Let’s Talk About the DL
Posted: August 18th, 2014 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 144 Comments »This is Year 2 of the 3-4. The Eagles DL has undergone quite a change since the days of the Wide 9 (I still miss Derek Landri). This group is young, big and deep.
Fletcher Cox gets a lot of criticism. I’m not sure how much of it is warranted. He played well in 2013, even as he adjusted to a new scheme and new role. Cox has not been dominant this summer, but I prefer to see what he does in real games before making any serious judgments.
Bennie Logan has been hurt for much of the summer, but did play on Friday. He looked okay, but didn’t stand out. I’m sure he was somewhat rusty. This week will be a better indicator of where he is.
Cedric Thornton is Steady Eddie. He is a terrific run defender. Thornton’s goal this year is to be a better pass rusher.
That is a solid group of starters. They function well together and fit the roles of the 3-4. The backup DL is going to be very different this year. Clifton Geathers is gone. Logan was the backup NT last year, but is now starting.
Based on what I’ve seen this summer, Brandon Bair is the #3 DE. But what about Vinny Curry? He is a playmaker and disruptive force, but is more of a role player than a traditional DE. I think Bair is a virtual lock to make the roster. Some people will point out that he’s going to turn 30 in November and has no upside. Why keep this guy?
In 2011 the Eagles signed an older player with limited experience. That was Evan Mathis and he turned out to be one of the great FA signings in Eagles history. Last year the team added Allen Barbre as a backup OL. He became the #6 OL and is now going to start for a month.
You don’t want to build around older guys, but there is nothing wrong with adding an older player to the rotation. Bair had a terrific showing this spring and summer, then looked even better in the preseason games. He has earned a roster spot and playing time.
Damion Square is the incumbent backup NT, but I don’t see how he keeps that job over Beau Allen. Square has been okay, but Allen has been terrific. I think Allen is a lock for the roster and Square is on the outside looking in.
Curry is going to be the other backup DE. Obviously he will be a key part of the Nickel and Dime units, where he plays DE, DT and even some NT. I know many of you want Curry on the field even more, but he’s just not a great fit for the 3-4. He’s getting better, but still likes to shoot gaps more than anchor and 2-gap.
Taylor Hart would be the #7 DL and have the final roster spot. He played well in camp and has looked solid in the games, but I don’t know that he’s a guy you want to rush into the lineup. He might be a year away from being a good backup. Hart is right on schedule. He’s played well enough that you are going to keep him and would like to see what he could do. If this were 2013, he would be a backup for sure. The DL is better this year so I think he’ll be inactive a lot.
Joe Kruger looks like he needs a year on the practice squad. He is bigger and stronger. He flashes good physical ability at times. But he isn’t consistently good and he still struggles with 2-gapping. Kruger is young and has upside so I hope the Eagles can keep him on the PS, but he’s not worth forcing onto the roster. He hasn’t earned that and his potential isn’t special.
The only other player I’m really interested in is backup NT Wade Keliikipi. He flashes. He has a NT body. I just don’t know that you can keep him on the PS with 2 other young NTs already on the roster.
I know the talk of Bair over Curry and Kruger will bother some of you, but he’s been the best 3-4 DE of the group. The coaches are telling you what they think by how much they’ve played him and the fact it has happened against starting competition. Bair has earned a roster spot with his play. I wish he was 25, but the fact he’s 29 doesn’t change his game tape. He’s been very good this summer. You don’t keep potential (Kruger) over production (Bair) when one guy is clearly better.
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I’ll post the DGR tonight.
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Didn’t know Bair was that old, hah! Well that doesn’t feel very good.
Well, I can only say that I respect your opinion, but hope you are dead wrong concerning Bair, Tommy. Mathis turned out good enough to start. He also had experience in the NFL. Barbre had experience and turned out to be an important back-up. Since you don’t rotate at the O-Line, it’s important to have this good back-up.
I wrote in the other post that it would be another story with Bair if his competition would be Geathers or Square. Those guys just aren’t good players and they have minimum upside. I don’t like the idea of a 30 year old rookie on the roster, but you could at least justify the decision to keep him.
This season, I see no reason why you should make Hart inactive on gameday because of Bair. Hart played solid in the Preseason, he knows the scheme, he should grow with more snaps giving to him. The maybe slightly better play Bair gives you doesn’t justify him as 30 year old rookie.
If he’s better than Hart right now, then you probably play him now. Perhaps he becomes the Geathers type of player who plays more in the beginning of the season, but is supplanted by a rookie partway through. Kelly has said though he doesn’t like using roster spots to purely groom future potential; he likes production here and now. (That comment probably goes for someone more like Kruger than Hart.) There are some of those “potential” spots on the roster to be sure, as you do need to plan out who will be inactive on gameday, but if there is a player who is clearly better right now you probably want to keep him. DL backups are probably more important than OL since they rotate in and play. If they keep Bair, it’s because they want the level of play he brings right now, since he’s probably at his peak.
The Geathers comparison is a good one, or I might say Sopoaga. Interesting twist is that Bair has been Taylor Hart’s mentor since Hart’s freshman year at Oregon (2010). I wrote an article about it here: http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles/Ducks_Fly_Together_Bair_Hart_Eagles.html
That is very interesting about Bair and Hart. I don’t know that I like the Geathers comparison though. Geathers had never shown anything special before coming here and didn’t show anything special here. His size and athletic ability made him attractive. Bair on the other hand looks really really good while playing and is just a typical 34 DE body type.
Interesting read, Mark. I hope Bair will never be on the 53, but that doesn’t mean the article isn’t worth a read. 😉
Thanks! (I think.) Bair was great against Chicago and solid against NE, playing vs. ones. So he’s no Geather or even Sopoaga — who was very experienced and could educate a younger player until he gets his legs under him.
There’s no reason to think Bair won’t help Kruger too, for that matter. But the main thing is Bair is ready to go in Chip’s two-gapping 3-4 right now, did it well for 3 years all the way to the NCG. Second team all-PAC 12 IIRC.
“But the main thing is Bair is ready to go in Chip’s two-gapping 3-4 right now, did it well for 3 years”
I’d say the same thing about Hart, though. And he’s much younger.
I think they’ll both make the team and see the field this year. I agree about Hart, but Bair has shown much more playmaking ability so far. (He batted down a pass last night, to add to his list.)
Also, the age factor makes it smart to use Bair right away and let Hart “redshirt” a bit, or at least keep learning from his mentor who Beau Allen said is nicknamed “Papa Bair” for his paternal and encouraging ways.
You aren’t drafting him at 30 years old. He’s a free agent signing. If he plays well, he plays well for reeaaallll cheap for the next few years. If he doesn’t, you cut him for peanuts. No capital wasted, and the young guys behind him will still get plenty of practice time.
See, that’s the problem. For me, a roster spot is invested capital. I have nothing against vets if the situation is right, but I hate giving a roster spot to a 30 year old rookie if Hart could get the job done – easily. Worst case (!) is you lose around 5 or 10 % of production from that 25 % of the snaps you give Hart.
I don’t get why people don’t give Hart the time they give Smith or Matthews. He played two preseason games and was solid. Why should he be inactive on gameday?
If we had a 30 year old rookie WR who had two pretty good performances in Preseason, would we even talk about making Matthews the #4 on the depth chart because he wasn’t as good as the grandpa in Preseason?
I think you are discounting injuries in this equation. Our DL was completely healthy last year. Guys are more likely to miss a game or two with a tweak or sprain, which would make Hart active. Also if Hart has a great week or two or develops as the season wears on he should supplant Bair for playing time. Even if Hart is DL 7 he should still get a decent number of snaps. Last year Square was DL 7 and got 150 snaps. Hart isn’t a projected starter next year, so if he can get 150-200 snaps this year and get some experience, with a year of NFL offseason to get bigger and stronger he should be in a much better place to play a bigger role next year.
I’m not discounting injuries. If something serious happens, we could still sign Bair from the street (no one will pick up a player like him, despite the tape) or sign Kruger up from the PS. If it’s more of a minor thing, we could play with 5 for a game or two.
There could be injuries at other positions, too. Have to life with it. I don’t think we need 7 DL. We need 6, the 7th should be battling with the other roster bubble players. What makes the case for Bair even tougher, imho, is that we’d need an injury to make Hart active.
And if Hart is active from week 6 on and Bair is not, we wasted a roster spot for a 30 year old rookie for 6 weeks. That’s not the way we should operate with roster spots.
I see what you’re saying but I don’t know that there are a ton of intriguing guys at the back end of our roster. Momah/Benn/Kelly/Tucker etc. I can all live without. The alternative is you use that spot on someone who was cut from somebody else’s camp. It’s going to take 6 weeks to figure out if the new player has any value. I’d rather let Bair play those first six weeks at a slightly higher level (just like we did with Soap last year) and ease the rookie into playing time. After those six weeks go ahead and cut Bair, you still can go dumpster diving and raid other teams practice squads for that open spot.
I get that you are not blown away by Momah or Tucker or Kelly. But for me, it’s a philosophical question. F.e., Momah showed improvements compared to last year. He played with the 1s during Preseason. I’m not on the bandwaggon, don’t get me wrong, but there is a chance he could be our WR #5 next year. Who knows, maybe even #4 (not likely, but possible). Stacking guys who maybe have a chance to contribute for your team for years is the way smart organisiations build their roster. You need vets, but not 30 year old rookies. And of course, some of those developmental guys won’t pan out. Everyone knows that. But some will. You increase your chances if you don’t put 30 year old rookies on the 53, to put it this way. 😉
Plus, I can’t stress that enough: Hart didn’t struggle so far. If he would have struggled, I get your reasoning with the Soap/Logan situation. You also have to remember, Soap was our starter and locker room leader of this unit. It’s something different to have your starters in place and looking for a back-up compared to having a rookie start at the start of the season.
You are right about a roster spot being invested capital. You also don’t ever want to jeopardize on field production for future gain. Win now. If an old man earns his spot, then let him have it.
The difference between Hart and Bair so far this preseason is that Hart has played pretty well against guys that might not even be NFL players. Bair has played very well against NFL starters.
I am especially less concerned with Bair’s age because of the fact he doesn’t have the wear and tear of a typical guy his age.
Puh, mate. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but this thinking “You also don’t ever want to jeopardize on field production for future gain. Win now. If and old man earns his spot, then let him have it” leads you to have a Raiders/Cowboys like roster with no future and no future depth.
If you do it the 49ers or the Seahawks way, that means stuck talent at the end of the roster and do not give grandpas roster spots, you’ll be able to replace starters you can’t pay in the future and you’ll always have depth and competition. I prefer that way.
Also, concering the competition they played against: did Hart get the chance against “starters”? I don’t think so.
Totally agree… Hate people whp act frivolous with a roster spot and I can assure you Chip Kelly values every single roster spot… Heck I think the thing he HATES the most about the NFL is only 53 man rosters, dressing 47 on game day… I think Chip despises that…
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The trick is to be good enough now, but doing it with young players who will grow leaps and bounds the first 3’years in the scheme… Maybe Bair plays a little better than hart today. But Bair is always a backup..Hart can easily reach Bair level, but there’s a chance that with giving him Bair snaps he eventually grows into a starting caliber DE…
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Bair isn’t special enough, to shun the future, and be short sited as to give him young players spots and reps that we need to grow them
“The trick is to be good enough now, but doing it with young players who
will grow leaps and bounds the first 3’years in the scheme…”
Exactly. I’m not arguing about starting vets (especially not guys like Peters or Mathis – I’m worried about them long term, of course, but nobody is stupid enough to want them see replaced now) or valuable back-ups like Barbre or B. Smith. But at the back end of the roster, there should be talent with upside. And if you build through the draft, what we want to do, you better draft good and if you draft good, there is enough talent at the back end.
Well said…cringe everytime someone reaches and tries to compare Bair to Barbre…..
Eagles are betting heavily on these guys improving though this year and showing more consistency (Cox).
Its an okay group that has it moments but besides Cox I don’t see a single player who really has that upside potential.
Also a group that has almost no depth and that didn’t really get tested last year as the Eagles D had the healthiest front 7 in the entire NFL. I guess I would be happy if they played overall as they did last year when they were solid vs run with a so-so pass rush. Just isn’t a group with elite talent or incredible depth.
Eagles need those playmakers at LB and besides Kendricks (and Barwin at times) they just don’t have them yet.
It’s a true 2-gap front 3. Don’t need Hall of famers up there, just guys who can eat up blockers. What we do absolutely need is a probowler in the OLB rotation if we want to break into the top 10 D. Could use a probowler in the ILB’s as well if we want to go further than that. In this system everything falls on the linebackers to make the plays. That defense goes as far as they’ll take us.
I think we have different ideas of what “no depth” means when people are claiming that Beau Allen and Vinny Curry as the #4 and #5 should be on the field more. Complaining about depth when we have 5 supposed starter quality players on a 3 person line is, to me, like worrying that we don’t have a pro-bowler as our #3 running back.
Eagles did address some of their depth issues in the secondary issues including bringing back Allen & having him fight for a spot with Wolf and bringing in Carroll.
‘Depth’ to me means anyone who isn’t starting and yeah I don’t know if Allen is a starting-caliber player yet and Curry has shown that he isn’t in this scheme.
What would you have liked to see them do differently?
Really not much different given other needs they had this offseason.
I agree with your last sentence completely. I give the line a bit of a pass on the sacks and hurries. The pass rush started with them last year tbh. Cox had more hurries than anyone on the team right? How many 2 gapping 34 fronts have been known for harassing the QBs.
Cox was already one of the top pass rushing 3-4 DE in the NFL.. Not bad for his first year in the scheme and second year in The NFL.. People pay too much attention to the sack numbers and don’t give enough credit for 39 QB hurries or the two INTs he forced QBs to throw to boykin
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Couldn’t be any happier with his career trajectory at this point. I don’t factor his preseason play into the equation
Thornton is going to be fantastic against the run…and we forget how young and inexperienced he is because he is so damn solid..
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No clue why anyone would want to replace Thornton or Cox
Tells you a lot too about the real lack of depth when a guy who couldn’t get on the field the last 3 years is the #3 DE possibly on the DE chart and Squares (pure roster filler) might still make the roster.
Hoping Allen beats him out and that this group enjoys good luck on the health side while showing some progress from last year.
“…Couldn’t get on the field the last three years…”
When the light comes on, the light comes on. Thornton went undrafted, too. If he’s playing well now, that’s all that matters.
Thornton is 26 years old now. He was 25 when the lights came on. That’s a big, big difference. I guess nobody would argue against Bair if he’d be 25.
Sure. But you act like putting him on the roster leads to a long term commitment from the team. He plays this year. If he gets outplayed by Hart next year, he’s gone.
There is no long term commitment. But it’s one player they could develop being on the 53 but not active who they can’t develop because of Bair. It is a waste of a roster spot and it doesn’t have to be a long term commitment to be a negative thing.
Kruger will develop on the PS.
It’s not about Kruger. I simply much rather develop as much talent as possible if you ask me to choose between a young talent and a 30 year old rookie. I don’t care if we talk about Josey, Momah, Tucker or whatever his name is.
So you rather have a worse team than fielding best team for next year?
It’s a trade off Kelly and Howie need to make. I know QB2 could be (with an injury) so much more important, but it’s like signing Sanchez to a one year deal. How does that help us in year 2 – he is quite likely to be gone, Barkley has missed all those QB2 reps etc. I’m kind of not a fan, but Chip thinks hey I’m not admitting I can’t win the GD SB this year and that might mean I need a better QB2 than Barkley is right now in 2014.
So they often have to make a long v. short term benefit decision. Hopefully they do it well.
There are situations where you have to take the short term over the long term. It’s not like anyone here wants a team that has only < 25 years players on it. You need older players, but they have to bring something to the table to make up for their lack of upside. Sanchez brings something to the table – insurance for a Foles injury and Barkley not developing as we wanted him. He also plays the most important position in football. Veteran QB back-ups have value.
Another example is WR. Brad Smith brings something to the table. Insurance for the rookies and our injury prone (esp. Maclin) starters. Plus he's great at ST.
Bair is no vet. He has no experience in the NFL. + we have young depth at the position.
If Smith would be basically a rookie (despite his age) and we'd have as much depth at the WR as we have at DL, I would hate giving him a roster spot. But in the situation we're in, it's ok. It's not ok with Bair, imho.
Yep I agree the factors are different each time. I’m on Team Kruger right now, but was just pointing out this is a cost benefit analysis that is often done.
You’d also consider whether Kruger could be stashed on the PS another year, etc.
I take a little less good team (it’s not like there are light years between Hart and Bair, the love this guy is receiving from some people here scares me a little bit) for a more talent filled team in the future any day of the week. Every team should, if they are not in win now like the Saints, Broncos or Patriots are at the moment. If your HoF QB is 37 years old, I get the win now thinking. But not in our situation.
PREACH!!!
Welcome back, Geag. I missed my upside companion during the Bair discussion today. 😉 I guess your theme is Long instead of Graham (I agree with you there), mine is any talented player instead of Bair. 😀
I don’t really have a favorite between Long and BG… I just thought Long was a much bigger threat to take BG spot than most people care to acknowledge..
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Usually when I type that, crap sand which or whatever his name is likes to run his mouth… But I’m sure by now he reality is settling in and he is best trying to duck his head in the sand like an Ostridge and hope I show mercy LOL
BUT – if you rush up rookies too early, they can get humiliated and lose confidence. You can destroy their entire career. The leap to the NFL is daunting. That’s why you want to squeeze all you can out of vets while they’re still got legs, and Bair is at his physical peak.
You’re right, of course. That’s why Reynolds won’t see too much action in year 1. He was known to be raw. Better coach him up carefully. And I think that’s the plan with him.
With Hart, on the other hand, I saw no overwhelmed Rookie in the first two Preseason games. He played good for a rookie, solid overall. He knows the scheme and knows the program. He’s an old rookie, only 2 months older than Cox, who will be in his 3rd year with us.
Don’t rush a rookie into action if he’s not ready, you could destroy his career, you’re right about that. But I simply see no reason why Hart shouldn’t be ready.
Agreed. I think Chip has an unusually good sense for exactly how far he can bring along players, and I think you’re right that Hart will see some snaps off the bench this year. Some beat writers are projecting him as a practice squad candidate, but I just don’t see it. He has played well and might eventually team up with Beau Allen as a beefier run stuffing front line for certain matchups.
How old was Mathis though? Quintin Mikkel? The stud LB for the Steelers whos name is escaping me..
James Harrison
Harrison was 24 when the Steelers signed him as UDFA and 26 when he finally made the 53 for them. Mikkel was 23 when we signed him as UDFA. I don’t know what you want to say to me with those examples.
Mathis was 29 when he signed with us, but he was a vet. Not a great vet, but a solid one.
From 2011:
“More importantly, they have a player who hasn’t allowed a sack in his
last two seasons (25 games played), according to Stats Inc., and is
ready to compete for a starting job.”
http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/news/article-1/Allure-Of-Mudd-Lures-Vet-Mathis/459436ea-c2cf-4390-9f6a-f1243873fde9
You don’t really want to compare him to Bair, do you?
I meant in terms of becoming good productive starters . At this point no I wouldn’t directly compare them. Just basically trying to make a case that he could possibly become something he has not yet previously been.
Right… I mean have you watched so far BobSmith77? The guy has probably flashed more than anyone on the entire defense.
2 games in preseason against 2nd/3rd stringers. Next to meaningless except to determine depth chart issues.
And 1s. Agree to disagree I suppose
Kruger was in ‘redshirt’ freshman year last year, probably practice squad this year.
I really think Bennie Logan is going to impress. Seems like Bennie is ‘slow playing’ preseason or not over doing it to keep from injury.
You’ve got to understand that Logan, Cox really are athletic and quick and shine with twists, stunts etc which Davis isn’t doing in preseason.
Marcus smith will look a lot better sprinting through the A gap or twisting with cox. That was when he shined in college.
Very good point. Bill Davis lovesssss to get those guys moving around up front. Haven’t done pretty much any that in the preseason. Just straight 4 man 1 on 1 rushes with and occasional rudimentary blitz call. Can’t wait till Bill and Jerry start game planning and mixing it up 1st game against Jaguars! !!
Not sure Kruger wouldn’t get poached from the practice squad.
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Our Front 7 is going to be very good… People go crazy with their preseason evaluations, yet the DL isn’t even using any pre snap disguise, let alone any blitzing…
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We will have a top run defense, and be improved at getting off the field on 3rd down…how improved? Is going to dictate how good we are, but it’s going to be a good defense!!
Why would pick up Kruger? He hasnt shown anything yet.
What did Poyer show last year before he was poached? Nothing, you talked a bunch of shit about him and threw it in my face that I liked him….yet now we are on the ‘3rd NFL coach and GM who has thought Poyer was as an NFL player and I just watched him start opposite of Joe Hayden for the Browns and have a really nice showing…
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Not every pick is supposed to provide instant gratification..
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Kruger just added 20 friggin Pounds, has allegedly lost no speed and is getting much better with two gapping and using his hands… He was a 4-3 DE at Utah who never two gapped in his life, last year he didn’t recieve ANY coaching and he didn’t get to work on his two gap in practice against any NFl players, and this is the kid you are just ready to piss away..second youngest player on our team who hasn’t even gotten much practice yet…let’s just piss him away for a 30 yr old who can be a lil upgrade to Clifton Gaethers in a small role?
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How is this not ridiculously short sited?
I didnt threw shit about Poyer, I liked him too.
But really do you really want to down grade at the 3rd DE spot (a spot who will play around 30% and Curry is not a DE in this sense), over a 22 year old who has shown zero?
What’s the payoff though? Is Kruger’s ceiling a starting 3-4 DE? If so, what are the chances he reaches that ceiling? These are things that the decision makers have to consider. My admittedly low information belief is that the most likely outcome for Kruger is rotational DE, at best DE3 on a good front seven. If that’s the case, why are we clamoring to give this guy a roster spot he clearly hasn’t earned?
I don’t get the Bair-Geathers comparison. From what I saw and have seen, Hart is better than last year’s Geathers by a good measure but not close to as good as Bair. Again, if Hart catches Bair during the season, by all means cut Bair. But I haven’t seen enough to anoint him DE3, and the prospect of developing Kruger doesn’t move the needle for me.
In order to steal a PS guy, a team has to put him on their 53. Outside of Bela-cheat doing it to stash the guy out of spite, I’m not sure what team would do that right away.
Tell me there’s going to be a H2H before the season starts!
Bair has very low miles on him, though. He had a two year Mormon mission (before his college career), and was on the bottom of rosters the last 3 years, so he didn’t play a snap. He’s a workout warrior and runs a gym in his home town. So I’m less concerned about the age than I would be with most players.
I don’t think that Mathis and Bair is a good comparison. Mathis had starting experience in the league with Carolina. Bair has received very little time in actual games. Not saying that Bair shouldn’t get a job over Kruger and/or Square, but he doesn’t have the same resume that Mathis had before coming to the Eagles.
Mathis is the best player in the league at his position… Unless we think Bair is the next JJ Watt, the comparison is absurd. They saw Bair plenty on our practice squad while Kruger was on IR and couldn’t work with coaches. If coaching Bair turned him into this player fans want to cut young players over! what can Kruger be with some actually coaching?
and we didnt knew that when he started for us.
We found out quickly tho didn’t we? Bair isn’t some player that was just introduced to our coaches two weeks ago…
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Maybe if you are in Super Bowl or bust mode you can keep a 30yr old backup over a 22yr old you haven’t even coached up yet… But for us, it’s crazy…
…our DL is going to be really really good, and it’s going to be really really young… If we are going to keep a 30yr old he better be a big piece of that line… Don’t care how Bair biased you are, even his mother wouldn’t suggest him starting for us
But it’s a myth Mathis was a no one when we signed him. He wasn’t a star, of course, but he played 25 games for the Bengals in the two years before signing with us and didn’t give up a sack in those games. He was signed to compete for a starter job. He’s far more comparable to Carroll than he is to Bair.
I’d really love to know why the coaching staff on Cincy hated Mathis so much.
If you can trust the player, back in 2011 Mathis said he wanted to play for us because he wanted to play for Mudd. His O-Line coach in Cincy even recommended Mudd as a O-Line genius. If Mathis did a little research (and he’s smart enough for that, if not, he has an agent) he knew Mudd liked those atletic linemen and he knew he was one.
But then again, the Seahawks fans could ask themselves why the Eagles didn’t like Chris Clemons. It happens, teams make mistakes.
It’s Bair v Square as the 6th player to dress. Hart will be stashed but not dress unless there’s an injury as he adds strength.
I wasn’t impressed with Keliikipi, he’s this year’s Square, a mediocre athlete who tries hard but has little upside.
Kruger may go to the PS, he needs another year in the weight room.
The guy I want on the PS is Mays, who is a better athlete than Kruger with a bigger frame but who needs a lot of work, and I wouldn’t mind it if the Ranger was stashed there as well, he’s very raw but has potential.
That would mean you view Square as a capable DE and not just a NT? Otherwise we are dressing 3 NTs, 2 of which are really suited for NT only.
I think the bigger thing for Kruger isn’t as much weight room (it definitely wouldn’t hurt) but a year of practice experience. When he was redshirted last year he wasn’t allowed to practice and work on the fundamentals and techniques.
Exactly why I’m not ok losing him at this point. If you are going to spend picks on a project, you have to ATleast see what he can be with a year of coaching before you go pissing him away for 30year olds…
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If he would have practiced last year, and we decided we can’t work with him, I’d be fine with losing him now..
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The kid just put on 20 friggin pounds…how about coach him up, give him some time to learn to play with an extra 20lbs of weight before we go cutting him for 30yr old practice squad players
Kruger was a 7th round pick, the odds he gets picked up is very small.
You can’t know that until you see what injuries teams have as the year progresses. If a few 3-4 teams lose guys to the IR in the first month or so, Kruger’s value to another team increases.
Problem is Kruger has shown zero, so why would a team pick him up over just using the 7th or 8th DL on their own roster?
And that is a great counterpoint. But there are a lot of 3-4 teams in the NFL and we’re playing a few of them on our pre-season schedule. I’d really hate to risk losing the guy if we can find a way to avoid it.
Wouldn’t call it zero. I saw a few flashes. The play that stuck out to me in my review was he got a very nice punch off on the O-lineman, blew him off the line of scrimmage knocked him back and used that separation to crash a run play. Saw some solid technique on another play where we was engaged with a blocker but managed to keep leverage getting his shoulder to the running lane used that long arm like a net and caught the tackler. Been seeing Bair do a lot of that (more of it vs tougher competition, but they’re in very very different stages of their career). No one’s right or wrong on this one. Just a judgment call.
Highly doubt he can last a year on our PS… Being able to stash him on our PS would actually be my ideal situation, I just don’t think we can pull it off without him getting poached… I would LOVE to be wrong tho..
I don’t know that you’re right either. I think Anders has a good half point and you do as well. I just can’t stomach any type of risk.
We are keeping 7’DL…
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Locks:
Cox
Thornton
Logan
Beau
Curry
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Still have the 6th and 7th DL to fill out of:
Square, Kruger! Bair and hart.
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Possible that we IR hart! but I doubt it because he doesn’t need to be IR’ed… So In my mind it’s Kruger vs. Bair vs. Square
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For square to make team it has to be at DE because no one keeps 3 NT’s
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So in my mind it’s Bair vs! Kruger
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IMO Bair being Marginally better then a kid 8 years younger then him, is not good enough to get us to piss away a draft pick without even seeing what he can be with a year of coaching first.. Out of 90 Eagles at camp, Kruger is the second youngest, we can all agree thru two preseason games Bair has played better, which could be good enough if there was only a two year different in age…but we are talking about 8 year difference. No matter what anyone thinks of Bair they can’t possibly think he is going to win a starting role. Just not worth giving up on a 22yr old because a 30yr old is a little more game ready to get 10 snaps as a backup per game..
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I find the notion to be absurdly short sited… I thought we were “building a program”.. Keeping a 30yr old who is a little better then a 22yr old is maybe what a Super Bowl contender can justify doing…but would be ridiculous for a team trying to build a program
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Not for nothing, I like have such a young DL, see no reason to add an ok 30yr old
Isn’t Square going to be cut?
Yes
Just want to say that I love the discussion about the bottom of the roster players.
The chances that any of these guys see significant snaps -let alone make an impact -are slim.
But still we argue the pros and cons like it’s the Treaty of Paris. The first one.
Right esp after just 2 preseason games. I get it as we come up on the last cut date, but to have this discussion now shows the intensity of the following here.
I enjoy but really don’t follow this closely. I’m not that close – I see Jonesy make that TD run and think we’ve gotta HAVE that guy on the 53.
I’m baffled by Momah though.
I do think Chip is really bright and can weigh short-term v. long-term needs, etc. and sees all the practice tape that we don’t. I have faith, for now at least. It isn’t like we’re watching the Phillies keep signing 35 year old vets to 3 years and a player option year too. So while I enjoy seeing these debates, I do trust for now we have smart guys with better information than us making the decisions.
Anyone here who says or thinks he’s as football smart as Chip is an idiot. Doesn’t mean you have to agree with all his decisions, especially if we’re talking philosophical questions like upside vs. 30 year old rookies.
of course, that’s what makes it fun. I didn’t mean to sound like I was saying “so stop commenting” if it sounded like that. I enjoy all this.
No, I didn’t thought you want to silence the discussion or anything. Just wanted to make clear that I know that Chip is way, way smarter than me when it comes to football – but that doesn’t mean I will agree with every move he makes.
See, I actually think Amaro is not smarter than us. Which is why I’ve given up on the Phils for now.
Starting to think this time of year does more harm then good for fans..
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Seeing guys play well or bad this time of year can be so misleading… Might be more accurate sticking to your opinions from before the preseason started, then letting the preseason change our opinions..
Didn’t you condemn someone as blinded by their bias for doing exactly that?
What I don’t get in the Bair discussion is why Hart doesn’t get the benefit of the doubt since he’s a rookie. Matthews has one bad game against the Bears – it’s fine, he’s a rookie. Huff had one catch as a receiver in two games – it’s fine, he’s a rookie. Smith hasn’t showed anything in the pass rushing department – it’s fine, he’s a rookie. Watkins had a read bad game against the Bears – it’s fine, he’s a rookie. And rightfully so.
But with Hart, it’s like: well, grandpa played better than him in two games (despite Hart being solid for a Rookie) – let’s not dress that guy during game day and make grandpa our back-up.
If you like Bair that’s ok. But why see him better overall for this team than Hart? That’s what I don’t get.
I hear you mate,. Hart has the polish to wear he should be ready to contribute by the latest Midseason…
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Hart isn’t getting used to playing with a new 20lbs on his frame and is much more experienced two gapper than Kruger so I assume hart will be ready to contribute faster than Kruger…. I don’t know anything about these kids work ethic, but even if Bair is better today, he won’t be better for long…..
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This isn’t Super Bowl or bust…. I don’t even see the point in adding 30 year old bench players at a position of strength.,.. Our DL is going to be really good this year,and it’s really really young… What is the point of adding a 30yr old for 10 snaps a game and lose young talent that will surpass his ability..
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When it’s all said and done I bet both hart and Kruger go on to have significantly better careers than 30yr old fresh off the practice squad
Dead on.
I don’t think that’s a fair read. Matthews is a 2nd round pick who has looked like the team’s third best WR (at least) through camp, even accounting for the one, putrid game. Huff, if he isn’t stashed on IR, is the WR5, a back-of-the-roster spot designed for prospects. Watkins, too. CB5 if he’s not IR’d. Hart, in your view, is a DE3. I know the DE3-WR3 comparison isn’t great, because the WR3 plays more snaps, but he’d have to be more like Matthews than Huff. From what I’ve seen, he’s more Huff than Matthews, which makes sense considering he’s a fifth round pick. Perhaps Watkins is the best comparison. Granted, Carroll, the presumptive first-backup CB (not counting specialist Boykin) is a much better player than Bair, but let both Watkins and Hart play their ways into the rotation.
I think we disagree about Hart. He’s not raw like Reynolds (who played better than expected against the Bears). And I liked his play so far. If he’d be this raw rookie, I’d agree with you.
I think you are a little bit too much much into the “he’s a 5th rounder” thing. It’s a fact (Chip admitted it in front of the media) that he wanted Hart in the 3rd, but Howie said he will be there in the 5th. He’s more Matthews than Huff, altough you can’t really compare the position.
Yeah I suppose that’s what it comes down to. I’m not comfortable with him as a rotational DE yet. Or I guess, more accurately, I’m not comfortable with him if the staff feels that someone else has clearly played better.
Bair is just this summers Na Brown award winner. I don’t really want to lose him, but considering he is 8 years older than Kruger who hasn’t even gotten a year of NFL coaching yet, I find the thought of keeping Bair because he played a little better than the second youngest of the 90 eagles at camp, crazy talk..
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Think it’s a mistake for this organization to give up on Kruger before you see what he can be with a year of coaching.. Now if you want to IR hart and keep both players, or keep 8’DL so we don’t have to make this decision til next year, I’m fine with that… Just think that keeping the marginally better 30 year old over a kid who isn’t supposed to pay off for us is foolishly short sited… If we have to lose a 22yr old for a 30yr old we better be talking about an Evan Mathis type talent. Bair was an eagle last year, if he was going to be the second coming off JJ Watt, we would have already seen it…. When you mention Evan Mathis in relation to Bair! you might as well be talking about JJ Watt. Mathis is the best Guard in the NFL, I somehow I doubt that’s going to be Bair… Even if he is a solid addition this year how many snaps is he really going to get? Taylor hart should be up to bairs level midway thru the season…
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Keeping Bair is fine with me! but not at the expense of Kruger. talented kid coach him up for a year before you piss away the draft pick
was Bair on the PS last year for us? I don’t recognize the name from our conversations last year at this time. Or did we sign him after camp (from where?).
sorry I know these are 101 questions.
Bair was on the PS last year
Yeah PS… Now everyone’s favorite Na brown
Why are you so eager to keep a 7th round pick who hasnt really looked great at all? Keep him a year on the PS
Cuz keeping a 30yr old who is slightly better is fucking stupid
So keeping Allen Babre last year was stupid?
No.. He didn’t cost us any young player we just invested a draft pick in…
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I’m not against keeping Bair. I’m against losing Kruger without a year of coaching to keep bair
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IR hart or Reynolds and keep Both if the 30yr old is SOOO awesome
We invested a 7th round draft pick, thats almost like wasting a nickle, nothing to cry over if he gets claimed.
Just claimed, no. Claimed and out-produces the guys we have over his career, yes.
Again, I hate risk.
I’d be ok risking him at the appropriate time.
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I’d like to see him get coaching, since he never two gapped before and some time to get acclimated playing with the 20lbs we added to his frame before we decided we can risk him…
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Bair may be ahead of Kruger and hart today! but I would friggin hope he is ahead of them at this point…would you be that surprised if either caught up to “Bair level” by Midseason?
and that is what PS is for.
Agree to disagree, think he gets poached.
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He isn’t that far away from being able to contribute like he was when he entered the draft. Already 20lbs heavier and a lot of teams are recently transitioning to two gap 3-4
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All we need is for him to make some plays against the steelers on Thursday and they will be waiting to poach him….
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If I’m wrong. And we can PS him without getting poached, it’s Howies job to know, and I hope they PS squad him…. Don’t care how they go about it, I just need to see him In next years training camp before I am ready to lose him…
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Talented kid… Not as polished of a two gapper as hart! but a higher ceiling. He hasn’t had enough time or coaching yet to fail, so I don’t want to lose him..
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A year of coaching and practicing, and I’ll be ok losing him this time next year if he doesn’t earn his place…he isn’t supposed to pay off yet, so losing a kid with his ceiling now would just make us dumb!
But isnt it taking a risk keeping the less productive player for next season?
There is risk in that as well, and that comes down to how many snaps we’ll need the 3rd and 4th active DEs to take in each game. Another consideration in the whole process is how much they’ll play Allen at NT and Logan at DE in certain sub packages.
I really like how Bair has played, but also like the potential of Hart and Kruger. I still think, even though GEAGLE and I hashed this out in a different thread, that the guy who fits the least well long-term is Curry.
I’d just hate to see Kruger turn into Brett Keisel on somebody else’s roster.
I understand the long-term perspective, but what does Kelly tell the player that comes into his office and questions what all the talk about competing and winning the day was worth if the better player gets cut? What does he tell the UDFA next year to get him to come to camp? There are more costs to keeping the lesser player today than just losing a little production for a year.
Doubt it’s the only time age factors into roster decisions…
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And Bair may be better today, but not by some insane margin to where team mated should be APPAULLED to lose him..
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If you can cut Desean after his best year, I doubt cutting Bair will bring on Mutiny… But if the guy can be that much of an asset this year then go IR hart or Reynolds or something..,
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Personally I think we are getting carried away with preseason. If Bair makes the team it will be in a Clifton Gaethers type role… Why should we lose players who aren’t even close to their ceiling for a slightly better 10 snaps per game..
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I don’t get it….
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If they wanted to cut Kruger this year! they should have practice squad him last year instead of IR… What’s the point in having him add 20lbs if you cut him two minutes later? Why did we even draft him? Why didn’t we just trade the pick away for a pick in a later draft…
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I don’t get it…. Don’t care if Kruger makes the roster, I care that he doesn’t play with another franchise until we see what he can be with a year of coaching…kid never even two gapped before…why would we give up on him now?
If the coaches decide he is worth keeping, great. But keeping him just because otherwise the decision to draft him was a poor one is a corollary to the don’t throw good money after bad truism.
Think there are two types of 7th round picks:
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1) the Beau Allen’s who are extremely experienced, who are what they are but don’t have a high ceiling for growth…. All 7th round picks are fliers, but these types you find out right away if they can play or not. If you don’t have high ceiling to try to grow into, you have to show your worth immediately.. Like a Damon Square/Beau Allen types… Both polished, one square doesn’t seem to have the tools to succeed, the other, Beau seems like who he is, is good enough.. Doesn’t matter if he has tons of ceiling to grow into because who he is, seems to be enough..
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Like the Micheal SAMs type… He is who he is. If he isn’t good enough, he doesn’t have the ceiling to warrant keeping.
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2) the second type of 7th round fliers are potential picks. Guys who are no where near ready, but if you invest in them now, they can pay off for you down the road as the grow into more and more of their ceilings..
If you aren’t going to give these kids the proper time, then you don’t waste a pick on them to begin with
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If every single person in Novacare knew Kruger wasn’t going to pay off for a few years, you don’t spend a pick on him unless you willing to invest those years developing HIM…
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Spending a pick on a. Kid the world knew isn’t ready to pay off, but not invest the time everyone knew he needed is just ridiculous… If you don’t have time to wait for a kid, then you shouldn’t have drafted a project. Trade the pick away if thre is no one to use it on..
..,The eagles liked Kruger! we were happy to draft him. We needed to see if he cOuld put on weight and he did that….now we give up on him because some 30yr old is playing slightly better? PLEASE, Kruger will catch up to Bairs level of play in the near future. And Bair isn’t going to get enough snaps to be worth wasting an investment we spent a year cultivating…invest another year and we can actually get a good idea of what we have and what he will be…
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3rd type of 7th rounder is the knuckleheads who fall because of Charecter, but Kelly doesn’t seem to be interested in those types
Would you be shocked to see Kruger or hart catch up to “Bair level” by midseason
Hart, not really. Kruger, very much.
But that isn’t even the point. Last year Soap was the best player at NT. When that stopped being true, they moved on. There will always be prospects and 7th round flyers to fill the bottom of the roster.
Bottom line, Kruger hasn’t won a spot, or even really flashed potential worth protecting. All he has going for him is a scouting report that says if he hadn’t made a bad decision he would have been picked higher a year later.
If you’ll be 30 in November, you’re better not complaining because a young talent is prefered by the coaching staff. In what world is that complain justified? If we’d only keep our 53 best players and don’t care about the future, we’ll be in no mans land very fast.
Another take on the DL 7 we keep.
If we get a few games into the season and a few teams with 4-3 DEs have some guys hit the IR, can we trade Curry and then move Kruger onto the 53? in order to cut the risk of losing him.
I’m still of the opinion that Curry’s overall value as a player is in a 4-3 and that he’ll never sign a 2nd contract here. I love the guy’s play, but I don’t see us ever getting full value out of his skill set here.
Can’t trade him to we get OLB who can pass rush…
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And since the dolphins show no sign of getting their head out their ass and put Dion in a role he can succeed in, I’d bet that if Curry racks up 6-8 sacks this year as a situational pass rush, another underwhelming year for Dion! and they would be ready to give him up…
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After his rookie year, right now Dion still has his top 5 pick value. But after two bad NFL seasons, that top 5 pick tag goes out the windown. After this year they will already have paid almost half of his contract and it be easier for them to give up on him..
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Dolphins Having big problems at LB and they still refuse to let Dion get any LB snaps. They are intent on him only playing 4-3 DE. Basically they want him to be what Vinny curry already is… Good year out of Vinny, bad year from Dion, and they should be able to get this trade done next offseason,,,
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And if we don’t trade Vinny! wouldn’t be surprised if we move him to predator next year. When we moved him to DE, we were overloaded at predator with BG and Cole.. Both could be gone by the end of the year, and we would have Barwin and Marcus who can play as mirrored OLBs, but when Vinny rotates in at predator, both Marcus and Barwin can go back to the jack role…
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No matter what’s going to happen with Vinny! I think we will get the most out of him if we invest this year of patience… Id be down to trade him now for a pass rushing OLB, but that’s not likely to happen… Pass rush is a weakness for us. We will rely on Cox and Curry being a good interior pass rushing t dem on 3rd, that combined with our twist, stunts and blitzes can compensate for lack of edge terror… Think our best bet is to keep him from the year and use him next offseason to get an OLB, either by trading Vinny for one or moving him to predator
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Might as well try him out at OLB. During the last year of his contract and try and salvage his Longterm future as an eagle. If we keep him at DE we won’t be able to resign him…if he miraculously pans out as a predator it’s easier to justify signing him Longterm… At DE we can’t pay him what 4-3 teams will offer him to be a 3 down player
The earliest you’d see an attempt with Vinny at 3-4 would be 2015 off-season. I can’t imagine they haven’t already considered and rejected the idea.
Don’t understand, please clarify
The Eagles can’t give Vinny a shot at OLB until they devote an entire off-season of prep to him in that role. That would now be 2015 at the earliest.
They’ve not gotten enough pass rush at 3-4 OLB and haven’t played Vinny for that many snaps at 3-4 DE. If they reasonable saw him as a solution at OLB, it stands to reason that they would have tried him out there.
That’s what I said… Next year, when predators Cole and BG are gone and the only OLBs we have our jack style OLB sm focus and Barwin….
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He wouldn’t even have been able to make the transition this summer because he got too fat last year trying to play DE. He said he was wearing the same size jeans as Cox last year which is insane if you know Currs body type.. Now that he has been on his crazy diet, won’t be hard for him to go to his current body, to OLB body next summer…
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We wouldn’t attempt this before next summer. When we decided to move him to DE, we had Cole and BG. Both are gone after this year, so not only will we be light at OLB, but the DL rotation is starting to get crowded..
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If we can’t trade him for Dion, a high draft pick or a talented pass rushing OLB, might be a good idea to see what he can do at predator during the last year we have him under contract… Worst case scenario is still his last year in philly… Who knows maybe we get lucky and he is unblocking from OLB and we can pay him to re sign Longterm…. Keep him at DE and we can’t possibly pay him to stay what a 4-3 team will pay him to be a 3down player
I hear what you’re saying, but if the team really saw Curry as viable at OLB (where we lack depth) they would have made him train himself into the appropriate weight for that position starting in January. Keeping him at DE (where we have depth) heading into this year tells me they don’t think he can adapt to OLB.
OLB is really really crowded… Brandon Graham and Travis long are competing for a 5th OLB spot… No Room to move him there this year… But next year, we are short two OLBs and are a year away from losing Vinny if we keep him at DE… What do we have to lose? Might as well try a desperate last ditch effort to salvage his eagle career…
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But until the Dolphins stop sabatoging Dions career I’m going to have trading for him in the back of my mind…
If those idiots are really intent to just have him rush the passer as a 4-3 DE why wouldn’t they trade for Curry?
It’s actually a good trade that can help both teams
vinny isnt an OLB.
For the record I think every guy who we consider keeping that is both inexperienced and older should get to punch Danny Watkins in his face as punishment for making us question the high age / low experience factor as a negative.
Co sign
Bair over Kruger.. Hmm no thanks.. I’ll go with youth n upside
T-Law:
Respectfully, I think the Bair v. Mathis comparison misses the mark.
Mathis was a 4-year starter at Alabama (3 at OT, 1 at OG); a 1st-Team All-SEC choice at OG his senior year; and a 3rd-Rd pick. By the time he signed with the Birds, Mathis had suited up for 60 NFL games and started 20. He had a starter’s pedigree when he came to Philadelphia, albeit with the qualification of having not started all of the prior season.
Bair missed 4 years between high school and college — 2 on a Mormon mission, and 2 more that I can’t account for (I’ve chosen not to use my FBI contacts, at this point at least, to find out where he was during those 2 missing years). After a red-shirt freshman year at Oregon, Bair spent 2 years as a back up and then his last 2 years as a starter — garnering 2nd-Team All Pac-12 honors. Bair then signed a rookie free-agent deal with KC at age 27 after college . . . and he has no starting-quality pedigree. Bair’s barely been just a guy since turning pro.
Having said all that, the question of keeping Bair over a younger player comes down to how Kelly sees the short- and long-term construction of his team . . . as others have remarked already.
Re: Injuries – off topic
T-Law:
Do you anticipate posting something on the mild injury contagion that’s struck this year’s version of Kelly’s Eagles.
Last pre-season, there were 3 ACLs . . . then a nearly injury free season at every position.
This pre-season, there’ve been a handful of injured hamstrings, a couple of foot injuries, and young Huff’s banged-up shoulder.
Just curious what your thoughts are on why the super smoothies, etc., aren’t the kryptonite for injuries they were last season?
Huff’s injury seemed pretty damn unavoidable. Unless he shoved the smoothies under his shoulder pads.
I think this has been a remarkably healthy camp. Again, no ACL’s, but as for these folks sitting out practice etc — is it possible we’re just resting more people this year?
because theres no such thing as kryptonite for injuries.
RE: Bryan Braman.
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Kid is here to beast on ST for us and I literally expect NOTHING from him on defense this year…. But we are supposed to have good teachers, and that kid is too good of an athlete to not bring anything to the table on defense…
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He is a really special size/speed combo. And he is a physical maniac who loves contact… See no reason why over the next year or two he can’t grow into someone who will bring something to the defense… Im not sure what that something will be.. But they either need to hone his athleticism into a decent situational speed rusher, or teach that long big body to drop in coverage. He is just too good of an athlete to bring nothing to the defense.. His athleticism needs to bring something to our 3rd down subpackages, ATleast as a capable injury insurance policy
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He gets a pass this year, but next year I would like to see him competing with the backup OLBs and making some plays
idk about braman, im not sure he has the instincts for OLB, def good STs player tho
I’ll be honest, I have a really hard time watching all 3 levels of the defense and usually stick to watching the LB’s and secondary. I’m not really sure how any of those guys are doing. However the people I have noticed are Bair and Allen. Allen’s talent as a 7th round pick is crazy to me. I can just see him and Azz getting along really well for some reason.
Beau Allen in the 7th more than makes up for Smith ll in the first. Great first step, Amazing hands, OMG and does he have power. Can’t help but to notice him.
[…] Let’s Talk About the DL – Iggles BlitzI know the talk of Bair over Curry and Kruger will bother some of you, but he’s been the best 3-4 DE of the group. The coaches are telling you what they think by how much they’ve played him and the fact it has happened against starting competition. Bair has earned a roster spot with his play. I wish he was 25, but the fact he’s 29 doesn’t change his game tape. He’s been very good this summer. You don’t keep potential (Kruger) over production (Bair) when one guy is clearly better. […]
I find it interesting that you put Bair at #3 DE. I’m an Oregon guy and I had Bair behind Curry. I have to agree, though, that he’s an excellent 2 gap player. As for his age, even if you got 3 good years from him, wouldn’t that be a reasonable exchange for his play, as well as his helping Hart and perhaps other young linemen to develop? I don’t find the idea all that crazy.
But apparently some people here do….
vinny, cox thorton, cole, demeco MLB, barwin SLB kendricks WLB… give that formation some looks