The Downside
Posted: January 5th, 2015 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 764 Comments »While I am mostly happy about the resolution to the Eagles situation, it isn’t perfect. There is definite risk in putting Chip Kelly in charge of personnel.
First, we don’t know how good he is at personnel evaluation. We know some anecdotal bits, like the fact Kelly said Odell Beckham was his favorite WR in the draft. But that’s nothing special. People that are really good at finding talent are the ones who find players in the late rounds or as UDFAs. Figuring out you like Beckham a lot is like saying Julie is your favorite Eagles cheerleader.
Kelly had to build a roster at Oregon and he obviously did a great job of that. But finding and developing college players isn’t the same thing as NFL roster building. College players can be “good enough” and you can still win a lot. In the NFL, everyone has access to great talent. Building an elite roster in the NFL takes hard work, skill and some luck. How different is Seattle if Russell Wilson doesn’t last to their 3rd round pick? How different is New England if Tom Brady doesn’t last to pick 199?
In college, if you don’t like a player you simply bench him and move on. There is no financial commitment. The NFL is about finding talent and then deciding how much to pay them and how long to keep them. That can really complicate things.
The Eagles have shied away from character issues the last 2 years. Can you build a championship roster like this? Keep in mind that character issues doesn’t mean wife beaters and crack smokers. It could mean someone like Darelle Revis, who has no legal problems, but constantly feels underpaid, even when he’s one of the top paid players in the league. At some point, Kelly may need to take risks on a guy or two that isn’t his ideal person. Kelly had some troubled kids at Oregon, but has avoided those types so far in the NFL.
Arguably the biggest difference is the size of rosters. College rosters are huge. The current Oregon team has over 100 players, a mixture of scholarships and walk-ons. The Eagles have a 53-man roster and 10 man-practice squad. It is harder to stash and develop players in the NFL. Since only 46 guys are active on gameday, you can’t count on getting playing time to everyone. And Tennessee Tech is never on the schedule. Developing talent in the NFL isn’t easy.
Let’s say that Kelly does turn out to be good at finding talent, early and late in the draft. That still doesn’t make everything okay.
One big problem with coaches doing personnel work is that they rarely understand value. The coaches know who they like and who they really want. Mike Ditka is the most famous example of this. In 1999 he traded all his picks plus a 1st and 3rd to move from pick 12 to pick 5 to get RB Ricky Williams, who he saw as his new version of Walter Payton. Williams was a great prospect and had a good NFL career, but that’s not how you build a team. Ditka went 3-13 that year and was fired.
Back in 2006 the Eagles coveted 2 players, Brodrick Bunkley and Winston Justice. Andy Reid wanted to move up in the draft to get Bunkley. Tom Heckert, who was masterful at gathering pre-draft info, felt the Eagles could stay put at pick 14 and get Bunkley. Heckert had to talk Reid out of moving up for Bunkley, who did fall to 14. Justice was expected to be a Top 20 pick, but fell down the board. Reid pushed Heckert to move up from the 2nd round for him. Heckert waited patiently until Justice got to pick 39, where he made a reasonable deal and the Eagles got their other man. By Heckert knowing what other teams would do and how to play the board, the Eagles got both players. Left to his own devices, Reid would have overpaid for Bunkley and would have had less of a chance to get Justice.
Chip Kelly found out about value last May. The Eagles had a 3rd round grade on DE Taylor Hart. Kelly wanted to take him with the first pick of the 4th round. Howie Roseman explained to Kelly that Hart wasn’t going to go at that point. The Eagles could take other players, who they had rated the same or higher, and could still get Hart down the road. The Eagles took DB Jaylen Watkins and then got Hart in the 5th round.
A story came out over the weekend that Kelly wanted the Eagles to take WR Jordan Matthews in the 1st round, but Roseman talked him out of that and explained that Matthews would be there in the 2nd round. The Eagles waited until the 2nd round, but then did trade up to get Matthews.
There are a couple of differing theories here. The first says that draft value is important. You figure out which players you want and then try to figure out what the other 31 teams think of the player. Is this someone that you can wait on or do you need to be aggressive? This isn’t about looking for bargains. The point is to try not to overpay since you have limited resources. If you can get a player in the 5th round, wait. Use your 4th round pick on someone else.
The other theory is about targeting your players and then going to get them. The Seahawks coveted Russell Wilson. They showed great discipline in waiting to the 3rd round to take him. Think about how different that franchise is if Wilson isn’t there, but Nick Foles or Kirk Cousins is their QB. They got very lucky that someone didn’t step in early for Wilson.
The Colts, under Bill Polian, drafted differently than the other 31 teams. They didn’t care about your value. They went and got their guys. It delivered mixed results, but was good enough to keep them winning for a long time.
Kelly will get smarter about drafting and value the more he’s involved in the process. He will figure out how he wants to handle things. There is no one certain way that things have to be done, as long as you find talent and stock your roster.
One area that will be a mystery is trades. Roseman was well-connected around the league and did a great job of working the phones all year long to maintain relationships. This helped him to gather information and have trade partners when the draft rolled around. I don’t think Roseman will be on the phone anymore. I have no idea if Kelly can make deals. Andy Reid was awkward with this. It could be that the new personnel guy will work the phones and be responsible for deals. If the Eagles go with a young guy, that will require some growth on his part. No matter what happens, I would guess the Eagles would be less active with trades this April/May.
The biggest issue is simply finding talent. If Kelly does that well, the other things can be worked out. Jimmy Johnson came straight from college to the NFL and loaded Dallas up with talent. Drafting Troy Aikman was a no-brainer, but he did great things beyond that. Johnson brought in Emmitt Smith, Erik Williams, Leon Lett, Larry Allen, Darren Woodson and on and on. This wasn’t a fluke. Johnson went to Miami and drafted Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas. He knew how to find great players. Bill Walsh left Stanfor for the Niners and also built up an amazing roster. He drafted arguably the greatest QB and WR of all time in Joe Montana and Jerry Rice. Ronnie Lott is another Hall of Famer chosen by Walsh. Go read this great story on Walsh and how he ran the 1986 draft.
Time will tell if Kelly can handle the challenge of being in charge of finding players. He is a smart man and great coach with an eye for the big picture so I tend to think he’ll do well, but this is a risk. There are no guarantees that Kelly the GM will put Kelly the coach in position to succeed.
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He’s had final say on roster the whole time. Nothing has really changed.
Whittling down a piece of wood that your given to make something amazing is easier than choosing the right piece of wood to start with.
Chip has the plan for what he wants players to be H/W/S and all the rest, but you have to be able to spot what a player can develop into, especially for late round guys, and you have to know when is the right place to get them value wise. Hopefully the guys chip will hire have the experience of building the board and making the trades so we don’t end up reaching for players we could otherwise wait for
I’m hoping that it won’t be such a drastic change from having Howie there. Chip is clearly a smart dude, he may be the one with his finger on the button in trade/draft scenarios but if the new personnel guy is any good (fingers crossed) then he should be able to offer advice and I’d expect Chip to be reasonable and understanding about it… I guess we’ll find that out come July.
By all accounts he listened to Howie last year. Hopefully the guy we sign is big enough that he will disagree with Chip and not just go along with what he says, Chip does seem like he’s smart enough to listen to people who know better, which is an important quality to have.
At some point, Kelly may need to take risks on a guy or two that isn’t his ideal person. Kelly had some troubled kids at Oregon, but has avoided those types so far in the NFL.
This, my friend, is the biggest concern I have personally. I cannot remember the last time ’53 nice, guys’ winning the Super Bowl. As you said, sometimes you need a difference-maker, even though he might come with some sort of baggage. As much as I would love to see Dez Bryant in Kelly green, with Chip now running the show this will most likely never happen.
I wonder is there a Crazy/Talent scale along the lines of the Hot/Crazy scale from HIMYM. i.e. A player can be a 5 on the crazy scale as long as hes a 7 on the talent scale
Looking at that scale I must admit having dated way too many in the ‘No Go Zone’. One of the main reasons I am doing the DRYathlon now.
If only the HIMYM writer who generated that scale for Barney’s Blog was also an ardent Eagles fan that frequented this website…
I’m hiding nothing 😉
YOU aren’t…
I think he can do this but wants his base level of “his guys” in the locker room first.
marcus peters at 20 please
Packers and Seahawks come to mind.
Paraphrased quote from Chip when he got hired was that if a player asked why something had to be done a certain way, that you had to be able to give a logical answer and not just ‘that’s the way its always been done’ or ‘because i said so’
If he truly believes that i don’t think we will have any problem with the guy he hires in that he will allow his mind to be changed if somebody can realistically prove him wrong. I see that as the season for the shake up, for a system like that to work, you have to trust every single person around you in the personnel department, and trust their judgement. If Chip can stick to that and not change into only listening in his coaches, i see this going well.
Great piece, Tommy. One of my all-time favorites.
I second that…this was a great read.
I still think the new GM and Howie will be a big part of the draft and trades and I also think Kelly is smart enough to listen to them about value
If that was the case — no changes would have been made. Lurie changed this for a reason — and reason seems to be — too many chef’s in the kitchen. One was removed.
I agree. Howie Roseman has to be involved in some way… He’ll be behind the scenes i’m sure.
I think this is an important point. While Chip is now head of player personnel or whatever they’re calling it, there will still be situations where Howie has to tell him no.
If, for example, Chip wants to extend Maclin, but J-Mac is asking for a contract that doesn’t fit with the cap, Roseman will have to either tell Kelly that he can’t have the player he wants or explain the cutbacks they’ll have to make elsewhere to get the contract worked out at which point they’ll have to discuss what they’re going to do and reach a decision between them.
Even if he’s not going to have as much of a say in choosing which players to sign anymore, Howie is still going to need a good understanding of how much other teams value various players in order to do his job properly and it’s something he seems to have been very good at over the years. I’d argue that, as a result, he’ll still be the best placed guy to negotiate trades and, hopefully, Chip won’t ignore his draft experience completely just because he isn’t mandated to listen to it anymore.
This is where I get nervous about the Eagles keeping both Kelly and Roseman. I think both are somewhere between good and great at their jobs, but if the relationship has deteriorated so much that they essentially had to be separated, will they be able to work together even in this limited fashion? In your example with Maclin, if Roseman doesn’t resign him due to excessive salary demands, will Chip accept that? I’ve stated from the beginning, and I haven’t read anything since that has changed my mind, Lurie should have let Roseman go to eliminate the potential for a dysfunctional front office.
According to some of Kelly’s earlier interviews, he thinks you draft the players you want no matter what round it is. I expect a few head scratchers this year.
When were these interviews? I’d be really interested to know how much his view has changed.
Look up his comments on Matthews and Smith. He basically said, they have the same goals, it shouldn’t matter where they were drafted. I agree with Kelly on maybe 90% of his philosophies and ideas, but I believe he underestimates the importance of accurately ranking how valuable others see players.
I’m pretty sure Howie will still have a say in the draft, and obviously he’ll have a say in the money part of it – that’s his job. Based on this article, it seems like Kelly is willing to listen to valid arguments about a player’s value. Hopefully he picks the right guy to be his “GM” or whatever he’ll be.
How are you pretty sure?
Chip the coach felt that Howie the GM could not allow him to succeed to his best potential, so either Chip is a bad coach or he isn’t.
I am most worried about the trade front. I was under the impression Roseman had spun some amazing deals since taking on that responsibility. I am disappointed Howie may not be working the phones.
Curious- what do you mean Andy Reid was “awkward” with working the phone and making deals?
My first thought would be trading out of the 1st round twice for late round picks when they need lots of upper tier help on the D. And wasn’t one of those 1st rounders to the Cowboys?
something something ham sandwich?
The Intern who was tasked with geting Andys lunch for all those years should write a book
In 2012 Roseman is reported to have full control over the draft. Essentially it appears that we hit on 5 of those picks: Cox, Kendricks, Curry, Foles, Boykin, and possibly a 6th in Kelly.
In 2013 Chip Kelly’s First draft, but also the advice of Tom Gamble. From first glance we hit on 3 picks: Johnson, Ertz, Logan.
In 2014 Chip Kelly’s second draft, but also the advice of Tom Gamble. Right now the only hit is Jordan Matthews with Smith, Huff, Watkins as potential solid picks. While it is very early to judge this class, I just don’t see the promise that say the 2012 draft class had when they were going through their rookie season.
If these reports are true about Chip Kelly: Wanting Matthews in the 1st and Hart in the 3rd; I really have little faith in Chip Kelly the drafter especially after only TWO years in the pros. Roseman seems to have a knack for where to draft players, so why not have Howie run the draft and then Chip can find his new personnel man (MAN-o-witz) find his players? The Roseman “demotion” is boggling.
The thing is, the 12 and 13 draft had much better draft position so you should expect to hit more picks (pick 40 is worth around the same as pick 20 in terms of chance of hitting a pro bowl player)
Higher up the draft board so higher chance to hit; I get that argument. BUT you still have to HIT those picks and it would appear that he did so on a large scale. How could he hit so many picks and not be able to run more of the future drafts?
Because when you pick between the potential great coach and the good GM, you always side with the coach.
Look at how Jim Harbaugh turned a good drafted team around by good coaching or how Andy Reid turned the Chiefs around just by good coaching alone.
True, I’ll take the great coach too. But now we have to hope for no reaches constantly and reaches are what get coaches fired.
Would getting Jordan Matthews in the 1st instead of the 2nd getting Kelly fired? Would getting Hart instead of Watkins or Huff get him fired? Most likely not.
As long as the reaches are hits. Kelly’s draft board valuation is mediocre at best; if in fact those reports are true. If Kelly is making the call on where players are drafted overall, I am worried. But if Kelly is at least going to Roseman about where players will fall during the draft then it should be a better turnout with talent and resources overall.
Since Kelly himself is the source of the reports, I would hazard that they are true 😛
You’re correct, but the cumulative effect of constantly reaching will end up getting him fired. The nfl demands that you constantly replenish talent.
And Andy Reid is a competent coach. He has clear flaws that has never been able to overcome. He may never be a great coach, but he is clearly capable of getting his players to work together for the good of the team, which is surprisingly less common than you would think.
That only carries much weight for perhaps the first three rounds. Honestly, by the third round, everyone is extrapolating and every player has significant warts. Roseman has shown he can find gems later on, Kelly not so much. Despite this, I think Lurie should have found a way to let Roseman pursue opportunities elsewhere. Why? It’s easier to find a competent to good personnel man than it is to find a good to great head coach. Even so, I find myself nervous about the idea of Chip in charge of the draft without strong voices to advise him.
Beau Allen was a good 7th rounder and while the 3rd was high, i do like Taylor hart, when I looked at Dion Jordon coming out i got drawn to Hart almost as often, he had a tough lineup to crack into his rookie year but Chip and Azz wouldn’t have drafted the kid unless they knew what he could handle.
As for huff, give him time to develop, he made a few rookie mistakes but hes a young guy, that happens, He might not end up as a star, but if he can handle kick offs while being able to play, inside receiver, outside receiver and at rb, he is a good piece to have. He always seemed to come up with 20 yard receptions at Oregon he just needs to keep his head down and working this off-season.
Nobody expected smith to contribute much this season, and that was before Brandon Graham started playing like he wants to get paid, next season will be when he hopefully gets some playing time and then takes over full time in ’17
Yea Hart could be a stud too. It just hurts that Smith and Hart never saw the field. With the front 7 as it is now, could it be we dont see them in heavy doses til year 3?
No.. We will see them both next year, they will prove to be quality additions in years to come. You will DF see them next year
they’ll both contribute i think, but i dont think they’ll have huge roles, at least at the start of the season
They will both play ATleast 30% of snaps. Worst case scenario Marcus is in a role similar to BGs this past year.. Both players play positions where we are better off rotating two waves of players all game long, so we should see both…
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I assume Bair will get traded, or him and hart will compete for who is inactive each week… harts up to over 290lbs, I’m sure he will be ready next year, and once he is ready he is a player they will want to get on the field. He won’t start as long as Ced is in philly, but we should see plenty of rotating
thats what i was assuming would happen with them both yeah
Bair has no trade value.
I will enjoy the fact the power structure hasnt been this clear in a while. Next year, there is no wondering or trying to read between the lines trying to figure out who is responsible for each move. I will enjoy this rare clarity of knowing just who deserves the credit for the success and who should be held responsible for the failure….
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I also like that we won’t have to look back and wonder what if. Chip now has,full control, which means he gets to build this thing exactly how he wants it. If he fails we don’t have to wonder if our GM gave him the talent to be successful…chip is going to get EVERYTHING that he WANTS, am Anxious to see what he can do with that power
I’m ok with Chip having final say, but if you think the power structure is clearer than ever, I have to disagree. We discussed this quite a bit on the other thread and my concerns still have not been mollified.
Huff made a ‘few’ mistakes? You must not have been watching the same team I did.
Yeah the guy looked like a rookie, he wasn’t atrocious.. Be fair to the guy, he made some things happen, just needs to learn that defenders in the NFL are bigger stronger and smarter than what he saw in college, nobody is expecting him to be Hall of fame, he’s going to settle in just fine
I’m not denying that Huff has talent. I just don’t understand why Marcus Smith couldn’t sniff the playing field despite upside while Huff kept getting regular playing time despite incredibly costly mistakes. Huff should have essentially been red shirted this season to allow him to become a more complete receiver. The rewards certainly didn’t equal the damage he did this season.
I think the thing was just that Graham was playing well huff was clearly the 4th receiver… But I do agree
You forgot Cody Parker
That’s not a draft pick brotha.
was a Kelly choice, and he was a rookie
The Eagles desperately needed a kicker and Roseman traded for him. What is your point here?
Cody Parker was one of the rookies added to the Eagles in Kelly`s 2nd year. How is that not relevant
You made your point about Parkey, not Parker btw. My point was about drafts. So how is your point about a trade relevant to draft history?
What if Hart was taken in the third but Bryant in the 4th? Then we have Matthews a decent late first rounder although before hindsight some may have wanted Smith, Roby, Dennard, etc. Then you have your second round pick and I can’t remember who would have been a good one there. Maybe a corner if not picked in the first. Finally you have Hart and then Bryant.
Considering how this year played out, you would then have 2 fantastic looking receivers, a DL in the 3rd perfect for the 3-4 behind a bunch of starters and a mystery second rounder who could have been our missing OL Howie wished he would have gotten or a corner.
The things we wouldn’t have are Josh Huff, with which I ask the question, would you rather have Huff or Bryant (considering we couldn’t throw deep, maybe Huff was better) and we also would have Smith which the hurry is still out on.
That’s only 1 side of the coin.
Hard to look at how the 2014 draft plays out if Kelly starts off with Matthews, after his top guys got drafted (or, alternate reality, we traded up with the 2nd or 3rd to get ODB, Cooks, or HaHa)
Sticking with Matthews, Chip may have also been down on the pass rushers still available by PHI 2nd rd pick. Maybe this is where he grabs an OL (who were gone by 3rd, exasperating Howie and Chip alike). Or, maybe this is where he grabbed a DB who Howie undervalued?
It’s really hard to just make the case “If Chip was in charge, we’d have (1) Matthews (2) Huff (3) Hart”, because that’s assuming so many other variables. PHI had 2 trades in the first 2 days alone, plus the Bryce trade to get a 4th this year. How much of that is different?
Really hard to demonize Chip’s eye for talent based on the collaborative result that was 2014. Going even further back, maybe he would have been more/less aggressive in FA? Maybe Revis is in green? Getting guys already established in the NFL may be 60% of his plan; he seems to have done well with the guys already brought in, be it Howie or Gamble or whomever.
Beau Allen was wanted by Chip and Azzinaro. Seems like they did a solidjob of finding late round talemt. Jordn Poyer was valued by 3 different NFl regimes. He played ahead of Justin Gilbert late in the season….
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As long as we have someone good at collecting all the Predraft Indo, accurately setting up the draft board, knowing what round players will fall to, I’m sure we will be fine.
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I’m pretty confident that chip knows what real talemt looks like
Trey Burton and Matt Tobin at least look like competent players. We found Brandon Bair to be a servivable DE and Posinski was a great ST pick up
I’ll put all my money on it that Trey Burton was a Howie #FloridaBias guy.
But Trey Burton also check all the Kelly boxes in what he wants out of a TE. Great St guy, can play RB, HB, FB, QB, WR
Re: Rd 7 – Beau Allen v. Shamar Stephen
Following the 2014 draft, T-Law wrote:
“I was on Twitter typing my wish [for] . . . the Eagles [7th] pick and the first named I mentioned was DL Shamar Stephen.
“Before I could post that, the Vikings used pick 220 on him.
Kelly admitted later that’s the player the Eagles wanted.”
___________
Based on Tommy Lawlor’s reporting, Beau Allen’s selection was the result of some good fortune.
In 1981, Dick Vermeil wanted WR Perry Tuttle in Rd 1.
The Bills took Tuttle the the pick right before the Eagles.
So the Birds chose WR Mike Quick instead.
Draft-day good fortune.
I wonder does Howie’s power over ‘NFL strategic matters’ enable him to still negotiate trades? would seem like strategy to me
I thought of the same way. Howie will still be part of the draft and trades, its just Kelly has last say now.
no way Howie wont be in the draft room, my thinking is Kelly would say the move he wants, goes to Howie, who susses it out to determine the value then goes back to Kelly with his recommendation on if the trade is a good deal or not
As long as Kelly is going to Roseman about draft positioning, I’m happy.
I think you should go back and read HR new responsibilities …
Cap guy would surely have to be, and he has the ‘nfl strategic matters’ responsibility, which suggests to me he would help in trades
I thought chip had final veto power already.
I don’t think he did and that’s why all these changes are taking place. Chip had input but HR was throwing his weight around. Like said above, Chip wanted Mathews earlier but HR talked him out of it…
Being talked out of it is very different from being told no or over ruled. As stated above, Reid was talked out of drafting bunkley early yet he still had all the power. If nothing else, HR talking chip out of his players early is proof that even in the new structure he will listen to advice.
it isn’t a “raise your hand and we’ll count” decision. Chip had his say and HR listened and decided which player. HR won’t be in the room anymore to give thoughts. It’s not his job anymore. Chip will always listen. He openly wants opinions. But Chips decision will be final. Just as it was HR before.
um, a “raise your hand and we’ll count” situation is the complete opposite of what I was discussing. If that were the case then Roseman wouldn’t have had to talk chip out of anything, they would have just voted. Same could be said that if Howie had more power than Chip he would have just over ruled him and wouldn’t have had to do any convincing. That is my point, Chip had a ton of power already, and he implied he already had final say in his press conferences during the season. And yes Howie will be out of the room, but it is foolish to think he won’t have new advisors giving insight and input – again, that isn’t implying there will be any voting, but information sharing and collaboration.
If Howie ‘talked him out of it’, then Chip still had final say. As much as I love Kelly, based on Kelly’s on comments, Howie steered him right several times last draft only for him to be pushed out. I truly don’t understand why this is happening. I can only assume it is personal between them. Frankly, this is what scares me most about having both still part of the organization.
That’s the crux. What happened, the way it happened(or the way it was presented to us) doesn’t make sense at all. Fire the Chip guy, demote(or in the eyes of some – promote) the GM, put Chip in charge and he’ll hire his own guy. Wait — Chip’s guy was fired and he gets to pick his own guy????
I don’t think so. HR is now strictly a numbers guy — and that’s it…
Chip already had last say. I will be very curious to see what role Howie plays this year. I hope I’m wrong about the potential for a train wreck.
Exactly. My theory is that Chip got tired of Roseman constantly reminding him of the multiple instance where he saved Chip from poor decisions.
Perhaps. If so, it is the first sign I’ve seen of Kelly being petty. I’m truly baffled by the inability of Kelly to value Roseman.
If the reports are true — Chip wanted Mathews round 1. HR said no, he’ll be there round 2. That doesn’t sound like — in any way/shape or form that Chip had final say…
Chip’s own words were to effect of “Howie had to talk me out of it.” That would indicate the decision was still Chip’s.
I thought someone posted rule 1 — don’t trust anything Chip says. But think about what you wrote. If Chip really wanted that guy AND Chip had final say — he’d tell HR that he’ll duly note his opinion and pick his own guy. Howie had final say.
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Think about Chip. His personality. IF this was truly his team, do you think he’s ever let someone stand in his way from picking someone he wants if he had total control? The answer is no. Which is why he NOW has total control. It’s the point of all these moves. Chip will no longer say “HR talked me out of it”…..
I don’t completely buy ‘rule 1.’ You do have to take some of what Chip says with a grain of salt, but he clearly stated when pressed ‘I have final say.’
For what it’s worth, I’m more worried about Howie and Chip having to try to work together now than with Chip having final say. I’m also concerned that if there isn’t someone to ‘talk Chip out of x’ that reaches will become common. One or two reaches won’t kill a team, but a pattern of doing it will lead to us becoming the Raiders.
I doubt it.
Instead of the media (this is not aimed at TY law) writing the same story they been writing about since last week, that they will never,find out the truth about..
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Now that the season is over, it shouldn’t be too much to ask from one of our beat reporters to get to the Bottom of that Bryce Brown trade? Year is over, we know what stevie Johnson’s stats are, so it should be clear what the compensation is that we will recieve for trading away Bryce Brown…. Be awesome if we could get some damn clarity on the compensation we are owed from that trade…
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I bring this up because I was thinking what a great job Howie has done in trades:
1) We gave up a 4th round pick for our defensive captain Mufasa, and he has played at a high level for 3 seasons and has been invaluable to our defense and Lockeroom.
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2) We traded a 5th for Darren Sprolea. His reliable return skills are worth a 5th round pick on their own, but I don’t think we have seen anything yet in terms of what Darren will bring to our offense.. Can you Imagine Sproles playing behind our 2013 OL? That’s a scary thought.
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3) We traded for Cody Parkey who has been a godsend the last week of the preseason. Vinatieri says Parkey will be one of the special kickers…..sure hope so
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We need to start looking for good players THAT fit our schemes from other teams, who are stuck on the bench because there is an even better player playing ahead of them. Someone like Meco, who wasn’t worth continuing to pay once the Texans decided to play other LBs ahead of them. I assume there is a good chance we end up with Dion Jordan, if not, hopefully we can identify good players who we can trade for….no idea what Bryce Browns brother Aurthur looks like these days, be kind of ironic to see us trade the pick we got for Bruce Brown to the Ravens for his brother Aurthur lol… We have an extra pick coming this year or next, hopefully we can use it to eliminate a need via trade….. Anyone think of any other players who could be available in trades due to log jams at their positions on other teams? Doubt the Cardinals are ready to give up Jonathon Cooper
I really think we get the pick this year as neither Brown nor Johnson produced that much.
Potential targets in trades:
RG3
Cordarell Patterson (not a Turner favorite and I honestly think we could trade Cooper+late pick for him)
Dion Jordan
CJ Spiller (injury prone, but Eagles already tried to trade for him once)
Patrick Willis (with Borland playing well and Willis been owned a lot and coming of a injury is very reminiscence of the Ryans trade)
Whitney Mercilus (with Clowney can they afford him in the long run?)
Nice list… Can’t say Id hate many of those names. Willis is doubtful, I really expect chip to go with Meco and a high draft pick in a time share. Pas won’t want Meco and another Veteran
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Spiller, Reggie bush could be traded or waived as well… Doubtful as long as we have sproles.
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Cordarrell or Dion would be Aweome… Gladly take Whitmey as well
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Andy Reid is startiving for WR. Wonder if he is hungry enough to take Riley Cooper off our hands lol?
Anything that gets Pooper and his contract off our hands is something I would take a good look at. Especially if it involves Patterson or a draft pick, you know?
with Henery gone, once Pooper leaves to whom on the roster will the hate go?
Hmmm, that is a tough one. I’m sure someone will fill the roll next season if Pooper leaves.
Casey Matthews.
Love the list as well, Anders.
Geagle, I must admit, I’m not as high on Demeco returning as you are. I love his effort and attitude, but his skills were clearly declining before the injury. He truly can’t afford to lose another step. Honestly, Demeco is the kind of veteran that Joe Banner used to be great at knowing when to say goodbye. This is one area where I wonder if Kelly will have to learn that lesson.
I’m not going to rule it him being able to play until I see it. Since he arrived, media and everyone has questioned that man and doubted him every single offseason, yet my belief in him never steered me wrong.
.
he is staying in Philly doing all his rehab here with our trainers. Hearing chip talk gave me some confidemce, he has consulted his trainers and sounds Genuinly optimistic… Once we spend a high pick on a quality young ILB, he will start to take some 3rd down snaps from Demeco, and I don’t doubt that Meco can still play the run on 1st and 2nd down at a high level..
..
You don’t become as respected as he is, just because of your Charecter and leadership.. His play has been solid, and I doubt we will have 4 better ILBs than Meco next year, and I know how respected Mufasa is by our defenders…
..
I don’t think Meco has ever gotten his due respect in this city. People prAise him for Leadership. But his play has been consistently solid
Isn’t Spiller a FA?
Patterson is not a Turner favorite because he has concentration problems worse than Kelvin Benjamin. May be too dumb to be coachable.
No, Patterson isnt a Turner favorite because he isnt a WR like Michael Irvin or Vincent Jackson who can dominate at the catch point in his vertical scheme.
Patterson is suited to a spread offense like the Eagles or the Broncos with tons of tunnel and bubble screens
cordarelle was my “breakout” star for FFL this year, who I overdrafted in every league that mattered.
he’s dead to me
I did the same; glad to know I wasn’t the only Mr. Smartypants…
The flip side of that is that Reid said on draft day that he wanted Russell Wilson instead of Foles, but someone told him that Wilson would fall to their third round pick, which may or may not have been the same guy who was telling Reid to pick Cousins instead. Heckert was very good at discerning draft position but it’s something the GM gets staff help with. Knowing Matthews would probably fall got the Eagles… Marcus Smith. I also like knowing who to praise or blame for the picks and free agent signings.
From what I have read, Reid wanted Wilson, Morningweg wanted Cousins and Howie wanted Wilson, then Foles, but though he could get him in the 3rd and picked Curry instead.
Where did you read that? Source on Roseman/ Cousins was PhillyMag 24/7.
Reid said on draft day he wanted Wilson, then Foles.
so maybe howie is terrible? we could have had a championship!
Then I mixed it up
At least the Chris Christie Alienate Battleground States Tour goes on. Cruz or Perry are going to take the Texas delegates but Christie’s advisors are too busy making runs to Subway and planting plausibly deniable threats on NJ mayors to explain that to him. A second term in the White House could involve vodka shots with the Russian hockey team, followed by a stint as UN Secretary-General spent high fiving the Martians as they empty out the gold reserves.
On Chris Christie: Is it better to 1. be an unapologetic fan of the Cowboys while living in NJ, fully admitting that he was once a bandwagon fan in the 90s, or 2. have it publicly known that you are Cowboys fan and then switch your allegiance to a NY team just for the politics of it? Both options seem pretty bad. Might as well stick with the team that’s winning…
And him being in the press box–Shit, that’s why you get rich/successful. Can’t knock a guy for that.
3. keeping your Cowboy allegiance on the down low.
Like this you mean?
http://deadspin.com/jerry-jones-and-chris-christie-enjoy-passionate-slow-m-1677468896?
All politicians are narcissists. Christie’s particular attention whore schtick is to be a huge asshole. “Everyone look at me I’m a big fat loud jerk.” And what better to way to piss off the people around you than to be a Cowboys fan in a world of Eagles and Giants fans? It’s been working for him since he was a child.
He probably wants to be president just so he can go to Washington and piss off Redskins fans.
And then have your jag off brother rub people’s faces in it with the typically Christie arrogance.
I’m noti a fan of buying free agent dream teams because I know how often they don’t pan out… But there are some real success stories from the free agent market. Passed free agent busts have nothing to do with this years crop of failures.
..
The Broncos went out and signed Cb Aqib Talib, and Saefty Ward, and they end up with the 3rd ranked aecondray this year..
,,
We can find expensive players That end up worth every penny, but this is where Charecter, passion for the game, work ethic, competitve drive become extremely important.
..
Waiting for free agency is always Hard, but missing the playoffs and being fascinated to see how we will operate in the offseason now that it’s chips world, makes waiting for March unbearable
.
Question; what’s the timeline for when we will start to see the Eagles cut/waive some of our current players?
It sounds like — it was HR ruling the draft. I wonder if HR is the one who decided NOT to grab some of the free agents that were available?
Is there a place to learn about formatting for Disqus? I find myself without a way to use italics, editing my posts because I can’t place spaces between paragraphs and a lack of understanding how to properly post pictures.
Disqus accepts HTML.
https://help.disqus.com/customer/portal/articles/466253-what-html-tags-are-allowed-within-comments
thanks I really appreciate it I used to do this in highschool, I think now I’m just trying to figure it out. Glad I can use a space too.
does [b]bbcode[/b] work too?
all simple HTML coding should work in Disqus
Two unrelated points:
1. Pete Carroll came into the same position of running his draft a few years back, just like Chip. I specifically recall everyone laughing at him for the Bruce Irvin pick in the first round. He’s turned out to be a pretty good player for them, and they’ve certainly hit elsewhere in their drafts. Carroll didn’t have the same sense of “value” as other drafters, but his eye for talent seemed to serve him well. Something to consider.
2. I think it will take a while to see how this all shakes out regarding the new power structure, but I think we all may be jumping to conclusions about Howie’s role. If Chip has specifically lauded Howie in the past about how he’s talked him out of bad drafting, do you think he would kick Howie out of the draft room altogether? I find it hard to believe that Howie won’t be involved in some capacity, at least to consult on value. You have a proven commodity in the office, it’s a waste to not use him. Chip doesn’t strike me as someone who would opt for waste over ego. The same is true as far as negotiating trades. Whatever clout Howie may or may not have in the league would hopefully not go to waste when the trades start. I think seeing how Chip folds Howie into the process that he now owns will say a lot about Chip’s ego-to-competence ratio.
I don’t think it’s possible to *not* have the cap guy in the room during the draft, since he would need to be consulted on any trade for a player already in the league. Even guys still on their rookie contract, or a trade up higher in the first round would impact the salary cap in some ways that need to be planned for.
Whether or not he has a voice in those plans is another story, but I imagine if Chip is doing something particularly stupid, he gets some sort of veto power.
Gonna have to disagree on the Bruce Irvin pick. That was a head scratcher then and still is now!
I agree with your second point, but when taking the talk about Kelly last years draft, and some of the candidness that he spoke with, another comment comes to mind. The comment about Marcus Smith not really being in their top tier, and having to draft him earlier than they had hoped, you have to wonder how many times that happened. How many times, or how often did Roseman gamble by waiting, which caused CK to lose out on a player he wanted?
I can see Kelly getting annoyed at the gamble of having to trade around in the draft. He seems to be a much more straight-forward kind of guy, one that would rather overdraft the player he wants instead of gamble and lose out on a player he did want. Looking at backgrounds too, you could definitely see where that might differ, with Roseman having an economics background and placing more stock in value, versus Kelly being so grounded in fundamentals that he’s more likely to stick to what he wants and knows.
All conjecture, but from his comments, I think that we might not see as much of a Roseman influence on next years draft. I could see this being a lot more like the Carroll drafts you described.
Problem is, and this is contrary to my post about Carroll, Reid had a tendency to get hung up on players and overdraft them. It rarely worked out well. The question is, what kind of player will Kelly get hung up on and overdraft?
Also, I don’t think your first point (about Smith) points to frustration with waiting; in the case of Smith, they were stuck at their draft position. There was no case of taking a player early b/c it was their first pick.
For instance did he want Marquis Lee? Certainly seemed that way — aside from the other guys they wanted in the first. Hard to tell if Kelly has wanted to compromise. Same can be said about FA. Did he want us to be more aggressive? Looking at Djax is easy to see that he’s not afraid of being aggressive when it comes to players.
I don’t know about that Irvin pick. They traded pick 12 (Cox) for Bruce Irvin, Jaye Howard (who isn’t with the Seahawks anymore), and Jeremy Lane (depth corner). Irvin has been ok, but hasn’t really found a position. He’s got 94 tackles, and 16.5 sacks over three years. Decent production, but for pick 15, let alone trading away a pick that resulted in a pro bowler…
Same regarding the Okung pick. Only Wilson from that draft has really been really good.
And Carpenter was a really bad one.
and lets not talk about the Zach Miller FA deal (who in their right mind gives Zach Miller 11 million in 1 year?) or Harvin trade.
D3FB:
“Bad” compared to what?
There’s “Watkins” bad. He started less than 20 games in 2 years with the Eagles. And he’s out of the NFL after less than 3 years.
Carpenter’s been a day-1 starter for Seattle. (I haven’t a clue whether he’s a Top 10, Top-20, or just a serviceable starter — but I’ll take your word for it that he’s not worthy of a 1st Rd pick.)
I’m just trying to get a better handle on what you mean by “bad.”
He was drafted to play RT. That was hilariously misguided. He’s moved to guard since then and his play and ranged from meh to steaming hot pile of poo. Anytime your college coach, is a little weirded out by you going so high, it’s not a great sign.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynvbg3QzpDM
Thanks for clarifying.
(And, jeez, that’s a wacky bit of drafting out west.)
Alright, I’ll concede that Irvin didn’t exactly pan out, but he wasn’t a complete bust (e.g., Watkins). He was a universally criticized reach, but I suppose my main point is that Carroll doesn’t necessarily look at value the way most teams do, and isn’t afraid to draft accordingly. I suppose the Irvin pick isn’t the positive example I was looking for, but rather an example of “outside the box” thinking. You can’t fault him for his later round picks, though.
LAE:
I’ll be a dissenter and say the Irvin choice does prove your point.
He was considered overdrafted, apparently, in conventional terms.
But my impression at the time is Carroll wanted a younger player to work into the Chris Clemons/DE position. And that player would not be a full-time starter.
That Irvin has not proven to be “worth” a No. 15 pick in Rd 1 after 3 years probably shouldn’t be the point.
The point — as I understand what you’re arguing — is Carroll made a decision that was unconventional in the view of most folks.
He’s not their LEO, though. He bounces around from SAM to situational pass rusher.
Correction noted.
Thx
you sir need to post more. it’s hard to find all your posts(and wisdom)
I prefer to post well reasoned, researched thoughts, as opposed to the ADD thought of the moment, million comment per post style.
Upvoted you for the second point. I hope you are right, but I worry that the relationship between Howie and Chip has deteriorated to the point of being uanble to work together. I hope to be proven wrong.
Disagree totally about Bruce Irvin. Classic example of overdrafting someone who at best is a part time player.
In regards to point #2, unfortunatley I do not share your optimism. I don’t think things would have come down to what they did – and in the manner they did – for it to end up in the quasi-kumbaya scenario that you paint. Howie being involved in trades, for example, seems far fetched to me. I hope you’re right and I’m wrong, but I just don’t see it.
Don’t know if someone has mentioned this but we are reported to be interviewing
Detroit VP of Pro Personnel Sheldon White for a job. 18 years in NFL with Detroit. I don’t really know much about him but getting a more experienced guy like him would be good and then promote Marynowitz. I’d be leery of having such a relatively young guy like Marynowitz heading the operation no matter how good he is. Here’s White’s resume:
1988-93: NFL cornerback with NYG, DET, CIN
1994-96: College coach – Miami(OH)
1997 – BLESTO Scout(all NFL experience is with Detroit)
1998 – Area Scout
1999 – College/pro scouting assistant
2000-2008 – Director of Pro Personnel
2009-2014 – VP of Pro Personnel
It is worth noting that White has a Bachelor’s Degree in Business and Finance and does have some experience negotiating contracts.
While the Eagles aren’t mentioned, La Canfora reported that Scot McCloughlan is being courted by 3 teams for personnel roles. He wasn’t in the league last year but ran his own independent scouting service. McCloughlan helped build Seattle and SF’s rosters and has a very good reputation as a scout. The issue with him is that he is a self-admitted alcoholic and has struggled with that.
I’d love to see Kelly give McCloughlan a chance.
Both McCloughlan and White sounds like great GM hires
I like that the eagles beat 3 of the 4 teams advancing this weekend.
4-4 against team with a winning record/in the playoffs by my count.
But they can’t beat playoff teams.
They beat 3 of the teams advancing…. Not sure if serious.
I guess I would too subtle, I shoulda wrote: But, but, but, they can’t beat playoff teams!
I just learned how to use italics today! Just put “text“.
Er…
Damn it. I actually italicized “text” you put at the beginning of what you say and around the end. No spaces.
And the Eagles lost to Washington.
Sort undoes all that other stuff.
so did the cowgirls
Yes.
Our respective examples would seem to suggest that a who-beat-whom breakdown isn’t very useful.
Roger Goodell just announced that in this weeks Packers/Cowboys game Dez Bryant has to approve all penalties before they are official.
Still pissed both about the flag being picked up for interference and that Bryant wasn’t flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct. Huge botch job and black eye for the league.
No worries, man. The Cowboys are going to get waxed on Sunday. But it’s like I heard someone say yesterday…I am not sure whether I’d enjoy it more if they got flat SMOKED on Sunday, or if it came down to a last second field goal, and they lost by 1, which is what all of their front-running, pathetic fans deserve.
“The Eagles have shied away from character issues the last 2 years.”
Isn’t this just a myth? Sure the Eagles want that to be the perception, and Eagles fans want to think their organization is only interested in high character guys, but where is the evidence for it?
The signed Cary Williams. Is that a player with no character issues?
They resigned Riley Cooper. Is that a player with no character issues?
They certainly didn’t seem to sanction LeSean McCoy at all for his series of, um, incidents.
Sure, they cut DeSean Jackson, but that seems like an isolated case.
So, what you’re saying is, we’re gonna draft Marcus Peters in the first? No complaints here.
I have no complaints either. When that long defunct national sports daily “The National” did a cover article on the 10 dirtiest players in the NFL during the Buddy Ryans years, I was thrilled that 4 of them (or was it 5?) were Eagles.
Hell, if I could find a reprint of the cover of that issue, a page sized photo of Andre Waters’ helmet striking a player’s knee with a large target graphic overlayed on the knee, I’d frame it.
RIP Andre Waters.
I’ll take tough over dirty every time. Waters was dirty. Reggie was tough. Dawkins epitomized toughness. Not the biggest guy, but he’d hit you with every bit of force he could generate. Would love to see more legitimately tough guys on the team.
It was a different era. Dirty was part of being tough back then.
Character issues isn’t a good way to put it. The eagles want players who don’t hesitate to put the team before themselves. You can be a knucklehead and possibly even a criminal as long as that’s true of you.
I think it’s possible lacking a team mindset does correlate with being a knucklehead/criminal though.
This. I don’t think it’s “character” in the matter that most people think about it. It’s a dedication to the team, and to your profession. Approaching practice and games as a professional, and having the mindset/work ethic to hone your skills constantly. That’s the culture Chip wants to have. Where he doesn’t have to harp on anyone to practice harder – it’s just understood and the social pressure takes care of that.
Like Cary Wilson saying the players are tired because the practices are too hard?
It seems to me that in the NFL you have the Raiders, and 31 teams that pride themselves on their insistence on “character” guys. And those 31 teams are mostly full of shit because they value talent above anything else.
The Eagles welcomed Michael Vick back to the NFL. The Eagles gave a huge contract to Riley Cooper a year after video surfaced of him using racial slurs in a public place.
If an unbiased observer were to list NFL teams in terms of the importance they place on “character”, the Eagles would be towards the bottom of the list.
Let’s keep it honest here guys and not blindly buy the smoke the organization wishes to blow up our windward passages.
I’m guessing Cary is gone, but it’s close to irrelevant anyway. It’s not so much what he says, but how he goes about his profession. He can blab all he wants to the press about anything (to a limit, obviously), so long as he shows that he’s dedicated to becoming a better player and approaches his job as a professional.
Again, “character” in this context isn’t what most people think it is. [Post-sentence] Vick met the criteria because he was under the gun for restitution, etc – he needed a big contract, and honestly, seemed to have realized the opportunity he had missed by not having the correct attitude. I don’t think the convict thing was at all relevant to Kelly’s definition of character. What was relevant was how he currently approached his job.
What is relevant is the Eagles penalty yards and turnover rankings, which are both abysmal.
I don’t want to hear about how Chip Kelly is putting together a team of high character, disciplined players. I’d like to see that on the field.
Again, if you put yourselves in the shoes of an unbiased observer and look at what the Eagles put on the field, along with the misconduct surrounding the team, the last thing you are going to think is that high character players are a Philadelphia Eagle priority. You would think the opposite.
I personally don’t think that the penalty yards this year had much to do with discipline, as much as it did with a lack of depth at crucial positions. Same with turnovers. But it’s pretty clear we won’t agree on this, so I’ll just say I agree to disagree.
Maybe. Pass interference yards sure do add up.
Not sure on how you pin the turnovers on lack of depth though.
Both of those guys were penality issues when they came (fletch and sconces). Cary came cheap and had a ring AND i think he thought that he would bring toughness to the defense, willing tackler, etc.
Fletch was cheap, was good before injury, they probably thought he could fix the PI issue. That said Fletch was decent last year many thought (i didn’t) he just got exposed this year on deep balls.
We were 12th in number of penalties committed. Lets not go overboard with that narrative. Team with more penalties than us include: SEA(1st), DET (2nd), NE & DEN (t-6th).
Holding doesn’t show a lack of character. Illegal contact (especially with the new “emphasis”) doesn’t show a lack of character. False starts, offsides, accidentally tapping the QB on the helmet trying to make a play doesn’t show a lack of character. Those are effort plays.
Shit like trying to fight people after the whistle, however is.
Yes Cary is a hothead idiot. Yes, Cooper got drunk and yelled a racial slur.
Show me our player who killed a teammate and was resigned.
Show me our player who made a bomb threat at LAX, while on probation for a DUI and weapons charges.
Show me our player charged with domestic violence.
Show me our player investigated for domestic violence who was allowed to play, and then cut after we were no longer in playoff contention.
Show me our player who raped a woman
Show me our player who beat the hell out of his child
Show me our player who threatened his girlfriends life while chokeslamming her onto a couch with enough guns to rule a chunk of land in subsaharan africa
Show me our player arrested for violence in a strip club
You’re trying real hard to spin this narrative. You’re probably better off going back to calling Chip Kelly a racist based off a couple of cherry picked instances.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nfl/arrests/
Well, we do have Shady.
Also, great link:
“Accused of being drunk, head-butting and hitting a cab driver and trying
to hide from police by stealing a shovel and covering himself in mulch.”
I mean getting into it on twitter with his baby mama isn’t a great look, but it’s understandable.
As far as the party bus, yea it’s weird, it’s probably not something that you want your players to be engaging in, but the only side of the story we’ve ever heard is from the woman who was trying to sue for money, so that falls into the camp of:: his side, her side, and the truth.
As far as it goes, I don’t mind if a player is accused/does one of the things on your list if the teams reaction is to jettison his a$$. Now, if the team tries to hide it, trivialize it, or ignores it, you have a team that truly doesn’t give a damn about character.
Honestly, that’s what makes the teams love of Cary strange to me. He constantly lets his emotions run away with him, leading to dumb penalties. No one in Philly will likely ever forgive him for ‘sconces.’
Yeah, he has a feisty streak, but that’s only endearing if it gets the other team to lose its cool and make dumb penalties.
He talks the part of a Richard Sherman or a Steve Smith, but he doesn’t back it up.
cooper is a character all right
RE: Character
I understood that what Kelly wants from players is:
1. smart enough to learn his system
2. wear the sleep monitor and sleep the prescribed 10 hours
3. change their diet to whatever Kelly says
4. drink the smoothies with gusto — or at least every day
5. work-out as prescribed
6. watch lots of film
7. ask questions if they don’t understand
8. integrate what they’re told by coaches quickly
9. don’t get arrested
Being nice to little old ladies is just a bonus.
Think he might add “don’t get popped on a piss test and get suspended for 4 games” to that list this offseason?
C:
Yes. I’m sure that’s one, too.
Except in the $EC of course.
Has any one had the chance to watch Za’Darius Smith? He played on the other side of Bud Dupree. Looks like a big/long late round pass rushing option. Thoughts?
Re: The Myth of Jimmy Johnson’s Hiring & What He Did When He Arrived
On February 25, 1989, Jimmy Johnson became the Cowboys head coach and czar of personnel — from drafting to trades all the way down to scouting.
Turns out, the 49ers — not the Cowboys — wanted to hire him first.
When Johnson joined Dallas, he took advantage of the personnel people already in place.
______________
In late January 1989, after Bill Walsh retired following the 49ers’ SB win over the Bengals, San Francisco owner Ed DeBartolo contacted Jimmy Johnson and asked if he would succeed Walsh. (Reportedly, per the NYDN, Walsh told the players in their departure meeting that Johnson would in fact be taking over.)
Johnson, however, wanted total control over personnel. DeBartolo wasn’t ready to give that to him yet. So the deal fell apart. And on January 27, 1989, George Seifert became Walsh’s in-house successor.
But for DeBartolo — the “go to guy” for any new NFL owner wanting to know the ropes — Jimmy Johnson looked like the next great NFL coach.
______________
One month later, Jerry Jones was about to close on a $140 million deal to buy the Cowboys and Texas Stadium. And, as part of the deal, Jones agreed to be the guy who first Tom Landry.
Jones needed a new head coach.
It’s true Jones and Johnson were UArk teammates and roommates on the road. And they remained casually in touch over the years as alumni. But as far as planning on Jones owning an NFL team and Johnson coaching it, that makes for a good story — and that’s all it was.
DeBartolo was the NFL’s version of Midas at that point. Every new owner turned to him for guidance (including Jeffrey Lurie).
So Jerry Jones did the smart thing . . . he hired Johnson, whose near ascension in SF was no secret
______________
When Johnson arrived in Dallas, he brought some of his college assistant coaches, like Wannstadt, Davis, and Campo.
On the personnel side, however, Johnson wanted experience.
So he kept as his top lieutenants 3 people already with the Cowboys: Dick Mansberger, who’d started as a scout with Dallas in 1965; John Wooten, a former player and long-time scout/personnel guy; and Bob Ackles who handled contracts.
In 1990, though, Johnson did add a personnel guy from UMiami.
A kind named Tom Ciskowski, who’d been a recruiter and scout for him in college. It’s Ciskowski who’s credited for pushing the Cowboys to draft HOF OG Larry Allen (allegedly threatening to punch Larry Lacewell in the mouth if he didn’t select Allen in Rd 2 – 1993; Lacewell ran the drafts after Johnson left).
Today, Ciskowski remains with the Cowboys as Asst Director of Player Personnel.
Boomer Esiason tells Chris Christie that his Jerry Jones hug was creepy:
http://crooksandliars.com:8080/cltv/2015/01/chris-christies-weird-celebration
After Mariota, there sure do seem to be a lot of PAC-12 players on Walter Football’s top 10 QB list, most pegged to go in the 4th to 6th rounds.
Assuming Kelly can’t get Mariota, might one of these guys be a development prospect?
Of the Pac-12 QBs who actually declare this year, I only want Hundley and he might even be a late 1st.
Hundley shouldn’t be taken before the third. Given how little he’s progressed as a passer, I wouldn’t want him before the fourth, and mid to late fourth at that.
For me he actually looked better as a passer this year. Of course he isnt a finished product, but I also believe Mora is a terrible coach for any mobile QB.
“assuming Kelly can’t get Mariota” — I thought this was drilled through months ago — there no way, zero, zilch Mariota will be an Eagle from a draft pick. Better odds of seeing a unicorn with two heads.
It *can* be done — assuming Tampa wants to deal.
The question is only, “at what price.”
yes — and science can create a 2 headed unicorn — it’ll never ever ever ever happen…
Relatively speaking of course. One shouldn’t speak in absolutes.
I never said it would. Or should.
I’ve only said there’s a framework under which it could be done. And, based on past deals, it’s not as ridiculous as what Washington did.
If Kelly wants Marioto, then he’d be foolish not to explore whether a deal he’d stomach could be done.
Fools make that trade. Chips mamma didn’t raise no fool. Doesn’t matter what Kelly wants. It’s what makes business sense. Moving from 20 to 1 makes 0 sense.
Just like it makes sense to give Kelly the personnel reins it makes sense to let him draft Mariotta if that’s what he thinks the key to the system is.
I think he likes Nick, but I wouldn’t be surprised (nor would anyone) if he moved up to grab a guy that could run all aspects of his system.
EYF:
Moving from 20 to 1 — without knowing the cost — makes no sense.
Let’s leave it there.
That what I meant by saying “assuming Kelly can’t get Mariota”. It was attempt to steer the conversation away from that extreme improbability, which you’ve now thwarted.
I want to like Hundly, I really, really do. But I’m freaked out by his throwing motion, which looks choppy. I don’t know if it’s Tebow choppy, but it’s choppy.
If we took him, I would be happy, but in the back of my mind I would be thinking about Matt Barkley 2.0; good “value” move on paper, but unlikely to actually bare fruit.
Bryce Petty looks like a scrapper to me and that’s about it. Keep in mind that I have a bias against QBs with names like Cade, Blaine, or Bryce, so I may not be the best person to ask on this one.
Here’s another unrelated point to consider. So much talk has been about the friction between Howie and Chip, and I don’t doubt that there was some. But it may not be in the way we’re thinking. It may have been more organizational friction than personal friction.
Consider the rumors talking about how Howie’s scouting department were getting pissed off at the coaches ignoring their slotting on draft day. I don’t recall the source but it’s been cited numerous times. I”m too lazy to track it down. As we know, the scouting department prior to this reorg was led by Howie. All the scouts reported to him, including many well-respected guys with many years of experience.
Up to now, the narrative has been about how “football guys hate Howie b/c he’s not a football guy”. But I think that narrative is driven by the knuckle-dragging Philly.com hellspawn rather than common sense. Howie had a lot of “football guys” working for him and by all accounts doing a pretty good job.
Now if there was friction between the scouts and the coaches (i.e., Kelly) on draft day, that doesn’t paint a picture of football guys versus non-football guys. That paints a picture of football guys against football guys, in other words your garden variety organizational rivalry and friction. This sort of thing happens everywhere. Ask your HR department how they feel about your payroll department and you’ll find a similar dynamic.
This is just supposition, of course, but my guess is that the conversation Kelly had with Lurie was about removing that organizational friction by placing the coaches and scouting/personnel departments under the same roof, reporting to the same guy. This may not have been such a personal thing as much as him identifying a weakness in the organizational structure and trying to come up with a way to fix it. I would guess at the very least that’s how it was sold to Lurie, even if there was a personal element in there somewhere.
I guess what I’m saying is, while there may be some soap opera bullshit going on, I don’t have an irrational hatred of Howie that naturally forces me to believe that everyone hates him. So I think there is something else going on, and I don’t believe that it has to be as sinister and ugly as everyone is trying to tell themselves.
Yeah, that’s what it seems like to me too
Maybe Chip just thinks Howie is kind of a dickhead and finds him difficult to work with.
I don’t think that would cause them to rearrange the draft board… That makes it seems like they didn’t consider the parameters chip and the other coaches set out
May be much truth to all this.
Consistent with the theory (some have tendered) that Roseman and the scouts were not “getting it.”
That is, they — or maybe just HR — weren’t seeing the board the way Kelly wants the board to be seen.
And that may include the arbitrage aspects of the draft, too.
My thoughts are this ….. Howie was essentially a high paid, over promoted, player personnel intern, who Jeff Lurie wrongly gave the rains to run a NFL player personnel department. He failed miserably for several years ( 2008 – 2011 ) until he finally realized ( and admitted to himself ) what he didn’t know. He finally decided to hire ( and listen to / value ) real ” football ” people’s guidance and began to make better decisions – i.e. ( drafting best player available / follow your board. ) See – 2012 draft. He smartly decided to stop playing fantasy football and decided to become a manager / facilitator of the personnel department. He realized that it became more important to begin drafting the ” RIGHT ” players, and not ” Howie ” drafting great players. This, I believe, is a ability that must be ( learned ) to become a ” great ” manager of people. He may have finally realized that success is best achieved from the sum of the parts, and not on individual performance and recognition. Unfortunately for Howie, it appears to have come just in time for Kelly to feel the need to take control of personnel. We will never know how much Roseman has improved as a personnel department manager, unless he resurfaces with another team or possibly, if / when Chip Kelly leaves in several years.
There are a couple of issues with your scenario:
Why did Laurie give Roseman more power if he had “failed miserably for several years”. It seems much more likely that he was the voice in the room with the greatest accuracy.
Also, you say in 2012 that he finally decided to listen to others, but as I understand things, while he pursued Gamble in 2012, he didn’t hire him or anyone else for that role. Which is why 2012 is usually seen as “Howie’s draft”
#1 ) I don’t discount Roseman’s influence on the 2012 draft. This is what I stated. I believe he FINALLY learned to value / listen to, and utilize the input of the ( football ) people that worked under him. #2 ) Lurie’s number one goal is to enjoy a ” profitable ” NFL franchise. The Super Bowl, is a secondary ( but much desired ) goal. Roseman replaced Banner as Lurie’s ” money guy ” and therefore became Luries ( ipso facto ) most important employee / confidant. Is it a reach for you to believe / understand that ALMOST any employer will overlook many employee indiscretions, as long as the employee continues to make the owner a lot of money ?
This post is not unrelated at all – quite germain, and contains great points.
Personally, the “efficiency” argument would not have won me over if I were in Lurie’s shoes… All of the points in Tommy’s post would have kept me from making the move to give Chip the GM role – at least for now.
But obviously Lurie has concluded that Chip is a really special talent, and that he and Rosenman (and Don S.) can work together. I’m crossing my fingers that that is the case.
Ah, fuck Don. He’s the real bad guy in all this… 🙂
If the Jets add another QB early in the draft, would any here be oppose to Geno Smith battling it out with Nick Foles?
I know Geno hasnt been great, but guy do have some great tools to work with
I wouldn’t be opposed to him battling it out with Matt Barkley
Geno’s very unpolished, but he has upside. Easy to be confused about what and who Kelly wants at QB. He’s said that throwing the ball is #1 and his selections have backed that up. Then, we watch Mariota dominate at the collegiate level as a dual threat and can’t help but wonder what would happen. I’d love if the Eagles would select/trade for a more athletic QB to develop.
I see no point in adding Geno of RG3… If your strengths arent Acciracy and reading coverages, I have no interest in you as a QB…
..
Not to mention both arent even close to the leader FOles is. FOles COMMANDS respect from every veteran in our Locker room…. THOSE PLAYERS WONT!
I wouldn’t want to start either RG3 or Geno next season, but I’d love to see if Chip could develop one of them. Both have really good tools to work with and despite your disdain for athleticism in QB’s it’s clearly a weapon especially when you regularly run the read-option.
Pretty sure every veteran wants to win. A few more bad ints and Foles wont command anything
from Peter King: I think if I were the Buffalo Bills, this is exactly what I’d do: Hire Mike Shanahan.
how does he make so much money offering opinions like this?
RNE:
Isn’t there more to PKing’s prescription . . .
Not just hire Shanahan, but also trade for Jay Cutler?
are you saying that improves his suggestion?
He had me at “hire Shanny” – heck no. But he wants to trade for Cutler, who is getting paid elite money? trade, like trade an asset? double heck no, both to cutler, his contract and giving up anything.
No.
Total shot at PK.
Shanny is as good as most retreads. By trade for Jay i think that would be a bills-favorable trade that would include cutler and a pick. Plus if Chi-town has paid his bonus maybe that makes his salary look less bad? And Shanny drafted cutler i believe.
Problem is they aren’t trading cutler, they have no one else. They have to find a coach that can work with him.
Peter King is like the Star Wars prequels: absolutely horrible, but you are glad they exist because their exasperating idiocy leads to some pretty good satire:
http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/2015/01/pity-the-poor-pickpocket-who-touched-peter-kings-ass.html
http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace/
I have one question that hasn’t been discussed much on these boards. How will the Eagles proceed with team first, hard working, overpriced veterans. Thus far, Chip has played these guys consistently over cheaper, arguably more talented, but less developed players. Celek over Ertz and Cole over Graham are the obvious examples but you also could look at Trey Burton and James Casey. Another overpriced but great team guy is Demeco. We all know that under Joe Banner, they’d all be gone. I was hoping for restructures from many if not all of these guys, but will they be willing to do so since most of them still start? Kelly clearly values them and he undeniably has final say on the roster now. What is their incentive to restructure?
This takes us to Roseman still being on the team and nominally in charge of contracts. Roseman was trained by the hatchet Banner, but has shown signs of being more willing to value older players. If Roseman comes to Kelly and says “Demeco makes too much money, we need to cut him or restructure,” how does Kelly respond?
Celek over Ertz made sense in that we need Celek’s blocking. Ertz still played a fair big part. Not sure what your point about Burton and Casey is? Neither played that much on offense. Demeco was still very good.
I could care less how much a guy makes or how old he is if he performs. Cole, Celek and Meco all performed in 2014
Burton and Casey are an issue because both are great special teamers, but one makes beans and the other about 5mil a season. For a guy who’s only real role is ST, 5mil a season is a poor allocation of resources. Same is true of the older vets. Cole is now a work hard try hard guy who no longer scares anyone. Celek has become a block first TE who isn’t feared in the passing game at all. Demeco is a 2down LB who is a major liability in pass coverage. All still have value, but it’s nowhere near what they’re being paid.
But who should have gotten Casey’s spot? Remember Burton was added after FA
I’m thinking more about moving forward, but just so we understand, I had no problem with any of these vets being on the team this season. I actually really like all of them. Trent’s one of my favorites and I respect the hell out of Celek for working so hard to become an above average blocker.
Why should we care about what Casey makes when the Eagles are so far under the cap?
Is his presence on the roster preventing other signings?
Avoiding bad contracts and being willing to get out of bad contracts, even for good people, is how you stay so far under the cap. Then, when a player you truly covet who fits your culture and scheme becomes available and you have to back up the brinks truck, you have the money to do it.
But Casey isn’t really a bad contract. If they cut him last offseason it would have only been 2 mil of dead money against the cap. If they cut him now, he’s zero against the cap.
Which means he either absolutely should be cut or restructured this year. Here’s my question, he’s a Kelly guy. He plays teams and he’s a team first player who expected to be a pass catcher here and hasn’t complained at all about the lack of playing time. Will Kelly agree to cut him, and does Roseman have the authority to make the call? I worry we’ll end up with a team constructed more like we saw under Ray Rhodes than under Andy Reid in his best years moving forward.
I see your point. Casey should definitely be restructured (or released) this year. Who initiates that discussion? Who lays out the list of players that need to be renegotiated?
Chip has final say, but I think we all know he’s not the one reviewing contracts for renegotiation.
Casey will be an easy restructure he’s got 0 value (no stats). I think they can clean some of that stuff up this offseason. I think they have a dollar amount for the TE position, they probably think they are getting a lot of value there and maybe they are if you treat ST as another group (like offense and defense) and not just a training ground for rookies.
But both Casey and Burton were involved in ST TDs (i believe multiple) this year that led to games won — what’s that worth?
Somehow my initial point got lost here 😛
I’m wondering how/who exactly will be making these calls. With Kelly basically trying to shove Howie out of as much of personnel decisions as possible, does he have the authority to call Casey and tell him, restructure or your gone? How does this mesh with Kelly having final say on the roster? Kelly and Roseman are still going to have to work together some and I worry whether they’ll be able to do it given how contentious things go this offseason.
Casey is a sunk cost–They signed him before Ertz was drafted, and so the contract was a bit more than necessary. It’s not so much that the team can’t live with it, though. There’s no reason to cut him or restructure him because Ertz is still making nothing on his rookie contract, so they’re probably investing comparable money in the TE position as their peers (citation necessary). And he’s better than your random street FA as a 3rd TE.
Would the same reasoning apply to Kendricks and Ryans:
DeMeco at $6.9MM may be expensive in absolute dollars. But in relative dollars, he’s cheap — because the the Eagles’ two starting ILBs will be making less than $8M.
_____________
In the Banner/Roseman era, that’s not how this team did business. Or most other teams.
A player with Ryans’ age and coming off an injury is in a weak negotiating position.
Do you expect the Eagles to force Ryans to take a sizeable pay cut?
Regardless of how the ( Roseman demotion / Kelly promotion ) happened, the important thing that is being missed is ( why it had to happen ? ) How it happened, was far from ideal. The biggest question is who’s at fault, and why it had to happen …..? The obvious answer is because of bad executive decisions made by the owner, Jeffery Lurie. Lurie has followed the wrong ( NFL model ) from the beginning of his purchase of the Eagles. Luries # 1 man whom he exclusively relied on has ” always ” been the MONEY guy. From the beginning his name was, Joe Banner. I’m not saying that Joe Banner was not important to the ” ultimate ” success ( financially ) for Mr. Lurie and the Eagles organization …. far from it. My issue is that there ( has to be ) a separation of the ” football ” and ” financial ‘ departments / people. This ( was not ) the case with the previous Eagles structures,and has continued with ( Banner to Roseman ), until Roseman was demoted. Kelly, did what ( had to be done ) to fix the mistakes that were made repeatedly within the player personnel department and the loss of quality people. Quality people were continually ( fired / let go / passed over ) – see : ( Marc Ross – Giants / Jason Licht – Buccaneers / Ryan Grigson ( passed over for Howie ) / Tom Gamble – 49ers / Tom Modrack, etc. ) Mr. Lurie has continued to ( reward ) his ” financial ” confidants ( salary cap / business administration ) people with promotions and continued to greatly ( UNDERVALUE ) football people !! Within a successful well run NFL organization, Howie Roseman would have NEVER been promoted to the ( most important person ) within the organization …. the TOP person, controlling ” ALL ” player acquisitions. Regardless of ( WHO ) was responsible for the 2010 and 2011 drafts / free agents, 2013 free agents and the lack luster 2014 draft, the ultimate responsibility falls on the CEO and owner of the Eagles for valuing cap guy over football guys. This is not just hunch or a possibility ….. look at the history of promotions, firings and results. Mr. Lurie promoted one of his ( trusted and valued ) business / money guys to run his organization, at the expense of his loyal fans. Kelly had NO choice to demand these changes …. and ( as long as he hires a great football guy ) we should all thank him.
You conveniently ignore that Roseman has done a commendable job since being promoted. He oversaw the best draft we had in the last five years. He talked Kelly out of selecting at least two players a round before he needed just this last season. Roseman’s strength as a GM according to those who work with him was his willingness to listen and elicit opinions of his ‘football guys.’ For any business to succeed, you need to balance both, unless you have an owner who is willing to piss tons of money away on a vanity project. Ask the Raiders and Cowboys how well that works in the salary cap era.
My contention is that Roseman finally learned to ( listen to / value ) football people, and not try to be ” Ron Wolf or Bill Polian ” by himself. I think he had a big part in the 2012 draft, and has greatly improved in his management of the personnel department. I believe that the problem is that ( US ) Eagles fans have had to suffer through years ( 2010 and 2011 ) of terrible drafts that have set the team back for many years. I think that this happened because Lurie allowed a inexperienced employee to essentally be a intern, while training in the most important position ( that influences winning ) within the organization.
1. Howie wasn’t an intern. He’d been in the front office for a decade. Yes he went to law school and his background is in contracts, but how do you think he was determining fair market value for players? It certainly wasn’t a crystal ball. He had extensive training and experience with player evaluation.
2. At the time of Howie’s promotion to GM, Reid was the Czar of all football moves anyways. Why promote a “football guy” (stupid term) when Andy is going to do what he is going to do anyways?
3. Every GM, “football guy” or not builds the board based off scouts grades, and with coaches input.
Are you serious with those comments ? Roseman was hired by Joe Banner and was coddled and pulled along on Banners coat tails. Roseman ” NEVER ” would have had the access to Lurie and the circles that Banner traveled in, and had the ” advantages ” that come with those type of relationships. Roseman as hired in 2000 and spent those seven years performing varing forms of business administation duties. He did not join the ” official ” player personnel ( football guy ) side, until 2008. Ironically, his ” first ” job in the player personnel side was as the Vice President of Player Personnel. Do you realize how long it takes people in ( normal ) NFL organizations to ascend to that type of position ? Obviously not, so i’ll educate you. You will have had to have been a scouting assistant or a college scout. Then you would be promoted to a regional scout. Then if your lucky you would get promoted to national scout or vice president of college scouting. etc. , etc. , etc. The point is he was promoted to a position that he NEVER earned, and NEVER would have had an opportunity to achieve so quickly without the access and assistance of Joe Banner. The NFL is littered with player personnel people who were jettisoned to make room for Roseman to ascend to the GM position. He went from salary cap to GM in 3 years. If you can’t understand how this type of cronyism must of created serious turmoil and discourse within the Eagles scouting and player personnel ranks, than you are kidding yourself. Experienced quality people were passed over many, many times to promote Howie to his position. To answer your question, Howie’s area of expertise IS ( fair market value ) but NOT ( player evaluation. )
Thank you for that low brow pandering walk through career advancement in the professional scouting world field with strange quotations. Knowing two formers Eagles scouts as well as having contemplated it as a career I was COMPLETELY ignorant as to the career ladder in a front office.
Also go look at most scouts and front office executives career history. Everybody bounces around. There’s 32 GM jobs. People move laterally all the time.
My original point was that Howie has spent thousands of hours in a film room improving his ability to scout. He’s by no means the best scout in the world, but he’s not remotely out of his depth either. Also that you don’t have to be a “football person” to be a good General Manager. People gave Theo Epstein for being a 20 something nerdy Harvard grad. Would you prefer the “baseball guy” who “climbed the ladder” Rueben Amaro or Theo?
Listen , you obviously chose to ignore several pivotal points in my comments ….. so I will reiterate, for your satisfaction. #1 ) Pertaining to my ” strange ” quotations comment …. talk about reaching for low hanging fruit, and grabbing for straws. #2 ) One of my major points of contention was / is ( how ) Howie got the job. Obviously, Howie has learned a lot about watching film and how to evaluate a players skill set. This would happen by osmosis, just by watching others do it and listening to them speak about it. He DID NOT have to take the same route, that the vast majority of others within the industry had to take. He DID NOT have to spend years, or a decade on the road putting his name, reputation and CAREER on the line when he handed in his scouting summaries. This very critical FACT ( that you CHOSE to ignore, and call – low brow pondering ) explained the normal NFL scouting / player personnel career path – for a significant reason. #3 ) I don’t think you have to be a GREAT ( football person ) to be a very good to excellent GM in the NFL. What you do have to do, is surround yourself with GREAT ( football people ) , LISTEN to them, and not let your EGO get in the way, of utilizing the experts input. I sincerely believe that Roseman had finally learned to do this. See – 2012 draft. #4 ) My contention is that Rubin Amaro got his position as a MLB GM, off of the coat tails of ( a REAL baseball guy – Pat Gillick. ) This is, and will ALWAYS be my fellings on HOW and WHY, Roseman was able to make his METEORIC rise to GM of a NFL franchise. If your so CONNECTED with previous Eagles scouts ….. ask them how they felt watching Joe Banner’s ( golden child ) protege, ascend so quickly over other scouts / player personnel people, who had VASTLY more experience and time employed within the Eagles player personnel department. Many individuals showed years of dedication and loyalty to the Eagles organization. These individuals were thanked and rewarded with the privilege of being able to watch ( Banner’s and Lurie’s ) boy, pole vault over them because of corporate cronyism. You can ask : Tom Heckert Jr. , Ryan Grigson , Jason Licht , Louis Riddick , etc. #5 ) Your not the ONLY person who read my comments on the NORMAL ( career ladder ) within a NFL player personnel department. I thought it would benefit some other readers, if I provided some information concerning the inner workings and promotion process of the vast majority of successful NFL organizations. Summation – I DID NOT just give my OPINION, my goal was to, thoroughly provide ( factual history and information ) to enlighten any readers who are interested in the inner workings and machinations that go on within EVERY business or corporate structure. My desire was MOSTLY to offer MY thoughts on how cronyism has continued to negatively effect the Eagles organization, and why the ( Kelly / Roseman ) upheaval was inevitable, for better or worse.
Heckert’s a weird example to use. He was the equivalent to what this new “GM” will be under Andy Reid. He decided to leave on his own to pursue the Browns job with more autonomy. So not sure how you can argue Howie jumped him.
Aside from the year he got to pick first overall has Grigson really done such an amazing job that we should be crying over spilt milk?
Has Licht?
Riddick has worked in an NFL front office less time than Howie, and at the time of Howie’s promotion to GM, Riddick had only been with the Eagles 2 years. So there’s no loyalty to the organization there. He was then the Eagles Director of Pro Personnel and was so highly desired in the league that he now works in Bristol, CT.
You argue that Howie’s ego stopped him from being successful because he wouldn’t surround himself with good football people. But the very people you think should have gotten the job were his top lieutenants.
PLEASE people, do your research. I KNOW this information UPSIDE DOWN and BACKWARDS. Look at the player personnel people who were working for the Eagles, and look at their accrued experience ( not just with the Eagles. ) Now factor where Roseman was in reference to his position / experience, when these people were let go / passed over to promote Roseman. Every step of the way people were pushed out ( Heckert was told to look for a job ) , Licht was let go, Grigson was passed over, etc, etc. People had 7 – 9 + years of experience, half or more of that came while working for the Eagles. Howie got promoted over them. People were fired or let go, so that Roseman could take their jobs. Do the research, it’s all there in black and white. In 2008 Jason Licht was a veteran of player personnel and scouting with 12 years of experience ( 3 of which were with the Eagles ) and he was fired to promote Roseman. Roseman actually took Licht’s previous position of, Vice President of Player Personnel. At the time of his promotion Roseman had NEVER worked as a scout, had never even been employed within ANY teams ( or the Eagles ) personnel department. Two years later he was promoted to the GM of one of the NFL’s top market franchises. Priceless …..
Jarock, you ” quoted ” a EMPLOYEE of Howie Roseman, speaking about the virtues of Howie Roseman. What did you expect him to say ? What would you say about your boss, if you were brought into the HR department and asked questions about your manager ? Do you realize that the salary cap money ( not spent ) regardless of why it wasn’t spent, has a direct impact on Mr. Lurie’s profits ? If you want the Eagles to win a Super Bowl , the MOST important person Lurie employees is the ( Football Guy. ) If you are rooting for Lurie to make money ….. go ahead and cheer for his ( Salary Cap – GM. ) Fact – It took Roseman 4 years of being involved with and then running the Eagles draft to finally understand that you draft the ( BEST player available on the board ) ….. not the Senior Bowl stand outs, not team captains over iffy character but great skill players. During this time of Howie’s ( learning / interning ) the Eagles roster was decimated by poor drafts for several crucial years.
I disagree with your general premise, philliesfan123. I’m old enough to remember the misery of when Ray Rhodes was given complete control of the roster. Ray was a football lifer. Andy Reid was given complete control and the Eagles went down hill. Bill Parcells won two superbowls, but in neither was he the gm. Once given complete control, he never got back, and he himself admits to getting too arrogant. Whether you like Howie or Banner, the most successful teams have strong business minds working in tandem with great football minds. The Eagles most successful years in their history have been with strong business minds either in charge or with a large say in how they operate. You gripe about the salary cap, but do you really want to be constantly trying to figure out whether you can keep your good players from year to year like the Redskins and Cowboys?
I have no idea where you disagree with me ? I don’t think that Chip should have full control. I think the Packers, Giants, Steelers, etc. have the best model. Great GM’s and great coaches …. but each has their own job to do. Andy Reid won with players that were drafted by Tom Modrack ( Trotter, Dawkins, Tra thomas, Ike Reese, McNabb )and later the combination of Tom Heckert and Marc Ross ( Lito Sheppard, Sheldon Brown, Brian Westbrook, Michael lewis, Derrick Burgess, Correll Buckhalter . ) After those player personnel people were let go, or fired and all the players they drafted were gone, Reid was left with all the drek that he, Roseman and Banner brought in. It was a very fast slide there after. That’s why they tried to go all ” Dream Team ” ….. piss poor drafting! Bring back Marc Ross.
Banner was very much the #2 through the years you mention. His business first model is the one you have been criticizing. Howie is the product of both Banner, Reid, Modrak, Heckert, and Ross. I disagree with your premise that only ‘football people’ should be in charge of a team. Banner was a large part of the success of those Reid teams and he’s as far from a ‘football person’ as you get.
The Phillies are an example of what can happen when you put ‘sports people’ in charge and try to ignore the business side. They’re now stuck with a seriously declining core that can’t be traded or let go without financial devastation. On the other hand, the organizations you mentioned, Packers, Giants, Steelers, toss in the Ravens, they all have smart good business people working hand in hand with great football minds.
You’re free to despise Roseman, and there are legitimate reasons to dislike him. I just have a problem with blaming him for everything that hasn’t worked quite as we’d hoped in the last few years.
Perhaps the reason it seems like money guys under Lurie have fared better than talent evaluators is because the Eagles have done an excellent job managing salaries and the cap, but haven’t always done so well evaluating talent.
You would prefer he fire the guys doing a good job and extend the guys doing a poor job?
It always makes me smile when the firing of Modrak is cited as a mistake when he went on pilot the Bills to 10 straight years of missing the playoffs.
If you want to say Lurie made a mistake in firing someone, shouldn’t that person have actually done well after leaving the Eagles? When someone fails after being fired, isn’t that firing usually considered justified in hindsight?
Actually you missed my points altogether. My point was to keep the departments completely separate, and to ( value / reward ) each on it’s on merits. Each are essential to putting a great roster on the field, and maintaining as many of those parts as possible. My contention is that the turnover of quality people in the player personnel department ( and poor drafting / free agents ) was perpetuated and effected by the promoting of and insertion of ” money ” people, into that department. See – Roseman.
So, fire the owner? Not arguing your points, but criticizing the owner is somewhat pointless.
Nothing I say ( or you ) will ” Change ” anything. My point was to express ( my belief ) that this story goes FAR beyond the ( Chip vs Howie ) narrative. This ( again – in my opinion ) is a issue that has been festering within the Eagles ( player personnel ) structure, for many, many years. Have at it.
I’m going to respect everything you write, whether I agree or not, because of your avatar. I’m afraid 2015 might not be kind to the Phils, my friend.
With all the discussion about Chip wanting to draft players earlier and being talked into waiting (only 2 examples so far), I wonder, did Chip miss out on any players he coveted because Howie incorrectly told him to wait? I am sure that had to have happened, and it would be a more fair discussion to know both sides, the stuff Howie & Chip got right and what they each got wrong.
Good point. I’ve been quick to note Howie’s helping Chip on the Matthews and Hart picks, but we don’t know if or how many players Kelly missed out on.
Well, they did have to trade up to get Matthews. So if Smith does turn out to be a bust, you could have just used that #1 on Matthews and not lost the pick you traded to move up in the second. And maybe Smith gets picked so you take another player with that 2nd and get better value for it.
But that’s really a back-asswards way of looking at it. Howie was right. They didn’t need to take Matthews in the first. The potentially botched Smith pick doesn’t change that.
but that doesn’t answer my question, what if chip really wanted player X in the 3rd, Howie said, no you can get him in the 4th but he ends up being taken a few picks later?
Being out by 3/4 picks howie would still be right as opposed to the 27/28 picks earlier that Kelly wanted the guy. I suppose neither guy would be right, Howie would just be less wrong
is picking a player too early a bigger offense than missing out on a player? I would argue the opposite, I would rather take a player I covet earlier than expected than miss out on that player because I was too worried about valuation of outsiders.
Yea, I think most of us would agree there, which is why we’ve been hearing the “Howie told Andy he could wait for Russel Wilson” thing lately.
I’m on the opposite side of this one. To an extent, you are both correct, but since the reality of the draft is only about 20% of guys ‘hit’ after the first two rounds, I’m leary of wasting draft picks. It’s easy to look back in hindsight and say ‘sure, we picked him earlier than expected, but he turned into a great player.’ Statistics say that doesn’t happen nearly as often as we’d like to think.
What statistics? If you want to bring math in, bring examples. Quite frankly I think most of the “statistics say” arguments are largely anecdotal and I want to re-examine the factual evidence. I have yet to see a true statistical study done of draft success and the correlation between good drafts and organizational stability (i.e. seeing if it is good drafting or good coaching/coaching stability). If you know of one, please send me the location so I can see how they did there study. And if you know of where I can get the source data, please send me that as well, it is the first thing I plan to do once my other obligations are done.
Ok, here’s an example:
http://datascopeanalytics.com/what-we-think/2012/05/01/the-chance-of-a-bust-in-the-nfl-draft
Couple years out of date, but it illustrates my point. This is league wide, not organization specific, but most articles I’ve read will tell you even good teams miss at a fairly high percentage
thank you I will check it out.
You might like http://eaglesrewind.com/ as well. Eagles fan and a number cruncher. I don’t agree with all all of his conclusions, but he clearly has a math background and he examines all sorts of stuff including the draft using statistics.
I enjoy some of his stuff and on the whole he seems to do good work, but have some reservations about assumptions he makes. Because I haven’t had enough time to really review his methodology and thought process I really can’t dispute any of his conclusions. He does seem more obsessed with predictions than review, which is to be expected I guess.
I actually also found a scientific paper that came out of a university physics department (can’t remember which one) analyzing what statistics should be used in predicting football games, but I haven’t had the time to read it in detail.
Did some digging and found his article specifically on the draft. Once again, I don’t agree with all of his conclusions, but his numbers appear to be solid.
http://eaglesrewind.com/2014/05/07/hacking-the-draft/
thank you again. I will definitely go through his stuff before draft (assuming I finish my own work in time). If I remember, he based his draft prediction on chaos theory and I need to review exactly what he did to model it.
that is the perfect example of what I was asking.
Based on our past experiences with the Eagles organization, if something like this happened don’t you think it would have been leaked by now?
LIkely, but not certain. For all that I’m worried about Kelly’s relationship with Howie, he has shown a real unwillingness to criticize his coworkers, even when they deserve it. The ‘worst’ that I’ve heard Kelly say about Howie is that ‘He’s a hell of a cap guy.’ It’s still a compliment, it just falls well short of what you expect to value in a gm.
depends on the source and the sources loyalties. The leaks have seemed oddly pro Roseman leading me to think thats the only side we have heard from.
If he takes JMatt Rd 1… maybe we have a new CB or S… or maybe we have MSIII in the second rather than 1st… who knows.. im happy with the move.. HOWIE your not FIRED!!! just demoted with a pay increase..
After hearing about both JMatt and Hart I’m a bit more worried than I was when hearing just about Hart; but the fact remains that Chip listened. That’s what kind of has me scratching my head, people are flipping out over two anecdotes where Chip did the “right” thing.
I mean, I’m worried by any coups that take place, and this is definitely a coup, but they more or less agreed with each other on the talent. I’m a bit more worried about the disgruntled scouts story, but at the end of the day, Kelly’s conceded to good advice.
It’s easy to be honest and forthcoming about mistakes that were avoided. But what about the mistakes that weren’t avoided? If we hear about them it will come in the form of unverifiable leaks from unnamed sources, not from the mouths of Kelly and Roseman.
Which is why Chip joked about the Hart thing, but the Matthews thing had to come from sources because it’s linked to the Smith pick.
Ok, but until those leaks happen then we’re just theorizing about things that we extrapolate from anecdotes.
After hearing about that, I wonder who wanted to stay pat, Roseman or Kelly. If he wanted OBJ and Ha-Ha, and Roseman talked him out of it to stay pat – then I can see why Kelly would be annoyed.
They had to move up to get JMatt, and gave up their other 3rd pick to get 4th and 5th rounders. We know that Roseman likes to have a lot of picks over moving up to get a player.
Maybe Kelly doesn’t like this approach and would have given up a 3rd to get Ha-Ha or OBJ. We won’t know because no one here was in the room. But I’m willing to wait and see how this plays out.
The reports I’ve read said that Howie was trying to move up for OBJ last year. After the draft, when Kelly was asked if they tried to move up, he said that teams were asking for too much. Now it’s possible that he actually would have been willing to give up what it would take to move up and Howie was resisting, but based on what he was saying it was at least partially Kelly’s call not to move up.
Ahhh, I do kind of remember that. All I’m saying is that it seems Kelly listens, but at the same time it seems there’s a disconnect between him and Roseman.
Is it the scouts are upset with Kelly or Roseman or both?
I think we’re microanalyzing things to death. For whatever reason, Chip and Howie didn’t have a great relationship. It doesn’t mean that either was necessarily doing something wrong. Some personalities clash. As far as the “scouts” go, from what I’ve read there different cliques amongst the scouts. Some were Team Howie. Some were Team Chip. That being the case, it does make sense to make it clear who the one boss is that everyone reports to is. That doesn’t mean that Roseman isn’t better qualified to run the personnel operation. However, Lurie bit the bullet to keep Chip.
Everyone wants to compare this to the Baalke/Harbaugh situation. In the aftermath of that debacle it looks like Baalke and Harbaugh may have butted heads but they did have respect for each other and that Harbaugh just genuinely hate Jed York.
The son of the owner is always going to win out over a coach.
Jed’s also the acting CEO, so he’s basically acting member of the ownership group.
now we know it wasn’t too much for OBJ…no matta what it was
maybe that’s a bone that Chip had with Howie (though 22 to 11 or 12 is far)
Didn’t Kelly already have a lot of control over the personnel side? Aside from say on final 53, he had measurables requirements (pretty strict), character requirements, etc. Gotta wonder how much flexibility there’d be.
Gotta think if Kelly wanted a player we would have gotten him. That’s what howie has said all along right?
Yes. Kelly had final say.
Maybe Kelly’s personnel power didn’t change at all.
But Roseman has been, by all accounts, entirely walled off from personnel — which was not the case before Friday.
Personally, I’d rather have Chip in charge of as much as possible. He has everything you would want in a manager in any field: vision, intelligence, work ethic, self reflection, and a relentless passion to optimize everything he can. He also appears to be extremely good at surrounding himself with experts in the things he doesn’t know. I think by having his own scouts and draft experts, he’ll trust and follow their opinion MORE, not less.
I like the idea of having a strong leader and a desk at which the buck will stop. I sure hope Chip is the guy. I just wish he had more of a track record in the NFL.
Interesting article by John Middlekauf contrasting Philly and SF. Doesn’t provide any details about what was going on between Kelly and Roseman(other than it was rumored to be dysfunctional), but praises Lurie for doing what it took to keep Kelly while it fell apart in SF.
http://www.thesidelineview.com/columns/nfl/nfl-owners-manual-what-not-do
Thanks for posting this. Some interesting tidbits:
“Rumors had been flying in league circles for months that the Eagles were every bit as dysfunctional as the 49ers. It was a ticking time bomb, sure to blow up — except it never did. Ownership refused to let it happen.”
“Reid didn’t talk to the media the day he was fired, but he did speak to the Eagles business employees with Lurie at his side in the cafeteria. There is a level of respect the Eagles’ owner commands through his actions; he doesn’t talk a big game, he just operates one. That’s why, since firing Andy Reid, Lurie’s organization has had back-to-back winning seasons and hasn’t skipped a beat. Even when waters got a little rough, he quickly navigated them to quieter seas.”
Lurie just doesn’t get enough credit for the job he’s done as the Eagles owner. I read so many articles about the antics that take place on other teams and I’m so glad we don’t have to put up with that here in Philly.
BUT HE’S SOOOOOO CHEAP! HE DOESN’T SPEND MONEY! Except for making Runyan, Kearse, and Assante the richest players at their positions. And signing free agents like it was madden in 2011.
BUT OTHERWISE HE’S a BAD OWNER cuz HE JUST WANTS TO MAKE MONEY AND NOT WINNNN!!! Because the few million dollars a year he’s allowed to be under the cap, is really making a substantial difference in the bottom line of a multibillionaire. Especially considering the extra income that would be generated in revenues from a Super Bowl run in the form of game day receipts, apparel sales, and expanding the fan base.
WE ARE LIKE A BILLION DOLLARS BELOW THE CAP! HE’S SO CHEAP. I get it, the concept of rolling over excess assets from one year to another year is a hard concept, that cell phone companies haven’t been doing it for years or anything.
lol . . . . too many fans the the nfl is just like playing Madden on franchise mode.
You don’t think more $$ would have resulted in better DBs? Do you think the FA approach over the last couple of years has hurt certain positions on the team?
No doubt we (over)pay players
FA corner market hasn’t exactly been crazy deep.
Agreed, but there were a handful of decent options over the last few years — very few coming in this offseason.
We reportedly only lost out on Keenan Lewis because he wanted to back to NOLA, not because of money.
Sean Smith, Vontae Davis, and Aqib Talib all are pretty unique characters.
Grimes, Verner, Munnerlyn are all too small.
http://walterfootball.com/freeagents2013CB.php
http://walterfootball.com/freeagents2014CB.php
I hear you — also didn’t realize Grimes was so old, he’s a guy I liked (though realize that he’s short).
I guess there weren’t a ton of options considering CK’s conditions. Be interesting to see if there’s exceptions as things go along.
Lewis wanting to go back to that hot bed of venereal disease rather than take more money to come here was brutal.
Do you want to be a little better now by wasting money or do you want that money when we are in position to compete for a super bowl?
With Nicky Stixx and a better secondary i honestly thought we’d be pretty close — we’d def be a 12-13 win team. How close do you need to “be”, we were ranked top 5 in the league for most of the year.
With better red zone play calling we’d be 12-4.
With a more effective red zone offense we could be 14-2. I think CK’s play calling was generally fine, i think over the course of the season he tried everything with a lot of different personnel groupings.
The best are the people who think the cap money we don’t spemd goes directly back into LURIE’s pocket.. As if we are paying players with Checks from Jeffrey’s personal bank account.. Smh
The only time the Lurie is cheap stuff was even close to valid or believable is when he first purchased the team there were rumors they lost out on a few free agents because the team was cash poor and lacked the liquidity to front huge signing bonuses needed to sign multiple top free agents. That hasn’t really been even close to the case since 95 or 96.
Exactly, If fans can’t forgive Lurie for a lack of liquidity 20 years ago, screw em. It’s a common problem. Kraft and Bischotti both needed some creative accounting to buy their teams.
I literally cannot think of an example where the Eagles threw their hands up at the roster and claimed “we done” like the Phillies did in 09, 10, 11, and 12.
The concept of cap rollover is one thing I wish more fans understood. The way I understand it, it’s more like compound interest than it is the cell phone plan. We can consistently overspend over the cap with smart management. Forever and ever until the crappy GMs realize how much we’re cheating the system and change the rule. But hey, we can give all that up just for one player.
Plus Jed York is only the owner of the Niners because his See You Next Tuesday mother stole the team from her brother Eddie DeBartolo.
PFF just announced their All-Pro Team and Jason Peters and Lane Johnson are their first team tackles on offense…for what it’s worth…
Shame we are trading Lane to get Mariota
http://www.jamspreader.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/tumblr_lokbhoKkeC1qafrh6.gif
Hah! I enjoying pissing peeps of too much
You’ve been warned.
http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/I-Will-Find-You-And-I-Will-Kill-You-Liam-Neeson-In-Taken.gif
I was going to make another Mariota joke but I will refrain still think it would be funny as hell if we did it, just for the reactions
Dnt poke the bear.
Because if you do, I’ll bludgeon you with Justin Gilbert for the rest of eternity.
I’d take him. Did you see his sick pick against the Colts!?!!? How many first round picks can the Brown’s screw up?
Did I miss something this season? Johnson was OK. Are there no other good RTs in the league?
so much that we won’t ever find out about. A Major part of the equation of evaluating chip or Hpwies GM ability is what trades and moves weren’t made, that would have been great or that would have been horrible
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For example, trading for V-Jax rumor. If it’s true that we had interest why didn’t tthe trade go thru? Who decided that the price was going to be too steep? Howie? Did chip agree with not trading a certain draft pick. And Hpwie told him no? Or did the asking price turn chip off as well as Howie?
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Even if we find out who was responsible for all the Moves we made, we will never know about who was right or wrong in all the moves we didn’t make. And without that big piece of info, it’s really hard for us to know if chip getting this power is a good thing. Of if its going to end up hurting us
So, forget about the past and worry about the future. From here on out, Chip will get all the glory when Eagles do well and all the blame for any failures.
Looks like great advice. Too bad I suck at taking it.
kinda funny, Howie will have gotten through his entire tenure as a personnel guy with nothing bad that can be pinned squarely to him, while getting credited with a few good drafts/ trades. If things go sour, people will think he’s made of Teflon the way he always slips through blame-free.
Yeah, I’ve noted that Howie’s made of teflon as well. Every bad decision has had a caveat. I still think he’s a good GM, but you do have to wonder about that.
Don’t hate the playa, hate the game.
I know we’ve been talking a lot about the draft but is hard to project draft needs until after fee agency so I wanted to shift focus there and ask for opinions on Buster Skrine, Kareem Jackson, Jerry Hughes, Brian Orakpo, Jason Worilds and Ron Parker. Just wanted thoughts on guys not named Maxwell and Houston
If we don’t pay to keep BG from becoming a free agent, you won’t see the Eagles pony up 20mil guaranteed for a Longterm deal for guys like Sheard, Houston, or Worlids.
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Big Jerry Hughes fan, but no reason to pay for him unless we decide to trade away Vinny Curry..
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Doubt any of those corners are a good enough upgrade to replace the continuity with Cary and No.an..
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I don’t see us signing ANY of those names, even tho I like Some of them
you think BG is worth paying? I sort of dont, would rather MSII be there and him HAVE to play. While BG can get better I don’t think he has a high ceiling as an OLB.
He is worth paying depending how you write the contract… I’m down with 5yr 42mil. 20mil in Guaramteed which will be paid to him the first two years, 6mil of it in signing bonus, the other 14mil in guaranteed salary over the first two years. If you want to get out of it after the 2nd year we eat 3.6 in dead money, after year 3, we would eat 2.4 in dead money. After year 4 we eat 1.2mil..
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So basically it’s two years of Guaramteed money, and then you can get out of it pretty easy,especially after the 3rd year… If he continues to produce, then he can be here for 5yrs and make the entire 42mil, by then it will be time to extend Marcus… If he can’t play at a high level for 5 years, we get to have him for two years, by then Mqrcus and possibly Dion Jordan should be looking too good to keep on the BENCH.
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BG gets his money, we get to keep him to transition to the next era of OLBs…… You need ATleast 3, 4 pass rushing OLBs anyway, right now, we only have two, Barwin and Marcus…. Trade for :Dion, sigń BG and we will be set at that very important position
I’m sorry but I’m not a fan of BG while I respect your opinion on him off course I personally would rather not throw a lot of cash at him
Fair enough. I’d rather overpay and tag him for a year, then to go into next season with Marcus and Barwin, needing to fill two OLB spots, which is a very expensive position, that also requires high draft picks typically.
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If they bring back COle, then im fine with losing BG… But losing COle AND BG is FOOLISH, and I think we know better Han to disrespect such an important position in a 3-4 defense.
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I would Love to not sign BG, and then go get Houston, but I don’t see that happening at all. I have a feeling that if we DONT pay BG, we won’t PAY another OLB… So let’s see how happy everyone is to say goodbye to BG when we go into a draft with only Marcus, and barwin, creating more NEEDS as if we didmt have enough to already fill.
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Don’t really care which way they go, but they absolutely CANT lose BOTH BG and COle THIS offseason….that’s a mistake, that will come back to haunt us…rather avoid it
be interesting to see how things flow in FA. Think you need a couple of difference makers if you want to win anything while Kelly’s on his first contract.
the PPG differential for the defense this year is huge compared to last year — not sure you can predict that (or what it’ll look like next year). Think we held teams on avg. to under 20pts for most of the season last year (was that all Patrick Chung?), this year seemed closed to 28ppg.
All I know is if we let both BG and Cole walk this offseason. Dion BETTER be on his way to Philly.
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Dion and Marcus would both still be on rookie deals, so we could add a mid level veteran… Buy that position is so damn expensive.
Be interesting to see what happens with Dion, wonder if the Bryce Brown 4th RD pick will be enough for Miami.
It should be enough unless someone is offering more. That GM and Coach don’t have any security. They can easily be fired next year, no more time to waste waitng on potential, or continue to jam that square Peg(OLB) into the rpumd hole(DE)
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If some other jackass is offering a 3rd for dion, we have to up the offer. But that drug program business should really drop his stock, and teams know, that PATIENCE is NOT a luxury that Miami regime will get to enjoy. They really need to produce next year, or they are gone
If its up to me (which it clearly isn’t) is get Cole back as cheap as possible, let Graham go an see the mid tier pass rusher market for better fits like maybe Orakpo, Worilds or even Hughes who is much better in coverage then Graham surprisingly
Plus if he lights it up for a 4-3 team you can get a solid comp pick
He likely wouldn’t even have to play exceptionally. If he gets paid 7-8 million dollars. We would likely get a 4th almost guaranteed. If he put up double digit sacks we might get a third.
Now the other side to that equation is we cant’ go out and blow our own load on some mega FA or they cancel out.
Depends what you mean by mega free agent, Houston isn’t happening but would it hurt to go after a mid tier guy like Worilds,Sheard etc. Or do you mean no one at all?
I’m talking about a certain corner who has started 20 some games in an extremely specific scheme, under a DB guru who everyone wants to back up the Brinks truck for.
In general you’re going to hurt what you would get back for Graham by signing Worldlis or Sheard. Say Graham signs for 8 a year and we go sign Sheard for 5.75. We would likely only get a 6th or 7th back in return.
Guys making close to vet minimum don’t really count into the equation but other wise it’s an addition subtraction equation for determining comp picks.
OK I need you to explain the comp pick process to me lol or send me a link. Maxwell simply fits everything they like and I think he’d excel here but if anyone is talking about giving him elite money then that changes everything, how much do you think he’s worth?
I think he’s likely to get 8+ a year due to teams overpaying for second and third tier talent on a Super Bowl winner, as well as the dearth of quality options at CB. Once again I haven’t focused on him during a Seahawk game or anything, but I continue to question how people think he’s a perfect fit. Sure he’s big. But our corners do more than just press. The defensive scheme we run calls for corners to be able to play press, man, as well as a variety of zone coverages. Seattle basically plays a hybrid cover-3 match zone press all game.
As far as the comp picks:
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/red_zone/2014-NFL-compensatory-pick-projections.html
That’s about where I’d stop talking ive been think 7-8mil like 4 years 30ish mil if not don’t mind a guy like Jackson who has proven much more
But the thing is, he gets 9-10 mil elsewhere, people are going to lose their collective shit.
I wouldn’t fresh out if we signed to 4/36 or whatever but yeah if you want to spend that kind of money rather you just pay McCourty gets loose
For the record I’d rather overpay to get a safety because the position is so putrid right now league wide. I don’t mind building from within or adding mid-tier guys at CB. Plus I think CB is far deeper in this draft than safety is.
The CB I’d overpay for stayed in Denver.
It’s capitalism, gotta pay for quality. You see us drafting and producing a quality DB in house? I think the difference in quality between the 5-6 million guy and the $10m could be a fair amount (we probably have 2 more wins with better safety play).
I think you’re both right. You’re correct that one must pay for quality, but D3FB has a correct point that Maxwell isn’t the level of guy you do that for.
If Justine Houston, D Thomas, and/or Dez Bryant hit the market; that’s the type of quality you go all-in for.
Maxwell could be the Alvin Harper of DBs. Looking better than he is due to his teammates / system, but a waste of a top contract as a free agent.
agree no Maxwell probably b/c he’s the best name this FA cycle and that’s no good.
Kareem is the guy I really want anyway and I think he will come at a good price if not Cox, Skrine and others come into play
That’s why I thin he’s going to get paid like crazy but I also think there is a high chance of serious buyers remorse in a year or two.
Which is 100% the reason that he isn’t the guy to overpay.
I agree he is nice fit sure but I’m not breaking the bank for Byron Maxwell
plus they benefit from great safety play, which most other teams can’t replicate.
100% the reason I’d rather be aggressive for a safety.
Just a shame we didn’t sign Quin instead of Chung two years ago. We’d be all set with Quin and Jenkins right now.
Yep wish we got Quin, maybe we get Parker, Moore or dare I say pray for Mccourty
McCourty would be a “must” if he hits the market.
He’d immediately become our number 1 target
Chancellor playing robber, KJ and Bobby buzzing passing lanes, certainly limits what routes teams can run. Throw in a solid pass rush and Earl playing centerfield to clean up your mistakes, and Maxwell feels like a classic “the fans all want him now, and in 18 months want everyone fired for signing him” kind of player.
I’m not sure if you’re old enough to remember the Alvin Harper debacle once he left Dallas. This seems to be very similar.
Not old enough, but it feels a little like Adalius Thomas
Apt as well.
Do you think we ask too much and that is why so had to find guys who can do it?
There aren’t a ton of guys who can do what we are asking, it’s tough to find them. It’s why I was so in love with Kyle Fuller last year. This draft seems to have a decent chunk of quality sized CBs, so that helps. With such good WR’s coming out in droves they are important. The NFL is cyclical though. I imagine in a few years you’ll start to see the quality of corners creep back up, especially with RBs being so devalued, some of those ATH high school guys are going to start wanting to play corner.
I think the defense be pretty good with guys even like 10% better than Cary without all the fake tough guy nonsense.
The long term vision for the defense, should they be able to pull it off is pretty great. An athletic but powerful front 3 to shut down runs up the middle, and string out stretch plays. 2 OLBs that can set the edge, drop in space and come get your QB. 2 ILB that can both play sideline to sideline to clean up for the DL and still cover if you want to spread us out. Safeties that can come up and play man on your slots or TE’s and sit in centerfield. Corners that can play any coverage and aren’t afraid to stick their nose in there against a ball carrier. That’s the ultimate way to stop the super QB. Shut down his run game, then confuse the ever living hell out of him by playing cover 4 one play and cover 1 press man the next.
So we need 1 S, 2 CB, 1 ILB, and 1 OLB. The rest of the group is pretty young. A couple more drafts, some back of the roster churning and we may just be there.
Combine that with a coach who can manufacture points, and those 34-28 games start to become 35-17.
I like BG, but I think he’s a bad fit for this scheme. He worked his tail off trying to convert to LB, but outside of rushing the passer, he never developed an acceptable level of skill in space. I agree with you and D3FB that we should pat him on the back and tell him good luck.
Yeah hard worker I’m happy as hell for him after the way he’s been treated result in his career, think he will continue to do solid on a team that suits him unfortunately I doubt that team is us
No T. Cole?
I don’t really care which they decide to keep, as long as they keep 1 of them. I think it’s a BIG mistake to lose BOTH Trent and Brandon this offseason…. Especially since IM CONVINCED that if we DONT PAY BG, you won’t see the Eagles pay any other OLB
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I feel like fans who want to lose BG, feel that way because they see sexy names like Houston, Sheard, Orakpo, Worlids… Let’s see how happy everyone would be about losing BG when we don’t replace him with any of those names…lol
I’m with you on this, Geagle. Losing both Trent and Graham would be a mistake. Even if we could somehow bring Dion in, I’d be worried with two young guys who haven’t proven jack sh!t being forced to start.
Yeah man, especially at that position. So important. If we decide to let Brandon Walk, they have to work out a restructuring with Trent Cole to keep him here as a stop gap for a year.
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Heck even if you suffer an injury and you are down to only two OLBs you trust to give game time, you are screwed. like the DL, that’s a position that needs to rotate and keep Our pass rushers fresh
BG should get walking papers. He’s going to get paid more and scheme wise fits better to be a 43 end. Let the market settle, bring in a lower tier FA who is a better scheme fit, restructure Cole down a little bit, and target someone in a deep pass rusher draft. Barwin/Cole/Smith/FA/rook. Much better than paying big money to Graham, who is pretty average as a 34 OLB.
Plus by letting Graham walk you get a comp pick in 2016.
Za’ Darius Smith. Thoughts?
Reminds me of Ka’reem Martin. A guy like that after Vinny leaves, sign me up, but a guy who likely would only ever be a change of pace/pass rusher, who may or may not grow into being a full time starter. DL is our deepest position. Likely a poor allocation of resources.
I meant as a late round OLB prospect.
No.
Informative!
I’d concur with his no though don’t like him at OLB
Fine, I’ll extrapolate.
http://media.giphy.com/media/UgwwPFH3ufvKo/giphy.gif
Fair enough.
Meh has good stength from the little I’ve seen but he’s not that fluid, and doesn’t have much burst (I’ve seen very little though usually watching Bud)definitely a late round dude
He does have the strength for sure. I see burst every now and again but nothing consistent. Makes you wonder if he takes plays off. He was a former bball player so I wonder how he looks in space.
Restructure Cole down a lot of bit rather.
He’s going to come down, but probably ends up around 4, maybe as high as 5. You cant just cut guys down to minimum valuation, especially not career Eagles. We’ll be closer to the cap but not right up against it.
Yeah you still give him 3.2 for letting him go and take 8.5 so if you get him to around 4.5 you only lose a couple mil by keeping him while not taking his salary all the way down
I’m very ok with him making 4. I’d still rather it be 1.6 so his $3.2 cap charge is what we would have eaten in dead money, but I get your point.
That works for me…. Just can’t lose both Cole and BG in the same offseason…
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We.traded for Demeco, we traded for Sproles, crappy Free agent market, so hopefully we get creative and trade for a certain OLB or WR
Have to go with the texan.
Nobody has mentioned it, but is it at all possible that Gamble is gone because he was instrumental in bringing in Cary Williams, Bradley Fletcher and resigning Nate Allen ? After the second straight year of having the top 5 worst secondary, somebody should be fired for bringing in and resigning that garbage ! This year was much better with the signings of Jenkins, Sproles, Maragos and Parky.
I’ll add:
“If it ain’t broke…”
Things appear to be going in the right direction as is. I’m not a fan of big shake-ups when a franchise is clearly on the rise.
If that wasn’t a pass interference by the cowboy defender, then Bradley Fletcher should he going to his 1st pro bowl this year…. GTFO here
Hate all of those calls from the Dallas / PHI game.
Even if you pick up the flag (you shouldn’t, but you convince yourself you should), how the @!#$ do you not flag Dez for being 20yards on the field without a helmet when his defense was playing?? That’s utter garbage. I don’t think the refs ‘fixed’ the game, but I do think they royally fucked up.
Never seen anything like it. Fuckin disgrace for a playoff game.
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When the hell was the last time the lions made the playoffs? And you do that to them? That’s not OK. I don’t even care that dallas profits from this bullshit, you don’t do that to a team, it’s so hard to make the playoffs, the Lions players and their fanbase deserved better
This was the first time I thought something fishy really might be going on in a game. Prior to this, I always figured human error was to blame and those screaming “fix” were just angry fans or delusional conspiracy nuts. When the flag was picked up, however, and Bryant wasn’t called for going onto the field (I can still hardly believe that), it does seem possible we may have moved into the realm of interference with the outcome of a game. I’ll bet we’ll never know for sure because even if the League finds out there was something going on, they would cover it up like a life-or-death matter.
I posted this on the previous link and din’t want to rewrite the same thing.
I know some are hesitant that Chip has so much power but he also doesn’t have a family to occupy his time. His family is football. No distractions.
If he is willing to listen to a jackass like Cary “F’ing” Williams to make a important in game adjustment, you can pretty much count on him knowing what he doesn’t know, and be willing to listen to others when it benefits us…
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He delegates to assistants and lets them make decisions, I’m sure he will delegate to the personel department, now that he gets to choose who works in personel and who doesnt
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Someone will gather all the predraft info, and be able to tell chip when we can wait Til the next round to draft his guy. If he listened to Howie when he said it, he will listen to who he appoints to be able to know those things
As our attention now turns to the offseason, filling our needs, upgrading certain positions. It’s Important to remember, that we are going to see some MAJOR impovements from this past year, by doing Nothing!
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No matter how Much a young player like Huff struggled, or how much improvement young bucks like Cox and Kendricks showed this past year, we have t seen the best these young kids have to offer yet. We have so many young players that are completly Commited to working towards excellence. Unless injuries hamper them, these puppies should come back, better and stronger than the players we saw this past year.
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1) Kendrick,Cox, Curry, Boykin… That 2012 class really came into its own this past year, which was their 3rd season,and second in this scheme…they should have one more offseason of significant growth in them, this year they got comfortable im the scheme and we started to see what they can really do…year 4 we should see them reach consistent level of high play. Going into their 4th year, 3rd in the system,this is really the MONEY YEAR for young players…
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2) That 2013 class of Lane, Ertz and Bennie. I know how much we noticed Cox, Kendricks and that 2012 class grew in year 3 and their second year in the scheme, we should see Logan, ERTZ, and Lane all reach a new level of play. We already got solid play from those kids.. Think about the improvements cox and Kemdricks showed this year… Now Imagine how much better the 2013 class should look next year
A) Logan not only anchored real well proving to handle double teams, but he shed blocks and was one of the Elite NT interms of being able to shed blocks and make the tackle. For most of the season he led all NT in Tackles. Showed great lateral ability to defend those stretch run plays the skins and Cowboys like to throw at us… With How Nasty Cox looked in year 3, I get Giddy thinking what a beast Bennie logan will be next year, especially when he got injured and missed most of camp last year. bennie will be scary next year.
B) friggin Zack ERTZ barely played 50% of snaps and racked up 700 yards lol. If he played as much as the top TE’s his numbers would be really high on the TE list. kid improved his blocking a lot from last year, and he knows that blocking kept him Off the field 50% of the time, he says he is focused on continuing to improve his blocking, strengthen his legs so he can be a little faster… ERTZ is going to grow into a special playmaker.
C) Lane should really reach that next level, he was Raw when he came here, year 3 is when we should really see him start to mature into that elite tackle we will enjoy once he reaches the veteran stages. he will be bigger, stronger, another year more comfortable… Hopefully Herremans or whoever plays RG stays healthy so Lane can build chemistry with the RG
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3) 2014 class should show the type of growth we saw in Bennie, ERTZ and Lane this year, year two is a year to make a big leap, but year 3 is the biggest… mathews is a workaholic, who the hell knows how much better he wil
Be when we see him next year. Heck chip thinks so highly of him he wanted him in round 1…Beau will be as good of a backup for Logan as we could ask for. Huff shows FOASHES of dangerous playmaking ability, but he had that rookie black cloud over his head following him around all year, once he shakes free from it, and stops making the costly rookie mistakes we should see a weapon that FOLES will really grow to value…. Marcus will finally start to shot people up. Expect hm to be really impressive in coverage, provide a pass rushing boost, he should struggle the most at setting the edge in year two, but by year 3 that should be taken care of..l Jaylen Watkins is going to be a good player for us who will contribute, just not certain at which positipn yet. Worst case scenario he will replace Nolan Carroll in that Dime Role…
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We have so many qulity young players who showed so much growth this past year, that it’s very exciting to see how much more they will grow this offseason. So many promising hard working young talents that wil improve…add all those little individual improvements up and it should really take this team to another level…
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Heck, FOLES should be a better QB than he has ever been, then we got some of the guys who ARENT guarantees, but if one of two could pan out, it would be a big boost like Taylor Hart, Ed Reynolds, Earl Wolff, the young backup OL, Burton..
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Also going to see a better malcolm Jenkins and Darren Sproles, they couldn’t possibly have shown their best year 1 in a new sche,e playing with all new team mates.. They should really reach that comfort level after this next offseason and we should see their best next year…heck friggin Maclin, as great as he was should be better next year…
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This team will improve so much just from growing up, spending more time togethet, another pffseason of quality training and coaching, that we could bring back the same exact roater and be a much Inproved team. Heck, just staying healthy would make us a much improved team….. But if we could add another 4-6 Quality players, combined with all the improvements we will naturally make, we should see us reach new heights…. As long as injury luck DOESNT rape us again
“Back in 2006 the Eagles coveted 2 players, Brodrick Bunkley and Winston Justice. Andy Reid wanted to move up in the draft to get Bunkley. Tom Heckert, who was masterful at gathering pre-draft info, felt the Eagles could stay put at pick 14 and get Bunkley. Heckert had to talk Reid out of moving up for Bunkley, who did fall to 14.”
F-ing really Reid? Really? The entire fan base was screaming for Ngata, and Reid wanted to move up for that unmotivated piece of Florida State trash Bunkely? His career highlight was waddling his lazy fat rear end to get chicken rather than make a team flight on time.
Should have traded up for Ngata!
Harsh. Bunkley was pretty good for us.
He didn’t get super fat until he moved to New Orleans.
His career highlight was a suspension for missing a team flight due to being late on account of going to pick up chicken.
And he’s significantly worse than Ngata, a 5 time pro bowl player.
Why would the Eagles, who played a 1 gap scheme draft a 3-4 NT type over the prototypical 1 gap player in Bunkley?
Petition philanthropist Jeffrey LURIE to take on Josh Gordon or Justin Blackmon. I want a Low Risk, Ridiculously HIGH reward type talent to take a flier on…….nthose undiscaplinex kids Made a mess of themselves on bad teams…. Who knows, a change of scenery, knowing they are running out of chances, maybe they are maturing, a chance to play for what could be a legit contenders the structure of our detailed training and commitment that you need to show and maintain to make it in this locker room, maybe brings out the best in these kids…. Worst case scenario we lose a 6th or a 5th round pick. It’s worth the risk. Pretend we drafted a player who someone poached on our practice squad if the player doesn’t pan out.
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We invested so much in building this great locker room culture, why not take some high reward fliers and see if we can turn a young mans career around. You can’t fake it with chip Kelly, and if you don’t put in the work, you won’t be here, and im sure everyone knows he is serious after cutting Desean.
Jeremy Maclin is a class act so you know he will try and look out for a kid like josh Gordon or Blackmon,.. I’m sure seeing young Jordan Mathews with such a crazy work ethic could make Josh Gordon start to think about what he wants to do with his talent……. It’s WOULDNT be worth the trouble if the kid Wasnt THIS SPECIAL, still young, cheap rookie contract, and the Browns are fed up, his stock is so low from the drug program we can get him for a 6th round pick,… Doubt there is anything we will find on round 6 THATS worth passing on a chance at a troubled young man, who could be one of the top 3 players at his position.
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I don’t see what we have to lose? A 6th round pick? He is making cheap rookie money. So it’s nt like you get killed financially if he doesn’t pan out…..take a FLIER on a Special young Talemt now that we have the locker room and cultire in place that can handle it…. Jpsh Gordon in “hardworking EAGLE SHAPE” with FOLES behind our healthy Line, Maclin on the other side with Jordan or ERTZ in the slot is DANGER, DANGER, DANGER!!! Take a flier, swing for the fences!!! This is like LURIEs chance to re-do the Terrel Owens mistake lol
Funny you should mention having to upgrade wide out because each day that passes without him re-signing here makes it more likely Maclin is going to seek out top dollar on the market.
I lot of the fits we are speculating about won’t reach the market free agency doesn’t start for two months we have time
Ha ha. It started the second we were eliminated from playoff contention.
I believe there is a moratorium on discussing extensions until after the Super Bowl. Even then the Eagles have a month to continue talks before deciding to let him hit the market or just tag him.
I don’t think so pretty sure the Eagles could sign him today if they please I’ve seen January extensions
Ok, but some were signed. Harris in Denver for example. I’m convinced that if Maclin was looking to do a deal in the 5 year / $40 to $45 mil range it would have been done already. I have no stomach for uncertainty. It’s like the movie Casino. The head mob boss said “Why take a chance” and simply had everybody connected to their illegal operation killed rather than take a chance one of them might turn rat and testify. If I don’t see Maclin signed, he’s not signed. So that leads me to believe it hasn’t been an easy deal to get done.
This is all speculation but Maclin talks about the contract like they’re close and he expects to be back, if I had to guess Eagles trying to get him in that 8-9 range like you’re saying Maclin probably pushing for something like 5/55 with 25-30 guaranteed. The interest is mutual so I thing before FA they’ll reach something like 5/50 22-25 guaranteed
That very well could be the number Maclin wants, but I’d be disappointed if the Eagles went to $10+ for him. I’m at the point where I want him at $8 or I really don’t want him.
Cap is rising honestly 5/50 knowing Howie is really 3/27 and if you let him go what do you then you may be forced to pay Cobb around the same or more Torrey Smith might end up costing you 9 a year, Crab could cost you 7+ I mean unless it gets ugly like 5/62 with 30+g I don’t want the risk
Sure in a perfect world you sign him to 5/44 but I just dont see it but I think they are close and I think ultimately he will get about 10per
Would you pay Vincent Jackson $10 mil / year for each of the next two with no guaranteed money and draft another guy while letting Maclin walk?
Maclin is a very good player, but not a pro bowler, doesn’t break games open, doesn’t set coverages simply by being on the field, and has a somewhat scary knee history. I have to reserve that type of big money deal for a guy who give me more than Maclin does. I wouldn’t pay Crab or Torrey more than Maclin however. Cobb is a very interesting conversation, but I doubt he’s as good anywhere else as he is in Green Bay. So I guess I’d hold a very tight line on all 4 of those guys.
Not sure if I had the conversation with you but I’d resign Mac and still trade for VJAX, I mean it just looks bad if you let your top 2wideouts go consecutive years and Mac has suggested that they are close so don’t see why it vanttbe done 10 million on the new cap is the equivalent if 8.5 2-3 years ago.
I can see where you’re coming from on that, but I just have a lot of reservations about going past a certain line on commitments to Maclin long term.
Well see want him to stay and the difference between 9 and 10 mil isn’t worth losing him but guaranteed shouldn’t be too high
yes
I’d take Crab for cheap. You think there’d be a big drop off? WRs put up monster numbers here even playing with Marky Mark and the Funky Bunch. Dont think it should be too hard to find someone. MAC is replacement level talent to me.
We have the money to get it done though. I think only KC (Reid, and MO native) has a chance to take him from us without paying crazy money.
And that’s the thing, I wouldn’t pay him crazy money. If he gets an offer above $8 or $9 mil / year, I congratulate him and wish him well playing for somebody else.
The cap is also projected to jump pretty significantly in the next few years. Adjusting for inflation of the cap I think anything up to just shy of 10.5 or 11 could make sense depending on the structure of the contract. I think Maclin’s camp also wants to wait and see if Dez or Thomas get deals done. It would be bad agent work for those guys to get 13 -15 apy and Maclin already have signed for 8 or 9. Especially if Cobb, Crabtree, or Torrey Smith waited and get more.
I’d have to look at Maclin at $11 mil / year with an expanded cap in ratio to what guys who are better than Maclin are currently earning. Where I’m loathe to elevate Maclin’s salary into that higher tier of receivers is that I don’t think he’s a guy who impacts games on that level on his own and he’s not exactly operating on pristine knees.
Yeah think those guys will set the market. Last year was a good year to sign FA WRs, market was very depressed.
You don’t think he’s worth two Riley Coopers?
Noooo. Not with chip in charge. Respect the process, it’s not like it’s overdue. It’s not like you seeing the Eagles reach agreements with other players yet. No shot Maclin leaves.. ID bet players will be even more excited to play for chip now that they know he has control.
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Maclin ismt going anywhere….
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I mention Josh Gordon or Blackmon because of Coops contract. Can’t get out of it Til next year, so it’s easier to add a rookie contract like Gordon, Blackmon or Cordarrel Patterson in a trade, then to spend money on a veteran WR like Vimcemt Jackson……
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Trading for a talented WR THATS still on a rookie deal would be perfect!!
Yogi said something about things not being over. Until the situation is settled it isn’t a definite.
He’s coming off of one-year deal. Players coming off of one-year deals can’t sign a new deal yet (I think they have to wait until free agency opens?). Same as with Donnie Jones last year.
No… Not the same as donnie a situation
How are they different?
wasn’t that non-PI call in dallas the same exact non-call on fletcher against Dez on thanksgiving?
it was close right?
they still shouldn’t have picked up the flag
They didn’t throw the flag. Announce the penalty. Have an eagles player on offense run out onto the field without his helmet to protest the play. Then pick it up without an explanation. Other than that, sure it’s the exact same non-call.
If you are a player that likes what he hears and sees and would Love to play for chip Kelly, Philly probably just became an even more attractive destination for players, especially the current Eagles who know what a good coach he is, know how competitive and smart he is so they can count on him doing what it takes to imprve this team. I don’t know how players view Howie, I’m sure better than they viewed Banner… But you know players trust football coaches more than a pencil pusher in a suite…. You hear guys like Maragos and Sproles talk about wanting to come to philly because of the reputation chip quickLy built for the Eagles. now that the great chip is in charge, who players love and respect so much, this probably becomes an even more desirable destination for players league wide..
I think what you’re saying helps, but there i$ really one $ure way to $peak to a free agent looking to $ign.
money talks that’s right
NFL players hitting the market really only have one assured chance of cashing in big time. Why pass that up?
You act like they won’t have 5 offers all of which lucrative. The table
I wouldn’t
The thing is, is often $ isn’t enough. When you talking about adding a quality free agent, he will have plenty of Lucrative offers on the table… It’s rare that we are the only team bidding on a quality player, so you will have to have more attractive situatuon to offer than the team you are competing with for their services..
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I don’t expect this to mean free agents give us 5mil discounts. But plenty of players we will go after, will have 4-5 options on the tables.. Good to be a desired destination to help tilt decisions in our favor
I’m down with that as a tie-breaker, but why take a chance? I’d just up the offer to keep a guy I can’t afford to lose from leaving the building.
You really want to need to offer a good player more than a jackass like Dan Snyder will throw at him to be able to get him to sign with us? As if all the dumb owners don’t have problems in the secondary. Dan Snyder, jerry jones, Woody n the Jets….. I’ll bet we never offer a player more than Dan Snyder does… Hopefully we will be so much more attractive to the player that being in the ball park is enough, and we don’t have to outbid stupid, Undiscaplined jackass owners
There is a ton of fallacy if you’re trying to present things in a Dan Snyder or nothing type way.
How many times do you see a team get a guy on his first visit, but not let him leave before he signs a deal with them? Making sure you close a deal for a player who is worth it isn’t even close to spending money on over the hill players like Bruce Smith or guys that have always sucked like Adam Archuleta.
When a guy takes those visits, his agent already has plenty of other offers he already knows about.. Typically he willl go visit the team he wants to go to first, and if they are in the ball park he will sign. They often do this so the other teams feel pressured to up the offer if they really want to keep that player from signing, if he doesn’t get a better offer, they will sign before they leave…
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If you aren’t in the right ball park already, the ageny won’t even take your calls…
I don’t disagree with you, but you have to be willing to do what it takes to get certain guys across the finish line for your team if you’ve identified them as the correct guy to add.
You act like the Okland Raiders can offer a player an extra 100k and a player will chose the Raiders over the Eagles…. The Raiders have to over pay for older players and they have all the money in the world…. Is there money not green? The rIders have to overpay toget free agents to sign there
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Being a desired location is how Sproles wanted to come to the Eaglea instead of the skins.. Told the Eagles he would sigń a new contract with them, and Darren ends up going to the team he wanted.
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Pretending being a desired destination doesn’t matter is crazy talk. It my not matter in all cases, but it will matter
I’m not talking $100k. And I’m not talking Sproles. I’m talking if a guy like Dez Bryant were to hit the market.
Dez isn’t the kind of guy who would take less though I think he is saying that for example let’s say we offer Worilds (example) 4 years 27mil and then the Skins or Bucs or somekne offer 4 for 30 that being in the same ball park plus being a relatively desirable location may get you said free agent
I get that, but if you really think the guy is the one you need to get over the top; why take a chance? And if my team sucks like Washington or Tampa I’m not trying to mess with that level of free agent anyway because I’m trying to fill up every possible roster spots with young guys who will be around when my team is ready to be good again. I’m not advocating for a 2011 approach to trying to sign every single guy on the market, but I’m trying to say if I have a key guy down to looking at my team and a few others that I’m not taking a chance that he’s not on my team.
On defense? Nah, on offense or ST probably.
In 90% it will come down to money.
Not really…. Typically a good player has 3 similar offers on the table.. All of which Lucrative and very similar financially. We offered Keenen Lewis the money, he to.d us no because he wanted to be in New Orleans… Why wasn’t $$$ enough to sigń him?
Lewis had it in his head that he wanted to go back to that $hit hole New Orleans. Very rare circumstance.
Being a desirable situation is good though look at T.J Ward last year
I don’t know what anybody else offered him. We have hard data on Lewis, but there isn’t anything similar about Ward.
Adam Schefter
@AdamSchefter
27m27 minutes ago
Eagles requested permission for GM interview with KC’s Chris Ballard, who some believe to be the favorite in Chicago.
Ballard is a hot name. He declined an interview with the Jets. The reported reason was the position wouldn’t offer full control. Now, the Jets are reportedly not allowing their GM to pick the coach and trying to find two guys that fit together. Kelly may be an attraction for a potential GM or a detriment depending on the opinion of the person involved. In fact, RoobCSN just tweeted this:
Reuben Frank @RoobCSN 3m3 minutes ago Philadelphia, PA
I’m told by a league source Chris Ballard has little interest in Eagles’ GM vacancy. @AdamSchefter reported Eagles asked to talk w. Ballard.
Regardless, it’s nice to see the Eagles seemingly aiming for more experienced guys. I’d be worried if they just promoted Marynowitz.
“wouldn’t offer full control” with the Jets was a nice way of saying “dead end job”
They talked to the dude from the Lions too
Based on what I’m hearing I’m fine with either of those dudes
I’d rather have Ballard.
He’s the hot name right now so I’m not sure he would take a half gm job with us over a real one
Fair point.
I have seen reports that he wont even interview with us. He is also the front runner for the Bears job
Not sure I want anything to do with anyone who’s been a long time member of the Lions front office mess.
Or worked for Martin Moron, who isn’t exactly a Mensa member.
They’ve done a good job drafting though granted they pick high a lot
They should drug test their GM. He’s a Florida State “graduate.” If that doesn’t say drug addict idiot, I don’t know what does.
Howie is Gator alumni, so he should be tested as well right?
Yeah, I know. That was posted here earlier in the day.
I’d prefer Ballard.
Here’s hoping that Ballard agrees to become the Eagles GM who then brings Houston along to Philly.
That like a legal requirement, right? If get KC’s guy we’re entitled to their OLB as well? Right?
Two great minds think alike..
Anyone know if Lawlor and Kempski are doing another podcast anytime soon? I thought it was going to be a weekly thing.
??? Never listened to one
Hasn’t been one for a while, but they’re very entertaining.
https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=787201336&i=328117526
This like should take you to the Christmas Eve show they did.
You should. Lawlor is even funnier in audio format, and he’s got a light southern accent.
Yeah. Ah do say, light southern accents can’t be beat!
I always enjoy LAwlor when he makes hs radio appearences on 97.5… Personally I don’t see what I can get out of Jimmy Kempski. I try hard to avoid all his post bloggingthebeast crap
I’m going to step up for Kempski. I like his stuff, he’s got a good sense of humor. TLaw remains The Man, though.
http://www.libertybroadcast.co/#/inside-the-eagles/
There 2 new shows.
all their old shows
http://helmet2helmetshow.libsyn.com/
Its official, the Eagles get a 4th round pick from Buffalo in this years draft. Nice job by Howie.
In a related story Doug Whaley’s crack dealer had a very nice year.
sooo bench player or practice squad?
Key contributor to our Super Bowl winning team in 2016.
Practice squad… The hierarchy goes starters, then special teams, then bench (generally reserved for 1st round draft picks), then practice squad (all others).
AWESOME!!! Trade it for Dion!!!
Just a hunch i think Sheldon gets the Gm job
That would be a shame. He doesn’t come across as a particularly strong football mind.
Exactly what are you basing that on?
Team affiliation and overall lack of quality in background relative to other guys mentioned in the “GM” search.
“Sheldon White is entering his 18th season with the Lions. He was promoted to Lions Vice President of Pro Personnel April 30, 2009. During his first three years in the team’s personnel department, White fulfilled a myriad of roles: in 1997 as the team’s BLESTO area scout, in 1998 as an area scout and in 1999 working in both the college and pro scouting areas before becoming director of pro personnel in 2000.”
What part of that is not strong background?
http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2015/1/5/7494375/eagles-gm-search-philadelphia-interview-lions-sheldon-white
Sheldon Brown?
Sheldon White.
Color shouldn’t factor into the decision.
Not really germane to the topic at hand, but did you guys know that the Falcons have retained Joe Banner as a consultant and he’s involved in their coaching search?
Nope
Banner has a pretty good record in Philadelphia. And I don’t think people hold anything that happens in Cleveland against them.
Maybe that’s why he’s been so quiet on Twitter lately.
Banner was hired to help with the finance stuff such as the new stadium.
Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
4m4 minutes ago
#Chiefs exec Chris Ballard is not expected to interview for #Eagles top personnel job that Philly requested him for. Lack of final say hurts
Oh well. It doesn’t hurt to ask.
it will be really hard to find a great executive with nfl experience given the organisational structure and responsibilities on Chip’s ship.
This is like the opposite of the coaching search. There was concern we might have trouble landing a good coach because of Howie, and now we might have trouble landing a good GM because of Chip…
Oh boy, thanks for memories. This coaches search resulting in the surprising hiring of Chippah was unforgettable a couple of years ago.
Bittersweet. We got Kelly but we missed out on Brian Billick.
Lol. Yeah that was heartbreaking.
Except, we’re not looking for a GM.
we aren’t?
I was using shorthand. I think most people knew what I meant.
I totally forgot about the Rooney rule that might be the reason for the Sheldon interview
I realize that RoobCSN reported this, but the rule states this: “The rule mandates clubs to interview at least one minority candidate as
part of the process for a team’s senior football operations position,
“whether described as general manager, executive vice president of
football operations, or otherwise.” Now, I realize that Roseman is supposedly out of personnel, but the rule states senior football operations position not senior personnel executive. So, I don’t think the Rooney rule will apply to position the Eagles are filling.
I think they are interviewing for “GM”. Otherwise it would be a lateral move for some of their candidates.
Yes, but this is a case where scope of job matters and not just title. The Eagles have already said whoever gets hired will answer to Chip. Because of that, this isn’t viewed as a GM(or whatver the Eagles call it) job that includes final authority. Because of that, other teams do not have to give us permission to interview their guys. And by the letter of the law I do not think it would be considered the “senior football operations” position with the Eagles. If you go by title, it’s Roseman. If you go by who is actually controlling things, it’s Chip. Either way, it’s clear that it’s not whoever we’re hiring.
I respect your optimism Tommy, and I will reserve judgment until results are in as I do with all Eagles moves, but I am inclined to think this is a mistake. Kelly is a smart guy, but even the best coaches fail far more often than not when they are given personnel duties as well – coaching and scouting require completely different skill sets and mindframes, and even both are full time jobs – even a guy like Kelly who eats, sleeps, and breathes football is going to find himself challenged. If I had to hazard a guess I’d say there is a greater than 50-50 chance that this move is eventually looked back upon as the moment the Kelly regime began to fall.
I hope you’re wrong, but I share your concerns..
I’ll drink to that.
That can be said for any coach. We all have concerns. The hope though, that this isn’t an ordinary coach. His mindset isn’t like the most of the other NFL coaches. I think it’s higher than 50/50. This isn’t a Rex Ryan in charge who’s pounding his chest on every move. Chip is learning.
Very well thought out and well written post by Tommy. It is for all the reasons sighted in this piece that I would not have given Kelly GM responsibilities at this point.
But whatever your feelings on the final outcome, I’m afraid the whole affair does not reflect well on our CEO, Mr. Lurie, and hence has made me that much more nervous as an Eagles fan.
but what else could he do, honestly? kelly walks you’re sort of screwed.
Yeah. Lurie did what he had to do.
Posted this several times the last few days, but basically you call his bluff
I’d rather an owner who does something about it instead of sits there and gives the team 5 years to decide it isn’t working. Something wasn’t right with Chip/Gamble/Howie. Lurie fixed it. How can you fault an owner for being pro-active?
Let’s look at the situation from the viewpoint of the decision maker in this case – the owner / CEO.
The “tension” between Kelly and Rosenman has apparently built over time… Chip’s “presentation” to Laurie appears to represent the culmination of what basically amounts to a turf war, which may have also included a personality clash (not at all unusual in these situations).
Putting myself in Lurie’s shoes, I would have considered the personality and performance issues separately from any proposed changes in organization structure. If Chip’s argument implied an issue with either Rosenman’s ability to acquire talent or his ability to manage and work with others – and IF I concluded that Chip was right – I would have acted accordingly in order to strengthen that function. Note that that decision does not necessarily require a change in org structure
If, on the other hand, Chip had little or no issue with Rosenman per se, but was basing his argument on “efficiency,” I would have turned downed his request. I believe Kelly’s apparent inability to accurately assess player value in the draft at this point calls into question whether the organization is best served by having him play the dual roles of GM and Coach. Another important consideration is Chip’s relatively limited level of NFL experience. In other words, although we’re obviously dealing with limited information, I believe what evidence does exist falls on the side of not having Chip direct all aspects of player acquisition and management.
IF Chip threatened to walk – which would be a very high risk and immature stance, in my view – I would have countered (strongly) that his lack of complete control was not permanent, and that we could and would revisit the issue in the future. If that – combined with whatever judgment I made as to Howie and his role – were not enough for Chip, I would have had no choice but to let him leave… And, given the circumstances, I would have made my concerns and my reasoning public. That would NOT have reflected well on Chip. My guess here is that this combination of carrot and stick would have been enough to talk him down off the wall.
As for Lurie’s performance as CEO, unfortunatley I see a little less evidence of good than I see bad in this instance. On the plus side, his willingness to listen and consider significant changes is obvious (and huge). On the minus side of the ledger, while acknowledging the limited amount of info available, I believe my judgment would have differed from his. I also don’t like the speed and suddenness of the changes – they imply to me an excessive degree of detachment. Lastly, what little we know in regards to the Gamble departure seems to indicate that letting him go should have, at a minimum, been deferred until after the org changes were decided upon.
Many writers and posters have made the point – correctly, of course – that this is Chip’s ballgame going forward. No arguing with that. But we need to remember that the buck stops with Lurie, and he’s put all his “chips” on Kelly. I hope it works out as well as his early decisions in the Reid era.
People around the nfl have said how well Lurie handled over York with the niners
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Everyone trust chip for what has he done?Nothing but try to hype his side of the ball up and give no love to the defense. Now you want the same guy who cut jackson,then decide to keep that shitty secondary. Resign bum ass Cooper and kept marching bum ass Sanchez out there to lose all the gm at end of season why not give Barkley a chance? Didn’t chip draft him to and draft picks except for Matthews was useless .Now he wants to run my personnel gimme a break control freak i say. Please Chip just coach stay in your lane
Because – Barkley stinks. He wasn’t drafted to be the “man”. He was drafted to see if he can become a capable player. By not playing Barkley shows you the level that he’s at right now.
Not really
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I don’t think a 4th round quarter back sitting on the bench for two years tells us anything at all. Unless Barkley makes a stink about demanding trades, I wouldn’t at all be surprised if Barkley is back next year
Means more if sanchize leaves and we get another player in front of matty b
A young QB spending 3 years developing on the bench ISNT neccessarily a bad sign…especially a 4th rounder
Your personnel?
Hey everyone Jeff Lurie post here!
Best quote I was reading so far, hands down and vote up:
Going all-in on Chip is a high-risk, high-reward move. In the NFL that’s the only way to become a great team.
Personally i think the scouts weren’t disregarding players that didn’t meet Chips requirements regarding H/W/S and such, and with his new power and being able to pick his own head of personnel those players wont make it onto the draft board in the first place. I would think that’s why the coached reorganized the draft board. I don’t think Chip will be organizing the draft board or be involved in scouting as much as a normal GM, i just think he needed assurances that the players drafted met his ethos, and this was his only way of going about that. This way he can trust the Board because it was put together by people he trusts to scout the players after the pool has been narrowed to what he wants from each position
Be Careful who you invest in!
..
4 months after the sainTs signed him to a 42mil extension, Junior Gallete arrested charged with domestic violence. The woman is claiming Junior and his cousin “Jumped her”… Smh
…
It’s offseason time, we all have our eyes on shiney new toys, but in this day and age you have to do your due Dillegence if you want to give big money to another teams players. We can’t take for granted our high character locker room, must seriously look into any free agent we are thinking about making an offer too.
…
I complain when we don’t take fliers on supreme talents with Charecter problems. but I shouldn’t take for granted chip wanting high Charecter guys. Injuries kill players enough as it is, can’t also be losing players to suspension because we are signing Jack asses
I get you don’t want a team of crooks but that doesn’t mean we are going to gave 53 Jordan Matthews, not everyone is like that so you should tame a chance for a few players and try an make it work especially when you have so many high character guys that could run off
There is a ton of middle ground between a criminal and Pope Jordan Mathews.
..
My point is.. If Junior Gallet would have reached the free agent market, I’m sure there would be some Eagles fans who would want to lose BG, and replace him with a slight upgrade like Gallett.. Don’t take for granted our players, be ok with losing them for a slightly better player we don’t know…
…
Losing a quality eagle is ok if you are going to significantly upgrade him….but if it isn’t a drastic improvement, we shouldn’t be so quick to kick the “devil we know. To the curb”
Do you realize how EASY it is to claim that someone assaulted you ? In this age of ( rich athlete’s who will pay for problems to GO AWAY ) it can be VERY profitable for someone to CLAIM assault. There are people out there that will take advantage of the NFL’s new hyper awareness on charges of physical violence by players. Some people will prey on the fear imposed on a player by the notion of even being mentioned in a investigation. This is not a new dilemma, but the stakes have been raised significantly.
Since its fairly irrelevant to the Eagles, would be great to not play the “blame the victim” game here.
ya exactly, sounds like Cosby defenders. There is a need to view both sides of that coin. If its a false accusation you hope it can be alleviated and move on. The numbers on the real victims and lack of justice is grim.
That was a ( not ) very well thought out, ( un ) articulate and most importantly, worthless contribution to this dialogue. Thank you for your participation. SMH.
[…] The Downside – Iggles BlitzKelly had to build a roster at Oregon and he obviously did a great job of that. But finding and developing college players isn’t the same thing as NFL roster building. College players can be “good enough” and you can still win a lot. In the NFL, everyone has access to great talent. Building an elite roster in the NFL takes hard work, skill and some luck. How different is Seattle if Russell Wilson doesn’t last to their 3rd round pick? How different is New England if Tom Brady doesn’t last to pick 199? […]
Wolf > Wolff
isn’t 32 a little young?
Well, I don’t actually mind giving young and upcoming bright smart arses a chance.
I don’t mind either, but not as my Director of Personnel for my favorite team. It’s just one factor, but I think that’s too young. People need some seasoning, some perspective, etc.
unlear if it’s him or it’s nepotism.
Howie gets the job at 35 it’s cronyism.
I get jealous when a person my age is about to pull a $1m with a job that mostly belongs to 40+yos – i assume they aren’t qualified. And here it’s obviously a “my dad was a football guy” sort of thing. But only 10yrs of scouting experience max, to be a GM? Laughable.
The problem is this has to be one of the least desireable jobs for anyone who actually has skilss. You don’t have final say on the roster, you have to live within Kelly’s pre-determined for measurables, intelligence, you don’t get to negotiate contracts AND you’re going to sit between two people that don’t like each other. I’d take my talents elsewhere if i had options.
I get jealous when a person my age is about to pull a $1m with a job that mostly belongs to 40+yos
The problem is this has to be one of the least desireable jobs for anyone who actually has skilss.
Isn’t that an Oxymoron, my friend?! 😉
Hah nice use of italics. GM gobs make x or about x. For x dollars I don’t think a highly qualified gm given what we are offering. So if you want someone good has to be someone young who is getting a huge opportunity. Same point geagle made yesterday about playeres coming here vs other places for the same money.
I think it’s a little more complicated. Power is one factor. Likelihood of success and belief in the leader is another. Pete Carroll seems to be pretty smart about building a team, would being his top personnel guy be a bad move? Would going to say the Bears, picking Trestman and getting fired the next year be better, because you had more power, or worse? Working with a bad owner? Etc.
I agree it’s likely to be a slightly younger, maybe out of the box pick, but that’s also likely what Chip wants. I don’t think it’s like the 32nd best personnel job in the NFL just because of the limited power.
For sure — you get to live in Philly, so automatic plus.
to who? haha
I think working with Kelly is the selling point.
I think it’s actually a stepping stone gig. If you’re a former GM, this is a place to rehab your career without taking the blame for the mistakes. If you’re aspiring to be a GM, these are the kinds of positions that get poached down the line for other teams. I mean, look at who we’re interviewing–a bunch of people working directly underneath a GM.
Take your $1mil/yr job, wait 2 years, and with any luck, some team will come calling to give you a raise. Sounds awesome to me.
this is exactly right and if Kelly and the Eagles have a good run this guy is a prime candidate to step up to a GM job.
Part of the downside for any potential candidate is the fact that Howie is still in the building. This would / will make for a very uncomfortable situation for the Eagles new ( Player Personnel President – AKA General manager. ) This is not going to be a easy sell, and the Eagles will probably ( due to the recent front office issues ) have to settle for a ” in house guy ” , or someone who is much further down their wish list.
send Howie and Sanchez packing. How long must the fans live through the Howie experiment, what has it produced. Im ending up on the side of the super negatives on this one. This was a great step in that direction, even if it takes 2 steps til hes gone.
[…] The rest of the article can be found here: Iggles Blitz […]
LOL @ some teams wanting to hire mIke Shanahan as a GM and Kyle Shanahan as a coach… Lol how would you like to have the Shanahan family running your entire team?
..
Lol Id gladly take Chip kelly in control of our team, then father/son Shanahan duo
Shanahan’s ’98, ’99 SB wins given him great mileage.
Tom Flores’s ’80, ’83 SB wins not so much.
Bob Lamonte is Kyle Shanahan’s agent. Best agent ever. Got Pat Shurmur two HC interviews.
Kubiak getting looks too, his zone run scheme that helped Shanny win those rings along with monster FA signings and TD of course. Sure does help to have the horses. Not sure what Kyle has ever done but ya, Mike still living off those SBs
Theory – Ask permission to interview Wolf, Packers decline, other personnel types with GB(Alonzo Highsmith) see writing on wall and ask Packers to let them go
interesting. Checkers not chess?
Don’t see any other reason to make request. Maybe just due diligence on the slim chance they agree, but Chip should know that the Packers are very, very unlikely to give him permission to interview.
As I was saying on another thread:
Lance Zierlein @LanceZierlein 2m2 minutes ago
I’m writing up Auburn WR Sammy Coates right now. Just watched every target over 2013 and 2014. Some of the worst hands I’ve seen on tape.
ouch.
The thing is, all you have to do is watch him catch a football. Don’t even need to see him drop one. Even the ones he catches he has a hard time with.
Same thing with Kelvin Benjamin, and his drops obviously carried over the NFL.
Same reason I don’t love Moncrief.
Jordan Matthews has better hands than all these guys, but still not a natural pass catcher.
agree, Kelvin’s drops were terrible especially when they put so much on his shoulders this year AND didn’t have great veterans (aside from RIP Avant) to mentor.
Can you give me some examples of natural pass catchers?
ODB’s one.
Fitz
CalJohnson
Dez Bryant, too
All taken in the first. Thank you for supporting my argument. Coates is not perfect and that’s why I would not spend a first, however if he falls to The second where we pick, I’d take a good long look.
Antionio Brown seems pretty natural, but you’re right natural pass catches tend to go early (assuming size and speed), but not all of them
Well he has the size and the speed for sure. Hands a bit suspect but they certainly aren’t the worst I’ve seen. I think the guy tweeting thay was over exeggerating a bit.
Not really… Even guys Known for GREAT hands, had to work very hard at developing those hands, From Jerry Rice to ODB, and all the “great hands” that have come and gone in between, they all put in the work to have those GREAT Hands….
…
If you couldn’t improve your hands, there would be no JUG machines.
..
Every year there is a great WR prospect who comes in with a “bad hand” label, 3 years into his NFL career, no one remembers that his hands were questioned.
..
name some. TO is still known for his unreliable hands.
then no one is a natural pass catcher.
but i have to dissent. i don’t see Jordan Matthews ever having the kind of soft hands that ODB has (and JLandry from some accounts) — no matter how he practices.
Actually some people are just born with great hands and natural hand eye coordination. That is why guys like TO still had drop problems 15 years into his career.
AJ Green
Reggie Wayne
Any player who plucks the ball out of the air consistently is deemed a natural pass catcher. They don’t wait for the ball to get into their body if they can allow it.
I know what one looks like. I need examples.
Kevin White, DeVante Parker and Jaelen Strong are some guys off the top of my head.
All possibly taken in the first? My point is, people keep knocking his hands but if he was perfect, he’d be gone by 5.
There’s a reason why they’re that rated highly.
Exactly. Proving my point further. I wouldn’t want Coates with the with pick.
Well would you rather take Randy Moss or Terell Owens?
Either but Moss, who was taken in the first. Owens in the third because he had “bad” hands. If we get Sammie in the 3rd my head will explode.
Na Brown. Reggie Brown. Freddie Mitchell.
OBJ, Larry Fitzgerald, AJ Green are some of my favorites.
Julio Jones, Jordy Nelson, Golden Tate, Alshon Jeffrey are probably up there.
Desean Jackson actually has very good ball skills and probably doesn’t get a chance to show off his hands as much as other guys. But he’s a natural pass catcher for sure.
I haven’t spent much time on this draft class, but Kevin White is my favorite WR at the moment. Has ridiculous hands / ball skills. As does Amari Cooper.
I agree. To me Sammie is not the best pass catcher but I think he makes up for it in other areas and while you are either a natural pass catcher or not, one can still improve. I don’t think he has one of the worst hands I’ve seen and while he is better than Moncrief, he will probably be taken in the second as well. I wouldn’t take Coates in the first because he doesn’t have the best hands but if he falls to our second pick or close to it, I would absolutely pull the trigger. There is way to much upside.
don’t tell Mitchell
Agreed. Never understood the love of some fans on here for Coates. Despite his huge potential.
Who is your favorite player? I dnt understand the love for him either.
Should be an easy grab in the second then! Yeh he drops balls but it’s not overly terrible. He can also go up and grab em too.
Redskins are getting better.
Hired Scot McLoughan:
http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/12014699/scot-mccloughan-nfl-best-talent-scout-self-employed-living-farm
Dominoes falling. Also may get Wade Phillips as DC. Our team needs to improve a LOT next year.
Too easy to make a joke about the skins. I think I hear they are getting better every off season for the last decade plus. Jokes aside, both are good hires.
agree with that. Another reason for skins fans to get excited and then have a 4-12 season. That said there’s a lot of talent on that roster, espeially if they bolster the defense a bit and get good QB play.
I hope he is ok, but having a beer during his interview is a really, really bad sign.
Yea that whole ESPN article was a bit scary. You kinda wished the guy would have just kept making mid six figures running his consultancy
and not be in our division….i can see why we wouldn’t go there at all. But is there ever a time when talent outweighs demons?
I think he certainly is a guy that paying him for his consulting services would be great. But he seems to have some pretty major issues with alcohol and the sheer stress of being in such a high profile position certainly cant be good.
Yeah, reading that article, it seems like he’d be a great guy to hire as a consultant. I’d be leery of giving him overall control of the operation though.
desperate times = desperate measures
eff it, bring him in and let him go crazy. If it gets them one superbowl and the man falls apart along the way, so be it. Often times the best art and success comes with its own demons.
Jason La Canfora
@JasonLaCanfora
1m1 minute ago
Source with knowledge of Skins talks with Scot McCloughan who was adamant there is no deal agreed to at this time
The Redskins were reported to be considering promoting A.J. Smith but hired McGloughan instead. Redskins fans were against the move because they saw it as same old, same old but if Kelly is looking for an experienced guy then he might not be a bad fit.
It’s also noteworthy that the Dolphins just hired Mike Tannenbaum as a football “czar”, ahead of both Hickey and Philbin. Tannenbaum and Roseman are very good friends.
Update: Apparently, Tannenbaum won’t start with MIA until February 1st. Even though that might eliminate the legal conflict of interest, as a practical matter the conflict still exists.
ATTENTION: D3FB
Related to the past week’s of activity at Nova Care . . .
Where do you think Bob LaMonte — Super-Agent for coaches and management types — fits into this process, i.e., filling Kelly’s personnel-guy slot?
That is, in terms of steering people one way or another?
__________
LaMonte is Roseman’s agent (and Reid’s, too). But his client list is fairly substantial, I suspect, when you’re talking about the up-and-coming personnel folks on the GM-interview list.
Kelly’s agent is David Dunn.
Dunn’s principally known for his player-clients: e.g., Rodgers, Clay Matthews, Earl Thomas, Von Miller, Carson Palmer.
(Dunn’s also known for a bankruptcy resulting from his split with former partner Leigh Steinberg, which cost Dunn $44.6 million. Ouch!)
I have no deep knowledge of this aspect of the game but I would imagine: As far as executive and coaches agents. They may help get a guy an interview by pulling a favor with another client, but in the end it’s still on the candidate to dazzle in his interview, and have the body of work to warrant the interview.
Thx.
Sweet music, as always.
Always wondered how people got into being an agent — seems like lots of $$ getting thrown around.
***** BREAKING NEWS ******
Howie Roseman just resigned ( via – Jason La Confora ) from the Philadelphia Eagles. He is now involved in a bitterly contested battle for his services, between the websites – ” FanDuel and Draft Kings. ” His responsibilities will include but not be limited to : Oversight of all fantasy football operations, player rankings, salary cap format and future website development. Upon the learning of Rosemans departure Philadelphia Eagles owner and CEO issued a statement – ” We would like to thank Howie for his many, many years of his continued salary cap savings, and his unwavering a$$ kissing from the day he entered Joe Banners broom closet. ” Lurie, continued, ” We decided that if we were going to ( REALLY ) attempt to win a Super Bowl, we had to remove the ” money ” guys, and hire REAL ” Football ” people. ” Asked about what he thought about Rosemans joining a fantasy football website, Chip Kelly responded, ” That’s his area of expertise. ” Harry Gamble was unable to be reached for comment, but did tweet, ” Couldn’t carry my jock. “
Harsh.
An Earthquake rattling Downtown Dallas was no joke instead.
That wasn’t a earthquake ….. that was Governor Christie chest bumping Jerry Jones.
there you go, now that IS funny
boy we really need some news to have something new to talk about.
Stinks that the season is over.
It is extremely obvious that Roseman was a paranoid, megalomaniac who suffered from ( football guy / Napoleon ) complex. He knew deep inside that he got his job through his relationship with Joe Banner, and subsequent relationship with Jeffery Lurie. Roseman was paranoid that a ” REAL ” football guy was going to rise up and prove his superior player evaluation ability over him. That is why first Banner, then Roseman got rid of every top notch player personnel guy that threatened Rosemans weak and fragile ego. Every day he walked into that office, and he heard a little voice tell him …. ” I don’t deserve to be running this personnel department ….. somebody is going to find me out. ” So, he decided – I’m going to remove EVERY possible threat to my job security, and find ANY way to get rid of the best people. Jeffery Lurie is 100 % at fault for allowing this to happen, and not understanding that Roseman ( for all practical purposes ) was bleeding his organization of all the best employees, who could have helped guide the team to drafting and bringing in top level talent, and ultimately much more success.
Never mind.
Yeah Mensa, your so in tune with reality ….. that’s why your boy was just unceremoniously ” promoted ” = demoted. Also, for the record, iv’e repeatedly said that Roseman finally wised up ( 2012 draft ) and began to manage the personnel department and let the football people’s voices have more impact on decisions, rather than his ego.
Go take some antidote cause, you toxic!
So, 2012? Once Banner was shuttled aside, and they let Howie actually start acting like a GM? Just because they have similar backgrounds, it doesn’t mean that Roseman is a Banner clone. As soon as Roseman was given control, he brought in well-regarded personnel guys to assist him. There are many ways to cook an omelet. You can have a guy with a strong background in talent evaluation with some degree of experience in cap management backed up by strong cap managers or you can have the reverse set up. If you want to criticize individual decisions Roseman has made, have at it. Instead you’re assigning him blame for guys leaving when in most of the cases the executive either got a promotion from another team, wasn’t that good to begin with, or Roseman wasn’t even in charge when the executive left. Plus, you’re trying to play armchair pyschologist and make up motivations for Roseman when none of us are in any type of position to judge.
Listen , do you work ? How would you feel if you did your job for 7, 8 , 10 years , and then some guy from human resources was brought in and after 2 years was promoted over you ? How about if he didn’t even have experience doing your job and became your boss ? I don’t need to be a ( arm chair ) psychologist to understand how that would make any department, and the working environment ” toxic. ” Make sense ? I’ve been there. It happens 1,000 times a year, in every business in this country. It’s bad …. it’s sad ….. but it happens. Chip fixed a mess that Lurie let happen and fester. Is it ideal now ? No. It is a BIG step in the right direction, though.
Your revisionist history about the 2012 draft baffles me. Joe Banner still had a heavy voice in the front office prior to 2012, and Andy Reid was still technically in charge of the entire Eagles team. Andy had the same power Chip now has, and Howie was essentially the guy who Chip is now looking to hire, which is a guy to compile stuff and advise him while the buck ultimately stops with him. 2012 was the first year Banner didn’t overshadow Roseman and Reid stepped back realizing he was in over his head trying to be coach and gm both. Trying to make this the year that Roseman finally started to listen to his football people is you trying to force the facts to fit your theory.
Roseman would never have been promoted/demoted except Chip decided (for reasons that still confuse me) that he could not trust his opinion on personnel. This is baffling because as Chip has taken more control of the draft, the quality has clearly gone down. Chip openly admitted that Howie talked him out of selecting Taylor Hart two rounds early! This was not some employee praising his boss. Quite the opposite in fact.
I do not understand why Chip’s and Howie’s relationship spiraled down the drain, but I do worry that still having both guys in the building will create a dysfunctional front office. While I believe that Roseman was demonized, I believe that Lurie made the correct decision to put Chip in control. Great head coaches are harder to find than great personnel guys. Neither Howie or Chip may deserve the adjective great yet, but Chip has clearly shown he’s unique. I believe Roseman should have been allowed to or asked to leave in order to ensure good relations in the front office.
I agree on keeping Chip happy over Roseman, but I also don’t feel that Chip has done anything in my opinion to merit ( football czar ), just yet. Also, my contention is that Roseman was wrongfully promoted, and always somehow ( via – Lurie ) able to remove himself from any responsibilities when picks or free agents were bad. At this point ( via – Kelly ) perception becomes reality, and the reality is Kelly doesn’t ( trust / respect ) Rosemans ” football ” evaluation skills. It is paramount that they hire a excellent player personnel guy who will ( stand on the table ) as they say, for his evaluations of players. I also agree that regardless of Lurie’s and Rosemans relationship, Howie must move on. It should have been one guy or the other. Lurie needs to grow a pair.
Panthers @ Cowboys.
You read it here first. #snap
Eeeew…
I hope I just read it here for the last time as well.
I’m eating supper as I read this, and it turned my stomach.
What did you have for lunch?
Curry beef and rice. Middle daughter made it, and it was really good.
Why do you hurts us?
We’ve all been loyal here.
I mean . . . what is this?
Sorry, no pun intended. The Dryathlon keeps bringing SM feelings up.
Thanks for the laugh
Green Beckham declared shouldn’t have if. You ask me but whatever
is he the WR who had to transfer because of off-the-field issues?
maybe his ticket was about to be punched again?
Yep super crazy talented but a headcase
I would love to have him though.
Absolutely hard to figure his stock he is clearly a first round talent but with the issues I have to wonder
it’s crazy you have a chance at like a $50-100m career and you just can’t get it together. It makes me sad. You know there’s a bunch of people in their 30s, 40s, 50s lamenting lost opportunities. Youth is wasted on the young.
Its a shame same thing with Josh Gordon
Justin Blackmon. I wonder if it happens more frequently with WR than any other position group.
Justin Blackmon is good and all but I’m talking about Beckham and Gordon because they are truky special but can’t keep their head on straight
I thought Blackmon was special, just could even get close to playing a whole season.
I thought Blackmon was very good maybe I’m being to nitpicky with the term special cuz I can only think of 5-10 guys right now is consider special
He was kicked out of Mizzou I think.
Why not? Not like his draft stock would change in a year, except the risk of injury.
He’s currently probably a fringe 1st. If he stayed out of trouble, got involved in community service and put up big numbers for OU, he could have gotten back in the top 10 and maybe sneak top 5 for 2016.
or he could tear his ACL or another freak injury. Still better to be a low 1st (also gets to a better team)
This represents the Howie-Chip relationship and/or is a kitten batting a yawning dog’s tongue.
http://qzfwq3rieno15cw5madptxpgi.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/kitt-interrupts-yawn1.gif
Lol saw that same thing earlier this morning
So who are you ‘rooting’ for to win the super bowl this year? I am going with them…
Broncos. So Peyton can retire and so none of their stud FAs will want to resign with them.
Like your thinking. #DThomas2Eagles
isn’t brock osweiler just a taller nick foles?
That’s a good way of looking at it. Hmm.
I can’t stand their fans or the arrogance of that team. Sore winners and a bunch of bandwagoners.
I don’t like the teams in the AFC this year.
If I had to pick a team, either Carolina or GB. Rodgers is all-world, and it would be funny to see a team that had a losing record to make the playoffs win the superbowl.
I’d be OK with Seattle or Green Bay.
Sorry to bring his up was just over at bucsnation where they article dedicated to us snout Mariota apparently they want t Foles, Cox, Johnson and 4 firsts not saying that jus happening but this is why I need this thought to leave my mind completely lol (yes this is for you D3FB)
Love Mariota, especially in our offense. No one’s worth that much. Good luck, Marcus.
seems to me they’d be better off rolling with trestman and loading up on OL talent.
They should grab someone that knows the Oregon offense
A thousand times no. Lol. Are they serious?!?
I think so lol
Why not give them our entire roster plus 10 1sts?!
Lol obviously that wouldn’t be enough Shady himself might fetch 17 1sts
I don’t think you can trade picks more than 2 years out.
There’s going to be endless talk about Roseman and Kelly and these moves, but Geoff Mosher wrote an interesting article.
What bothers me about this article is that no one put their names (or he’s making stuff up) about Roseman. If it’s true it’s disconcerting. If it’s not, then it’s a waste of everyone’s time. Most likely, it’s somewhere in between.
http://www.csnphilly.com/football-philadelphia-eagles/eagles-front-office-revisited-why-howie-roseman-pushed-aside
Not surprised that no one put their name on the line. Most business’ force their employees to sign non-disclosure or at the least expect it. Having your name on an article revealing the private workings of a team is a pretty sure way to ensure no one else will ever hire you.
The information on Roseman’s paranoia was the most interesting to me. I’ve admired the work that Howie’s done and often thought that he must have been an exceptional politician to have moved so far up the chain so young. Having a few of his warts exposed makes me happier about him being pushed out. I agree with Geoff, that he probably should have been let go and that he still could have a huge impact on how things progress.
If so that’s scary. My dad (75yo sports fanatic) seems to think this is the beginning of the end for Roseman. He said he has to be looking for a new job, but thing is that there doesn’t seem to be any interest. Even from the Jets.
Howie’s raise really puts him in a bind. Almost anyone else who might be interested probably doesn’t want to pay him as much meaning he’d have to take a pay cut to gain the complete control he craves. Combine that with the dirty laundry Geoff aired that is probably well known in league circles, and he’ll be hard pressed to find another team willing to put itself in his hands. Lurie should have fired him, plain and simple. Might be harsh, but there clearly are problems in the Eagles front office and the current reshuffle doesn’t solve any of them.
I hate bosses that are assholes. If the article is true then good on CK for getting him out of there.
Just because an employee thinks a boss is an asshole, that doesn’t mean the boss is an asshole. It’s often the employee making excuses for their own failures.
#bossmentality maybe i’ll get there one day.
Nah, I’m on the opposite end. A worker who irrationally rants about his boss who really knows that most of the time he’s full of shit.
I’d guess there are ultimately other factors than your satisfaction at work. Would Howie still like to be in charge of personnel? I’m sure he would. However, any dissatisfaction he has there might be outweighed by family concerns. What are the age of his children? Is his wife’s family from the area? The financial factor looms too.
Howie could get another GM pretty quick if he was let go from us.
Probably. Depends on how much truth and how much stock other teams put into the rumors about Howie’s reputation.
Teams will love his salary cap skills and sound like he has a good enough eye as a scout
Whenever you have sourced information, you can’t take it at face value. Sources have agendas, the truth not necessarily being any part of that agenda. Do I think that Howie probably has a personality that rubs people the wrong way? Absolutely. However, there’s also bitterness at play here. I don’t know who Mosher interviewed but let’s look at possibilities. Louis Riddick interviewed for the GM job when Roseman was given the title if not the full responsibility of it. Now whether it was just crossing off the Rooney Rule checklist or not, it’s just as possible that Riddick held resentment that he didn’t get the job as it is that Roseman was “paranoid”. He was fired later by Roseman. What one person could view as Roseman “turning” on his staff, the other could view as the boss(as of the time Riddick was let go) holding his staff accountable. Riddick was the director of pro personnel at the time of the 2011 signings and his evaluations probably played a large part of some of the not great signings. Now, sure, Roseman’s accountability himself is fair game, but it’s Roseman’s boss’s job to judge that. Other people to possibly interview: Daniel Jeremiah and John Middlekauf. Middlekauf was let go while from my understanding Jeremiah voluntarily decided to enter the media because of lifestyle reasons. I’d probably hold their opinions as being more unbiased than Riddick. If you’re currently employed by another NFL team, then it’s a natural advantage to you to paint executives of another team in a poor light for competitive reasons. Sidenote: why is disqus not letting me insert lines? I do believe in paragraphs. Sorry if this is hard to read. Regardless, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Is Howie probably part politician? Sure. Most executives who reach the upper heights are. However, what is more likely? Scenario A: Howie is the greatest politician of all time, Lurie is a complete idiot, and Howie is able to eliminate all threats to his position regadless of his own merits and that of the other executives let go. Scenario B: Howie is a little bit of a politician and a little bit of a domineering boss but Lurie kept Roseman over the others(or more indirectly let the others leave on their own volition rather than part ways with Roseman) because Howie brought certain positives to the table that Lurie didn’t want to lose and those other executives either had their own negatives that warranted their dismissal or didn’t bring enough positives to the table to keep them over Howie? Obviously, I go with scenario B.
I absolutely agree about sources. Anyone willing to talk is probably sharing some sour grapes. I also believe there’s probably grains of truth. The part about Howie’s paranoia honestly rings true. Howie has shown a teflon personality where he is constantly credited for when things go right and whenever things went wrong, there’s always someone/something else to blame. As much as Andy irritated us all with his, “I have to do a better job,” at least he accepted that he had a hand in the bad stuff as much as the good. Me, I think the only way you earn a position that high in any company is if you are a hell of a politician. That doesn’t mean that I think Howie is scum or that he didn’t do a good job in many areas. I just think he’s been careful to stroke the right people’s egos in order to get as far as he has as quickly as he did. Now, that’s all over. I want him fired, not because of anything he did or didn’t do, but because a front office where your coach and another high ranking officer, gm or not, just don’t get along is asking for trouble.
Seriously, the whining about non-sourced information here just seems naive. We would have NO information if a reporter was forced to reveal his sources in every article.
Just think of how different things would be with news in general. Maybe people here are just too young to remember Watergate.
I think it makes it tougher to separate fact from bitter opinions, but at least we know that there were a number of people who have worked with Howie Roseman who did not like him.
Meh. Watergate was a long time ago, in terms of the journalistic profession. There’s been enough smoke to know that there’s been a massive fire in the realm of journalistic ethics. Furthermore, I understand why someone would be scared to put their name behind something when, say, they were revealing the misdeeds of a politician or government agency – the things those entities can do to you are scary these days. Management in a sports franchise? Bah. Sure, you could lose your job, but millions of people live with that threat everyday. Sports is just too easy to get away with printing stuff made up out of whole cloth, because no one really cares enough to challenge it. Beyond that, winning a defamation suit in such cases in the US is tough, and even if you can win on liability, proving any sort of significant damages would be near impossible. I just have no faith whatsoever in anonymous quotes that amount to character assassination in sports journalism.
lol, anonymous sources are okay for politics, but sports is TOO IMPORTANT.
I mean, it doesn’t hurt to be an astute reader (know enough about the reporters you’re reading to know who to trust), but if you want any sports news at all, unsourced stories are going to be the only way you’re getting it (unless you want to live in an all-press release world).
Actually, it wouldn’t surprise me if that’s what you did prefer. No one’s feelings would be hurt!
LOL. Reading comprehension isn’t a strong suit, is it? I said that sports *aren’t important enough* for there to be any confidence in anonymous character assassinations in the media; thus, I start with disbelief until evidence mounts to tip the scales, or someone actually holds themselves accountable for a statement. Politics are different – they are important enough that stuff like this gets vetted independently, even if the publication’s editorial staff doesn’t do their job, as the RS and NYT scandals have shown.
As far as sports news, there’s plenty of it that doesn’t involve anonymous character assassination – I tend to prefer the “all-22” stories and Tommy’s reviews over the kind of sloppy, lazy stuff at philly.com. I know some people prefer soap operas, so that’s their thing. It’s not mine, but YMMV.
I could care less if people’s feelings get hurt. Which is why I don’t really care about the anonymous source’s fear of losing a highly lucrative job. Whatever. Suck it up dude – you’re well paid. If you want to whine to the press, be an adult and take responsibility for your teenage gossiping.
think the past week should tell us the beat writers have no idea what goes on over there
Yeah it’s pretty amazing how bad the coverage is — national guys almost do a better job.
I hope that was a joke. Not claiming our local guys are perfect, but the stuff many of the national guys write makes me want to puke.
I agree with this, but the one thing I don’t like is that it’s national guys that tend to actually break news like the Eagles are interviewing someone for head coach(when Kelly was hired) or the Eagles are interested in someone for the personnel role. I don’t know if it’s that agents just feed info to the national guys or that the local guys are just slacking.
Part of it could be their connections with other teams. Eagles contact the Texans, and a national reporter with Houston ties gets a call from someone inside the organization.
(i should say “scoop wise” not daily reporting)
**whew**
Had me worried. Yeah, national level league insiders do a very good job of picking up tidbits before the locals.
Good link. As to Rosenman, I agree the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.
More importantly, as Mosher points out and I’ve been saying, regardless of how you feel about Kelly and Rosenman, this whole thing does not reflect well on the leader of the organization, Jeff Lurie. That’s not a good thing.
And, one more time for the record: I’m not a fan of the move to give Kelly GM responsibilities.
So Howie was a good boss who wasnt friends with his employees? Does not sound like a bad boss at all, just somebody who didnt make friends while working.
Regarding the list of “talented” people fired or ousted by Howie, how come none of them are successful after leaving? Not even Gamble has been linked to any new GM spots.
It is of course a big problem if Howie didnt trust his own guys and was too quick to change things up instead of trusting the process.
Given the recent Rolling Stone fiasco, I’ve become even more leery of unnamed sources in sports reporting. In sports, it’s just too easy to make stuff like this up, because no one is going to challenge it, even after it’s published. And even if they are actually sourced, I have little faith in the modern reporter’s commitment to investigating the statement, ala Judith Miller in the NYT.
Until someone explicitly puts their name behind a statement so that they can be held accountable for it, I tend not to believe it, at least as far as sports reporting goes.
I know um half black but the Rooney rule really rubs me the wrong way I don’t like the idea of being forced to interview someone cuz they’re a minority
Just doesn’t seem right
Yeah i sort of agree, doesnt seem like most Rooney interviewees get “real” interviews.
I’d be angrier about being a token interview than being denied outright.
That’s how I feel is almost disrespectful like that dude who the Skins are about to hire heard they said they can’t make it offocial until they get their Rooney interview in or something like that, just wrong….
I’d be more upset that guys like the shanahan’s have multiple interviews. Should the OC of Cleveland’s terrible offense get HC interviews?
I’d be more upset that even though there’s a rule that allows people to get into the door it’s so clearly just brushed aside so people can hire the same old re-treads, but then i think that’s typical of any executive level position in any field.
At least you can hope that ESPN / PFT picks up your name and maybe you wind up with an interview somewhere.
Retread system isn’t going away. It takes a ton of guts to go out on a limb, and if it goes wrong your automatically blamed. Of course, that ignores the fact that most retreads fail as well. If I’m a young up and comer, being a token interview isn’t the end of the world. It helps get my name out there. If I’ve been doing it for years and am brought in as a token interview? Well, let’s just say I’m not happy.
fair points
I agree with the you in theory, but in practice, I know that when competing against nepotism – hell I would take any advantage I could get. The problem is that the playing floor isn’t even to begin with.
Very legitimate point. Social networking and nepotism are both impediments to fair hiring despite race. Unfortunately, neither are going away.
I’m half puerto-rican and I hate affirmative action. If I can’t earn a job on my own merits, I sure as hell don’t want to be considered because of my race. Only reason to support these kind of things at all is if qualified people of different races are being deliberately denied.
Yeah I just don’t think that is a problem anymore of you are an awesome candidate and are a minority you’ll get considered regardless I think Rooney rule is bad when someonr they don’t have interest in hiring is being interviewed cuz they have to get their minority interview in
Agree.
That really is the bottom line. I mean I understand the origin, and with insular organizations like the NFL where nepotism runs rampant, there needs to be a way for outsiders in general to be considered since many would probably be good candidates. Unfortunately, the sham that so many organization do by interviewing someone they wouldn’t consider just to appease a rule is really disgraceful and a perversion of the intention of the rule. And I am sure, had they actually looked they would find minority candidates they would consider to hire and should interview.
Racial disparities are crazy in certain workplaces — [large] law firms it’s terrible so i think it’s warranted given the other types of favoritism that happen all the time (school, parentage, activities / clubs, friends).
Huge part of getting a job is who you know socially, which can easily turn into a class system for certain jobs.
A very good point. I just question whether forced interviews or quota systems truly improve matters. It sucks and frankly I’ve never really heard of a good solution.
Forced interviews dont work because they are simply forced. If the person wasnt going to.be interviewed in the first place its probably because they didnt deserve to get interviewed, therefore they arent going to get the job when they are interviewed.
Agree 100%, but one of the reasons i dont think the Rooney Rule effects any outcome in the NFL is because the NFL is very mixed with race whether its on the feild or in the FO. If rascism were an issue in the NFL there would be a media crisis and lawsuits due to the over abundance of media coverage. You are constantly surrounded by members of another race, and constantly work with members of another race. Its a good thing, but one reason why the Rooney Rule is not effective and ot necessary in todays age. Years ago it would have been a great thing, but now i beleive largely inneffective and unnecessary.
Oh, the NFL has a racism problem. Quick look at the front office and coaching numbers makes that abundantly clear. The question is whether qualified candidates of other races are a) being developed, and b) being given a fair chance. Me, I think the bigger issue is that the NFL needs to do a better job developing talent. As anon noted, who you know socially is often the deciding factor between equal candidates. If all your contacts are of one race, it’s easy to become insular, which clearly the nfl, like most major sports, has.
Disagree, those numbers are going up and have increased over the years. There was a period when coaches and FO were all white, thats not true anymore. Times are changing and the numbers show it. You are never going to have an even split whether its one day you have more black people then white people or its more white then black. You also have to remember that people are in place because they are better at jobs then another person. Im not saying that as a race thing, maybe there are more white coaches then black coaches because as of right now that particular white coach is better at coaching then that particular black coach. Im not making it a race vrs race thing, im making it grown man vrs grown man thing. As far as better training and being given a chance i.think the NFL is doing fine with that. Every year multitudes of a lesser position are given a shot to rise up, and that includes minorities. Todd Bowles as an example right now. The thing is like i stated before, not to long ago all coaches and FO were white. It took years and years for alot of those coaches to climb the latter. Not to long ago minorities started to enter FO and coaching. They are now climbing the ladder, and as they do so more are starting to step into FO and coaching. It just comes down to the fact that there were originally far less so of course the numbers as of now are going to be skewed more to white. There are only a certain amount of positions, and this is the NFL. When you are in it, it generally becomes a life long career as long as you are not a player. That being said, alot of these players, white and minority alike when their playing careers are over theg go into coaching. Duece Staley as an example. Mike Singletary as another, who is a minority and had a HC gig. Look what Troy Vincent is doing, that is a higher position in NFL then most.
I will agree that it has improved markedly. There’s still a huge disparity. Affirmative action is not the solution and neither is the Rooney Rule. Claiming racism is not an issue at all is wishful thinking. You listed some good examples and there are many others, but there are still anywhere from five to ten qualified white candidates for every one of different race. This shouldn’t be ignored. I hope Bowles gets a shot coaching a team next season.
Lol, try being a white male trying to get into med school.
Plenty of spots in the carribean man — herbal remedies!
Lol, I got in though!
Congrats.
Congratulations white male doctor
It was a couple years ago but thanks.
I mean I’m Black/Asian I’m supposed to be an extremely intelligent, athletic god lol
You should apply for med school, you’re a shoe in.
haha not if he mentions the asian part. I’d go with native american.
Good call lol
I am white, just putting that out there before i say anything else. I think if i were black i would have mixed emotions reagarding the Rooney Rule. For one i would be happy because the rule is in place due to good intentions, however i would feel as though i would only be getting an interview partially due to my skin color. The NFL is a multi billion dollar industry whose number one goal is to earn money and expand. The better employees you have the easier it is to do that, regardless if you are black, white, brown, yellow, albino or purple. Rascism is alive but it is counter productive whenit comes to bussines, esspecially one as large and as much as the NFL is constantly in the media. I honestly beleive that if you took away the Rooney Rule the same amount of minorities and same exact minorities would be inthe same exact positions as if the Rule was in place which it is. The minorities that have their jobs today in the NFL didnt get their jobs/interviews because they are a different color then white, they got them because they deserved their interviews/jobs because they stood out more then their peers due to higher talent level or potential.
While I think the rule itself is not very effective and in practice, can translate into teams doing a token interview just to satisfy the Rooney rule, I do think the positive that it has had is that it brings awareness. Now every season there are new coaching hires, we are basically forced to discuss the Rooney rule. Each team has to think about it. With each hiring, fans and the media look back to see how the Rooney rule was satisfied. At the end of each offseason, there seems to always be a discussion about how many minorities actually ended up filling a spot (which is still way to few).
I think that awareness is a needed early step in the process before we actually get a better balance. Fulfilling the Rooney rule itself is often silly and I agree, it rubs me the wrong way as well (I don’t think it should matter, but I am saying this as a white, male). Interviewing someone you are not fully interested in hiring simply to fulfill the Rooney rule is absurd, and if done to the extreme case, should be considered insulting to the interviewee. And ultimately, to truly reach a balance, we will need to eliminate our awareness of minority status while maintaining a balance among the hirings, but before we can get to that point, I think awareness of the issue itself is important in persuading the change.
It doesn’t matter why you get the interview. It only matters why you get the job. The Steelers only interviewed Mike Tomlin to satisfy the Rooney rule, and he killed the interview and got the job. The same as any other job you apply for, they’re not going to ever explain why they picked your name out of the pile.
Adam Schefter
@AdamSchefter
4 minutes ago
Eagles requested GM interviews with Miami’s Chris Grier, Jacksonville’s Chris Polian and Houston’s Brian Gaine, per sources.
I guess i shouldn’t be surprised they’re trying to get a guy from Houston. Though they could easily be talking trades with all of those teams..
Chris Polian is concerning. Maybe he’s improved from his Indy days. I really shouldn’t speak badly of him. Indy’s draft record did seem to go south in Bill Polian’s last few years and that coincided with Polian being brought into the organization but we really don’t know how much he was involved in their draft decisions. I know Indy fans ripped him, but you can’t really rely on the opinions of local fans. It’s not as if he hasn’t gotten jobs on his own merit away from his father. Of the 3, I think Brian Gaine is the best bet. Most Dolphins fans thought that he should have gotten the GM job last year. The only reason Miami let him go last year was because Hickey wanted to bring in his own guy. He was Houston’s director of pro scouting this year. I don’t know much about Grier. I know the Jets also requested an interview with him.
Polian has more experience than I thought. He was actually IND’s vice president and GM when his father was president. He also was with Indy longer than I thought, including when Indy’s track record was better.
Resume
———-
1993 – Assistant – Player Personnel Department – Sacramento Gold Miners
1994-97 – Scout – Carolina Panthers(his father did work with them at the time)
1998-2000 – Director of Pro Scouting – IND
2001-3 – Assistant Director of Football Operations – IND
2004 – Assistant General Manager/Football Operations – IND
2005-9 – Vice President of Football Operations – IND
2009-11 – Vice President and General Manager – IND
2012 – Executive Scout – Falcons
2013-14 – Director of Pro Personnel – Jaguars
He worked with JAX’s GM, Dave Caldwell, with CAR and IND. There was an Indy Star article when he was a GM that painted him similarly to how Roseman is being painted now:
Late in the 2011 season, while he was still with the Colts, an
Indianapolis Star article quoted anonymous former employees who were
critical of Chris’ management style.
One source called him, “a toxic force who has brought this franchise
to its knees for reasons other than Peyton Manning’s injury.”
Read that comment again last week and asked if it hurt, Polian said:
“I don’t know about hurt. I’m very proud of what we accomplished. I’ll
put my name on everything we do.”
I can’t believe were at that time of year that is SO DAMN BORING. I hate talking about front office stuff. I just don’t care. Free agency starts march 10th? Too long for me.
Lets make crazy rumors!!!!
Nick Foles prefers honey bunches of oats over honey nut cheerios!!
Ahhhh!!! That explains the injury and the poor play pre injury. I bet you he was eating Honey Nut Cheerios last year.
His favorite movie is also Honey. He considers it a modern American classic.
Pros: Jessica Alba gyrating
Cons: Everything else
This certainly speaks poorly of his decision making skills.
There is a Senior Bowl and combine in between
Time for some investment in draft sites, guides, and conducting your own mocks on first pick!
I’m halfway through writing a thesis on my laptop with draft breakdown on the other screen, It’s the only way to live!
Just don’t trade down the thesis for two book reviews and an annotated bibliography.
Geoff Mosher
@GeoffMosherCSN
2m2 minutes ago
League source confirms to me that Chris Polian will interview with Eagles for personnel gig. Schefty reported 1st.
Ew. Didn’t this dumb kid get his father fired in Indy? Beware of the low-IQ nepotitism hires.
Bill Polian was fired when Manning got injured (and because Polian hadnt managed to restock, so the team was pretty much Harrison, Wayne, Manning, Mathis and Freeney who was all drafted 12+ years ago)
Colts fans HATE the dude.
Why would they hate the guy who gave them the above players, a SB and made sure they was in position to draft Andrew Luck when he was fired?
made sure they was in position to draft Andrew Luck when he was fired
Having the 1st OVR is not really a compliment to the performance of a team.
He still drafted them Wayne, Harrison, Manning, Freeney, Mathis.
Yes, I saw that. However the quoted paragraph can not be used in order to praise Polian Jr. Unless you’re saying the mentioned draftees contributed to getting the 1 OVR pick.
Haha, at least one Polian.
Since the Germans are in the minority I strongly push for a modification of the Rooney Rule so the Eagles will have to interview me for the GM vacancy. My number is: 646-249-6666. i am happily awaiting your call, Chip..
You can also be uniquely qualified for the director of fan engagement for the Munich Raiders. They’ll be the 2nd NFL team in Europe after the London Jags are up and running.
Me having played for the Munich Cowboys against the Munich Rangers, I am sure this city could use a third football team, although it might be a slightly bigger one this time.
Here are some interesting excerpts from a May 2010 article, Tommy Lawlor wrote specifically about Howie Roseman. ” The man who guided us through the offseason is General Manager Howie Roseman. He has spent the last few years preparing for his turn at running things. Howie wanted to be GM. He got it. Howie was given the task of adding youth, speed, and talent to the defense. He got creative. I thought Howie did a terrific job. He made several trades and brought in multiple players to help us. Some of the players will start. Some will be role players. I liked the creative, aggressive approach that Howie and Andy Reid took. Howie did well with trades. He got us good players and at reasonable value. Darryl Tapp could start for us if needed. He only cost a 4th rounder and Chris Clemons (who wasn’t a lock to make the team). Ernie Sims cost just a 5th rounder. He has the potential to be a real good WLB. Alex Hall is a guy they like, but we’re not quite sure where he’ll end up (DE or SAM).I loved what Howie did in the draft. He played the board to move up and back as it fit what we wanted to do in each round. We were aggressive and smart. We focused on certain areas and landed the players that we really wanted, with very few exceptions. Time will tell whether we made good picks. For now all we can judge is how we moved around and handled the situation. I thought he did a very good job overall. He might have landed us a couple of starters for the 2010 season in Brandon Graham and Nate Allen.
What kind of grade do we give Howie for his first offseason? I’m going with an A-. Essentially I’m giving Howie an incomplete grade for RCB. That spot is now at the top of the To Do list. He can address it this summer, wait for someone to emerge, or make it the unquestioned priority next offseason. If we have this same talk next May then Howie will have failed at RCB and I won’t be a happy camper. – Tommy Lawlor. ” End quote.
Philliesfan123 – The. Eagles cornerbacks have been horrible since that draft, it’s now 2015 and Howie still never fixed the ” cornerback problem. ” Also, that draft ( which Lawlor said ” was Howies first ” ), was in retrospect terrible …. as was the 2011 abject failure. Here ( for your pleasure is a list of pro bowl players that were drafted after Brandon Graham in the 1st round. I also listed others that were drafted after Nate Allen, in the 2nd round.
1st round
———————–
# 13 Brandon Graham ( no pro bowls )
# 14 Earl Thomas
# 15 Jason Pierre Paul
# 17 Mike Iupati
# 18 Markice Pouncey
# 21 Jermaine Gresham
# 22 Demaryius Thomas
# 24 Dez Bryant
# 27 Devin McCourty
***** Eight ( 8 ) pro bowlers drafted AFTER Brandon Graham !!
2nd round
———————
# 37 Nate Allen ( no pro bowls )
# 38 T J Ward
# 42 Rob Gronkowski
# 45 Zabe Beadles
# 47 Darwl Washington
******* Four ( 4 ) pro bowlers drafted AFTER Nate Allen !!
Exrta credit information …….
3rd round
———————-
# 86 Daniel Te’o Nesheim ( do I need to say it …. NO pro bowls )
( 5 picks later )
# 91 Navarro Bowman ( Penn State ) Eagles freaking back yard !
( 9 picks later )
# 95 Jimmy Graham
Yes, people will say all of this is revisionist history ….. o.k. , fine. I do believe that there are some very revealing insights into Lawlors fondness for Roseman, and also just how very, very, very bad, that draft was for the Eagles.