, my excitement level will go through the roof. Vick should take it as a challenge to shred defenses with his legs and not Llow a defender to touch him the way Aaron Rogers does. That would drive defenders and DC’s insane…
There’s a highly ranked safety with a great name from Alabama…
Ha-Ha Clinton-Dix
http://www.rolltide.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/clintondix_haha00.html
I’ve always been hugely against Vick as I believe that the success in 2010 was fool’s gold that merely required other teams to make a few adjustments. You can’t win with Vick as your QB if you throw the ball as much as Andy Reid likes to because he’s not a pocket passer in the mold of Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, or Drew Brees (or even McNabb for that matter).
That being said, I think that Vick has a much better chance to succeed with Chip at the helm because he won’t have to throw the ball 30-40 times per game which will allow him to play to his strengths–getting out of the pocket and running/using himself as a decoy to open up play action/running plays/etc. Having the offensive line back and in good health will also help a lot. Chip’s ability to simplify the game will also help Vick as I don’t think that he’s the greatest at reading defense like the true West Coast Offense requires.
The problem with this theory is that given the unsettled and pedestrianly talented nature of the defense, this team is likely to be playing from behind a lot this year. I don’t know that Kelly will have the luxury of protecting his quarterback from having to throw 35-40 times a game this season.
Re: The Running Game
There will be games in which the defense flat-out stops the RBs. It happens to the best running teams with the best backs.
Those games will be the true test of Kelly’s system.
I dunno man…If this line stays healthy, along with Shady,Bryce and Polk(under the assumption that they continue to improve), Defenses might be able to shut down the run in the first half, but the way we have been training this offseason, should really show up for us in the 2nd half of games. Chip is not a coach who will abandon pounding the rock very easily. it would take being down by a lot of points to get Chip to try and stop feeding the backs at a high tempo, trying to “chip away” at the stout run defense until there is a leak for Bryce or sHady to exploit…Until the NFL Changes and all the teams offseason conditioning programs are run like ours, it’s going to be very difficult to see a defense shut down this running game for 4Quarters without shady getting loose at some point.
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if I had to pick a defense best suited to shut us down it would be Seattle because our their Huge secondary. Not so easy for Cooper, Desean and our TEs to beat up on Browner and Richard Sherm in the run game…I’m not frightened of the redskins defensive personel, but they have experience practicing against Similar run game, although Sal Pal was so happy to point out that the skins ZR has a pitch back option while ours doesn’t…Skins also dont have the viscious Screen game that we do. If I had to pick a defense best suited to stop us in our division it would be the skins…..Really hoping Cox, Kendrick’s and Curry cn Hit RG3 early on Monday night. Put a licking on him, while he is still trying to shake the rust off would really help our chances….That game is going to come down to 3 Things:
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Can we bottle up Alfred Morris who They will rely on heavily especially early in the year when RG3 is just getting back in the flow?
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Can we hit RG3 hard and Early?
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Can Cary Williams contain Garçon?
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if we can do those things well enough, they won’t be able to put up enough points to win…If Vick knows what he is doing, he should be able to drive Kerrigan and Orakpo crazy and take them out the game. with JP handling 1 OLB and Vick freezing the other, we should be able to land a big blow to that defense, which already lost one of its top run defending DTs……and as much as we all respect and Admire London Fletcher, Not many dudes his age can keep up wth Shady when he starts dancing out there…There secondary is Desean Friendly lol and he should be able to get loose….can you just imagine how pumped we would be to see the Chip Kelly start off by going to Washington as an underdog and punching the Skins in the mouth?…Im getting Antsy just writing about it
It happens. It’s inevitable. It doesn’t even have to be a great defense.
It will happen.
It happened to Oregon . . . which ran the speedy offense.
Be prepared.
tommy, a post i wrote on BGN explains major factors in Vick’s development and effectiveness in ATL and PHI, and why there are reasonable expectations that we’ll have different results in 2013.
http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2013/8/21/4642830/what-makes-you-think-vick-will-play-better-in-chip-kellys-offense
long story short, this will be the first balanced offense he’s been in. ATL was heavy on the run to the exclusion of passing, PHI was pass happy to the exclusion of running. and both had HORRIBLE game coaches, who were stubborn and would not / could not change their gameplans or adjust to ways that teams attacked vick.
specifically, that was via secondary pressure. as mentioned in the article above, i posted in advance of the giants game that teams would send secondary pressure at vick in order to stop him after they figured they could not let him sit back in the pocket. i also said that should be easy to counter, because it takes people out of the box and you can simply run shady.
AR/MM spent the next 2.5 years exactly NOT doing that, and vick racked up tons of hits (and turnovers) as a result. very simple.
those same things will not happen in chip’s offense, by design, and due to his not favoring the run over the passing game or vice versa.
Looking at Vick’s time in Atlanta . . . If you add sacks plus just 80% of Vick’s runs to the total number of attempted passes, you’ll always end up with the Falcons CALLING more passes than runs. The ratio varies, but the Reeves/Mora offenses in which Vick played were tilted to the pass.
Also, in arguing that Kelly’s offense will be balanced — how do you define “balanced”?
Is that 50/50 run-to-pass calls? Or 47/53 . . . which is close to Vick’s Atlanta numbers.
Maybe — as T-Law’s suggested — a more important ingredient to how Vick performs this year will be the fact that he’s a better student of the game than in the past.
Only time will tell.
I think with Kelly it’s not a matter of balance. The question is did we take what the D gave us? If the D puts 5 in the box every single play, we should be running it more like 90/10.
I’ll be watching to see how Vick does in calling these things. I trust his arm and his legs – when he has time. But the key to having time is knowing what to do with what the D shows.
Perfectly framed. Perfectly.
And then he has to execute.
I wonder if Vick had the freedom to audible out of all those passing plays under Reid — especially given all those years as an NFL starter.
If the answer is “yes,” but Vick failed to make the right adjustments — the way Manning or Brady routinely do — then that fact may not bode well for the requisite “on the fly” decisions a QB apparently needs to make in Kelly’s offense.
I was away for a day, so I missed this… But I’d say Vick did have the freedom – because when Foles came in, he audibled to run plays with Brown a few times.
Potex is specifically referring to Jim Mora’s time there…which was definitely tilted toward the run. Reeves had a system in place that worked well for Vick that he likely would have advanced had he remained the coach.
I’m kind of sick of the Vick talk, honestly. My prediction (on which I would be money) is that Vick will be the same sometimes electric but generally erratic and mistake-prone player he’s always been, will lead the offense to a few explosive displays in which he looks amazing and also have a few head-slappingly awful games in which he turns the ball over four times, and will get hurt at some point in the season. Basically, same as it ever was. I think a more run-heavy offense can change his fortunes somewhat, but when it comes down to it you can’t succeed in the NFL over the long term unless you have a quarterback who can make NFL caliber decisions and execute NFL caliber throws against NFL caliber defenses. That’s a basic law of NFL football and as smart as Chip Kelly is I think it’s wishful thinking to expect him to change it. Remember, Steve Spurrier’s offense looked great in his first NFL preseason, and once he got into the regular season and teams started game planning to stop it, the fact that he didn’t have a top notch quarterback sank him.
As for the team at large, if everything goes right the ceiling is probably in the 9-7, first round playoff fodder range. This team has talent on the offensive side of the ball but the defense is going to be a major project for most of the year and they will need to score a lot of points to win consistently. I don’t see them doing that enough to seriously contend. At the end of the year we’re going to be right back where we started, wondering who the quarterback of the future is going to be with no candidate on the roster.
Tommy:
I am glad that you did this follow up post. Though you still are giving your opinion, this came off as much more fair than the last post. Michael Vick is not Tom Brady or Peyton Manning, but he isn’t Cade McNown either. He is difficult to evaluate versus other quarterbacks because the areas in which he excels are not typically characteristics that have traditionally been attributed to QBs. That doesn’t mean his skills aren’t valuable, the question is what is the value? Based on current trends, maybe Vick will get more love as time goes own as the QB position seems to be morphing into a more athletic position. Not necessarily a running position, but the most recent draftees are definitely athletic, including traditional dropback guys such as Luck or Barkley.
I think you noticed this after your first post, but you came off as too absolute in your analysis. Specifically, the part about regardless of what Vick does this year, he can’t be considered great. That is obviously counterintuitive. If Vick’s performance in the upcoming season can impact him negatively, surely it can impact him positively as well. That is the same standard that all players should be held. Does a bad year by Peyton Manning or Tom Brady mean that they are no longer HoFers? No. But, can it impact their legacy and how they are measured against other HOFers? Yes.
I look forward to the next article. Vick is like the ultimate Rorschach test. Through our analysis of him, it helps us to reveal more about who we are individually.
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Boy — a couple series in 2 pre-season games and everyone has Vick figured out.
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