The CB Mystery
Posted: May 25th, 2017 | Author: Tommy Lawlor | Filed under: Philadelphia Eagles | 77 Comments »
The Eagles had a good offseason. Maybe a veyr good offseason. Time will tell on that. You can look at the roster and make a solid argument that the team is better at every position group than last year with one exception.
CB.
You can make the argument the Eagles are better at corner, but there is a lot of hope that goes into that thinking. Right now there is a lot of mystery as to how things will shake out.
Sidney Jones and Rasul Douglas could form a dynamic duo for the next 5 years, but we’re not sure what will happen in 2017. Doug Pederson said Jalen Mills and Patrick Robinson are the starters for now. Ron Brooks is the projected slot corner. The Eagles would love Douglas to win a starting job, but since he’s a 3rd round rookie it isn’t fair to pencil him into the lineup. You need to see him in action first.
Mills only started twice last year, but played extensively. He finished 5th on the team in tackles, so that should give you an idea of how much he was on the field. Mills was inconsistent. He would show a lot of promise on one play and then a lot of issues on the next. The coaches loved his confidence and the way he attacked things. Mills wasn’t afraid to make a mistake.
Mills has a solid combination of size and athleticism, but he’s not special in any way. He is the kind of player who needs smarts and instincts to help him play well. You can see where having a year of experience under his belt will make a big difference for him. That isn’t to say he will suddenly turn into Troy Vincent this year, but he will have a better understanding of the Eagles scheme and what offenses are doing so he should play at a higher level. The Eagles just need him to be an effective starter.
Robinson has been a good starter. He’s also struggled at times, both with his performance and with staying healthy. Robinson has started 49 games in his career, including 6 last season. He is physically gifted (former 1st round pick) and at his best is an aggressive CB who can make plays. The problem is that his confidence becomes an issue at times, causing him to become hesitant.
The Eagles DL will be the best that Robinson has played behind in the NFL. That could make a big difference. Robinson played on some awful Saints defenses. To be fair, he was part of the problem. But they were awful in terms of coaching and talent. Playing with more talent and in a more stable environment could help to bring out the best in Robinson.
Mills and Robinson could be effective starters. But there is risk. One is a late round pick and the other a career underachiever. That’s not a compelling duo.
If Mills was able to crack the lineup last year, shouldn’t Douglas be able to do that this year? One would hope so. Mills was a 4-year starter at LSU. He faced top competition, in practice and in games. That really helps you to get ready for the NFL. Douglas played at a junior college for 2 years. He was a backup at West Virginia in 2015 and finally became a starter last year. He doesn’t have anything close to the same resume as Mills.
But Douglas is bigger, better and more skilled. Douglas had a terrific showing at the Senior Bowl, where he did face some really good receivers. He fits the Eagles scheme and like Mills, is a confident, aggressive player. It is possible Douglas will push for a starting role.
In an ideal world. the Eagles would probably love Douglas and Mills to start on the outside, with Robinson taking over in the slot, a place where he has played well in the past. Ron Brooks was effective there last year, but Robinson is a better CB than him so you would think the team would prefer Robinson to win that job.
There are others.
Dwayne Gratz started 13 games back in 2014 so he has some experience. Gratz is a good athlete and would love to show he belongs on the field. The Eagles aren’t counting on anything from him, but would love to see Gratz play well and win a roster spot, if not push for playing time.
C.J. Smith surprised me with how well he played last summer. He won a roster spot, but didn’t get onto the field much at all. Aaron Grymes had a good summer, but got hurt late and that ruined his season. He might have gotten some playing time if not for the injury. Grymes could be a player to watch this summer. If he can build on what he did last year, Grymes could challenge for a role. Mitchell White is here to compete. He’s been around the league a few years, but most of his experience came from the CFL.
UDFAs Randall Goforth and Jomal Wiltz want to shock people and steal jobs. None of us thought C.J. Smith was going to make it last year. You never know how a player is going to respond to the pro environment. It brings out the best in some guys.
In some ways, CB feels like WR did last summer. Before you get too depressed, hear me out. There are a mixture of young players and low-budget veterans. Remember how the Eagles signed Reuben Randle, Chris Givens and T.J. Graham? None of those guys impressed us at all. That could happen again this year with Robinson, Gratz, Grymes and White. But there is a difference.
The WRs were dealing with Frank Reich and Greg Lewis. The DBs will be dealing with Jim Schwartz and Cory Undlin, a pair of proven coaches who are also very demanding. Lewis tried to be Mr. Nice Guy with his players last year and it didn’t work. Schwartz and Undlin don’t know who Mr. Nice Guy is. They’ll be hard on the DBs as long as they can.
The results might still be the same.
They might. But there won’t be a lack of effort in trying to get Robinson, Gratz and the others to play their best.
I also think having a good pass rush is going to help this year’s CBs. A good pass rush can make a world of difference for DBs. There is no equivalent factor for WRs. Good QB play certainly helps, but at the end of the day, the WR still has to get open and catch the ball. As Mills proved last year, a pass rusher can hit the QB as he throws, causing the ball to miss an open receiver by a few yards and the closest CB can still take credit for that.
Robinson, Mills and Douglas are going to be huge factors in getting this to be an effective secondary in 2017. But so will Jernigan, Cox, Graham, Barnett, Curry and Long. If the pass rush is good enough, that will help the CB mystery to have a happy ending.
_
I’m hoping a better D-Line and them getting to the QB faster will help the secondary.
There is some hope for Mills after seeing many rookie CBs struggle in their rookie years only to be good to very good in year two. Anyway this year’s Eagles CBS would be hard pressed to be worse than last years CBs. Another factor which will help the Eagles defense generally is better offense. That might not effect the CB’s effectiveness specifically except that there will be fewer and more difficult opportunities due to time and field position and the CBs as well as the entire defense could play under less pressure.
If we’re honest we can say that the right side of the Eagles DL did not do its job last year. So if Messers Barnett, Jernigan, and Long can make a difference regardless of which side Graham plays- the Eagles should be messing up some quarterbacks. And that will be the key to success or failure this season (IMHO).
The problem is that there aren’t very many examples of CBs who are as slow as Mills is (his slow 40 time sadly is his game speed) and still productive in the NFL. Especially with his 6’0, 191 pounds frame. He’s a pretty good athlete (agility, jumping etc.), but slow. No other way to put it.
I do like Mills potential as a slot CB. Slot CBs don’t have to be fast, they need to move well and cover well. Mills could do that. But on the outside, the only hope I have is him (and Douglas, who’s slow as sh*t also, but at least he’s much taller and bigger) playing press and the pass rush being there before the other team can hit the bomb. We have two good Safeties, that will help, but Mills and Douglas can’t cover vertical routes on a consistent basis. NFL WRs will be too fast.
Thing is: Pass Rush don’t need to be there all the time. But the opponents have to respect it. Mills/Douglas can play solid football if the other team is scared of our pass rush and just relies on the quick passing game, as the Packers did against us last year, f.e.
Mills plays somewhat slow, but I don’t think Douglas will. 40 times do not always define the true playing speed for a player. Of course we will only really know Douglas’ playing speed once we have seen him against NFL caliber WR’s.
Fair point about Douglas. We’ll see. But according to basically all the scouting reports, speed is the one issue with him (game speed, too). But like I said, at least he has lenght and weight. Brandon Browner was part of one (actually, one could argue two…) of the best Secondaries in the last 10 years. He ran a 4.63 and pretty much played like that. But he’s 6’4/221 pounds. He had other strenghts and other ways to cover.
I don’t think Douglas will be a true #1 CB in the NFL. We’ll see if I’m wrong, I sure hope so, but I think his speed will always make him that Browner type #2 CB. He could potentially be very good at that, though.
The bright side is, we potentially have a #1 CB of the future in Jones. He sure played like one in College. Let’s hope he gains his full athletism back after the injury.
Good take, I agree that Douglas probably has a ceiling of a good #2 CB, which will be fine if Sydney comes fully back to be a good #1 next year.
People greatly exaggerate Jalen’s lack of soles. He ran a 4.48 at his pro day. He doesn’t possess elite speed, but he is fast enough to play on the outside. Hia game speed should improve this year as he gains experience and confidence.
Regardless of what they clocked him at during his pro day, he plays slow. Receivers that run 4.4 forty yard dashes blow past him. He looks like a high 4.5s guy when he plays.
I think some of his slow play is due to indecisiveness and over thinking. When you play instinually you tend to play faster. That is why I said I believe his game speed will improve this year.
Also Josh Norman and Richard sherman ran slower than Mills. I’m not saying he is either of those players, but he has enough speed to ply on the outside.
I disagree. The times I thought his lack of speed was most apparent were times when he was in a dead sprint chasing after someone. He had already made the decision and knew where he needed to go, so indecision and instincts had no effect. If someone’s running with the ball and you’re sprinting behind them trying to catch them and they are pulling away from you, you’re just not as fast as them.
40-times
Jalen Mills – 4.61
Josh Norman – 4.61
Richard Sherman – 4.56
Those two are outliers by a wide margin. Josh Norman is literally the only modern era CB in NFL history to become a successful starter after running a 40 yard dash in excess of 4.6 seconds. Not saying its certain death for Jalen’s career or that he isn’t perhaps marginally better than his combine time. But, expecting him to succeed with that lack of speed because one other human on the planet has done so, probably isn’t a good bet to make.
I don’t think he’s terrible by the way. He’s a decent player. I just think he’ll always be severely limited and will always need safety help over the top.
Good point about his ProDay. Didn’t know that. So at least his body has sub 4.5 speed in him, so to speak. Sadly, I have to say, the 4.61 at the Combine looked more like his game speed to my eyes last season. But, like you wrote, maybe more experience will help with his game speed.
Mills is at his best while battling bigger WR’s that can typically out muscle assigned corner backs. Mills isn’t the fastest, but no one is going to out man him in coverage. He is at best a #2 CB in this league- I don’t see him as a great fit in the slot, but he’s familiar with the position after manning it during college.
I’m really looking forward to Mills “covering” OBJ, Dez, and Pryor for 6 games this year.
it doesn’t surprise me he has so many tackles, seemed like our corners played like way too cautiously.They played way off. Sure, gift them 8 yard gains uncontested on 3rd and 6, boy did they make those tackles though! A lot of that is the coaches’ call. Which either the coaches know they can’t cover anyone, or schwartz is super timid when it comes to coverage. Leaving those short routes wide open for a clean 3 step drop and dunk in a scheme relying on pass rush was just frustrating.
We had a good DL last year; the problem was a bad secondary. DL will be about the same, and unless one of these new guy longshots steps up, so will the secondary. Remember the D held teams to 9 points a game the first 3 games. Then it seemed that O coordinators realized our secondary was so bad they’d be fine if they could unload the ball fast, thus neutering the pass rush. I don’t know if Reggie White would help much until they get basic competence at CB.
I think both position groups were to blame. We had a good DL on paper last year. In practice, Barwin and Curry underperformed. Graham busted his ass, and Cox got double teamed all over, and no one else was able to take advantage. The CBs weren’t great, especially after Brooks went down, and then everything compounded. The change in what happened to the defense overall correlates pretty nicely to the Brooks injury and all of the resultant shuffling.
With Cox drawing the double team- he (we) needed someone else to step up and become a problem constantly. With everyone under-performing, that didn’t happen. Our second line rotation last year severely damaged our prospect of creating damage when our first d-line grouping needed a break.
Our CB’s played off with Jenkins in the slot, and only 1 reliable safety to cover up mistakes. The line didn’t get there, which exposed the secondary and our lack of defensive depth. All things considered, we didn’t do terribly last year. But this year, things need to improve- drastically.
Reggie White would definitely help. The DL can play better, and if they do this year it will help.
Jenkins moving back to S (from slot CB) is an improvement. I think Jernigan will be an improvement in pass rush from DT. This being the second year in the new scheme will allow for more variety to be installed/better execution of the variety. It’s reasonable to expect Mills to be better in 2nd year, even if you don’t think he’s going to become anything more than adequate.
There are reasons to be optimistic. Not going to be a top 5 defense, certainly. But in the 10-15 range? Especially if the offense can help put pressure on the other team/keep the D fresh.
I can understand “putting the brakes on” unbridled optimism. But I think unbridled pessimism is just as unwarranted.
I am more in line with ChoTime. I think the front seven will be very good, maybe even potentially great, but If the secondary remains weak the Eagles will struggle all season.
I’ll agree to disagree. Webster/Ross/Phillips/Rolle SB with the Giants – isn’t exactly a murders row. That team was all about the DL. Patriots winning with PC in the secondary? I’d imagine the list goes on and on. IMHO, the CB’s won’t be asked to maintain their coverage as long as they did last year. Improvement amongst CB’s will be noted. (praying :)). Point is, a great DL + below avg secondary doesn’t always = a struggle….(it’s a never ending argument with no definitive answer.)
Agreeing to disagree is often a sign of wisdom. I hope you are right and our secondary is going to be better than I think. We’ll probably know after a few games. Sure would be great to be wrong.
The defense wasn’t bad last year. It was ranked #9 in DVOA. It was the offense that was bad.
How do you feel about bridled optimism?
Usually, with my hands.
I think we’ve collectively under-sold the defense last year. Or at least the general vibe is that they were mediocre at best, if not just plain bad.
If you take that stats at face value, we were 13th defense in the league in YPG (not bad), 21st in points per game (not good)
Yet go to a popular advanced metric like adjusted DVOA and the defense ranked #4 in the league. Obviously that’s a huge deviation from the eye test.
How did that happen?
A) Eagles defense had the toughest schedule in the league last year.
B) Early in the season the defense had some excellent performances against some of the best offenses in the league
C) DVOA is an efficiency stat, so even after the offense really started to sputter after the first quarter of the season, the effect it had of the defense was minimized in DVOA compared to traditional cumulative stats. (offense finished #20 DVOA)
D) there weren’t any exceptional defenses last year. It was a down year for defense.
The defense’s paper-thin depth in the secondary got exposed last year, but I think if you are predicting improvement (optimism) on the defense, you should be predicting that we will be a top 10 defense. Not sure we improved in that area, but if we are lucky and the safeties stay healthy and are allowed to play safety all year long, you can expect the secondary to be respectable.
I agree with everything you said, except for the expectation for this year. Like you said, it was a down year for defenses all around. Unless it’s the beginning of a trend (which is certainly very possible), the Eagles’ D could get better and still end up in the 10-15 range. That’s part of what makes the NFL so much fun to follow, IMO.
if Reggie White wouldn’t improve this defense much, our DL must be pretty great!
Just laughable… what a clown
https://twitter.com/EliotShorrParks/status/867744417846874112
I don’t read anything that he puts out- lost respect for him a few years ago.
Far and away, the most important thing that will affect how good a season the Eagles have is the development of Wentz. A distant second is injuries. If CB is the main angst we are having as fans, it should be a good season. Either that, or we should be talking about whether the coaches can do the job.
There’s enough talent on this roster to win games, provided Wentz shows improvement. Any team can be brought down by injuries. It’s time to maximize strengths and minimize weakness, like good teams do.
Good points although injuries run a close second too many times. Sometimes injuries are even the principle reason for a lost season. One NFL team lost NINETEEN starters, eight by October. Their backup players simply couldn’t compensate. Their GM had made too many poor draft choices for a few years as well. Another example, the Vikings, lost all four of their O Line starters and a couple of backups during the year. Also their run game was unreliable, which is part of the reason many knowledgeable people around that team praise Bradford so much for keeping it together.
Injuries are pretty much always the #1 factor in a team’s success. If your starting QB gets injured, you’re pretty much done.
I personally lay a hefty portion of blame on the struggles of the CBs at the feat of the pass rush last year. It was so abysmal.
I thought the latest reports were that Jones could be back on the field by September or October. Are we still working from the assumption that he spends the year on the IR, or that hat he is too far behind learning the system to really push for playing time?
I believe that anybody working from any confident assumption about his timetable is misguided. Period.
The guy who put that report out is a known shill for that agent.
Thanks. I saw it well after the draft, though. What’s the point of doing it then? (Unless maybe I just didn’t see it until after the fact)
No it did get put out after the draft. I’m not sure of the exact intention. Likely just to set positive expectations for his client. Help put a kibosh on some of the “fuck this guy who isn’t going to play at all” narrative.
I’ll still be a amazed if he does play this year. Jumping straight into the NFL after basically a half dozen walk through practices on a leg he won’t completely trust seems insane.
Mills is a lot different than I imagine. For whatever reason, I pictured a run-his-mouth type like DJax. Seems like a good kid.
http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/videos/videos/Press-Pass-Jalen-Mills/c71ebe7e-ac49-46b5-98bf-b47be71bfbb3
Everything I’ve read or watched on Mills leads me to believe he is much more Brandon Graham than D-Jax. He seems genuinely happy-go-lucky and positive on and off the field. The main difference is that he seems brash on the field.
I never saw him that way. I thought he would be more subdued, but his confidence shows through. Probably why coaches love him. I like him because of the hair, but that’s just me.
He replaced his mouth with his fingers.
I know many have talked about trading for Richard Sherman, but this ESPN article on Sherman sheds some light on the narcissistic, TO-persona that Sherman exudes.
Blames losses on coaches/teammates…check
Calls out coaches for play-calling that he does not like…check
Dislikes the star QB and goes out of his way to undermine him…check
Can’t let go of the past…check
Asks for a trade to a contending team…check
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/19446657/seattle-seahawks-cornerback-richard-sherman-let-go-problem-nfl-2017
Never liked him never will. Still think he is going to fall off a cliff early.
The mouthbreathers calling in to WIP only want us to trade for him because they know his name. He’s not a fit for us and we can’t afford him.
Yet there are still many folks who remain convinced that TO was the greatest thing that ever happened to the Eagles. And Desean was a close second. The same folks who somehow think that anybody can play on the offensive line. ;-{
Who do you think are the 2 greatest Eagles recievers of all time ?
I’m not sure a guy that was with the team for 20 months can be considered the best receiver the Eagles ever had. I would consider Mike Quick the best in Eagles history.
TO. Stats over career with Birds prolly say Djack.
I like that answer indeed. Howrver, TO was the best WR we ever had. Not to say he was the greatest eagle .. but i think DJax is also in the top5 best ever for eagles also
I wudve gone back to Harold Carmichael .. but i think he was either way under utilized, misunderstood as a gimmick, or just not as athletic as i would have thought
Sorry, idk how I missed your comment. Are you really looking, and are you available? Remember I’m in Broward County FL.
I am lookng but in nyc at the moment.. i would move .. have cousins in boca .. its nit that far i dont think.. ive been n financials, but need a new challenge
Jeremy Bloom
Sick skier .. investor. Great college career. .chick magnet ..dude is living the dream
Not sure where you’re getting most of that stuff from the ESPN article.
And if you’re talking about the Super Bowl losing play call -yeah, I’d be pissed about that too.
That doesn’t surprise me.
You wouldn’t be upset about losing the Super Bowl on what is uncontroversially the worst play call in post season history?
Or are you not surprised that I don’t look at Sherman’s statements with some sort of vendetta agenda?
If you look into that play call, there’s some pretty weird stuff going on.
That interception was Wilson’s 21st pass of the game. He ended 12-21.
It occurred on 2nd & goal from the 1 yard line (kinda like 2nd & 1).
The interception was made by number 21 on the Patriots defense.
That super bowl took place on Feb 1st or 2/1.
Kinda funny too, as Malcolm Butler was falling onto the ground to secure the ball, the clock ticked 00:21.
Its the Illuminati.
lol, or the football gods have a sense of humor.
…https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8df7a590a4d8a072f391b65352070fbdc36f098744adc560d67ede11ae7efaf8.jpg
Did you read that somewhere or come up with that on your own? Either way, good stuff.
I got most of it from others, but I think you can say we have too much time on our hands for sure 🙂
Cool.
Marshawn Lynch was red hot on that last drive too. All he had to do was punch it in but nah. Put it in the hands of Wilson with a pick play.
Ha! That’s awesome!
While the secondary was underwhelming last season, I remember too many 2nd and 3rd downs when the D Line simply could not stop the run! No matter how the “media” insist that the run game is devalued nowadays, the Eagles defensive Front 7 allowed other teams to run rampant in 2016. Everybody wants sacks, sacks and more sacks, while forgetting the boring tackles-for-loss real work.
If you get the sacks it makes it much harder for those runs to happen. Thats the idea.
The problem was pressuring the QB. Our front 4 failed for long stretches at points last year
The sad part of the WR comment is that while we knew the WRs werent going to be any good they actually dissapointed even our wildest nightmares.
Our thinking this summer about our CBs so far is, “well, its not possible to do worst then last year”.
We are scary bad at CB
Interesting perspective.
Doubt we’ll be worse off than last year, or the year before that, or the year before that.
I’m just glad we have a pair of high draft picks looking towards the future.
Reporter to Blount: are you happy about the changes in the celebration rules?
Blount: what changes?
Reporter: you can do more silly things after scoring.
Blount: …
Does this guy seem silly to anyone? Not me!
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[…] holes on the roster, beyond CB. That is a position where we really don’t know what to expect, as I wrote recently. The Eagles just got a look at players at the OTAs. Maybe they saw something they didn’t like […]