Long Term QB Talk
Posted: November 22nd, 2014 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 125 Comments »Mark Sanchez will start the game for the Eagles on Sunday when the team hosts the Titans, but the question of who is the Eagles long term QB remains somewhat open.
I wrote a piece on the subject for BGN.
One idea I touched on is whether RG3 could be available in the future. His career has been a disaster since the end of the 2012 season. RG3 catches a ton of flak for how he’s handled things on and off the field, but I think he still has the potential to be a very good NFL QB. I don’t know if that will happen in DC. Mike Shanahan had an awkward relationship with RG3 and now that same situation is happening with Jay Gruden. RG3 might need a change of scenery.
What could Chip Kelly do with RG3?
It is also very possible that Dan Snyder, who is close to his QB, will fire Jay Gruden and hire a coach who is willing to kiss RG3’s butt. Coaches who want a job bad enough are sometimes willing to make a deal with the devil. And if Snyder is hellbent on sticking with RG3, something like that might need to happen. It is hard to say how much of a future he and Gruden have together. They could work things out, but it easily could stay an awkward relationship. You must have the coach and QB on the same page and getting along.
There is a notion that Kelly can plug just anyone into his system and get results. That is wrong. His system combined with the Eagles personnel is what allows different QBs to have success. If the Raiders were coached by Kelly with their current players, the results would be ugly. Kelly’s coaching would give them some boost, but the man isn’t a magician. He needs talent.
One of the most interesting aspects to all of this is the question of what Kelly wants in a QB. Kelly has coached Michael Vick, Nick Foles, Matt Barkley, GJ Kinne and Mark Sanchez in the NFL. He’s gotten a look at different levels of talent, athleticism, experience and so on. Kelly might have adjusted his thoughts on what he is looking for in a QB. Does Kelly now see the need for a really strong arm? Does he want someone who has superb deep accuracy? Does he want a veteran pocket passer? And so on and so on.
The other interesting angle is that the Eagles could have a shot at some guys they initially passed on in the draft. Geno Smith could be available after this year. EJ Manuel too. Would Kelly change his mind on them if the cost was a mid-to-late round pick? Clearly they’ve struggled or they wouldn’t be available, but you never know if Kelly could see something in them that made him want to coach them now. There are other backups around the league that Kelly could like.
As I mentioned in the piece, this isn’t a strong QB class in the upcoming draft. One guy the Eagles could get is UCLA’s Brett Hundley. He is incredibly talented, but also flawed. You wonder if he could be a player Kelly might be intrigued by.
For better or worse, it feels like there is a good chance Foles will be the guy next year as well.
* * * * *
My apologies to the GJ Kinne crowd. I know I’m supposed to talk him up as a deep sleeper ready to shock the world and go all Kurt Warner on the NFL, but I haven’t started drinking yet and I clearly can’t write something like that while sober.
* * * *
In the piece I mentioned some veteran QBs the Eagles could target. I’m not pushing for the team to go after Jay Cutler or Christian Ponder, but felt I had to mention them simply for the fact they are veteran starters who Kelly could like for one reason or another. I never expected him to draft Matt Barkley or sign Mark Sanchez so I’m learning to cast a wide net when talking about Kelly and QBs.
_
I’d love to read what drunk Tommy has to write about the QB situation…
Still 10 times better than what any Niner or Panther fan has to say on the subject.
It would probably involve Logan Thomas, Landry Jones and Matt McGloin
Megan Fox in a funions uniform making all the correct reads and giving Tommy credit in the post-game presser.
I think she might look better wearing a pudding uniform. : )
Just keep these read one and run scramble bums out of an Eagle uniform. We don’t need to be subjected to any more dead end garbage with these running guys.
It’ll be a very interesting roster going into year 3 of Kelly for sure.
I know most people hate Matt Barkley, and I’m not saying he’s any good, but I want to see how he looks next pre-season.
See last pre-season
Tommy,
Any thoughts on Sam Bradford if the Rams decide to move on with Winston/Mariota?
Bradford is overrated
But if he’d be a cheap guy off of the street to put in the mix for a year (like Sanchez this year), it couldn’t hurt.
And I don’t think he’s ever had a competent OC.
Agree with Mike below. He looks like a fairly inexpensive guy to bring in who has never had a good offense around him. Just can’t stay healthy, but as a backup should be perfectly fine.
If Sanchez leaves he’s a guy I would target for the backup job next year.
Greg Cossell, on Ross Tucker’s Sirius NFL show the other day, stated that there are no QBs in this draft worth a top 5 pick.
The current trend of the NFL of SB Champions are this.
Slightly Above Average QBs + Great Defense – Seattle, Tampa, Baltimore|
Elite QB play – Rodgers, Brees, P. Manning, Brady, Roth
Lucky QB play that happens to play great for 4 straight games – E. Manning (no way the QB who leads the league in Ints wins 2 SBs that)
If we aren’t going to get an ELITE QB we better get a Great Defense! Or Wish on a star that our QB plays out of their mind in the playoffs
Not sure the great defense argument is still valid after the rule changes of 2003 (emphasis of illegal contact) and 2012 (defenseless receiver).
Tough to play great D anymore.
Baltimore might become a trivia question answer then.
You’ll always have variations in performance – so amend to: Great “relative to the league” D.
Detroit held GB to 7 points, Arizon held Detroit to 6 points, St. Louis held Denver to 7 points. We held the Giants to 0 points after they were on an offensive hot streak.
Defense is still alive, and although the secondary has it tougher, the front 7 does not. With the focus on pass rushing specialist from DE to OLB’s guys who normally would be TE’ (or even Receivers) are now bulking up and becoming Defensive players. So the front 7s are stronger, faster and more athletic than before.
Secondaries are weaker, but front 7s are better
I would put Eli/Giants first Superbowl in the great Defense/above average QB category. 2nd one was the anomaly when Eli played the best of his career.
Helmet catch.
Interesting theory.
#JakeLocker2015
That dude would need a ton of work……….. and some HGH to heal up more quickly from being perpetually injured.
Havent thought at all about Cutler. Numerous reports state this is probably going to be his last year in the Windy City. Out of all the QBs listed he is the most talented, polished and so far successful out of the group. He obviously needs work, however this far into his carreer what we have seen may be the best he can be. He would be an upgrade over Sanchez and Foles, however he wpuld command big bucks. Still generally young for a QB, but also a turnover machine at times. Wonder if that would change under Chip. If the price is right that very may well be the best option out there if it is possible. What do you guys think?
Cutler, if cut from Chicago, could be had on a one year “prove-it” type deal.
I think if we were to sign him it would have to.be a multi year contract. To many truely QB desperate teams out there that would be willing to overspend on him. However we might be the best option for his succes.
That is going to be a really interesting concept moving forward. Do guys more want to sign here for a chance to play for Kelly’s team?
Im not saying it just because Kelly, but also because if you look at alot of these teams that really need a QB our talent level across the board is alot higher.
I agree with the first part, bit I’m not sure Cutler would take well to being put into a QB competition. He’s talented enough to be signed as a starter somewhere.
If he were to be signed Chip would probably call it a competition but the reality is there really wouldnt be one. If he were to be signed Sanchez wouldnt be here. Cutler is better then Foles (yes he does do dumb stuff). Also if we were to sign him it would cost major dough and you dont spend major dough for someone to come in an be a backup. If he ended up wearing the green it would to be as a starter nothing else. He isnt someone like Kyle Orton that you bring in to compete with other QB’s hoping that one nudges the other out. With Cutler it would be a full commitment. The question is, are you willing to commit. Failure would be very costly to this franchise. Success could take us to that next level. We have enough weapons on O that we dont need Arod type play to be dominant on that side of the ball.
And I think Cutler struggles with the intellect aspect of football. I have a feeling Kelly might kill him in a meeting room.
Im not sure if he struggles with the intellectual part of it, such as reading defenses, or if its just the fact that he is a gunslinger that is very willing to take risks. Sort of like the way Farve was. I think a better pass pro offensive line may help him out alot.
Some of the places he chooses to sling that gun are quite dumb.
I dont dispute that at all, but on a few of those picks his oline is garbage in pass pro and the D was on him in a second, and he tried to make something happen. Again, thats just on a few of them. Alot of them there are NO excuses for. I just feel as though he is very talented, better then what we have, and somewhat young in QB years. Its possible that under a better system, bettet coaching, and behind a better line some of those mistakes may go away. Again its a MAYBE. You never know exactly what you have untill you have it. Another plus is that he has the ability to run the ball a bit unlike Foles.
Fewer INTs than Foles at the time Foles went out.
His risk taking and bad attitude make for a bad combination.
Those two would definitely butt heads. People think Nicky Flash is bad with turnovers? Woof, Cutler is worse.
This year at the point Foles went out i would say Foles was worse. The TOs are a concern yes. The question is….do you want to trade in one TO prone QB for another one which has more talent though. And if you do is the price worth it. You never know though, maybe Chip sees something where he thinks Cutler really might work out in his system.
I’m talking about Cutler for his entire career. He’s not someone you want starting for you. He isn’t a leader. Tough as shit but not a leader.
He isnt ideal. Not at all. But let me ask you this. Who do you think our offense would be more potent with, Cutler, Foles, or Sanchez? Im not saying Cutler would be a savior but i think he may be better then Foles, and definetly Sanchez.
Heres the problem though. Sanchez isnt the answer, Foles severly reggresed, your not in good enough position in the draft to draft a QB that you can say is going to be your franchise QB of the future. You dont want to give up years of first round picks to get in top 3. So you either say to yourself, im fine with how Foles is playing, or you have extreme faith he will be better next year, or you say we need any kind of upgrade we can get at QB to make us possibly a SB worthy team. The only real upgrade i can see that is possible if CHI decides to split with him is Cutler. Again its not ideal, sometimes all the options you have arent ideal, but i think he could possibly be the best upgrade possible. And yes, if we want to win a SB we do need an upgrade, unfortunetly.
He’s not an upgrade.
I respect your opinion, there are going to be some that think that, and there are going to be some that think he is. Im of the mindset that he is. Im not saying he is going to go Tom Brady, im not even saying he would be a huge upgrade, but i do think he could be a marginal upgrade.
And they just gave him that huge contract. They aren’t gonna cut him
No they wont just cut him, it would probably be a trade. Im not saying he is definetly going to be available. Im just saying there were reports it may be his last season in CHI, and if there is any truth to it, it may be worth the Eagles checking it out.
One of the worst ideas of I’ve ever read, tbh with you
Because our current QB’s are so good right?
What do you get when you mesh tremendous physical tools with a terrible mind? A horrible QB.
Like Geno? Thats a horrible QB. I wouldnt even put Geno in the same class as Cutler. Would you say Cutler is a better QB then Sanchez? I would. If Foles were to come back and play the same as earlier in the year then I would venture to say Cutler may be better then him. I never said Cutler was great. I said he may be better then what we have. Since you know what is a horrible idea or not, what would you do to try and upgrade the QB situation if Sanchez and Foles continue their level of play? An upgrade is needed if it continues. There is NO ideal answer here, so what is yours?
To add to my previous statement Cutlers intelligence has never been in question. He can read defences. Its his risk taking. Judging by the comment you made you base turnovers on intelligence. Was Farve an unintelligent QB? No, he was a risktaker and a gungslinger. Also, going by your logic Foles was a very intelligent QB last year, and a dumb QB this year. Does that sound right? Cutler takes risks, way way to many, and yes sometimes stupid risks, however that does not mean he is an unintelligent QB. What was unintelligent and very assumptious was your comment.
Any chance Jameis Winston falls far enough because of character concerns for the Eagles to trade up for him?
Does that make up for having character and talent concerns?
Talent concerns? Like Kelvin Benjamin?
The guy leading the league in drops? That Kelvin Benjamin?
TO had drops too but he still put up stupid production because he was big and fast. Dude;s a rookie and lives up to his draft status right now.
I think you can admit that there is a major difference between character concerns of a WR and that of a QB who you want to lead and be the face of your franchise in a few years. Look what happened wit Djax and his character concerns. You really think Chip will take Winston?
Great guy to add to a team.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/11/22/jameis-winston-not-ejected-despite-contact-with-official/
Really classy guy.
Less than Cary Williams did in the Super Bowl
I think Winston will bust. He could have a couple of good games but the team that drafts him in the first two rounds will wish they didn’t. You can get away with certain things on the field, and a level of preparation, in college that you can’t in the pros. His ‘character concerns’ speak not just to his ethics but to whether he has anything near the intelligence to run a pro offense.
Bingo!
Not so much intelligence, as mindset. Kelly values a professional attitude and the culture it breeds. Seems like Winston is the antithesis of this. Closer to DJax than to Celek.
Yikes, I wouldn’t want a crab-leg stealing rapist on my team!
I doubt he falls all the way to a UDFA. Which is about the point where I could overlook his shortcomings.
What about Braxton Miller? He has the injury concerns to drop all the way down late day 2.
I still see Braxton as more of an ATH than a QB. If he wants to transition to that position, then he should stay at OSU. If he wants to play QB, then he absolutely needs to transfer to some other D1 program that needs a QB. Go to LSU, or Arkansas, Wisconsin or some program where he could be the man right away and still have some talent around him.
Personally I take Brandon Bridge somewhere on day 2 and sit him for a year behind Foles. Kid has really high ceiling.
If he were to fall for that reason he would continue to fall past the Eagles. Exact opposite of a Chip player, esspecially when you are talking QB.
EJ Manuel, Geno Smith, Ponder – all busts you don’t want. The QBs on the roster are better.
RG3 is a question mark but it’s unlikely he’ll be available to miraculously learn how to go through his progressions.
Mariota may just fall. Happens.
I wish, but highly doubt it. To good of a QB in a draft class that isnt full of good QB prospects.
If RG3-and-out comes to the Eagles I don’t know if I can keep watching. Would be worse than watching Mike Vick.
It would be significantly worse because Vick came here hungry, humble, and appreciative of the opportunity he was given to play again. In spite of my dislike of how Vick plays QB, I found his attitude to be great.
RGKnee hasn’t humbled himself well enough yet……………and he sucks at quarterbacking.
Highly doubt RG3 ever wears green. Kelly himself said durability is huge in a player. Also, i.dont think he would want the media circus or distraction he would cause. Not to mention the fact i.just dont think he is really that good at all.
Maybe I’m in the minority here but I would love to see game previews on igglesblitz again.
This is still a great article, but what happened to ‘Know your Enemy’, Tommy?
Time. I have a new job this year and it eats up more time than I’m used to. Game reviews and previews are time consuming because of the amount of research. Some articles can be written quicker than others.
My weeks used to have a good flow to them. Not this year. And it is driving me crazy.
No worries, mate.
Hope you’re enjoying your new job. Quick question: what’s your score for Eagles vs Titans tomorrow?
I think I speak for a lot of your readers, Tommy, when I say we enjoy whatever you have the time to write, and, in addition, the followers here always post interesting comments, so the community is invaluable as well. Don’t let your job drive you crazy–I’m sure it helps put food on your table and pudding in your fridge.
Yeah, Tommy, thanks so much for giving what time you have. Also, I feel your writing style has even improved to a new level recently. Your “Winning” article was very well-written (even though I mostly disagree 🙂
Do what you gotta’ do, Tommy. I echo phillychuck, we’re grateful you share your knowledge with us and have created a blog where intelligent discussion reigns.
If the Skins stick with RGIII, maybe the Eagles go for Colt McCoy
Foles >>> McCoy
McCoy is a backup. A bad backup.
I want Eric Kendricks.
Recently gathered an int against USC.
Welcome to the fan club. GEAGLE is the president.
Sick one handed INT…. “I’m not just the president, but I’m also a client” lol hair club for men add
And what are you? CFO?
I’m not so sure that Geno Smith will be available. Jets will be bringing in a new coach who may want to hold on to Smith just to evaluate him. I don’t think he is good at all, but a coach may think they can rehabilitate Smith.
E.J. Manuel is interesting, but feel like teams want to hold on to QBs a little longer just in case there is a chance they can put it all together.
In addition to the bottom feeders looking for QBs, even for the Cowboys, QB will highly likely be a top priority. Wouldn’t shock me if Romo retires in the offseason. I could see Jerruh going hard after Jay Cutler or trading 3 years worth of draft picks to get Mariota.
In fact the only currently starting QB in the NFCE I have confidence in starting a year from now is Eli.
Jerry could trade for johny football….
That is his style.
It’s very possible that the Giants pick a QB and Eli is riding the bench by November.
Cutler and AP on the Cowboys would be so right, wouldn’t it?
I’d be interested to know what makes anybody think that RGIII is a legitimate long -erm QB. Hell, he’s not even a short-term solution for DC, let alone a long-term solution.
Draft position. Poor knowledge of the QB position. Subway ads.
Good one!
Okay, playing reverse devil’s advocate, Chip Kelly’s known for his read-option offense and RGIII has the perfect physical abilities to run such an offense. As far as “long-term”, that indeed would require optimism, since neither RGIII nor Kelly’s offense has had sustained success in the NFL.
They don’t call him “Nicky Franchise” for nothing. Foles is long term QB, period…not that I care to debate it hours away from must win game against the Titans but I digress
Heh, the quickshot before reading further comments:
Remember, RGIII was a vastly more talented prospect than Marcus Mariota. The essential issue with Mariota is going to be how well he’ll read the field after coming off an even more exotic offense. For all that people talk about Mariota’s athleticism, he looks to have about Manziel’s speed, but is bigger for all of that. Know he’s been timed in high school at 4.48, but that’s not going to be his number as a grown man with bulk. So he’s not *that* fast, certainly not as fast as Jake Locker. Mind you, straight line speed isn’t everything. Geno Smith was 4.59/40, but he’s not anywhere near as fast as Kaepernick at 4.53, and he looks less of a runner than guys like Cam Newton or Jake Locker, who has roughly the same time. People who are genuinely in the 4.4s or better at the QB position look very different from people who are in the 4.6s. Ultimately, out of the QB position, even as a passer, what you want is agility. Joe Webb’s 4.4 speed is a much more significant factor than RGIII’s 4.4 speed, because Webb is essentially the most agile of the really fast QBs, comparable to Newton or Luck. As we’ve seen, he can juke people, etc, for someone playing QB and not RB, WR, etc.
The Art Briles offense at Baylor is more simplistic than the Oregon O. At the very least they would fall into similar non traditional offensive attacks. Saying RGIII was more advanced in his ability to read the field due ot his college offense is bull.
And yes, I think trying out Webb and seeing if he can actually pass reliably and learn an offense is a very cheap gamble.
As for other QBs:
Sam Bradford? No, injury prone, little moxie, and poor deep ball thrower.
RGIII will not be available. I know that there’s a lot of heck thrown at him, but Gruden is probably in deeper trouble. The dude hasn’t been in the offense long enough. Were he to be available, I’d say yes, but I’m not sure he’d be a great fit. RGIII doesn’t really have the wiggle and quickness I’d prefer.
Cam Newton will not be available. Newton would almost certainly destroy the rest of the league in an offense like this. He’d make eminent sense, but I think, despite how some Carolina fans might feel, the org remembers what it’s like to not have a real QB, and they will not roll with a rookie or Derek Freakin’ Anderson.
Johnny Manziel will not be available, and even if he were, my view of him in the preseason is that he is very raw, and worse, needs every mechanical form to go right to make good throws at league level. He does have the wiggle needed, as a rusher.
Geno Smith will not be available. Cheap to keep him, and I think much of the problem was just how overwhelmed he was in a bad situation. If the Jets get one of the two biggies, then he might become available if Vick moves on to greener pastures. He has the wiggle and is a reasonable rusher. Can be decent at deep throws, and makes a number of other throws. Like Luck, tends to really want a play to succeed and try to make throws his arm can’t cash. Less refinement and less talented offense means that Smith is in trouble more often.
Mike Vick probably can be had, but he will not want to come back. Issue with age. Watching Brees, Brady, Manning be all oldster makes me appreciate the practical ceiling issue with tolerating good, but old QBs.
Jake Locker is made of glass. Horribly inaccurate for any sort of challenging pass. Throw in Blaine Gabbert:coward.
Tannehill will not be available, but he, like EJ Manuel, has an overt lack of moxie. He’s winning games right now, but he’s really not prone to making plays. Just not as prone as Manuel to being inaccurate on top of the moxie issue. Neither player has much wiggle.
Pryor has to to have every go right to drive a ball, like Manziel, and he apparently is slow to read the field. BJ Daniels is too small.
Tarvaris Jackson is made of glass, and has little wiggle.
Ponder is basically like Pryor in the sense that he has zero natural QB ability. Needs to be perfect in order to do basic throws, and cannot see the field, or pressure, and certainly cannot accurately throw deep properly. Good rusher.
Honestly guys? I think we’re stuck with Sanchez. I thought there was a decent chance Webb would be here the last offseason, and I think there is still a decent chance next offseason. Just makes far too much sense, in the cheap for the quality sense.
Yeah, he’s making less than 900k this year so it’s not a giant investment.
Forgot about Cutler. Again, I don’t think that guy will be available. I suppose there are synergies to how the Bears did things in Lovie’s day, but I’m not sure I can imagine Cutler in this offense.
I am continually amused with the hate for Winston. We will not get a chance to draft him to even hate, guys. College Football has been making a lot of money off of people watching and hoping to see him fail. The NFL will do the same.
i can’t help it but every time I see Winston’s face the words ‘see you next Tuesday’ come to mind.
If we get Jay Cutler I would lose all faith in chip and be looking forward to our next coach.
You have nothing to worry about
I suspect that the strategy will be three fold:
1. They’ll keep Foles and see what improvement they get
2. Sign a veteran – I’d guess a reclamation project, Bradford or Locker would seem the most likely if they are available, could just be Sanchez.
3. Draft someone in the 2nd/3rd round who needs some work – Bryce Petty, Shane Carden, Brett Hundley, Garrett Grayson.
They’ll then compete in camp, Foles probably wins out to start the season.
I still like the guys we have on board. Foles can be decent and there is no need to rush for big contract next year. Still we dont know what we have in Barkley. Also if Sanchez wants to sign for 2 more years, we can wait until 2016 to make the decison and spend time and money to tweaking current roster to SB calliber. Or maybe, Mariota will fall down like Johnny last year and world will be perfect :))
In terms of ability, Jake Locker is my favorite to come in. Sadly he is just too injury prone.
A few smoothies (maybe with some HGH snuck in them) will get him healed up and healthy in no time flat. He would be an interesting guy to see in the mix during the off-season. He’d be cheap and interesting.
I know many people is down on Hundley because of his stretch in the middle of the season where he wasnt very good, but after he stopped trying to be something he isnt (a pocket passer). He has improved his game a lot.
Hundley will most likely never be a pocket passer, but if you put him in an offense like Kelly’s with lots of run/pass option and plenty play action and the option to keep it, I think he can be very dangerous.
Dangerous to our level of success.
“never be a pocket passer” is something I never want to hear about a guy quarterbacking my team. Greg Cosell has some great stuff on why that type of football is a dead end.
Meant to write pocket passer in the mold of the great once.
I do think he can become at least as good as Cam Newton was before this season or Michael Vick is now.
I don’t consider that good enough either to be honest. I think he could be molded into a better thrower and reader from the pocket if we drafted him, but sat him for a year.
I wish teams would bring back the old apprenticeship approach to bringing along QBs the right way. Kelly strikes me as a guy who could do that.
Seems to me that so far, passing from the pocket has been a fairly big part of Kelly’s pro offense, even when Vick was QB.
Exactly. Kelly’s comments about consistent accurate passing are the most telling thing he’s ever said about QB play.
Hundley is super accurate tho, he just struggle with recognizing things fast enough
That’s not good at all. Everything is faster in the NFL.
Cant we say that for every position? Some adapt and learn, others keep having some problems
True enough. That is why throwing QBs who lack that skill in college in there game one is stupid.
If you de-scramble the guy’s mentality by having him ride pine and learn for a year, you’d get a much better QB in the long run.
That is what I want with any QBs we might draft not named Mariota
I’d sit Mariota for a year as well. I just see every career that starts out running ending in the same slow decline due to injuries and underdeveloped skills as Vick’s.
I wouldve liked to wait til offseason to make this comment, but We can’t rule out a miracle trade-up in next years draft for Kelly to get Mariota. It seems a little far fetched.. But I think it’s something Chip would do for his old QB.
I’m sure this fan base would love to see that happen.. I personally don’t know what it’ll take to move up so high (picks and players, obviously), but it cannot be ruled out completely. Let’s see what happens.
No thank you. Too many picks needed to get him, he’s not Andrew Luck in terms of being ready day 1, and Greg Cosell just stated that he’s not a top 5 talent as is.
I agree in that it would take too many picks.. As much as I’d hate to see any of our players traded, anything can happen.