Reflecting on the Draft
Posted: May 15th, 2017 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 221 Comments »
What grade would I give the Eagles draft?
I wouldn’t. I don’t like draft grades. I prefer to study what a team did and try to understand what they were trying to accomplish. Grades are fun for the casual fan, but drafting isn’t just about selecting 7 players. Teams are shaping the future of their franchise. They are looking for the right people as well as players. They are studying medical histories. They are studying body types. There is a lot that goes into paring down several thousand prospects to a draft board of 150 (sometimes less) names.
I hate taking a complex process like the draft and saying “I didn’t like the TE they took in the 3rd round so I’m giving them a B-“.
At the same time, it is completely fair to judge a draft class in a reasonable way. Whether fan or writer or analyst, we all have an opinion and will share it with anyone who will listen. With that in mind, I will talk about the Eagles draft.
Howie Roseman talks #EaglesDraft, the start of offseason workouts and much more: https://t.co/8OEG5kQFru pic.twitter.com/TJQilZYc2i
— Philadelphia Eagles (@Eagles) May 9, 2017
I liked the Eagles draft. I didn’t love it.
The big hang-up for me is taking RB Donnel Pumphrey and not getting a workhorse type of RB. Beyond that, I really like what the Eagles did.
As I’ve written about, this draft was all about the passing game. On offense, that meant getting weapons for Carson Wentz. On defense, that meant finding pass rushers and cover guys. The Eagles did a good job on both fronts.
Think about the offense. The Eagles had arguably the worst WR corps in the league last year. They added a big, fast WR in Mack Hollins who can get deep and deliver big plays. That was his specialty in college. They also added a WR with explosive speed. Shelton Gibson can fly by CBs. He also can catch short passes and turn them into big plays. I love the double-dip. Don’t get one WR and consider the problem solved. Go get multiple players.
When you have a weak spot like the Eagles did at WR in 2016, you don’t fix it with one guy. You want to spend multiple resources to upgrade the unit. Jeffery, Smith, Hollins and Gibson do that. WR is much better now than it was.
And Donnel Pumphrey does help the passing game. He can line up in the slot and get open on short, quick routes. If you have field stretchers on the outside, you need good underneath receivers to work with them. Darren Sproles is in his final year so Pumphrey can help that situation now and into the future. He also has big play ability as a runner.
The Eagles offense needed more big plays. Collins, Gibson and Pumphrey should help with that.
The Eagles have to play better pass defense in 2017. The organization wisely didn’t look at this just as a CB problem. As all defensive coaches tell you, pass rush and pass coverage work hand in hand. Gang Green got lit up a few times when the secondary wasn’t playing well. The Eagles got better up front and on the back end.
They started by adding an edge rusher in Derek Barnett. He has the skill set to fit in this scheme and should push for significant playing time as a rookie. Barnett is not a project in any sense of the word. He could push for a starting role. The final pick was DT Elijah Qualls. At 6-1, 313 he sounds like a run stuffer, but you watch him play and see his agility and ability to rush the passer. The Eagles got better off the edge and up the middle.
Just like the double-dip at WR, the Eagles added a pair of CBs. Sidney Jones was just too good to pass up at 43. He has Top 10 potential so using a mid-2nd round pick on him is smart. This isn’t a lottery ticket pick as the Eagles see it. They are confident he will fully recover. When the Eagles used a comp pick on Jack Ikeguwonu and his totally reconstructed knee several years back, that was a lottery ticket pick. Big talent, but major risk. And he never recovered. There is a huge difference in an Achilles injury and a major knee injury.
Rasul Douglas is a player I thought Jim Schwartz would love back when I was watching him at Senior Bowl practices. Douglas is a tall, long corner with great ball skills. He is very confident and very aggressive. I had him rated lower than the 3rd round, but that’s because I’m going off generic draft info and not specific Eagles info. Douglas ran 4.59 at the Combine. Ran 4.60 at his Pro Day. That’s who he is. That makes him a 4th or 5th round pick to many teams. The Eagles were comfortable with the pedestrian speed because of the other things that he did so well.
I wrote somewhere after the draft that if things work out, Jones and Douglas could be like a Troy Vincent-Bobby Taylor pairing. Jones is the athletic corner who can smother receivers like Vincent. Douglas is the big corner who might need some Safety help at times, but who can use his size to take on bigger receivers and really go after them like Taylor.
Not only did the Eagles add a good pair of CBs, but they work well together based on their skills and how they will fit in the scheme.
I’m still working on a long post about Pumphrey. I will tell you this, he’s grown on me a lot. He is small, but doesn’t play small. Lorenzo Booker played small. Pumphrey is a tough, aggressive runner. He’s not afraid of anyone or anything. That attitude means a lot when you’re 5-9, 180. Think about this for a second…my least favorite Eagles draft pick just set the record for most rushing yards in a career. He followed that up by playing well at the Senior Bowl and then having a good Combine. If that’s the guy you’re questioning, I would say the team did a pretty good job.
I just wrote about Nate Gerry yesterday. The Eagles think he can become a solid WLB. Does that mean he’ll be a starter in 4 years? Don’t count on that, but let’s see what happens. The Eagles spent a late pick on a small LB back in 1998. His name was Ike Reese. He became a backup LB and leader of the STs. Turned out to be a great pick even though he only started a few games. If Gerry could become another Ike Reese type player, that would be a terrific pick. Not every guy has to become a starter to be good value. If Gerry becomes more than that, that’s even better.
Time will tell if this draft class is an A or B or whatever.
For now, I feel pretty good about this group of players and the job that Howie Roseman, Joe Douglas, Andy Weidl and the scouts did.
_
“The big hang-up for me is taking RB Donnel Pumphrey and not getting a workhorse type of RB. Beyond that, i really like what the Eagles did.” So – you’d grade them a B+?
With the potential to develop a solid A- if Jones returns and plays well this year.
I was just kidding because he said he doesn’t like giving grades…
Me too
I don’t like the running back they took in the 4th round: B-
What we can’t have again is the Danny Watkins or Marcus Smith drafts. Got next to nothing in the whole draft. Cost Andy Reid and Chip Kelly their jobs. Set the franchise back years. This looks like a smart draft–no overreaches or projects. Everyone played well in college. One concern: Pumphrey is a great player, but he barely hits 170 pounds, and not a big frame. Wonder how long he’ll last.
Marcus Smith was selected in a draft that Roseman ran, not Kelly. It was the main reason Kelly demanded more power and Lurie gave it to him the next year.
The dynamic that year was a bit more complex than that.
I think it is well accepted that Roseman had final say in the 2014 draft just like he did in 2013.
Kelly was very involved of course, but most of the stories we heard was Roseman keeping Kelly in check during the draft process and making the calls.
This dynamic led Kelly to petition Lurie to give him the power Roseman had and to move him out of the way.
Blame can be shared between them, but I certainly disagree with the OP that the Smith pick cost Kelly his job. Kelly was fired mainly for losing the room, lack of accountability and roster destruction as a HC and person in charge in 2015.
My understanding is that while Roseman had final say, it was Chip’s draft board they were working from. So one of the reasons that Smith was the pick was because Chip had removed so many guys from the draft board because they didn’t fit his measurables that there weren’t really many guys left on it
More or less yes.
I remember we traded back once, I wonder if Howie was making a big effort to try and trade back again but couldn’t find a partner. Would be very curious if he was content with Smith at 26.
And there was some garbage flying around about how Smith wouldn’t get past Washington at 30…………..I’d love to have seen them make that pick.
He probably wouldn’t have lasted much longer. Pass rush players were being terribly overdrafted, and Smith was the last one who at least had the athletic potential to be good down the road, with the Eagles having a massive need at that position (or so we thought before Graham had a resurgence).
The stories all basically said that Kelly wanted to simply draft Matthews with that pick, but Roseman saw the opportunity to get Matthews in the second round (which he did but required a tradeup), and get another highish-ly ranked player at that pick. I think they were all scrambling somewhat because their main six targets went right before their pick. In retrospect, probably best to have drafted Matthews (though we’d probably be declining the 5th-year option right about now).
For all the stuff about Roseman not drafting well, the drafts he’s had control over were somewhat decent. The Smith pick is glaringly bad, and the 2014 draft was pretty lackluster overall, but the bad Roseman/Kelly mix is stamped all over that (plus having the first round plan fell apart). The rest have been at least decent. The Danny Watkins draft though… ugh. I’m guessing that was the main reason Roseman got the job in the first place.
Oh Kelly always hated Smith because Roseman was the one who really wanted him. And yes Kelly was fired because of a whole littany of other reasons than the 2014 class.
To compare it to the old chef/shopper analogy:
Kelly had to have Anchovies paste, a certain brand, and wanted to pay three times the market rate. Roseman thought it was an overly specific way to make a souffle but he’s the shopper so it’s his job to make it work. The times he bought right ingredient but wrong brand (Smith, Watkins) Chip got pissy. And when he had to settle for ingredients he didn’t value half as much as Chip (JMatt, Huff, Hart) that was awkward for both of them too.
The whole setup was a mess. They weren’t on the same page. Both deserve blame. Roseman at least knows how to build a roster.
The whole setup was a mess is true and Roseman at least knows how to build a roster is also true.
Whether Roseman can build a winning roster is the real question and he has definitely had final say again since Kelly was fired.
I thought Kelly was very toxic for this organization, but am still not on board with Lurie simply handing the keys back to Roseman as if Kelly was the only problem. I fear Lurie again is fooling himself and us.
“We’ll see” seems to be a phrase we have to use a lot with this organization, but unfortunately that is true with this situation as well.
Fair, but hiring some hot shot GM candidate would have provided no less “We’ll see” than Howie and Co.
Agreed. I would advocate bringing in someone at the executive level, President, Football Operations for example, in the mold of a Ron Wolf or Bill Polian.
They would be responsible for hiring the GM, the HC and implementing strategically sound and well aligned processes to turn the Eagles into a football powerhouse. Lurie would oversee as usual, but give this person full authority for football operations.
That is my dream anyway. I’m not sure Lurie would want to or is capable of hiring that right person, but I’m skeptical Roseman is that person. We may have winning seasons and some playoff success with Roseman, but I do not see SB titles or a consistency of excellence coming from this current organizational setup.
Almost the whole draft that year was bad. Little to build the roster with. Team goes backward. Coach gets blame.
Peterson is going to get credit for this draft in a year or two, even if he had little to do with it.
That’s Roseman’s current role.
And if you want someone else for that job you can’t really do that. Those guys are pretty much all experienced GMs.
Huh? You fire Roseman and bring the other guy in. How is that a hard or impossible task?
I’d take a Ron Wolf or Bill Polian type over Roseman every day of the week.
You don’t give that job to a random scout you give that job to a GM. Any retread GMs you’re dying to replace Howie with?
But Lurie did bring Douglas in, which, at least on the surface, seems to be helping. I think this draft will bring much better, and immediate, production then, say, the Watkins or Smith drafts…
whoa whoa whoa we were able to bring in Curtis Marsh and Jaiqwuan Jarrett in those drafts!
No seriously though the 2014 draft wasn’t all bad. JMatt and Baue Allen turned out to be good picks. Beau a damn good one even. Watkins and Hart are still hanging around. Sure looking back this draft wasn’t great but when compared to every draft around the league it was average.
I want more than guys hanging around. JMatt required we move up and sacrifice picks to get him. That hurt, too. If we are going to the big game–we need at least two back-to-back really good drafts.
I agree completely.
Just defending a very average to slightly below average draft…for no reason in particular i guess lol.
The Watkins draft was just historically bad and didn’t think grouping the Marcus Smith draft with it was fair.
Yes…the Watkins draft landed us only 1 player out of 11 picks. That is absolutely historically bad. If AR was responsible for that he deserved to be fired. If it was Howie, then he should have been fired. That’s what would happen with most any other team.
Well they fired Big Red.
Measured take, Tommy.
I think the draft is only half the equation however. The other half the Eagles have struggled with mightily in recent years is talent development.
Talent acquisition via draft, FA, trades etc. is the front end and the Eagles have mixed results there, but have been largely league average from what studies/reports I’ve seen. That is not great, but it is not terrible either.
Where they have been more on the terrible side is talent development. We heard a lot of similar positives about Agholor, Huff, Smith, Rowe, Shepherd, Wolff etc. and none of them have panned out here. They all have talent and strengths as players, but for whatever reason the Eagles have not been able to tap into it effectively.
So a critical component of evaluating this draft (and Pederson and his staff) will be how effectively the Eagles can turn these talents into consistently productive performers on the field. I’m more confident that Joe Douglas will help Roseman make better picks and evaluate talent to acquire, but I’m pretty skeptical about Pederson and his staff’s ability to develop the talent they are given and find ways to utilize them effectively.
Great points. Chip is crumbled though, and that’s really the most likely culprit for the lack of talent development in my opinion. we’ll have to see going forward – that of course doesn’t say anything whatsoever about Doug and his staff. And it’s really not on Howie or Joe Douglass to develop the talent.
Should be interesting to watch.
Thanks. Agree it is still in process, but some of the evidence is already in.
Both aspects work together and have to be aligned: Howie/Joe have to evaluate talent and acquire the best options they can and Pederson and his staff need to figure out how to best develop and utilize those talents.
Howie/Joe need to understand what skill sets the talent they acquire need to fit into Pederson’s schemes effectively and that fit a profile that maximize the chances the talent can be developed and utilized effectively.
The Pumphrey pick could be an interesting test case for this concept.
Agreed
As much as I hated Schwartz for getting rid of Rowe, his history is excellent as a defensive coordinator. Are you saying Schwartz cannot develop talent? Based on what? I have full confidence Schwartz can develop players.
Pederson is a new coach with less than a season and you seem to be judging him based on his of lack of success developing players like Huff, Ags, and Smith. Did you ever consider that maybe, just maybe those guys are just not that good.
Here are some early offensive success stories: Wentz, Seumalo, Smallwood, and Vaitai. Why can you not give Pederson credit for developing them?
I think it is still an open question here. Track record is important, but each situation is team/organization specific imo and can present unique challenges.
I like Schwartz as DC, but do not love him. His scheme imo has flaws – I’d like him to be more aggressive in attacking the QB, innovative in his coverage schemes and less dependent on the wide 9 which I think most offenses figured out long ago.
I do not think the 4 offensive players you name are fully developed yet. Pederson’s job and legacy here largely depend on Wentz, but Carson struggled more as the season went on and the other three had limited exposure.
Wentz will hopefully take a big jump this season and the other three get a bigger role, but no they are not evidence of Pederson’s talent development acumen yet imo.
“wide 9 which I think most offenses figured out long ago.”
You know EVERY defense in the NFL uses the wide 9 as part of their nickle defense? Remember Schwartz do not use it on base downs all the time like Jim Washburn did here.
Totally agree. We have been bringing in a ton of talented players with a lot of potential, and you see flashes of that talent, but most of them never take the next step, or even regress. It’s been happening for years now and it’s the most disheartening part of being and Eagles fan lately. Feels like it’s been ages since Howard Mudd made one of the best O-lines in the league out of JP, some journeymen, a rookie, and duct tape. Or surprise us that our second round picks turned into stars in back to years with Desean Jackson and Shady. And the Reid era was already in deep decline in both those situations. So far Fletcher Cox is the only legitimate star we’ve gotten in how many years?
When I remember that there are 31 other teams with varying needs, schemes, draft picks, coaches and scouts- it brings what we were able to accomplish back into a clearer picture. Was the draft perfect? We can’t say, and we really don’t know. As Tommy stated, maybe we liked a prospect better “overall”- but that doesn’t mean that they fit the overall picture of what they are trying to do with this team.
Revisionist history is always 100% accurate- but we don’t live in a vacuum and that’s not reasonable.
Our “worst projections” are all based off an injury to a 20 year old CB, a productive college safety making the transition to WLB, and a smallish yet extremely productive RB who will double as a slot receiver.
A reasonable worst case projection is:
– Barnett is more Brian Robison than Brian Orakpo.
– Jones never really recovers. The lost year of development, a couple lost steps and he’s an underwhelming starter for a year or two and then gets forced down/off the depth chart
– They can’t fix Douglas’s technique to the point where he overcomes his physical limitations. He gets forced into the fire too early this year and broken mentally
– Hollins has Hank Baskets career. That’s ok in a vacuum but kind of shitty for a high 4th round pick
– Pumphrey is Lance Dunbar… when healthy
– Gibson never develops the rest of his game. He kicks around the league for a few years as a slightly better version of Bryce Treggs
– Gerry is a poor mans Keenan Clayton
– Qualls gets caught in a numbers game at some point this season and gets claimed off waivers
I’m more bullish than on the class than this, but it’s certainly within the realm of reasonable outcomes.
Or the global economy collapses in 6 months in a sequence driven by high frequency trading compounding a hacker’s intention to disrupt markets. The NFL never plays another game, society reverts to feudal norms. We all die of dysentery.
I believe dysentery will be known as #DuckBias in our impeding apocalyptic future
So, our “runs” will keep up with the Chip Kelly rapid fire spread offense?
That turned into Oregon Trail super fast.
Threads like this are as good a reason as any to make this site and comments a daily read. I appreciate what you folks bring for my personal amusement 😉
No need to make it that complicated, how about this: The buffon accidentally sits on the nuke button and we all die.
If we are talking worst case, it would happen in 8 months with the Eagles in the driver’s seat in the playoffs.
Great post.
As long as Koy can still be holder I’ll be happy.
Agreed- but you just mentioned the absolute worst case scenarios for each prospect. Maybe not “worst case” but pretty damn close.
Every college player is a projection at the next level- historically speaking. We would guess that Barnett will be more like Orakpo rather than Robinson.
Quincy Wilson may become Curtis Marsh- or he may become Bryon Maxwell, we don’t know. Jones has as good as chance as any person does to come back from his injury.
Somewhere between my scenario and your scenario is the likely outcome; as stated above, of course there are going to be other players we wished that they had selected. They won’t get everyone right, and that’s how it goes. This is the first year that Howie and Joe have worked together, there will be issues to correct and wrinkles to iron out.
But for a start, I’m content.
Derrick Morgan
Kyle Fuller without the flashes
Uhh don’t know
Derrick Morgan is a complete piece of trash. He, and his family, were content to take endless tax dollars being educated in a PA public school (Coatesville), but spurned Penn State’s offer and went to GA Tech. I think he owes us a refund for 13 years of school.
that is an oddly specific and very angry take.
Thank you. Penn State should have right of first refusal over any player in the state and the Big 5 +Drexel should have the same for any basketball player in the Greater Philadelphia Area.
the Hank Baskett comment just made me gag a little.
He probably had an average career for a 4th round WR. Maybe even above average.
No. He was certifiably garbage. His career year was 460 yards & 2 TDs.
Average draft pick=garbage
I can’t remember…did Baskett have good speed like Hollins?
Yep. 4.49
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=14473&draftyear=2006&genpos=WR
Oh, hey…thanks for taking the time to answer my question!
ouch….;)
I mean, in the real world, if 3 of these picks are meaningful contributors for the next 4 years this draft was knocked out of the park, right? That would be a far better than average draft wouldn’t it?
Yes- if we can bat 50% in the draft and have 1-2 UDFA’s make the team, it’s a successful year. I’d settle for no UDFA’s making the team with the trade off being all of our draft picks become future HOF players for us.
My draft re-do:
14. TE OJ Howard Alabama
43. CB Sidney Jones Washington
99. CB Rasul Douglas West Virginia
118. RB Joe Williams Utah
129. WR Ryan Switzer North Carolina
166. WR Shelton Gibson West Virginia
184. DT Caleb Brantley Florida
214. CB Jalen Myrick Minnesota
The fact that I agree with the Eagles on three of their picks is encouraging. That’s a lot of times for me to think they took the best guy available. I think Barnett was the third best player available, so not bad by any means. The flaw in my draft is that there’s no DE, but you can’t address everything. I’d count on Long and Curry to hold down the fort this year, and search next year for a long term answer.
Hope is a poor strategy
Ok….
TE with pick #14 with the three we already have on the team along with all the other defensive and offensive needs is also a poor strategy!
Agreed. He didn’t fit what we do or what Wentz seems to excel at or prefer. We are going to be an outside vertical passing team, with option routes in the middle and quick backs coming out of the backfield. And of course, Wentz will have the threat to run.
Howard can get vertical and can take it to the house. If that doesn’t fit any offense then the coach is as dumb as Lane Kiffin.
The Eagles don’t seem to think he was worth the investment. Especially with Ertz and an upcoming Burton.
Ertz can be productive, that’s pretty much it. Burton is just flashes.
The Doug Pederson/Andy Reid offense has never really been about the 2 feature TE set. There’s a reason that not many NFL teams employ something similar to New England- not many can.
Wentz hasn’t developed the consistency and accuracy to make contested throws over the middle- at this stage of the game, he errs better on outside options and deeper routes. He’s okay at dump offs, but with the money already invested in Ertz (plus Jeffrey) -Howard doesn’t fit.
I’m content with Burton as a long term TE3 / Special teamer. I like him.
I would prefer to see what Ertz and Wentz can do together in year 2 of the same coach and offense.
That’s certainly one way to look at it, but……
-Celek is done after this year and Howard appears to have the size and willingness to block well enough
-Ertz’s AAV on his contract is an annoyance when factored vs. his production, so we’re left feeling that we’re not good enough at TE
– I’d like our ability to run the ball better AND pass out of more creative formation if we were in “12” with two TEs who can catch. I’m tired of seeing us in “11” so often.
Seems like that’s the strategy for our first 3 picks this year though.
How so?
Yeah, I’m with Sb2.. don’t follow.
Barnett is a slow plodder of a DE with average lateral movement.
Jones is a feather, not the best athlete, and has to recover from an achilles which may or may not rob some athleticism.
Douglas has average speed and is an one year wonder.
That pretty much screams hope and a bit more than usual for a draft.
In my darker moods I am afraid you are right.
Barnett is in the 88th percentile in 3 cone which measures lateral movement, so he is way more than just average
Eric Rowe was also in that range but he still had stiff hips. Numbers don’t match up to tape all the time.
Watching barnett bend it does add up
Flexibility is not the same as lateral movement.
Huh? Was Walter Payton draft eligible again? Douglas and Jones both represent upside potential, Barnett is about a safe a pick as possible. If you’re against all 3 of them, you are definitely a glass is half empty kind of guy.
https://dirtystall.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/capture.jpg
Hope is a greater or lesser part of all draft picks, and greater than most realize.
Of course it is. We just happened to take guys with a lower chance of succeeding.
From an Eagle’s-centric point of view: I would say that you’re crazy to want OJ Howard over Barnett.
1. College production
2. Health
3. Ability of coaches to get production out of said player
It’s an open and shut case.
If you’re basing it on production, then Donnel Pumphrey will be the greatest RB ever and Timmy Chang would have been the greatest NFL QB ever. Obviously that’s a flawed way to evaluate players. Barnett’s shortcomings as a player (lack of variety in hand moves, not much physicality vs OTs) are apparent with the eye test. Don’t get me wrong. I like Barnett. But if I was to ask you specifically what are the flaws in Howard’s game (blocking? Route-running? Catching?), I can’t really think of any. He’s damn great at all of those things.
I think health is more random than most fans do. Unless the guy had three consecutive leg injuries, I’m not that worried.
The reason Howard’s stats weren’t that great was Alabama had terrible QBs (notice how receivers didn’t accumulate eye-popping stats) and they’re always a run-first team, with those two things being related. With Wentz at the helm, Pederson would have had no excuse to not get production out of Howard. The guy is the best TE prospect I can remember since Gronk. When a guy has that much talent, you make the team accommodate him. Think of Wentz having Jeffery and Howard at his disposal all day, and the disappointing Matthews and Ertz duo as just secondary targets. I always say go for the home run pick. Barnett can be a nice player but I don’t see the same elite level traits in him I did in Howard.
I’ll second that, and say again what I’ve said before. I just don’t get the love for Howard. He has ability, but _very_ little production. I can’t think of a player who was given more of a break based on projection in recent years. He’s the Marcus Smith of tight ends. Sure, the guy has the measurables. And some (emphasis on “some”) good tape. But his supposedly unimaginable ability has no consistent tape to back it up. It’s 80% projection.
And I get that projection is part of it, versus pure production. You have to think about how these guys will project to the NFL, where the game is different. It’s why (as you say below) Pumphrey’s production has to be taken with a grain of salt.
But with that said, it’s SO much projection with Howard that I just don’t get the love. It’s like someone like Mahomes, or any other QB who went higher than expected based on projection in recent years: you simply don’t know. I think that risk is worth taking at certain positions, but TE certainly isn’t one of them, not with the #14 pick in the draft. So, again, I just don’t get the unbridled love for Howard, the insistence that he’s a “sure thing”. He well could be an excellent player in the NFL, and he has every chance to succeed in that offense in Tampa. But he’s just not, to me, so much a “sure thing” that you absolutely HAVE to take him over other players at positions of actual need when you’re doing pretty well at TE.
The only thing that transfers over at the next level is athleticism, traits and intangibles. Howard was rated very high on both of them.
Lets use Jordan Matthews as the counterpoint since he is the complete opposite of OJ Howard in terms of production. Matthews was fed the ball and the offense was built around him. He had consistent screen passes and blocking that allowed him to rack up yards. Matthews has not shown any rare and desirable traits at the college level to make anyone but Chip Kelly salivate over him. It was very clear that Matthews had huge flaws that got combed over because he put up the numbers. As you can see 95% of his game and traits are very below average to average at the next level. Production is easily overrated.
a redraft after seeing how a draft went?
Interesting thought experiment. I’d poo poo Brantley period due to off the field issues. Myrick was a really “eh” player at Minnesota.
Howard vs. Barnett vs. Allen is going to be a fun conversation for a while. I’m still personally devastated that the Titans took my guy Corey Davis at 5.
What if we already have our “Big Back” on the roster in Wentz? Think about it- the kid is 6’5″, going on 240lbs, and if we need a yard- who better than a guy that can athletically handle a yard or two?
We saw this in the Giants game last year (1st one) that they wanted to get Wentz on the outside with the option/keeper.
Wentz (from NFL.com) had 46 rushing attempts. Averaged 3.3 yards per attempt. 8 of his attempts came between the 19-1 yard line of the opponents, and produced 2 touch downs and 3 first downs.
Here are the stats– http://www.nfl.com/player/carsonwentz/2555259/situationalstats
In other words- are we selling short the possibility that the man directly responsible for running the offense on the field will also be the one to bear the most responsibility when the team needs it most (1st downs) until we have that “feature back” on the roster?
Hard to believe that an organization who witnessed its best players in the past half century -Randall and Donovan -squander some of their best years with injury would willing subject the guy they hope will break all their records to a whole lot of running between the tackles.
And before you say “QBs get injured even more in the pocket!” -it’s not about injury statistics, teams simple want to protect their keystone players as much as possible.
Ironically- both of their most devastating injuries occurred in the pocket.
Not going to LOL this one………. going to cry instead.
How’d McNabb get the sports hernia? I kind of remember it was a sideline scramble but I’m probably wrong.
“Most devastating” injuries- think he got the hernia against Tennessee, then tore it completely when Dallas returned a TD against us. That’s when he went on IR for the year.
But I get what you are saying; I don’t love the idea of Wentz being a prominent part of the running game, but that’s also part of his DNA- he creates with his feet, and with that we have to take the good and the bad.
I mean, if we wanted a stationary QB, we could have kept Bradford.
I don’t really have an opinion either way. I’m all for using whatever skills a player has to win.
I just don’t see the Eagles using Wentz running as a featured part of the offense- especially since QB injury has featured so prominently in recent franchise history.
The comparison (which we saw a lot after last year’s draft) would be to Rothlisberger. He would take off sometimes, they’d do a designed run once in a while, run a sneak on third and one maybe.
I don’t think Wentz will be the running QB in the McNabb/Vick mold- more like Rodgers in the ability to escape pressure and take what is available to him on the field.
Wasn’t that when he threw an interception and then horse-collared Roy Williams…?
That rings a bell.
I think he got cheap shotted by a Falcon that should have been flagged and wasn’t. Like when he got belly flopped by a Panther and nothing was called.
I’ll never forget that panther play, NFCC game, super late hit towards end of first half,Mcnabb goes out, we lose a low scoring game with our defense possibly in as prime a place as it ever was. I think we would have won the SB that year.
But their injuries occurred in the pocket.
ha!
It works pretty well for the Panthers, but Wentz is not Cam. Heck he ain’t even Luck. Not so sure I want him exposed with regularity.
Short yardage backs haven’t always been big guys. Warrick Dunn always seemed to get the job done in short yardage when guys they brought in to do that job failed (ie. T.J Duckett…who ended up here didn’t he?)
Luck.
4.67 40.
36″ Vert
124″ Broad
6.8sec 3 cone
6’4″
234lb
32 5/8″ Arm Length
10″ Hands
Wentz.
4.74 40.
30 1/2″ Vert
118″ Broad
6.86sec 3 cone
6’5″
237lb
33 1/4 Arm Length
10″ Hands
Agreed that Wentz isn’t Cam, and he’s a touch slower than Luck (with a bit more limited athletic ability).
Dunn is a great comparison to Sproles in the short yardage category; Sproles ranks near the top in NFL history in picking up less than 2 yards for a first down/touch down percentage wise. Saw a graph on it last week, comparing RB size on BleedingGreenNation.
Overall, I think we are competitive with our RB’s, but we aren’t complete. Wentz, if it comes down to it- can handle short yardage situations if need be; Brady is one of the best at getting a yard when it really matters, and Brees has the best goal line leap I’ve ever witnessed for a short white QB.
When needed a QB has always been a great weapon to dive forward for short yardage. We have had some guys bad at it in the past (Vick/Foles..even McNabb really), but Wentz does seem capable. I do think using 5-10 QB sneaks a year could work well.
Cam had like what 3 concussions already? It’s not working out “pretty well” for them.
And an absolute putrid season last year.
I was trying not to completely shit on his idea…while making a strong point. So I used a strong point backed by soft verbage ;D
Pretty bad 2016 and trending downward into a death spiral of injury and poor decision making. And who knows what his arm is going to be like after the surgery.
Dunn had Alstott
We have Honey Beau Beau
Dunn had Alstott (that SOB) in TB, not Atl, right?
No actually that “big back” is an UDFA named Jerod Evans the former Virginia Tech QB. The kid is big and strong and very capable runner. Check out his videos …
He’s gone.
http://phi.247sports.com/Bolt/Eagles-waive-QB-Jerod-Evans-sign-T-Victor-Salako-52758190
Thanks. Just about. Needs to work out an injury settlement.
I’m hoping they bring him back as a developmental type; must be something they like if that’s the possibility. Kid has some raw tools, might be worth the look in a year.
That’s pretty horrible. Mike Vick 7.0 YPC. Donnie 5.6. Aaron Rodgers 5.5 YPC. Tom Brady 4.0 YPC.
First year, brother. Guaranteed Brady has gone up as he’s taken less sacks. Donnie, Aaron, and Vick were all known for their ability to create with their legs. Aaron had the athleticism, but also the fortune of sitting and learning for 3 years while Farve Farve’d the league.
It’s not beautiful, but it’ll get better as he learns the game, when to run and how to run.
Vick’s best ypc was his first year… 9.3. Damn.
Btw I misread Brady’s stats, he actually average 1.8 YPC for his career, Wentz is dominating him in that category. So there’s that. 🙂
CHAMPIONSHIP
Improved WR play could result in more empty space in that 5-10 yd range that Wentz could exploit with his legs…
Agreed- you see that a lot with Rodgers because of the vertical element to their offense.
Wentz doesn’t have his quick release, but they are similar in that they like to push the ball down the field. With receivers that can actually catch the ball, we may have a shot.
Where are you getting that he likes to push the ball? Wentz was one of the shortest ballers in the league last year.
Let me guess…… Air yards?
I mean, yeah, that’s a stat that shows it for one.
That’s a one year stat operating on a woeful offense with very limited skill players. Give it time.
If you watch what they did at NDSU and the first few games of this season, they wanted to try and push the ball with the occasional shot to keep the defense honest. When teams realized our WR’s sucked, we started with the much shorter passing game.
In other words, don’t take the one year in an NFL offense as an indication of what Wentz will do when operating with the proper weapons around him.
I don’t, it’s just the first data point in hopefully a long and successful year. But if he has low air yards this year, the next… what do they say, three makes a trend?
Yes- three makes a trend. In college, they ran a pro style offense but he wasn’t afraid to take shots down the field to outside receivers and intermediate routes to his slot/TE guys.
We’ll see- I doubt that they loaded up on guys that are big and fast so he can continually try to find RB’s out of the backfield on a more than regular basis.
One thing that stood out to me was how slow Wentz ran. I had been expecting a lot more burst.
He improved as the season went on. I started out very disappointed like you but moderated later on
I admire the line of thinking, but frequent running of the QB is bad football.
For the record- so do I, and I don’t think that Wentz should be our primary big RB. But, I think he can and will be an asset to help keep the defense honest during the year with the threat of his running ability.
Great perspective.
Lot of easy to root for guys in this draft class. Basically all of them have compelling stories and UDFAs like Walker all provide interesting stories to follow. Hope they make the most of their opportunities.
Pumphrey makes sense if you’re looking to the 2018 season. We’re lacking at RB right now but by next year’s draft if we pick up an all-purpose back, Pumphrey then becomes a unique weapon as a scat back/slot receiver hybrid.
You can run Pumphrey as much as you want to without worrying about his weight. If he gets hurt, then he’s hurt and he doesn’t play. But until he’s hurt he’s just as capable of playing as someone who is 220 pounds, it’s just the situations you’d use them in that change
This is true. How injury prone you are has little to nothing to do with how big or small you are. Two great examples are already on the roster in Mathews and Sproles.
I agree but I’d go further and say I’d be fine with them using Pumphrey in short yardage situations. Shady wasn’t much of a pile pusher, but he managed to go over the line.
My understanding is the problem with small backs is mostly they can’t block, not that they’re going to get hurt.
The most compelling story in this Eagles draft in my opinion is the influence of Joe Douglas and the apparent change in philosophy to favor game tape over measurables. And while the birds may not have scored players whose freakish hand size numbers almost guarantee HoF production, they picked up a bunch of guys who proved their worth on the field.
There was nothing out of the box by Douglas. Picks were safe picks with attempts to fill holes. If he wasn’t here, would have HR went in a different direction with pick 1? The world will never know.
Mostly true. Not sure that Jones, Pumphrey, or Gerry could be called safe picks. But they certainly went with production.
I’ll take ‘mostly true’ because I’m mostly wrong :)…and the whole “plan” going into the draft…rumored were draft targets of 2 cb’s, 2 wr’s, rb, DT, edge rusher. Douglas held true to the plan(as much as we know) and addressed need. He did a fine job. I just can’t find the ‘compelling story’. There’s no wizard behind a curtain. He did what he was supposed to do – but maybe we’re not use to that happening…lol
Chip Kelly threw the word “culture” out more than once, but never came close to molding one here. I think Joe Douglas may have an eye for guys who want to make their mark, and who have displayed skill sets equal to the task. Why can a franchise like NE take seemingly anybody, other team’s castoffs, unremarkable players from Troy or Samford, and continue to win? Something happens in the locker room, in the film room, on the practice field that turns aspirations into expectations, and it self-inflates. Douglas has said he values toughness, and I haven’t heard anybody in the NFL ever discount it, but some franchises seem to overthink and go in with competing priorities. The recently fired pseudo-GM from Washington Scot McCloughan was jeered by the experts for taking a guard in the first round, but that guy has missed very few games and is a force on their OL. Buddy Ryan was a better culture builder than HC. He built a defense that worshipped him, but his offense was almost an afterthought. Barnett, Jones, Douglas all can be pivotal in setting a tone that makes winning an expectation. Pumphrey might be an entertaining RB, but I love the guy’s confidence. He looks to me to be mentally tough, which is a trait that not all physically tough players possess. So I don’t see any secret weapons, but I am psyched to see what these kids can show.
GOAT QB and coach that’s how.
Tuck Rule, Adam Vinatieri, Spygate, Deflategate, extremely weak AFC East Division with the exception of the Jets for a few years, Atlanta Falcons biggest choke job in Superbowl History.
Vomit
Not disagreeing but that duo also beat plenty of good teams in the playoffs.
Spygate
Seahawk’s gift. Substitution rule vs Ravens.
They are no doubt great. But they completely deserve asterisks, and the question of how good they are is legit.
That’s the popular explanation, but I just think it goes deeper than that. I will try to explain by first taking issue with your high opinion of Brady. He’s a HOF QB without question, a great QB by any measure, but imo, he’s not even the best QB of his era, let alone ever. Imagine Brady as Green Bay’s QB or Pittsburgh’s QB. It is not hard to imagine that he might never get to a SB with either of those teams. Both Rodgers and Roethlisberger have bought more time with their feet and broken the will of the defender than Brady has ever had to. That isn’t a knock on TB, but I could easily imagine AR winning multiple titles in NE, and they may not have lost to the Giants either time. Similarly, big Ben would have more than a couple rings in NE I believe. This brings me to my previous point. The precision and textbook execution of the other 10 players on NE’s offense are not bequeathed by their QB. There is a standard established in the franchise and, as Ark87 stated it comes with winning. But here’s the thing: before they were winners they weren’t, and many teams that win it once disappear for long lapses. Bill Bellichick rightfully gets most of the credit for the NE culture, but he was very mediocre in Cleveland. Clearly he does not tolerate freelancers (Jamie Collins) even if they are good. I’m inclined to believe that there is an element of kismet in the package. A great QB, a great HC who will not brook mistakes or improvising on the field, and maybe just the right mix of players who reinforce the perfectionist ethic. That package in a league of widespread mediocrity might yield a dynasty. The mix of players is the reflection of each team’s F/O, and I think Douglas could be a positive presence in that regard.
I don’t know about that. When you have a franchise QB regardless of who it is, you try to cater to his strengths. Who’s to say that both teams build the same way as they did with Brady? I’m not sure who you think the best QB ever is. Brady has played in two eras and has been arguably the best in both of them. I hate the Patriots as much as anybody but respect is due for Brady.
Cleveland hasn’t done anything right in decades. I’m not sure why you hold that against him since that does not knock his ability as a coach. Pete Carroll flamed out with the Patriots but you don’t see the Seahawks complaining about it. Belichick is a defensive mastermind. He knows how to mask player’s weaknesses and try to maximize their strengths. He does not try to fit square pegs into round holes. His defenses have always been a well oiled machine that has spare parts ready just in case part of it breaks down.
I agree with all of that, I am just biased towards QB’s who can carry sub-elite teams to the title. Brady’s calling card has been to deliver when the pressure is on, and that is impressive to all fans of the game. But he has rarely, if ever been tasked with stealing a win from a superior opponent. And I don’t know that he’s ever had to win a shootout. Rodgers makes a run-0f-the-mill Packer team a contender every season, because he can own any DC (maybe not Bellichick) on any given day. Brady is unquestionably integral to the Patriot streak, but I still think that it is more of a reflection of the HC than the QB. But it isn’t a scheme or a system…the Patriots just seem to always be competent in every phase of the game, and consistently stingy on defense. As great as the QB and HC have been, there is the owner and F/O who are probably revered in Boston, but I couldn’t name anybody other than the long since departed Scot Pioli as a contributing factor in the Patriot streak of dominance. Players come and go, assistant coaches come and go, but the mental toughness, the discipline they have become trademarks.
I agree, Brady is not the Greatest Quarterback of All Time. He has the most wins and titles and accomplishments, but other players in his situation could have done the same or better.
Chip was more concerned with autonomous robots than running a winning football org. He thought if he could get the robots part down he would be a winner. Guys will only be robots for the hoodie.
They are building a football team. Hopefully one that wins. Joe and Howie seem to be a good compliment.
Sports Cultures generally revolve around 1 of 2 things: A personality cult, a singular alpha dog that everyone rallies around and a culture forms in his image (be it Buddy Ryan, Michael Jordan, Peyton Manning, etc.) or a strict system that places certain demands on a player. Either way the cultures are propped up on winning. Everyone not named Tom Brady hates the “Patriot way”, but players deal with it because they want to win. They can absorb problem individuals because it’s a system the squashes individuality, and any trend that isn’t the “Patriot Way” gets you kicked out for not buying in and no one will blink. And it wouldn’t work if the team didn’t consistently live up to tremendous expectations.
Chip was a system guy, but he didn’t realize he has to earn putting his system on a pedestal, you can’t just drop good players because they didn’t buy in. You lose a locker room that way.
Got off on a tangent, but long story short: Joe Douglas, Howie Roseman, Doug Pederson: they can try all day, but they aren’t establishing a damn thing culture-wise until they start winning games.
Interesting, you have the fascistic cults of personality teams or the militaristic fascist teams.
Sounds about right, now it makes sense why I was so repulsed by high school football. Stopped being fun, felt like I was joining a cult.
Ikegwuonu got 9 years for those armed robberies…dang…lol
lots of xboxes? Kid was crook from day one.
Got hooked on heroin due to pain meds and turned to armed robbery to feed his addiction. He and his brother got busted together
If you recall he was a thief before we drafted him. That was just a horrible pick all over. I am sure he tells a great woe is me, the-all-do.
I do- broke in (again) with his brother and stole a couple of Xbox’s.
I’m not saying he is a saint, but his life spiraled out of control and culminated in a long state prison sentence. Quite the fall from grace.
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/crime_and_courts/ikegwuonu-brothers-given-prison-terms-but-offered-encouragement/article_a2a15006-ce47-55cb-9d21-2dbcc4250345.html
Found this nugget over at BGN and wanted to share it.
A 30 minute vid of the Eagles Rookie Minicamp practice for those of you who can never digest enough Eagles like me.
Enjoy Fellas.
https://www.facebook.com/BleedingGreenNation/videos/10154867213273052/
Thanks.
If you watch Pumphrey play but do not tell people his size, people would love him. People including NFL people have a size bias.
If you watch him play and don’t realize he’s comically small, you’re blind.
My point is, if he was listed as 5-10 and 190, nobody would knock him the same way as his listed 5-8 and 176.
But he’s not even a legit 176. He played in the 160s
Size thresholds exists for a reason. Kelly took it too far the other way but they are important.
How many guys are really there listed weight?
Most skill guys are heavier than their combine weight.
Do you think he can get to a legit 180-185# by the start of the season or maybe at least by next season? Would this get him at least in the ballpark of being big enough?
Not this year (not a legit weight anyways). He was 169 at the Senior Bowl and that was 5 weeks after his bowl game. He probably does eventually end up at 180-185 but how much of his athleticism does that sap? He was only a 4.48 at the combine. He’s never going to be more than a gadget guy.
Thanks for the response, seems pretty reasonable. I still think he will be more than a gadget guy though, just not a player that will have more than 10 to 15 touches a game.
As a point of reference, I was 6’0/160 when I graduated college. Within two years I was 6’0/200 -and that’s all without professional training!
You didn’t spend 3 years in a college football Strength and Conditioning program.
Three years dialing Dominos doesn’t count?
They would
It’s May. All this realism is completely unwelcome. Pump it up! 😉
There are many people who have #sizebias.
“The League” did it best with the Sproles “Height Supremacist” episode.
What is a “workhorse” RB? 15 carries per game? Nobody runs more than that on a consistent basis. The WCO doesn’t need a workhorse, it needs a consistent WR corps and protection for its QB, with a couple of complementary backs. It’s been a struggle recovering from the Chip Kelly train wreck but we’re about a year away from that becoming a bad dream.
So, wait, the sky wasn’t falling?
https://twitter.com/BrandonGowton/status/864456839064432640
It was just the shade thrown by a large Eagle flying over head. The sky isn’t falling, we are taking flight!
Graham was getting destroyed by media first two years. Signed a middle of the road contract. I’m sure he is satisfied and working on maxing the third contract.
Frank Gore was an Eagle for longer than Graham was holding out
Excellent prespective.
Next time the team kicks McLane out of the press box, he gets a soda over the head first.
http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/news/article-1/Turning-Workouts-Into-Games-For-Big-Prizes/34b5e57a-4114-4357-9955-c3d32f40449a
This is a fun thing added by the FO.
That is great. Fun and motivating.
Yeah, ESP has always been a joke. Only reason he got to where he is is Garry Cobb connections, and well…
He sucks, but I have to think he’s a hard worker -just terrible at writing and sportsing.
Agreed, I don’t question or fault him for a lack of effort. But his strengths are ____ I got nothing… and he is really annoying most of the time.
http://m.philadelphiaeagles.com/news/article-1/Eagle-Eye-How-The-Draft-Picks-Fit-In/2d868e9c-a5c3-4120-b983-c22435d2a48b
Fran Duffy put all PE draft pick material in one place.
Watch them again.
Awesome, thanks for posting
REFLECT ON BEING A DICKHEADED LOSER.
you are a meatstick
Not sure if discussed before but here is what Timmy Jernigan cost us:
10(74) Ravens (From Eagles) Wormley, Chris DE 6’5″ 298 Michigan 5.8
11(75) Falcons (From Bills) Riley, Duke LB 6’0″ 232 LSU 5.5
12(76) Saints Anzalone, Alex LB 6’3″ 241 Florida 5.8
13(77) Panthers (From Cardinals) Hall, Daeshon DE 6’5″ 266 Texas A&M 5.7
14(78) Ravens Williams, Tim OLB 6’3″ 244 Alabama 6.0
15(79) Jets (From Vikings) Stewart, ArDarius WR 5’11” 204 Alabama 5.7
16(80) Colts Basham, Tarell DE 6’4″ 269 Ohio 5.6
17(81) Redskins Moreau, Fabian CB 6’0″ 206 UCLA 5.7
18(82) Broncos Henderson, Carlos WR 5’11” 199 Louisiana Tech 5.5
19(83) Patriots (From Titans) Rivers, Derek DE 6’4″ 248 Youngstown St. 5.5
20(84) Buccaneers Godwin, Chris WR 6’1″ 209 Penn St. 5.7
21(85) Patriots (From Lions) Garcia, Antonio OT 6’6″ 302 Troy 5.7
22(86) Chiefs (From Vikings through Dolphins) Hunt, Kareem RB 5’10” 216 Toledo 5.5
23(87) Giants Webb, Davis QB 6’5″ 229 California 5.4
24(88) Raiders Vanderdoes, Eddie DT 6’3″ 305 UCLA 5.6
25(89) Texans Foreman, D’Onta RB 6’0″ 233 Texas 5.7
26(90) Seahawks Griffin, Shaquill DB 6’0″ 194 Central Florida 5.6
27(91) Rams (From Bills through Chiefs) Johnson, John S 6’0″ 208 Boston College 5.7
28(92) Cowboys Lewis, Jourdan CB 5’10” 188 Michigan 5.6
29(93) Packers Adams, Montravius DT 6’4″ 304 Auburn 5.6
30(94) Steelers Sutton, Cameron CB 5’11” 188 Tennessee 5.6
31(95) Seahawks (From Falcons) Hill, Delano SS 6’1″ 216 Michigan 5.4
32(96) Lions (From Patriots) Golladay, Kenny WR 6’4″ 218 Northern Illinois 5.5
33(97) Dolphins (Compensatory Selection) Tankersley, Cordrea CB 6’1″ 199 Clemson 5.7
34(98) Cardinals (Compensatory Selection – From Panthers) Williams, Chad WR 6’1″ 204 Grambling St. 5.0
35(99) Eagles (Compensatory Selection – From Ravens) Douglas, Rasul CB 6’2″ 209 West Virginia 5.8
Douglas has grown on me so I’d rather have him + Jernigan over anyone we missed out on.
Joe, Rasul, or both? (Both for me)
both for me too
Looks they could have rebuilt the whole roster for just one guy.
I think Jernigan might edge out the cost of having some of those rookies if he stays here. He has top 10 DT potential here and unfortunately will cost like one as well. He turns 25 by the start of the season so he’s only a few years older than some rookies but much more proven.
Still got a rookie from the deal, Douglas.
Any of those players would have cost Jernigan AND Douglas. I’m willing to go out on a limb and call it a good deal.
Amazing how many reaches there were in between 74 and 99.
As I predicted, Brandon Graham isn’t holding out. That was fake news from the jump.
You don’t get to make “predictions” when you have an inside source working in the Eagles organization. That is cheating.
Brandon Graham saw what happened to Evan Mathis and had second thoughts – from anonymous sources
Greg Cosell compared Mack Hollins to a bigger Torrey Smith
The Ravens Torrey Smith, or the 49ers Torrey Smith?
Ravens. He and Fran Duffy were pleased with the pick
I know some of you are 4 for 4 folks, but this lottery for the Sixers needs to work out right.
Cheating ass NBA keeping the Lakes in the top 3.
Disappointing but at least that Kings swap worked out from the Stauskas deal. Regardless of whether Stauskas ever turns into anything or not at least we can claim we got value out of it.
If Fultz/Ball go 1-2 as expected then we get our pick of the rest instead of hoping who we want makes it to 5.
The Lakers pick needs to be top 3 next year or the Sixers were cheated.
And officially “hell no” on taking thug felon Jackson at 3.
We still have the Kings unprotected ’19 pick too