Winning vs Building
Posted: April 2nd, 2017 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 76 Comments »
In June of 1992 life was good for the Eagles. They were returning one of the great defenses of all time. Randall Cunningham was on the mend and would be healthy for the upcoming season. The team added RB Herschel Walker in free agency. Super Bowl, here we come.
I remember listening to sports radio in the spring/summer of 2004 and John Clayton talked about Jeremiah Trotter returning to the Eagles. I couldn’t believe what a great offseason the Eagles were having. Jevon Kearse. Terrell Owens. Shawn Andrews. Derrick Burgess healthy. All this added to a team that had won 12 games the year before and played in the NFC title game. Super Bowl here we come.
The 1992 team didn’t make it. Jerome Brown died days after the Walker signing. It also hurt that Rich Kotite was in charge of that team. The 2004 team did go to the Super Bowl. I can’t remember how the game turned out so I’ll just assume the Eagles won
The current Eagles team isn’t on the verge of being a Super Bowl team. They are retooling the roster from Chip Kelly’s offense and 3-4 defense to what the current coaching staff is looking for to maximize their schemes and philosophies. In theory, Howie Roseman, Joe Douglas and Doug Pederson should load the roster with young players. Focus on the future.
Life in the NFL isn’t that easy. As I wrote for PE.com, there is a balancing act.
First, there is no set schedule for teams. The Eagles could win 8 games this year. Maybe they win 10 or 11. Maybe they really speed things up and win 12 or more. That is possible. I said in the piece that you shouldn’t make Super Bowl plans, but that doesn’t mean the team can’t surprise us.
I think the Eagles will be a good team this year. We need to see how the draft goes and how healthy they are in August before we can have an idea how good.
If you are at rock bottom like the Browns, then it might make sense to move on from veterans and focus on young guys. The Eagles aren’t anywhere close to that situation. Yes, there are still holes on the roster. But there is also good talent and the serious potential to be a playoff team. Why not take a chance on a few older guys to see if they can help you win an extra game or two?
There is also the simple idea of trying to put together the best possible roster. The Eagles could have focused on adding a DE in the draft and then giving lots of reps to the rookie, Marcus Smith, Steven Means and Alex McCalister. Long gives you a quality veteran. He isn’t going to have 13 sacks and play at an elite level, but he could have 5 to 7 and be a solid part of a rotation.
You have to balance being good this year vs building for the future.
I think the Eagles are in a pretty good place. The best DL is 26-year old Fletcher Cox. The best LB is Jordan Hicks, who will turn 25 in June. The best DB is Malcolm Jenkins. He will turn 30 in December, but can still play well for another couple of years. Carson Wentz is young. So are Lane Johnson and Isaac Seumalo. Zach Ertz is in the prime of his career. The oldest key veteran is LT Jason Peters. He is a 35-year old freak, which I mean in the best possible way.
The Eagles are built to win, now and into the future.
*****
Jimmy Bama wrote a piece about the Broncos having interest in Jason Peters.
Make sure you read that carefully. The Broncos are interested in Peters. The Eagles aren’t shopping him.
Denver doesn’t have a good set of OTs right now. They signed Menelik Watson to play RT. They are projecting last year’s RT, Donald Stephenson, to play LT. They have a young guy named Ty Sambrailo who could play LT. It is easy to see why they might want Peters.
Jimmy does speculate that the Eagles might still be open to dealing Peters.
If the Broncos were willing to cough up, say, a second-round pick for Peters, I think the Eagles would do that in a heartbeat. It might not even take that much.
I could see the Eagles dealing Peters, but only if it was an offer too good to refuse. I think they would politely say “no thanks” if the Broncos offered a 3rd round pick for him. I’m not sure a 2nd round pick would even do it.
Remember what the message has been all offseason. The Eagles are focused on developing Carson Wentz. If you trade his Pro Bowl LT, you better get a strong offer in return. We’ve seen plenty of young QBs ruined by poor protection. The Eagles do have the depth on the OL to make this move, but you only do that if Denver blows you away with an offer. Peters might be 35, but he can play for another year, maybe two. This is a weak OT class in the draft so that also boosts Peters’ value.
I doubt anything comes of this, but this is the time of the year to discuss any and all rumors.
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Peters is a HOF talent and leader on the team. I know no trades have happened to this point in the offseason, but it feels like Roseman is dangling the team leader types which is bizarre to me.
Think Jenkins, Kelce, Peters etc are excited to see their names in trade rumors?
Again…Eagles NOT shopping Peters. Broncos looking around the league and identifying players they may have interest in. They like Peters. Huge difference.
Definitely an advantage from our perspective- better bargaining position (see Kendricks, Kelce for alternative reference)
That article was complete conjecture (like most stories this time of year) based on one person writing Jimmy an e-mail. He even said in the article that he had heard no rumors of it. Totally a “what if”.
That being said, I think a 2nd rounder would be the price they need . Johnson just moves to the left a year early.
True the story was all conjecture likely many stories this time of year. But Kempski said so up front unlike many reporters who never met a source they didn’t trust completely and then report useless drivel as fact. Three cheers for integrity in reporting.
I think they literally do not care at all. Period.
These guys have to move their lives when they change teams. They care. The question is how much?
I don’t care what the Broncos offer, Wentz needs Peters.
Really? You don’t want the crappy 6th round pick, or the shitty rights to swap our 5th with their 4th, that Shrewed John Elway would offer? (Sarcasm font)
In what world is Shrewed John Elway giving up a top 100 pick for a 35yr old stop gap to protect Trevor Simien for a year? Im not sure what I find crazier the notion that Elway would give up a second round pick for Peters, or that the Eagles might turn down a 2nd round pick for Peters. I find both statements crazy. ‘d give Jason Peters a piggyback ride all the way to denver for a top 100 pick. Sounds great, sigń me up. but I have a feeling no Eagle fan would be interested once we really find out what Elway is really offering. Think the most value we can get for Jason Peters is if a playoff team loses a starting tackle in August. Before the draft probably ISNT the best time to get value for a 35 year old bandaid
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i think it’s important to have Peters here for Wentz development until we are certain that Vaitai is ready to be the 16 game starter, but there is no way I could ever turn down a top 100 pick for a 35yr old unless we were really contending. I just think it be hard to get Elway to part with a 5th round pick,łet alone a 3rd. Sounds really crazy to me to be discussing 2nd or 3rd round picks for Jason Peters,but I’d be thrilled to be proven wrong
If Peyton Manning was there and they were contending, would it still be crazy?
I think they are hoping for Romo to shake loose eventually, and sign him. In which case they most definitely need a LT. (But they would also need to use a chunk of their cap space on Romo, which may not leave enough for Peters anyways.) Probably between the Texans and Broncos for Romo… be interesting to see which way he goes. Unsure the Broncos have that fearsome defense anymore.
“The Eagles are built to win, now and into the future.”
Yep, 7-10 games and maybe a first round playoff exit now and the foreseeable future.
Shouldn’t you be posting on Philly.com with CG25 and the rest of Negadelphia?
How is that being negative? You think this team is really going to win 11 games next year and that they are well-positioned to win a playoff game?
This strikes me as about an ~8-win team next year that might score its share of points (say increase up 26-27 pts/game) but is poised to give up a ton too.
We were better than our record last year. We didn’t lose too much in FA/retirements. We should be around 10+ wins this year (should have been there last year if you look at point differentials)
People who always think negatively apparently can’t see negativity. Haven’t even had the draft yet and you’re predicting a .500 team. You’re surrendering before the first shot has been fired. You don’t see that as negative? I certainly do!
CG25’s negativity has become an internet legend.
That quote stood out to me for comedic possibilities, too 🙂
Just wait ’till we get the woman beater so many of these cucks love so much.
Here’s a guy asking to be blocked.
Doing it now
It wasn’t the first time he’s jit a woman dipshit.
More so the “cuck” comment. Tells me how little you have to say that I’d like to hear in the future.
Yeah you’d probably hate to be reminded cheering for a football team means more to you than having anything resembling a moral core or any self respect. What has happened to the men of the West? Pathetic.
Your statement in no way addresses anything I just said.
I’d rather go 7-9 than have that wipe on the Eagles. Hard pass.
I’m done until Lurie sells it if that draft him. Not one shekel more.
T-Law:
The Broncos’ cap number stands at just over $16.1 million.
http://overthecap.com/calculator/denver-broncos/
Peters’ cap number for Denver, if acquired tomorrow, would be $10.45 million (if I’m reading his contract number correctly).
http://overthecap.com/player/jason-peters/756/
So the Broncos, even setting aside money for their draft picks, could fit Peters under the cap.
But the fit would be awfully tight and substantially cut into Denver’s cap flexibility (such as it is) . . .
Unless the Broncos cut OT Donald Stephenson — which would save $3MM to offset JP’s $10.45.
Seems like another impediment to anything more than off-season chatter — but doable.
The cap is always a consideration in moves. I didn’t go that far into it since I don’t expect anything to happen. Thanks for taking care of that angle.
Meh, imagine if another teams fans listened to WIP gobbledygook and passed it off as real speculation. When the beats in Denver publish this with some kind of source outside of talk radio, I’ll pay attention.
I agree but this math adds up esp if they get a certain geriatric QB we all love to hate lol
Further more that Defense is still more or less stacked and they have a good WR corp, better than ours for sure. I think they could have a shot with Trent Dilfer taking them all the way
I think it is a pipe dream that a team would trade a 4th round pick, let alone a 2nd, for a 1 year rental of a 35 year old tackle with a $10M salary.
Not like it stopped them from signing every good FA so they could make a run with Peyton a few years ago.
That’s different than trading a high draft pick for a player expected to play 1 year.
Winning vs building is a really interesting question. Both Lurie and Roseman downplayed any kind of expectations for a deep playoff run in their recent public conversations which seems to have upset a fair amount of the fan base. Understandably so given several issues including the lack of any kind of playoff success the past several years and long-standing lack of a championship.
What I want to know is what should be fan expectations should be this upcoming year? Neither Lurie or Roseman answered that question or really even provided much of a substantive guidance on what they thought. It kind of reminds me last offseason when the FO refused to utter the word ‘rebuilding’ despite it being clear as day when they traded for the No. 2 pick to draft Wentz.
I was fine with trading up for Wentz and completely understood the rationale behind it. I do wish Lurie or at least Roseman would have been a bit definitive about what their expectations were this season.
To me, expectations should be to win at least 9-10 games and make the playoffs. By stressing patience and being so generic in their answers, it seems like both Lurie and Roseman gave them leeway to write off another 7-8 win season next year as long Wentz supposedly develops further. It struck me as a bit of a management cop-out.
To me, being honest to the fans is a a media generated bs ruse. It involves completely saying “screw the poker game aspect of keeping leverage kn FA and the draft”, which is plain stupid.
They can keep plenty of leverage by refusing to talk about specific players or perceived areas of need.
‘have upset a fair amount of the fan base’ – maybe that fan base isn’t paying attention? Drafting Wentz was a crystal clear sign Eagles were rebuilding(even though there’s a fan base in denial). No owner or GM or Coach comes out and says we are rebuilding. As T-Law has said(over and over) – this team is about the future. The future isn’t here yet. The ship though – is pointed in the right direction.
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That doesn’t mean every Eagles move is perfect. As T-Law said, it’s a balancing act because there does need to be some guidance of the younger kids. I disagree with his reasoning(I’ll post about that later).
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Fans want win counts. I get that. Why won’t HR and Lurie commit? Because right now, they aren’t worried about win count – but they can not come out and say that. Last year, this year and who knows, maybe next year — this team isn’t about number of wins. Soon enough, there will be expectations like that(again, maybe next year). But this year is about foundation. They got their guy last year — now build around him. Wins will come….
That’s a cheap cop out and if that is the case why sign Jeffrey to the deal they did if they aren’t really concerned about winning this year?
If they aren’t, signing him didn’t make sense and they should trade hard to move Peters for the best deal possible this offseason. Maybe even somebody like Jenkins too while his trade value is at its peak.
It’s funny how the owner and GM downplay a deep playoff run the same year they raise ticket prices.
Trading Peters would be a clear sign they are writing off the season next year and makes some of the other moves this offseason especially the Jeffrey signing more puzzling in retrospect.
Can’t see the Eagles willing to risk the flak and public backlash they would get for making it.
It most certainly would not be a sign of writing of the season, considering theres and entire draft to add players to the team and the fact that we have Lane Johnson as the LT heir apparent.
Even without Peters and Kelce, we’d still have a better OL than at least 10 other teams including the Seahawks, Chargers, Dolphins, Vikings, Broncos and Bucs who all competed for play-off spots. While their lack of OL mostly lead to their demise and teams with good OLs mostly all competed for spots, its not a sign of giving up.
Again, there are few good OTs in this draft, and Vaitai has shown promise but I’m not ready to go all in on the guy. He was a late pick for a reason.
Still hoping Kelce and/or Kendricks get moved and the Eagles can pick up some picks in the upcoming draft for them.
Nice if it could happen sooner than later to get them a bit more leeway to sign or trade for a DT and CB.
The guys on the Denver sports talk show definitely had some inside information about the Broncos. The Broncos are looking hard for a left tackle and these gentlemen said that Denver has contacted the Eagles. The Denver sports guys (radio guys on the link below – NOT callers to show) speculated that the Broncos might be able to trade for Peters. These guys articulated a well thought out possibility of a potential trade. However, they also mentioned that Philly might even cut Peters because of the cap — there is absolutely no way that the Birds will release Peters. These guys have definitely heard that there is some noise behind the scenes – which is most likely 100% driven by the Broncos. I emailed Jimmy this information and I am positive that he would not have published his article unless he felt comfortable after talking with the Bronco beat writer. Like Mr. Lawyer said – the trade probably will not happen… But I would bet big money that the Broncos have approached the Birds about it.
http://1043thefan.com/147230/polumbus-and-cecil/
I don’t want Vaitai ever starting again. He’s a liability and nothing really worked when plays were called to his side.
I would be ok with trading away JP if
1. He’s ok with it and they somehow get a QB. I want the big guy to win a ring before he retires.
2. We get either a 2nd + 3rd round pick or Bradley Roby + their 4th.
Some funky trade scenarios
1. 14th pick + JP for the 20th pick and Roby?
2. JP for both of their 3rd round picks and a video of Jimmy K eating rocky mountain oysters?
Vaitai was a rookie fifth round draft pick last season. You don’t think there is any chance they he can improve?
He’s just a guy at best.
I think you are probably right, but he can still improve and may turn out better than we expect.
I think you have JP way over-valued.
I think you undervalue top 10 LTs and overrate top 15 CBs. Elway sure had and look at him now.
I’m not sure about your top 15 CB reference as I only commented on the value of JP.
I respect your opinion, but a top 10 left tackle at age 35 is at the very end of his career and has minimal draft pick value. In the past dozen years, here is the age of HOF tackles at retirement.
Walter Jones – 34 (missed 3 games his last year)
Jonathan Ogden – 33 (missed 5 games his last year)
Orlando Pace – 34 (missed 5 games his last year)
Willie Roaf – 35 (missed 6 games his last year)
Will Shields – 35
Can you name me 9 better LTs? Andrew Whitworth just got paid. Value is in the eye of the beholder, Peters is worth more to the Broncos than to us. If they want him then they have no real leverage during trade talks.
Can you name a team to offer a high draft pick for a 35-year-old lineman? In fact, can you name a team that traded a high draft pick for any 35-year-old player, regardless of position?
They don’t trade them for obvious reasons and out of respect for them since the vets want to pick a team to play for. Regardless of position? No dude, position is playing a major role in JP’s value. Why do you think that the Browns haven’t traded Joe Thomas after all of those years in the basement? Unless you’re getting an offer you can’t refuse then you’re not giving up a cornerstone of the team.
For a team in the Broncos position, they need JP to make one last run before they blow the team up again. Premium LTs don’t grow on trees, that’s why they typically stay with a team for a long time without getting traded. If you’re not overpaying then you’re not going to get one.
Unless/or until the Broncos get Romo, they’re not making at run at anything. JP is a mute point until they get a QB.
I couldn’t disagree more about Vaitai. I think he was a steal that has legit starting qualities.
I have posted the TEF metric from another blog that calculates short area explosion off combine/pro day numbers. This is the type of explosion needed at the LOS. Vaitai finished 5th or 6th last year and would have finished right behind Forest Lamp this year. He is an exsplosive athlete.
We all knew he needed to get stronger and improve his technique coming from that TCU spread. We started seeing that progression during the season. I expect his strength to improve going into this year.
I’m not expecting him to be Lane Johnson, but he could be every bit as good as Ricky Wagner who just cashed in the offseason. He has the athletic traits, appears to have the work ethic, and has a good OL coach. There is no reason he cannot continue to improve and develop into a quality starting RT.
Also you are nuts about your JP demands. If they give us a 3rd make the trade. That’s likely a starting CB, RB, slot WR, or DT for years to come. That outweighs one year of JP who will be cut next year anyway. I doubt we get a 3rd though
He was a revolving door turned into a turnstile that stifled the offense. He had no power to push guys or anchor. Yea sure “maybe” he could get stronger but to put faith in him isn’t optimal. The guy was a 5th round pick for a good reason.
He certainly wasn’t a turnstile outside the Redskins game. His flaws are largely fixable and his strengths are more rare than common. If you don’t want to develop guys like Big V don’t draft OL after round 3. I’m optimistic that he can be a solid starter. Never pro bowl caliber but good. Doug Free kind of sucks and look at Dallas’s OL. Vaitai can be part of a very good OL here in Philly.
Strengths of what? He wasn’t athletic or strong in college either. To say that most guys could get so much stronger in the league isn’t right. Kelce is still weak as hell with 7 years in a NFL strength and conditioning program.
Actually he is a very explosive athlete as I explained in my first response. He he Moreno explosive in sort spaces than 80-85% of NFL OL.
Frame has to be taken into account when discussion adding strength. Land Johnson and Kelce both came into the league underweight and needing to add strength. Their framers allowed them to go in different directions (with some assistance from PEDs). Vaitai has the big frame to add that strength.
You are drastically over exaggerating his struggles. He’s like your Kenjon Barner for Media Mike. You dislike him and are blinddd to anything else.
Explosive because he had a good broad jump? His tape was barely even average and his flaws were even exploited in college too. He didn’t project well and I don’t care if he does. If he works out then great but I’m not holding my breath.
That’s a bit over the top. It wouldn’t be optimal if he’s your plan A, but he wouldn’t be. If they traded Peters, either Sambraillo would be coming back as part of the deal or they would be looking to add Cam, Garcia, or Moton (to be the starter but they would have to beat out Vaitai and Barbre)
Of course he wouldn’t be, I didn’t touch on that since I don’t think JP will be traded.
I don’t want to write him in as starting RT either, but Vaitai was bad in ONE game… his first start. He showed improvement.
Improvement from revolving door to a turnstile that made the right side a black hole? Sure.
从百度进来的，博客不错哦！
“We’ve seen plenty of young QBs ruined by poor protection.”
David Carr comes to mind. No idea if he would have been good, but when you take 76 sacks your rookie year, that’s a poor way to start a career.
He must have been good friends with the tub.
Big difference between a team that’s been knocking on the door(Atlanta) and signing some vets vs. a team that’s not knocking on the door signing “break glass in case of an emergency” players(Eagles). It’s a great message to keep in mind though but there is nothing relatable between Atlanta’s situation and the Eagles.
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Rams situation – what a mess. However, I think a huge part of their problems have been coaches(and gm’s?). Spags? Fisher? Fisher is in contention with Rex as the history’s most overrated HC’s ever to be hired. Rex destroys teams and Fisher just doesn’t know what to do. Does CK fit into that category?
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Still a great message — have reasonable expectations about this team….
I think CK needs longer tenures to fit in that category. It’s not just the similarities, it’s the SUSTAINED ineptitude that puts Fisher and Rex in that category. You can say CK’s on that trajectory, but I don’t think he’s in their realm yet.
I thought trading Peters was always a possibility. The Broncos does make sense but only if they sign Romo. If they do get Romo, I can see then making a strong push to solidify their tackles.
Denver has many older players…and Romo isn’t a spring chicken. I don’t know if Denver would give up a first but I also don’t know if anyone they draft at #20 would have as much of an impact in the short term. They may be willing to overpay. Romo will cost a lot of cash and he is a bit fragile. I can’t imagine them going “all in” to get their QB, then skimping on the protection of that QB.
From the Eagles point of view, I can’t imagine them accepting anything less than a deal that would be considered overpaying. I can see Peters + a conditional pick in the 2018 draft for the Broncos 1st. I can also see the Broncos offering a 2nd and a 3rd. Losing Peters would make the team weaker and they don’t have to do it.
Of course, this is all assuming the Broncos get Romo.
The guys on the Denver sports talk show definitely had some inside information about the Broncos. The Broncos are looking hard for a left tackle and these gentlemen said that Denver has contacted the Eagles. The Denver sports guys (Polumbus & Cecil on 104.3 the fan — NOT callers to show) speculated that the Broncos might be able to trade for Peters. These guys articulated a well thought out possibility of a potential trade. However, they also mentioned that Philly might even cut Peters because of the cap — there is absolutely no way that the Birds will release Peters. These guys have definitely heard that there is some noise behind the scenes – which is most likely 100% driven by the Broncos. I emailed Jimmy this information and I am positive that he would not have published his article unless he felt comfortable after talking with the Broncos beat writer. Like Mr. Lawlor said – the trade probably will not happen… But I would bet big money that the Broncos have approached the Birds to test the water.
Tyler Polumbus is talking about Broncos and Jason Peters again today – he said that the Broncos should not hesitate to give up a 3rd or even a 2nd for Peters.
For ACViking: Also today Mark Schlereth was talking about Broncos and Adrian Peterson – his thoughts are that Denver will not pursue AP because he thinks that Broncos will need to keep money set aside for adding a left tackle.
I think Jason Peters is being over valued in TL’s outlook.
He was NOT an ELITE LT last year by any stretch. The number of illegal procedure penalties on him last year, tells us that he was not entirely confident in his skill set and was doing a lot of “anticipating.” He’s definitely in decline and if the Birds were to get a 3rd rounder for him, they should grab it. The idea of a 2nd rounder is delusional.
I honestly thought Jimmy was pulling our leg (April Fools) with the Peters story