Lots of QB Talk
Posted: November 6th, 2014 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 190 Comments »Nick Foles is out and Mark Sanchez is in. This was done due to injury, but was Chip Kelly considering the move before the injury? He said at today’s press conference that was not the case at all. Chip was pretty emphatic that he supported Foles and had no intention of benching him.
Was Chip telling the truth?
We’ll never know, but I tend to believe him. While Chip hates turnovers and Foles play had to be driving him nuts, benching a QB is a pretty drastic move. It can seriously affect the relationship between player and coach for a long time. I don’t think Donovan McNabb ever got over Andy Reid benching him for half a game (vs Baltimore) in 2008. Foles might be in his third season, but he’s only got 24 career starts. He is still a young player with a lot to learn. I think you are better letting the young guy try to play his way through the mistakes. The offense was scoring points. The team was winning. And Foles is a high character guy that has the support of his teammates.
It was interesting how emphatic Chip was about the situation. Was he trying to be protective of his young player? Does Chip just hate reports like that. They come out and can get the media and fans all riled up, even if they aren’t true.
There is a lot of excitement over Mark Sanchez right now, but not everyone is buying in. Adam Schein wrote a tough piece on Sanchez for NFL.com.
But let’s curb this misguided narrative about Sanchez. Stop turning him into some kind of sympathetic figure who was wronged in the Big Apple and, inherently, is now poised to become a long-term answer in Philly.
Here’s the truth: Mark Sanchez‘s worst enemy in New York was Mark Sanchez.
Oh, sure, there were obstacles. I’ve repeatedly expressed my feelings on Rex Ryan in this space. He’s a fine defensive mind, but not a head coach. Offense certainly isn’t his forte, and he just can’t figure out the quarterback position. Rex gave Brian Schottenheimer and Tony Sparano, the two coordinators during Sanchez’s starting days with Gang Green, autonomous control of the offense — and both bombed. Yes, the Jets did trade for Tim Tebow, which turned out to be an absolute nightmare. And no, the Jets didn’t provide the most talented supporting cast.
But don’t look past the real issue: Sanchez has a knack for turning the ball over.
The former No. 5 overall pick would look the part for stretches in New York, making nice throws to Jerricho Cotchery,Santonio Holmes and Dustin Keller that would inspire the Jetsand their fans. And then he would collapse. Sanchez never developed a true feel for the moment, never refined his decision-making to the degree necessary for a successful NFL quarterback. Sanchez threw more picks than touchdowns with the Jets. He racked up 52 turnovers over his final two seasons as the team’s starter.Fifty-two. And he didn’t exactly light up the score sheet elsewhere. Over four years as the Jets‘ starter, Sanchez completed 55.1 percent of his passes. Point of reference: Geno Smith, who was just benched in New York, owned a 56.2 percent clip in 2014. Oh, and Sanchez’s yards-per-attempt average dropped every single season. That’s not good. That’s not a function of Rex Ryan or the New York media. That’s on Sanchez.
There is a lot of truth in what Schein has to say. Sanchez was a flawed player in New York. Part of that was on his supporting cast. Part was on his coaches. But a lot of that was on Sanchez as well.
The problem is that Schein acts as if that’s a done deal. QBs can be greatly affected by circumstances. Remember how poorly Kurt Warner played for the Giants? We all thought he was done. Then he went to Arizona and thrived in that offense and led them to a Super Bowl. Steve Young was awful for Tampa before going to SF and becoming a HOF player. Drew Brees was mediocre until his third year. He played well that season. But he didn’t become HOF Drew Brees until he got to the Saints and started playing for Sean Payton.
Sanchez may very well prove to be average or slightly above average. The more the plays, the more his bad habits and flaws may come out. This is all possible. But the counter to that is also possible. Sanchez may thrive for the Eagles. Sanchez didn’t always “get it” when he was with the Jets. He didn’t understand the price you have to pay to be an elite QB. He didn’t have the same kind of relentless drive that Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Drew Brees do.
Why can’t Sanchez learn from that? He failed in New York. That’s humbling. Sanchez sat on the sidelines for all of 2013 and watched Geno Smith have an erratic rookie year. That had to have some impact on him. Do we really think Chip would have signed Sanchez if he didn’t see the right mindset from him? When Sanchez sits in a room with Chip, Pat Shurmur and Bill Musgrave, that is unlike anything he experienced with the Jets. Playing for established veteran offensive coaches like that has to bring out the best in you.
The media asked Chip about how he could overlook the turnover issues that Sanchez had with the Jets. Chip answered that he didn’t know what was happening on those plays so he wasn’t focused on the results. Chip was more interested in the raw talent that he saw on film. He liked what he saw and felt Sanchez could help the Eagles out. Chip isn’t going to choose a backup QB lightly. He knows the importance of that position. You can bet that Chip had loftier expectations when he signed Sanchez than any of us did.
Sanchez told a good story in his PC. He talked about a play in Sunday’s game where JJ Watt got to him quickly. Sanchez said that in his Jets days he might have tried to make something happen and that he easily could have lost the ball or turned it over. Against Houston, Sanchez just went down. He didn’t want to risk the turnover since the Eagles were already in FG range. That is excellent situational awareness and helped the Eagles to get 3 points up on the board.
Sanchez was the golden boy when he got to New York. He came to Philadelphia as the butt fumble guy. That kind of a dramatic change has to affect someone. So far it seems like the changes are all good for Sanchez and the Eagles.
_
The people who “like” Sanchez hated Foles, anyway.
We will see Foles again.
Nah. I like both of ’em.
Same here…Kelly played against both in college,saw how good they were then, and is now very happy to have them on his team.
Since Chip did such a good job with Foles last season,am anxios to see what he can do with Sanchez.
I’m with you. Like em both. Don’t love either yet. I haven’t loved a QB since pre McNabb ACL. Except for Garcia, but that doesn’t count.
I think you’re wrong on that one. By a lot. This isn’t Vick vs. Foles here. This is a starter going down and a back up coming in. Why would people who like Sanchez hate Foles? Foles haters will always hate Foles – doesn’t matter who the back up is. I’m a full Foles supporter and I’m excited to see what Sanchez can/can’t do.
FOles is the truth… Tons of people jumping off the kids bandwagon because they can’t stomach the ups and downs of young player development are going to look mighty foolish.. Tho they are probably the same people that thought u needed a certain 40 time to play QB, so looking foolish is something they are pretty used too 😉
…
With that said, nothing to do but full steam ahead with the SANCHIZE!!!!
Look foolish? Like you look foolish every time you make one of your stupid posts?
FACTS
1. Nick Foles career as an Philadelphia Eagle is over
2. Nick Foles (not “FOles”, you frickin’ dumbass), isn’t very good
3. You will just ignore being incredibly wrong and continue to act like you are smart and know football when in fact you probably have an IQ of 90 and know nothing about anything, most of all football
4. The are the worst poster in the history of the internet
Shut up and never post again you worthless piece of crap
Thx for visiting now get back to Bleacher report
1. Nick Foles career as an Philadelphia Eagle is over
please ,oh wise one, what will the lottery numbers be on the next drawing
what were your predictions for Sanchez`s future two seasons ago… clearly you saw Chip leaving Oregon(twice), using Vick only so Foles could come in, have a historic run to finish the season, with a great O-line,yet knowing the rookie would caught juicing with a couple more going down due to injury, so that Foles would get pounded playing behind a make-shift line, all the while still leading a weakened team to a 5-2 record, and getting injured so that Sanchez could come and lead the Eagles to the SB.
Nick Foles is done. I know it, you know, Chip knows it. The guy gets hurt just thinking about playing football. He was injured his senior year of college and now his first 3 seasons in the NFL. 2 things can happen now, either Sanchez plays well enough to take the Eagles to the playoffs in which case he is the guy again next season or the Eagles miss the playoffs in which case the Eagles will bring in a new QB next year. No matter what, Foles is finished as a starter in the NFL.
What I,you, and Chip know is that tomorrow is an unknown,and that your predictions are as worthless as every other person`s. If, and when, you tell me the winning number for next week`s lottery,then I`ll believe you.
until then, opinions are only that, opinions, and you`re welcome to yours.
me, I`m just gonna watch, then I`ll find out…just like you
winning numbers to next week’s PA state lotto: 45 89 44 36 09.
Someone help me out here but wasn’t it on the foles pick six play where there was a blatant hands to the face on Herremans where his helmet ended up on the ground. I haven’t seen or heard much talk about it but I know it happened at some point and it would have been a big call if it wasnt missed.
Guess I should have done a little more research. So it turns out it was actually on the play where foles gets hurt and the hands to the face was against Tobin. Either way it was a big no call and another lousy job by the officials. It wouldnt have stopped the play so it’s not like it could have changed the outcome of foles getting hurt but it still pisses me off.
Depends on the officiating crew. One crew, as we saw in Arizona, can’t keep their flags in their pocket. Other crews can never find the flag.
Its a tough job. Playing in nationally ranked 8 man flag now, I have come to really respect NFL referees. Who knew just spotting the ball was such a monumental task.
Several of those were missed when done to us last week. I counted two. In addition to the play you pointed out, Tobin’s helmet got smashed off of his head as well. But no call.
I think Sanchez will succeed. And I think that will say less about Mark Sanchez than it will say about Chip Kelly.
It will say more about the importance of the oline, and specifically the all-pro caliber center. After that, it will say something about how bad these upcoming defenses are. After that, it will say something about Kelly and Sanchez.
When Sanchez had weapons in NY they went to the AFC Championship twice. Once those left we saw the last 3 years of Sanchez.
I think tonight I’m gonna end up having a nightmare about Sanchez performing like Andy Dalton did tonight. Yeesh that was brutal.
I was amazed to see the stats. I couldn’t keep watching the game because it was just pretty low quality–Hoyer is trash, but I must have seen a fifth of the completions Andy Dalton had when I had it on and was watching…I didn’t see all the interceptions, etc…
Hoyer actually looked pretty solid most of the night.
solid doesn’t mean *good*. He wasn’t missing any throws or anything like that, but there was very little joie de vivre that I can slurp up from watching him. No great throws, no pull kitten out of a top-hat. Just picking apart a really bad defensive performance.
So you mean he was just doing his job as a QB without putting his team in a position to lose with dumb turnovers caused by scrambling tendencies?
In the delightfully wacky shah8 world, what you described is the top performance of an untalented quarterback.
I think there’s a difference between actual performance and watch-ability, which is what shah is getting at. Keeping up with the Kardashians gets just as good of ratings as Breaking Bad did, but I think we’d all much rather be watching Breaking Bad.
Yeah, Kaeperdashian style QB play is terrible football that needs to be gone from the league much like reality shows need to be gone from TV.
Sadly, one of the things missing in reality shows is reality.
Dalton’s 30 percent completion percentage is the worst for a quarterback
with at least 30 attempts since Stan Gelbaugh went 9 of 31 for 66 yards
for the Seattle Seahawks against the Philadelphia Eagles on Dec. 13,
1992.
Was shocked by Drew Bree’s numbers… With Jimmy Graham he is an elite QBs… When he doesn’t have Jimmy his QBR is on par with Geno smith
Kurt Warner had a bad thumb in NY.
Anyways, nah…I don’t think Kelly ever had much enthusiasm for Foles, despite Tim McManus believing in Vick’s use of voodoo curses and love potion #9s.
Sanchez? I’m not enthusiastic about him–he’s a knucklehead who doesn’t do well in stressful situations. He can run the offense smoother than Foles (because he’s a much better passer), I believe, but he is no more likely to make plays than Foles. About the same ceiling for different reasons (discovered after draft), more efficient, and just as capable of low quality play.
*sigh*
Alright, look. Despite all of the pundits online who’ll tell you this and that and the other about QB play, what you need to remember is that the numbers don’t really mean much. The individual techniques do not genuinely mean very much. They’re just ways to pump up and polish some analyst’s perspective with veracity-seeming details. It’s ultimately about whether that QB can make plays, and whether the QB can run the offense well enough to enjoy the fact that he can make plays. Cian Fahey can print as many articles about how Kaepernick sucks in the pocket and can’t read defense as much as he likes. Kaepernick can make plays, and when you’re thinking of winning playoff games, you have to have a QB that can rocket or place unbeatable passes, well more than the pace of one or two a game. Kaepernick also runs the offense well enough, along with a good defense to utilize the fact that he makes plays. He will always be better than the more stat accumulating guys like Andy Dalton, and very easily arguably better than Andrew Luck, even though he will never had the yards or TDs. That will be because Kaepernick can make plays Andrew Luck will never be able to match, and it will matter against any serious, playoff caliber defense. A QB is someone who runs fast, jumps high, and throw far. He is not a golfer with tight technique, nor is he a pokémon master dealing Megatron cards, no matter how much the ad men hawk how dreeeeaaamy those determined eyes are. You don’t want Jake Locker, but Matt Schaub or Andy Dalton will rarely, if *ever*, see postseason success during their careers. They don’t have the talent needed. You must be Matt Ryan or higher to win, guys.
That was always why Kelly never really wanted to move on from Vick, until the hate just got too real. Vick would not ever have gotten the numbers Foles did–but he probably would have won most of the games, if not all, and he would not have lost that game against the Saints, given the same playout, with turnovers and everything else. This is why Mark Sanchez is on the team. Be serious now, Sanchez would never had come here if he didn’t think he could win that starting job back…meaning that he had some sort of verbal understanding. The likes of Howie Roseman would never had gotten Sanchez if he (and Kelly) was confident in Foles–he would have gotten Orton, or Hasselbeck, or some other oldie to minister experience to a young hotshot.
And you can understand why, because the issues were *always* there. 5.05s 40 or worse is disqualifying speed. Automatically disqualifying speed for any starter QB, for the heavy footed reasons you just saw this year. If the ten yard split was really good, or the shuttle, then fine, but… Then there was the fact that he had clear gaps in passing ability, such that a number of routes that a QB has to be able to throw, he can’t handle easily. You can’t cover that up, indefinitely. And you just don’t overlook this stuff–it’s basic! If you’re an old QB–well, by the time you’re five years in and know what you’re doing, you’re already about to decline athletically. If you’re a QB without a good arm, well, it’s really just tough luck, no matter how well you can place the ball. You have to be able to make the throws–NFL is from good arm to cannon. Not limp wrist to cannon. If you’re a QB that never rises to the occasion in college (at least to the caliber of athlete you are), like EJ Manuel or Blaine Gabbert, that is a big signal no one should trust you to rise in the NFL. Most of the real precision work that you see a QB do, that people are always yammering about–these things are products of *veteranhood*. You shouldn’t expect Andrew Luck to manipulate the pocket, well, and well…he doesn’t manipulate the pocket that well, as you’d expect from Brady or Peyton Manning. At the same time, most of these veterans are pretty far over the hill–Brees, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, such that they all are pretty much at risk of flopping before a postseason defense. Virtually all senior citizens do, aside from Elway riding in on Terrelle Davis’ jock. That’s because a QB runs fast, jumps high, and throw far.
TL/DR version: Foles isn’t good because he doesn’t have talent, neither does Sanchez, arm strength, fast 40 time, blah, blah, blah.
We’ve all heard your theories on this a million times. And your support for them remains as impervious to evidence as ever. Tom Brady probably couldn’t run 40 feet in 5.05 seconds these days, much less 40 yards. And last I checked he’s still a pretty effective quarterback.
Oooooh, but there is an easy answer to that.
Has Tom Brady *ever* been so graceless when moving his feet as Nick Foles has been? Does he not have legit tape of him being a successful short yardage runner, including a juke or two?
I was always right, xeynon. I was always going to be right, because the arguments were effectively about fundamentals, the real ones. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning always were legit athletes on the field, with enough arm, legs, eyes, coordination, instincts, etc to play. All those trait matter, because this is not golf, and the defense is not a golfing course with moving holes where the WRs are.
Correction: you are always right because when reality contradicts your beliefs, you redefine reality to fit your beliefs rather than the other way around. Being a phenomenal athlete is not necessary to be a successful quarterback. Nor is even really being an average one.
Whether there is tape of Brady as a young player running successfully is irrelevant. The Brady of today is still playing football very well. He also moves around about as well as my grandfather, who’s been dead for 20 years. QED.
project, much?
That’s rich.
Insofar as we’re talking about Foles, my attitude last season was “he’s been great this season but has to maintain it over the long term to be the guy, and there are still things he must work on”. My attitude this season has been “he’s made some great plays but way too many poor throws and bad decisions; if he can’t clean those up he won’t be the guy”. I’d say both assessments are pretty realistic.
As far as quarterbacking in general goes, I’m willing to admit that Brady, Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, etc. have had a fair amount of success as NFL players despite being less than stellar athletes. So I think, yeah, I have a more realistic view there as well.
There’s no point in debating shah. He only argues in vague subjective terms, that are fluid and ever changing to fit his narrative.
I’ve always given you points to contest, though. Be nice if you could engage, no?
But then again, people like you and xeynon want actors or golfers to be our QB. And I am not down with Napoleon Freakin’ Dynamite to be my QB. It is not, in fact, normal to have a 230lb QB rush 30 yards for a TD in such a way that we all feel like it’s a fat boy 290-310lb’er TD that time against Tampa in ’12.
I write those long ass responses on the faint hope that I can dampen the utterly disruptive love of backup QBs with feet of clay. There are reasons we have the highest win percentage without winning anything, and deliberately playing backup-caliber qb when you don’t have to, often, is one of them.
Haven’t read a shah post in two years
hahahahaha — you’re not the only one…
Lol seriously, I literally don’t read them. You see me get into arguments with everyone…but notice how you never see me get into arguments with him, and he is like King fool… If I read what he writes, Id probably fight with him every day…
…
I’m amazed at how people still read it
I stand by my read that he’s a brilliant, Andy Kaufman-level troll. Noone can be proven so objectively wrong on so many statements and not relent except a troll.
One thing I’ve always appreciated about his posts are that he appreciates the eye test. So many people just regurgitate and parse out-of-context statistics and use them as a definitive measure. Its the same with baseball people who either love or hate SABR metrics. Stats are useful to help make a point or supplement a viewpoint in placed in the proper context, but at the end of the day you need to be able see the story behind the stats. No one does that anymore, especially on blogs and comments sections. I think that’s very much why we love reading Tommy’s writing, because he rarely uses statistics to make a point, and he provides informed, reasonable opinons. His DGR don’t lead with stat lines, they are observations, and when he does use stats, he backs them up with the context of the situation.
On the flipside, there’s the #stongtake (by definition, an opinion backed up purely by stubborness) people, whose opinion is god, and if you disagree, you’re a moron. There’s a complete inability to have a discourse. Stats provide a pushback against #strongtakers because stats are rooted in reality, unlike the opinions of #strongtakers. And hence, the ebb and flow of opinions vs. statistics. But anyways, my point is the fact that, while you may often, and almost 100% disagree with what he might have to say (speaking for myself, I usually disagree with his conclusions, but agree with his methodology in reaching them. Parsing his posts for that methodology is why I enjoy them so much), its much better to have someone like him commenting with his opinions than 45 comments of regurgitated stats and #strongtakes.
And as for Igglesblitz social commentary, I enjoy how Shah engages people who challenge his view, sometimes in a condescending manner (but at the same time people act very hostile towards him in the first place), instead of completely demeaning their opinions and resorting to the name-calling tactics I can only relate to 2nd grade recess. And the person or few people who do engage in that sort of behavior around here in every single thread get a pass from everyone, while Shah gets a 20 comment flame thread every time he makes a monthly post. Apparently thinly veiled condescension with fully formed thoughts and arguments is much worse than blatant name calling and #strongtakes.
The only problem is that there was a streak of approximately 3 straight shah posts last year where he offered strong opinions on Foles’s play (IIRC, one was about Foles’s yardage coming mostly on screen passes), which were almost immediately contradicted by actual stats (Foles at that point was top 5 in “air yards”). Didn’t even provide a speed bump for shah. Just kept on keeping on with his same opinions (seems like a “strongtake” to me, but I’ll admit I’ve never seen the term before). And those aren’t the only instances where his assertions based on his “eye test” have been completely negated by actual facts, just the most startling streak.
There is some value to “eye test.” I use it when I see Kaep consistently staring down his first read on play after play, or in Russel Wilson performing much better when he’s not asked to do too much through the air. Heck, it’s useful in evaluating Shady’s play where he danced in the hole instead of getting the 4 to 5 yards the defense was literally giving him in the SF game. But at certain points, it must yield to actual, verifiable facts, or else it is no more than a subjective bias confirmation effect. It’s the literal basis of science. For example, you either steadfastly believe in the “young earth,” or you acknowledge that verifiable facts contradict the conclusion.
The truth is that shah never once even acknowledged that his “eye test” opinions were completely contradicted by actual, verifiable facts. It’s up to everyone to draw their own conclusions from there.
Heh
No thanks on Kapernick, or that style of play.
Have you seen the Niners offense lately?
AFC Championship is a stressful situation, and he brought them back down 17 against the Steelers. He can be effective if he has weapons and coaching (as well as most other QBs).
wow the part about Vick I see as completely wrong.
Kind of halfway makes sense. In an oddball way.
I don’t think Kelly ever had much enthusiasm for Foles
you`re so far off base here you`re not even in the game.
Kelly played against Foles in college. Foles` much less talented team matched Oregon score for score until the very end. After the game Kelly said that it was like `what does it take to beat this guy.would love to have him on my team`
So I wouldn`t doubt it that being able to coach Foles as a pro was one of the reasons that Kelly took the coaching job in Philly.
Move along, gents, nothing to add here. Tommy has said everything that needs to be said. Great, great piece.
I tend to think Sanchez’s ceiling is mediocrity, but that is about what we were getting from Foles this year. I think he’ll be able to keep the team afloat just fine, but I don’t understand where the people who are talking about him like’s going to seize the starting job are coming from. If Foles had put up the 3 quarter line he did last Sunday (2 TDs, 2 picks, etc.) we would call it yet another inconsistent performance from a quarterback who’s not ready to take us to the promised land. Hopefully Foles uses his time off to study film, etc. and comes back ready to correct the mistakes that have dogged him this year before the playoffs.
People are holding off judging Sanchez’s stat line because he came in cold off the bench with no time practicing with the 1’s. Foles has been doing that week after week with no sign of improvement.
That is true, but Sanchez has a five year NFL track record of being significantly worse than Foles was this season. The Rex Ryan factor may partially explain that, but it has to be considered evidence against the proposition that he is a great NFL talent who hasn’t blossomed yet. Most likely, he’s a so-so NFL quarterback who was made to like slightly worse than he actually is by poor coaching.
Yeah, but like Tommy said, changing coaches/schemes can work wonders. It’s not something you can completely ignore, even if you don’t like the guy.
Either way, Sanchez looked great in the preseason (usual caveats apply, though he did play against the Steelers’ starters), and he was dynamite in the red zone on Sunday. I’m happy to withhold judgement until after we see him play with a full week of practice and gameplan catered to him.
If he’s slightly better in the red zone all other things the same I think it’s a huge point swing for us.
I also doubt we’re going to see many 40+ attempt games from him. Another point to remember, the upcoming defenses (until SEA) are all pretty poor, and he’ll have a significantly improved line.
If Sanchez isn’t significantly better than Foles has been under these improved circumstances, I think you have the answer regarding relative merit.
You know I never really understood the phrase “QB friendly scheme” until a few days ago. A super bowl QB mentioned that Chip does not rely on timing routes so much as more basic WR routes; thus the QB has a bigger window to complete the pass. Now I thought the West Coast Offense relied heavily on timing routes, and I know Chip uses some WCO scheme so I am a little confused about the timing route statement.
Bottomline, if there is less pressure on the QB via timing routes maybe Sanchize will flourish here. Call be cautiously optimistic. Maybe AC or Tommy can explore this topic for us in the near future.
Listen to Shurmur’s PC from yesterday. The Eagles do not have many pre snap reads. Kelce has the line calls (some systems have the QB call the mike, here its the center) and also have some simple progression reads that means the QB only have to read one player after the snap (often a LB or a safety).
Sanchez will always be the butt fumble guy in my heart.
What in the holy hell is happening with Cincinnati? Andy Dalton just turned in an all time awful performance at QB. They looked like legit super bowl contenders at the start of the season, now they’re getting creamed by the Browns.
The ups and downs of an NFL season, huh?
Andy Dalton = the new Mr. October
Andy Dalton was terrible, but the Browns aren’t the Browns of yesteryear. That defense is pretty legit, and they’re still getting Josh Gordon back down the stretch.
Tommy –
This is a post that would make Jerry Rice blush. Well done.
Adam Schien is a complete and total hack. He was one of the absolute WORST hosts on Sirius NFL and I was happy when they booted him.
Who would you rather pay 100 million, Andy Dalton or Nick Foles?!
*warning: sarcasm alert
Neither.
Sometimes sarcasm is even funnier when people don’t get it.
Usually, in fact
Marc Sanchez
I was expecting you to say Cam Newton…
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1xoR5cIcAELORm.jpg
you almost think that chip planned it that way.
On the topic of benching because of performance. Dalton put on one of the most putrid displays of a QB I’ve seen in awhile(pronounced a-hwile :)). He started the game off with a horrendous int. Yet, he didn’t get benched. Cinci’s ONLY threat at rb — against a season long terrible run defense — gets benched because he fumbled for the 1st time of his career. Some times coaches think they high and mighty when they do a benching like this … but to me it’s not necessary. Hill isn’t constantly putting the ball on the ground. He carried the team the week before. I don’t admire any coach who thinks he’s bigger than the game and does a “I’ll show him a lesson by benching him”.
All the young developing QBs have games were they completely unravel like Dalton. Take Dalton, RG3, Tannahill,Cam, kAp and even wilson and Luck…. A bad game for them is like 150 yards, 3 INTs and a fumble….FOles NEVER unravels like that, and this dumb fanbase still rips him every time he doesn’t have a perfect showing…..a bad game for foles is either 2TD 2 INT…. Or a FOles unraveling game is like the dallas game where he is skidish and misses wide open WRs all day, but we still don’t ever see him unravel and have one of the truly putrid games that the young developing QBs have from time to time…FOles just happens to play for a,ridiculuos fanbase…when FOles has a bad game, he usually gets it together in clutch time and gives us a chance to win at the end..l you don’t seemFoles unravel to where he has to be benched.
…
Even when it’s bad for Nick, it’s usually BETTER then the bad of most young QBs….that’s what leads me to have so much confidence in the kid… We will rip FOles no matter how well he plays if he throws an INT..that’s a fact! Other fanbases would be thrilled to see a young QB work tnru some stuff and lead their team to a win having a 220 yard game with 2 TD and an INT….NOT US!! If it’s not the perfect game, FOles gets ripped…well youñg Qb at his stage aren’t supposed to play perfect games….
…
If Nick FOles isnt a good young QB, then they don’t exist, because he never has those 3 INT 150yard games that young QBa have from time to time…we just don’t understand youñg player development and maturation process, we expect to be linear like an escalator that just keeps improving and going up…when in reality, there will always be rough patches, and young kid needs to play ATleast 3 NFL seasons to develop as a QB
…
FOles is the truth….sooner or later it will be obvious
again, it might be perception — Foles has thrown ints(some bad ones too) but in those same games there’s always a “Foles makes an absolute perfect throw”. The Foles haters refuse to see those throws and only remember the int’s. That’s ok though, Foles isn’t going anywhere. The haters will have a long time hating (kind of like my ever ending hating of Mathews and Allen)
Yup…he has his share of boneheaded young developing QB mistakes… But we rip the kid when he has good games and has like 5 bad plays…. The kid can play solid, winning football, but if he has a bad play, he automatically had a bad game as far as this fanbase is concerned…. Imagine this fanbase having to sit thru the development of KAp or RG3 who are Braindead in thee pocket? kAp and RG3 would have been eaten alive in this city by now
I’d actually love to see rg3 competing for a starting spot on the Eagles. Don’t know if he’s really got it, but hed be perfect if he’s got something in the vicinity of what we thought he had coming out of college and in his first season.
There’s no “me” in Eagles, so he’s not a good fit. There are continued reports of RG3 / team split locker room. Not saying it’s true but there’s enough smoke to make you wonder…
Definitely!! Reports surfaced that owner ordered RGme to start over Colt… Team mates don’t respect that, when they just had Colt lead them to a win. They would accept the change from the coach, but it makes RG3 look like Snyders pet, and you know that’s going to rub some people the wrong way in the locker room
…
It has become almost as good as a FACT, that as long as snyder and Jerry are alive, we have nothing to fear…and Giants won’t matter until they get a new coach and QB and they keep giving us a nice head start by prolonging what inevitably needs to be done
…
You are absolutely right. Jerry is going to turn Romo into an invalid. There’s no reason to start him Sunday unless you are scared that your team can’t handle some injuries for a couple games.
Snyder doesn’t ever learn. He has his toy and he wants to use it. It reminds me of the movie “The Toy” with Richard Pryor. Snyder is the little boy who wants everything his way, when he wants it. Regardless of the consequences.
I get what the Cowboys are doing. Make the Jags prep for Romo even if it’s pretty unlikely he’ll play.
He practiced two days, he is playing, they are too dumb to sit him, and they know they are a joke that needs romo to beat 1-8 Jags… I don’t even care if Dallas wins. The damage will still be done.. These morons are flying Romo overseas to play against a bad team, but a team that 3rd in sacks and has been putting a beating on QBs all year… Romo is going to take a beating sunday, be shocked if he can finish the game
especially when they take an L that week…
Eww..God no! The VICK era was enough for me…
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If you run better then you throw from the pocket, go FOCK yourself, as far as I’m concerned LOL
I really don’t. I don’t think he’s dedicated enough to being the best, or worse, dedicated enough to put the team first.
Sucks to be them… They just paid him, and this is how he rewards them?
..
Bet the bengals would give anything to trade for our “QB problems”.
Not sure what in the world they will do. They can trade for a young QB to compete with Dalton like Glennon and Cousin…they can maybe draft Hundley… If the Bears stop fooling themselves with Cutler the bengals could go with a veteran like him…they can go after sanchize….
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Interesting to see what they Do, but they can’t go into next season having awarded the position to Dalton. He needs legit competition and too win aQB battle to keep his job after this slop
Wonder if we,see Eli quarterbacking the Bengals next year…
Meco told Casey Mathews to “take control of the team!”
…
Like I expected, Meco will be at every practice, every meeting, preparing like he would if he were playing, so that he can help our young Lb and defenders,
..,
Class act!
It is sad that this approach is noteworthy. That is what every player should do.
Unfortunately, it is noteworthy, and commendable.
True… If you are going to collect a check you should still find a way to help the team you are supposed to be a part of…that’s why I have so much faith in our team to overcome adversity against everyone else…our foundation is sound. Class acts, former team captains across the board…Jason Peters, Kelce, Mathis, Maclin, all these men stuck around and helped their younger team mates when they were injured for long periods of time…
Meco is a heart-and-soul guy. He’ll make a great coach someday, hopefully the Eagles bring him on as a coaching intern if he does have to retire.
I dunno, that dude can do whatever he wants…he can go into politics if he wants, easily get a job with local or national media…Meco will be just fine in life after football, he will have a million options to chose from….Tho I would love to see him stay involved with the Eagles.
In the short term, I think Sanchez is most likely a good thing. Given the presence of kelly, the run game, etc it’s hard to imagine Sanchez playing any worse than foles. And given his physical skills it’s possible to imagine him playing better. Its a good experiment to see what Sanchez has. Though, I do like how Foles shows up in crunch time.
On the other hand, I would’ve loved to see how Foles plays with a reinvigorated run game. In the long term, this is critical for decision making about the qb spot moving forward.
Clearly you haven’t watched him play in the NFL at all, also, can’t see that you watch much football if you think what Foles did is the worst you can expect. This Sanchez is a savior thing is a bit much, we are talking about a QB who has more career turnovers than touchdowns, a terrible completion percentage, who was pushed out of NY by Geno Smith, that no other team really was competing for his services. It shows in his 2 TDs to 2 INTs. You can think Foles wasn’t playing up to the way you’d like, but to think Sanchez is going to come in and do something different is just a fallacy.
Ross Tucker’s Football Podcast had Greg Cosell on and they briefly discussed Sanchez. Cosell felt that Sanchez was not as good on film as he was on TV.
most qbs aren’t
Foles is going to win ATleast 1 playoff game this yeàr. I don’t know when he takes over, or why, injury to Sanchez? Sanchez not playing well? Chip loyal to Nick? But I see,FOles playing again this season and winning in the playoffs… Hopefully both him and Sanchez do their part and the year ends with FOles vs. Luck part 2 in the superbowl
“Chip was pretty emphatic” … ever notice that Chip seems to wait for the questions he wants to respond to? 10 questions will be answered yes/no/not what we do here/training etc … hit a question he wants to answer and it’s a 5 minute speech…lol…
Foles’s performance was disappointing by just about every objective measure.
Except one.
As Kelly remarked a couple weeks ago, all Foles was doing was winning.
No way Kelly changes QBs when the team’s 5-2 or 6-2.
If the Eagles were 3-5 under Foles, I’m thinking Kelly’s leash would have become very short.
Just one person’s opinion.
FOles is like 13-3’or something insane since taking over.
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If you look at his entire first 16 games, it’s elite in historical senses. His numbers compare to only the greatest like Peyton, Rogers… Even with the turnovers this year, his numbers for his first 16 games are still elite!!
Kelly’s never been a coach who played hide-and-seek with his QBs.
Every other position.
But not at QB . . . absent injuries.
The most Sanchez can accomplish for himself is to earn the right to go into next season having a legit open competition/Duel with FOles for the right to drive chips Ferrari. That’s the best case scenario for mark.. Nick has already earned that right to not lose his starting job without a fight….
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There is NO scenario where FOles is gone before next year, or Sanchez had so much success that he goes into next season as the starter without having to compete with Nick who would be relegated to back up
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But you can bet, chips priority is to try his hardest to have both Nick and mark in Philly next year…and if he isn’t happy with Barleys project, he will still draft another QB lol
why even get into this? If Shanchez plays awesome and wins the SB, that is not “getting the opportunity to compete in camp”. But why even argue about all the hypotheticals.
Who is arguing with anyone? I tell it like it is, take it or leave it… Not arguing with anyone. Only a cunt of a human being would argue with the respectful AC viking,… Where do you see an argument?
1) He’s not elite.
2) I thought Tommy wasn’t going to write about this topic? Relevancy indeed. Not that you’d ever admit to being wrong.
Because he is too stupid to even know that he was wrong.
Redskins still waiting for RGIII but we’d call them crazy
I still can’t get over the fact that the Eagles are literally inches away from being 8-0, despite how poorly Nick has played.
The injury couldn’t have been worse timing for Nick. He was starting to come around and was making some big time throws again, the INTs notwithstanding. And with the offensive line finally healthy, the running game was starting to impose its will.
Mark Sanchez is stepping into a very good situation for himself, and his success is going to throw shade on Nick’s performance, though the two situations are hardly the same in terms of talent around them.
mksp wrote:
“Mark Sanchez is stepping into a very good situation for himself, and his success is going to throw shade on Nick’s performance . . . .”
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An excellent 6-8 week epitaph for Foles.
what’s your feeling on their feeling on Foles. it sounds like you think he could lose his spot
A:
I commented in yesterday’s thread that I believe Kelly, his staff, and Roseman have formed a very firm opinion on Foles at this point.
Unlike the fans, they’ve see him every day since May 2014. And all last season — on the off days, not just game day.
My guess is that if the Eagles were 3-5 w/ a healthy Foles, Kelly would be much closer to moving on to Sanchez.
How close, I don’t know.
But we’d have learned an awful lot about Kelly’s views on QBs — from developing one, to sticking with one, to Foles himself — if those were the facts.
Right, but what we haven’t learned is how Kelly will treat Foles when he comes back if Sanchez is also winning. The Vick situation isn’t a great analogue because Vick wasn’t winning the same way.
This makes me think of the decision in SF to replace Smith with Kap. It’s not like Smith has torn it up since moving to KC, but some might say he could’ve been better for SF than Kap at this point. I wonder exactly how much Sanchez has to show to keep the starting job?
Concur.
If Sanchez goes 6-2, with numbers comparable to Foles’s — why change?
Unless Kelly’s a slave to the adage that starters don’t lose their job becaues of injuries.
Kelly, however, is no slave to anything. And already seems to have shown he’ll go with the hot hand.
Which is far different than Reid. This is why I like Chip Kelly.
I agree Sanchez can play his way into the starting spot. Foles’ uneven play and inability to improve opened the door.
But I don’t think Kelly will just look at the W/L column, like a national sports journalist who just looks at the box score to determine how well someone played. If Sanchez plays well but we still lose (due to bad defense, special teams, RB fumbles or whatever), I’m guessing that will be taken into account. I doubt Kelly is as passive behind-the-scenes about Foles’ turnovers/bad decisions as he is when talking to the media.
BC:
absolutely. great points.
BC, that’s my perception of Chip also. He looks at the whole picture.
Well, except against San Francisco, where the offense scored 0 points. And we won a few other games (at least the Rams) thanks to defensive and ST touchdowns. So you can say in certain cases, we won despite Foles.
BC:
If Luck and Cousins had played just a little better, and Austin Pettis doesn’t drop an easy crossing route, the Eagles could be 3-5.
But the record’s the record.
Just seems Kelly’s not the type to change QBs when the team’s winning.
all this QB talk this week has been depressing. How is everyone not exhausted from it?
Yes, Sanchez will, or he better, out-perform Foles. The line is getting healthy and Maclin is establishing himself as a deep threat, which helps the run game which has come back to life in a big way. All of these factors put Sanchez in a fantastic position to succeed. We aren’t going to be getting a very great way to compare the 2 quarterbacks, but that’s not going to stop this conversation from happening every single week I guess.
Foles is out of the picture for 6-8. Sanchez has a bunch of starts ahead of him regardless of how well he plays, and we all need him to do well, very well. Can we not just hold off on team Sanchez and team Foles until Foles is healthy? Sorry that was a silly question. This is not going to be a very fun 2nd half of the season on these boards.
Yup..I have had to do a ton of avoiding Eagles talk/news this week to keep my sanity… I’ve never so out of touch with what’s coming out of Novacare as this week. I knew I wouldn’t be able to stomach the absurdity that comes with the QB chamge
same, I avoided posting anything for a long while now, even then trying to find something on maybe the panthers, or our defense. But not really, first Sanchez comes in and it’s a bajillion articles on Sanchez, split down the middle of was he better or worse than Nick Foles. Then a bajillion articles of if he is GOING to be better or worse than Nick Foles. Then a bajillion articles of projecting whether or not Nick Foles will lose his job to Mark Sanchez. Then an article that sources say the Eagles don’t like Foles anyways. Then an articles where chip says that’s bull, oh and said he makes all the roster calls (which everyone suspected but was never officially revealed to my knowledge). And fans are eating it up and carrying on a raging debate that has absolutely no answer and can’t be answered for 6-8 weeks. I’m all about some prognosticating but damn, there’s more prevalent things to discus isn’t there? There is a game comeing up and 51 other players on the roster right?
Turned on the radio on my ride home, and Mike misanelli was explaining why we know FOles isnt the answer and why his careers in philly is over..I couldn’t listen form ore than 20’seconds
It’s brutal. Wait until they run for 200 yards and he has a good game. Peter King is going to way wow and make all kinds of stupid conclusions.
Most of us are on Team SB. Whoever the QB happens to be then, I like that guy.
That’s hilarious. You ask if everyone is exhausted and then write 2 paragraphs of your own. Guessing you weren’t to exhausted about it….lol….
Cason has allowed five touchdowns over his last seven games, according to PFF, including an 81.8% completion rate on throws into his coverage. That’s the worst clip of any perimeter cornerback in the NFL. (that’s from rotoworld) YIKES. Game plan — run run run … pass to Cason’s. I’m not sure the Eagles stay hurry up or try to do long drives like they did to end the game. Going to be a great Monday night game to watch. Panthers D stinks. Hoping it’s not a whoever has the ball last kind of game…
He started off having a monster year, now they may bench him for the Eagles game. If he does play against us, he is one bad game away from the bench,.. But the other CBS are nothing special as far as Im concerned so it’s not one of those weeks where we have to pick on 1 CB… We should win individual matchups against that entire Secondary….
Re: Eagles’ QB Mahjong – Kotite Style
Time usually creates the kind of mental distance needed to assess past events with emotional clarity.
In the case of the 1991 Eagles’ QB situation, NO AMOUNT OF TIME will change the immediate or subsequent assessment of Kotite’s QB choices that season.
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First, he inherits Randal Cunningham and the ultra-brittle Jim McMahon as his QBs.
Looks good on paper, right? Actually, no.
In McMahon’s 8-year career before coming to the Eagles, the former Bears #1 QB NEVER started 16 games. The most was 13 in his 2nd year. The next most was 11 in 1985.
A coach with even mild curiosity would know that McMahon was not a reliable back-up.
But Kotite was . . . well . . . he was Kotite.
In the 1991 pre-season, he cut 3-year vet Don McPherson (whom Buddy had drafted) in favor of rookie free agent QB Brad Goebel from Baylor
Goebel threw 13 passes his senior year in college. One-Thee. 13.
He in fact regressed so badly in college that he lost his starting job to a kid named J.J. Joe.
http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/brad-goebel-1.html
But Goebel was Kotite’s fail-safe plan in case both Randall and McMahon were injured.
Genius, no? No.
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As every Eagles fan knows, things got worse from there.
Randall goes down for the season after 15 minutes in Week 1 vs. the Packers.
Whom did Kotite add to the roster as his new back-up QB?
[It’s okay. You can say his name out loud now.]
PAT RYAN . . . 36 year-old Pat F-ing Ryan . . . who’d been out of the NFL working construction since 1989.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To no one’s surprise, in Week 5 on MNF, the injury-prone McMahon goes down against eventual SB winning Washington team.
Ryan finishes out the game and actually plays *worse* than a 36-year old QB who’s been working construction since 1989.
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So in the lead up to Week 6’s game — on the road in Tampa on 10/6/91 — the big question in Philadelphia was whom Kotite would start at QB.
The Birds were facing an awful 0-5 Bucs — which had scored just 59 points in 5 games, while yielding 100. [The Bucs were to finish 3-13 in ’91.]
So who would it be . . . the veteran Ryan or the kid Goebel, who was so bad in college he lost his starting spot to J.J. Joe?
Goebel started and played the entire game in a driving rain.
He finished 9-20, 62 yards, 0 TDs, 2 INTs.
The Eagles lost 14-13. (If the Eagles had won that game, they’d have made the playoffs.)
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Fast forward exactly 23 years-and-1 month.
The QB conversation is about Foles and Sanchez.
Both were ultra-productive college stars. Both have had success in the NFLs.
The debate — insofar as one’s been going on — reminded me of the Goebel vs. Ryan conversation . . . and how far away we are, in so many respects, from 1991.
Back then, they said you couldn’t win anything with back up QBs anyway… Then Jeff Hosteller leads the Giants to a Super Bowl. He wasn’t good enough to be even proclaimed as a game manager, regardless of his progression to full-time starting QB. Brad Goebel!!! Pat Ryan!!! As I remember, Doug Williams was unemployed that year!
In 1991, Doug Williams — like Ryan — was also 36 years old and out of football since 1989. But Williams retired after backing up Rypien in ’89.
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More generally, I think *good* back-up QBs have always had a place in taking teams deep in the playoffs — and even the Super Bowl.
I think Hostetler’s another in a long line.
There’s Earl Morrall, who’s probably the best example. He led the Shula-coached ’68 Colts and undefeated ’72 Dolphins to the SB. And in 1970, he and Johnny Unitas split time — even in the SB — in quarterbacking the Colts to the NFL title.
The great Raiders teams of the late ’60s to early ’70s annually relied on QB/PK George Blanda to work in relief of the “mad bomber” Daryle Lomonica. Blanda even won the 1970 MVP award for a string of late-game heroics (that involved both throwing TDs and kicking FGs).
http://157.166.253.202/vault/cover/featured/8205/index.htm
The ’67 and ’72 Cowboys had QB Craig Morton fill in for injured starters Meredith and later Staubach to get Dallas thru the regular season and into the playoffs (and nearly the SB in ’72).
The SB champion 1969 Chiefs had a QB named Mike Livington — a 2nd year guy from SMU — fill in for HOFer Lenny Dawson from nearly half the year.
The Steelers’ dynasty of the ’70s were loaded at QB with Bradshaw, Terry Hanratty, Joe Gilliam, and Mike Kruczek. (As an aside, Chuck Noll only settled on Bradshaw as his unquestioned starter after he’d won their first SB in ’74 — despite taking Pittsburgh to the playoffs the prior two seasons.)
And the ’70s Rams played QB merry-go-’round, never finding the QB who could take maybe the most talented team in the NFL next to the Steelers to the a championship — but always making the playoffs. It wasn’t as much about having good back-ups as finding a true No. 1. (Rams coach Chuck Knox ran through QBs John Hadl, James Harris, Ron Jaworski, Pat Haden, Vince Ferragamo, and even Joe Namath.)
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All these QBs, however, were 2nd-stringers — and very talented ones.
The problem with the ’91 Eagles is they were down to a 3rd-string QB. And an over-matched rookie at that.
Had Jeff Kemp — whom the Seahawks cut after week 5 — been available after Cunningham’s injury, instead of later in the season, Kotite might have actually coached the Eagles to a SB that year.
I can’t think of single SB team, winner or loser, forced to start a 3rd-string QB for more than a single game. (’74 Steelers – Hanratty. ’79 Rams – Jeff Rutledge. ’02 Buccaneers – Shaun King.)
Whenever I hear the name Kotite 2 memories come to my mind:
1. the frustration and hatred for him my dad would display on sundays
2. the utter confusion on why any team would want to hire him as a coach… but that is the Jets. That organization has a history of disfunction that nearly rivals the Raiders. It isn’t a surprise that Sanchez couldn’t succeed there, no one could.
On a side note, last year I couldn’t decide which was a better Super Bowl outcome, Carroll winning in the city that chose Kotite over him, or Payton finally ending any “Eli won more superbowls” arguments/statements once and for all. On second thought, my hatred of Eli currently supersedes that of Kotite.
good stuff. If we kept Don McPherson, odds that we win the SB? With a QB3? that would be a good story.
Broke my heart when McPherson was cut.
He was a 1987 Heisman runner-up at Syracuse. And a 3-year starter running a pro-style offense under future NFL coach Dick MacPherson
DonnieMc had 3-years of NFL experience, albeit all pre-season and working the scout team. But he had it — unlike Goebel.
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That said, if Kemp’s there for the Eagles’ 4-game losing streak in mid-season, I think — as long as McMahon doesn’t get hurt in the playoffs — the Eagles have a pretty good shot to reach the SB.
McPherson’s a tougher call because — unlike Kemp — we have no data on him.
But McPherson had to be, HAD TO BE, better than Goebel.
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As said elsewhere . . . “I believed that then; and I believe that now.”
My memory may be fuzzy, but that TB fame was a heartbreaker. As I recall the eagles were up 13-0 in the fourth quarter with typical dominating defense and pretty much had the game won… Until the punter dropped the snap near the end one. TB scored on the next play and the with the momentum were able to score the winning touchdown in the last two minutes.
Chip Kelly puts his QBs in a position to win. The Eagles will win with Sanchez.
Mark Sanchez is not Aaron Rogers, or Tom Brady, or Peyton Manning.
IF Sanchez can reduce/eliminate turnovers, he will look dominant in Chip’s system (Foles has 10 ints and 3 lost fumbles in 7.5 games, and the Eagles are 6 – 2).
Brent Celek said this earlier this week, and whether it was Sanchez, Ryan, NY or all three, he didn’t have Celek’s accredited fortune: “The luck of being drafted by an organization like this, and then to be able to be coached by a guy like Coach [Andy] Reid and then the second time around get Chip Kelly.”
The importance of coaches and organizational stability is often overlooked when discussing how an individuals career turns out. I would really love for someone to study the correlation of career success and poor coaching/organizational stability. I am not sure how to isolate poor GM’s from the equation, but I guess that falls under organizational stability? So many people focus on where someone was drafted and not the support, teaching/training and structure they were given once they were in the league.
not just in football, in any career. Few of us are really self-made.
Just like with Peyton Manning can make a “Chair with a Helmet” into a Pro Bowl WR, I believe Chip Kelly could make an intelligent monkey into a Pro-Bowl QB. In the words of Aaron Rdogers…. R-E-L-A-X…. In Chip We Trust!
On a sidenote, isn’t it awesome our last two head coaches seem to be QB whiperers! If Trent Dilfer can win a Super Bowl so can “Fill in Name Here” QB with Chip.
I think Rogers’ words are the key for Sanchez. He needs to take it in that he should relax and not press. He doesn’t need to play conservatively, but he shouldn’t try to take the team on his back. The situation is different here. I’m optimistic after getting down instead of trying to make a big play, especially given that Sanchez’s explanation matches the tape. The game is probably much slower for him now, as he says. If he can stay in this mindset, the offense will take care of itself.
This seemed to be Foles’ problem this whole year. He’s a gutsy kid, but it appeared that expectations got the better of him.
I don’t care who the hell is out there, just win.
Next soldier up!!! (Except Barkley)
I just found your shield.
RE: QB-Friendly Offenses / Back-Up QBs
I’m not entirely sure what constitutes a “QBFO,” beyond the following passing observations.
[Note: I invite D3FB to speak to this topic — to whose views I defer.]
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If the offense is filled with great players and directed by a great offensive coordinator (or HC operating as OC), then I think you have a QBFO.
Examples:
1. Dallas Cowboys 1990-95, running the very vertical “Air Coryell” offense under Norv Turner and then Ernie Zampese.
The scheme’s philosophy was built around the running game and play-action passing — with a big, talented WR running deep outs and skinny posts on perfect time, and a talented TE working underneath.
Aikman excelled. Steve Beuerlein excelled. The Cowboys excelled.
(Turner ran the same scheme in Washington without much success, then again in San Diego with Rivers, Tomlinson, and VJax with lots of success.)
2. The (true) WCO of Bill Walsh’s 49ers from 1981-94.
The offense was built on pre-snap reads based principally on a conventional 2-back set with 2 WRs and a TE. Used short passes in lieu of runs, and — like the Coryell offense — emphasized play action.
http://westcoastoffense.com/bill%20walsh%20article%202.htm
Walsh’s scheme had WRs and TEs like Rice, John Taylor, Russ Francis, Brent Jones, Freddie Soloman and Dwight Clark, as well as RBs Wendell Tyler and Roger Craig, and FB Tom Rathman . . .
Montana and Young . . . HOFers.
Even Jeff Kemp — in a 6-game stint in 1986, going 3-2-1 — posted pretty impressive numbers: 119 for 220, 59.5%, 1554 yards, 7.8 YPA, 11 TDs 8 INTs.
Kemp’s QB rating was 85.7 — which, in 1986, would have placed him 7th overall if he had enough attempts.
For Jeff Kemp to perform at that level, it’s fair to say he was in a QBFO.
3. The Minnesota Vikings 1998-2000 — Sort Of.
A vertical WCO offense. Huge WRs. Power running game. Big armed-QBs.
So potent and simple that Randall Cunningham looked like a HOF pocket passer for one season. Then Jeff George the next. And then Dante Culpepper the year after that.
Weapons? WRs Randy Moss, Chris Carter, Jake Reed. TE Steve Jordan. RB Robert Smith.
All the QBs did — it seemed — was throw ball up and let their receivers make a play on it. (The party ended after Smith retired, Culpepper blew out his knee, and Moss became a head-case.)
Only thing missing was a great O-coordinator.
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This much is true about the QBFOs I’ve mentioned.
The O-coordinators/HCs were very good at scheming and getting execution.
The back-up QBs were surrounded by excellent players.
The back-up QBs succeeded — in no small part because they FIT the system.
And the back-up QBs were fairly well talented to start with.
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So a QBFO, it seems to me, is more of a conclusion than a schematic premise.
Put Babe Laufenberg in the Cowboys’ offense and it doesn’t work.
Put Mike Moroski into Walsh’s WCO and it sags.
Give Norv Turner Heath Shuler and the results are terrible.
Give Walsh Scott Bull or Steve DeBerg and Walsh’s no longer a genius.
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All of this is to suggest that Sanchez — on the premise that Sanchez is a talented-enough guy — he should do pretty well over the next few weeks.
He’s working with very good coaching.
He’s surrounded by high-quality talent.
And the defense is playing pretty well.
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Would the answer be the same for Matt Barkley?
The only question I’d ask is, “Is he talented enough?”
Because if he is, then Barkley would be playing in a QBFO.
My understanding of QBFO is that the expectations and responsibilities are relatively low. Jason Kelce is making the protection calls, The engine of this offense is the running back rather than the QB. Most of the calls have minimum reads and easy progressions. The ideal is get the ball, make 1 read, 1 decision, get the ball out. Many systems put the entire offense on the QB’s shoulders (see Broncos), call the protection, pre-snap reads, audibles, snap, find an open guy. I don’t think it’s completely fair, there are game situations, a lot of them this year, where we have looked to the qb and said “go win us the game, they are loading the box, we aren’t running or can’t run due to the game situation”. But it’s all relative.
The question is, if you can make an offense so friendly to a QB that even a QB playing at a middling level can take it a long way, what the hell are the other 31 coaches doing!?
“My understanding of QBFO is that the expectations and responsibilities are relatively low.”
No disagreement.
I’m just thinking in terms of when a QBFO is in fact a QBFO.
Because no matter what anyone says, if the players can’t or don’t execute the scheme, it’s just not “friendly.”
One would think finding a QBFO QBOF would be easy.
After the 46 defense, nothing would be easy.
I remember learning about Buddy’s aggressive, attacking 46 defense and thinking, “holy hell, with four linemen and 6 linebackers it damn well better be aggressive.”
This, exactly. Particularly when the QBFO is scoring a lot of points and doing so quickly, which is a pretty big goal for offenses.
If an offense can be easy for the QB, and score a lot of points, every other offense is not as good. Which makes me think that maybe it is not quite as friendly, or easy, as it seems. Maybe it is reliant on a more subtle set of abilities.
Exactly, what I left unsaid is that the vast majority of the the people who use that term are using it to discredit a particular QB’s success or pile on the particular QB’s struggles. Which makes ACV’s quest for truth noble, but elusive (a soocratic exercise, perhaps). Kind of like trying to define clutch. One of those terms of convenience. I like this QB for intangible reasons. I don’t like this QB, he’s in a QBFO.
You are killing it in this thread, and I’m thinking about what you’re saying. Thanks, ACViking.
Thanks AC for a very informative answer to my question below. One point I heard at the beginning of Chip’s tenure at Philly was the simplicity of his plays and formations; how he uses variations of the same concepts over and over again. He makes it easy for the QB to read Defenses by only keying on one or two players for each concept play.
One pundit last year mentioned a NFL team that had 1,800 offensive plays. The playbook was the size of an old NY phone book. No way a team can execute effectively and often with that much BS.
IMHO, if we have the right QB this year (with all the weapons at his disposal and both ST and D having his back when mistakes happen), this team can make it to the BIG Show. For me the litmus test is the Packers game. Then we will see what we have this year.
I seem to lean more towards the eye test over stats.
Stats capture a portion of the picture but theres always that variable at the end of the equation that, if we knew, would explain why the stats and results are the way they are.
Sanchez has good mechanics imo, and of course, im no kind of expert. But what I see, is mobility, a good arm, vision, confidence, above average decision making, and a understandble level of chemistry.
Sanchez has got to improve his decision making, and chemistry with the recievers.
But I like what I see.
To me, sanchez likes to take risk with his throws, fit into tight windows. and he has the arm to do it.
what kills that, is timing and chemistry. The huff pass, was late and high, needs to get that pass lower and in front, thats part chemistry and part a bad throw. But Huff has to catch that.
The passes to riley and matthews that were off were products of chemistry. those passes could have been completed, if those guys were on the same page.
When I compare this to Foles this year, I saw foles trying to perfect the back footed throw, which in his defense, to me is like jordan perfecting the fadeaway, your taught to not do it, but if you perfect it, it is nearly unstoppable. or difficult to stop.
I saw foles throw three ergregious interceptions. Which was part chemistry, but, I expect Foles to have chemistry at this point…..which is why I am higher on sanchez right now. I cant say due to age, and circumstance, that you consider making sanchez the guy, Foles has to get more opportunity, or you draft a QB, or you go with sanchez for 4-5 years and try to get a QB in those years.
But can you win with Sanchez…..I believe it. Why, cause I think he has the skills to be good.
Has he produced that way, hes shown flashes.
Cant say I think you absoultely have to limit his passes to win and run the ball.
Wether you come into a game ready to run heavy or pass heavy, sanchez has to have two things down,
The chemistry with those recievers, and the mindset to not turn the ball over.
You can see his mindset is different from what tommy posted about him taking that sack.
So although the injuries are worrisome. Im projecting this,
Sanchez will do well and he will have more than one game where he throws over 30 passes and he wont turn the ball over.
Marcus Smith will be the starting inside linebacker by the end of this season or the beginning of next season.
We shall see.
MSU coach was talking about what an athlete FOles is… He said he throws down 360 dunks… I knew his athleticism Is deceiving but I struggle imagining him throwing down 360’s
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Maclin gave an interesting interview about Nick this week that threw me off guard. to me, I view Nick as a special QB that just gets it…but the consensus is that its hard to get behind him because he can’t run fast, doesn’t have the cannon on arm,. Basically he makes due without having the best talemt is what the consensus seems to be…but when Maclin was comparing and contrasting QBs he was talking about Nick being the “special talent”.. Even hearing how much respect a and belief a veteran like jason Peters has in Nick….
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NFL players know what a special QB looks like, and it’s interesting to hear how our veterans and players view him, especially after he just had a rough statistical half a season. If their confidence of Nick was going to waiver, it would be now….. Very cool to see just how special our players think young Nick is…
he might be able to dunk but how would he get by someone to do it?
Sooooo what you’re saying is that he can’t play PF/C position for the Sixers this year?
He might start for them
27-2. Plus I have no doubt that that Nick is a fastidious worker and a great teammate and cheerleader. He just needs to play better – i think he’s got all the other stuff you’d want in a qb (aside from mobility).
http://dunkcalculator.com/
Hype to see “Ogre” Mathis maul someone with Sproles blazing thru behind him..it’s been too long since we saw Mathis pound someone.
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Carolina gets LT Byron Bell back. He ismt anything special, COle should have a big day, but they are lucky cuz his Undrafted backüp got abused by junior Galette last week. this OL has issuesl Our DL should kick butt Monday
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Curious to see the safety snap counts after the game. Nate is back Healthy, so that should tell us about how the coaches view Wolffs play last week. If they liked what they saw in Wolff, I’d assume both him and Nate will see snaps… If Nate goes back to playing the entire time, things don’t look good for Earl.
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I hope to see him get some snaps..he needs some continuity.. Giving him once in a blue moon spot duty isn’t going to help him develop..he needs to play in games a few weeks in a row… Nate hasn’t been so good that they can’t rotate like Casey and Acho man
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Do we root for San Fran or the Saints this week?
I thinks Saints win but I would never root for NO I hate them too much
Def favor the saints. They always tough at home, Niners are a mess, that’s not the same bully team of the last couple of years…Niners wont mAke the playoffs
Why I’m expecting the worst from Sanchez:
http://www.sbnation.com/2013/8/8/4598028/mark-sanchez-jets
The highlight (?) of the article is the graphic showing Sanchez tied for dead last (with Joey Harrington) in passer rating amongst 119 QBs who started at least 4 years for the same team.
Get well quick, Nick – and get ready, Matt, we just might need you.
But we’ve got Chippah….#lookingdownthefloorandkickingupdustwithmyfeet
Interesting that you’re looking forward to MB. You must really not like MS. Hopefully between him and the improved line we can perform enough to keep the ball rolling. I doubt anyone thinks MS is the truth, but this was Foles’ prove it year and I think people are a little frustrated with the decline in his performance.
That’s true, but calling year two in a baby QB development a “prove it” yeàr is pretty silly, but we are a silly fanbase… Doubt many QBs “proved” much in their 20th game starting…. Unfortunately QB development takes YEARS, like 3-4 seasons.
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Hopefully our puppy shows enough to keep justifying investing in his development, Chip isnt a dumb fan, he knows right now, Nick has a ton of development that still needs to take place. This ismt a maxed out QB who has been given every chance to succeed and just doesn’t have it in him.
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I’m not sure what we will get from the sanchize, hope he is smart enough to know we are a tough team and he doesn’t have to do too much for us to win…don’t want sanchez trying to do too much on Monday night trying to prove his critics wrong. don’t try and win this game. Put your team mates in position to go win the game…. He doesn’t have to win it, he needs to not LOSE IT for us…so hopefully he has the right mind frame, protects the ball and his body, and lives to play another down… Hope he understands that we would rather lose this game, than lose him to injury
Perfect !
You’re right GE, Sanchize does not need “to do it all” for an Eagles win. We have a 3-headed monster, a tough and opportunistic defense, and ST that make things happen. This is not a team of NY losers, but a team of winners which includes the coaches. No need to press when your whole team has your back.
And you OD, like “the last Samurai”, cut right to the truth.
so, whispers are circulating that Jameis Winston “shaved points”??? I hope this kid isn’t THAT stupid! Recent history suggest we can’t put it past him to be this dumb! He very well might be
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Crazy that this story has surfaced, I literally watched the ESpn 30 for 30 last night on the Boston college point shaving SCANDEL.
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If this idiot gets in trouble for point shaving, it’s like a 5yr mandatory sentence or something
What is point shaving?
What the prisoners thought Burt Reynolds was doing in “The Longest Yard”…..you know…..keeping the score down on purpose, for gambling….you know.
Lol. I cannot believe how much I do not want Winston to become an eagle.
Don’t worry. Chip won’t touch him with a 10 ft. pole.
jesus.
“whispers are circulating” = TMZ report that everyone knows about.
you’re not breaking news, you’re not an insider.
quit it.
Not sure there’s anything to this report, it may be a hoax.
There’s not…..
How durable has the sanchize been?
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If you would have told me last year that in my future I would be rabidly rooting for the butt fumble I would have had you Commited into a mental aslyum.. Life’s funny
You know GE the whole “butt-fumble” thing does not sit well with me. When I look at the replay, I see an offensive lineman pushed hard into Sanchez as he is trying to make a play. It was a totally unexpected event to my eyes. Maybe it’s my rose colored glasses or the whisky in my glass but I don’t see the thing as Sanchez’s fault.
Don’t get me wrong. Sanchez was a train wreck with the Jets. He threw into triple coverage, choked at key times, and overall had poor decision making. He tried to do too much because no one had his back – especially his coach. Whether this is a fatal flaw(s), we are going to find out real soon.
It was Sanchez’s fault in the sense that he turned the wrong direction to hand off to someone who was not there and not supposed to be there. In trying to improvise his way out of a mistake he scrambled forward and Wilfork plowed the right guard into him.
` turned the wrong direction to hand off to someone who was not there and not supposed to be there.`
how do you know this? do you know the design of the play? Maybe the runner made the wrong decision and was supposed to be where Sanchez went to hand the ball off? Are you in possession of their playbook?
just from watching the replays over and over will never tell what was supposed to happen. only what did happen, and you can be sure what happened was not how the play was designed.
Sanchez:
“I was thinking a different play in my head. That was a mental error there. As soon as I realized there was no one to hand it to I started to run toward the line and tried to cover it up and just get down and I slid right into Brandon Moore.” “I was just trying to get down. The play was over. Say ‘Uncle.’ Do the right thing. Get to second-and-10 and live to play another down. I’m not a big believer in luck, but that was pretty unlucky. It was really too bad.”
how do you know this?
Sanchez:“…“
guess that`s how you knew that 🙂
I have never seen what the big deal was, either. A QB has hundreds, thousands of plays in his career. Some of them will look bad or ungraceful. Judge him on his play and his stats, not one unfortunate event.
Adam Schein is loud and uninformed which is why he was drummed off of the NFL station on Sirius. Dude would read a few website opinion pieces and off he went. Callers would ask serious questions and he had to defer to the other radio host. Definition of a blowhard. That being said, Eagles O-line is the key. If we can establish the run, Sanchez will be fine. I imagine the box will be loaded, daring Kelly to make Sanchez beat the D. We shall see. Fortunately Greg Hardy likes guns and beating up women more than he likes football.
That’s a pretty strong piece Tommy.