Practice Talk
Posted: May 24th, 2017 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 130 Comments »No tackling. No real hitting. But something resembling football took place at NovaCare on Tuesday.
Let’s start with some quick nuggets.
There were 4 players absent. These are voluntary workouts so players are allowed to skid if they want. Jason Peters, Fletcher Cox and Donnie Jones all did that. Those are proven players so it isn’t a big deal. Marcus Smith also was absent.
Seems odd given his standing, but early word on Marcus Smith's absence is that he simply opted not to attend voluntary session.
— Tim McManus (@Tim_McManus) May 23, 2017
Maybe Smith is saving his legs for the summer and fall. Or maybe he’s just an idiot. I hope he has a good reason for this. Proven vets can skip workouts, but underachievers like Smith need every rep possible to try and prove why they should be on the team.
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Isaac Seumalo is your LG. Maybe. He worked there with the starters, but that was partly because Allen Barbre was hurt (calf injury). The coaches want Seumalo on the field and LG makes the most sense. Doug Pederson mentioned Seumalo will also get some work at C this summer. Jason Kelce will start there, but Stefen Wisniewski and Seumalo will get a chance to show what they can do.
One bit of bad news on the OL.
Eagles rookie UDFA center Tyler Orlosky to miss approximately two months https://t.co/4LR8OsGOYC
— Jimmy Kempski (@JimmyKempski) May 23, 2017
Sticking with C…Les Bowen has a piece on Jason Kelce and the challenges he’s dealing with.
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Brandon Graham was the LDE. Vinny Curry opened at RDE and Derek Barnett was behind him. The coaches will let Curry and Barnett fight for that job. The team has a high pick spent on one player and a big deal on the other so the Eagles don’t care who wins. They just want someone to play well.
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With Cox out and Beau Allen sidelined, DT was a tad thin. Destiny Vaeao started with Tim Jernigan. Rookie Elijah Qualls would help quite a bit here, but he can’t practice because of the NCAA’s ridiculous rule that requires him to wait for UW’s graduation day. This is an issue with several PAC-12 schools because they run on the quarter system and their schedule is different from most colleges.
There will be lots of reps for Vaeao, UDFA Winston Craig and Justin Hamilton. It will be interesting to see if any of them can take advantage of this.
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Our intrepid Philly reporters were on the scene and shared their practice notes.
We’ll open with Jimmy Bama’s thoughts on rookie DE Derek Barnett.
After the draft, there was quite a bit of negativity surrounding the Eagles’ selection of Derek Barnett. We addressed them all in a post a few weeks ago. Some of the concerns were downright ridiculous, while others were valid. Among the valid concerns was a lack of an extensive pass rush move repertoire.
Barnett’s best pass rush move, by far, is his dip/bend around the edge. Because many offensive tackles in college overplayed that move, Barnett would often get sacks with inside moves, though they weren’t exactly flashy or visually impressive. One move that was typically ineffective when he tried it was his inside spin move.
At practice today at RDE, working against Lane Johnson (playing LT), Barnett had an inside spin move that was better than anything I had seen from his games in college. If he can develop a go-to inside move, he’s going to be difficult to block.
In other Barnett observations, Barnett smoked Dillon Gordon around the edge after he was able to smack Gordon’s hands down. Gordon got an ear-full from Jeff Stoutland after the rep.
Barnett’s spin move at Tennessee wasn’t bad, actually. It was terrible.
But that’s the beauty of pro football. If you have a talented prospect and a smart coach, the coach can often teach the player how to do something or how to improve something. You can’t make a player bigger or faster or more talented, but you can teach him how to improve specific skills. It sounds like Chris Wilson has done a good job with Barnett and working on his spin move. That’s important for someone who loves to fly off the edge. He must have a counter move to use on OTs that sell out to protect the edge. They are vulnerable to the inside, which is where a spin move would have Douglas aimed.
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Tim McManus wrote about the WRs.
In one sequence, Wentz took a quick drop and fired an intermediate pass to Jeffery that was a little high-and-outside. With linebacker Mychal Kendricks quickly descending on the play, Jeffery extended his long arms and snatched the ball out of mid-air, prompting Kendricks to slap his hands together in frustration.
“It’s been great with him,” said Wentz of Jeffery. “He plays on-time, he knows what he is doing. His catch radius is impressive; that’s the first thing that jumps out at me. So I’m just looking forward to continuing to build on that relationship.”
Last year the hope was that the receivers would catch the average pass. Now they will be expected to do that and the hope is that they will make difficult catches, like the one mentioned above. The WR corps can be drastically better.
Per everyone’s practice notes, the WRs were much better, with one small exception. Or maybe I should say a big exception. DGB struggled all day.
New Eagles coach Mike Groh to Green-Beckham, who was running route with his head down: "Stop looking at the ground! What's on the ground!?"
— Tim McManus (@Tim_McManus) May 23, 2017
Early impressions of Groh is that he is vocal, authoritative in practice setting.
— Tim McManus (@Tim_McManus) May 23, 2017
The Eagles receivers needed some tough coaching after last year. If the guys can handle that, they can play better on Sundays. If they can’t handle tougher coaching, get rid of them and find some new guys. This is just one day so don’t make too much of it, but I hope DGB got the hint. This ain’t 2016. There is real competition this year and you have to earn everything.
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More on the WRs from Brandon Lee Gowton.
• You probably won’t believe me — and I don’t blame you at all — but I think Nelson Agholor might have had his best practice I’ve ever seen today. I didn’t see him drop or bobble a single pass. He actually made some tough catches and ran crisp routes. Agholor has a long, long way to go before he’s seen as a good receiver. But this was a good start for Day 1.
• Mack Hollins is the only Eagles wide receiver who wasn’t wearing gloves. He had some sticking out of his pockets but I didn’t see him put them on. I don’t know if this really means anything but I just think it’s weird/noticeable when a receiver is catching with their bare hands. JMatt has done it at practice in the past. Anyway, enough glove talk. Hollins looked pretty good to me. Nothing overly flashy but no big mistakes.
While DGB didn’t handle the situation well, it sounds like Nelson Agholor did. Good. He really struggled last year, but the kid has talent. It would be great if things clicked for him and he played well.
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Jeff McLane has his practice notes here.
I was more interested in his depth chart posted here.
That means very little because it is mid-May, but I’m always interest to see who is playing where and where they are slotted in the rotation. Steven Daniels was the #3 MLB. Not of interest to most, but fascinating to me. Dillon Gordon was the backup LT. I love seeing stuff like that.
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The guys from PE.com put up some practice notes. Fran Duffy and Chris McPherson did a good job, as you would expect.
1. If I had to list the biggest observation from the first day of Organized Team Activities, it would be that LeGarrette Blount‘s size and physical running style could potentially be a “tempo-setter” for the offense if he can be as productive as he was in 2016 with New England. Listed at 6-0, 250 pounds, Blount has a linebacker’s build as he charges toward the line of scrimmage. He is going fit in nicely, especially once the weather turns frosty in Philadelphia. Fran Duffy noted that Blount busted off a couple of big runs in the 11-on-11 action today, and after one big run head coach Doug Pederson made it a point to give a fist bump to the newest option in the Eagles backfield. – Chris McPherson
7. Rookie receiver Mack Hollins was a player who I wanted to really focus in on today and he did not disappoint. Not only did he look the part with a chiseled 6-4, 220-pound frame, but he moved really well for his size. When comparing the way he got in and out of breaks with other bigger receivers on the roster, it was noticeable how fluid the rookie from North Carolina was in drills. I didn’t see him drop a pass all afternoon. On special teams, he practiced with the first-team kickoff coverage unit and was nearly unblockable. I could hear two Eagles defenders commenting about how they didn’t want to have to block him in the special teams period at one point. Philadelphia is going to like this kid (and he gets bonus points for not wearing gloves although he said he will wear them once Training Camp begins). – Fran Duffy
250 for Blount? Wow. I thought he’d be like 235 or so. That’s huge. Can’t wait to see him in the preseason.
Hollins seems to get everyone’s attention. Let’s hope he continues to play well. He’s big, fast and tough. That sounds like a pretty good WR.
_
Am I the only person that thinks that Nelson Agholor could actually contribute this year? Prior to the draft with OBJ it was common to expect that WR’s take a few seasons before they really start to produce. He has the talent. His issues appear to be mental more than anything else. Maybe, just maybe with very little pressure on him he could actually start to play like the player all the draft gurus thought he was going to be before he was drafted. I guess most people have already labeled him as a total bust, but I am hoping that the kid turns the corner and gives us a reason to believe in him again.
You’re not alone. I expect Agholor to be the most improved player on the offense this year. He’s an exciting talent, and it sounds like he’s coming in with his head screwed on right. Add some maturity and confidence to that skill set, and we’re going to see why he was a top 20 pick. Which will be great news for the offense.
yeah i can see it, mainly because he isnt lazy. he actually has always tried hard.. maybe too hard!
I’m definitely routing for him which almost feels odd to say. My lingering concern is that I feel like he always looked pretty good in preseason and then when games come… I would love to see the light come on for him. I watched his college highlights the other day and it’s crazy what he’s capable of.
I’ve said repeatedly, looking at the games, even though he was terrible last year, he routinely got open against really good corners. Just never caught the freaking ball, and never found his place in the offense. He has the tools – speed, quickness, route running – to be really good. There is not nothing there. Maybe he will never become anything, but unlike pretty much all other busts I know of, he doesnt have sub par athleticism, injuries, bad work ethics or stupid brains. I haven’t given up on him yet. Glad they were forced to keep him around one more year.
Thats the frustating thing with him. The drops or confidence was never a problem in college.
Lets hope that with Smith and Alshon here that Agholor can perform better with less pressure
He did have a moderate amount of drops in college though. Was never known as a guy who made hard catches. There was a little talk about ‘concentration drops’ being something about him. But we are talking a handful of incidents, not something that should make a difference overall.
Yea you can tell though in his college film that he’s playing with some fire and intensity. Since being drafted he looks like he’s playing not to fail. As much as we laugh at the “Jeff Garcia is awesome because he’s so fiery!” people, sometimes people need to play angry and fired up to be at their best.
I am hopeful, if no longer expecting, that he can still turn his potential into talent.
When the strip club thing happened last year, I expected him to have a down year, I’m hoping he’s over it now.
Exactly.
The Marcus Smith story is puzzling. It seems out of character for him to no-show. He’s always had a good rep as a hard worker. Overdrafted, absolutely. But never lazy. This move doesn’t fit. And Doug not counting him among the absences in his PC made it even more strange. This one’s a head scratcher.
Perhaps the team has already given him notice that he is not part of their plans. Signing Chris long and drafting Barnett was probably the writing on the wall. Maybe the team plans to cut him shortly anyways so there was no need for him to risk injury at the OTA’s should he try to make another teams roster. Just my opinion.
Tim McManus had some cryptic tweet about how Pederson was unaware that MS2 wasn’t showing up initially and that the team was still looking into it. That sounds like he just didn’t show up and didn’t even tell anyone he wasn’t coming…definitely odd.
It is definitely out of character. Usually, he arrives on time, gets suited up, and THEN fails to show up…
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bcYppAs6ZdI/hqdefault.jpg
smell that? smells like football
Doesn’t taste like football, though,
Id LOVE to see DGB put it together. The kid could be a monster, hell he SHOULD be a monster!
so ill root for him, because if he does get his shit together.. just imagine it!
Alshon Jordan Mack DGB
that would be fun to watch
My guess is the 5 WRs will be Alshon, Jordan, Mack, Smith and Agholor.
They are not giving up in Gibson, think they’ll keep 6. He plays teams too and could also be a factor as a returner.
Agree – Gibson (unless he’s horrible in camp) makes the team.
yeah…
but…. DGB rookie year was better than anything nelson has ever done
barely
You really think Gibson doesn’t make the team? Talented 5th rounders who have special teams above average talent very rarely do not make the team..
I’m honestly hoping Smith gets cut. Don’t see him here beyond next year and I’d rather use that spot for Gibson or even dgb
I don’t get that. If he plays poorly in camp/this year, OK.
But “I don’t like veterans with proven production, speed, and rapport who a SB winning QB of his former team really wanted back (Flacco)”.
I also am sick of people talking about next year. It’s May, 2nd day of OTAs for THIS year, and people are already looking ahead. Smith has taken zero snaps in an Eagles uniform in NFL games, and people are ready to “move on”…. to me that’s silly.
I guess it’s not that we want Smith to fail and get cut. If he plays awesome that’s great he’s not going anywhere. But, IF he gets cut it’s presumably because Ags, Mack or Gibson have outplayed him in TC, which would be the better outcome for THIS year (because outplayed him means we unexpectedly found someone on the roster even better) and for next year, since we’d save cap space, and have a younger, cheaper and presumably better #2 WR moving forward.
Good points. And I get that. I really do.
But – how many seasons has Alshon had with no injuries or suspensions? 1/3 of his 6 year career.
So if he goes down (fingers crossed he doesn’t), you and the “hope Smith doesn’t make the team” crew, want to rely on a slot-only (pretty much) Jmat (who is rumored to be moved), rookies, and Ags and DGB potentially?
I don’t.
#Whyarepeopleignoringdepth?
Good point…I don’t disagree. I’m happy Torrey Smith is on the team and I anticipate he’ll remain the starter. I guess in my estimation, Smith only gets cut if the other guys force him out. In that instance Ags and the rookies are playing so well that we have a solid starter AND depth.
Regardless, I don’t actually want Smith cut I’m excited to see what he can do. But, if he does get cut, I’ll be happy…not because I want him gone, but because the only reason he’d get cut this year is if something truly exciting and worth being happy about happened (namely Ags looking like a stud 1st rounder finally and our rookie WRs looking like great picks). Does that make sense? If not don’t spend too much time trying to decipher my convoluted logic, it’s not all that important or interesting or a thought honestly.
He’s here on an insurance policy type contract. If no one else plays like a competent WR2 he’ll be a starter for us this year so that we’re not deficient at the position, the moment one of the cheaper, younger guys plays like a WR2 that you want on the field, he’s gone and it could be as early as before this season starts. We’re only on the hook for $500k in dead money if he’s cut before the season.
Him being cut would be the best case scenario. It would mean one of the three younger guys (Ags, Mack, Gibson) showed up and are playing like a legitimate starting WR, we’d save $4.4M in cap space and save an extra roster spot by only going with 5 WR rather than 6. Plus it most likely means Agholor had turned into not a bust of a first round pick.
I’m more or less on the same boat if he gives the slightest whiff of Reuben Randle-itis. If he distinguishes himself from the guys behind him I completely welcome him (because then he may be worth signing for next year).
No way Gibson gets cut
I was reading this comment waiting for the sarcasm to drop… and it didn’t…
I used to think like this about him, but now it’s like…psh… I’m done. Let’s see:
-consistently performs poorly? check
-barely ever “flashes”? check
-is now surrounded by better players – a lot? check
Why are you even focusing on him?
Mack Hollins is 1″ shorter but has larger hands and longer arms. DGB is not long for this team.
why am i focusing on him? because if he does put it together well have a freakish WR core
DGB already is a monster. Unfortunately, he is Grover. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/daee0b936359383beace1a9cfc1be5f29130a7d4b9fc19dadc7f207b58c6ce0f.png
And it’s almost the end of the book.
Near (being cut) Far (away from being a quality NFL WR)
I’m over DGB, he’s had his chances but it was low-risk, high reward if he worked out
Yea sometimes you just gotta recognize that while a player like DGB technically has the perfect, build a player in Madden-esque body, to dominate, that he simply doesn’t have the necessary skills to excel at football. If you can’t run routes well, you can’t track the ball well downfield, you can’t create separation, you don’t use your huge body well to box out smaller defenders, you can’t time your jumps properly, you’re not good at high pointing the ball, you have bad hands and drop a ton of passes and consistently play with a pathetic meekness for a guy his size, that’s a lot of ground to make up for a light to go on.
I think DGB is just a classic waste of physical talent without any actual skill at playing WR. I’ve never once seen him use his size or speed to his advantage on a professional football field. Not once. It’s pretty hard to be that physically imposing and fast and not once see the defender be overwhelmed or outmatched physically by it. What’s the use of all that size and speed if you never use it.
youre way over the top here, ive seen DGB make plays and use his size, go check out his rookie year highlights
also his rookie year he showed he can get deep and make plays, averaged 17 yards a catch, last year i thought he showed something else.. the ability to get YAC! i was impressed by how strong he was after that catch and how tough he is to bring down… this is the 1st year hes been on a team for a 2nd year in a row… im hoping he can put it together
I’ll be the first to admit that I did not follow DGB’s rookie season at all, let alone closely enough to form a decent opinion of him one way or another. His numbers were ok his rookie year. 17 yards per catch is nothing to scoff at. 32 catches and 4 TDs are nothing to write home about though. The most damning thing to me about bringing up his rookie year and talking about how great it was, though, is the fact that the Titans had him locked up for 3 more years on a relatively cheap salary. If he showed so much promise his rookie season, how come they traded him away for the first lukewarm body someone offered for him? I’d have to think that if he looked so promising that rookie season, some team somewhere would have offered more than a journeyman 3rd string tackle like Dennis Kelly.
That being said, I took your advice and checked out his highlights from his rookie season down in Tennessee. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq4nJVtHgWk
And, you are right, he makes some really impressive catches in that video. Five impressive catches, 1 decent hands catch along the sideline, 1 decent run after the catch for about 7 yards, and a handful of passes that he caught while unnecessarily jumping and catching the ball against his chest instead of with his hands. The impressive catches are just that, they’re extremely impressive. He clearly has the talent to be a beast at WR. However, those types of plays are less common than the types of things we saw from him week in and week out last season that are holding him back.
A better way to evaluate him would be to look at every single one of his targets from that year, which you can find here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-CwGEu6fqQ
Along with those honestly impressive and promising plays you’ll also see a bunch of dropped passes, poorly ran rounded off routes, lack of effort and lack of attacking the catch point, and difficulty tracking the ball.
As for being too over the top, you are right, I was. But, everything I said was based off real issues that I saw with my own two eyes last year. And, most of them are issues that have continued to be a problem since college. Sure he flashed the occasional run after the catch ability, but that was totally outweighed by his consistent poor play.
He runs poor routes.
– This was a regularly pointed out deficiency in his game coming out of college: “Struggles to free himself from press coverage and can be taken completely out of his routes. Runs sloppy, rounded routes. Fails to set up his breaks and frequently leads cornerbacks to his destination. Slow to adjust routes and find open space against zone. Fails to create the separation that is potentially available for him at top of routes.”
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2015/profiles/dorial-green-beckham?id=2552491
– This showed up regularly last season: http://phillysportsnetwork.com/2016/11/08/dgb/
I’m not crazy about this guys commentary or analysis, but just focus on DGB in those clips and watch his route running. Tell me if you see any sharp angular cuts or if its all just rounded off lazy patterns without much effort put into turning the CBs hips before making a sudden break to create separation?
– You can clearly see the difference in route running ability between Agholor and DGB in this drill:
https://twitter.com/kracze/status/867043424666624004
– Here’s what Mike Mayock had to say at the end of last year: ”I remember watching one of his games when he was at Missouri,” NFL Network draft analyst Mike Mayock said. “It might’ve been the SEC championship game. The kid had no clue what he was doing, no idea how to run a route. Yet he changed the game. Right now, all I see is a guy who can run some slants and some of the big-body red-zone plays. That’s about all you see. At least with the balls they’re throwing at him. He’s got a long way to go as a route-runner. He simply has not progressed at all since college”
2) He does not track the ball well. Please refer to the plays at or around these times (4:00, 5:30, 6:15, 6:55, 8:10) in the youtube video of all his 2015 targets to see what I’m talking about. Check the third GIF down on this game review to see what I mean http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2016/10/19/13319250/eagles-film-room-week-6
3) Can’t create separation: refer to the route running above as well as the videos/gifs in this article http://www.crossingbroad.com/2016/11/dgb-is-upset-because-hes-not-getting-the-rock.html. Heck just look at what Janoris Jenkins did to him in the Giants game.
4) Doesn’t use his huge body to his advantage: This is my biggest gripe with DGB. And, this was also a problem for him in college as well. He plays lazy and lackadaisical a lot of the times and routinely gets out muscled by smaller CBs. I can’t find a video of his 2016 targets, but if you watched all the games last year you must remember how frustrating it was to watch him get out jumped and out muscled by 5’10” CBs.
From Jimmy Kempski: “The play that was particularly bothersome this season to me was against the Lions Week 5. The Eagles ran a fade to DGB, in which he was being covered by shrimpy Nevin Lawson, who goes 5’9, 190. DGB had nine inches and about 50 pounds on him, and yet, Lawson easily out-muscled DGB on the play for an incompletion. Frank Reich said during the week that the Eagles should win that matchup 90 percent of the time, but the unfortunate reality is that DGB doesn’t play to his size.”
Against the Baltimore, he let a 5’9, 177 pound corner Tavon Young, out muscle him for the ball in the end zone to force an incomplete pass. That’s just embarrassing! – Here is a photo of the play http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/cornerback-or-wide-receiver-what-do-the-eagles-need-more-part-1-of-3-121916
5) Can’t time jumps properly. You can see multiple instances of this in the video of all his 2015 targets. While occasionally he goes up and high points the ball like a boss and makes an impressive catch, he’s not consistent, more often than not, he mistimes his jump and misjudges the ball. Hell, here’s a few notes from as recent as this weeks OTAs: “[DGB] also totally failed to win a jump ball situation deep down the field. The 6-5 receiver simply got out-muscled by a leaping 5-11 Patrick Robinson, who knocked Wentz’s attempt down.” “DGB simply mistimed his Jump”
6) He has bad hands: He dropped 12 passes last year, dropping 25% of all catchable balls thrown his way. He had a high drop rate in college and dropped quite a few passes his rookie year as well. He has only a 48% catch rate for his career. Even if you use more generous drop stats that put his career drop rate around 6%, he’s still has the 18th highest drop rate in the league for WRs.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/5woy8t/the_50_nfl_players_with_the_worst_hands_based_on/
And, as for YAC: He average 3.9 yards after the catch last year. That’s less than both Ertz and Celek. He definitely flashes run after the catch ability that makes you think he’s going to be an unstoppable stud, but like everything else, he simply does not do it with any consistency at all.
http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/cornerback-or-wide-receiver-what-do-the-eagles-need-more-part-1-of-3-121916
i know all about his weaknesses
but last year he showed something different. Rather than being a deep threat, he showed some YAC skills for a big WR that u dont see in a lot of guys.
this is his 1st time playing back to back seasons on the same team since.. idk.. high school? i think..
anyway, its summer, perfect time to hope for the best
I agree. Let’s see what a coaching change can do.
I like where his head is at at least. It starts with confidence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVtiWetjE-4
Let’s hope he can finally make that step. Looking at college tape, the talent is there. Needs to stop letting it get in his head and just play. If he can turn it around and just be even mediocre instead of horrible, he’ll be okay to put in to give someone a breather.
Agholor has the talent, he just is in his own head. If they can give him a more limited roll and he can just focus on playing he could have a solid season this year.
The one thing I like most about what I saw from Jeffery yesterday (except for no dropped passes) was that he catches passes with his hands – he doesn’t trap the ball against his body. Using your hands gives a sure grasp. When you trap the ball against your body, it can bounce out. Encouraging first day all around.
It’s nice that he doesn’t jump unnecessarily at the catch point like a lot of our WRs, particularly Matthews, did last year.
It’s infuriating to watch dropped passes when someone like Matthews who’s 6’3″ jumps and tries to catch the ball at his waist. Just stay on the ground, maintain focus and catch the ball.
This time last year, Carson was the #3qb. What a difference a year makes. Any word on how he’s looking so far?
HEres an interesting article about how his mechanics have improved:
http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2017/5/23/15682588/carson-wentz-mechanics-eagles-release-delivery-throwing-motion-footwork-arm-quarterback
Thanks. Encouraging stuff.
It showed how Wents was dropping the ball .. lots of that in the organization
I don’t know, but the main thing that made my ears pop up in Tommy’s writeup was that Alshon caught a pass that was high and to the right. Sailing passes high was a pretty noticeable technical flaw of Wentz’ last year, and I’d gladly trade a worm-burner for an easily interceptable flyer.
Agholor’s season will hinge on whether he can play special teams as much as how well he plays as receiver.
At best, he will be the #3 WR behind Alshon and JMatt, assuming he plays lights out and supplants Torrey Smith. If he can’t beat out Torrey, his playing time and targets will surely be limited as Ertz will also eat up targets.
At a minimum, Mack Hollins will surely suit up and play special teams. If Gibson plays well in preseason and can excel at special teams (he was a kick returner in college), that would leave 6 receivers on the roster (DGB is a goner).
Honestly, at 6′ and 200 lbs, there is no reason Ags cannot excel at special teams. It comes down to physical toughness, which Ags seems to be lacking.
IF that light does turn on for Ags he’s more than just a number 3. I like Jmatt but I think Ags ceiling is a lot higher than his even if his floor is also lower.
Agreed. I’d love to see Ags get some reps in the slot- I think with his change of direction speed and quickness, he could be very good while also offering a vertical threat.
He has all of the tools to be a successful NFL player, but something in his mind goes haywire during game days. It really looks like he tries too hard to excel.
Yea I’d love to see that incredible burst in the slot too. I think we’ve given up a decent amount of easy free yards from small quick slot receivers like how Wes Welker was used in NE on those inside outside option routes that are nearly undefendable in order to use Matthews’ size advantage against smaller nickel CBs. For all the talk about how much of a size advantage JMatt gives you in the slot, I’ve never seen him use it. That’s not to say he’s a bad slot WR, he’s not, I just have never seen him win because he was bigger than the guy covering him. I’ve seen him lose though plenty because he’s not faster than the guy covering him.
Fundamentally, I think you want a guy in the slot that catches everything. The slot WR is clutch on 3rd downs. That doesn’t sound like Ags (or Jmatt for that matter)
Yep…if light goes on he’s got starting quality skills and a starting quality contract, particularly next season. If it doesn’t, we won’t waste our time dressing him for special teams and playing 0-5 snaps a game as a 4th or 5th WR. At that point we’ll know he’ll be cut next year and would have been cut this year if not for dead cap costs being prohibitive, and would most likely rather get the rookies playing time.
At this point in his career, what Ags did at USC is irrelevant. His ceiling has nothing to do with what he did 3 years ago in college.
Ags and JMatt suffer from the same fatal flaw, bad hands. I’m not sure why people think his bad hands are just in his head and he can overcome that, JMatt sure hasn’t.
I don’t understand why everyone’s latching onto “confidence” or “swagger” either. There have been lots of players who looked great in college but don’t have the right combination of abilities to thrive in the NFL. Looking for a magic switch doesn’t seem realistic to me.
Yea I see this season going one of two ways for Ags. Since cutting him will cause his cap number to actually go up by over $2.1M, he’s not getting cut no matter how badly he plays. With our current cap resting up against the upper limit there’s no way we add an additional $2.1M in cap charges to this year just to rid ourselves of him. So whether or not he plays special teams will have no impact, at least on whether or not he makes the squad, as I assume that’s a given.
So, either he 1) plays lights out, finally realizing his full potential, while Smith looks anything less than a darn good starting WR, making Smith expendable (cutting Smith would free up $4.4M in cap space as only $500k is guaranteed). In that scenario, Ags becomes the starter alongside Alshon and the two rookies fill out 4th and 5th spots at WR…Or 2) he continues to play like he has the last two seasons and he rides out this year as the 5th or 6th WR, possibly even inactive on game days and is cut two seconds into the offseason.
The way I see it given Smith’s contract structure, Smith is an insurance signing. That’s not the type of contract typically given to someone that you expect fully to be the starter for the next three years. Essentially zero guaranteed money even in year one makes him immediately cuttable. He’s essentially here as insurance to provide hopefully competent WR#2 play IN CASE Agholor (or even one of the rookies) can’t do so. If neither of those three step up at least we have Smith available on three consecutive one year deals. The moment any one of them, Ags especially, step up and grab that starting spot Smith is gone (so long as he’s not playing at some ridiculous near pro bowl level).
So this is it for Ags, either he beats out Smith in TC this summer or he ends up buried on the depth chart and looking for work next spring (assuming an injury doesn’t change that dynamic).
What I don’t see happening is him playing mediocre or worse at WR and still dressing as a special team WR/4th-5th WR over the two rookies that we’d want to see in game action above a guy we’re definitely cutting next year if he can’t beat out Smith.
I’m hoping that we can ship out DGB to a team that has a similar under performing CB on their roster; but then again, with how he’s playing and how he played in the past, we may be looking at a Trash Can type of player.
Yea we gave up a trash can player for him after he had a semi decent rookie year at least production-wise. Not sure what the rest of the league would value him at after seeing his atrocities on the football field last year especially when he’s pretty much a lock to get cut.
Maybe a trash bag?
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/feea94753a1d7719ef7087fabbd348e01beb5974a629454a005a71d0b995b242.jpg
I was thinking smaller, don’t think he’s worth THAT much
Well, he is 6’5″. And I was working on the premise that he is a big pile of garbage (bags).
Fair enough.
He has less value now than when the Eagles traded for him, and that value is about zero. You aren’t going to get anything in trade for him that would be better than what’s going to be available on the waiver wire.
He’s so big, don’t need no helmet
(pardon the redundancy…. I posted below something about this) but..
For all the “hope Torrey Smith doesn’t make the team” – to me that’s misguided.
Alshon usually (2/3rds of his career) doesn’t play 16 games. Beyond him we have Jmat (only a maybe pending result of trade) and “slot only” guy, Agholor, and rookies.
So you want to risk that depth for…uh….what? Cap space? More rookie development.
Psshh… I’m 33 years old and I feel like never in my life have we really had true quality depth at the WR position, now I feel like we finally do (of course I could be wrong), and now fans want to take our depth, and deplete it…
I get your point and I guess I wanted to clarify. My post was in response to a depth chart me ck that didn’t include Gibson. When I said that I hope Smith gets cut it would mean that Mack, gibson and agholar show enough to where Smith becomes redundant. He’s a deep threat which is what we hope Gibson and Mack are(hopefully even more for him). If they don’t look good or trade j matt then we should definitely keep smith
So now that we have depth we are worried about redundancy!? Lets go with zero backups then. Cap room galore!
Except that you would be expecting that Agholor and/or the rookies will be able to translate that preseason excellence into the regular season — when you have no track record of them producing in the NFL at all. It’s hard to trust that, even if they look good. Granted, if Smith looks 49ers terrible, then it could happen that way I guess.
I feel the same way about trading JMatt. We finally have depth and ppl want to trade the leading receiver on our team the last three years, who has set records in receptions and yardage.
But that’s different. You want Jmat on the outside if Jeffery goes down or on the Lane Johnson plan?
I hope Torrey Smith doesn’t make the team. I hope that Alshon, two rookies, and the disappointing drafted duo are all so incredibly good and uncuttable that Torrey becomes expendable.
I also hope that I find a winning lottery ticket blowing across the sidewalk so that I, in fact, win without playing.
I think it’s highly unlikely that Smith gets cut — you’d have to have three players who are clearly better than him, and I have serious doubts that list gets beyond one. Maybe Agholor suddenly reaches his potential, or a rookie looks lights-out, but are you really going to risk your depth over players who haven’t produced in the league before.
Now… *next* year you will have a full year to evaluate everyone, and that decision will be a lot more interesting.
I agree wholeheartedly.
We just drafted two rookies that can play on the outside. Sure they would be more effective in the slot in their rookie year but they don’t lack the ability to play on the outside like Matthews does.
Yep – so i guess we should just pencil them in for instant rookie dependability – I mean I know they weren’t 1rst round picks, but all talented rookie WRs are dependable, consistently year one – like Agholor right?
Look, I really like Gibson and Hollins. Super excited about them. But still…
It depends on what your expectations are then. I can see them getting 30-70 yards a game which is in line for #WR2/3 production.
Ok, maybe. I just think cutting Smith hurts the team and helps basically not at all.
I think people are rushing to (assured) judgement on rookies and trying to take our depth and flip it for a lack of depth.
Remember, I’m talking about a full season long where injuries happen. I love the depth with 3 solid vets (17, 81, 82), and talented youth behind them (17,10,80). But I hate the idea of putting that strength of depth in jeopardy – especially if they want to part or have the flexibility to part with 81…
It’s like a parent seeing their adult child finally reach economic stability with a solid salary and savings, then finding out that they blew the savings on a flashy luxury car right away…
We’re only cutting Smith if the rookies or the two underachieving WRs are outperforming him. Which would be a good thing since they’re much younger and cheaper. Smith is more proven but he has been on the downside of his career so he’s not guaranteed to be a starter. He could have a rebound season with us since he’s no longer playing with Flacco or Gabbert/Kaep. However, WR has been a position that rookies have an easier impact in recently.
I don’t agree with your analogy. Why just put your new toys in the toy box when you can use them? We’re going to use Gibson and Hollins regardless. It doesn’t matter if they start or are just subpackage players for their rookie year.
Sure. It all depends on how Smith performs. I’ll agree to disagree.
I know I’m late, but I’ll just say I agree that its dumb to root for anyone to not make the team. If people want the rookies to play lights out and better than smith, im on board. But I still want smith to be really good too. Then you can trade rather than cut. There is not enough talent to go around in the nfl. Some team will need decent receivers. However, all the receivers have a lot to prove still. They are far from having depth at this point. Should be a fun preseason to see how all these new receivers pan out… Ags too.
I know I’m late, but I’ll just say that I agree that its dumb to root for someone to not make the team. Talent is scarce in the nfl, so some team will trade for leftovers. Sure I’d love to see the rookies play lights out and better than smith, but I want smith to be good too. But thinking rookies will play that well is dreaming. All of these WRs have a lot to show and at this point there is no guaranteed depth. The preseason should be fun to see how all the new receivers pan out… Ags too.
Agreed.
“For all the “hope Torrey Smith doesn’t make the team” – to me that’s misguided.”
Yup, couldn’t agree more.
I am interested to see what will happen with DGB now that he is getting some decent coaching. I am not at all concerned that he looked like an idiot on day 1. In fact, I am glad about it. We all know everything was not ok with DGB. He should be getting yelled at during practice.
Now he has a chance. I wouldn’t bet on him, but there’s a chance. Hopefully he continues to get yelled at in practice and maybe, just maybe, he won’t be committing the same mistakes throughout training camp.
If Groh pans out to be the much improved WR coach that we were hoping for (like especially if Agholor really does make a big jump, and the rookies develop nice) AND they get rid of DGB, or he stays and sucks – that will give us the definitive verdict on DGB.
Then again, many believe we already have that definitive verdict and I’m not disagreeing…
It’s just practice but this is that part of the year where any football news gets people hyped up. Kenny Britt had some character concerns as well and Groh helped him have his best years. Maybe he could do the same thing for DGB but don’t expect a miracle to happen.
I think he ends up being cut. Id put my money on Agholor turning it around. I dont think DGB is ready
DGB came in uninspired and his play showed it. Aggie came in inspired and his play showed it. Rookie came in and was impressive(even on sT’s). You should be concerned….
Im more concerned about Wentz. I guess I don’t see what a lot of other peopl in Philly see. If you had your choice of either Wentz or Winston or Luck or Mariota, to me Wentz is a distant 4th. I see Wentz as a solid QB, but not elite. To me he is Ryan Tannahill and not worth giving up 5 picks for. Call me crazy, but I think I would have rather saved the draft picks and built around Bradford, or drafted Prescott in the third round and traded Bradford and had 2 1st round picks this year and a second next year. Man, I hope I’m wrong.
Crazy
Well, hopefully this year will set your mind at ease. 🙂
From your mouth to God’s ears!!!
I’m not.
You’re crazy.
Think of it this way, passing on Wentz in favor of extra picks…is what the Browns did. Do you want to be the Browns? Do you?
In all seriousness, he might not work out. That is true of every pick. But it was the best chance at greatness we have had in a long time, so we took it. So far, so good. Enjoy the ride. When it ends there will be plenty of time to worry over what comes next.
We differ from Cleveland in that we had a QB who we really didn’t give much of a chance. Bradford came to us still rehabbing an acl and wasn’t healthy until about 6 games into the season..We had the same crap receivers with Riley Cooper and Miles Austin as starters, a running game that just didn’t happen, and a defense that let up 35 points a game in the last 7 weeks. Despite that, he threw for 3,700+ yards in 13 1/2 games. Without question, he’s more accurate than Wentz and understands the game. He’s a bit of a “black cat” in that he had no weapons in St. Louis, turned out had no weapons in Philly, and in his first game in Minnesota, AP goes down for the year, and was subject to the worst OL I’ve ever seen. My confidence in Wentz is a little shaky after seeing him airmail balls over wide open receivers heads. Hope that changes, and hope we win 12 games this year. This is the year that will tell us though……we acquired weapons all over the field.
Oh, hell no, Bradford sucks. He is a bottom-half starter. We don’t need that.
He turns 30 this year and people still out here with the oh he just needs the right situation
Truly is amazing what a great college career and putting up big volume numbers as a rookie can do for your hope quotient.
My confidence in #5 didn’t go down even though he routinely killed worms on screens. #11 still has much room for growth.
Bradford? He went to a team primed for a SB run and failed to make the playoffs. But hey, his completion % is good. That deal was pure Howie magic. The Eagles got a first round pick… And got rid of Bradford! Wentz could still not work out, but he has size, brains, and a great work ethic. The only other qb you mentioned with those 3 traits is Luck. I really think Wentz is going to go crazy this year with actual NFL receivers that can catch. Time will tell. I appreciate you thoughts despite disagreeing.
Minnesota was using offensive linemen off the street in the last 6 or 7 games, and without AP, they had zero running game. And let’s see what team wins anything with a bad completion % Their WR were Diggs and Theilan……hardly HOF material. The Eagles had to take the Bradford trade….it was too good to pass up. I wouldn’t have given up the 5 picks and in retrospect, would have drafted Prescott in the 3rd round (we had two 3rd round picks). Dallas would have drafted Wentz instead of Elliot, so the Cowgirls wouldn’t have had either of their all pro rookies. I just don’t think that Bradford got much of a chance and took much more heat than he deserved.
I had the same line of thinking to justify Bradford in Philly. After seeing him play, I’ve seen enough. I think at this point he is what he is, a guy that will never spend any meaningful time in the postseason. As for comparing the Eagles to cows… I think the Eagles offense is going to be better than theirs this year. Bold statement but that’s what I think.
whew, hope you’re right!! We need Elliott to get suspended!!
If he’s guilty definitely. But I hope he’s not guilty because that’s messed up. The girl sounds like she might be a wack job but who knows?
We were also using some pretty poor OLmen for Wentz’ roughest stretch. Their WRs weren’t great, but certainly better than ours. Our running game might have been better while Mathews was healthy.
In retrospect, it would have been much better to draft Brady in the 5th, but well, you don’t get to make those sleeper picks in retrospect 🙂
And we have yet to see how Prescott would do with a mediocre OL. Granted he may not have to for a while. Give Wentz (or even Bradford) that OL and those weapons and it would have been very interesting to see who would be better.
I did like Bradford… thought we could do pretty well with him (well until Lane Johnson got suspended). Thought he was getting into the upper half of QBs by the end of his year with us. But he has to un-learn years of short throws to avoid getting hit (last year did not help), and he may never do that. Much, MUCH happier with Wentz. And the fact that Bradford was able to recoup the biggest piece paid for Wentz in the first place (this year’s first rounder), makes it an absolute no-brainer.
points well taken. At least we had linemen who were on our team all year. And we only missed one. And don’t even compare our running game with Minnesota’s. They couldn’t get two yards a carry. We were pretty lucky that Bridgewater had that devastating injury….we couldn’t pass the deal up. This year will tell us a lot about Carson. WE’ve got a pretty good team. Really should get a playoff spot.
I agree that the others have shown more, but Wentz did some pretty amazing things for a rookie in his situation. It’s just too soon to tell.
Prescott impressive rookie but nowhere the same throwing to our wr’s .. ill take Wentz over tannehill all day, chip almost gave up everything for years to get Mariota so that’s an unfair and non reality comparison .. luck,
So its not like we had our passed up the chance to get aby of them except Prescott and mariotta ..
That is what Bradford had in Minn. And look how that turned out.
Minnesota was totally hammered with injuries last year. They lost 4 offensive linemen and were literally using guys off the street in the last 6 or 7 weeks. Not to mention AP going down the first game Bradford played. He beat Green Bay on his own….getting hammered on every play and putting the ball in the receivers pockets. I watched a lot of Minnesota games out of curiosity. They had Matt Asiata and Gerald McKinnon as their two running backs (who were horrible), and while Stefon Diggs and Theilan were decent receivers, they were hardly household names. I just don’t think that Bradford got a fair shake here. He was definitely not our problem, but he was criticized like it was all his fault. He threw for 3700+ yards in 13 1/2 games with Riley Cooper and Miles Austin as the starting wideouts. (he missed 2 1/2 games with a concussion, and we were leading the Miami game when he got hurt). I don’t think it was his fault that we couldn’t run the ball, couldn’t catch the ball, and couldn’t hold a team under 35 points in the last 7 games. Sometimes I think a black cloud follows him wherever he goes, between his 2 ACL injuries and team mates injuries. Come on Wentz….lots of weapons this year. Show us what you got!!
Those QBs also have more time in the NFL than Wentz. Who knows if Wentz turns into a top 5 guy but Bradord has already proven he isnt that good
Luck is Luck, but we’ll see how Mariota continues to grow from the pocket as his career advances. No thanks on Winston. Prescott is a game manager who had more INTs dropped last year than Wentz had passes dropped.
I think both Winston and Mariota will be top 15 qbs this year and Winston maybe a top 10. He has a better supporting cast and he’s got intangibles in addition to talent. Remember how excited we got about Mykal Franco and Domenick Brown. Not saying Wentz will turn out like those guys but we are quick to crown a guy a little too quickly.
You’re concerned with a rookie QB that had arguably the worst WR’s corps in the nfl? Do you really think Prescott would have had better success with those WR’s(and that OL)? Let’s back track for a second — if you were on any site last March screaming to draft Prescott, I’ll give you credit. But if not — you can’t do “should have drafted (insert name) because look at his success”.
….
When I talk to people – I tell them I think Wentz > 5. People say I’m crazy(and I might be) but he had a pretty solid year and he’s already put up some stats in his rookie year that 5 took years to put up. FWIW – a ‘solid’ QB is better than any other QB that’s been trotted this way in a long time. Solid QB’s do win SB’s. HR/Douglas and to some extent, HC all seem to be pretty focused on a ‘team’ build. Wentz should be the least of your concerns(for now).
Maybe Smith is trying to provoke an early cut? He’s not going to be any higher than DE5 on the depth chart. He’s not going to get snaps over Graham, Long, Barnett, and thief boy Curry. So what’s the benefit of keeping him as DE5 and inactive all year? You’d have to think he’s angling to get picked up by somebody that’ll let him get some regular work.
If that’s his mindset I don’t want him. There are other positions that are crowded. Look at WR. Nelson could lay down and quit, OR try and fight for a spot. Seems like he’s only hurting himself but what do I know.
What’s the benefit? He gets paid. No matter what job he gets after football or when he starts doing it, none of them are gonna pay what he’s getting now. If that’s his idea, it’s a really shitty idea.
If he thinks he’s gonna get cut at the start of camp when he has that bonus due, then it’s understandable that he would like a chance to go learn a playbook now.
Probably not the best idea in the world, but I at least get it.
Ugh. I forgot the WASTEAM signed Pryor. Good luck out there, Mills.